Broski: "Pads are possibly the lightest and most portable devices you can choose from" Whips out my Haute42 Board Mini I've been hiding between my ass cheeks: "Heh!"
I play the game to have fun and use a stick over a pad despite having played enough SF2 on SNES that I'm perfectly fine on either one. Totally with you there.
Where I'm from there was no arcade scene whatsoever, so my first introduction to decent arcade hardware was the Madcatz TE1 in 09. Any Fighting game before that was played on pad. Using the 360 D-Pad for SFIV was out of the question so I made the jump to stick. Never get tired of that Sanwa JLF clicking... Really fun to use and the durability of these things is something to behold.
Pad’s most gigantic pluses for the vast majority of people asking this question is that you already own one or more of them, you’ve been using one your entire life, and it is the most intuitive option for your brain. Very few people have booked a flight for their video game career.
Ive been jumping and missing my down diagonals on stick the last couple months and its driving me nuts lol. Probably gunna switch to leverless just for that
This is why I picked up hitbox. Doing dps on a pad felt bad and my hands felt awful after play sessions. I feel like the difference in controllers isn't that significant though and it's great we see top players across all methods
I used to have this problem at the start, but your fingers adapt quickly. I've been playing on pad for a few months and I never get any sort of pain on my fingers. If the issue is your hand and not fingers through... you could probably solve that with a better grip
Wrong. The optimal control is one stick and two buttons one for punches and one for kicks. To get harder strikes you whack the button harder. Would explain more but have to go for orthopedic surgery...
"If you think sticks look cool, by all means get a stick" - I'm so glad you mentioned this. If you're new and you're ambivalent to input methods, think about what's optimal and convenient. But if some controller out there lives rent free in your head you have permission to go buy it. It'll be fine. By the time the difference in optimization is a major factor in your performance you'll have a lot more experience and you'll know what you want, and by then you'll have definitely gotten your money's worth out of any controller you're infatuated with right now.
Having used all 3 input methods I can say that the biggest advantage of leverless is how quickly and comfortably you can go from advancing forward to blocking. It's instant. The benefits of the SOCD tricks are pretty overstated IMO (for SF6 at least, Tekken SOCD KBD is amazing).
yeah I have to agree with you there. I also think the SOCD DP motion is no joke (press and hold forward, press and hold down, press and hold up, punch).
@@jasonh6312 Street fighter will seriously give you that? SOCD DP that I learned for Strive was hold f, press b and d, release b, attack. Was barely any faster than the manual input, and only sometimes at that, and I was far more likely to fuck it up, so I just stuck with manual. That method seems substantially better, and kinda messed up that it works lol
@@connorsutton8745 Every SF game after 3s gives you credit for the input by facerolling. DF DF P is a valid dragon punch from SF4 onwards. It's an abomination SF6 decided that was too hard and added modern
Stick just makes more intuitive sense for how my brain percieves the motion inputs as shapes rather than directions. Like, leverless is a sequence of key presses and releases, but stick is physically drawing a quarter circle or a Z. This also makes it easier to mirror the motions for P2 side as it's just a mirror of the same shape on stick but on leverless I'm using a different sequence of finger movements.
I'm a crusty old stick boomer and I switched to pad for SF6. Me personally, I would recommend a pad with several characteristics. A good d-pad, I recommend Saturn style pads. 6 face buttons and importantly (which is quite rare), 10 *unique* buttons. Most pads with 6 face buttons, the rightmost facebuttons (i.e HP/HK) are *duplicates* of LB/RB for a total of 8 buttons. Some pads however will allow you to incorporate L3/R3 giving you 10 unique buttons across the face and triggers/shoulders. This is important as you can now have 4 macros on the triggers/shoulders instead of 2. Very useful in SF6. For example you can now have PP, KK, DI and Parry on the triggers/shoulders. Or, if you were a dirty SOCD cheater, you could map directions to the spare shoulder buttons for SOCD shenanigans. The Xbox/PS4 (not Switch) version of the Power A wired fightpad is an example of this which ime is a very cheap and durable pad. Also look at 8bit-do.
