While I lean towards a historical man named Jesus I am also pretty certain that he did very few if any of the deeds attributed to him in the new testament.
I have noticed that when historians say “Jesus existed” most people hear “the Jesus Christ who walked on water and healed the sick existed” and especially some atheists get their knickers in a twist. That’s not the case. When historians say they believe (because it’s the more likely explanation) that Jesus existed they mean the rabbi from Galilee with a relatively small following of peasants who got himself executed by the Romans and upon whose figure, in the following decades, legends accreted. It was rather normal in Greek Roman culture to attribute divine parentage and extraordinary deeds to remarkable individuals so it’s far from surprising that Jesus followers used the same tropes, first orally and then in writing, to convey to listeners how great their deceased leader was.
Thanks again Dan! It’s amazing how many people think they know what they are talking about and are simply wrong. But so strongly convicted of their position! Aren’t we funny critters 😂
He seems way off base on the history of the Jews and Rome. Because of the antiquity of their religion Jews were allowed to sacrifice and pray for Caesar's well bring rather than *to him*. I think he's conflating the Roman invasion with the Seleucid era.
Yet again, I'd love to see Dan go over the work of Richard Carrier. Buying into any sort of historical Jesus requires buying into a set of assumptions that I don't think are well supported. Dan taking a look at the arguments for why this is the case would be pretty interesting... if not well outside of the scope of this channel.
Richard Carriers work relies on a number of extremely conjectural and wild assumptions and is thus rejected by all critical scholars who actually work within this field
Richard Carriers work also depends deeply on the use of Bayesian analysis, which is something deeply misapplied when used for historical analysis, and indeed has only been to my knowledge used elsewhere once, by someone arguing for the historicity of Jesus’s miracles
@@PasteurizedLettuce "extremely conjectural and wild assumptions" Have you actually read the book? "rejected by all critical scholars who actually work within this field" No it's not. Ya don't need to lie just because you don't like him. It uh, makes you look a little deranged.
@@PasteurizedLettuceThis is complete nonsense. On Carrier's website he has a list of over 40 scholars with relevant credentials who have stated that it is at least plausible that there was no historical, flesh and blood Jesus. Of course it's still a minority position, but it's completely false to state that no New Testament scholar lends any support to his thesis. And you're equally wrong about his use of Bayes Theorem, as other historians have written about its potential usefulness for helping to ascertain cerrain historical probabilities. But keep on hating, gomer, if it makes you feel good.
Please make a video talking about casting out demons and healing the sick of Todd White, Dan mohler, torben sondergard and more I would like to know your thoughts.
I would take some different critiques and answers. First was Yeshu of Nazara killed by the Romans as a traitor. So if we are using the two source hypothesis, one source (Q) is silent on the reason why Jesus was executed. The Babylonian Talmud written 4 centuries later says : "The Mishna asserts) a crier goes out before (a man condemned to execution). Before him (i.e. when he is being led to execution), yes; but from the outset (i.e. before his conviction), no. But isn't it taught that on Passover Eve, they hanged Yeshu (after he was killed by stoning)? And a crier went out before him (for) forty days, (proclaiming): "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery, incited (idolatry), and lead the Jewish people astray. Anyone who knows (a reason to) acquit him should come (forward) and reveal it on his behalf!" And they did not find (a reason) to acquit him, and they hanged him on Passover Eve." Sanhedrin 43a Was he stoned and hung from a tree. So we have 3 accounts. Marks accounts and its derivatives, a silent Q account, Pauls account that says Ihsou[s] crucified and was buried and the talmud which says he was stoned then buried. He might have been stoned and having survived crucified as to explain his brief longivity on the cross. But the fact of the matter is we have only one certainty in these accounts. Yeshu of Nazara was executed. The Q source makes annanachronistic reference to bearing the cross, but this might have been an expectation, not what happened. I use the motive, opportunity and means. The herodians had a motive for executing Yeshu, the saducees, who the herodians were the major benefactor, had opportunity to seize him and stone him. In the case of Yacov the Pious, he was thrown off the side of tye temple and stoned extra-judicially. Pauls description does not male it clear whether he was hung from a tre or stoned, and the Herodians make have just paid pilot crucify him so the the high priest was not accussed of killing him. That jesus was stoned for turning a football field full of tables in the market is legend at best myth at worst. On the name of Peter and Yeshua. There is no person named Saint Peter or Jesus Christ in the greek New Testament. The word Paul uses is Cephas who was Simeon. Petras is the greek translation. Paul uses the Name Ihsou Xristos. The s follows stand alone male names. S you can say Yesus of Nazara or yeshuchristos but it would not be grammatically correct to say Yesus-Christos. Is the word Yeshu or Yeshua correct. This is problematic and deals with the complex history of galilee. The problem begins with the LBAC and the decline of Assyria and advance of Aramean petty kingdoms. There were names in the assyrian empire that were the equivilent of Yeshua and they probably mixed into the northern kingdom, but as the kingdom fell assyrian culture infiltrated the region where the dominant language was Aramaic. But galillee maintained a separate dialect, probably reflective the phonecian/paleo hebrew spoken in the region at the time. And so the Babylonian talmud takes note of the various ways Galilleans mispronounce words making the meaning ambiguos. Natzrat is the name of Yeshu_'s hometown but they it bore out as Nazara in the Q source. So it seems likely within the galillean cliche they called him Yeshu, but he might have referred him self to outsiders as Yeshu' (arabic fricative ending) and so its not so simple, since english substitutes an "a" for an arabic frictative, but the galilleans probably dropped the fricative most of the time. I would argue that the names meaning "Yahweh Saves" is debatable. What about Yeshu as a Myth? lets be frank the real question is about the mythification of Jesus. Even the Talmudic account seems to point to Rabbi's conflating other period characters with Jesus, as it appears the authors of the gospels also appear to do. And so the critical assessment of Jesus removes just about everything written originally in the gospel of Mark and those textual derivatives. This leaves essentially the Q source, the authentic Pauline epistles, and the epistle of James. As we examine the Pauline epistles we see Paul is driven by his mysticism. James is driven by piety as a demonstration of faith, not so much about the divinity of Yeshu. The Q source tells us a rabbi-like teacher who is training his students how to work toward the kingdom of heaven on earth. We cannot extract much credible historical evidence about the philosphy of Yeshu other than. 1. He was Jewish and at least in what he thought the law was, that one should remain pious toward the goals of the law. 2. He was a mystic and put a premium on prayer in isolation. 3. He followed apocalyptic notions 4. He believed that service to the poor and disenfranchised was a means of bringing about the coming kingdom.
