Von & Howard Hanshaw: "We preached the Gospel to thousands, and then we realized it was mythology."
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- C/W + T/W: Childhood abuse, rape
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Today I spoke with Von Hanshaw and Howard Hanshaw, brothers who were pastors, evangelists, authors, and involved in many ministries before they investigated the claims and origins of Christianity and the Bible in depth, and eventually deconverted.
After talking through their background and introduction to ministry, we discussed:
• The heavy influence of Jimmy Swaggart in their lives, due to their ignorance and the emotionalism of that branch of Christianity.
• Feeling the call early in life to a preaching ministry.
• The way that the church uses fear tactics to keep people in the cult of Christianity.
• Realizing that Christianity was a lie, and that despite being sincere, Christians are sincerely wrong in proclaiming the Bible and Christianity as true.
• Grieving the loss of time lost to Christianity, and dealing with the shame of preaching Jesus and the Bible during our time in the cult.
• The way brainwashing into Christianity includes trauma bonding and Stockholm syndrome toward the psychopathic Yahweh character.
• The unfairness of the exclusivity of the Christian gospel, in light of most people on the planet never ever even hearing about Jesus.
• Realizing when you're not alone in your skepticism, and that there are actually many other who are also seriously examining the claims of Christianity.
• The ways Christians hope everyone else will question their own worldviews, but Christians won't seriously question their own because they "know" they alone have the truth.
• The ways that the characters of Christianity are based on characters in older mythologies.
• The fact that the Bible is fallible, errant, and was heavily influenced by religious and political leaders, and by scribes.
• The fact that Christianity is a blood magic death cult focused on human sacrifice and scapegoating.
• The ways that Christians treat those who deconvert as traitors, and respond with attacks or shunning.
• How the Christian teaching on scapegoating through Jesus is just a form of not dealing with personal responsibility.
Thanks to Von and Howard for sharing their amazing story!
**Also, my apologies for messing up their last name at the beginning of the interview.
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Von's YT channel
/ @vonhanshaw
Von's book "Why I Divorced Christianity" on Amazon:
www.amazon.com/Why-Divorced-C...
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Your support for my channel, Harmonic Atheist, is very appreciated.
/ harmonicatheist
The more support I receive, the sooner I can do this full time!
--Tim
The way they spoke about their mother broke me because, I had my first child on the church (Fumdamental Baptist Christian Church) and raised my kids there for 18 years, 3 moths ago I left the cult, and my husband and kids still go to church, but I feel like a horrible mother, because now my kids think that I'm evil for leaving, or in sin. I hope they one day understand why I left, and that they get have their aha moment as well. I feel so identified with the lost of identity, I separated from my worldy family because of my religion, and now I dont have friends or have much relationship with family. My life was the church and my "family was the church" 💔 it just sucks
Annie, keep your head up I left religion about 4 years ago and never have regretted it. I don't know if they will ever understand. My family doesn't but that's their problem. I truly believe that one has to be seeking truth and in those places it's hard to find you must come out. I don't even try to explain anymore because ppl just can't comprehend it. It is lonely sometimes because you feel by yourself but it's so liberating at the same time. Live your life and be happy My sister.
@@ladybugblu60 Thank you, I don't regret it either, but I'm feeling lonely as you said. Hope everything is well with you! 😊
If you live anywhere near Grenada Mississippi, I would love to connect with you! I married a southern Baptist not realizing the extent of what that meant. I’m feeling lonely here too. Kristi Goff
I've said many times since my deconversion after 40 years as a Christian- its the most courageous thing I've ever done. People don't understand what it takes to continue to live among family and friends who knew you as a Christian for decades.
Choosing to face reality is courageous- many are unable to do so and need the false comfort of the idea of God/Jesus/heaven etc.
Brave and sincere people, good channel.
I was an evangelical christian for about 30 years, and left after many years of growing doubt.
It is very uncommon here in The Netherlands (a rather secular country anyway) to leave your faith at middle-age, therefore very few people can relate to this, a somewhat lonely experience at times.
Lonely Elites we are. We have the gift of understanding and hearing with our hearts. Honesty is a lonely word. Brother, we are One. Mercy for those pitiful ministers who cannot come out for fear of losing their retirement benefits. The fear of the Almighty (dollar$) is the beginning of wisdom 🙈
@@felicededuyo7999 excellent point
Return to LORD God Christ Jesus.
Even though I've been an Atheist for 20 years, it's always comforting to meet former Christian ministers like I was, who were even more committed and steeped in the faith than I ever was. It gives me hope that anyone can find their way to logic and reason and discard nonsensical myths.
Tony Kibe, They aren’t children of God. They don’t have Jesus living inside them by the power of the Holy Spirit. If they did? They committing the sin unto death. God will get tired of them besmirching Him and kill them to bring them home to Heaven.
@@sheldonpashby5500 That's a bunch of bullshit.
@@sheldonpashby5500 so god is a homicidal maniac. I already knew that, but I like to see its stooges gloat about it.
@@scambammer6102 Homicidal maniac? How?
@@sheldonpashby5500 YOU SAID "God will get tired of them besmirching Him and kill them"
Hanshaw brothers...thanks for your honesty. I grew up Catholic and wondered a long time why there was a human sacrifice in the Bible just like ancient human sacrifices in "primitive religions".
You're welcome.
I was in the video and I want to take the time to thank Tim Mills here for taking time out to give an awesome interview. My only desire for this video is that it helps open the eyes of Christians today that are still brainwashed and still believe in that mythological god. I’m a very open guy that is still searching but I do know that Christianity as a religion is not a Christ like religion but rather a cult. Have a great day guys..
Thank you for doing this. Coming out of this indoctrination has been so gutting. Currently, i feel as i know nothing about anything...yet i have more peace inside than ever.
i have a German shepherd also...Leo, he is our pride and joy(:
Thanks, Howard!
Wonderful interview!
Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for having the courage and bravery to share your harrowing childhood story of abuse at the hands of your father... and then sharing your journey of real truth out of the propaganda of religion. Sending you and your family much love from Australia. ❤🌏🇦🇺
In some respects I'm sorta grateful that you were in a situation where you were spreading lies. My mom had a very similar childhood to your own and she's still on the indoctrination train. Hearing your story has given me some new perspective on how to relate to her experience.
Thank you for talking about it.
Just reading the Bible turned me into an atheist. Talking Serpents , Voices from heaven, Pillars of fire, etc , etc etc.
Agreed! It should have done the same to me a long time ago too.
These are metaphors
@@suzannethompson9261 it seems it all is...
@@suzannethompson9261 The type of metaphor a writer uses is part of the message -- unless they're bad writers.
