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I Made an Ancient Greek "Bra"
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- At 2AM one morning, I went down a research rabbithole: what did the Ancient Greek people do for underwear, more specifically bust support? That led me to learn about the Ancient Greek "bra" (it's not really a bra, well it sort of is. I guess that could be the closest modern equivalent). In this video, I discuss my research and findings, as well as do a little experimental archaeology by recreating the "bra" (strophion) and wearing it myself to see if it actually works as bust support.
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Further reading:
Department of Greek and Roman Art. “Ancient Greek Dress.” In Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000-. www.metmuseum.o... (October 2003)
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moufflon.com.c...
www.cambridge....
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Image Sources:
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Corset, 1770-1790. Jacoba de Jonge Collection in MoMu - Fashion Museum Province of Antwerp, www.momu.be / Photo by Hugo Maertens, Bruges, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
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Metropolitan Museum of Art, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
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Clemensfranz, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons..., via Wikimedia Commons
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Metropolitan Museum of Art, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
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© Marie-Lan Nguyen / Wikimedia Commons
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Metropolitan Museum of Art, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
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Edit (for safety warning): A commenter rightfully pointed out the potential risks involved with this style of bust wrapping. Please listen to your own body and use caution with bust wrapping. None of this is medical advice and I’m not responsible for any injuries that may occur due to bust wrapping.
Another edit (because people are upset about the leaves on the statues): this is due to social media guidelines. Had I not covered them, you likely would not have seen this video. You can see the original versions linked in the description box. I wish things were different, but this is how it goes.
I feel like my videos keep getting weirder and weirder 😂
I hope you all enjoyed this fun experiment with trying out an Ancient Greek "bra". Thanks for watching and see you in two weeks for another video!
P.S. Julie was not harmed in the making of this video. If you haven't seen the whole video yet, you'll get what I mean in a minute.
I just found you. I love you. It's like OG CZcams core, a gorgeous geeky girl showing off her education and passion impressively. :)
Sometimes you just need to embrace the chaos.
Hi, I have been trying to research (traditional clothing from Italy, Spain and Greece) from the (1800s and specifically everyday pesent clothing) and of both men and women in 1800s, if possible can you make a video on (traditional mediterranean clothing) thank you 😊
Good research but there's got to have been some sort of twisting pattern whereby the strophium hold the girls up more securely than what you did there. And that would have been taught woman to woman, generation to generation, and like menstrual stuff, not written down anywhere, which is sad but that's what happens in patriarchal societies. But an interesting video that has me thinking how it might have been done.
Don't worry, Vasi. We have a shockingly high tolerance for weirdness! 😅
1:04 imagine being some sheep herder in ancient wales and suddenly a time traveller appears out of rift in reality itself to ask you "Are you or are you not wearing underwear right now?"
bwhahhahha!
😂😂😂
i saw sheep and wales in the same sentence and thought the joke was going a very different place
@red_roy it's a trauma response to just assume that at this point.
@@red_roy Well it does possibly involve the contents of the underwear
As someone with a bigger bust I don't think that type of "bra" would give me comfort for daily use, but also wearing nothing would not be good.
For me I would wrap once around my chest and once sorta of underneath, cupping the breasts, if it makes sense, and pinning it in a way would minimise the movement and weight of the bust.
Same!
I would also consider a kind of x shape for a large chest. One wrap for each breast, under one breast and over the other.
@@lolofunslayer4953 its a possibility but i feel the x shape or under and over could make the breast "migrate" to the sides so would limit the arms movements... 😅
@@DrinkYourNailPolishas a busty gal, i was trying to figure out how this would work! And the underbust wrapping is a must to help with support :D
I am a bigger chest and I like not wearing a bra. I just don’t like if people stare
By etymology, "strophion" is twisted as "στροφή" means twist or turn.
But could it also mean "wrap"?
As I remember from my Ancient Greek knowledge: no. But it could be a „pars pro toto“. Then it would be a word describing a part for the whole thing.
It means in anyway that it was twisted.
You have as a contemporary description the word Kirtle. Usually this word means a kind of woven belt or sash. They would have been woven on a different size loom and as the fabric was not designed for warmth but for strength and length I think the fabric would have been different from other garments, rather finer maybe than that for robes and other garments.
UMy suggestion comes with those things in mind, length, narrow width, and finer softer fabric. It does like your idea employ wrapping, but as a woman would likely dress herself would need to be easy for her to manage herself. So this is the method I suggest she might have used which allows for her to adjust things to her own needs and comfort levels.
First she would take the kirtle and find the mid point, then tie a light knot in it, then take each half of the kirtle and wrap it from front to back crossing over at the back and bringing the ends forward to the front. She could twist this as she wanted. The ends that came forward could be tugged to the right tension and taken over the central loose knot that would give some shape and be tucked in to the sides under the arms.
Surprisingly fabric can and does stay in place for long amounts of active time, ask anyone who has worn more than a holiday sarong, I.e. a proper one, which are worn differently for women and men, with fabric folded differently, or people who wear sarees worn in certain ways, not all use pins and petticoats but stay on nevertheless. Some of them traditionally had no blouses but still provided coverage of the upper body.
So I think a similar very simple method of wrapping would be used, using the tension of the fabric against the body to keep the ‘tails’ of the kirtle in place. An extension of this idea would be to tie a string or ribbon just under the bust first before doing the wrap. Another refinement would be to wet the fabric and crinkle it , complete with knot, then dry it to shape, perhaps using some kind of starch. This would give extra support. I don’t think those big pins would have been used, would you trust them that close to your skin. It is one thing to trust them to hold stuff onto your shoulder…..
