I've put hours and hours into building Arc Chamber Mk III this past weekend... and now you're telling me I just need my mother's old Kenwood Chef and a pop-up counter socket??! Pah!
Does it trip a Haeger Single Mod though, that's the real question. Pro Tools might help them narrow it down, and provide that invaluable insight 😂 @@dsesuk
Great video Gordon , the reasons for upgrade of the CU I can agree with , in my opinion CU should never of been allowed to be installed in under stairs cupboards in the first place. But what gets my back up is when some electrician’s lie to their customers by telling them that the existing CU is illegal and dangerous and doesn’t comply with the regulations. Then insist that it has to be replaced. I refer you to the onsite guide page 99 . Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s dangerous or needs replacing or upgrading. Great video as always Gordon 👍
The old Chef, I have one of them in the cupboard. Quite a beast of a machine with more attachments than can be imagined, and I think it has a brushed motor but no AFDD should trip from the arcing on brushed motors and glad to see this wasn't the case here either.
I suppose I am showing my age saying we had one of those mixers. (it got damaged a few years ago while extending the kitchen) Having repaired it in the past the speed control was by two contacts breaking the supply to the motor. One contact moved due to the centrifugal force from a couple of weights spinning around while the other contact was spring loaded from memory with more pressure the faster you wanted the mixer to go. The system finding a happy medium with the centrifugal force balancing the spring pressure. I suppose it worked but produced a lot of sparks so really surprised you got ot to work at all on the AFDD circuit. Maybe a good buy from a second hand shop as a cheap tester for AFDD😂
Familiarity is a word that comes to mind, especially on the consumer end. The double stack units take up less space per way than a 3 phase, however marginal. Also, if by vertical you mean the ways centrally going top to bottom, cable length may have been an issue. Trend it may be, but familiarity I reckon is the key to most of it. Up and down. Rather than left and right being the same depending on which bank... I can just imagine trying to have the conversation with me ol ma with a 3 phase board... Left and right... No. I'd rather rip tarmac off the road in 0 degree weather thanks...
Does the pop-up socket have a filter? It could be a mixture of the noisy triac based speed controller and a filter doing its best to dump all the noise to earth.
I have just replaced my 12 year old wylex 11 way RCBO board for exactly the same reason and because I needed more ways with going all electric. I used a 25 way Hager board with all what you're fitting and fitted a bidirectional RCBO on my existing solar. I live in a small but very well insulated bungalow with solar PV (SE) and solar thermal (SW). I have an Eddi doing the morning shift and thermal doing the afternoon. I dread to think how many ways you need in very large property going forward.
No solar, no car charging. Eco 7 1 bed flat. 15 on peak + 2 for surge 4 off peak + 2 for surge 21+8 way fitted Chap who fitted the boards was just giggling because he thought I was over speccing at first... It did dawn eventually being an electric only - so many places have gas heating and require much less circuitry!
@@T_Perkins I believe his question is , is there a symbol on the device indicating if it is capable of correct operation with current flowing in either direction. I don’t believe there is a symbol as yet that a standard specifies . @Efixx ?
@@ladams5356 now you mention it, I haven't heard of a standard. However, if the schematic is drawn on the device itself, one should be able to determine its operation or reading a technical diagram for it. (I do get the point being made a bit more however) Unfortunately, mobile phone do mean there is a penny pinch in companies to say 'info is available online' rather than trying to describe anything in packaging or on the product that isn't required by law. But yes, I see the point that is being mentioned - I'm not clued up on solar or battery installs as of yet so I assumed that perhaps double pole rcbos would monitor both live and neutral as AC is alternating back and forwards... By that definition double pole rcbos should be able to monitor both incoming and outgoing changes on both live and neutral. That's my forth pence of an assumption! :)
@@T_Perkins while AC ‘will’ flow in and out of the mcb portion some manufacturers leakage architecture uses CT’s which are flow direction consensus and hence detection is inoperable in reverse. If you note AC CT’s are directional 👍
Interesting my suspicion is there's something that's weird in the pop-up socket which is compounded by maybe the additional fix to the cord and motor characteristic?
