Dungeon World ACTUALLY SUCKS
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- I freaking love Dungeon World. It's my favorite RPG right now and has been for quite some time. But a lot of people HATE Dungeon World. They think Dungeon World actually sucks.
Sorry, I know that sentence was weird but SEO is a thing.
Anyway, today I'm going over all the reasons why the PbtA faithful like to crap on my favorite game.
LINK TO THE DISCORD:
/ discord
TABLE OF CONTENTS
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0:00 drake's 2016 album
0:30 one of my biggest fears
1:20 for one
2:32 the pinnacle pbta game
3:31 for two
4:30 summit by skrillex
4:57 the best 7 seconds i've ever made
5:28 for three (i'm like a real vlogger)
7:11 my mcdonald's order (plus important conclusions) - Hry
Sponsored by McDonalds
Sponsored by Mountain Lions
"The 5e faithful are too busy arguing amongst themselves on how to best hack their dragon game to make it into Pathfinder 2e to even know that Dungeon World exists" I lost it. :)
I was pretty proud of that one😂
I love this statement so much lmao
Perfect summation of why DnD players don't try other RPGs. They simply believe the pathfinder to DnD is the spectrum of RPG mechanics in all systems.
@@tiggerdyret In my experience, they don't even know Pathfinder exists. DnD is the only TTRPG ever in existence ever and any other system is just some niche spin off of DnD so why bother?
But then they will just remove from pathfinder 2e till it's 5e
This is an outstanding video. Entertaining and informative. Love the hiking. You do a great job of explaining the mechanics in a simple way. Well done!
Thanks Professor! I put a lot of TLC into my videos and your comment means a lot!
What DW and similar games are missing is a stronger representation/support for the narrative mechanics.
basically players need something in the style of "cards against humanity" cards with the moves on them. This way one can easily reference the trigger the phrases of characters moves.
Enemies should have public and hidden moves. So that players can try to circumvent using phrases that trigger monster moves but also by that get trapped into triggering a hidden move.
Too often tables completely ignore the narrative aspect of this game and play it like other RPGs.
Personally, I love DW because it maintains a balance between narrative focus and collaborative gaming. And to me, collaborative story telling is different than collaborative gaming. Where D&D forgets the game exists within a narrative, other PbtA systems forget they exist as a game. I like the vestigial crunch of DW. Of course, that is just my preference!
That's a great way of putting it! I find gamey elements allow you a place to fall back to when things get awkward. It's the proverbial skeleton holding a session together.
Dungeon World being similar to DnD could actually be a good thing, as it feels a little more comfortable to players coming from systems like DnD, giving them a familiar game that also introduces them to the PBTA system and allows them to explore those other games with their much more drastic changes
100%
I tried introducing a friend who had only played 5e to Masks -- they were super confused and had a TERRIBLE time. Every single person I've introduced to Dungeon World has loved it.
"Gateway drug"
My question now would be, after playing DW are other PBtA games easier and more fun?
It would be funny if the creators saw this and made a second edition
I think Sage tweeted the POSSIBILITY of a 2.0 like two years ago. But it’s pretty unlikely given the other writer’s been blacklisted from ever working in games ever again (and rightfully so)
@@tabletopbro Do I even want to know what he did?
@@thejunecooperative I suppose there are WORSE things in the world as he didn’t do physical harm. But it’s very much not cool.
If you’re fine reading about fictionalized sexual assault I’d recommend looking up “Adam Koebel controversy” as it’s a bit of a read
@@tabletopbro There are a number of DW hacks that fill the gap tho. There's Stone Top, Perilous Wilds/Freebooters in the Frontier, Unilimited Dungeons, Homebrew World, etc.
@@nimlouth Problem is there are too many I cant figur out where to start after my DW campain. Felt like DW was a little to DnD. Fellowship maybe? :S
The three items you mentioned: Hit Points, Damage Dice and Ability Scores are all things that people who prefer older versions of D&D complain about with D&D 5e, for similar but not identical reasons to the PBtA fans:
- Hit Points used to be mostly about determining whether you die or not. There was limited consequences to the non-death result, but it was so easy to die that the very number had meaning. For example, you had 10 HP and many enemies did 1-10 damage, so you could risk a hit but it could also kill you, and two hits probably would. In 5E, the number has no meaning, since often you have so many HP that it's impossible for an attack to knock you unconscious, so what IS the consequence of being hit?