I'm not about to disagree with most of what you've said, since I think most of what you've said is true, and I am a bit biased given I have been playing Stick for like 16 years, but I want to put forth the idea that there is an ergonomic/accessibility argument to be made for new players to learn arcade stick in certain situations. To be clear, I've played on pad and leverless for a few years each as well and I can pretty definitively that Stick is the most comfortable for me and it isn't close. Context: I have wrist pains due to a genetic quirk and long story short, I have to make adjustments to how I use a computer and mouse and a variety of other everyday things to do what I enjoy doing. Pads require a harder grip for me and doing most of everything with my thumbs can be downright painful sometimes. Leverless have a similar issue where the way I feel I need to splay particularly my movement hand out like a piano player and make heavy use of my pinky and ring ringer to do more complex inputs is extremely uncomfortable after more than 45 minutes. Levered controllers let me make use of my shoulder and elbow for movement, with smaller movements being very linear motion of my fingers (I use two fingers to "plink" a forward dash on stick for example), it just causes a lot less issues for me personally. Some of that could be that I've just been doing it much longer so the muscles I use for it are more developed and so it compensates for that, but I think making the blanket statement of "New players shouldn't learn stick unless they think it looks cool" kind of misses the point of different control styles all together. When it comes to getting new people in to the scene, I agree that telling everyone "just play stick" like we used to is dumb and bad for a variety of reasons, but the conversation shouldn't now be "just play leverless" or "just play pad" or "which of these is good and which is garbage", it should be "Try out the ones you can and pick the one that suits you the best." Variety in Comfort and Accessibility at the most basic entry point is how we get people to join the community,
I also play Arcadestick because of wrist issue, so I totally get where you are coming from. I have an RSI in both of my wrists and playing leverless or pad for long periods of times makes my hands and wrists hurt like mad. Stick completely solves this problem AND also felt much more intuitive and fun for me.
Yah I’m a newish player in FG’s (started out with strive) and stick is basically the best option for me. My left thumb is a little bit weird so playing on pad for half an hour is a bit painful and after trying out a lever less layout on my keyboard, I realized I just wasn’t getting the hang of inputs. Playing on stick is basically the best way for me because it doesn’t fuck up my hands and it’s the most intuitive to me. On top of that when I play older GG’s that have weirder inputs, they’re actually easier on stick than they are on pad
Accessibility I think is the best argument. I play leverless for this exact reason as well because the way other controllers force a posture I don't like, and I use pad regularly for other games. Since I've played piano all my life, leverless is a very comfortable posture for me for my shoulders, wrists, and back, but I also require a relatively strict layout that means I can't use things like a snackbox because my hands are too close and I have to use a desk instead of having it on my lap, all things that cause tension to build up. Saying any controller should be avoided or are cheating and should be banned, is essentially saying some people shouldn't be allowed or be discouraged from playing fighting games, and it's such a stupid argument because so much of hard execution is very strict manual timing stuff that is equally hard on all controllers. If leverless gives any advantages in modern games it's on learning entry level execution/bnbs, which should tell you who the people complaining about it are. And even beyond that, once you've got good comfortable execution, the actual hard parts of fighting games is like, playing neutral and defense and managing your mental stack.
yeah the discourse around these controllers has just gotten insane to me, everyone obsessed over the infinitesimal advantages that a leverless offers vs pad, or pad vs stick (which has shown to not even make an actual difference, stick players still winning EVO and CC for example), and there's no discussion over what actually feels good to use and doesn't kill your fingers or your hands.
If you told me in 2009 that stick would generally be considered the "worst" of the controllers and the argument would be between a glorified keyboard and a d-pad controller for what is best, I'd have laughed quite a bit at you. But here we are. You can pry my stick from my cold dead hands, though. It might not be optimal, but I like it.
