What is the best ramp in commander?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
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I really don't think I play mana dorks in any deck I have right now.
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When I need a mana dork in a deck is when it serves another purpose in the deck itself that a land cannot cover. Examples being my Ivy gleeful spellthief, Hogaak, and Korvold fey cursed king. For my Ivy deck I need creatures to target my spells onto so I may copy them onto Ivy. For Hogaak you can't spend mana to cast him and I use them to convoke so they are just lands in that deck that hogaak can use. And for Korvold its something I can easily sacrifice for value. But one mana dork every green deck should play is Dryad Arbor. There are so many times that this "mana dork" comes in clutch for me. Green sun's zenith on a zero grants you 2 lands and a blocker as early as turn 1. A leyline of abundance makes dryad arbor tap for 2 green mana. Its a creature tutorable land, and a forest tutorable creature and to me is the perfect mana dork. I never make a green deck without it.
I run mana dorks in my creature focused decks, just like I'll sculpt my ramp to fit the deck. Enchantment ramp for enchantment decks, artifact ramp for non-green decks, etc.
I'm running pathbreaker Ibex In my gruul deck so mana dorks turn into serious damage later in the game. They also trigger beast Whisperer type effects so they're essential.
Depends on what it is you need exactly. My old, now powercrept on modern deck (which holds a very special place in my heart since its my *very* first deck, built up from the AVR green white humans and angels precon) could poop out a turn 3 Avacyn angel of hope with any 1 drop dork, a somberwald sage and blessed alliance + two lands. It also had other more reliable ways to do it, but that was the most straight forward one and by far the most threatening. This is something I simply *could not* do with land ramp, and I've tried everything under the sun to make it work. Outside of fast mana, dorks are probably the fastest way to ramp up extremely hard.
the best ramp is whatever lets you get to your commander with mana open for 3 consistently (or a turn early in green), a turn early consistently in 4-5, and a 2 turns earlier beyond that. I am a huge 2 drop ramp lover, even if those rocks come in tapped would sooner play those than 3 rocks or in some cases even 3 ramp spells.
what you play all depends on synergies within the 99 or if those dorks/rocks have utility of course, but you really learn to love and understand why you'd play even a bad 2 drop rock like coldsteel heart over a commander's sphere in a 3 cost commander that could be considered kill on sight when you look down and see that rock prime to use on a snakeskin effect or a 1 mana counterspell to keep them around for a turn cycle.
I think the most important part of choosing whether to utilize mana dorks or land ramp is not the mana cost of your commander, but the mana cost of your game plan in general. If you aim for a win before turn 6, you will probably find a lot of (especially 3+ CMC) land ramp excruciatingly slow and mana dorks are going to serve you well. However, if you aim for a very casual turn 7-9 win and are expecting a long game with lots of boardwipes, spot removal and splashy big spell plays, land ramp is most likely the option for you. Naturally it's also very possible (and often even recommended) to run both, as T2 Nature's Lore into a Birds of Paradise can set you quite far ahead of the rest of the table.
Turn 1 Mana Dork, Turn 2 Null Rod.
Turn two cursed totem is even crazier
The fact null rod is on the reserve list is retarted.
@@thetrinketmage Cursed totem would turn off your own mana dorks instead of turning off the opponent's mana rocks. That is indeed crazier.
Turn 1 sol ring into null rod is crazy
1 black mana, 2 dark ritual, 3 sol ring then cursed totem and null rod ( then go pick a lottery because your very lucky)
Excited to watch the video I love how much content you've been putting out !
I don't run rampant growth in any decks anymore. Having a land come into play tapped isn't worth it. If you're going to have to wait to have access to that manna it's better to have it on a creature that can block. I've stopped fatal damage with boreal druid several times. No basic lands will ever do that...
Boreal Druid will die to anything tho while lands dont. Also rampant growth can fix colors while Boreal does 0 colors
@@GrayVMhan I used boreal as an example of a bad mana dork still being better than rampant growth. Three visits and natures lore are the ones to run. Mana dorks dying isn't a bad thing. They can block and literally save your life. No land can do that without paying mana. Why are you overlooking that being a creature is a good thing?