Tripping AFDD/RCBO - Does your pop-up socket contain a type 2, 2+3, 3 SPD? I've found quite a few instances of surge protected extension leads/multi-gang leads causing nuisance tripping with the SPD threshold voltage decreasing with age/being naturally low, mixed with reactive loads it can be quite an issue.
Will it shite. I have 15 of them (trying them for myself) and never tripped with a dodgy heater arcing away and melting the plug top! Won’t be installing the Hagers for customers.
5:14 - why are these all still rated at 100A? If the main fuse is 100A and you are adding 16A or more, these need to be rated higher - especially when there are multiple DBs running off them
When it comes to RCBOs, they exist in both single pole and dual pole versions, with the dual pole also interrupting the neutral wire on a fault. In what type of earthing system or use case is the single pole deemed insufficient and a dual pole is required?
The magnetron in old microwaves causes havoc with these devices. This is compounded by the fact that many in HMOs where they are mandatory have rubbish old devices running in their rooms causing nuisance tripping. Total nightmare tbh
Yes, filters out old junk. However leads to some heated conversations with landlords/Tennant's and often involves several call-outs before the issue is resolved. Kinda awkward to charge for after charging a fortune for board change with afdd's.
I agree, overhead lines should be type 1. Perhaps tho the overhead lines /transformer are just random B roll and not actually the supply for this property
How come you're eating the cake And Poor Ross is in the cupboard like Harry Potter. I don't see any cake and tea of him FREE ROSS✊️😂 P.S nice work ross👍🏻
@@efixxWould love to see a video of the waveforms you encounter which trigger the AFDD. That would be really useful for everyone Lightening - not dissimilar to lower voltage arcing! - causes I believe wideband RF interference; I don't what waveform aspects these AFDD's trigger on, it could be a waveform shape in the time domain, or a particular spectrum in the frequency domain.
We have the same issues in our home. Some appliances trip the AFDD, but you move it to a different circuit and they are fine. You switch other items off and you can use it on the original circuit. Seems to be electronic devices mixed with electrical devices that causes the tripping. Can use the TV or the hairdryer, but not both together.
I've put hours and hours into building Arc Chamber Mk III this past weekend... and now you're telling me I just need my mother's old Kenwood Chef and a pop-up counter socket??! Pah!
Some say there is a carbon rod in every pop up socket 😉
Just think of the patents Dave 😁
@@efixx There's certainly one in Mk III... whether it works remains to be seen...
All hail the drunken one!
Does it trip a Haeger Single Mod though, that's the real question. Pro Tools might help them narrow it down, and provide that invaluable insight 😂 @@dsesuk
Great video Gordon , the reasons for upgrade of the CU I can agree with , in my opinion CU should never of been allowed to be installed in under stairs cupboards in the first place. But what gets my back up is when some electrician’s lie to their customers by telling them that the existing CU is illegal and dangerous and doesn’t comply with the regulations. Then insist that it has to be replaced. I refer you to the onsite guide page 99 . Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it’s dangerous or needs replacing or upgrading.
Great video as always Gordon 👍
never have* been, not "never of been"
Send it to DSES ...
5:34 Like that clock. 🙂
The old Chef, I have one of them in the cupboard. Quite a beast of a machine with more attachments than can be imagined, and I think it has a brushed motor but no AFDD should trip from the arcing on brushed motors and glad to see this wasn't the case here either.
A classic of British Engineering lives on forever!
@@efixx Unfortunately not the case these recently scraped a 10 yr old washing machine because he motor failed
It’s a neat job and he’s a good electrician too . Great video and equipment too. Learned something today regarding AFDD
Thanks for watching!
The CU does not have to be Instagram ready but is should be Square, straight and Plumb it should be suitably Selected & Erected
I suppose I am showing my age saying we had one of those mixers. (it got damaged a few years ago while extending the kitchen) Having repaired it in the past the speed control was by two contacts breaking the supply to the motor. One contact moved due to the centrifugal force from a couple of weights spinning around while the other contact was spring loaded from memory with more pressure the faster you wanted the mixer to go.
The system finding a happy medium with the centrifugal force balancing the spring pressure. I suppose it worked but produced a lot of sparks so really surprised you got ot to work at all on the AFDD circuit. Maybe a good buy from a second hand shop as a cheap tester for AFDD😂
Great insight thanks - might have to take a closer look at the motor control.