- Damage Dice is the same argument as for HP. In old D&D the damage was never trivial, so rolling a dice for damage WAS the consequence: You are barely scratched, you are nearly dead, you ARE dead. Healing was far less common in old D&D, so if you "lost 4 HP" you would likely go into the next battle limping and wheezing. Sure, there was no numerical consequence to your character, other than the next time someone hit you, you were probably dead.
- Ability Scores and the bonuses. In old D&D there were bonuses only for very extreme values, like 17 or 18. Your ability scores rarely changed either. They were mainly there to define your character - were you strong, smart, etc. - but mechanically there was little difference between many values, at least on paper. However, what DMs would do is roll a 1d20 against your score to see if you could perform a difficult action - this was the substitute for having specific skills like arcane knowledge or sneak. The way it would go is that you would explain to the DM what you were trying to do, and the DM would say something like "Ok, that sounds like DEX, so roll 1d20 and see if you get your DEX or lower." It was that simple.
Overall, the "old school" D&D types think that D&D has lost its way, in the sense that a lot of the rules and stats are just game numbers, mostly without any real meaning. What is interesting about PBtA is that it tries to dial it back to the narrative, which is where D&D began (technically the rule narrative was absent, but actual DMs tended to have narratives). However, the method used seems too heavy handed for many D&D players, in that adding more rules to turn numbers into consequences or narrative is just adding more rules. I get it, because for people more used to stories than, say, war games, the method is more intuitive. It also reduces the need to have a good DM, since the DM is following the rules like everyone else. Then again, my opinion is that for all TTRPGs, whether PBtA, old D&D, new D&D, Pathfinder, etc., the benefit of a good DM is that you do not need so many rules, and the first thing you will notice with a good DM is that they will not use all the rules, streamling them to everyone's advantage.
Well said!
Just to clarify, you had bonuses starting at way lower values in the old editions. It just so happens that the bonuses were too flattened and were often related to different things, like difficulty to open doors, number of extra languages, bonus or penalty for magic saves, besides the common attack/damage, AC and HP bonuses. Also, the roll equal and under your ability was a houserule. When you didn't have tables for skill resolution (Greyhawk 0e/ADnD 1e infamous thief and assassin d100 skill table), often times you could just do it without rolling anything. Other times you rolled a d6 to check for success in actions like finding traps/secret doors or listening at doors. The "codified and general 1d20+modifier" aspect of it came only after the 3rd edition.
Overall, as both a player and a GM that dislikes modern D&D and is passionate about the OSR for this type of fantasy game, I agree with your comment. In fact, I'm very interested in trying out Dungeon World or World of Dungeons for my next game.
UPDATE: I've ran my take on World of Dungeons, and it was AWESOME!
I used to play AD&D back in the day, I've played 3e and a bit of 5E, also running PF2e right now. I don't think there's any edition of D&D/pathfinder that does Ability scores right. Old-school: Scores feel pointless until they're really high, after that every point counts. 3e and onwards: Odd numbers don't do anything. Interesting note that in PF2e's 'revised' edition that's coming out next year, you don't even track ability scores, just the modifiers.
@@18ps3anosRoll under ability score is an official rule in BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia, so it absolutely is old school.
I enjoyed watching that Mountain Lion sneaking around in the background, going from bush to bush, and hiding every time Austin glanced over his shoulder.
I love how an RPG channel can include wonderful vistas, and the chance of being mauled by a Puma Concolor (capable of running at up to 80kph).
Made me feel great when I was editing this😅
I’m thinking about going on more hikes for videos, so glad you’re a fan! (Really tempting fate with these apex predators)
The “drawbacks” of dungeon world- namely HP, Ability scores, and polyhedrons are not drawbacks at all for me. They’re strengths! They make it (and other games like ICRPG) perfect DND-adjacent games to get your fellow nerds to try something other than DND. I love dungeon world and Im so happy you keep talking about it. The “sequels”, such as stonetop and ironsworn don’t do it for me. They’re different games. Good old fashioned dungeon world is so hackable you can change it up in a million ways. It does DND the way I like to play.