Well, not all ramp is created equal, all ramp is excelling in one thing. Dorks excel in combat, cards like rampant growth thin your deck, cards like sol ring are immediately available, and cards like dark ritual provide a massive play in a flash. All are the best at one thing and the worst at another. Some are overvalued, and others are not valued enough, it's all perspective and based on the needs of the player.
@@chasewhite2223 Agreed and no one said you have to just run one kind. Play what works for you and your deck
Technically if you play animator (not reanimate) lands can stop lethal
One mana dork I personally love is ornithopter of paradise: literally a second arcane signet! Comes with no attack, and the disadvantages of being a mana dork. But the 2 thoughness makes so that pingers dont have that easy of a choice, comes with flying so its good for global attack triggers (not damage to player unless equipment or anthem present), artifact creature (great for sacrifices/recursion), and can be placed at any color!
I love Ornithopter of Paradise as well, I even include it in my cEDH Winota deck over signet because the flexibility of it being an attack trigger or mana is just that good
Even in my "claw of progres" deck, that really wants small creature ETB... I still dont play mana-dorks, but wood-elves, sad robot and then regular rampant-growth-type spells, since I am sure those lands are gonna stick around. I am already filling the board with a lot of creature => Ppl are more likely to wipe it => I am more likely to lose my mana-dorks.
I would also mention Beanstalk Giant and Greater Tanuki as they can serve as either land ramp early game or chunky creature in the late game
I do think that card is mad underrated!
I don't run a lot of mana dorks, but I like to include at least a Birds of Paradise in my green decks to make my ramp more flexible. It's fragile, but being 1 mana and tapping for any color is good enough to make for it.
Depends on the deck i guess. Theres decks that want to search lands but to the hand, others directly to the field...i guess depends on your Commander. Azusa for example, you want regular ramp
No way, another dreamscape artist enjoyer.
mana dorks are pretty common in creature focussed cEDH decks, which is pretty interesting
Glad you mentioned Wood Elves et al. Land-Ramping and being a creature goes undeniably hard in my Beledros Witherbloom deck that wants to puke lands and sac bodies, plus the ability to reanimate later
I love using those effects in my own Beledros Aristocrats deck! They're super useful!
I have a deck that only plays mana dorks and smothering tithe for mana advantage. Phabine Boss's Confidant (the commander) is the second most expensive card in the deck at 6 mana. Besides that, most the cards in the deck or 3 mana or less removal and utility cards that help me punch hard or draw cards once Phabine is out. Once she is out, mana dorks dont matter because I play enough lands to draw into and for Phabine to trigger off of.
She is my magnum opus of deck building for me
I’ve been thinking of building this commander ! Would you share your list ?
I'm playing a Titania, Voice of Gaia deck right now and elected not to include ANY dorks, although that almost has more to do with Delighted Halfling being ten damn dollars. My Jund decks both make use of Ignoble Hierarch. The only one I want to add in that I don't have in right now is Arbor Elf, but that's because I *am* running the Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth effects, and should really get in a Nissa Who Shakes the World as well, but the deck is currently running planeswalkerless.
Vorinclex / The Grand Evolution has felt amazing thus far. Mine is a big landlord deck missing Greensleeves, Ashaya, Cultivator Colossus right now. Really looking forward to Lumra's release!
In addition to the 1 mana manadorks that tap for 1, there are 3 mana manadorks that tap for 2. Thus you could ramp 1->3->6 and play a 6 drop on turn 3. If you are ramping quickly at midpower, then mana dorks are quite nice.
Example of 9 mana dorks for a simic deck (7 for a mono green deck).
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Fyndhorn Elder
1x Greenweaver Druid
1x Gyre Engineer
1x Palladium Myr
1x Troyan, Gutsy Explorer
No Halfling...whoa auto bad list
@@aklepatzky Ha Ha :) Yeah Delighted Halfling was a bit more $ than the other 1 mana mana dorks so it was not in my deck list. It is definitely another good option.
Not mentioning Llanowar Tribe feels like a sin, especially when mentioning mono green. Added bonus for Circle of Dreams Druid.
Mana dorks are good but niche as you said. I'll play them if creature density is important, or to help with the curve. I also have a couple Selesnya+ decks that are basically white weenie. So I'll play draw engines like Tocasia's Welcome and Welcoming Vampire. They're good there too since they can draw me a card on the ETB.
