Audiophile Grounding Box Myth or Magic with a intro to power system safety grounding
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- čas přidán 11. 03. 2023
- In this video 'Audiophile Grounding Box Myth or Magic with an intro to power system safety grounding', I'll give my opinions and views on the Audiophile Grounding box (or ground box). I'll first start with my views on the safety ground as part of the power system. #Groundingbox #AudiophileGroundingbox #groundbox
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Every Audiophool knows that if it's expensive enough,
it must be necessary to pristine sound reproduction.
There's so much truth to that. Its like someone came up with a joke that they could sell a box of dirt to audiophiles - and someone said - yes - you really could. So a joke turned into a product;)
@@KissAnalog I know a dealer that doesn't use any power line conditioners. He only uses ground boxes. He says they make the sound smoother and each model sounds different. And these are called ground boxes because they attach to ground, not because they simulate ground. They work on piezoelectric, paramagnetic, diamagnetic and ferromagnetic properties. There are forum threads all over the place where people build their own so you don't have to spend a lot of money on them.
@@bunsw2070 it’s mind over body, and when the only judge of what you’re hearing is yourself, you can’t scientifically prove it. If you were to take a measurement of the signal with and without the “ground box,” it would be exactly the same. You would not find any difference in the signal integrity no matter how good or cheap of an oscilloscope you use. Take that audio and let someone listen to it, they will imagine a difference.
So true!
@@bunsw2070 this would be simple to measure but there are zero measurements.
Thanks Eddie ! Another great one. I do like the new pad a lot. Has a nice flow about it when your drawing and explaining at the same time. Makes it much easier to follow along with you.
Up here in Canada, certain provinces use the actual earth ground between poles to carry any earth current or differences when power is in the Rural areas. In other words the neutral is not run between each pole. This being said, when a Rural home is feed off of the system, the neutral ran from the service pole to the home is also ran back a pole or two with ground rods going to earth ground and bonds attached at these other poles along the distribution line. I am to believe that this is to save wire in some of the farming areas where the next homes may be 10 or 30 poles away. In Urban, from the best of my knowledge, the neutral is ran along with the primary and is bonded and grounded at every bug pole, or if no bug happens within 4 poles, then at every 4th pole the neutral is bonded to the earth ground which runs down the pole at that location. Just like the one you showed in your video. Well, I worked in and around this stuff most my life too and am still alive to talk about it as I am now retired. Yes, I want to know what is in that earth or ground box !!!! Noise is such a devious fellow. And has some very cool ways of showing up. Not sure if that box is smart enough to catch the real noisy culprit. Now while on the subject of audiophile and grounding...... whew !!! where to start ! ? Crazy the days of old amps with just two prongs on the plugs and no ground or third prong. You could actually plug those bastards in backwards and energize the chassis as on many of them the chassis was part of the circuit as far as I;ve seen from older stuff. I always cut that bad boy off when ever I see one like that and install a proper 3 prong and, making sure the polarities are correct, ground the chassis and then finish the update which sometimes requires removing all the contacts to the chassis and providing an alternate , isolated equipment ground for the proper running of the instrument. Don't see too many of these anymore which is good for saving folks from getting shocks. sometimes, fatal i'm sure . Whew ! that was way too much typing. While on the subject of audiophile sounds,..... The best thing I love ( or hate with tongue in cheek ) is the person who comes in and says right away " oh.... ya !!! That is so much better !!! " .... Hmmmm, .... Well some changes are so apparent that you do get that , ... holly cow ! moment. But,... for the most part, changes on my system can sometimes take a few albums and many hours of listening to see if I've actually improved anything.
Thanks for all this great feedback! Those 2 wire systems where the Neutral is tied to the chassis is so dangerous!
I think it is crazy how many times a thing can be added to a system and there's a holly cow moment. How many times can that happen? I'd think the system would have to be pretty crappy to make that many improvements.
TRUE, read my above post playing w various op amp chips on the analog line-level output section (after the DAC) on 3 Nakamichi CDP-2A CD-players I have. At least i have multiple units to compare changes i make in side-by-side blind listening tests by switching between 2 identical players that are playing 2 identical CD's at the same time, and only 1 piece of circuitry is different between the 2 units. The 3rd player remains completely stock OEM as a reference of what the original un-modified CDP-2A sounded like.
"You could actually plug those bastards in backwards and energize the chassis as on many of them the chassis was part of the circuit as far as I;ve seen from older stuff."
Yep. Transformerless, tube-type radios. The chassis was wired directly to one of the prongs on the power connector. Hopefully neutral. If not, watch out! From that came the well deserved fear of tossing such a radio into a bathtub filled with water and perhaps a human. It is common nowadays for an old-timer to drive one of those through an isolation transformer. Also in those days oscilloscopes tended to "float" the chassis to avoid the sparks that fly clipping the ground lead onto the equipment being tested. Now it is better to float or isolate the device under test but if that's not possible, float the scope. My Fluke 123 battery operated scopemeter is inherently isolated and with a thick rubber case and deep seated shrouds on the meter probes basically impossible to contact the "ground" side of the probe or chassis.
Glad you mentioned potential. Potential difference is where many problems start and is the answer to many questions
Thanks - I think you are so right!
HI Eddie, excellent presentation, well-expressed, THANK YOU 🙏
I appreciate you!
Sir what happened to the full amplifier build you did sir
I did get it back and had a video that I was going to post, but there was a technical issue, so I'll have to do the video again. I'll do it soon.