I think that's the general consensus. Stick is better for two things: If you're used to stick, and have grown up with it. Giving up 5+ years of muscle memory is always a big nono. If any stick player tried to switch to pad or leverless at this point, they'd perform worse in pretty much every major, and if you're playing in qualifiers, you don't have a year to learn a new control method, you have until your next qualifier tournament. This is the reason why many top players are still stick players, it's simply impossible to remain actively competitive while throwing away a huge amount of muscle memory. The other is like you said, for fun factor. There's definitely something about playing on stick that just feels like you're gaming. Leverless is objectively better than stick. I don't have enouhg experience with pad in FGs to argue one way or another, but even if there's no objective argument for picking up stick over pad/leverless if you're new, there's also rarely a good reason to switch from a control method you've used for years, maybe decades to learn leverless. The one reason I can think of is if you have wrist issues on stick.
What a surprise. Modern fighting games designed with pads in mind for consoles with simplified motion inputs are better on pads. Try kof xiii or 2002 and u will wish your stick back in half a minute.
That's because in 2009 the execution in games was still hard enough that you could see the flaws of pad. SF6 doesn't have mash specials for the sake of appealing to pad players.
If you like stick better that's fine, I just think a lot of people are tired of being dunked on for their choice of peripheral by oldheads who grew up in arcades, coping about how it's broken despite being literally as you said, a glorified keyboard. Those who grew up playing on keyboard have that established muscle memory that makes them lean towards choosing leverless, just as stick players have an inherent bias in what they find comfortable. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying that this dumb drama around it is just the whole "old good, new bad" that keeps popping up in the FGC about literally everything.
I've tried all 3 over the years and I'm currently favouring levellers, for no reason other than I'm old and the pad quickly causes me pain now. I built my own button box with those Brook boards, that's a fun project in itself. Recently grabbed a Haute42 T16 and I'm really enjoying it. I still like pad a lot. It's purely a comfort thing for me though.
After playing Leverless and trying stick, I have WAY more fun on stick, which for me makes me play better. I think pad and leverless are objectivley better in terms of persomance but I do think people underestimate the fun factor.
I think there's an enjoyable, tactile element to playing on stick that the others lack. That being said I played on stick for the better part of a decade, so maybe I'm just justifying all the sunk cost of developing skills on stick. But I still have slowly been learning leverless for convenience, the snackbox micro is just easier at events.
Nothing beats being able to have your trusty pad wherever you are. I play SF6 on both PC and PS5, theres no hassle to switch, I use dual sense on both. If I'm going to a friend, traveling abroad, no matter what i know I'll have a dual sense handy. Plus, I use Dpad so there's no accidental input for me, never understood why people complain so much about it.
I recently switched from stick to pad just because I couldn't be bothered to plug back in my arcade stick after playing SF6's World Tour, and Grand Bruise in GBFVSR. It felt awkward to use in ranked at first, but I got used to it eventually.
Pad has one huge downside that single-handedly forces me to take long breaks from fighting games. Street Fighter destroys the rubber under d-pad from aggressively inputing dp motions and I'm kind of sick of replacing it every half a year. An entirely new controller may last up to a year, but still.
@@RobTcobra I even did it wrong until I was 18. Me and brothers thought it was down->forward->down->forward punch for almost 2 decades. So we'd mash to get that shoryuken out. XD
I got an arcade stick because I couldn’t get on with d-pad and my dual sense analogues kept developing drift. Yeah, it’s heavy and unwieldy but it’s durable and - most importantly - really fun to use.
Two pads won't necessarily feel the same either. I don't know if pros bother doing repairs on their pads or just buy new ones; but I personally replace my dpad's membrane every once in a while when it starts wearing out. Two pads can feel different due to different amounts of wear on the dpad membrane (or even having different types of membranes). I don't suppose that should matter much, tho.