@@EconaelGaming not directly but with a bit of imagination it could. The most appropriate Greek verb for the verb "wrap" is "τυλίσσω"
That makes sense.
Latinist here, always happy to see ancient cultures talked about :) If you want to do more research, there is a book called Roman Women's Dress by Jan Radicke (Latin Professor at Kiel university) who went through the literature to re-evaluate all the evidence. I have not read the book yet but it is on my list of things to look into
Oooh, thanks. I'll look that one up and see if I can find it (hope it's in English, my German isn't that good)
Found the book on Amazon- but it’s hardback and over $100 😱
@@amandagrayson389see if your library can borrow it! librarians love finding stuff like that
@@musicandbooklover-p2o it is, there is actually no German version yet
@@amandagrayson389 maybe your local library has it? And if not, you can ask them to maybe get it
An "8" pattern of winding around the shoulders and under the bust would both support and give more room for breathing
and would also meet the "twisted" part of the etymology as pointed out by another viewer.
I was thinking that too
Yeah, but that's not what we have in the mosaics, unfortunately...
Thank you for showing different historical undergarments. I’ve been wanting to learn about other kinds of undergarments that don’t require using modern stretch fabric, in my quest to create a completely natural fibers wardrobe ☺️ I will give this one a try! It seems very simple ☺️
Yes!! I agree. I hope more sewing-related channels talk about this, because undergarments are so difficult to conceptualize without stretchy fabric. Especially undergarments made for supportive comfort that can either be adjusted or made to accomodate a body's natural changes throughout a day. I hope V continues this as a series. ❤
This reminds me of a breast binder for lactating Moms. My culture uses one for 3 months even while breastfeeding to keep from having pain when you're breasts are full. Also ease, but we tie in the front. Typically your Mom shows you how.
Thanks for watching ☺️ I would recommend checking out short stays as well from the Regency period if you haven’t learned about them already.
In addition to Regency short stays, there is also the medieval Lengberg bra if you want another option that is similar to a modern one but without stretch fabrics. Luckily there are a decent amount of videos and blog posts about it. I will occasionally wear a modern posture corrector over a shift in lieu of a bra for some compression if I’m exercising, since I don’t own a sports bra. I’m a US 30K and I need to try the Ancient Greek bandeau for science!
I would recommend cotton instead of linen or if you have a lot of fabric available cutting the strips from the bias. I tried linen and since it doesn't stretch at all the wrap only stayed up when very very tightly wrapped and being therefore uncomfortable.
I'm sure women have been figuring out bust support forever! That said, beauty is so different in different cultures as are breasts. An athlete, however, would not want pendulous boobs getting in her way, so for sure she wrapped them! Ace bandages have been used for big breasted women for sports forever (before sports bras).
also, I am certain women figured out how to halter this, a much more supportive option and easily done.
@@tkeyserpetty Halters transfer weight to the neck which is not at all comfortable.
lol "pendulous"
Women have been figuring out bust support since early civilization for sure, even if it's not documented, but I wonder if it was necessary before agrarianism. Were hunter-gatherers ever successful enough that significant busts could develop? I kinda doubt it. Malnutrition would have been nearly universal, right?
@@admthrawnuru Breastfeeding is going to increase the size regardless...
We have this kind of Bra in Asia too.
in Thai we called ตะเบงมาน (Cross around the neck) and (นุ่ง)ผ้าแถบ (Cross around the Bust).
Kind of absurd that you had to sensor the statues in order to not upset CZcams 🙄
it shouldnt be censored in youtube rules bc it counts as art but i assume the moderation bots dont care
@@Bulbs_Productions Yeah, the moderation bot on youtube is basically just broken. We have clear and blatant eroticized nudity on the site that is still monetized, but even pictures of statues are often flagged.
I vaguely remember a Great Courses series on Greek theater where the professor pointed out that in Oedipus Rex, at the end Oedipus takes the pins from his mother’s chiton and blinds himself with them. She seemed to think it was important that they were the shoulder pins and that Oedipus’ last sight would have been his mother’s breasts-so clearly Jocasta wasn’t wearing a strophion!
I heard of a production where the director insisted the balls stabbed were not the eyeballs. Theater people! Heard that one while I was getting my theater degree.
Why shoulder important?
@@valvihk3649Because Oedipus's last sight would have been his mother's breasts.
@@valvihk3649because then it isn’t the strophion
@@valvihk3649 Two of the most common Ancient Greek garments were the chiton and peplos. They were both basically a large sheet folded around the body into a wide tube, pinned at the shoulders and tied at the waist with a rope belt. If the pins were removed, the fabric above the waist would drop, exposing the entire torso.
Worth noting: Due to differences in nutrition, breasts would have been smaller on average prior to modern agriculture, though of course larger sizes would still happen from time to time. With families being larger, the average woman would have spent the majority of her childbearing years either pregnant or nursing their baby.
Before my reduction surgery I did look into this type of bust support, as I'm interested in historical fashion and was desperate for any bra alternative that would actually support me and not be a sensory nightmare. I wasn't able to make it work but I'm glad to see someone in the historical costuming community post about it, since there's so little information available on ancient undergarments and I know from personal experience how difficult it can be not to have good support!