"Why does God really like blood so much?" Haha, such a good question... in the modern era we understand it as symbolism, but to the ancient texts this is a very real question.
Hi. Lemme guess...... God likes Bloody Marys🍷❓😬
So enjoyed. I can relate so much with you all as I was raised a j.w. and preached and was judgmental and so thought I had the truth. Yes the Bible is all mythology. I got out by reading the Bible for myself without the rose tinted glasses on - critically. It took me a while but my parents shunned me for 20 years for leaving their religion. Thank you guys for helping people wake up 😘😘😘
Thank you. We are honored to share our journey.
Turn to LORD God Christ Jesus.
There is no justice system in the world where the innocent pays for wrongs of the perpetrator. Yet the innocent Jesus died to pay for the sins of the guilty. No one would accept a justice system that operates like this.
Yes, it’s a very foreign concept. The thing is, if you grow up in the church you are told over and over again you can’t earn heaven by merit. They say it with such confidence and they almost scoff at the idea. It’s very persuasive. So inevitably you are more likely to accept the idea that “Jesus died for my sins”.
@@jonnyw82 It's a nice way to elude personal responsibility, too. Which may be why so many really devout hard-core Christians seem to turn out to live double lives.
This is probably one of the best deconstruction videos I've ever seen. I was a Believer for 20 years and I'm going through the same deconstruction process. As a matter of fact, after about a year-and-a-half to two years into Christianity I started having doubts about one thing or another and then once you start pulling on that thread next thing you know there's nothing left. And forget about putting it all back together. I feel like I'm also going through a morning process. I believe this so full heartedly that it was the foundation of everything I came to understand about myself and the world around me. Maybe the Bible is right, about being in darkness once you leave God, because I seem very depressed and don't know where to go from here. I agree with the sentiment that we should have a community to get together and heal from these traumas of having a narcissistic invisible father who was always watching the guilt and the shame I feel like will never go away. And don't even begin to ask me about the fear, I have this overwhelming sense of fear and anxiety throughout my entire body because of the fear of hell. And even though I've completely deconstructed everything through theology, hermeneutics, the historicity, there's the underlying fear that seems to penetrate me and all areas of things. It probably goes back to when I was at Christian summer camp at a Baptist summer camp and like the second or third night there we had a huge bonfire and the camp counselors told us 11 10 12 year old kids but if we didn't believe in Jesus we were going to burn in a huge bonfire just like that. That image burned into a 10 11 12 year old kids mind is very disturbing and I don't know how to heal from that even though I don't believe it anymore.
One of the biggest questions that cant be explained is how did 8 people after the Noah flood become over 75 people at the tower of babel 100 years later? The women couldnt do anything but make babies. Then 900 years later in Egypt, the Moses story had over 2 million people in just egypt. He lead 600,000 men with their families out of Egypt.
Feel free to reach out if you need to talk to someone. I’ve been questioning for about 5 years and it has been a lonely process but I’ve gathered so many tools from neuroscience, coaching modalities, and perspective that has been so exciting. I feel so free to fully live, love, and help others thrive in this life! Anyway just want to give you hope that there are so many people leaving old ideas not to live in a void (although it can feel like that for a bit) but to finally find their purpose in creating a better world 🌎 ❤🌎
Hi. Just try looking at the other side of the coin.
Ask the question........ What if Adam and Eve did NOT eat from the forbidden tree⁉️
Survey says........ Logically speaking Adam and Eve would have continued on in the garden into eternity with God, everything being A-OK‼️😬
And what would have been bad about that⁉️
God❓Got a good answer for that good question❓God❓God❓.......................
Maybe God is being evasive here because he realizes that he forced Adam and Eve into eating from the tree, ummm, against their free will, thereby setting in motion this whole screwed up idea of saving Adam and Eve and some of humanity in a place called heaven........ eventually he'll get around to it‼️😨😨😨
Well, one way to look at darkness is this: everything alive, and all matter, comes from darkness. So how is darkness bad? It's actually the womb of life, the mystery, the gentle power that's the matrix of creation. I wonder why are we taught to fight and shun it?
And I'd say from my own experience that probably that fear, like many of our strong emotions, is locked in your body: there are ways to release it.I hope you find the way that works for you.
I understand what you are saying. Being a christian was my life and family. Now its all gone, mentally. I am still left with some fear of maybe I'm being deceived. Those cult fathers were good; they knew how to keep the followers. Slowly I will get out of the church. Maybe I can influence some of there children; I'm a sunday school teacher.
Ironically, some of the clearest human enlightenments arise from long slumbers in ignorance.
These interviews are so precious, gives me confidence that I made a right choice leaving religion that made me think I’m special than others. It’s a surprise I actually didn’t know what that book I was believing really was! Thank you for the information, experience, and life story.
Thank 'God' for you guys! I wish there were millions more of you-----our world would be a much healthier and safer pace!. Keep up the great work of Liberation!
This was a great interview! i cried, laughed and had several confirming "ah ha" moments. You three are very brave and i can sense the genuine love you have for people. Thank you.
Thank you.
That means a lot to me, ww hope this helps a lot of people coming out of the other side of Christianity.
@@hdhanshaw1371Never, ever thought i'd be here man. i was ready to die for Jesus and tried to live only for his glory. Everything good was from him and all the rubbish was my fault. i feel so free from that way of thinking now but what Von said about purpose and feeling lost really hit home. This is quite a process.
@@ksteed1167 I’m in the same boat, I go day to day seeking the truth has an animist but I still feel lost like I’m trying to find my purpose. I totally agree man!
@@faurioan5265 so you get a good laugh off of my pain is good!! The sad part is that god you are mocking right now does not exist!! Say all you want to about me or my brother but when you wake up and see the truth Faur, I really hope your god is there to help you!! But guess what it’s all a big lie! Have a good one 😂 😂😂😂😂
Amazing interview. It's really interesting hearing people so fresh out of the cult... And so encouraging to see so many people jumping ship. . Having today's resources is incredible. When I got out in 1992, 4 years after graduating from Bible college, there was nothing...a wasteland. On my own,..... lost all my Christian friends. Had to do a major life reset. Thankfully I had an ex-minister psychotherapist ex-father-in-law to chat with occasionally on the phone with when I got stuck.. Went to a Unity church for about a year. Read the other religious texts and a lot of spirituality type books. Joseph Campbells The Power of Myth was huge in helping shift my understanding of religion and spirituality. It has been so encouraging and refreshing to hear these stories. Thanks for what you are doing, Tim.
Thank you Bill.
I had a similar experience coming out of Mormonism.
@@faithlessfather I was shocked to see that people I had thought truly cared about me were so quick to shun and demonize me. What an eye opener.
Bill I believe there are more of us now than there are of them it’s just people are in the closet just my thought.