Haha idk if you ran any of wires but the wire labeled “Guest shitter” is hilarious 18:40
LOL I didn't run those but some of the other labels are just as funny;)
Hey Eddie thanks for doing this video. I was wondering. You said no ground between the power pole and your house. What happens to the cable internet wires that are grounded at your box and probably grounded at the pole? The reason I ask is that my internet started to go flakey. The service man found some burnt rg6 shielding close to the pole. What do you think? Lightning strike possibility? Thanks
Thanks great question! Cable boxes are not connected to the power lines but they are grounded to the grounding conductor to keep the shield (touchable metal) at the same potential to reduce shock hazard. The bad shielding is most likely do to long term install and corrosion. This is something that everyone should pay attention to so that no one gets shocked by touching the cable. BTW, there can be current traveling on that shield as it is the return conductor - so potentially dangerous.
Your Channel, is great. It's a inspiration for a lot of people. Please stay positive Eddie. I'm truly sorry for your loss I'm sure Rick would be proud of the tribute that you made for him in your way. He will live on in your heart.
Thank you for your kind words! I appreciate you!
It's good to start with a solid foundation! Bravo
Thanks so much!
Excellent explanation about earthing and grounding. It's important to know these basics
Thanks! I agree! I thought about making a short rant video but I thought it was a good chance to try and teach something useful;)
Eddie, this is awesome, thanks for sharing! May the "force" be with you!
Thanks so much!
Great video! When someone asks me about ground, I always ask which ground. If I get a deer in the headlights look. I give them a list. Earth, Power, Digital or Analog. That normally leads to a similar discussion to your video.
Thanks! I’m sure you run into that discussion more often than you would hope;)
Hi Eddy, I never heard about a ground box before, but thanks for the cool video about it. On a similar note, have you heard about ByBees? Made by Bybee Technologies LLC. Anyway, their website says that they are quantum purifiers. They look a bit like film capacitors but you are supposed to put them in series with your speaker, AC, and DC power supply and they do wonders to your sound. I would love to see a video about that where you (perhaps literally) pick it apart.
Thanks for your feedback and the tip on ByBees. Definitely looks worth a look;)
Great presentation, and I totally agree. 👍
Thanks so much!
Have you ever heard one?
Is there any way you could measure the claimed results in the ground box?
Great question. What are the claim results? They are all subjective. There’s nothing in Specification.
@@KissAnalog Hi. I don't have one, but from what I read the claims are about noise reduction. A lower noise floor. Why would that not be possible to measure?
Measure the system with and without the box.
If it worked - it could be measured. The fact that they can not show measurements should tell people something - but some Audiophiles just want to 'believe'.
@@KissAnalog But they all claim a lower noise floor.
Surely you can measure for that?
Just measure the system with and without the box.
Why would that not be a possibility?
@@theaudiophilebarista2424 No one shows any measured claims - including the vendors selling these. If a measurement could be made they would certainly show it. ‘They’ can claim anything when people simply believe it. Physics would say that this can not work. I’d love to have someone send me a box to take measurements. This is one of the biggest scams IMHO.
When, at 14, I first got interested in electronics, I didn't quite know what "ground" meant, so I looked up the definition in TWO electronics dictionaries, I had. BOTH said it meant an electrical connection to the EARTH. It was only through experience that I figured out that it was a common connection, or connection to the chassis.
It is almost worse now. There are good sources (one would think) that have poor definitions and do not understand the fundamentals. Most of the time GND is just a return path, but sometimes it really is a 'Safety GND' and that will be tied to chassis and also tied to Earth GND. But there are times that the return in a DC circuit (maybe RF) and will be tied to chassis which is not tied to Earth ground.
It took a while to get there but I did stay till the end. Thanks for the explanation of earth ground and the grounding stakes, that was useful - but do us a favor and sign up for drawing classes !! I still remain a skeptic of such things and of Synergistic Research company despite a respected acquaintance saying some of their products have improved his system…. I’ll see and hear in June when i visit him in Vancouver
LOL - thank you! There is absolutely no truth that these things can make one bit of difference. If they could - especially at the price - they would show measurements. No one can do a double blind test and show that they make a difference. It just has no bases in science or engineering. Sad that these people pray on the placebo affect to sell their products.
I saw some audio file who had some electricians who supposed to deal in audio file stuff?? They took his earth connection stake from the ground what was on the side of his house and put it on his front lawn right in front of his electrical pole going to the mains I think this is a no-no!! I always thought that the electrical earth ground has to be away from any supply pole by quite a distance, were they right or not? For one if the pole got struck by lightning all you doing is creating a loop and lightning could travel up the earth. What's your opinion!
Thanks for the feedback! Yes I agree with you - that sounds like a real no-no! The ground rod needs to be very close to the service entrance (where the power comes into the house and where the ground wire to the ground rod gets shorted to Neutral). This sounds like a very serious safety issue! Also, it will do absolutely nothing for the audio. So, these electricians do not understand electronics and how Audio works - or EMI - or even safety if I understand correctly. This needs to be corrected before someone gets hurt - or worse. Someone who understands electric code (NEC) needs to look at this. This is why I spent 25 min talking about the safety aspect of grounding and why it is important not to remove any of these safety ground provisions for the sake of Audio (which it makes no difference).
This is one of the funniest videos I have seen in a long, long time. Just to be clear, everything Ed said was true and verifiable from physics and Electrical Engineering standpoint.