Just found your channel a week ago and really enjoy your content. Keep it up!
Thanks Christoph! I really appreciate you watching and commenting!
I love it, Dungeon World is so flexible and easy for people to pick up. We just hit our 100th session and 3 year anniversary of our main campaign!
Thats awesome! I envy your campaign longevity
I just ordered a copy of this book. What are some of the other pbtaproducts I should look into getting to cannibalize their systems for this book? Please anyone
Depends on what you're looking to add to it!
My responce to the sanity system is "don't tell me how to rollplay my own character!"
I changed from Dungeon World to The Black Hack as my main fantasy adventuring RPG. I still use things from the DW ecosystem, like The Perilous Wilds or the Dungeon Starters. But after years of running games and hacking/houseruling stuff, I realised it was easier to just grab The Black Hack and retroactively hack THAT to make it more compatible with the pbta-style GMing of DW, while having player rules that resemble D&D a little bit more, like rolling 3d6 for your stats or actually being able to use a d20 to play the game (albeit in roll under fashion). Also The Black Hack is compatible with OSR monsters and adventures, and the fact that it uses Hit Dice as a scaling mechanic for monsters means that I have a little bit more mechanical support for monsters than in DW.
Best of both worlds if you ask me.
Brb looking that up, that sounds super cool and I also enjoy OSR games.
Then Black Hack Is awesome.
There’s a super cool module of DW that converts it into a strange mix of OSR and Pbta called “Freebooters on the frontier”. Best of both of worlds, and it's amazing.
@@N0m0r386 I've heard about that! It sounds like it's just pirates though
I am not gonna shit on the Black Hack since i love the OSR, but "HD" for scaling is what ultimately breaks higher level play in DnD. So I'm not sure if that would be something super appealing to look for in a game.
Is there any place one can go to get into an online Dungeon World game to learn the system?
Yes! We have a discord server for drop in dropout Dungeon World. Newcomers are very much welcome! The link is in the description
Jealous of your hiking trail! I usually get 10K steps by pacing around my house looking at CZcams or Reddit. =P
I'm intrigued by these other mechanics. Conditions sounds cool and maaaaaybe could be hacked into DW, but seems to go against the tradition of 'we be badasses' that's a carryover from D&D. Still I personally wouldn't mind it.
And what would you say makes DW your favorite after the things you say here?
Don't y'all have good hiking up in the Bay Area?
DW HAS conditions, they're just called debilities and it's kinda funky to use them. It's kinda hard to bestow them upon to players.
The opinions expressed in this video are the main criticisms from the Dungeon World community. While I agree that health and damage could be more elegant, I really don't mind all that much how they play out in the current version of the rules. To just completely rip off from Hamza Imran below, I still thing Dungeon World does "Narrative DnD" the best out of any other system and I think it's gamey enough to be appealing to new players coming from your beloved Pathfinder or DnD.
@@tabletopbro And @The Rules Lawyer
I find that it is difficult to make full use of debilities because they are basically an adventure long debuff. They clear themselves after a Long rest in town or after your players drink FIFTY COIN worth of consumable healing potion to regain NO HP.
Out of the DMs on the server I think @Tabletop Bro uses them the most and they are a good way to show a longish term debility within the mechanics of the game. With more physical threats you are unlikely to inflict debilities and are more likely to go for penalties within the fiction like "knocked back" or "you don't have working legs anymore lmao"... Debilities are normally caused by things like "you did not sleep/eat", "a ghost drained your life force", or other things that are hard to describe within fiction for their entirety and are unlikely to drop off for a couple days.
Paladin has some moves that interact with conditions (notably Bloody Aegis and Indomitable) where Paladin can give themselves debilities to shrug off hits and then get bonuses to murderize that guy in specific. To the best of my memory only Paladin has those mechanics!
@@tabletopbro I stay cooped up in my house to look at the phone. But I do runs in my neighborhood and I'm near small parks in the city!
So you like DW most because it does a kind of D&D?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG to put it incredibly simply, I like Fantasy, I like PbtA, Dungeon World does fantasy PbtA the best!