A fellow QLOCKTWO owner , neat install
3:19 - NB. "...the power can flow in the reverse direction." Great to see eFixx getting it right! Too many sparks talk of reverse current.
👍
I dont get the trend for fitting dual stack units, wouldnt a vertical 3 phase one with a single phase conversion kit fitted be easier to work with?
Familiarity is a word that comes to mind, especially on the consumer end.
The double stack units take up less space per way than a 3 phase, however marginal.
Also, if by vertical you mean the ways centrally going top to bottom, cable length may have been an issue.
Trend it may be, but familiarity I reckon is the key to most of it.
Up and down. Rather than left and right being the same depending on which bank...
I can just imagine trying to have the conversation with me ol ma with a 3 phase board... Left and right... No. I'd rather rip tarmac off the road in 0 degree weather thanks...
I really wanted to have a pop up socket installed
But I'm glad we're didn't
But if be really interested to find out what is faulty with it 👍
What an AFDD cliffhanger.
shitty clickbait more like 😠
Does the pop-up socket have a filter? It could be a mixture of the noisy triac based speed controller and a filter doing its best to dump all the noise to earth.
Don’t think so but we’ll investigate
I have just replaced my 12 year old wylex 11 way RCBO board for exactly the same reason and because I needed more ways with going all electric. I used a 25 way Hager board with all what you're fitting and fitted a bidirectional RCBO on my existing solar.
I live in a small but very well insulated bungalow with solar PV (SE) and solar thermal (SW). I have an Eddi doing the morning shift and thermal doing the afternoon. I dread to think how many ways you need in very large property going forward.
can’t see them getting smaller
No solar, no car charging. Eco 7 1 bed flat.
15 on peak + 2 for surge
4 off peak + 2 for surge
21+8 way fitted
Chap who fitted the boards was just giggling because he thought I was over speccing at first... It did dawn eventually being an electric only - so many places have gas heating and require much less circuitry!
3:09 Are there any markings to determine which manufacturers RCBO’s are unidirectional and which ones aren’t?
Double pole perhaps? Where by both the live and neutral are being monitored?
It’s a good point and hope a standard is agreed and manufactures apply
@@T_Perkins I believe his question is , is there a symbol on the device indicating if it is capable of correct operation with current flowing in either direction. I don’t believe there is a symbol as yet that a standard specifies . @Efixx ?
@@ladams5356 now you mention it, I haven't heard of a standard. However, if the schematic is drawn on the device itself, one should be able to determine its operation or reading a technical diagram for it.
(I do get the point being made a bit more however)
Unfortunately, mobile phone do mean there is a penny pinch in companies to say 'info is available online' rather than trying to describe anything in packaging or on the product that isn't required by law.
But yes, I see the point that is being mentioned - I'm not clued up on solar or battery installs as of yet so I assumed that perhaps double pole rcbos would monitor both live and neutral as AC is alternating back and forwards... By that definition double pole rcbos should be able to monitor both incoming and outgoing changes on both live and neutral.
That's my forth pence of an assumption! :)
@@T_Perkins while AC ‘will’ flow in and out of the mcb portion some manufacturers leakage architecture uses CT’s which are flow direction consensus and hence detection is inoperable in reverse. If you note AC CT’s are directional 👍
Just a question I thought the outer sheaving on the tails are meant to butt up to the main switch in the DB, am I wrong in thinking this?
You need to remove a small section of the protective sheath to indicate the polarity of the conductors
@@efixx Thankyou for letting me know I get the point
Not best practice I believe plastic indicator sleeves used by DNO better .@@efixx
Interesting my suspicion is there's something that's weird in the pop-up socket which is compounded by maybe the additional fix to the cord and motor characteristic?
Tidy network installation too.
10:51 - I love that word clock. They seem to vary in price wildly! 😱
Could you explain your point from 3:10 a little more please. Why would the power be travelling in the reverse direction?
Tripping AFDD/RCBO - Does your pop-up socket contain a type 2, 2+3, 3 SPD?
I've found quite a few instances of surge protected extension leads/multi-gang leads causing nuisance tripping with the SPD threshold voltage decreasing with age/being naturally low, mixed with reactive loads it can be quite an issue.
But will it trip a Hager AFDD?