Joseph Campbell!! I can hear his voice in my head.
Thanks for reminding me.
It is sad that the brother with MS back slid into calling out to jesus out of fear and chose to publicly follow him again. Fear is powerful thing. 😢 That was over 2 yrs ago.
Tim, that had to be the most brilliant summation of the New Testament I've ever heard that you did near the end. And these two guys are wonderful. The Satan in heaven question was mind blowing.
Thank you Patrick!
Patrick thank you, and that question confirmed my day of leaving the faith for good.
Thank you, Patrick!
Realizing that the doctrine of the vicarious atonement of Christ amounted to a belief in human sacrifice and that the communion ritual amounted to cannibalism, was one of the things that led me out of Christianity. Fortunately, I was able to have those insights when I was a teenager sitting in church. I was a fundamentalist until I was 15, and then I explored other religious ideas in my late teens and early 20s, even polytheism, until finally becoming an atheist at 22.
Man their childhood was fucked up.. 😭 breaks my heart that anyone can be so hateful and cruel to any child.. let alone their own.. wtf is wrong with ppl like that?
Christianity, that's who.
Great video gentlemen! My biggest trouble speaking with Christian's is their lack of scientific, historic, and philosophical understanding. It all boils down to some kind of personal experience or your just hurting by beliefs (persecution) addittude.
Great interview - I can relate so much - thank you all guys 😘😘😘
Great interview of 2 great people whose experience must resonate with many facing the same doubts about Christianity, including me.
Religion:: "How can I get the money from her pocket into mine?" fawns
Cant. Stop. Watching. These.
I'm not a Atheist but a theist and I can't stop watching. -Ex-Christian.
Neither can I, and I just found Tim about a week ago.
"You were never truly saved" is a copout we hear all too often.
I "accepted Jesus into my heart", trusted him for salvation and was baptized at age 12. I spent the next 34 years studying the Bible, praying about everything, sharing my faith with others, trusting god to fight my battles for me and rationalizing in his favor when things went the opposite of how I prayed they would, belittled myself because "my righteousness was like filthy rags", sang praise songs, wrote a few praise songs myself... Yet, because I deconverted, I was never truly saved? Then what constitutes actually, truly being saved?
After all, another thing Christians love to say is "once saved, always saved."
There are just too many holes in this whole thing, and too many mental gymnastics required to believe in it.
That's my story as well. After finally admitting there was no intentional, supernatural deity that had any control over daily life, I remain amazed at the lengths people go to try and continually convince themselves that its all real. That's why they have to think we "weren't really saved" (though those who knew me for decades have a hard time swallowing that)- because if its possible to have genuinely believed and then not believe- then it call their own faith into question- and that is just more than many can stomach.
I am totally fan girling right now! 💞💞Bigger exposure for these two amazing humans is long overdue! Loved this interview.
Hey Holly! Thank you very much. You will always by my Number 1 "fan-girl".....lol...just sayin :)
Holly, we have never met but thank you very much!!
ok I love these two together, the way they echo each other, I could listen to it like it's a meditation track
Yes! They are awesome together! Such brotherly love, it shines through.
@@HarmonicAtheist I have one constructive comment: the factoid about having written 70 books really threw me off in the beginning and I had to stop and investigate before continuing to watch. Turns out most are unpublished and many were lost in a home flood. It made me think "eh maybe I don't want to keep watching" because it lowered my trust, but then I was really glad I kept watching anyway. I don't doubt that he wrote that much volume-wise because I have friends who write fanfiction and they are extremely prolific, but I think the generally accepted meaning of "I have written X books" is that they are at least self-published books.
It's like an atheist sermon!
Thank you!
That's why every cult discourages thinking. You never know where it leads to.
Exactly! Thinking on your own is HIGHLY prohibited. The cult of christianity.
@@razony I don't think there's such a thing as Christianity. Rather, there are different Christianities. Some of them are cults, some others aren't.
I really appreciate the description below the video. 👌
Thank you!
This was a wonderful interview! You two have such a powerful, moving story. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Great talking points I am spiritual and believe there is a Universal Source but certainly NOT a Christian God of the Bible.
Me too. it's so interesting because in these deconstruction conversations I'm often among atheists -- which I'm also not one of. You've described my position exactly. How does an infinite being fit into the confines of a human story -- especially a story designed to keep people under control by other humans.
Same. That's what I always believed. That there was a higher comic power beyond human comprehension. But 2 years ago I was sucked into Christianity for a season. I had watched a bunch of satanic ritual abuse victim testimonials which scared me into thinking that satan might be real, and that I might have been wrong about the God of the Bible. I went all in. Church. Bible study, prayer group, etc. But I had an ever growing list of questions that came up about the biblical God of Israel. He didn't seem very nice. Eventually I just decided I didn't believe in that God, just like I had thought from the beginning of my life. I'm not sure where I'm at 100% now. Maybe there was a Jesus who was God's son. Idk. But I DO know that the Bible is messed up. I'm still searching.
Von turned back to Christianity. I think he did it, because he was struggling so much in life, and wanted comfort, idk.
He had a really scary experience where he thought he was going to die. If I recall from watching his video describing his return to faith, he prayed and told God he would serve Him, etc. if he lived through it. I firmly believe it's all fear of death and now he's back to his same judgment-style preaching.
I have been subscribed to his channel here recently, and had to unsubscribe. It is confusing that he turned his back on God as seen in this interview from a year ago, and he is now back preaching and pastoring,that is strange to me.It confuses me greatly.
It's interesting to me that hardship is what turns a person to religion; apparently, the most religious countries are the ones where most people live pretty miserable lives. Not sure that what religion offers is more than a fantasy escape, a lot of the time.
I love how one brother keeps up a running assent to what the other is saying, like the Amen corner at their old churches.
LOL. Old habits are hard to break....
I had to be the “encourager” lol 😂 it’s just how we have always been since children.
Fellow Bro's on the internet. it is obvious you have good, good hearts, have sharp minds and your excellent people and problem-solving skills brought to to a better place in this world. Virtual big, big hugs to both of you.
What is going to be interesting is your current journey. But it is evident that y'all are going to make a bigger difference in the world before the road ends, with your gifts and amazing strength of character !!
Thank you very much. We are also curious exactly where this newfound spiritual pathway will take us.
@@VonHanshaw From a guy "long way down the pathway", may I recommend, at the very least, always be a good example. The best legacy is always to be "the North Star" so that those with honor and a good heart can also extend the pathways that make the world a good place to be.
Despite what people may believe, we live in the best of times with electricity, airplanes, wireless computers etc. We no longer stone people (horrific punishment) per a commandment and are evolving from taking advice from "a god" who didn't say murder with rocks is bad...only don't kill this women if you too are bad...which changed nothing obviously.