Yahweh is from the Samaritans. John 4:22 Samaritans had their own temple! Within the region of Samaria, in the city of Sychar, was Jacob’s well. This was the location of Jesus’ conversation with the Samaritan woman, who asked, “Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?” (John 4:12). Later in the conversation, she brought up a centuries-old controversy: “Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem” (verse 20). “This mountain” is a reference to Mount Gerizim in the central Samaritan highlands, the place where the Samaritans had built their own temple, which they considered the true temple of God. John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.
@@strappedfatman7858 The Assyrians destroyed Samaritan religion, most scholars contend that their holy text are derivatives of the Jeish texts of the 4th and 5th century BCE. More over there is no evidence of a Yahweh cult in the levant before the 10th century CE, there is evidence of a prototype cult among the bedoins of the Aravah and more eastern peoples, the Egyptians called the Shasu. By the 9th century this cult had spread.
@@Darisiabgal7573 2 Kings 17:27 Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Send there one of the priests whom you brought from there; let him go and dwell there, and let him teach them the rituals of the God of the land.” 28 Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the Lord. 29 However every nation continued to make gods of its own, and put them in the shrines on the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities where they dwelt.
@@Darisiabgal7573 Is Yahweh a Samaritan word? The word they have transliterated from YHVH as “Yahweh” is actually a Samaritan word and pronunciation. Not a Hebrew word at all. This is why it does not fit Hebrew naming and language rules. It is also used in ancient Roman Latin, it entered into religion from Samaria and the Samaritan faith.
@@strappedfatman7858 YHWH is first identified in the region loosely associated with Edom, or to say more corrected, it was found near edomite regions where bedoins traveling back and forth from the western arabian peninsula would have stopped and traded. "The oldest known inscription of the Tetragrammaton dates to 840 BCE: the Mesha Stele mentions the Israelite god Yahweh. Of the same century are two pottery sherds found at Kuntillet Ajrud with inscriptions mentioning "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah". A tomb inscription at Khirbet el-Qom also mentions Yahweh. Dated slightly later (7th century BCE) there are an ostracon from the collections of Shlomo Moussaieff,[full citation needed] and two tiny silver amulet scrolls found at Ketef Hinnom that mention Yahweh. Also a wall inscription, dated to the late 6th century BCE, with mention of Yahweh had been found in a tomb at Khirbet Beit Lei." Kuntillet Ajrud "Kuntillet Ajrud (Arabic: كونتيلة عجرود) or Horvat Teman (Hebrew: חורבת תימן) is a late 9th/early 8th centuries BCE site in the northeast part of the Sinai Peninsula. It is frequently described as a shrine, though this is not certain" "Kuntillet Ajrud is in north Sinai; carbon-14 dating indicates occupation in the period 801-770 BCE, and the texts may have been written c. 800 BCE. As a perennial water source in this arid region it constituted an important station on an ancient trade route connecting the Gulf of Aqaba (an inlet of the Red Sea) and the Mediterranean, and was in addition located only 50 kilometers from the major oasis of Kadesh Barnea." Kirbet al-Qom "Khirbet el-Qom (Arabic: خربة الكوم) is an archaeological site in the village of al-Kum, West Bank, in the territory of the biblical Kingdom of Judah, between Lachish and Hebron, 14 km to the west of the latter." "The inscription from Tomb 2 is associated with a "magic hand" symbol, and reads: "Uriyahu the honourable has written this Blessed is/be Uriyahu by Yahweh And [because?] from his oppressors by his asherah he has saved him [written] by Oniyahu" "...by his asherah ...and his asherah"" Ketef Hinmon "The two silver scrolls were uncovered in 1979 at Ketef Hinnom, an archaeological site southwest of the Old City of Jerusalem, and were found to contain a variation of the Priestly Blessing, found in Numbers 6:24-26. The scrolls were dated paleographically to the late 7th or early 6th century BCE" "[Top line(s) broken] ...] YHWH ... [...] the grea[t ... who keeps] the covenant and [G]raciousness towards those who love [him] and (alt: [hi]m;) those who keep [his commandments ... ...]. the Eternal? [...]. [the?] blessing more than any [sna]re and more than Evil. For redemption is in him. For YHWH is our restorer [and] rock. May YHWH bles[s] you and [may he] keep you. [May] YHWH make [his face] shine ... [Bottom line(s) broken.]" And so its likely that Yahweh was worshipped in Samaria, the bible states that close to the time of of the assyrian crisis, they had stated to follow Ba'al (Hadat). More likely Hadad worship was forced upon them by the Arameans. So its only a brief period of worship, from roughly the start of the 10th century to the end of the Eighth century, after which Israel, those who remained fell back into polytheism. After their defeat by the Assyrians the god of the land would have been Asshur. The this bring up Judea, Judea had a prototypic Yahweh in Bethlehem by the name of Yahoo, mentioned in the song of deborah, it fell short of the qualities of Yahweh, which was a desert volcano wisdom god, not just a wisdom god. So its likely when Yahweh reaspears in the 10th century the weakened god of Bethlehem, having been taken by the philistines, just merged seemlessly into Yahweh and their priest became the priests of Yahweh. Again the distinction of Yahu (Ea) and Yahu (Yahweh) is muddled because of the way the later scribes whitewashed the old gods out of the deuteronomistic texts. They are in the text, but there is not alot of intelligble theology we can gleam from them. However, the first identification of Yahwe_ is from the Egyptian inscripts of the 13th century BCE and they identify a god in the same place as Kuntillet Ajrud, Beth Lahmu, also from the middle bronze age would have been a site of Ia/Yahu worship. So these two sites archaeological would take precedence over Shechem.