You raise a lot of these points, but there are a lot of factors, because there are a lot of different ramp options. Mana dorks are often the most efficient and/or most explosive, but are also the most easily exploded... Lol. They are very fragile. Mana rocks are typically great in any non green deck or deck with lots of colors to help bridge that gap, but are the next most fragile. Ritual spells can do the trick as well being explosive, but very temporary. Enchantment ramp when it is a land based aura or not aura based is the next most resilient and can be very helpful. Lands are typically most resilient because land destruction is rarely used in casual games because it is very salt inducing, so land ramp options are often the best, but can be very inefficient or inconsistent if you don't build the deck properly. Getting a basic forest or plains with cards the search for any is a bit of a waste when you need a splash of a different color.
The most important thing to consider is synergy. I want artifacts in artifact heavy decks where I can abuse them and use of my favorite cards, clock of omens. Let me just tap two equipment and untap my sol ring. Landfall and I'm probably using only land ramp. Forget Mana rocks and probably even mana dorks. If I'm in a spell slinger deck, I probably use a mix of permanent ramp and rituals.
Great video idea and there are some new cards for me to possibly pick up. Thanks!
As a golgari Lathril & Tyvar The bellicose, green & Timur Animar player i run the dorks; more mana is always good. However the points you made in this video are much appreciated sir.
I like mana dorks if I’ve got green (or at least Birds of Paradise, Delighted Halfling, Llanowar/Fynd Eld) because I like having a turn one play. You could say that I should “just play enchantment”, but I’d rather have two mana available than “one mana of any color.”
I think it depends on the deck, though. So long as players can consistently get their gameplan going with their deck, it doesn’t matter how they ramp.
I usually tend not to play mana dorks unless they can provide me with additional utility (like gaining life or having an additional rummaging effect). I play cards with Wood Elf types of effect in my mono-white deck because it plays with Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines as the commander, who is famous for doubling ETB triggers.
My favorite ramp card has to be Decadent Dragon//Expensive Taste, which I play in my The Ur-Dragon deck since it only cost 3 mana there (making it by default a 4/4 with flying and trample and thus really good value). I have only cast the Adventure side once, since I mainly play it as a creature that creates treasure tokens whenever I attack with it (it having Flying and thus being really hard to block also helps here).
And if you're excluding Dockside Extortionist from the discussion you should also exclude Smothering Tithe.
I think its worth mentioning mana dorks are good in a lot of aristocrat decks, especially with cards like Skullclamp, Dark Prophecy, etc mana dorks can often be used as fodder, lessening the feel bad top decks in the late game when they can be sacrificed for value, although the same can be said for wood elf effects. Great Video The Trinket Mage
also ramp spells remove land from the library, so the next draw are more likely to draw something more useful
Sadly in commander the value from deck thinning is overall pretty low and basically negligible
@@thetrinketmage I know, but I always end drawing a lot of lands. I like to think deck thinning in commander helps me to avoid that situation
@@giocanz5222 Deck thinning in commander has negligible effect unless it is Collective Voyage where everyone chips in and you ramp something like 8+ lands. You have to ramp massively for it to have a noticeable effect.
@@thetrinketmage I agree that deck thinning is often negligible in most decks, but if self mill or graveyard as a hand are relevant portions of your game plan, running capenna fetches or Sakura Tribe Elder are amazing. The fact that you didn't mention good boy Steve breaks my heart.
Ultimately for me it’s deck specific. I will say that most of the decks I run mana dorks I’m also running some of the wood elves and cards like it. I’ll mention my Prossh and Karametra decks for they just wanna get the commander out as fast as possible.
Dorks do works extra well in Karametra
I love my boy Bronze Walrus. 3 mana artifact creature, scry on etb and taps for any color
Pros of mana dorks: Early ramp
Cons of mana dorks: If they wipe your board you will have less lands to do your plays compared to land/artifact plays
Ramping into lands is better but I tend to try to include a few more 1 drops in my decks so usually at least one mana dork will make the cut
It generally comes down to the value you get. Ritual effects are generally less efficent than regular ramp, but if it allows your deck to start running even one turn faster it outweighs that "inefficent" early play.