It sounds like you've found the happiness you deserve. May the road rise to meet you and the wind be at your back.
@@onedaya_martian1238 Thank you very much.
@@VonHanshaw A pleasure. Especially to hear from someone with so many gifts ! Much appreciated.
@@faurioan5265 I am assuming by "LIGHT OF THE WORLD" you are referring to Jesus Christ. I am assuming you think I was brainwashed into believing I was born again when I was not really born again? You say you can see that I was guided by men and not by God. I need to ask you a question: Who died and made you God? How can you know my heart, my mind, my spirit, and my soul? Let me teach you something about yourself here. You have to attack me because you do not have enough Bible knowledge to attack what I said in this video, so you attempt to discredit my spiritual experience in an attempt to discredit my deconversion. You are saying that I was never "Saved" to begin with so there is no big deal that I left Christianity. Sorry but your words are empty here and your manipulative tricks do not work on me. I'm a little too old for your religious shenanigans.
People are the most important thing. How you treat people is what matters most. Why, because you are people too...
You are It. Says Alan Watts.
Not just people, I'd say. How we treat everything. How we live.
Excellent! These guys are fantastic. What a dynamic interview! I can totally believe these guys were successful evangelists! Glad they are using their powers for other, arguably better, endeavors!
Thank you.
@@VonHanshaw OH, you might want to check out The Clergy Project! It's a group of former, and even current, clergy who've moved away from "faith."
Nicole thank you for the kind words!!
@@nicoleurbach2861 I did a couple of years ago. It was not a good fit for me. They are mostly Atheist. I am not an Atheist. I am an Animist Pagan.
@@VonHanshaw 😃Hey that’s great! I’m into beastiality!!
Beautiful guys I love their hearts
Thank you Joseph.
@@VonHanshaw hi Von just shared a short personal video you. On your facebook messenger
@@j77778 here is my Facebook account/profile. facebook.com/grey.eagle.3939
Thank you for the kind words Joseph
this really hits home! thank you so much
Ironically, our dear Brother Von went back to following YAHWEH with 6 months of the making of this interview.
He made a video on his channel detailing his reasons for returning to follow YAHWEH.
(Brother Von is seen in the video in the pink shirt)
Thank you for sharing...
I am glad you all understand things better now..
The story Tim told of the girl who was raped and abused who rejected God -vs- the man who abused her and then got saved is the exact injustice suffered by my daughter. She died at 39 of a drug overdose trying to escape the pain. Her abusers are still living. No god - no justice. Her abusers destroyed her life and mine.
I am so sorry.
@@VonHanshaw Thank you.
@@dianestafford6968 Thank you, but I completely disagree with you. God and religious cults in general are mythology and justice is rare. I was a fully committed Christian for 50 years and over the course of a few years my eyes were opened to the truth. Luckily, this happened before my daughter died or I would have blamed god for her death. Read anything by Richard Dawkins.
@@dianestafford6968 I hold no hate, but see the cruel reality of life on earth for what it is. I don’t like it when abusers are free to continue to abuse. Hitler got off way too easy, but at least he was stopped. I have been to Germany many times and visited Dachau. It is good to see how the German people don’t want anyone to forget what happened (unlike slavery and lynchings in America) to hopefully prevent that from happening again. Too bad genocide continues in other parts of the world. How could there possibly be a god?
@@dianestafford6968 First of all god did not make me. I am the biological result of the coming together of my father’s sperm and my mother’s egg that resulted in me. I was also brought up to be kind, caring and compassionate and as a flight attendant for 22 years, was often complimented for my kindness and compassion, much like my mom. I do believe we all make choices on how to treat others, how to react to life, etc. At 68 years of age, having studied the Bible for most of my life, having a father who is a pastor, a brother who is a pastor and a husband who is a Christian there is nothing anyone can say that I have not heard before. I have had more peace of mind and less disappointment since rejecting the fantasy and mythology of religion than I ever had before. I appreciate your compassion, but you are wasting your time to try to change my mind. I trust the truth, reality and evidence of science over the unbelievable stories, misinformation, forgeries, non-history of any religious book.
These guys are great. Thanks Tim. Keep up the good work.
Thanks John
John thank you
@@hdhanshaw1371 your very welcome and I started following you on Ubtube. And I'm also going to get your book. You guys taught me a lot.
Good good stuff here. I have straightaway subscribed to Von's channel. Thanks folks!
Thank you Ebbie.
Awesome, thank you!
Very real conversation... thank you
What made a monster psycho who beat, starved, shot guns at his children
..what made him totally change into a kind gentle man?
Thank you for a very interesting channel.
You might enjoy mine as well!
@@faithlessfather I will check your channel. Thank you.
what a great conversation.
Really loved Howard's words at the end about how the walls of judgment had come down and loving everybody!
I know, right? Seems as if the price of being one of the 'chosen ones' is that we have to judge others as 'unchosen', lesser.
Respect to these guys. Really appreciate their testimony.
This is incredible.
Thank you Steven
Absolutely great interview..
I consider myself a skeptic theist and hearing an illustration abut "equal grounds" followed by a story of these two gentlemen easily broke my heart... I despise religion that requires your soul to receive help. I'd rather be godless in pursuit of bringing heaven here. I hope (and pray) that the girls that was abused an anyone who was a victim in the name of whatever god get vindicated and receive justice in this world.
With all these cultish religions groups, just ask the question, when they start spouting: Where is the love? There's plenty of angry shouting and condemnation. But where is the love?
THAT is a really good question to ask. In any group that professes to be spiritual or otherwise "good".
Damn good show. Damn good.
Thanks, John!
28:00 "Maybe you don't know enough about life yet to be saying what you're saying" - AMEN!
About 16 years of age my experiences started through all of my senses exple.. see and hear spirits..smell death ahead of time..seen some people with halos..mysterious lights..have prophetic dreams.. heard verbal angel voices warnings..heard God,s voice. Talking to me twice...will know when u are lying to me from near or far.. seen dead family shortly after death..but in another realm.. last but not least..about Jesus.. I need to tell that experience face to face. To be honest.. sometimes I wish all this would go away.. it's not a joke. . Up to you to believe me or not..
@@avrildixon7291 Not, I don’t see how you read from Genesis 1 thru Revelations 22 and believe. If you see dead people and hear voices, I believe you. Sol of Tarsus did the same thing, he was a nut job conning people out of money.
@@arnoldjohnson3317 if you read thru from genesis to revelation why would I accuse you of believing or not believing.
I don’t really think it’s an age thing, it’s more of lies to be truthful. Once I realized that this book called a Bible holds no water I had to walk away plus the hundreds of unanswered questions. So I decided I could not believe a lie or the Bible anymore.