It's good to hear an acknowledgement that not only is there no (undisputed) Roman account of Jesus from the first century, but also that the references after that are references to Christians primarily, only speaking of Jesus in the terms which they would have received from the Christians, themselves. And certainly, I commend Dr. McClellan for this acknowledgement. What I don't understand is the leap from this to, "it's more likely that there was a historical Jesus." I mean, I'm sure there was a lumberjack somewhere named Paul, but does that make him the "historical Paul Bunyan"? I'm sure there was a farmer's son named Clark who moved to the big city to become a newsman out of his support for truth, justice, and the American way, but does that make him the "historical Superman"? We know the exact identities of the women who modeled for the Statue of Liberty, but does this make either or both of them the "historical Lady Liberty"? We can even point to a Jesus ben Sira as "a historical Jesus of the Second Temple period who was renowned for his wisdom teaching," but virtually no one would say that he is the "historical Jesus" on which they speculate that the Gospels were based. You can go out today, right now, and find New Religious Movements where people talk about gods and godesses as if they were as real as anyone walking down the street. But in deeper conversation, they will also acknowledge that personifying an idea is a method of _making_ it more personal, and not an acknowledgement of some literal external reality. So what makes anyone think Saint Paul wasn't doing the same thing when he was riding his horse to Damascus and had a vision of offering an alternative messianic movement to the more Zealot Christianity of the time?
If you want to talk about "historical jesus" the first thing you need to do is define what that means. Dan just defined it (for purpose of this video) as a guy named jesus who was an apocalyptic preacher and executed by Rome. Basically nobody talking about "historical jesus" means to include angels and miracles etc. Why would anyone care? Because it's history. It's also an interesting mystery.
@@scambammer6102but unless you can tie any such "historical jesus" to the one that the group of heretical Jews we call Christians claim is their messiah you must consider matters such as these.
First: One key difference is asking what there was to gain in fabrication. Inventing Superman is plausible as a means to sell comic books. Inventing a messianic figure who was killed unceremoniously for the sole purpose of becoming an oppressed cult in a world where that can and will get you killed is... Less than likely. Second: Do you accept that Alexander of Macedon was a real historical figure? He was claimed to be of divine descent, he supposedly did many exploits that could be called miracles... And today we have no body. The majority of extant attestations to his existence come from after his death. Compare that with how much less evidence can we reasonably expect to have for any given commoner from the frontier of the Roman Empire.
@@AndrewFullerton nobody knows who "invented" Christianity or what their motive was. It can be assumed that most of the people who practiced Christianity believed it was true. But that is not evidence of its validity. People believe all kinds of stuff that isn't true. There's tons of physical evidence of Alexander, zero physical evidence for jesus. Also, some ancient accounts of Alex were intended to be factual. The Gospels are religious texts intended to preach religion. Factual accuracy is not their priority. Paul's letters were intended to be factual accurate, but he had no personal knowledge of jesus outside of his "visions".
@@misswillow9915 Anyone ‘religious’ by default, is worthless. Granted we have a different culture to you in the west but in China we throw them into re-education camps. For good reason.
@chaiman3761 The Ice Age and Sword! How about the myth of King Arthur after The Roman Empire made Christianity the State Religion. By using their image the Cross and teaching of the Trinity! Sun, moon and star worship. Revelation 17:17 The skies became darkened. In AD 536, the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The 2nd seal of Revelation 6:5 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword. With the land bridge frozen to the Americas. Britain became the 7th Kingdom of Revelation. So what year did this Kingdom become the Wild Beast with two horns. The false prophet and wild beast arrived with the Great War of 1914.
3:47-3:56 i disagree. i think it’s absolutely certain he existed and Paul and josephus provide firm documentation of it. Just because Paul is “in the bible” doesn’t mean it’s not firm documentation. Also, Jesus certainly agitated both the jewish and roman elites. Beyond that is speculation.
@@emptyhand777 i’m aware that the testimonium flavianum was interpolated by a later christian (potentially eusebius). However, most scholars think that the passage retains an authentic account of Jesus. Also, book 20 section 197 (mirroring Gal. 1:19) mentions Jesus as well.
@@danielgibson8799 - I'll need to reread Josephus, all I recall is a mention of Christians who follow the teaching of Jesus. I often wonder why Josephus never mentioned the 3 hours of darkness, earthquake, temple tapestry being torn in two, and the tombs of Jerusalem opening and the dead interacting with the people. Those events would have happened when Josephus was a toddler, you'd think his parents or aunts and 7ncles would have mentioned those events to him at some point.
Didn't Pontius Pilate write a letter to Emperor Tiberius about Jesus? And also didn't Flavius Josephus reference Jesus in his book Antiquities of the Jews? Plus isn't there a first century synagogue in Capernaum with the name of Yeshua which is Jesus's real name on the floor?
The letter from Pontius Pilate, from what I can find, is the name of many forgeries from the 4th century onwards, written by Christians. The first of the Josephus references is almost universally recognized as later insertions by Christian copyists, probably with a core original comment from Josephus about Christians and their religious leader. The later two are just describing that, like Dan says, there was a religion with John the baptist as a figure and they followed Christ. The probably authentic parts have notable differences from the Gospels and their timeline of events. It's also important to note that Josephus was a Jewish captive of the war, and was forced to write for the Roman court, not a Roman official in any sense. The synagogue floor one, well you are literally just talking about a form of the name Joshua, popular then as it is now. If anything, it just might show someone was an early follower of Christianity but it still isn't a Roman reference.
I chuckle when some Christians insist on a particular pronunciation or rendering of a Bible name. Do folks debate the "correct" rendering of Harry Potter?