And Swing perfectly encapsulated why debilities are kinda poo compared to conditions
For the ability scores why don't you pay that number of levels to advance the modifier. So, if you start with a -3 you need 3 levels to advance to a -2, 2 to go to -1, 1 to go to 0. Then it's inverse to go from 0 to +1 requires 1 level, +1 to +2 requires 2 levels and finally 3 levels to reach +3.
Surprisingly I agree with everything here; I recently started GM'ing Dungeon World and came to the same conclusion i.e that the health system was bad because it forced me out of the narrative to arbitrarily assign damage to justify the narrative or I have to roll which has its own issues of messing with the narrative(though its good sometimes)
also damage though fun(or sometimes unfun) for the players, I quickly realized that it barely had any impact on the game; if I wanted I could through narrative make sure the enemy never gets hurt and vice versa could always make sure the enemy dies; and rolling bad damage when the enemy is super weak is stupid because narratively the player character should have demolished the enemy.
Though the fact still remains is that the reason I run Dungeon World in the first place is because my players don't like the slow tactical combat of DND and wanted something more cinematic and narrative; and Dungeon World beautifully fulfills the "Narrative DnD" niche; and being honest at first it was a bit hard but as I've gotten more used to it, narrative combat is way more fun as a DM, I can finally have some epic fights rather than fights that look epic in your head but in reality were a 3 hour slog.
Finally I totally agree that the ability score issue is dumb and a non priority.
edit: Though I would like more progression and options; my favourite part of DnD is the Zero To Hero progression where you start as a peasant and end up becoming a demi-god, with all of the awesome magic items and huge amount of abilities to boot.
I pretty much agree with everything you said -- which makes sense cause you're agreeing with me 😂
This video goes over what the Dungeon World faithful dislike about the game, but it's still my favorite system to run and play. You said it far better than I could ever rephrase it, it beautifully fulfills the narrative DnD niche. I think it's just gamey enough to bring in people more used to gamier systems like DnD and Pathfinder, while opening the window the wonderful cinematic world of PbtA.
My one point of contention is in your edit: even at level 1 you're like Aragorn or Batman in DnD... and then you become a demi-god.
I love the choice to stop the video to order McDonald's right before the conclusion. Great vid! looks like the hike was worth it
I took a risk, I’m glad it paid off😂
That’s one of my all time favorite hikes here and it was absolutely worth waking up at 5 in the morning to see the sunrise (that I missed by 10 minutes)
Great editing!!!!😊
Great video as always! By the way, will we see a tabletop bro actual play one day? 👀
Unless a company wanted to pay me a whole bunch of money, probably never😅
I only make videos I myself would watch and I don’t watch actual plays 🤷🏻♂️
HOWEVER there is an actual play of a game I ran on Ronald the Rules Lawyer’s channel!
The part about leveling up the attributes is weird. It actually gets easier the higher you are. You need more xp to raise 1 to a 2, and even less xp to raise it to 3?
The clear reason it exists is because D&D, where you rolled 3d6 in order and the bell curve made higher numbers less likely, so the table of modifiers was also a curve to compensate. Just nostalgia reasons (the table is also identical to the basic (not Advanced) version of old school D&D.
Most of the arguments against DW are pretty dumb, but the Damage/Health system gripes are absolutely deserved. The biggest issue I’ve had has been with the Players health and how unbalanced their increases per level are.
If someone is playing a +0 Con Cleric (who deals d6 damage) and another person is playing a +3 Con Barbarian (who deals d10 damage) by level 5, encounters are impossible for the cleric and a breeze for the barbarian.
That’s a fair criticism!
Another hiker means you chance of being consumed by a mountain lion is decreased by 50%! Is that why you were so happy? Its probably even more than 50% cause if they are polite, they will die loudly and then you will get advanced warning to run.
The damage of DW is why I never just deal damage. I deal a fictional effect and the damage. So when my cousin was getting rocked by three cassowary people he took damage and had the wind knocked out of him, had his elbow broken and had some teeth knocked out. It just feels better than “You take 8 damage”. He literally could have cared less about the number rolled cause he was trying to figure out how to cast a spell when he can’t talk.