Where I'd like to play in EDH is with the creatures that ramp you, like you mentioned, however you're usually waiting too long and spending too much mana for what you get. As a result I'll usually stick to land-ramp by default.
That said I made a Goreclaw deck, and getting my commander out turn 3 makes a big difference over then 4. Anything three-mana is too much, so I have a few 2-mana sorceries, land enchantments, and mana dorks all together. Bonus points to the ones that tap for two mana if you have a big creature.
Turn 1 mana dork, turn 2 Hullbreacher and wow your game ends there 👁️
Great video comparing dorks to ramp spells
I have this same approach to all my decks but one. I play a Jadzi deck where i want to play her reverse side asap, as such i want to have as many lands in hand as possible. So mana dorks and land auras are a big boon early as they allow my commander sorcery to have the biggest payoff
Korvold finds elves more delicious than forests
that dreamscape artist seems like it'd do work in a dimir reanimator deck
It’s really good in a lot of decks!
Invasion of Segovia is my favourite ramp spell in talrand
It is always deck specific, but mana dorks are one of the fastest ramp options, at the cost of being the least resilient. If you are ramping to 6-8 mana, then mana dorks are rather nice (especially 3 mana ramp 2 mana dorks).
On the other hand Wood Elves vs Cultivate are better fit for higher mana curves. Which one is better depends on how well you can use the body. Are you buffing your creatures? A +1/+1 counter deck could buff the Wood Elves, but a Dragon deck probably has little use for the 1/1 blocker.
Both in conjunction with each other.
2 lands + BoP = turn 2 Cultivate/Kodama
im still deciding whether i should run a dork package over a natures lore package in my Kaseto snake tribal deck.
I thought I was pretty happy with how the deck was doing, but I kinda want to make it more aggro-ish without going all in on voltron (which is probably the more competitive plan)
I want to like mana dorks but my pod plays allot of "deal one damage to each creature" for enrage and anti small tokens etc.
So notmally go for rocks and land search. Though i have underrated the etb landnsearch creatures.
My primary green decks take the form of Henzie and Kaust, neither of which play mana dorks, but instead opt for different approaches to the ramp game. In Kaust, since the curve of the deck is so tight (Kaust on turn 2, face-down creature on turn 3) I don't really find myself ramping all that often, and am generally dissatisfied by the results of dedicating cards to ramp instead of the sorts of support a morph strategy needs. Since Kaust is cheating the morph cost anyway, generating mana advantage isn't as important to that deck as getting on the board on its curve. In my Henzie deck, it's extremely centered around board control, and even runs seven or so board wipes - therefore, I don't like using mana dorks in there despite having a three mana commander since it's not just that they're likely to die, I'm likely to kill them while trying to deal with something else. In Henzie specifically, though, you get the option of running 4 and 5-mana Wood Elves style effects in cards like Primeval Herald, Seedguide Ash, and Rampant Rejuvenator, too, so the ramp suite mostly just begins later. I like your note about the blinkability of Wood Elves cards, I never really considered that. Great vid!
Speaking of Animar, it definitely profits from Myr mana dorks since they are colorless. As long as you have a single +1/+1 counter on Animar, a Myr dork is as cheap as the average Elf dork (for more colored mana options as well), and they basically become free after that, which I find insanely great
My kosei deck has fyndhorn elves, elvish mystic AND llanowar. He really wants to be out turn 2 so its kinda vital.
Hey I was wondering about how make decks differnet when you conciously want to build around specific commanders ? Like I want to build a xenagos deck because I have a signed copy, but I want it to play different all of the other Xenagos decks, while using Xenagos rather than any other Gruul commander.
Well if you want to do something different you can do Xenagos burn, using Ojer Axonil and other effects to deal damage to creatures. You can also use "fight target creature" or "deal damage to target creature equal to power" while having Repercussion on the battlefield. Using combat tricks like berserk and there is a red card like berserk but its not coming to mind, and bedlam to make it so no creatures can block. Then toss some infect creatures in there for good measure. I might build that myself actually.