@@josemel12 That's not the point! The point is that whenever anyone makes any arguments it's essentially just because they've used it since they were born! "X feels more natural" to me kind of arguments. Use whatever works! It's ok!! I think the only big objective argument here is that most people will have a pad at home and not a dedicated stick device
@@mishatarkusCelsius is just better. Try and find someone who grew up with Celsius and wish they'd use Fahrenheit? It's going to be tough. But shake a tree and a lot of discontented Fahrenheit users will fall onto the ground. The beauty of the controllers in the FGC is you choose yours, not anyone else's.
I'm kinda surprised you didn't go over in-game experience, I think there are a lot of valid discussions to be had about ergonomics for pads, especially ones like the 8Bitdo Neogeo pads, that are designed specifically for fighting games, and the way modern games are being designed around the conceit that most players use a pad, it's definitely something worth talking about. when i got into fighting games via DBFZ, i tried and absolutely despised a regular controller, and opted for a stick as soon as i got the money, but a lot of my friends who got into fighting games because of Strive and SF6 prefer/stick to pad. As I mentioned, there are controllers designs specifically for fighting games too, that modify designs to accommodate them - I can never go back to a regular controller's d-pad after the Neogeo pad, there are controllers that have microswitched d-pads which are way better, and some are even modular and let you swap the right analogue stick out for the extra 2 buttons that make a standard 3x3 layout (assuming you're not playing a game like Strive, or Modern in SF6, which are all but designed to work on pads). Also, one of the two biggest reasons for sticks being preferred over pads (the other being the obvious motion inputs) is having a finger ready for every button, especially for combo strings, and these days that's not even a problem. Games like SF6 and Strive are designed so where combo strings are never so tight, compared to something like SF4 that almost demands an absurd level of dexterity and muscle memory to pull off something like a Focus Attack cancel off of a Shoryuken into an Ultra. As somebody very much into controllers, it's a super interesting discussion, and I love exploring the more off-beat controllers that somehow still work fine for fighting games. At the end of the day, it comes down to comfort, preference, and experience, and since multiple top FGC players have won majors with controllers, dating all the way back to MVC2, controllers are not going to be overshadowed any time soon. (though i will also say, as somebody that's staunchly all-button, while a joystick isn't as optimal, it does have a very distinct "feel" to it that can't be replicated, and imo is my preferred control scheme over all-button for non-fighting game 2D/arcade games)
the only problem with pads (or atleast the ds4 pad in specific) is how fast they break, I had 2 and they died very fast cause it would read downback as down or just back and I would get hit by a low and explode
Not sure how often you read comments Broski but this is something that I have always wanting to express. All your points are good, I would love to actually use pad myself. I have used all controllers listed in here (also keyboard) and I stick with Leverless for ONLY one reason... Dashes. I'm a 38 year old player, I have used pads since I was 5 year old child, even having fighting games on pad, but I was never able to get use to the dashes. Maybe for you is something so easy and intuitive that you don't think about it anymore, but I played for years and years and I still hate the feeling of dashing on pad. Unfortunately all my favorite fighting games uses dashes and they are so crucial that I stick with Leverless at the moment. All the inconvenient that you mentioned are true, and I hate them, would love to use pad, but if in more than 30 years didn't learn to dash in pad, not sure If I have the patience for more years doing it, I prefer the struggle of everything else in Leverless against the pain of not having dashes.
Broski, I want to know your opinion on a specialised custom control key rebinding for a pad. I'm a pad enjoyer but D-Pad qcf/qcb inputs have always been inconsistent for me, I wanted the precision of leverless movement with the comfort and convenience of pad. So using Steam's rebinder, I mad R1 into D-Pad right, and L1 into D-Pad left. D-Pad down remains down. Flicking the right stick in any direction does DI and fllicking (or holding) the left stick in any direction is Parry. I experimented with X for Jump but in the end I put it back to D-Pad up. Some people think it sounds crazy but honestly its a surprisingly good set up! I recommend trying it for the content!