Or…just hear me out. You allow a level to increase a stat by .5. So if you have a -1 then 2 levels brings it to 0. If you have a +1 then 2 levels brings it to +2. Is that perfect based on the chart. Nope. Its it close enough for government work? Yup!
Since you are just looking to complain you can freely ignore everything I have said =).
Thank you for being you and entertaining me!
Leave that guy alone, he sounds like a great guy and most likely didn't deserve to be chewed on....again! HA!
Another hiker on the trail means if I get mauled to pieces and DON'T die there's a chance I don't bleed out alone in Cleveland National Forest at 7 am on a Monday.
Definitely agree with you there, that would make a great video! Maybe I could reference dragons and how they have 16 hp....🧐
Hahahaha, we need to incorporate the quadratic formula into Dungeon World, you're a genius!
Thank you for watching as per usue!
I like the .5 solution quite a bit... Maybe for season 2?
@@SwingRipper that’s almost quite literally how it works in Unlimited Worlds
I’m sure I’ve asked this, but are you near Santa Fe?? I notice your MW hat. I’m in Los Alamos!
San Diego my friend. I just love Denver
@@tabletopbro ah ok. I haven’t been to the Denver one yet! But soon! Vegas is my favorite so far.
Why is noone playing the Unlimited Edition? It only uses ability scores for example, advantage and disadvantage instead of +1 forward, and only uses d6 as dice.
Lack of name brand recognition?
@@tabletopbro sadly I don’t for the same reason, I like to play a powerful branded game. But it’s a bad excuse. Unlimited as some good points
I realize I am 7 months late but here it goes regardless...
I recently got into DW/WoDu (World of Dungeons) and the points about HP and Damage brought up to light by you really kept me pondering about this issue I hadn't noticed before (I have not DM'd combat yet).
Anyway, as a lover of all things game design and a fan of Matt Colville myself, here is my take so far:
HP and Damage is the reason why I can safely have the level 1 pc roll the same 2d6+STR against either a worthless goblin or a more experienced humanoid fighter of higher level. Those parameters illustrate experience and how relevant a combatant is, and they are directly tied into the character progression. That is to say that a character would surely perish against something that has way more HP/Damage than him. These parameters also serve as the built-in "fail forward" mechanic of combat, as having the PCs be decapitated in one single blow would be as anticlimactic as having them simply fall into the bottomless pit on a failed roll, HP measures for how long a PC can keep up in a fight despite rolling badly.
Now that we know the purpose of HP and Damage in the first place, how do we solve the problem of how it seems dissonant with the narrative control and free-form action oriented aspects of DW and PbTA systems in general? Well, here is my take on that:
Since HP and Damage are directly tied with the progression system, I would not flat out remove them. Instead, I would elaborate the moves that resort to simple "deal damage". For me, hack and slash shouldn't be purely about whether you hit while being hit back or not... It should be about who gets to seize the advantage and control the fight. There are many ways in which how one could incorporate this... But I'll be taking inspiration from the "Combat Special Effects" from the Runequest systems, which offers a variety of effects one could apply to his target such as disarms, trips, grapples, closing in or out the range based on weapon reach differences... The result of the hack and slash should decide who gets to apply such effects and the intensity of it.
Partial success will have you exchange damage with your target but you will also handle a minor narrative effect against you maybe. Failing will have you receive damage AND an effect, better call for help from your friends! And of course, a success will have you dish out your damage and control the situation against your opponent in some way...
For an added touch of narrative control, don't have your player characters die or face whatever static consequences the moves tell you to when they reach 0 HP... Instead, have your players know that whenever they run out of HP, any following attack received has the potential to incur grievous wounds and other deadly conditions as tailored by the fiction of your enemies! Think of it as a "death's door" state like the one in Darkest Dungeon, and let your players dread the fact you could do whatever you want against their character, should they receive an attack at 0 HP... Maiming and trauma is on the menu and you won't feel obliged to kill a character off unless it feels right to!
Anyway, I'm still deeply in thought about this issue, and I'll have you know I appreciated this video which initially made me grumpy from the bold title haha. Cheers.. ( I like World of Dungeons better than DW btw, go figure)
I REALLY like that idea of 0hp = following attacks could incur grievous wounds and other deadly conditions. That's really clever thinking there. Also I still need to actually read World of Dungeons! It seems like a cool OSR-y version of DDubs, from my very limited skimming of it.