@@avrildixon7291 Serious question. Have you enquired into a medical or psychological health reason for the effects that you describe? Were MRI tests done? Psychological analysis and evaluations? You realise that the majority of what you're describing is related to schizophrenia right? Just asking out of concern.
I used to take naps on the church pew or draw during services when I was a child, although I was finally "baptized" at the age of fifteen because it was the only way I could get the congregation to share their grape juice with me! My older sister years later asked me how did I not feel "guilty". I suppose it's because I intuitively ignored any words that regurgitated from the preacher's mouth as he pounded his fist on the podium or raised his voice to emphasize points of the biblical allegory as if that would make the story any less false!
This is my struggle as an atheist/agnostic. I completely agree and feel the pain of having wasted more than half my life on a lie (christianity/religion). I'm bitter and angry about that, and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. But when I hear stories like this about how christianity/religion stopped their father from beating them and their mother -- that makes me not want to speak out against it.
Love these two brothers!
Isn't it ashes to ashes and dust to dust? I'm crying for my mother thinking that she is going to meet this supernatural being and nothing happens.
look up near death experiences. am not saying that they are all true, but some might help.
i am sorry for your loss, and hope you find comfort and hope.
But don't worry. If there is nothingness after death she will not have awareness of it.
Hey Hanshaw brothers! I'm from Northern Ohio but my mom and her side of the family were from Kentucky,down around the river in the Ashland area,And my dad's side of the family is fro across the river,round about the Huntington area.They used to take me to visit relatives on both sides of the river,.It was kind've an adventure for me when I was little.Anyhow,since I'm half Kentuckian,I think that makes us half brothers!
Howdy half-brother! LOL. Nice to meet ya.
Welcome to the family lol we are all in this together
1979: I stood in the sitting room belonging to a older woman on an Israeli kibbutz sharing my shopping from Jerusalem. I was 18. I was an Evangelical Christian. My Jewish friend translated the Yiddish and English back and forth. The older lady wanted to know why I had the Israeli athem on a 45 rpm record. I want to bring it home to my parents I told her, "they love Israel". (Of course their love was built on "end-times" propaganda, but she didn't know that.) Tears of surprise sprouted from her eyes, and as she moved her arms I noticed again the concentration camp tattoo. In that moment I thought of what it would have meant to her to see a cross, a church, in all of her life, before she had finally escaped to more-or-less atheist-socialist saftey. How could she ever be expected to "accept Jesus into her heart"? And I knew, there was something wrong with my religion's command to "preach the gospel". There was something wrong with expecting her to "come to (my) faith".
Once I walked away from SBC that I grew up in, I felt tremendous relief. Now I see or hear preaching I feel sorry for people who are so deluded.
If someone has reverence and lives a holy life and is grateful and is influential and persuasive they can influence another like the pastor did with this wonderful brothers dad.
I will say that Pastor McGuffey (who led our dad into church) was a really great man who did help a lot of men lay down the bottle who were alcoholics. I no longer agree with his theology but I agree with his goodness of heart to help his fellow man.
“What happens to people who have never heard of Jesus?” Was one of the first questions I asked as I entered my (very brief) stint as a “born again” Christian at age 25, out of a history of primarily dabbling in occult/new age practices. The only answer I found was that we can trust God to give every person an opportunity to seek Him. At that point, I had basically decided I really really wanted something to believe in and the tools of Christianity had effectively begun to shut down my critical thinking capabilities. Once you develop an emotional connection to the religion and see God as your lifeline, and buy into “His ways are more mysterious than our ways” (which previously in my life I had rejected as a cop out, but it began to make sense later in life with the correct combination of emotionality, desperation, self righteousness and magical thinking!), you can make sense of whatever you want to. I’m trying to not feel stupid since I knew better, but honestly this whole experience has made me realize that all forms of spirituality are a crutch and that I must now seek the answers to my questions through history and science and not from religion, philosophy, ideology or any other intangible thing.
Honest. Brave. Intelligent. Ex-Minister. Mabuhay. Walk away also from Poker. We love you. Play Chess as a substitute for what you are missing - the high of that Opium of the Peeps.
The most fascinating thing about these interviews is that the interviewees were generally well versed and deep into the religion more than the lay person.
Mark Twain said the best way to lose Christian belief is to read the Bible. Really read it, not just pick certain parts or listen to a preacher say what it means.
The part of Christianity where it placates traumatized folks (mostly men) by giving them this conversion story and making them a minister, basically making their life the Jesus story is a trip.
So fking depressing. Keep coming to these videos because I believed once upon a time and I’m interested in atheism then have to stop when they start talking about the disgusting abuse they were put through. Hardly surprising, I left my own abusive husband from hospital when my daughter was born and in the same breath left Christianity. I couldn’t get wise to one abuser and keep another.
You were in touch with the truth, my hat's off to you. A lot of people don't get that.
You can see how fully emersed, cause it is still difficult to accept emotionally that the bible is not a good guide. They feel very truthful! I have no doubt! It is a struggle to make be aligned in our thinking, something we all have. Love your interview!
53:30 through 54:56
Wow! I've never thought of it like that before, but it's a valid conclusion. I'll remember that.
Tim, can you point me to a source that talks about there being six different books of acts? I did a Google search and can’t find anything.
I'm working on a project to detail all of these, but for now I'd start here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
The quantity you pick really depends on how wide of a "time net" you spread.
This site is helpful too:
earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html
@@HarmonicAtheist Hi Harmonic Atheist. If you didn’t know already, Yahweh was originally a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon that assimilated the Canaanite gods El and Baal as the Israelites transitioned from polytheism to monotheism and even inherited El's wife in the process as he inherited the top position in the pantheon. He was originally a son of the chief Canaanite god El.
@@HarmonicAtheist
*The Israelite people were indigenous Canaanites.*
So where did the Israelite people come from? *The Israelite people were originally Canaanite pastoralists who, in 1300 BCE. changed their economic strategy in response to worsening conditions.* There is substantial evidence for this hypothesis.
*Linguistic:* Hebrew and Canaanite language are increasingly indistinguishable the further back you go in the Iron Age.
*Material culture:* Israelite and Canaanites shared the same building plans, pottery designs, village layouts, cooking habits …
*In Canaan, the chief god was El. El’s wife was Asherah, and his sons include Ba’al and Anut. The Canaanite pantheon is well-understood from the discovery of the Ugaritic texts.*
In most English translations of the Hebrew Bible, you will see frequent use of the words “God” and “Lord”. The Hebrew terms for these phrases are more literally translated “El” and “Yahweh”. They are used so interchangeably in the Hebrew Bible that you would think them synonyms.