LOL thank you!
Videos are just getting better . love the video lol ... Grounding boxes.
Thanks so much!
Audiophile stuff mostly comes down to psychologic aspect. Sound quality differs quite much across equipment but at some point when equipment is good enough it is quite hard to distinguish differences. I did DAC test at local audiophile club. Usual A/B testing involves changing cables and software settings to change DAC. Between such changes are some time of silence. In my test I configured MPD on Linux system to simultaneously output to three different USB DAC-s. Outputs from these DAC-s were connected to passive input selector. This kind of setup made it possible to change DAC during playback without interrupting playback. Also all DAC-s were almost perfectly in sync. We discovered that DAC-s with adequate analog part implementation were actually more similar than they were when tested using traditional method.
You are very correct about much being psychological and hard to test also....see my above comment about op amps, you can't even determine which ones are REALLY drop-in replacements for eachother (they are all NOT just because they have 8 pins)...mis-information abounds, making things hard to test correctly in the firstplace. As for side-by-side comparisons, if the modifications are being done on the CD players themself (like i'm doing now), i load 2 identical CD's on 2 identical players and press play at the same time on both, then toggle back and forth between the 2 inputs on the receiver. If it's DAC's your comparing, i use 2 identical players that both have S/PDIF digital outputs that can go to each DAC input, then play 2 identical CD's in lockstep the same way, toggling between the receiver inputs for my comparison. I'm lucky that my 1984 Marantz SR930 receiver has fast electronic input-select buttons that make switching between up to 3 inputs almost seamless.
I added another ground rod on my house.
I've had 3 items die from lightning strikes and two of those were modems connected to the phone line.
I've also heard of people using salts (poured on the ground and watered in) to make the ground rod conduct better.
Great feedback! Data lines like phone lines are very susceptible. If you can get an isolation device or a surge protection device for the phone line that should help. Is your second ground rod placed close to the first - and/or is it connected to it?
@@KissAnalog Second ground rod is about 8ft away and it's tied to the original ground wire. I used #12 romex to connect the two.
Thanks for the info on the phone line. I live 5 feet from a state university in OK and I can't get on the same fiber optic lines they have.
I'm still on copper...lol
Excellent video here. Amir from Audio Science Review did one very similar to this where he referenced the work done by a respected college professor. Great information!
Thank you for your feedback! Amir is someone I respect and one that uses real engineering and equipment - with the knowledge to know how to test.
6:00 Ground steak is pretty good with mushroom gravy 🙂 Yeah, I abuse the earth ground symbol. At radio frequencies, the earth is usually too far from the station to be particularly useful.
One building I worked in, 25 stories, had an impressive common ground system. Super heavy copper risers and busbars on each floor.
I also worked in the Navy and we had a situation where the three phase power was nowhere near balanced and consequently the modular building ground interconnections were carrying rather a lot of current. This produces a voltage drop *on the ground* such that equipment in one room had about a 2 volt difference in ground potential as compared to the other building. This is pretty close to the noise immunity of TTL circuits so rather a lot did not work very well. Technicians did some corrosion control and bonding. Never did get the phases balanced but at least reduced the *ground loops* .
LOL - thanks for your great feedback!
Could the energy be dissipated by heat? Vibration of the crystal structure? Maybe it works with RF noise somehow, rather than power frequencies?
Great question!! To create a piezoelectric circuit a voltage potential has to be placed across the crystal. A wire or piece of metal laying in the crystals is unipolarity - no potential voltage, so I can’t see this working. If it did they could measure the vibration and prove it does something.
@@KissAnalog Unfortunately you can't measure the effect due to triboluminescence resonant depolarization of the Zobel network which throws your Theil inductor out of whack which intern is gonna damage the Miller cap...just a no win situation.
LOL - that's pretty creative;)
@@andymouse Wait...couldn't you just run your bridge-gate rectifier through a phase-linear oscillator and pass that over to a Flux Capacitor?
@@michaelbeckerman7532 Of course !! didn't think of that !! :)
Hi! Have interesting theme for you. Some youtubers use alternative power sources for their Fluke meters. For example Evione Group use rechargeable Duracell and Energizer batteries. Mjlorton use huge capacitors for his Fluke 287. Alberto Ignacio use even cooler thing - external rechargeable Steren 6v 12 Ah. The problem that normal rechargeable AA battery has 1.2V instead of 1.5. Fluke doesn't recommended it. Perhaps Fluke with 4.8V could make not correct measurements? What do you think about it? Can you compare it?
Fantastic question!!! It can actually be unsafe to use huge caps! Rechargeable batteries might be ok, but better just to buy a better meter that doesn’t need these things or can be purchased with a rechargeable battery option like the FLIR. Some people use Fluke because they think it makes them look more professional. IMHO it shows the opposite, it shows the inability to be confident in better tech - because of a name.
@@KissAnalog Hi Eddie! Rechargeable battery issue is harder than it seems. The problem in 1.2V instead of recommended 1.5 by Fluke. For some equipment it is not problem like flash lights, toys or multimeters which made for it as you mentioned.
187/189 manual contains very interesting thing:
"To avoid false readings, which could lead to possible electric shock or personal injury, replace battery as soon as the low battery indicator appears."
I'm not sure that it works with rechargeable batteries, or somebody even made some official tests, but definitely that should be research.