Glad you appreciated the video!
What does 3 points of damage look like. Well when the cougar claws you with both paws and rakes you with hind claws. You aren't dead but you can't brush that off.
*banned*
Yeah they’re all fair criticisms, although I think the criticisms of damage are overstated personally. First because when you’re running a dungeon crawl type game you might want a bit more abstraction while you focus on the exploration - yeah it’s a PbtA game, but it’s meant to emulate 1970s-style D&D too. DW still my favourite RPG.
I think most of the criticisms are overstated tbh. I thoroughly enjoy the system and none of the PbtA hardos criticisms have ever bothered me.
3:07 I'm kinda with your players. I don't think I'd want to roleplay (eg.) Afraid+Angry+Hopeless+Insecure. What would that even *look* like? o_O
Something Dungeon World is fantastic for is transitioning people from D&D to _other games._ Or at least for those less "adventurous" types who are quite comfortable with D&D's inherent jank and afraid that learning another system will be hard and confusing.
Yes, this does mean DW is a rather flawed system because of how much compromise it has with D&D standards. If not for being that "middle ground" kind of game there's no need for it's numerical health and damage, it's tendency to focus more on combat than narrative (though far, far less an actual D&D) for it's abilities (moves) that players take at level up. And yeah, those ability scores.
I still like it as a blueprint, but in truth I just like PbtA as the blueprint and DW is just the most recognizable variant of that system.
I keep looking, but I don't believe there's any _physically published_ spiritual successor for DW within PbtA.
----------------------
Also, since I'm talking about it, I find Forged in the Dark games exceedingly interesting, but also _too_ structured. I still need to try the original, Blades in the Dark, but for the others I've done I have found that I want to loosen things up more. And I _should_ do that, there's nothing stopping me. My real complaint is the _implication_ the game makes with it's mechanical inclusion of "jobs" and "downtown" as distinct gameplay phases. Also, I don't particularly like "classes" as a constraint on characters and have always preferred skill-based systems where you have more freedom for molding your character, just without the more distinct separations that classes make (but I'd argue it isn't much of a benefit for that distinction that is more about terminology than anything else).
What a great take and I'm not just saying that because I agree!
I didn't know Blades in the Dark lead to a bunch of spinoffs, but its definitely been on my list since a subscriber recommended it to me.
Freedom of character creation is also one of my favorite aspects of TTRPG. Do give the QuestWorlds SRD a read if you're a fan of narrative systems and enjoy creative freedom when designing characters.
My problem with Dungeon World is that I don't feel they give enough credit to Vincent Baker (the creator of Apocalypse World). Yes, technically they use the Powered by the Apocalypse stamp, but this is an independent author that most people don't know and he deserves to be credited by name as the system designer. In particular, when Adam Koebel speaks publicly, he can't wait to declare himself the creator of Dungeon World. Really what he did was reskin Baker's game and if he were appropriately humble (imo), he would make an effort to tell people that Vincent Baker created the rules he used.
6:10 SWINGRIPPER MENTIONED POG
Never change
McDouble and hazelnut coffee is the GOAT order
Lifeblood of a nation
"Also, here is a mountain" 😂
I like the products of tectonic activity what can I say?😂
Do you live in abq?
Nope
@@tabletopbro Nice
i counted eleven mountain lions, three were stalking you!
Did you see that big cat run off behind him?
*blocked*
I would kill to find a group to learn to play dungeon world with
If only an incredibly charismatic and talented CZcamsr had set up a discord server for that exact purpose
Does dungeon world have mountain lions?
Homebrew supplement coming out soon 😂
@@tabletopbro lol
I love it, and I love it so much that i did my own space opera version.
And also I agree with you on the community, but in general i find this in every community in ttrpg, so I just stop go read what they say, i just enjoy playing with friends :)
I just write comments during looking at your video so i will just post more comments
I agree with some problems on dungeon world rules, but like for the damage, If you think it in a narrative way it works great but yes you need a good GM that understand very well pbta
You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention
To finish, as an illustrator and creative small guy, I am on my own game based on dungeon world and I try to answer most problem you think of in this video, If you have any idea you would like to see in a game I am open to anything ! And yes Dungeon World is still for now my all time favorite game so far. Sorry for my english i am french, and I really like the way you did that video, so much more entertaining on that vlog format.