The issue of compression vs lift makes sense and was my experience as well, since historical fabrics would not have had the stretch of our modern sports bras and so would remain exactly as tight as you wrapped them... meaning sufficient support = less able to breathe when being active. That catch-22 is part of why I quickly gave up on the idea 😅
Did you find any historical garments that helped with comfort? I’ve been thinking of getting a corset to help distribute my busts weight on my hips
@@roseabellmoviestar I didn't, but that was largely because I didn't want to invest in a corset since I prefer more masculine clothing and so just getting a reduction instead was the better option for me. If I did enjoy having a feminine style/silhouette I would definitely have tried it, since everything I've learned about them suggests they would work and feel way better than a bra if fitted correctly. Support from underneath the bust that takes the weight off the shoulders and distributes it over a much larger area, AND also helps with posture would have been ideal, I just personally would feel uncomfortable having an hourglass figure. But if that style works for you and you're interested I would suggest giving it a try!
@@pilarofstone thank you! I think it would work for me. I’m in the USA and my insurance won’t cover a reduction and a corset is much cheaper
if the fabric is cut on the bias it helps it have some stretch
I would very much recommend trying to connect to a local reenactment/costumer group, and get help from someone who has made successful corsets to make a custom fit one. A cheap "off the rack" corset may not fit you well enough to be comfortable, and could needlessly put you off the whole concept. I've figured out how to modify cheap corsets to work for me, but I don't have much of a figure, so it's not too hard.
I know a couple of Roman re-enactors who tried this garment and they basically discovered that you put the centre in the middle of your back and wrap that way then you fasten (knot, push under or a combination of both) the ends once it is tight. BUT it wasn't as wide as this, literally only wide enough to cover the bust area like a strapless bikini top would and it gave a surprising amount of support. One who was larger somehow managed to twist it so she had 'straps' over her shoulders as well. She gave diagrams which I downloaded at the time but that was several tablets ago - with the resultant lost documents/images - but she was in the SCA so I'm guessing the information is probably still online if you know where to hunt.
That gave me a giggle. As I was reading it in the context of Ancient Rome the reference to "that was several tablets ago" slipped into my brain as roman wax writing tablets and it took me a few seconds to get back to iPad/Android tablet in my head before the sentence made proper sense..
Am in my 70s and still remember having to IRON my grandmother's cotton double g cup down to the waist brassieres.
That’s crazy! Why iron them!? My mom is in her 70’s too. 1950’s parents had a lot of strange ideas about what was an acceptable way of presenting one’s self, and the numerous ways that were not acceptable.
That said, as a busty woman, I’m so glad we have lots of comfortable options available today. I think wrapping and twisting fabric to make a halter top would be comfortable on heavier chested women more than a strapless version.
I love your experimental archeology videos. Maybe I need to try this for a larger-busted comparison? _eyes linen stash_
If you feel comfortable sharing, please let me know how it is!
That would be great! I am curious also
A fellow lizard!
@@VBirchwood Copy/pasting my comment from above, in case it's of interest to you.
I have a large bust (like... 38L or so, last I checked), and I've worn strophia daily for a couple of years; I find it vastly more comfortable than modern undergarments.
Specifically, my standard pattern is about 12"-18" width (dependent on preference, but enough to go from the underbust, up and around, to wherever you want the top), enough length to wrap around the body 3-4 times, and a cheap skirt/kilt pin - the Dritz two-pack for $5 is my go-to. (The pin is optional, but I recommend it for larger-busted folks, because your bust changes shape substantially when you lay down or bend over - that's when an unpinned strophium tends to start wiggling loose for me.)
Start under and around one bust, spin in a circle until you reach the end of the length, tucking each wrap under the bust. If you choose, you can leave the last wrap not under the bust, letting it hang like a tube top - I find that this makes the silhouette less obvious under modern clothes like t-shirts, and it basically looks like a tanktop/undershirt. Pin the end in place, through all layers of the strophium - if you pin from the inside, the pin will be nearly invisible.
The friction of the linen holds everything in place - no bouncing, no jiggle, very similar coverage to a binder in my experience, but vastly more comfortable because my ribs aren't fighting the elastic to breathe.
It does not need to be tight - there should be no difficulty breathing and no discomfort or pain. Just firm enough that it's not literally falling off your chest. I can stick my whole hand easily under the one I'm wearing right now. I've worn it all day, including a nap, and it hasn't needed to be readjusted. Smaller-busted folks may have a bit more trouble keeping things in place.
In my experience, strophia have a big advantage over corsets if you spend a lot of time hunched over - whether because you sit on the floor or on cushions a lot, because you do a lot of work which involves being bent over, or because you nap or lay down frequently.
I've also found that linen strophia are a lot easier on my skin than synthetic fabrics - I was prone to pretty unpleasant rashes (intertrigo) when I wore modern undergarments, like many folks with very large busts, and those have completely disappeared since I started using strophia. I've also found that I have less back pain when doing housework which requires me to bend over, like washing dishes.
I'm sure folks have varied experiences, but I would highly recommend giving it a go, especially since the materials are inexpensive and pretty readily available.
@@serrate-td7tu Thank you!
Don't know why the algorithm brought me here but this was super interesting. Something that comes to mind is that since all of these were hand made back then all of them are going to be adapted to the person using them. I'd assume that everyone would have had a different way to tie everything up and that would also necessitate different shapes, lengths, widths of fabric.