*Names: The very name “Israel” means “house of El”. In contrast, later Israelite names have “Yahweh”-based suffixes e.g., Jehu. Further, most Israelite cities were named after the gods in El’s assembly.*
The god Anat was honored in the city of Anathoth, the place of origin of the prophet Jeremiah.
The god Dagan in Beth-Dagan.
The god El in Beth-El.
The god Shamash in Beth-Shamash.
The god Shalimu in Jerusalem.
*Ritual systems:* The priestly system laid out in Leviticus is very nearly copy-and-pasted from the Ugaritic sacrificial system.
*Legal codes:* The Covenant, Holiness, and Deuteronomic law codes share strong parallels with surrounding Canaanite legal systems.
*Iconography:* A seal found in Jerusalem in a tomb of the seventh century shows a solar god flanked by two minor gods: “Righteousness” and “Justice”
*There are also expressions of polytheism throughout the Hebrew Bible. For example,*
“Do you not possess that which Chemosh, your god, has given you? So shall we possess what Yahweh has given us.” Judges 11:24
“Who is like Yahweh among the gods?” Exodus 15:11
“The people of Judah have as many gods as they have towns.” Jeremiah 11:13
*Yahweh was introduced to Israel as a second tier deity (a member of El’s family)*
*This can be seen in Deuteronomy 32:8-9, where El gives each of his sons a nation to rule over:*
*When El gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of El. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.*
*In Psalm 82, we see Yahweh not at the head of the pantheon, but later asked to assume the job of all gods. “Yahweh stands in the divine assembly of El. Among the divinities, he pronounces judgment… Arise O Yahweh, judge the world; for You inherit all the nations.” Genesis 49:24-25 and Numbers 23-24 also view YHWH and El existing as distinct deities.*
We have seen how Yahweh was first worshiped in Midian, and not Israel. Concurrently, El was worshiped in the land of Israel.
*Then, when Yahwism emigrated to Israel (incorporation), Yahweh was not recognized as a god of gods. Rather, Yahweh was elevated to this position (equated with El) as the nation of Judah transitioned towards statehood.*
*In summary:*
The Israelite origin story is largely a patriotic fiction.
The Israelite people were indigenous Canaanites.
The first Israelites worshiped the pantheon of El.
The original Yahweh cult was a Shasu religion located in southern Edom
Yahweh was first worshiped as a god of metallurgy
The founder of Judaism, Moses, was said to be a Midianite
Yahweh was introduced to Israel as a second tier deity (a member of El’s family)
Yahweh, god of metallurgy | Fewer Lacunae
kevinbinz.com/2018/07/11/yahweh-god-of-metallurgy/
@@HarmonicAtheist
*Yahweh was introduced to Israel in a five-stage process:*
*Traditional Polytheism:* The earliest Israelites worshipped creator god El, his wife Asherah, and his sons e.g., Baal.
*Incorporation:* Yahweh was incorporated as a 2nd tier god in El’s pantheon.
*Elevation:* Yahweh and El are identified as the same deity.
*Monolatrism:* A new Yahweh-only movement emerges, and the gods of the second tier are denied.
*Monotheism:* Gods of other nations are denied, Yahweh’s power is deemed universal in scope.
*At some point in its history, El was identified with Yahweh as the same god.*
This equation is expressed clearly in Exodus 6:2-3. “And God said to Moses, “I am Yahweh. I appeared to the patriarchs as El, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them.” Other Biblical material asserts this equation. Joshua 22:22 states “the god of gods is Yahweh”. Judges 9:46 refers to “El of the covenant”.
*The Yahweh-alone movement vigorously condemn prominent Canaanite gods… except El. There are zero condemnations of El in the Hebrew Bible. This makes sense if Yahweh was ultimately identified with this Canaanite creator-god.* What’s more, archaeological evidence suggests that the Yahweh religious centers in Shiloh and Bethel were originally a place of El worship.
*El and Yahweh are attributed same characteristics.* El is depicted as a wise old man with a beard eg “You are great, O El, and your hoary beard instructs you”. Yahweh is described in the same terms (Daniel 7:9, Job 36:26, Habakkuk 3:6). Like “Kind El, the Compassionate”, Yahweh is a “merciful and gracious god”. The description of Yahweh’s dwelling place as a tent (Psalms 15:1, 27:6, 91:10) recalls the tent of El in the Canaanite narrative of Elkunirsa. Finally, both Yahweh and El are said to dwell amidst cosmic waters (Isaiah 33:20-22, Ezekiel 47:1-12, Zechariah 14:8).
*El’s wife was named Asherah. When Yahweh was identified with El, did he also inherit his wife?* In the blessings of Joseph, Genesis 49:25 contains language specific to the Asherah cult “blessings from Breast-and-Womb”. *The Bible further admits that the Israelites frequently worshipped a “Queen of Heaven”* (Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-25). Indeed, 2 Kings 21:7 tells us that worship of Asherah happened within the Temple itself. *Finally, archaeology has uncovered several icons with the inscription “Yahweh and his Asherah”. This evidence cumulatively suggests that, in early forms of Israelite religion Yahweh was believed to have a wife.*
*The push towards monolatrism led to the eviction of the Asherah cult, whose memory may be preserved in Zechariah 5:5-11.* But this eviction created a deficit of femininity to Israelite religious expression. *To compensate, the Biblical writers began attributing feminine attributes to Yahweh (Isaiah 49:15, 46:3, 44:2,24, 42:14).*
*To induce the Israelites to stop worshipping Baal, the imagery of Baal was adopted by the Yahweh cult.* The Baal Cycle, ancient mythology on the scale of the Epic of Gilgameth, has four literary themes for the storm god. *Here are those themes, along with the Biblical text which mirrors them.*
The march of the divine warrior (Psalm 104:3 “He makes the clouds his chariot, and travels along on the wings of the wind”)
The convulsions of nature as the divine warrior manifests his power (Judges 5:5, Hab 3:10)
The return of the divine warrior to his holy mountain to assume divine kingship (Isaiah 31:4)
The utterance of the divine warrior’s voice from his palace provides rains that fertilize the earth (Jeremiah 10:13)
*Yahweh is also depicted as defeating Baal’s classic enemies:*
Baal/Yahweh defeats a seven headed dragon, Leviathan, and River (CAT 5.1, Psalm 74:13-15).
Baal/Yahweh defeats Sea (KTU 1.14, Psalm 89:10).
Baal/Yahweh defeats Death/Mot (KTU 1.4 VIII-1.6, Isaiah 25:8).