Settle the wreckage is one of the best ramps in token deck ;)
my favorite non-green dork is Sisters of the Flame to get Silvar out turn 4 and then he can eat them later 😊
Kinnan players are clutching their pearls at this dork hate. I also think effects like burgeoning and land tax are worth noting as well.
i played so many mana dorks in my first 3 decks xD pretty sure i have a set of all one mana dorks
I see lanowar elves as a better moss diamond card. in my playgroups it's always better to have a creature that can block than a tapped artifact. it also allows us to have more varied artifact selection.
mana dorks like elf mystic in an elf tribal deck kinda need to have some sort of reason to die like sac outlet or death trigger because your in green you'll have enough lands eventually so a 1/1 won't help much unless it has utility past it's one green.
I would argue that because no one runs lightning bolt cards in commander, the only thing standing in the way of a Birds of paradise is a wrath
What about the other examples like Niv or mayhem devils. You don’t see any ping effects in your games?
@@thetrinketmage Niv and Mayhem arent staples like boardwipes are. They're for specific decks.
@@Garl_Vinland right but I am not talking about those cards in particular, just the fact that things deal damage in increments of one here and there commonly
mana dorks plus skull clamp for when they become obsolete
wow im a fucking genius🙀
Its weird cause in my willowdusk deck i run dorks that can make a lot of mana at once. (for example: selvala or acomplished alchemist)
I think of it just as even/odd for commander cost (assuming I benefit from getting it out early). 3 mana definitely want dorks, if it's 5 mana and I'm in green probably want dorks into cultivate. If its 4 I want a density of 2 mana ramp only. If its 2 then no ramp
Your curve defiantly plays a part
For 5 mana, maybe the 3 mana mana dorks that tap for 2 mana. Similar to Overgrowth and Worn Powerstone but on a body like Palladium Myr
@Ent229 assuming we're hitting our land drops (which you want to be doing or the ramp is in vain) you wouldn't need it as it would give us 6 mana, but definitely something worth considering for the even more expensive commanders
@@ZaxploitationFilms Thank you. That was an off by 1 error. So the 3 mana mana dorks help the 6 mana commanders. (Then it is the 4 mana tap for 2 mana rocks or Explosive Vegetation for the 7 mana commanders).
(or significant spells, it is not always the commander we are ramping to. A 6-7 mana Dragon deck for example)
@Ent229 Yeah exactly. I think most of the decks I've built/played want the commander out early but yes there's certainly other things to ramp for
all of the myr that tap for colors are p good
In an artifact deck they can be decent!
@@thetrinketmage in mono colored decks that aren’t green. for example K’rrik + leaden myr. it’s like an arcane signet
man i hate dockside if only because its freaking almost 100$
My Urtet Myr deck is great fun that always is ramping at high speeds due to my lil robots
i play dorks in my mothman over other ramp due to the 1/1
kami of whispered hope go brrrrrr
saying a 3 mana 1/1 that ramps 1 is better than a 1 mana 1/1 that ramps one is a little wild to me. Unless your curve is super high, id rather do something actionable with my 3 mana. same reason manalith sees no play, its just too slow. you also want a much higher land count if you're running wood elves effects or you're liable to miss land drops, thus undoing all of the progress you've made. I would argue those slower effects should be the niche ones, only suitable for 5+ mana value commander, and really then it should be 6+ (since youll end up with 4 on turn 3 if you ramp turn 2, then 6 on 4 if you use them again.
ironically, the two effects pair well together, since ramping on 3 mana really wants to be played on turn 2 for maximum effect.
if you want your decks to be stronger and have more of an impact in games, going t1 land t2 land t3 land wood elves is very bad. The deck with dorks is going t1 dork t2 commander t3 untapping with commander and getting huge advantages on you
it depends on the speed of the deck for me. also the color intensity of it. if you play a deck that plans to go for a win turn 4 or 5 mana dorks are fine. most likely you won't be board wiped before you go for your win. and i know this sounds cedh. and partially it is, but some of us that like to play in high power tables as well mana dorks are the one thing that makes green busted, if for instance you play group has soft banned fast mana.
also you might benefit in other ways from mana dorks. for example you play kinnan. in kinnan the land ramp sucks. all if you want something less powerful the creature count matters, for instance in voja or even better jetmir. in this decks even if they don't attack they add power to your board. or you are in a black deck where they can be sacced.