Now I'm curious what the guys did to keep everything in place.
When you were wrapping the garment on July tightly, I had an inkling that a person wouldn't be able to breath well. I've lightly researched chest binding for breast reduction and one of the first things warned agaisnt was using bandages to wrap the breast down. Injuries ans breathing problems were the consequences mentioned. This is basically doing that, so I assume it wasn't meant to be worn for long periods of time.
One of the big problems with using bandages, though, is that they contain elastic, so they can tighten up and restrict your breathing without you realizing it. A woven fabric from antiquity wouldn't have that problem.
Bandage clips, those little, curved sheet metal things with ‘claws’ on both ends to grab the fabric seem the thing to use in this function. I’m supposing they existed in the way back as they are dead simple and our ancestors were not dim.
Your pronunciation was spot on :) lots of love form Greece, stay healthy and safe and dont forget to hydrate :)
Really shows why elastic textiles were such a game changer for women's clothing.
I love experimental archaeology, and I love your videos! Especially these ones more focused on ancient cultures, it's really so fascinating 😊
Thank you so much! I’m glad you enjoy them ☺️
Presumably these were the goals:
1. Reduce boob sweat/chafing in the hot greek sun
2. Give some support while doing intense physical activities
3. Expand and contract with your breathing, either through choice of material or something to do with the method of wrapping
4. Be relatively easy to put on and take off
5. Presumably shaping and lifting weren't goals because its so full coverage but it could have been some vague consideration
I enjoyed your video, but your use of a Roman mosaic to illustrate a strophion raised (for me , at least) a question. The mosaic, known as The Coronation Of The Winner, shows two women being give crowns, or wreaths, at the end of some athletic competition. The woman presenting the awards is obviously not wearing any sort of bra at all. Might it be that the strophion type garments depicted were something that was only worn by women during athletic events to hold everything in place, and to prevent uncomfortable bouncing around of the breasts? Think of it as an ancient Roman sport bra. If that was the case I would imagine that it would be worn much tighter than anything worn as normal everyday wear. As the woman making the award is not wearing any bust support at all makes me wonder whether any sort of upper body underwear was worn by women in ancient Rome, or by extension, ancient Greece.
Could be! That’s why I express that I’m not sure if they were worn by everyday people, just the wealthy, or only in certain occasions. There are sooooo many gaps in this mystery.
Put middle of fabric in the front, toss ends behind back and bring ends in front. Now bend at waist, adjust fabric over the breasts. Pull the ends, so the fabric at the back and for the breasts is snug.
Option 1. While bent at waist, & while fabric is snug, twist both ends of fabric and tuck into the opposite sides.
Option 2. Stand straight now. Twist the lengths together in the front as if a knot at front between breasts. Adjust so that the fabric supports the side and under-breast. With it twisted in the front, tuck each end of the fabric under the binding.
Why? This way it can be put on by a single person, and adjusted at will by that person. No pins needed. Twists, tucks, and folds can all increase holding tension. Or a knot at front instead.
Do you have a video of this wrapping process?
@@jessicahavens-ziebarth9409 No. This is just what I've done myself at times. I have no historical reference for it.
My opinion is that repeated need for something will eventually produce the simplest and effective process or design.
Which is why I commented, as my process is simpler, and more effective as it can be retightened at any time.
But yes, no video, no references.
The reason why I mentioned repeated use, is that I believe that if I figure out a slightly better way, then people in the past could have done the same. Especially if knots, twists, ropes, and braids were a part of their active knowledge.
I feel ancient people are _exactly_ as smart as we are today.
It's good to see you looking so well and happy! Also I'm glad to know I'm not the only person who named her dress form. Mine is named Agnes.
Fascinating and cleverly done.
A couple notes: Fibulae were not as small (or cheap) as moder safety pins, the strophion was probably held in place by knots or push under/wrap on itself, like a sash. The "bikini" mosaic depict a woman winning a sporting competition, so not an everyday occurrence.
I used to have a baby carrier wrap that I thought would work well as a type of bra. It was a single length of fabric, you'd start with it layed across the chest, cross it at the back and bring round to the front, cross at the front and put each side over the shoulders, cross again at the back and tuck under the previous cross, then bring back around to the front and tie in the middle. It was super comfy and I carried each of my three children in it from newborn up to about a year old. A smaller version made from less fabric would support the chest quite nicely.
So fun V!! Loved this - I sewed my first “history bounding” short sleeved shift last month in a blue cotton gauze and it’s been an EVERY day staple thank you for inspiring me ❤ you’re amazing!
That’s amazing, I’m sure it’s beautiful! 🥰
I love how your hair is styled in a simple and elegant way. So pretty!
When Vasi says "Internet appropriate" at about 5:08, she really means "CZcams appropriate". 😅
Yeah, I also immediately thought: "the internet says EVERYTHING is appropriate." :)
Yeah, social media appropriate 😂
@@donjones4719 that hasn't been the case for a long time. 90% of internet = social media, where american paranoia about female boobage and conservative hangups about lgbtq expression reign supreme
@@MCArt25 The fact you only ever browse CZcams and Facebook doesn't mean that's the entirety of the internet, mate.
@@VBirchwood You could’ve made that disclaimer 5 minutes sooner… 🙄 Only jokes of courses!! 😂😂
So glad you popped up in my feed! Love your content and style!
This is a well thought out and presented video. While I do not have much historical knowledge of this period, I have done costume design for a couple of decades and I have a method for this that does not require and pins.