Wow! You did really do video of ground box, fantastic! Will noise come out from an equipment's ground and go to other equipment? How to prevent it? Expensive Hi-Fi power filter claim that they can stop the noise from ground, confusing.
Yes, thanks! Was that you that recommended I do this? I should have written your name down.
Hi Eddie, thanks for your honest opinion about the ground boxes. watching from Sweden🙏🙏
Thanks so much!
@@KissAnalog thanks to you Sir.
I used to catch a lot of flack because I hated wearing those ground straps while working on my bench. and so I didn't. I got into the habit, early on, of touching the bench oscilloscope BNC connector (sans probe), or the spectrum analyzer's BNC connector, every time I sat back down at the bench, to discharge any static charge that I may have accumulated while away from my prototyping/design bench. Manufacturing employees that observed my "strapless" behavior, while over at our engineering area, always yapped about me because I wasn't wearing a ground strap and it drove me nuts trying to explain that I was discharged by holding the scope BNC connector for a three count every time I sat back down at my workbench... People... Half of them didn't even understand why they were required to wear a grounding strap on the production floor in the first place...
Thanks for the great video and your effort consumed in making it Eddie! Fred
I agree that many don't even understand why they wore the straps. But that is why we make the big EE bucks and they don't. 😁
Great feedback! I usually touch a power supply and don't wear clothes that will generate a charge easily.
Measurements show that these grounding boxes actually increase noise by upto 30db more rather than reduce it,the cable used with these things acting as an antenna!
I am not surprised as the extra cabling - it is hard to know. Can you point me to the test data?
@@KissAnalog Measurements at Audio Science Review.
It would be great if you could test some switching power supplies for DC to see if they are adequate for audio.
That would be helpful.
Thank you! Some high-end companies have moved to switchers because they are better for audio and lower noise (no 60Hz hum;).
@@KissAnalog yeah my benchmark gear has all switching power supplies and of course top notch engineering. It’s the way to do things. Linear power supplies aren’t bad at all, but they are older tech and bulky . No real need for them now, well , unless they can’t design a good switcher. Lol
Thanks so much !
Best mental image for me is imagining the bird on the power line. It’s not being shocked because it’s at the same potential as the HV. When that bird comes in contact with another line or earth, it becomes the “ground” in that the equalization of potential is occurring through it.
Thanks for that! That is an awesome explanation;)
Wow, I hadn't heard of this absolute insanity.
Thanks! I hadn't either until someone asked me to do a video on it. When I looked into it - I was amazed and astonished that it was a real thing that people paid money for.
Can't wait till you toss in GFCI breakers and ground loops in the mix, that should confuse them really good.
LOL I did avoid this part as I was trying not to go down too many rabbit holes. But, this does point out a really important fact that tells the story that there should not be any ground current;)
Don't forget combination GFCI/GACI breakers.
The most important thing I took away from this video was the measurement and where it was made. The history of the telegraph (using Morse code) and how they learned to eliminate the second conductor was also helpful.
Thanks for your feedback!
Earthing, grounding, bonding, neutral, return, etc are so widely misused (as your examples illustrate) that their meaning has to be clearly defined in any engineering specification. It is really odd that the electrical and electronic industries have evolved into this, but it is what it is. I find myself using the terms of whatever group or organization I happen to be conversing with. It's annoying, but there is so much vertical integration and tribal 'knowledge' in each area that it will likely never get straightened out.
Well said! Thanks for the great feedback!
the theory behind the crystals dissapating electricity/noise is because they are piezoelectric ... black tourmaline one of the strongest ones, furutech NCF advertises black tourmaline as "special crystalline" i think, as tourmaline is also able to create (in theory) negative ions and infrared light, how both could potentially affect things idk
Yes, I love crystals and what they might be able to do. First issue is that no RF in the ground (or any other noise) can relate to the sound of audio. If this could help in any way it would be measurable in so many ways. First, you could measure the vibration or even the sound of the piezo effects. (But to create the Piezo effect you can not simply pore crystals into a box with conductors. This is such a bad joke and is actually insulting that they think people are so gullible. These things are measurable - even if not for audio purposes. It is the highest form of snake oil.
I read in a forum that most electricians in the US just use two grounding electrodes and don't measure anything. The inspector will always pass it if there are two electrodes. Proving that the resistance is 25 Ohms to the inspector is too much of a pain in the butt.
I think there is a lot of truth to that, but I think it is even worse than that - i don't think there's any inspection in most cases and a single ground rod is installed.
i wish i could give you more than one thumbs up thank you
Thanks so much! The comment really helps;) I appreciate you!
That's why I trust you for the most suitable person to make a good switching power supply and the review. Maybe give a few tips about easy way to ground in a building, all ground is almost electrical ground, someone claim that it's not REAL ground and suggest find a water pipe but in a commercial building only toilet have those pipe 😵
Thanks! I appreciate you!
Thanks for busting the myth.
You bet! Thanks so much!
some guy making these kind of boxes by themselves have a huge audiofile systems... which looks a bit ridiculous searching to improve gears that are already at the top. So maybe they search for something that don't exist, more than technical gears and it's where science reach religion and beliefs. I think it's more a psychological condition of a eternal unsatisfied customer searching for a divine musical restitution... thank you for your really exhaustive explanation. I was here to suppress a mass or grounding noise from a plastic chassis turntable! Cheers from France.
Great to hear from our friends in Fance! Thank you - and I have to agree with your assessment;)
I wonder if it's the people making these boxes who need professional help, or all the people buying them while they make lots of money...ha ha.