there are mana dorks that can tap for multiple mana in the right set up. for instance bloom tender or marwin and similar effects. those cards are a risky bunch. they deserve of your opponents single target removal however if you manage to tap them they can propel you a lot further into the game.
you asked about not green creature ramp. i have some which are strategy specific that have the added bonus that can be both ramp part of the engine and even combo pieces depending on the deck. pitless plunderer is a famous uncommon from the original ixalan set. when another creature you control dies you create a treasure. there is a an eldrazi that does the same creating eldrazi spawns. a more narrow one is is crystaline crawler. a card that i might say that is slept on. it enters the battlefield with as many counters as the colors of mana that where spend to cast it. you can tap it to add a +1/+1 counter on it. you can remove a +1/+1 counter from it to add a mana of any color. the card can do so much. from color fixing the same turn it comes down to give you 4 extra mana turn or tapping out to ramp and still keeping open mana for interaction. and those are the things it can do by itself. if you play the card in a halana and alena deck or a deck that similarly runs effects that can consistently add counters to a creature with an on board effect you have an amazing ramp piece which also creates a tension between ramping and playing more spells and developing your board and adding those counters to a creature you are willing to send to battle to kill someone.
I strongly disagree on Wood Elves being better than mana dorks, there is a big difference between 1 and 3 mana. Bloom Tender is also a very strong mana dork that deserves a mention. Artifact ramp, such as Arcane Signet/Fellwar Stone, is also very strong. Artifact ramp is usually faster than land ramp. Artifact ramp is easier to cast, notably being able to be cast off a Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or Ancient Tomb. And in a 3 to 5 color green deck, I don't want to run basics to enable most land ramp.
Well I’m not trying to compare it to artifact ramp. Obviously mana crypt is better than wood elves. But that’s also very reductive. If I am comparing cards for a lower power level and lower price point then we have an actually argument. And in a format where the speed is less relevant I still think dorks are worse
T1 trinket mage, profit. Clearly the BEST dork.
Depends. Do you run a bunch of tutors into a combo win? Or do you battlecruiser combat damage 2/10 power level?
I’m not sure if rampant growth vs a mana dork plays into if you are a combo deck or not
Wipes kill dorks. Decent metas play wipes. Combo goes off before you lose your dorks. Lands stick around the whole game (usually). The slower your meta the worse dorks are compared to land ramp. But the faster your meta, the better dorks are. Cedh doesn't even play nature's lore and three visits, but some decks play the whole suite of dorks. The debate over which is better definitely has to include the power level of your playgroup@@thetrinketmage
Play more MLD to force green to diversity its ramp.
Land ramp has no deck building cost or risk like the other forms of ramp.
inb4 this channel blows up
You don’t have to guess. There are a hole bunch of people playing but trying to win (in deck building and play). There are even tournaments. There is data from the tournaments.
You can play worse options to intentionally power down your decks or whatever you all are going 🤷♂️ the “non cedh edh power level this or that” never made any sense to me. Looks like playing make believe w friends but I honestly don’t know. But we do know the answer to your question in this video. It’s dorks. Fast mana aside;
Dorks > 2 mana rocks > land ramp
A good video would be dorks vs rituals. I think there is an actual conversation to be had there.
Manimar
Untapping creatures is easiest.
Both
Signed: my cEDH Aesi
Ban Dockside: I want people to work harder so I can see cooler things happen.
Agreed! I’m not a fan of the card
What did the mighty Dockside Chef ever do to you! /s
@@Datawraith-qo7gn oh no personally. I just want people to suffer and work harder for their treasures
Mana dorks if they synergize with your deck. Otherwise they are too slow and die too easy. Except Birds of Paradise.
Oh yeah birds has ward 2
@@aklepatzky lol, no, I meant they aren’t as slow as the 2 drops
@@Bloody-Butterfly i was just being sarcastic
Are they a good thing? Yes... and no. Lol
Something else to consider that I never see people talking about:
Ramp that fetches lands from your library reduces your odds of drawing lands and making future land drops.
It also thins your library down, avoiding land flooding when you don't need it (because you've already ramped).
This should be considered when looking at how many lands need to be in the deck.
35 lands and 15 spells pulling them out will feel quite different to 35 lands and 15 non-land permanents that help to generate mana.