Starting under the arm, wrap the bust 3 times around the body. Next bring the tail of the material up between the breasts and wrap around the the material 3 times before tightening by pulling through the vertical wrap. By pulling the material tight in the front, it basically creates 2 pockets for support and anti bounce.
I have used this method in both fantasy and wasteland videos.
I'm reminded of the cording often seen used on the old wear from that era re-imagined for movies and such and it occurs to me that the cloth was likely wrapped on with two loops of cord and folded like we would do with blankets on poles to make stretchers in the field. A rough twisted stranded cord would definitely work into and hold the cloth in place.
I asked Archimedes, and he confirmed that everything you said in this video is correct, good job
Lol.
I want to add my thoughts regarding the safety of this as someone who regularly wears a chest binder for compression (because gender dysphoria):
(Modern) binders are medical products made from mainly elastic textile (spandex) and with non-elastic textile only at the chest area (upper front). This is to make sure that 1. the chest gets compressend, and 2. it´s safe to wear. Still, if you wear your binder for too long, during sleep, while doing sports or when it´s wet it can get dangerous. I don´t know how often binder wearing goes wrong, but it can lead to broken ribs or even death (though I can´t imagine people regularly dying from wearing binders as parents would probably freak out and after all our bodies can get away with a whole lot of stuff, even if they get heavily damaged through it).
TL;DR: Wrapping your chest in non-elastic textile can end nasty, so please listen to your body! And don´t sleep in it, because that might be deadly!
More thoughts: There should be a way to wrap these without it feeling hard to breath. Maybe going above the shoulders in order to not have to go so tight?
It made me think of a binder as well, and the old ace bandage binding which we all know is unsafe. I think it is the elasticity of the ace bandage that causes it to be dangerous because it can incrementally increase tightness over time. I think a non elastic fabric might be less likely to cause harm because you can only stretch a natural fiber so tight without any added elasticity.
Thank you for pointing this aspect out! I’ve added a statement about the potential risks in my pinned comment. I appreciate you looking out for everyone’s wellbeing!
i'm very glad you said this, i am also a regular binder wearer for dysphoria reasons and had similar concerns about the non-elastic chest wrap when V mentioned having trouble breathing
As a fantasy writer and DM I love this kind of living experimental archaeology content, thank you.
Your hair is so pretty in this video and this chiton looks amazing! Can't wait for the next video
This is the first video of yours I have watched. As a male I never gave much thought to bust support before the age of elastic, but I can certainly see the need for it. Experimentation is a good way to learn about a topic and about how things were done in the past, so keep up the good work,
OMG This makes me so proud! You make me feel so proud! As someone who is a Crimean Tatar, seeing a fellow Tatar make such an amazing content such as this fills me bursting with joy. I am subbed, notifs opened. Much love
What I find interesting is the idea that breasts weren’t seems as sexual in most cultures until modern times. The Greeks probably didn’t see exposed breasts as a controversial or titillating which is why we see exposed breasts in their art. I find it disturbing that art is now being covered up because a small group sees the human body as obscene.
I agree! I find it very upsetting as well, as breasts aren’t necessarily sexual but have been sexualised. I had to cover the statues with leaves in the video to meet social media guidelines 🥲
So much of classical art being representational, depicting nudes, was more about appreciation of human form, figure and musculature (male and female) rather than a clear depiction of "modesty" or not. Certain cultures and subcultures had classist rules about modesty...
and the art we see with fig leaves on them were added centuries later!
Seems like lots of humanity has gone backward!!! Hope that info was helpful...
In many cultures breasts are seen mainly as something to nourish babies, not to titillate men.
none of these responses are biologically correct at all. They are scientifically erogenous zones, that is an indisputable scientifically measurable fact. Ask any lesbian of ancient or current times as well for further clarification. They have also been depicted in exaggerated, comical, highlighted manners from cave drawings to statues from a few thousand years ago. They might have been more socially acceptable being visible, but so were all the sexual organs. Its only til modern feminism came around that the push to not have them sexual came about. This man blaming/hating nonsense needs to stop
IMHO its pretty hard wired.
Thanks. I’m not entirely surprised that, compared to a corset, it felt harder to breathe. With a corset, the pressure is evenly distributed around the entire length of the torso. Unless you are tight lacing, the structure should provide support and still allow you to breath and move with east. With this, you need it to be relatively tight to both provide support and to keep it in place. It is compressing a relatively narrow area and so yes, the ribcage will be inhibited from moving.
I hate wearing bras but I’m large breasted and going without is not very comfortable, either. I keep hoping there is something better out there. Thanks for being willing to explore this.
Interesting. In my opinion the greek, roman and later the neoclassical empire period brought out the most elegant fashion for women we have ever had: reduced but also rich at the same time and looking comfortable. That is style! Maybe it comes back one day. 😊
I did this once with a cloth so that I could go jogging because I did’t have any female sports clothes at the moment. It worked really well and I’m a european C cup. (Large size but not huge)
That was really cool! Obviously don't have much experience in this realm myself, but every time I see the Great British Sewing Bee do like a lingerie or swimwear week, I always think I wouldn't have a clue where to start on these sorts of things, so looking at the possible early beginnings of this stuff is really interesting, thanks for sharing your rabbit-hole-dive!
Interesting to see you trying this. I tried it at one point as well and did not have good success. A few of my observations.