Love, compassion, and prayers are all we truly need. I have faith God is bringing me out of my situation. As a single mom, things have been tough on me. My husband passed years ago. I’m all alone. Both of my sons are autistic. I’m overwhelmed. Father God hear my prayers. Since covid I’ve been struggling to support my children and myself but my faith in GOD is still strong! I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I’ve been struggling since. I declined because of my health conditions lupus, and heart disease. Since losing my job I’ve been waitressing I love it but I’m not making nearly enough to to get by. Even as I constantly struggle to pay my rent. And I constantly struggle to provide groceries for my children! I’m choosing to keep faith. Walking with faith is the most important thing us christian’s must do. So as I struggle I Thank you Heavenly Father and I thank you Jesus I will keep faith! I know a blessing is coming! ❤
If you invent all of the characters, you can say they did anything. You must not read much. Did you also happen to think Daenerys and Aragorn were real?
Why is Italy the shape of a boot. Adam wasn't deceived. The ground did produce thorns and thistles because Jesus worn the crown of thorns and thistles. God told Adam the prophecy of the resurrection. Genesis 3:15 The Sacrifice of Jesus was the first part of the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will bruise him in the heel.” Satan the Dragon and the Wild Beast the 6th Kingdom executed Jesus on their image the cross. It was the Roman Empire of Italy that is also the shape of the heel. So the first part of the prophecy is complete . Satan bruised Jesus in the heel.
@@strappedfatman7858 so many claims and no evidence you are a typical theist not special not interesting not different not truthful not honest not a person of character. just normal average silly gibberish.
Facts : there is no mention of Jesus found anywhere in world history from any historical record outside of the Christian bibles from that era.. Pliny the elder the main Roman historian makes no mention of Jesus or Paul or Apostles or Miracles anywhere. Josephus was born after Jebus died and is a known later insertion by church fathers. No historian mentions? Egyptian Persian Asian Afrikan India Rome ??? A man god comes back to life heals blind walk on water etc etc? One must pause....... I would ask why Church fathers paint all people of their bible as white Europeans? There is no Yeshua in Tanakh Hebrew Scripture as the" Messiah". It is a new messianic Christian fraudulent movement saying Yeshua which is not even spelled correctly. This baseball cap dude is spreading antisemitic myths also. תודה רבה שלום
History changes fast. What if you was standing in front of Mount Rushmore! Instead of Egypt! A Gog of Magog Genocide! The syllables Ha-lle-lu-yah or “Halleluyah” were in use by the Muskogee and Algonquin-speaking nations of the east and southeast coast before colonists. There are two independent recorded instances where the word Halleluyah was in use in Native towns that had never encountered Europeans. Thomas Thorowgood(1) in the 1650s recorded Halleluyah and other syllables similar to the Tetragrammaton in use by the Powhatan. One hundred years later, James Adair(2) made the same observations while living for 40 years in Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Creek towns in the 1700s. Thorowgood had encountered with the Native Tetragrammaton variations. Vocables are a combination of syllables that are themselves compositions of the same core group of syllables; Yah, Weh, Yo, Heh, Wah, Ha, Ho, Hoi. It is interesting however that the names for God between these two geographically separated groups are similar. Yoweh sounds like a variation of Yahweh. Yo-he-wah sounds like a variation of Je-ho-vah. And Muskogee Yah, is analogous to the use of Yah in Hebrew. All three of those vocable sets are names for God in Muskogee and Tsalagi, just as their counterparts in Hebrew are names for God. As for the origin of the word Halleluyah in Native towns beyond the frontier in Adair’s life, in places that had never encountered a European, is history lost to genocide and time.
The altar and pillar! Isaiah 19:19 Revelation 5:5 The Land of Nod, Was the sign of Cain a Lion. Cain worshipped Jehovah God. He offered sacrifices to him. So did Jehovah forgive him by marking his land with the Lion. The Mark of Cain. Genesis 4:13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “The punishment for my error is too great to bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land,* and I will be hidden from your face; and I will become a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth, and anyone who finds me will certainly kill me.” 15 So Jehovah said to him: “For that reason, anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times.” So Jehovah established a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him would strike him. 16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden. Genesis 4:24 If 7 times Cain is to be avenged, Then Laʹmech 77 times.” Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.23 “That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves.
@@strappedfatman7858 we don't accept the new testament.. It curses Jews and Torah laws. There are hundreds of variant versions of the Christian bibles none used match the original koine Greek new testament or Hebrew Scripture sources. Thanks
@@strappedfatman7858 we dont have " old testament". We have Torah Tanakh Talmud. Very different than Christian old testament. There are several names of HaShem ( G-d) we do not use in casual convo. Peace out
While I lean towards a historical man named Jesus I am also pretty certain that he did very few if any of the deeds attributed to him in the new testament.
I have noticed that when historians say “Jesus existed” most people hear “the Jesus Christ who walked on water and healed the sick existed” and especially some atheists get their knickers in a twist. That’s not the case. When historians say they believe (because it’s the more likely explanation) that Jesus existed they mean the rabbi from Galilee with a relatively small following of peasants who got himself executed by the Romans and upon whose figure, in the following decades, legends accreted.
It was rather normal in Greek Roman culture to attribute divine parentage and extraordinary deeds to remarkable individuals so it’s far from surprising that Jesus followers used the same tropes, first orally and then in writing, to convey to listeners how great their deceased leader was.
Thanks again Dan! It’s amazing how many people think they know what they are talking about and are simply wrong. But so strongly convicted of their position! Aren’t we funny critters 😂
Dan tips his toe into the historical jesus debate lol. Can we expect a video explaining why you think it is likely that an historical jesus existed?
He seems way off base on the history of the Jews and Rome. Because of the antiquity of their religion Jews were allowed to sacrifice and pray for Caesar's well bring rather than *to him*. I think he's conflating the Roman invasion with the Seleucid era.
Thank you
Yet again, I'd love to see Dan go over the work of Richard Carrier.
Buying into any sort of historical Jesus requires buying into a set of assumptions that I don't think are well supported.