Polytheistic Roots of Israelite Religion | Fewer Lacunae
kevinbinz.com/2018/07/21/polytheistic-roots-of-israelite-religion/
Is it true Von went back to this fable a year ago? I can’t imagine
Yes. You can research it on CZcams. These people go right back a lot of the time because they’re in fear of after death, health issues, fear of hell/end times, conspiracy theories, not having a social network, etc. they don’t get out this stuff. That’s why I’m careful on the ones who were deeply into this stuff.
They have severe guilt that things will go and after leaving because they don’t take full control of their lives. They don’t try to get religious trauma therapy, find hobbies, and truly find a new set of friends, etc. So they run back to this stuff when they have no control on their lives or can’t fathom without that mess.
They will leave once pissed off with their congregations but not truly doing it because they want the world to evolve from this folklore and death cults. Especially children also to spread the message for people to actually become appreciative of life. Tim needs to make a clipped comment in the section when these people return back to Christianity, JW, Muslim, etc.
@@Fourwindsofsuccess That makes a lot of sense. I never stopped to think how important therapy is in getting over religious trauma. There is also the issue of being superstitious. A lot of these people, no matter how educated or logical they are, are superstitious. I kind of put myself in the superstitious category 😃
@@lizhoward9754 It's a very deep kind of programming we get, and we get it secularly, too. Consider: Western European education comes from the church is literally in-formed by it. So that means that influence is also part of professions, business, laws, social mores as a result.
@@sundayoliver3147true. So many people really need a therapists trained in dealing with religious trauma victims. There are so many and these people are hurting
Isn't it ironic, this Von Hanshaw returned to Jesus recently.
@@ChristsFinishedworkonthecross Never failed him? Either God bugged him to death and or made his a living hell for turning away? He felt owed by healing his physical health? Or he was still worried about hell. Either way; God is isn't good and he is the master manipulator.
So, I've just watched some new videos put out by Von Hanshaw and he and his brother have reverted back to christianity. He's blocked his comment section. But as of right now you still can email him. I have my theories of why he did it. But, I'm not going to ask questions. The reason I'm writing here is because I wanted rewatch this video. And refresh all the reasons why he said he left. And it just doesn't add up.
So anybody watching this video will be disillusioned, it's no longer true what he says here. Thanks for all the videos you put out. I very rarely write or comment on videos. But I thought I needed to mention it here.
Happy New Year to you and thanks again ☺
It's bizarre.
@@summerbiby1496 Very Bazaar, and very misleading. Now Von Hanshaw is preaching new videos about how the rest of have demons. Using what he called a scare tactic in the past. Shame on both of them.
@@priscillabottomley3218 it's repulsive. I question his motives.
I was sad to learn of his reconversion, but I kind of understand... He was divorced 4 times and terribly lonely due to a disability no fault of his own. He lost all hope of human companionship and later had a terrible accident that pushed him over the edge back toward the indoctrination forced upon him as a child.
See his video "Disabled: Loneliness & Rejection" to get a glimpse into his headspace not long before things suddenly went much worse. I suspect he never truly disbelieved, but obviously I'm in no place to know. Maybe religion is the only thing helping him make some kind of sense out of his challenges that otherwise result from an obviously complete lack of intelligent design. Those challenges impacted him very personally more than they would most of us.
If delusion gives him a measure of peace, I can't in good conscience hold that against him. Fantasy seems preferable to reality in his particular situation. I hope what remains of his life is the best it can be for him under difficult circumstances, regardless of how it aligns with reality.
My atheism informs me that his conclusions are delusional, but this is one of those VERY few situations where I could see the benefit outweighing the cost.
@@mannyguyson I've watched his videos, his past videos and current videos. He's removed almost all of his past videos. In those videos he mostly talked to the christians about the religion and how hypocritical they were as christians.
Now he does to all of us exactly as his once christian friends did and still do to him.
He deleted most of his old videos as if that's going to hide what he did.
I don't give him a pass as easy peasy as you do. I don't believe his laundry basket story for a minute. And by making more recent videos calling those of us who are on the outside of christianity, demons or demon processed is not someone with a good heart. Name calling is not how you win people over. He did that out of anger to his christian community that treated him badly. None of us on the opposite side of christianity treated him badly or disrespected him. All of us did not do not deserve to be treated like lower class people. We didn't do anything to him, we all supported him.
Everything he has recently done didn't bring back his christian fake friends. And he pushed everyone else away who supported him.
He is still lonely, now lives in a nursing home, the one place he never wanted to go. He lives a miserable sad life and blames everyone else for his misery.
I know people with disabilities, and they do not treat others or talk to others like Von Hanshaw believes he can. He uses his disability for sympathy.
I'm sorry he goes through pain on a daily basis. But what he needs to be doing is learn how to be nice from the heart, be kind to people. He might go further.
I personally don't care what religion he believes. It's the lies and hypocrisy that he is living.
I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have to respectfully disagree with you, Von Hanshaw in my opinion is just one more reason why I'm not in any religion. And I'm not an enabler of excuses for him to lean on.
And I'm no longer watching anymore of Von Hanshaw videos.
What you said around 34 minutes is exactly true. Everyone is going to hell, and you're worried about your job, your kids, your car, house, vacation, etc. I've heard it preached so many times. Meanwhile, most of the people sitting around me in the church, had those things: family, car, job, etc. It was like being told to throw away my life, not live in reality. And your right, you either aspire to be a Missionary or a Pastor, or a pastor's wife. I aspired to that too, except, because I'm a woman, my place is limited. My job would be to marry a man, and support his calling.
Congratulations for finding your way out!
Thumbs up for "no judgmental shit."
Some of us grew up knowing the Bible stories were mythology, and we still found meaning in it. My dad used to say, “People who don’t believe in God have no imagination!” Religion is an imaginative exercise. I think if you grew up thinking this was historical, then it’s easy to think of it as “JUST” mythology, as if mythology is disappointing. Stories, mythology, folklore are WONDERFUL! Knowing it isn’t relegated to the “historical” makes it more fun!
As A (first) Former Pentecostal, Word of Faith, Church of Christ Baptist, and everything else in between. You are 200% CORRECT IN YOUR Ananlysist !!!! Been there done that !!!
What finally made you leave Christianity?
Thank you Truth seeker
Thank you.
@@faithlessfather dozens of unanswered questions about God, Jesus and the Bible.
@@faithlessfather nothing in the Bible came true for me...for example...laying on of hands and the sick recover. The Tithing Lie most of all!!! Pimping in the pulpit. Etc etc.
See Von's updated conversion experience of going back to Jesus Christ (December 2021).
Howard echoed and affirmed Von's position of "going back to his roots".
Where/when has Howard echoed this?
@@dannondixon1211 It was in the comment section of his video "Von Hanshaw Returns to Jesus Christ" (1st comment from Howard Hanshaw).
However, since that time, Von has turned the comment section off.