1. The length of fabric needs to be QUITE a bit longer and narrower (maybe 6ish inches?) to allow for more wraps, and a little less bunching (though not entirely removing the 'bunchiness' as you need coverage too!). Going by the artwork, there's not a TON of bulk there caused by the fabric. There are wraps, yes, but it's still not bulky.
2. There is a problem with the lack of stretchiness to the fabric. When wound tight, it creates a solid barrier against the natural movement of the chest/ribs, as opposed to modern fabrics that sort of give, then return to place as the body exhales. Perhaps I did this wrong and did not cut on the stretchier side of the fabric. (Also I was using bedsheet cotton that was fairly old. . .so. . .it might not have had enough give anyway). And again, wrapping from below creates a second barrier to keep the ribs from properly expanding with breath.
3. As with the problem on 2 - this creates a 'sizing' issue as things sort of loosen up during wear, but don't return to shape, causing slippage later on. (Possibly why straps were developed later?).
All in all, with my own experimentation it seemed to work initially, but is weirdly tight along the edges, then starts slipping/loosening up as worn with nothing to really help it tighten up and stay with the body. It offered good support briefly, but as it's worn, it just shifts too much. Of course, I may not have had enough fabric, and I am fairly large chested (and have always been on the chubbier side, which may also have effected things), so that also might have effected things. There's no real clues if heavier women wore these or if it was just smaller/lighter women who needed bare minimum. It's also a pity that we can't see the back. Maybe they DID just have lacings that could be tightened as needed and we're all over-simplifying it with straight wrapping/knotting. lol
Conclusion, I'd like to see more experimentation done on this - and see if it's a viable option for modern use, if we can figure it out.
Perhaps the fabric should be cut on the bias for stretchiness.
Charming personality and informative video, really noice. As someone who enjoys drawing ancient people & their time appropriate attire, this stuff is always interesting. Keep it up!
Your channel is very underrated! Your videos are informative and entertaining, and your personality really shines 🤗. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much! :)
Is nobody going to talk about how the ancient Roman athlete women in the mosaic are absolutely _shredded_ ? Yikes.
Also, uh … fascinating video. It's really interesting to see how pre-industrial cultures without access to modern sewing equipment or elastic materials solved some of these problems.
Nobody is talking too much about the bikini girls because we only have this one depiction and it's from a late Roman floor mosaic in rural Sicily and we don't know what to make of it
Hi Julie, thank you for your sacrifice of your modesty. :P
On a more correct note, I do like your videos going further back than the medieval age to Victorian. I love history, so seeing things that are not normally covered, i.e. the dress of different cultures, everyday life and food. Things that are not normally covered in history of of how the "average" person lived.
As for the subject matter, I do believe the issue of harder to breath could be as it is wrapped more around the chest and upper lungs compared to either stays or a corset. And less lift comparison as well, so "vertical support" would be less than stays or the corset.
Maybe as more of an experiment try wearing it for several days to see how secure or comfortable it would be over time, just an idea. A long term experiment.
Lol, this might be a bit out of left field but I struggle to sleep without a blindfold. I don't like commercial sleeping blindfolds because they are bulky and rarely do a good job of staying secure to blockout light.
So instead I take a sash(more of a belt but too soft to be a normal belt) from an old robe and just wrap it around my head, which ends up being far more secure than a commercial blind fold. I don't use any safety pins and instead just fold the sash underneath itself near the end but use a sizeable portion of it for this task. Out of a 3 foot sash I'd say I use the last 6 inches for securing it. I have used a few sashes but one made out of modern fleece worked the best. It had good friction against itself and it stretches a little but so that I can pull it tight and it kind of hold onto my head with tension that way.
I'm mentioning this just because I wonder if the pins might be a bit... painful as part of your undergarments. Also the roman examples didn't seem to have pins but I couldn't really tell. So maybe there is a friction method that could work without needing pins and maybe the type of fabric used could be a significant factor in how well such a securing method might work. I presume you would not want to use modern fleece but maybe cotton would work, especially if the cotton has shrunken in the wash recently to give it more tension in it's elasticity.
You look like a painting in a museum. You should totally get your portrait done!
You might be a little embarrassed, but the information is useful and educational. And now I know what fibulae are! Also, I finally have decoded what Oedipus tore off of Jocasta's clothing to put out his own eyes with. NOW, I get it. So thank you.
some of those mosaics are very clearly Roman. As a classicist I can tell you in Latin it's called a strophium (strophia pl) and wasn't the only support method in Rome. Others included a fabric belt tied under the bust, also used to give shape to women's tunics and stolae. This could also be tied with straps over the shoulders, thus making a bra. I personally think that Roman support methods are much more comfortable than modern ones.
dactylichexaphoebster-vx5nv,
I am guessing at this however, I think it's because modern bras are designed more with appearance in mind than comfort. (Think back to the "bullet" bras of the 50s). But that's just my opinion.
Would it be more comfortable and supportive if cut on the bias? It would obviously have some give done on the bias, and could contour better to the body and might make it easier to breathe. Not the best use of fabric, especially historically....maybe they had another way of doing it, though.
As a woman with a larger front, I've found wrapping a cloth around my neck and bosum works very supportive. So too does using a "belt" directly under the two towers and the shirt/belt combo most keeps things contained
You should recreate a whole ancient Greek bathing suit! I'm curious too, what men would wear as well for an afternoon swim
Would they have worn anything at all?