What's funny to me is that it was no different when I started playing in the 1e days. People loved D&D, they swore by it, and it was the only game they'd ever play (besides Risk, of course). But omg did they hate it. This rule was wrong, that rule didn't make any sense, hit points are unrealistic, the spell system is stupid, the Monk SUCKS, why aren't there skills, you need another ability score for Comeliness or Perception or Luck or whatever, etc. Pick a rule, there's something wrong with it. The drive to "improve" upon whatever good thing you've got is relentless. Whether you actually can is irrelevant. It's a lot like love. (Or it just *is* love...)
That's why I play Unlimited Dungeons. Only HP issue remains.
It also has one of the most elegant and well-designed logos of any game I've ever seen. I hope they paid that artist well.
I think that keeping in "bloopers" and breaking up the video by showing you going to McDonald's can add some character to a video, though I think you overdid it here. The number of times you cut away to a comment about something unrelated was too high IMO. Overall great video though!
This is the constructive criticism that I love reading. Thanks Vio! I really appreciate it!
I love your videos and I don’t even play these games lol
Possibly the best compliment I could get, thanks!
I FREAKING LOVE DUNGEON WORLD. I love playing and especially Dm'ing it. I settle for 5e. Too many rules in pf2 for me. Love Paizo though.
Even among Dungeon World aficionados, IME, a number of have simply moved on to more polished iterations of Dungeon World - e.g., Freebooters on the Frontiers, Stonetop, Homebrew World, etc. - especially since the original creators of DW aren't really supporting it anymore.
I'm curious, but why is that? Because to be frank, Dungeon World is just about the only Powered by the Apocalypse game that most people will ever hear about. Why aren't the original creators supporting it? Too small a community? Too much saltiness from the other Apoc gamers?
@@markbrooks8623 (1) One author has effectively been excommunicated from the hobby for a controversy they were involved in. (2) The other said that they have complicated feelings about DW, partially due to the other author, and they also said that would do things differently with DW in retrospect. I think that, in part, DW hews towards an OSR D&D aesthetic, which doesn't necessarily jibe well with more contemporaneous sensibilities.
"You have to roleplay as scared until you clear the condition." nope, rulebook literally says that you don't have to, right at the beginning of the section called "conditions".
Damn son you got me there
Fantasy World is a good alternative.
Aren't those other ways of handling wounds just hitpoints. I mean, you only do 1 damage (with a condition) and your hp is just less. If dungeon world had a 6 square wound tracker and players/monsters only did a damage, thats the same thing as having 6 hitpoints. Since a players health never increases from level to level I thought it was easy to tell how hurt they are. Plus, If we want to talk about immersion breaking systems. You just need to look at discern realities, a player gets to ask a preset list of questions and I answer them. that is so metagaming lol. Come to think of it, a lot of the "Moves" just present you a short list of option that the player o GM chooses from and Most PBTA system have these sorts of things. When I played I felt more like I was telling a story about my character not, I was the character. Dungeon World is awesome and a fun experience, just a lot different. Sorry for the novel, Lol.
Shhhhhh don't tell PbtA die hards that.
I agree discern realities (or really all of the moves) can be immersion breaking. In my experience the best way to handle moves in general is just have the players not even think about them and instead describe what they're doing. If a move triggers, THEN I bring it up and have them roll. But I think that level of immersion breaking is necessary to run a game ya know.
You're good about the novel!
@@tabletopbro LOL, yeah your never going to have a system that has a 100 percent immersion. I think the best part of DW is handling combat, it's so fluid and seamless it pars up perfectly with the rest of the game.
True, almost as much Apocalypse World.
No one hates dungeon world more than the dungeon world community... lololol
Meow Wolf Rocks
Where the hell do you live today your McDonalds has hazelnut? Mine only has black, w/cream, caramel, and mocha.
Southern California. But Maccas all the way to Colorado have it (I took a road trip out there and lived off hazelnut iced coffee, not that you asked)
Masks is the best pbta and superhero ttrpg game in my opinion
Best PbtA? Yes. Not sure about superhero though, the more I play it the more it seems to just be about teenagers.