Von mentioned he would like to be part of a group of former ministers.. suggest to him "The Clergy Project."
I tried the Clergy Project and it was not a good fit there because I am not an Atheist. I am an Animist who believes in a Creator, Mother Earth, and The Great Spirit.
@@VonHanshaw I teach religion from the anthropological perspective. I am trying to figure out. Here is something to consider, explore.czcams.com/video/HzK1ejXMOHo/video.html
Another video (quite academic and very interesting: czcams.com/video/oVQ1H7NBULU/video.html
@@samirihernandez3534 thank you.
I’m from Lancaster! Do you still live around there?
Hi, Kendal! I am down in Atlanta, GA now, but my family is still in Lancaster. I sent an email regarding an interview -- would love to hear your story sometime if you're up for it. --Tim
I wanna know what their dad would have said about how Satan was able to rebel in heaven. That was a question I had growing up too. Of course no satisfactory answers given, along with a number of other plot holes in Christianity.
Also, I’d be interested to know what they would attribute their dads radical changed life to (admittedly I haven’t finished listening to the interview yet).
I did a mission trip with New Tribes Mission back in the day Tim.
My Dad to the day he died would never even go there. I kindly asked later and he refused to said a word and I knew then it was over for me!! If 2 + 2 does not equal 4 I’m out.
Satan was able to rebel because he had his own will.
By the way I used to be a "Psychic" and was rescued from the fires of a real hell! There is POWER IN THE NAME OF JESUS! JESUS IS REAL.
@@MM-ib1gc that makes no sense according to your Bible. He was created to serve and worship god. Now as a human being according to your Bible we were given a choice but not in a perfect place called heaven.
@@hdhanshaw1371 Where in the bible do you get that there can't be chaos in heaven?
Great interview, fascinating story and nice, sincere guys.
However, there is something that puzzles me a bit;
About halfway during the interview, they tell the initial cause of their deconversion, or at least for Von: he got some questions that he couldn't answer:
1) How did Noah and God get all of the many species of animals onto a 450 foot Ark?
2) Where does a person go who has never had the opportunity to even hear about Jesus? Heaven or Hell?
3) Why doesn't the Bible condemn slavery? (I got this last one from another interview).
They especially elaborate about 2) and rightly so, it is fundamental.
However, these are very, very basic and obvious questions, and I can hardly imagine that the Hanshaw brothers were preachers and evangelists for a few decades, without ever having been asked these questions, or similar ones, before. And that they, as bible teachers, never had to think about these questions before, during those decades.
It makes me suspect that there must have been another factor that catalyzed their deconversion.
I wonder what it is?
These interviews are so good, and I am working my way out of my faith. One question I would love to hear in these interviews is what happened to their relationships with their spouses?
My father and his wife are ministers my wife is catholic. We all get along fine. Relationships dont have to change because you have a different belief. If your spouse was to vote opposite of you in an election does it change your relationship?
@@defenestratefalsehoods Depending on the election or the religion, it could. I'm glad things are peaceable in your family, but it doesn't happen that way in every family; it's a legit question that's being asked here.
First comment good luck
These guys are from my cultural area...sound just like all my family. I also grew up Free Will Baptist. Wonder if they know some of them?
Very possible that we may know some of your family in the Kentucky-Tennessee-Ohio regions.
Henthorn's live and preach in Scioto County, Ohio (Portsmouth region.) They're in Free Will Baptist churches.
@@bowenarrow2213 I know Calvin Ray Evans very well in that area and many other Freewill Baptist ministers in that area as well. The Henthorn name does not ring a bell however.
@@VonHanshaw My uncle Henthorn's church is just down the street a mile or so from Calvin Evan's church on St Rte 139. I went to Rubyville Community Church where he is now pastor all 4 of my teen years. Pastor Wilbur Crace was alive and pastor back then. Cal Ray preached regularly, though and also preached our church camps. Yeah, I knew Cal Ray well and his wife, Candy.
Outstanding video. Watched it twice. Please have these guys on again building on additional things that time would not allow....
For sure, will do! -Tim
Thank you very much.
@@VonHanshaw Former Independant Baptist. I feel all you are presenting. To leave you have to be 100 truth seeker though the heavens fall. Most wont or too chicken shit to even consider.
@@lewhellickson3130 Yes, one must be a sincere seeker of true truth in order to make such a spiritual transition.
Lew it’s been a real journey seeking the truth, once I found it I knew I was gone for good!! Thanks
Sometimes the Law given by God is silly.
For example, the Law of the brother who dies without children in Deuteronomy chapter 25.
The widow's brother-in-law must "go in unto her" so that the dead brother can have children !
If he doesn't want to take his brother's wife, then he must be punished by having his shoe loosed !
And what about the wife? What if she doesn't want to "lie with" her brother-in-law?
@@sundayoliver3147
God doesn't say, but we can assume she will comply meekly.
@@sundayoliver3147
But we can tell from verse 9 that the wife is very keen to comply.
Not only will his shoe be loosed, but she will spit in his face.
Another silly law is in verse 12.
@@sundayoliver3147
In verse 19 God wants his people to blot out the memory of Amalek.
But then he says "thou shalt not forget it".
Confused ?
I will gladly talk to anyone who is struggling to come out of religious trauma. I make no charge for any help I can offer in words.
What keeps so many people hooked on attending a church? .....A sense of community and connection because humans are social creatures. Community and social connections thrive without religion through the goodness of humanity not the grace of a God.
the group is "recovering from Religion"
I like that title Ron, Recovering from religion the great “lie”’
Be patient. You constructed a life as a christian. You have deconstructed that christian life. Now it takes hugh amounts of trust that you will reconstruct a new way of meaningful life away from christianity.
Two of my sons got involved with a Pentecostal church in their teens. I remember them telling me one day they had been out doing ''outreach'' with a man in his 40's who had been ''backsliding''. They were, at the time, 19 and 14 years old. I don't know how that went, but to me the very idea of sending a couple of kids to counsel a grown man was preposterous.
We're so sure we're right when we're younger: it's why older people can create child soldiers, militarily and religiously. (Grrew up singing 'Onward Christian Soldiers".)
The coverups for introducing myths in place of the pure teachings of Christ are quite ridiculous. It begs the question: How people would benefit from the teachings of Jesus,
as opposed to the dogma of religion?
Apparently Von reconverted? Love to see a follow up video
Thank you, this is so true.
Thank you Robert
Yes, 153 certainly is a 'spiritual' number. The Pythagorean vesica piscis. Two equal circles over lapping to form the 'Jesus Fish'...
While watching this video, I popped on over to Von's CZcams channel only to discover a more recent video where he states he has repented and turned back to Christ. Go figure. Don't know about Howard though.
@All at CZcams in India must see!