Dan taking a look at the arguments for why this is the case would be pretty interesting... if not well outside of the scope of this channel.
Richard Carriers work relies on a number of extremely conjectural and wild assumptions and is thus rejected by all critical scholars who actually work within this field
Richard Carriers work also depends deeply on the use of Bayesian analysis, which is something deeply misapplied when used for historical analysis, and indeed has only been to my knowledge used elsewhere once, by someone arguing for the historicity of Jesus’s miracles
@@PasteurizedLettuce "extremely conjectural and wild assumptions"
Have you actually read the book?
"rejected by all critical scholars who actually work within this field"
No it's not. Ya don't need to lie just because you don't like him. It uh, makes you look a little deranged.
@@PasteurizedLettuce Ah, so you haven't read the book. Ya coulda just said you were pulling stuff out of your a** in your first comment.
@@PasteurizedLettuceThis is complete nonsense. On Carrier's website he has a list of over 40 scholars with relevant credentials who have stated that it is at least plausible that there was no historical, flesh and blood Jesus. Of course it's still a minority position, but it's completely false to state that no New Testament
scholar lends any support to his thesis. And you're equally wrong about his use of Bayes Theorem, as other historians have written about its potential usefulness for helping to ascertain cerrain historical probabilities.
But keep on hating, gomer, if it makes you feel good.
Dan, what is your opinion of richard carriers mysticism argument?
White guy? Check
Baseball cap worn backwards? Check
Talking pish about Jesus? Check
Being gently 'slapped' down by Dan? Check
That's a bingo! 🤘
😂👍
McSlap, a lil less than a Hitchslap ?
Please make a video talking about casting out demons and healing the sick of Todd White, Dan mohler, torben sondergard and more I would like to know your thoughts.
I would take some different critiques and answers.
First was Yeshu of Nazara killed by the Romans as a traitor.
So if we are using the two source hypothesis, one source (Q) is silent on the reason why Jesus was executed. The Babylonian Talmud written 4 centuries later says :
"The Mishna asserts) a crier goes out before (a man condemned to execution). Before him (i.e. when he is being led to execution), yes; but from the outset (i.e. before his conviction), no. But isn't it taught that on Passover Eve, they hanged Yeshu (after he was killed by stoning)? And a crier went out before him (for) forty days, (proclaiming): "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery, incited (idolatry), and lead the Jewish people astray. Anyone who knows (a reason to) acquit him should come (forward) and reveal it on his behalf!" And they did not find (a reason) to acquit him, and they hanged him on Passover Eve." Sanhedrin 43a
Was he stoned and hung from a tree.
So we have 3 accounts. Marks accounts and its derivatives, a silent Q account, Pauls account that says Ihsou[s] crucified and was buried and the talmud which says he was stoned then buried. He might have been stoned and having survived crucified as to explain his brief longivity on the cross. But the fact of the matter is we have only one certainty in these accounts. Yeshu of Nazara was executed. The Q source makes annanachronistic reference to bearing the cross, but this might have been an expectation, not what happened.
I use the motive, opportunity and means. The herodians had a motive for executing Yeshu, the saducees, who the herodians were the major benefactor, had opportunity to seize him and stone him. In the case of Yacov the Pious, he was thrown off the side of tye temple and stoned extra-judicially. Pauls description does not male it clear whether he was hung from a tre or stoned, and the Herodians make have just paid pilot crucify him so the the high priest was not accussed of killing him. That jesus was stoned for turning a football field full of tables in the market is legend at best myth at worst.
On the name of Peter and Yeshua.
There is no person named Saint Peter or Jesus Christ in the greek New Testament. The word Paul uses is Cephas who was Simeon. Petras is the greek translation. Paul uses the Name Ihsou Xristos. The s follows stand alone male names. S you can say Yesus of Nazara or yeshuchristos but it would not be grammatically correct to say Yesus-Christos.
Is the word Yeshu or Yeshua correct. This is problematic and deals with the complex history of galilee. The problem begins with the LBAC and the decline of Assyria and advance of Aramean petty kingdoms. There were names in the assyrian empire that were the equivilent of Yeshua and they probably mixed into the northern kingdom, but as the kingdom fell assyrian culture infiltrated the region where the dominant language was Aramaic. But galillee maintained a separate dialect, probably reflective the phonecian/paleo hebrew spoken in the region at the time. And so the Babylonian talmud takes note of the various ways Galilleans mispronounce words making the meaning ambiguos. Natzrat is the name of Yeshu_'s hometown but they it bore out as Nazara in the Q source. So it seems likely within the galillean cliche they called him Yeshu, but he might have referred him self to outsiders as Yeshu' (arabic fricative ending) and so its not so simple, since english substitutes an "a" for an arabic frictative, but the galilleans probably dropped the fricative most of the time. I would argue that the names meaning "Yahweh Saves" is debatable.
What about Yeshu as a Myth? lets be frank the real question is about the mythification of Jesus. Even the Talmudic account seems to point to Rabbi's conflating other period characters with Jesus, as it appears the authors of the gospels also appear to do.
And so the critical assessment of Jesus removes just about everything written originally in the gospel of Mark and those textual derivatives. This leaves essentially the Q source, the authentic Pauline epistles, and the epistle of James.
As we examine the Pauline epistles we see Paul is driven by his mysticism. James is driven by piety as a demonstration of faith, not so much about the divinity of Yeshu. The Q source tells us a rabbi-like teacher who is training his students how to work toward the kingdom of heaven on earth. We cannot extract much credible historical evidence about the philosphy of Yeshu other than.
1. He was Jewish and at least in what he thought the law was, that one should remain pious toward the goals of the law.
2. He was a mystic and put a premium on prayer in isolation.
3. He followed apocalyptic notions
4. He believed that service to the poor and disenfranchised was a means of bringing about the coming kingdom.
Yahweh is from the Samaritans. John 4:22 Samaritans had their own temple! Within the region of Samaria, in the city of Sychar, was Jacob’s well. This was the location of Jesus’ conversation with the Samaritan woman, who asked, “Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?” (John 4:12). Later in the conversation, she brought up a centuries-old controversy: “Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem” (verse 20). “This mountain” is a reference to Mount Gerizim in the central Samaritan highlands, the place where the Samaritans had built their own temple, which they considered the true temple of God. John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.