Can you do one on dac sound signature? Lol.
Or he could save his time and just tell you its a waste of time LOL !!
@@JasonLeaman I knew that About the cables but I loved that video
Great video as always :) I like your drawings, even if they're just quick sketches they help, as did seeing the electrical box. IDK where the guest shitter is, but I bet it's got audiophile-grade earth connections :P Also Earth in a box was a great joke, will consider it if I ever buy a boat.
I just made a network switch where I replaced all female RJ45 ports with male RJ45 connectors. It looks alien and inappropriate. After i've made up some female-to-female cables, I think my network will be unhackable, because no one will have compatible cables. Genius or stupid?
Thanks for the great feedback! I like your cable plan;)
Tak!
Thanks so much for your generosity!
Talk about MYTH, you should do one about the supposed interchangeability of various audio OP AMPS...there is more MYTH than fact out there! I see your video about COUNTERFEIT op amps, so do one about INTERCHANGEABILITY please.
I don't know of any other op amp chips that would be definetely SAFE to interchange in place of the 5532, other than this LM4562, for line-level signals. I have plugs installed in both players to make for easy changing of these chips, BUT putting the wrong op amp chip in there could damage the CDP-2A player. It seems only substituting bipolar chips for bipolar chips is the safest bet, but you hear of people substituting JFET chips in place of bipolar devices. Furthermore, the Burson V5i hybrid device claims to be a direct drop-in replacement for many bipolar and JFET chips....if such is the case, then all those many chips must be drop-in replacements with EACHOTHER, right??...this cannot be a 1-way-door, where the V5i replaces many, BUT those many are not interchangeable with eachother....something is wrong here!
I need to test this out and see what I can find.
Heh, heh... I won't give names, places, or dates, just in case OSHA is spying, but....When I worked as a Radio/TV Engineer, we called those AC ground plug adapters "ground busters," that we'd employ, to enable the 465 'scope to be used with the chassis "hot." :)
LOL we did the same and some called them cheater plugs;) Actually many labs I have worked will isolate the scopes with these plugs.
I'm an RF guy. Noone, but noone, can ever convince me that a conductor is not an inductor :)
LOL well said:)
"can ever convince me that a conductor is not an inductor :)"
There is a way to do it (mostly) and it is seen sometimes in wirewound resistors where you don't want inductance. Take a suitable length of insulated resistance wire, halfway of its length fold it back on itself, then this doubled and maybe twisted wire is wound around a form. The current travels back on itself canceling the magnetic field hence also inductance.
I thought that the CE mark in regards to Made in China meant 'Certified Export' (exporters are registered for foreign exchange control reasons) so it would be extremely dangerous for people to assume that it also means C. E. Mark (EU standards compliance)... The Importer of such products would be legally liable in most countries...
No I think people joke or make fun of the mark but it does actually does imply that the meter is built to that safety standard. So jokes aside - you are correct any issues these companies would be liable. So if the company is a real company then they know the risk that they take with these self certified marks of safety.
If they have a box of crystals Ed then I have my carbon fiber nanotube platinum weave gold inlaid ' Volume Adjust Glove' to sell them LOL!!!....cheers.
Can I get one? LOL Thanks!!
thats why in EU we have an protective earth relay .
Great point!!
Hey! do you know where I buy a box of rocks? LOL🤣
This really has me thinking of all kinds of ways to make a lot of money - but then I realize I'm not that kind of person... ;)
29:00 it's a wireless ground, a technology that Aliens use to ground there flying saucers 🤣
Yes you are right - but I didn't want to let that info out;)
I can do the same job as that box using only MY MIND.
Great video about earth! However I think those boxes are not meant to be quasi ground or replace your main ground but run paralell. Also, I think those are not just any crystal stones, they use minerals that resonate or generate heat near electromagnetic fields, like ferroelectric crystals that are also used in aerospace industry. I’m not an advocate of these boxes but I think this video was not really covering the real usage and theory of such “solutions”. I would have invited someone who believes that it works and explain the science behind it (if there is any😂)
Thanks for your feedback! As you say - I think they are trying to use it as some with some electromagnetic field coupling to crystals. However, the noise or any type of electricity will not flow through the wire as there is no circuit path. This could only work if the wire was some antenna and the box was the load to the antenna. But there is no science here - and no one selling these - although at high prices - can or will show any science. So it operates on the belief system. Simple as that.
@@KissAnalog Thank you for the answer. Also, great videos, I appreciate if someone with such knowledge takes his time to educate others.
If only an audiophool company would do a debate video with you. You could make them look so stupid.
I’d love the chance to ask solid questions. I’ll probably never get a sponsor, but I’d rather be honest and depend on the viewers to recognize the truth;)
Normal there should be only one connection between N and Ground. At this Point you split to N and PE. Behind this connection there should no connection between N and PE.
Thank you! Yes, this is typically referred to as the 'service entrance' and is the only place allowed to have the N and PE bonded. This is done for safety.
I've heard about this "grounding box" myth many years ago and thought it was (is) one of the stupidest things I ever heard. It's right up there with divining rods.
One thing I don't believe you mentioned was the adoption of polarized plugs as a safety issue. I have some really old test equipment in metal cases predating the adoption of polarized plugs and wondered if I should replace the cords on these instruments with 3 prong cords
LOL. But hold on - the Divining rods might actually work or can’t be proven useless as easy;) The 3rd prong does add safety, but if the equipment wasn’t designed for it than it could be an issue. If it was designed before the new 3 prongs came about then maybe it would be safer, but you would need to, at the very least, check to be sure that the neutral is not tied to chassis. It’s a mixed bag.