@@tabletopbro well its suppose to represent the teen superhero genre and it does it pretty well.Made some really memorable characters in this system.And didnt really run into the problem that M&M has with some characters being way more op than others and participating better in fights.
@@gamedragonja8962 oh I know! I’m a big Masks fan (you should check out my videos on the subject ;) ) BUT in my experience my players would prefer Worlds in Peril as they’re not interested in playing teenagers
@@tabletopbro well to be fair im a teenager so I directly relate to these type of characters(reason my fav show of all time is mha).There was this one campaign were we had to directly represent ourselves if we were in a superhero universe.I played a scion with daddy issues lol
I am not a 5e faithful so that must be why I instead want to hack it into AD&D?!?!
I will probably not play Dungeon World either I hate the circling the drain mechanics so I’d just have to hack this game too.
Wym circling the drain mechanics?
If you want more of an AD&D experience I’d recommend looking into Old School Essentials, or any of the OSR titles for that matter. Might be up your alley!
Ahh so it uses hit points? My mistake. The damage clock is the circling the drain mechanic I was talking about.
@@Wiseblood2012 That's absolutely hilarious. Yeah it uses hit points, that's one of the criticisms PbtA hardos have against the system.
I won’t be playing it because Luke Crane is a commie
Pretty sure I saw a mountain lion behind you a couple of times.
This guy's got jokes
Well, dungeon world tried to be a dungeon crawler, I can blame them for making a dungeon crawl too gaming.
It made sense for the time 🤷🏻♂️
All health systems are HP systems in disguise and im tired of pretending they are not.
HP is fine cause its simple. I dont need every game to have me go wald down a chain of connected game mechanics when I take damage.
Based take
Dont understand any of the complaints or how a system can become aged in 10 years, where all the new players came from in the same 10 years and why RPGs now alsp need to have the "Always NEW, always HYPE , NEXT BIG THING" Disease
Okay you just sold a Masks bundle on drivethrurpg lol
@MagpieGames 😂
dungeon world or IronSworn?
idk enough about Ironsworn to make an intelligent recommendation
@@tabletopbro I may be running a game of Dungeons World in the next few weeks. Any recommendations for a newbie like me?
@@mikekoms2193 as long as everyone’s having fun, that’s all that matters. You don’t need to do that much prep. Practice your improv skills if you think they’re lacking
I just wanted to let you know, I just ordered Dungeon World. It's all your fault. I hope you're happy. Okay? 😎
I don't see any fatal flaw here. Pretty much all those complaints can be easily modded.
DW is the WORST game to introduce new players to PbtA. I guess the creators were tying to get D&D players to give it a try. Great vid!
From my experience, the D&D overlap is what makes it good for PbtA because there's enough familiarity with a known system that they're not like "whaaaaat??"
Like when I tried introducing 5e players to Masks it went VERY poorly because it was just TOO much of a departure from what they already knew.
@@tabletopbro That's a great point! 👍
Word of advice, stay away from Powered by the Apocalypse.
My gut reaction was to say absolute L take but I’m curious, why do you think people should stay away from PbtA?
dungeon world has its charm but it’s the worst pbta game tbh
It's definitely not a "pure" PbtA game. That's for sure
@@tabletopbro i do really like its aesthetic, and i loved the section in game mastering. I think i’m just not a good enough GM to make it work for me though.
If you would use your cap you wouldn't have to squint ;)
The shadow looked bad 🤷🏻♂️
@@tabletopbro being comfy > looking good.
Also not squinting makes humans look a bit better too.
Are you my grandpa?
@@zacheryredden5417 not yet
Dude I wanna watch this but realky wish you would remove some of the distracting interludes. They are too plentiful. And not relevant enough.
At some point, you're not playing a game anymore. You're just playing make believe.
"Narrative" is cope.
My brother in Christ all TTRPGs are playing make believe
@@tabletopbro not at all. I can strip all the make believe out of my games and still have fun. TTRPGs started as very advanced chess, and that's what they still are at heart. If you've lost all semblance of the wargame then you're just playing pretend. Which is fine. But it's a non-game.