@@strappedfatman7858 The Assyrians destroyed Samaritan religion, most scholars contend that their holy text are derivatives of the Jeish texts of the 4th and 5th century BCE.
More over there is no evidence of a Yahweh cult in the levant before the 10th century CE, there is evidence of a prototype cult among the bedoins of the Aravah and more eastern peoples, the Egyptians called the Shasu. By the 9th century this cult had spread.
@@Darisiabgal7573
2 Kings 17:27 Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Send there one of the priests whom you brought from there; let him go and dwell there, and let him teach them the rituals of the God of the land.” 28 Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the Lord. 29 However every nation continued to make gods of its own, and put them in the shrines on the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities where they dwelt.
@@Darisiabgal7573
Is Yahweh a Samaritan word?
The word they have transliterated from YHVH as “Yahweh” is actually a Samaritan word and pronunciation. Not a Hebrew word at all. This is why it does not fit Hebrew naming and language rules. It is also used in ancient Roman Latin, it entered into religion from Samaria and the Samaritan faith.
@@strappedfatman7858 YHWH is first identified in the region loosely associated with Edom, or to say more corrected, it was found near edomite regions where bedoins traveling back and forth from the western arabian peninsula would have stopped and traded.
"The oldest known inscription of the Tetragrammaton dates to 840 BCE: the Mesha Stele mentions the Israelite god Yahweh.
Of the same century are two pottery sherds found at Kuntillet Ajrud with inscriptions mentioning "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah". A tomb inscription at Khirbet el-Qom also mentions Yahweh. Dated slightly later (7th century BCE) there are an ostracon from the collections of Shlomo Moussaieff,[full citation needed] and two tiny silver amulet scrolls found at Ketef Hinnom that mention Yahweh. Also a wall inscription, dated to the late 6th century BCE, with mention of Yahweh had been found in a tomb at Khirbet Beit Lei."
Kuntillet Ajrud
"Kuntillet Ajrud (Arabic: كونتيلة عجرود) or Horvat Teman (Hebrew: חורבת תימן) is a late 9th/early 8th centuries BCE site in the northeast part of the Sinai Peninsula. It is frequently described as a shrine, though this is not certain" "Kuntillet Ajrud is in north Sinai; carbon-14 dating indicates occupation in the period 801-770 BCE, and the texts may have been written c. 800 BCE. As a perennial water source in this arid region it constituted an important station on an ancient trade route connecting the Gulf of Aqaba (an inlet of the Red Sea) and the Mediterranean, and was in addition located only 50 kilometers from the major oasis of Kadesh Barnea."
Kirbet al-Qom
"Khirbet el-Qom (Arabic: خربة الكوم) is an archaeological site in the village of al-Kum, West Bank, in the territory of the biblical Kingdom of Judah, between Lachish and Hebron, 14 km to the west of the latter."
"The inscription from Tomb 2 is associated with a "magic hand" symbol, and reads:
"Uriyahu the honourable has written this
Blessed is/be Uriyahu by Yahweh
And [because?] from his oppressors by his asherah he has saved him
[written] by Oniyahu"
"...by his asherah
...and his asherah""
Ketef Hinmon
"The two silver scrolls were uncovered in 1979 at Ketef Hinnom, an archaeological site southwest of the Old City of Jerusalem, and were found to contain a variation of the Priestly Blessing, found in Numbers 6:24-26. The scrolls were dated paleographically to the late 7th or early 6th century BCE"
"[Top line(s) broken]
...] YHWH ...
[...]
the grea[t ... who keeps]
the covenant and
[G]raciousness towards those who love [him] and (alt: [hi]m;)
those who keep [his commandments ...
...].
the Eternal? [...].
[the?] blessing more than any
[sna]re and more than Evil.
For redemption is in him.
For YHWH
is our restorer [and]
rock. May YHWH bles[s]
you and
[may he] keep you.
[May] YHWH make
[his face] shine ...
[Bottom line(s) broken.]"
And so its likely that Yahweh was worshipped in Samaria, the bible states that close to the time of of the assyrian crisis, they had stated to follow Ba'al (Hadat). More likely Hadad worship was forced upon them by the Arameans. So its only a brief period of worship, from roughly the start of the 10th century to the end of the Eighth century, after which Israel, those who remained fell back into polytheism. After their defeat by the Assyrians the god of the land would have been Asshur.
The this bring up Judea, Judea had a prototypic Yahweh in Bethlehem by the name of Yahoo, mentioned in the song of deborah, it fell short of the qualities of Yahweh, which was a desert volcano wisdom god, not just a wisdom god. So its likely when Yahweh reaspears in the 10th century the weakened god of Bethlehem, having been taken by the philistines, just merged seemlessly into Yahweh and their priest became the priests of Yahweh.
Again the distinction of Yahu (Ea) and Yahu (Yahweh) is muddled because of the way the later scribes whitewashed the old gods out of the deuteronomistic texts. They are in the text, but there is not alot of intelligble theology we can gleam from them.
However, the first identification of Yahwe_ is from the Egyptian inscripts of the 13th century BCE and they identify a god in the same place as Kuntillet Ajrud, Beth Lahmu, also from the middle bronze age would have been a site of Ia/Yahu worship. So these two sites archaeological would take precedence over Shechem.
Deleted my clock account, now follow you on insta and here. Love to learn instead of being told what to believe.
It's good to hear an acknowledgement that not only is there no (undisputed) Roman account of Jesus from the first century, but also that the references after that are references to Christians primarily, only speaking of Jesus in the terms which they would have received from the Christians, themselves. And certainly, I commend Dr. McClellan for this acknowledgement.