@@KissAnalog Thanks Eddy, my equipment was designed with the ac input power galvanically isolated from the chassis (save for a capacitor), so I'm thinking it is safe to use.
Regarding divining rods, the water table is a subdued replica of the topography of the land. What would happen if you went out in your row boat with your divining rod and tried to use it from your boat ? Hope you can swim :)
A box of dirt is potentially the dumbest audiophile gadget I have ever heard of.
Smoothing the edges of CDs is a close rival, but it doesn't sound AS dumb.
So true! Great feedback!
Don't forget the Pet Rock...we could make a lot of money on this!
Damn Duder, Sparky , he just asked a question . Not the histroy of your life and electricity histroy. Ok your a Engineer what train company ?
Sorry - are you asking from another comment? Not sure what your question or point is?
Sure. Play that way.
Tourmaline is a Piezoelectric crystal it turn's electricity into motion like a piezoelectric speaker and the opposite motion to electricity like a piezoelectric microphone, isn't this Physics our is it Magic?
Thanks for bringing this up. A Piezoelectric circuit needs voltage applied - placing a wire next to Crystal does not create a circuit. So where is the piezoelectric circuit? This is like placing a match in a glass of gasoline - nothing happens unless the match is lite. If these things worked - it would be simply easy to measure the vibrations and show them in action. But they do not work. I should have brought this up - it would’ve been an easy way to explain how science can be proven wrong - easily.
Expensive line cords? On the other side of your wall is plain old romex power cable!
Exactly! Thanks for your comment!
Would love to know how a 1m power cord can change the properties of electricity that’s travelled 100’s of miles over in many cases is ancient conductors can suddenly be clean just because you used an audiofool power cable
Well said!! Then the length of your house with simple basic wires running side by side (not twisted shielded pairs). It is absurd that people think this makes a difference! It proves the placebo affect is real. But then science has proven that time and again.
Magical crystals should be flushed with holy water instead of submerging in river. Has anyone ever tried power supply from Connex Electronic (Hong Kong based I think)? Are these any better than garbage from Aliexpress? Or maybe someone knows some book/publication explaining how to build +/-45V SMPS for an amp?
Thanks - and you are right! A true Audiophile would go to the top for the correct water;) BTW, i'm going to get back on my collab with JAT om designing a SMPS for an Audio Amp. Here's where I started: czcams.com/video/VlSSQV1RXTc/video.html
@@KissAnalog I am sure it will be a PSU of stellar performance! Right now I am reading Self's book on amplifiers, for the second time and slowly drawing schematics of my future amp. I am also going to buy Micsig scope reviewed by you (need to save some money first) so possibly/hopefully your supply will be ready before my amps are. Thanks for great content!
Thanks so much!
An Audiophool and his money will be quickly parted.
LOL - it seems there's many foolish ways to be parted with good money;)
I am Hydtaulics tech that had to start working on the industrial automation equipment.
I have few customers, that have CNC machines acting wonky. They all bonded and “grounded” as usual to a mutual bonding electrode ( and through metal conduits) - but the problem is that “ground” is very noisy itself!
I think they have neutral conductor problems, and the 3Φ diss balance shows up on the bonding/grounding circuit. Also we have sandy soil.
Another problem is - all the sensitive equipment like sensors, transducers, transmitters, cable shielding, PLCs low pass filters etc. - “grounds” to that circuit that is actually very noisy itself.
All my recommendations to hire electrician, check and correct ( if discovered) the neutral conductor problems falls on the deaf ears - for the simple reason of all the 3Φ equipment working OK.
I am currently looking for the solution for this problem.
Thanks for the great feedback! It is true ground can be very noisy and is not this blissful quite place that so many people think. Any unbalanced power on a 3 phase system will have more current on the Neutral. So what I understand is the Neutral actually has to be larger in size than the 3 phase power wires to be sure that there is a good return path in case a bad connection or badly balanced system. We want current returning on the Neutral and not the ground wire.
@@KissAnalog Yes, especially with more and more VFD/Inverter equipment being used - there’s a big push for an oversized neutral.
I'd never heard of ground boxes before this. It's utter BS. Just like special power cables, oxygen free copper speaker cables etc, etc.
When I heard of them, I thought it was a joke - but then I found out that there is competition and they are all expensive. I would not trust anything sold by the companies selling these!!!
Ok, let me play devil’s advocate for a moment.
Your main argument is that this box would not able to discharge and so it doesn’t work. Let’s dig into this. You might know that all airplanes have the static discharge wicks on the trailing edges of the wings. These wicks have multiple metal needles and because of them an excessive charge goes right into the air. Now, what if this tourmaline crystal has some sort of surface irregularity which resembles the tiny conductive needles and therefore it is able to quickly discharge into the air in some similar way?
Thanks for bringing up this interesting idea. Ok so the plane moving thru the air (movement thru a gas) can build a charge. So, building a structure to direct these charges to specific areas protecting the plane. Now these boxes have crystals in a sealed box. There’s nothing to build a potential to attract devious electronic noise to the boxes contents. Some EMI is radiated, but then the crystals would have to be placed in that field, so maybe spreading them on your amp? The wire from this box to the offending noise is a conducted path, but is actually too long and thus inductive so not a good path for noise or EMI. And by calling them ground boxes shows the seller is attempting to make one believe that noise wants to go to ground. Sadly, these people are praying on those with this misconception. But then it also shows the level of engineering these companies have - or don’t have. This is truly snake oil.