Fascinating topic, thanks!
Also thanks for adding a safety warning to the pinned comment!
While at it, will there be a video on your camicia? Every time I see you wear it I am yet again taken aback at how beautiful it is and I am so curious about how it is constructed.
Ah I love a late night bunny hole, so many lost hours of sleep, dam you CZcams rabbit holes .
Thank you for your airing of classical laundry. And thank you Julie, as well.
I've heard that women don't need to wear bras if they don't start wearing them in the beginning because some kind of fibers don't weaken.
Also, I was wondering if maybe some kind of infinity pattern with the cloth over the shoulders would be better suited to support things and then afterward a wrap around it to keep everything together.
First time watching your channel. This is great content. I've studied history my whole life (and was a history major in college) and the most frustrating thing to me about it is how hard it is to know or understand how people in past eras actually just lived their daily lives.
My mother (b. 1912) showed me how to make a bra or crop top out of a square scarf, folded diagonally. That way you take advantage of the natural stretch in the fabric.
I'm wondering if these could have been made from cross cut fabric?
When wraping the mannequin it make me think of a chest bind which i could see being useful in an active setting such as sports. So may not have been a typical day undergarment.
For Greek or Roman hystorical information I would suggest talking to youtuber Metatron. He is nice and loves their history. A collaboration video would also be very interesting to watch.
Wonderful! Glad to hear of someone who likes to dress HISTORICALLY,
As someone who has never EVER found a bra that works (planning on making jumps & commissioning a corset to try those avenues) and needs considerable support, I find myself wondering about these kinds of things a lot. Thanks for bringing us with you on this adventure, Vasi!
You and Julie make a Great Team.
Thank you so much for your research on undergarments for women...personally I've thought about it quite a lot over my decades on not wearing conventional support but being a larger woman. Some thoughts that come to mind from trial and error: I'm thinking there would be a way without a lot of clips as they can come apart- I know this to be the case with safety pins when there is tension. And possibly a lighter longer fabric- more gauze-like that can be wrapped in layers and/or twisted above and below. I've tried scarves and even ripped a length of fabric (which is a practical solution in my mind). I am not particularly looking for historical but looking back in history to get ideas on how I can do things-easily, simply and sustainably. Many women must have worn support of some kind that could be wrapped by themselves even if only for practical reasons. I know...I think about way too many things
that usually people don't talk about. And thank you so much for the modesty :) Love your videos as always :)
After watching your video on kirtles I've been trying to figure out how I can wear one that could be worn over a shift (or tshirt) or underneath. Being laced in the front and shorter maybe to above waist length so as to be comfortable when bending, like a tight vest. Hope you are able to find something that maybe peasant women wore. My ancestors are all gone so I can't ask. :)
What you're describing with the kirtle sounds like the jumps made in rural areas, worn instead of boned stays and corsets. Maybe you could take inspiration from something like that? Elin Abrahamsson made video on a 'working woman's corset' and Angela Clayton has a video on jumps as well.
Don't forget regency short stays; similar to a corset but shorter.
it's crazy how it used to be widely thought that medieval european women didn't wear bras or underwear at all until they found physical remains of a set of bras which clued researchers into finding textual and artistic depictions to support it.
that's what you get when most of your history is written by men about men
I just read this on a Website about ancient Roman clothing, regarding what women wore: "Fascia - a simple bra in the form of a band that was tied tightly around the breasts on the body.
Mamillare - a tight band over the breasts that was tied over clothing.
Tunica - shirt
Stola - robe
Stophium - chord or belt
Palla - cloak
Suffibulum - veil
Although we mostly do 19th century re-enactments, we do enjoy the Renaissance period with all its sword play and differing cultures and costumes.
I have studied fashion design in my early career and history of costumes was one of the subjects. I also worked as seamstress for some years… this is to say I have hand on experience.
Some users in the comments clarified that στροφή means twist or turn: given that, I suggest that an undergarment wrapping would have probably cut and worn along its bias and not along grainline.
This way it would have been elastic, thus modeling much better on curves while feeling softer.
Also looking as how some ancient-rooted cultures still wrap babies, makes me think bias could have been the most natural choice over grainline.
Fashion may have changed, but the human body and the basic of textiles have not.
I love these specific dives into history.
Not about battles, or burial rites, or ancient religions, but the mundane. The everyday. The "unmentionables"
I love your hair cover. It’s a beautiful and flattering shape on you. Do you have a video showing how you wrapped it?
Very interesting, as always. I can't imagine wearing the ancient safety pin under one's arm. It will be good to hear your evaluation after wearing it all day.
Just a thought - cutting non-stretch fabrics cross-grained would give it more "stretch" making it slightly more comfortable, possibly giving more support and less slippage. Well done video though! Glad it was recommended. Also, my body forms name is Betty.
Interesting topic, would maybe say looking at the kimono for wrapping would give some ideas? As I think it was similar wrapped, but this is outside of my knowledge area.
A sarashi is a traditional strip of fabric, used for breast binding/bust support, stomach wraps, male underpants etc. Seems very similar to the strophion so I was thinking the same thing; Looking at Japanese breast binding techniques might be helpful here.
When wrapping a sarashi you twist it each time you bring it behind you from what I've read. So I imagine a similar technique might have been used. Sarashi are much longer though.