What I don't understand is the leap from this to, "it's more likely that there was a historical Jesus." I mean, I'm sure there was a lumberjack somewhere named Paul, but does that make him the "historical Paul Bunyan"? I'm sure there was a farmer's son named Clark who moved to the big city to become a newsman out of his support for truth, justice, and the American way, but does that make him the "historical Superman"? We know the exact identities of the women who modeled for the Statue of Liberty, but does this make either or both of them the "historical Lady Liberty"? We can even point to a Jesus ben Sira as "a historical Jesus of the Second Temple period who was renowned for his wisdom teaching," but virtually no one would say that he is the "historical Jesus" on which they speculate that the Gospels were based.
You can go out today, right now, and find New Religious Movements where people talk about gods and godesses as if they were as real as anyone walking down the street. But in deeper conversation, they will also acknowledge that personifying an idea is a method of _making_ it more personal, and not an acknowledgement of some literal external reality.
So what makes anyone think Saint Paul wasn't doing the same thing when he was riding his horse to Damascus and had a vision of offering an alternative messianic movement to the more Zealot Christianity of the time?
If you want to talk about "historical jesus" the first thing you need to do is define what that means. Dan just defined it (for purpose of this video) as a guy named jesus who was an apocalyptic preacher and executed by Rome. Basically nobody talking about "historical jesus" means to include angels and miracles etc. Why would anyone care? Because it's history. It's also an interesting mystery.
@@scambammer6102but unless you can tie any such "historical jesus" to the one that the group of heretical Jews we call Christians claim is their messiah you must consider matters such as these.
First: One key difference is asking what there was to gain in fabrication. Inventing Superman is plausible as a means to sell comic books. Inventing a messianic figure who was killed unceremoniously for the sole purpose of becoming an oppressed cult in a world where that can and will get you killed is... Less than likely.
Second: Do you accept that Alexander of Macedon was a real historical figure? He was claimed to be of divine descent, he supposedly did many exploits that could be called miracles... And today we have no body. The majority of extant attestations to his existence come from after his death. Compare that with how much less evidence can we reasonably expect to have for any given commoner from the frontier of the Roman Empire.
Dan is just arguing against confusing conjecture (what you just wrote) with data-derived conclusions
@@AndrewFullerton nobody knows who "invented" Christianity or what their motive was. It can be assumed that most of the people who practiced Christianity believed it was true. But that is not evidence of its validity. People believe all kinds of stuff that isn't true.
There's tons of physical evidence of Alexander, zero physical evidence for jesus. Also, some ancient accounts of Alex were intended to be factual. The Gospels are religious texts intended to preach religion. Factual accuracy is not their priority. Paul's letters were intended to be factual accurate, but he had no personal knowledge of jesus outside of his "visions".
When Pilate washes his hands, is that related to the ritual cleansing of oneself of miasma?
On behalf of Australia, I apologise, some of us actually know our biblical history the best we can that fits within scholarly consensus
And ironically that's part of the problem. Although yes, this worthless specimen doesn't get a pass.
@@ErraticFaithwhy worthless specimen?
@@misswillow9915 Anyone ‘religious’ by default, is worthless. Granted we have a different culture to you in the west but in China we throw them into re-education camps. For good reason.
let's see it
Is Jesus in the same realm as Robin Hood in terms of evidence?
Is there evidence of King Arthur!
@@strappedfatman7858 tall tales
@chaiman3761
The Ice Age and Sword!
How about the myth of King Arthur after The Roman Empire made Christianity the State Religion. By using their image the Cross and teaching of the Trinity! Sun, moon and star worship. Revelation 17:17
The skies became darkened. In AD 536, the first of three massive volcanic eruptions ushered in a ice age. It coincided with an epidemic of the plague, the decline of the eastern Roman Empire, and sweeping upheavals across Eurasia. The 2nd seal of Revelation 6:5 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.
With the land bridge frozen to the Americas. Britain became the 7th Kingdom of Revelation. So what year did this Kingdom become the Wild Beast with two horns. The false prophet and wild beast arrived with the Great War of 1914.
2:30 Admission of error? So rare.
I like his accent.
“That’s a flat out lie” :02 would require the mythicist to know the preponderance of evidence points to Jesus’ existence.
Booyaksha! 👋
3:47-3:56 i disagree. i think it’s absolutely certain he existed and Paul and josephus provide firm documentation of it. Just because Paul is “in the bible” doesn’t mean it’s not firm documentation. Also, Jesus certainly agitated both the jewish and roman elites. Beyond that is speculation.
Yawn. Take the sky daddy rubbish elsewhere.
Google Josephus Christian Interpolation
@@emptyhand777 i’m aware that the testimonium flavianum was interpolated by a later christian (potentially eusebius). However, most scholars think that the passage retains an authentic account of Jesus. Also, book 20 section 197 (mirroring Gal. 1:19) mentions Jesus as well.
@@danielgibson8799 - I'll need to reread Josephus, all I recall is a mention of Christians who follow the teaching of Jesus.
I often wonder why Josephus never mentioned the 3 hours of darkness, earthquake, temple tapestry being torn in two, and the tombs of Jerusalem opening and the dead interacting with the people. Those events would have happened when Josephus was a toddler, you'd think his parents or aunts and 7ncles would have mentioned those events to him at some point.
Data not Dogma 👍👍👌👌👍👍
Didn't Pontius Pilate write a letter to Emperor Tiberius about Jesus? And also didn't Flavius Josephus reference Jesus in his book Antiquities of the Jews? Plus isn't there a first century synagogue in Capernaum with the name of Yeshua which is Jesus's real name on the floor?
The letter from Pontius Pilate, from what I can find, is the name of many forgeries from the 4th century onwards, written by Christians. The first of the Josephus references is almost universally recognized as later insertions by Christian copyists, probably with a core original comment from Josephus about Christians and their religious leader. The later two are just describing that, like Dan says, there was a religion with John the baptist as a figure and they followed Christ. The probably authentic parts have notable differences from the Gospels and their timeline of events. It's also important to note that Josephus was a Jewish captive of the war, and was forced to write for the Roman court, not a Roman official in any sense. The synagogue floor one, well you are literally just talking about a form of the name Joshua, popular then as it is now. If anything, it just might show someone was an early follower of Christianity but it still isn't a Roman reference.