Quite possible it can absorb EMI from the air only to put it back in the air.
It just can't do anything and it is too bad that they can sell these things without a single bit of science or measurement involved.
I was thinking the same thing, it could dissipate somehow into the air, but there is not much air in that confined box, the box has no meaningful ventilation, and the box is not conductive...way different than spitting the static out into the high-speed air behind an airplane. I think it's snake-oil.
Hi.
You’re obviously preaching to the converted looking at the comments.
By way of trying to maintain some balance.
I can’t comment on the boxes connected to nothing but I do have experience with additional grounding devices. These are devices that perform, legally, alongside traditional domestic earth (with earth rods stuck in the ground).
Many modern components are double insulated, so don’t have direct connection to earth. These components can have their chassis or the outer area of a spare rca input connected to ground. This can sometimes- not always - radically improve sound. This has been proven with measurements and listening tests and my own experience. I won’t mention any company names but they have videos on CZcams showing this.
This is not snake oil or mumbo jumbo but straight forward electrical fact.
You are one of many audiophile bashing channels so there must be an appetite for it.
Most, if not all, Hifi products are afforded a home trial these days. If they didn’t work they wouldn’t sell. Yes I know some will say, people will just buy anything, that maybe true but not enough to sustain a business.
This is a problem with social media - which CZcams is - that everyone has their say. Even when commenting on a hobby/pastime that they do not even partake in.
It really is simple. If you have even the remotest interest in these devices, listen to them - not others siting in front of testing equipment- and then make your mind up.
Additional system grounding has been around for years. It’s proven and it works.
Thank you.
You want to see the controversy about grounding/bonding etc in amateur radio circles... for a science based hobby it is remarkable how many people have very unsafe systems based on witchcraft. I am in the UK, although physics is the same our house wiring schemes are somewhat different. As for the audiophile community, I turned my back on that perhaps 40 years ago. The magazines peddled so much pseudo science, initially funny but I got tired of it all. Sorry to hear of your bereavements, the last few years has seen a lot of that for many families. Keep up the good work...
Thanks so much! Interesting on how much pseudo science that there is out there. And, I think that is gracious to call it any kind of science;) I appreciate you!
You are correct, audiophile people believe even more folklore and pseudo science than Ham radio people do...at least us Hams TRY to use some real science.
90% of the audiophile world smells like snake oil to me.
Thanks! I think you are correct:)
Good video ground boxes are crap its like fairy dust will make your hifi better
Exactly! Wait - I paid a good money for that Fairy dust:)
I like the audiophiles that say you need an additional earth rod in the ground lol it doesn't matter that it could affect the equipotential earthing of the supply company and result in a fire remember audiophile earth rod is coated with fairy dust or godzilla crystals
Morning 👍👍
I sometimes wonder if these audiophools ever do any proper maintenance on their magical ears or if they think that cleaning them out could remove the wax's magical ability to hear immeasurable differences in the audio.
You could probably make a lot of money selling expensive ear cleaning kits;)
That's why all my cables ear wax infused. And they're very expensive
@@davidkclayton Maybe we're onto something. Remember the guy who was shucking caps and stuffing the guts into wooden cans? He could definitely improve his handiwork by sealing them with earwax that has been gathered from the finest breeds of unicorns.
@@KissAnalog I'd think these snakeoil peddlers wouldn't want to enter the territory of dangerous goods, but now that I see that they're charging high prices for a literal box of rocks that does nothing but defeat safety features, I don't think it will be long before we see silver-plated "audiophile grade" curettes and, eventually, ear mutilation devices.
Removing safety ground.
Removing vents from caps by recanning in sealed wood. I wonder when audiophiles are going to start replacing fuses with gold slugs. It probably wouldn't be too hard to convince them that fuses (especially glass fuses) allow an excess amount of ether to seep into the circuit and restrict the flow of the best electrons.
You are correct...some circuitry IS worthwhile trying to play w modifications to see if you can maybe hear a difference in side-by-side listening (like op amp chips, and the decoupling caps that surround a DAC chip), while other modifications are NOT worthwhile (like switching from a 24-bit DAC to a 32-bit DAC, or going higher than a 48 kHz sample rate, when it's scientifically proven that no human ears can hear differences that small). However, some "golden-ears" convince themselves that they are an exception to science...ha ha.
Luckily we don't need any of this kind of snake-oil "Ground" boxes in Europe... They must be just another one of those American "exceptional" inventions...
LOL - Do you mean it is only the Americans that get sucked into this 'magic' snake-oil? The Audio industry loves this wizardry...
@@KissAnalogYes... Basically because the power supply in Europe works different and we have proper phase and neutral...
For the other side filling a box with sand doesn't provide any real "Earth" connection...!
I've just had something of an epiphany regarding all this audiophoolery. The way I see it, it's just another way for rich idiots to dispose of their money. It would be interesting to know the financial situations of the people selling this stuff; if they need the money more than the people buying it, I don't see a problem.
Thanks for your feedback! I think the people taking advantage are financially fine - but the people that they are taking advantage of are not technically literate. A sham is a shame;)
It's not a problem if gullible customers don't have a problem with it.