Will it shite. I have 15 of them (trying them for myself) and never tripped with a dodgy heater arcing away and melting the plug top! Won’t be installing the Hagers for customers.
Will AFDDs trip if I am using CMH-TT, SON-T lamps. If so I am moving to electronic ballasts for them.
any chance of link to the Epson DB label printer please.... like the look of that !
Here it is 👉www.docs-store.co.uk/product-page/epson-labelworks-lw-z710
thanks Guys
@@efixx
5:14 - why are these all still rated at 100A? If the main fuse is 100A and you are adding 16A or more, these need to be rated higher - especially when there are multiple DBs running off them
Did he get written permission from Lewden to alter the designed usage of the CU prior to installation & cutting out the rear?
Yes
Great video . Experienced spark know how specifically knowing to create an air gap where possible around mcb’s with sustained high load 👍👍👍👌
Great to hear!
When it comes to RCBOs, they exist in both single pole and dual pole versions, with the dual pole also interrupting the neutral wire on a fault. In what type of earthing system or use case is the single pole deemed insufficient and a dual pole is required?
TT must be double pole. TNCS can be single unless supplying a defined special location such as an EV charger.
Sir How much leakage current is permissible in domestic circuit.and how to measure?
The magnetron in old microwaves causes havoc with these devices. This is compounded by the fact that many in HMOs where they are mandatory have rubbish old devices running in their rooms causing nuisance tripping. Total nightmare tbh
Some would say that’s the real driver for moving to AFDDs
Yes, filters out old junk. However leads to some heated conversations with landlords/Tennant's and often involves several call-outs before the issue is resolved. Kinda awkward to charge for after charging a fortune for board change with afdd's.
Was the italianin stallation based around a lot of plastic casings ?
Most properties in Italy are based on concrete construction so fire risk is less of an issue.
Type 2 SPD?
On overhead power lines???
Am I the only person splashing out for Type 1s?
I agree, overhead lines should be type 1. Perhaps tho the overhead lines /transformer are just random B roll and not actually the supply for this property
The overhead lines are to an 11kV transformer which converts to 230 /400 network which is underground and TNCS .
How come you're eating the cake And Poor Ross is in the cupboard like Harry Potter. I don't see any cake and tea of him FREE ROSS✊️😂 P.S nice work ross👍🏻
Ross loves a cupboard he’s graduated from under the floor in an earlier video!
The mains filter caps regularly fail in those old mixers!
Does it trip Hager AFDDs ?
If I was ignoring the regulations and installing AFDDs where I thought they'd make a difference, it would be electric showers not socket circuits.
Need a link for the clock on the wall!
It's called a Qlocktwo - sit down when you google it.
Get a digital storage oscilloscope on to the line driving the pop up socket. Get one that does FFTs, just in case that is useful.
We’ve got one at the unit - perhaps a weekend job.
@@efixxWould love to see a video of the waveforms you encounter which trigger the AFDD. That would be really useful for everyone
Lightening - not dissimilar to lower voltage arcing! - causes I believe wideband RF interference; I don't what waveform aspects these AFDD's trigger on, it could be a waveform shape in the time domain, or a particular spectrum in the frequency domain.
I would still replace the cable on the Kenwood!!
Was that a type 1 or 2 spd?
Type 2 as the supply is TNCS
8:37 AFDD
Probably a switching power supply on the same circuit. Or something WiFi related. It will be something that you dont expect.
Oh no not the dreaded EMI
We have the same issues in our home. Some appliances trip the AFDD, but you move it to a different circuit and they are fine. You switch other items off and you can use it on the original circuit. Seems to be electronic devices mixed with electrical devices that causes the tripping. Can use the TV or the hairdryer, but not both together.
warning, clickbait marketing - you will be pestered
Am I the only one who noticed the clock never changed from ten past two even though more than a minute passed?
It probably hasn’t got a battery in it
Watch the four dots on the outside!
Well MK ..........🤣🤣
I bet it won’t trip a Hager 🤣🤦🏻
Did I just watch an advert?
What was the advert for?
Interesting video you should install a a hagr afdd and see if the mixer would trip it or not got a kitchenaid mixer
still shit designs, boards and protective devices need a huge overhaul, still crappy fly leads everywhere.