Dan slaps down rubbish again 😂😂😂
I chuckle when some Christians insist on a particular pronunciation or rendering of a Bible name.
Do folks debate the "correct" rendering of Harry Potter?
Oddly, yes. There are people who strongly prefer the British/Canadian printings to American.
@@TheFranchiseCA Wow. Not surprised.
That account must have been from secret Josephus’ Jewish war.
I'm with Richard Carrier on this subject, his book is the best breakdown on the probability of an historical Jesus ever walking this earth.
Love, compassion, and prayers are all we truly need. I have faith God is bringing me out of my situation. As a single mom, things have been tough on me. My husband passed years ago. I’m all alone. Both of my sons are autistic. I’m overwhelmed. Father God hear my prayers. Since covid I’ve been struggling to support my children and myself but my faith in GOD is still strong! I lost my job for declining the vaccine. I’ve been struggling since. I declined because of my health conditions lupus, and heart disease. Since losing my job I’ve been waitressing I love it but I’m not making nearly enough to to get by. Even as I constantly struggle to pay my rent. And I constantly struggle to provide groceries for my children! I’m choosing to keep faith. Walking with faith is the most important thing us christian’s must do. So as I struggle I Thank you Heavenly Father and I thank you Jesus I will keep faith! I know a blessing is coming! ❤
so how did "the romans" execute a dude that never existed?
With non existent soldiers.
If you invent all of the characters, you can say they did anything. You must not read much. Did you also happen to think Daenerys and Aragorn were real?
Why is Italy the shape of a boot.
Adam wasn't deceived. The ground did produce thorns and thistles because Jesus worn the crown of thorns and thistles. God told Adam the prophecy of the resurrection. Genesis 3:15
The Sacrifice of Jesus was the first part of the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will bruise him in the heel.” Satan the Dragon and the Wild Beast the 6th Kingdom executed Jesus on their image the cross. It was the Roman Empire of Italy that is also the shape of the heel. So the first part of the prophecy is complete . Satan bruised Jesus in the heel.
@@strappedfatman7858 so many claims and no evidence you are a typical theist not special not interesting not different not truthful not honest not a person of character. just normal average silly gibberish.
@@darrendelaney8161
Then why build an Altar and Pillar!
Isaiah 19:19 Revelation 5:5
Facts : there is no mention of Jesus found anywhere in world history from any historical record outside of the Christian bibles from that era..
Pliny the elder the main Roman historian makes no mention of Jesus or Paul or Apostles or Miracles anywhere.
Josephus was born after Jebus died and is a known later insertion by church fathers.
No historian mentions?
Egyptian Persian Asian Afrikan India Rome ???
A man god comes back to life heals blind walk on water etc etc?
One must pause.......
I would ask why Church fathers paint all people of their bible as white Europeans?
There is no Yeshua in Tanakh Hebrew Scripture as the" Messiah".
It is a new messianic Christian fraudulent movement saying Yeshua which is not even spelled correctly.
This baseball cap dude is spreading antisemitic myths also.
תודה רבה שלום
History changes fast. What if you was standing in front of Mount Rushmore! Instead of Egypt!
A Gog of Magog Genocide!
The syllables Ha-lle-lu-yah or “Halleluyah” were in use by the Muskogee and Algonquin-speaking nations of the east and southeast coast before colonists. There are two independent recorded instances where the word Halleluyah was in use in Native towns that had never encountered Europeans. Thomas Thorowgood(1) in the 1650s recorded Halleluyah and other syllables similar to the Tetragrammaton in use by the Powhatan. One hundred years later, James Adair(2) made the same observations while living for 40 years in Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Creek towns in the 1700s.
Thorowgood had encountered with the Native Tetragrammaton variations. Vocables are a combination of syllables that are themselves compositions of the same core group of syllables; Yah, Weh, Yo, Heh, Wah, Ha, Ho, Hoi. It is interesting however that the names for God between these two geographically separated groups are similar. Yoweh sounds like a variation of Yahweh. Yo-he-wah sounds like a variation of Je-ho-vah. And Muskogee Yah, is analogous to the use of Yah in Hebrew. All three of those vocable sets are names for God in Muskogee and Tsalagi, just as their counterparts in Hebrew are names for God. As for the origin of the word Halleluyah in Native towns beyond the frontier in Adair’s life, in places that had never encountered a European, is history lost to genocide and time.
The altar and pillar!
Isaiah 19:19 Revelation 5:5
The Land of Nod, Was the sign of Cain a Lion. Cain worshipped Jehovah God. He offered sacrifices to him. So did Jehovah forgive him by marking his land with the Lion. The Mark of Cain.
Genesis 4:13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “The punishment for my error is too great to bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land,* and I will be hidden from your face; and I will become a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth, and anyone who finds me will certainly kill me.” 15 So Jehovah said to him: “For that reason, anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times.”
So Jehovah established a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him would strike him. 16 Then Cain went away from before Jehovah and took up residence in the land of Exile, to the east of Eʹden.
Genesis 4:24 If 7 times Cain is to be avenged,
Then Laʹmech 77 times.”
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.23 “That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves.
@@strappedfatman7858 we don't accept the new testament..
It curses Jews and Torah laws.
There are hundreds of variant versions of the Christian bibles none used match the original koine Greek new testament or Hebrew Scripture sources.
Thanks
@@MitzvosGolem1
What was God's name in the old Testament.
@@strappedfatman7858 we dont have " old testament".
We have Torah Tanakh Talmud.
Very different than Christian old testament.
There are several names of HaShem ( G-d) we do not use in casual convo.
Peace out
The KJV Bible is encoded with mathematical information.
1+1+1 = 1 LOL
Now we know why a Math book is so Sad!
It is full of problems! Lol!