@@christopherthomas4592 Exactly! Some people buy holes in the water to throw their money into (I understand these are called "boats"); some throw their money into fancy metal cans they drive around in. Space tourists have recently been throwing some of their money into low earth orbit!
Some of this money actually finds its way back into the rest of the economy, into the pockets of people like you and me, which can't be a bad thing. It's just part of the econosystem.
Well, why talk about a kind of grounding box filled with some magic material???
A local grounding rod for your audio system WILL create a better ground for your audio system which will reduce a lot of noise and make your audio system sound better.
Safety ground and neutral ground wires have some length and increasing impedance with higher frequency. All kind of high frequency noise and specially noise from switching power supplies will make quite a lot of high frequency noise in your grounding wires, but since you normally use the ground wire as reference when measuring you do not see the problem nor the noise.
To be able to see that you need a separate earth ground to your measuring device.
By putting a separate earth ground close to your audio system you get a lower resistance and lower impedance earth which absolutely will reduce noice in your neutral and safety ground for your audio system. So separate grounding systems that actually are connected to a nearby earth grounding rod will give you a lower noise audio system and better sound.
You say that you are some kind of expert and complete misses out on what is important...
Why talk about the magic grounding box? I'm myth busing this nonsense.
Earth ground has NOTHING to do with taking noise out of your system - THIS IS A MYTH. Electrons - that make up that noise have to return in a circuit - the EARTH ground is not part of that circuit! Adding a ground rod for your audio system to improve noise will do nothing - except make it more acceptable to lightning and/or EMP. The Ground Rod will have a much higher impedance than the safety ground back to the panel - where there is a ground rod. The impedance at the ground rod could be less than 25 ohms - but that's if you are lucky. The impedance of the Safety Ground will be closer to 0.1 ohm.
When we experts measure ground for noise - we do NOT use Earth ground as a reference. EMI is measured on all leads - including the ground return. In some cases a current clamp with very high bandwidth is used to measure very small currents - microamps. So leave it up to the experts to design EMI filters and filters in general.
BTW - please do not connect any additional Ground Rods to the Neutral (do NOT tie Neutral to Ground in more than one spot), that is only done at the service entrance where Neutral and Safety Ground are bonded - then tied to a ground rod.
@@KissAnalog Yes, a ground return can have a impedance of 0,1 ohm at low frequency, but what about at high frequencies?
Have you measured the impedance of a normal ground wire at 1 MHz?
Please do before saying that you busts myths. At 10 MHz?
You are at very high impedance at those high frequencies and then the ground return won't be able to sink the noise if it's quite long. Then a short ground wire to a local grounding rod to your audio system will provide a lower impedance and less noise.
This is well known facts, so why ignore it?
www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:999810/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Thanks for your feedback - and you are right that the ground wire will add impedance - especially at 10 MHz - even a few inches. That is one reason the ground wire and ground rod will not do a single thing to help. The wire to the ground rod will be too long. Placing Y caps in an EMI filter have to be placed correctly and with very short leads to do their job.
The chassis is low impedance as it has lots of surface area - as does the conduit running back to your breaker box. So it is an easier argument that the Safety ground back to the breaker panel has lower impedance - as well as much lower resistance. However, there is not much high frequency on these wires anyway - or the FCC would be after the vendor. Products have to pass FCC. I've done this testing and the power supplies that I have designed over the years have all passed easily.
I have spent a lot of time in EMI labs that cost over a million dollars to build - and this noise issue is just not a thing.
The thesis that you included (thank you very much) marks what I am saying. There is no mention of Ground Rods. It is also stated that Protective Grounds purpose is for Safety. And it goes on to say that ground wires are useless to carry high frequencies. Leakage current to ground is also limited by safety requirements. There is no value in adding a ground rod for an audio system - simple as that.
Then you draw the wrong conclusion.
We have to end here and say that we have different views on whats important and what really make a difference.
That's true - mine is based on years of experience and testing in top notch labs across the country.
My goodness that was painful, and in duplicate.
Sorry you didn't like it.
I think what happens is audiophiles run out of conventional ways to improve their sound system, so they look for unconventional ways to improve it which are often wastes of money. I personally know of one guy that buys into this nonsense. He has outfitted his living room with a 16000 watt sound system. Sparing no expense he continues to buy unnecessary upgrades that only he can hear.
Great point! If you have the money - then have fun with it. I did see one box that was a beautifully crafted wood box.
OMG my ears would be bleeding w that much power!
And that explains how about 98% of the high-end audio industry even stays in business today. Effectively "perfect" audio was achieved decades ago, but those companies still need to stay in business and generate cash flow ever year. So, they constantly update and refine their products, always claiming to have made some type of improvement with every single new product launch (even if they really haven't). The two economic concepts that no one ever seems to talk about in the high-end audio marketplace are diminishing marginal utility and conspicuous consumption. If you ever start to mention those two subjects, people start to walk out of the room pretty quickly.
>30min rambling to say its bullshit?!
Well I did place a message inside the first minute telling what time in the video that I give my summary so you could jump to that. But I guess you didn't pay attention - that's why you call it rambling... Sorry.
Single wire earth return power transmission exits and has been used (and is used to this day in some places). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
Thanks - that is true but it is definitely in the minority. Kind of crazy that in this day and age - but there are all types of power systems out there.
👍
My Mentor kiss Anulog
PRODIGY kiss Anulog
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 22:39pm
Thanks Nick!
Tak!
I appreciate you!