Looks correct. I suppose there were many ways to wrap fabric, like a Japanese Fundoshi, same concept.
alternate method of wear: Attach the free end to a support (or held by a friend), go to the other end, wrap half way around, elbows up, then roll around towards the fixed end, then secure with pins. Should be much easier to control placement and tension.
Very nifty seeing someone experiment with historical clothing. Enjoyed it very much!
damn girl that sources section looks GOOD
My guess for a better fit would be to do the first layer full width (like you did on Julie) and then fold the rest in half and wrap it underbust. That would create a pocket that's supported from below instead of a compression support. To work without pins, you'd start with it centred in the front so the two ends meet up in the front again to be knotted below the "extruding area". Like an apron's strand.
My intuition would be that the initial wrap is somewhat loose over the front of the bust, but the following wraps are tighter and alternatively above and below the bust, fastening the fabric and providing structure while not impeding breathing as much.
Me too. I read and looked for everything I could. I can see how women probably tailored a breast wrap out of sheer necessity. Tapered ends worked well for me. I feel a loin cloth would have been standard. When you wear one in situ, at a full hard camp, reenactment its a game changer.
I found this video. Not just educational but charming and funny as well. I would absolutely look forward to watching more historical content from you.
I love some experimental archeology! I think wrapping it in a twisted fashion might help for bigger busts, but i think bigger busts in general might want some shoulder support haha at some point i want to make the Lengberg Castle bra, it looks very modern in a way 😂
I wonder if there is an option that it had some sort of hook or eye - or what is it called - at one end (which may no survive on the statue because of the "delicacy") or some type of situation that is currently used in ring sling baby carriers (this is I think a very ancient type of connecting fabric). Also I need to add that women were quite often breastfeeding for the majority of their adulthood, so easy access might have been probably a priority...
There's also the Minoan option which is very much the opposite approach
I have zero interest in historical fashion. But dang, you make it fascinating! Your passion is inspiring.
If you want to expand on this idea, you could probably get a lot of useful ideas from baby-wearing. It's very similar. I used a long strip of muslin when I first started and it looked almost identical to your finished garment, but it was holding a baby.
Babywearing wraps are also used for belly-binding and similar applications, so historically it seems like the most likely origin point for bust support.
As a writer who probably puts too much time and thought into minuscule details of my settings like these, this is a gift from the gods
Well- I know I'm never going back to modern bras lol. Think I might try it myself sometime.
Though not shown in the artwork, if you used a part of the wrap over one or both shoulders you could wrap it looser and still have it stay put. This would eliminate the breathing problem.
Taking a deep breath before each wrap also works, but makes the wrap loose enough to possibly fall.
Assuming a corset isnt trying to change your waist or provide much compression, they are quite comfortable.
Rather a strophion, by what we can guess at, it looks and probably closer to a binder, but without the benefit of elastic. Breathing would be restricted as you would have to do belly breaths than being able to expand the ribcage as much as you normally would.
Maybe they had a technology we are missing (an approximation of elastic) or the strophion was longer, so you could tuck and do more to make it self supporting than binding about the bust.
Thanks for exploring this!
The problem with using the Bikini girls is that the Roman empire in the 4th century is culturally very different from the republic 400 years earlier. The mosaic is 800-1200 years removed from the cultural heights of ancient greece so it's far from contemporary.
Very cool video though and there's no reason I can see that the Greeks would not have worn this or something similar.
It might be insightful to look into cultures that influenced Greece from the east such as Egyptian or Assyrian.
Thanks for this video. Inquiring minds really do want to know. Your hair is beautiful, by the way.
I've never watched any of your videos before but I too have been curious about what was worn under ancient garb so I watched it. I just want to say that, not only did I really enjoy it, but that you are just adorable. I love your personality and beautiful smile. You seem like such a wholesome person. Keep up the good work. 😊
Interesting. I had them idea that women bound their breasts. I read that Japanese women wrapped theirs to hold them in so as not too get in the way. I think you're on to something. 😊
Not sure what time period you are refering to but taditionally Japanese women used the obi (aka the Kimono belt) in a similar way corsets were used in Europe.
That is why the obi for women is usually twice as wide as the mens version. It is not just to keep the kimono closed it also has to cover the lower part of the breasts for support the same way some styles of corset do.
Then again, since the obi is wrapped around I guess it is not wrong to say they wrapped their breasts.
@@IISheireenII huh, this is interesting! This function of the obi makes a lot of sense but is something I hadn't considered.
@@perryh.-r.4419 I reccoment Billy Matsunagas youtube channel for interesting kimono knowledge
@@IISheireenII Actually not quite like a corset.
If the woman wasn't exactly... gifted, she could wear obi over her breasts, but generally obi was tied right below the breasts instead, i.e. obi would function not unlike a bra band does on modern bras with kimono substituting for bra cups and straps.
Also women obi became wider and stiffer *_with time,_* eventually reaching a point where it'd be purely decorative and incapable of doing its function, thus another obi (either separate or placed through the now-decorative obi) would fasten the kimono, which could give the impression it's tied over the chest, when it actually wasn't.
It also depends on the angle of your ribcage. I've tried several kinds of strapless bras and no matter how tight they are they just fall right down to my waist
I have no idea why this video was in my recommended but props to you for having the modesty to not use a clickbait thumbnail for a topic that most definietly would excuse one.
I have been able to answer the question of what women used to wear underneath since a Viking film that I saw a few days ago. The young lady was clearly wearing turquoise sports underwear under her light linen dress.
😂😂😂