i didn't get grandfathered in to them but personally speaking switching to arcade stick improved my game considerably because i have stupid giant hands and i feel considerably more precise on them than i did with pads. as for why i haven't switched to hitbox beyond that? well uhhh money mainly lol. i do plan to eventually
also if we're going to talk about out of game advantages, playstations annoying habit of keeping pads synced and making you have to forcibly desync it through complex menuing, or avoid accidentally hitting the home button lest you ruin someone else's game... is a problem i'm glad i don't have to be part of anymore
When you do, you may want to look into a leverless with a bigger button layout using all 30mm buttons. I have an enormous friend (6'6 350lbs with proportional hands) who is trying out a "conventional" 24mm button leverless and is having some big problems with his hands cramping up cause the layout is too tight for him
@@connorsutton8745 i was considering one of the smaller ones to be honest (mainly so as i get used to it, taking both sticks to my locals wouldn't be a huge pain in the ass). i'll give it some thought, thanks. i'm about the same size as your mate but not nearly as heavy, so most standard arcade button sizes suit me well. that said. I am partial to a stick that i can easily fit on my lap
@@Hurtdeer hopefully it's not a problem for you. I'd encourage you to try to get your hands on a "normal" 24mm leverless for a few hours if possible to make sure it doesn't hurt your hands before you drop a wad of cash on something that won't work for you. All the best!
Can i really trust the opinion of a filthy analog stick enjoyer tho? Great vid, broski Also in defense of arcade sticks: both the evo champ and capcom cup champ won it all on arcade stick! And they're fun as hell to use
@@RobTcobra Broski himself has mentioned multiple times that he plays on the analog stick because that's just how he learned since it's most comfortable for him. It's not that serious homie. Just light good humored ribbing
Hey Broski. I've been playing SF on arcade sticks since 2011, but I don't get enough opportunities to go to majors or even locals. The few times I have managed, I agree with all the negative points given for them! It sucks ass! Even worse if your stick doesn't have a carrying handle (like my new one). I really don't see myself learning any SOCD stuff in order to get a competitive edge. I'm nearing 31 years old, and I bet I could learn, but it's just a matter of willpower, I guess lol. Plus, I fairly recently bought a stick, like just before sf6's release... But damn, do those pads with 6 face buttons look tempting sometimes. My biggest mental hangup with pad is not having my buttons lined up in order of strength. And Modern controls break my brain. Your points outside the game for pad might just convince me to get one though... Good video, man.
One thing that pad is better for is doing z inputs and super inputs from crouch normals. I was using the Hori Fight Commander because the PS5 controller's dpad was a no go. Other than that, everything has been easier for me since switching from pad to leverless. That said, I love to hear your logic. You are way better and know much more than me, so I am sure I will learn something.
You mean better vs arcade stick? Because on leverless, if you're crouching, you just double tap forward and you get the dp motion and for super, it's also very easy because you double tap forward+up (tap and hold on the last press) and you get the double qcf for supers
Fight Sticks are my preferred input method just due to the ergonomics of using it. Pad makes my hands hurt like hell after a play session and I've never had that issue during a whole year of playing Stick versus a decade of playing pad and feeling pain every session
As someone who is both prone to RSI and has had several injuries to my wrists and hands hitbox has been a life saver. No way I could play as much as I do on stick or pad. Also - regarding repair a lot of the smaller form factor hitboxes - all the stuff based on flatbox - are just using keyboard switches. You could easily carry extra - I would if I was a tournament player. They're like less than 10 dollars for 10.
The cool thing about leverless is that most of them use hotswap mechanical switches. Even the razer kitsune supports 3rd party switches. Just keep a handful of those whenever you go to a venue. Also, I think the thinness of a leverless shouldn't be underestimated. They're as thin as most tablets, so you can cram them easily in the laptop compartment of most book bags. With a pad, you'd need a special carrying case or you risk damaging the sticks.
On the issue of accessibility of specialist controls: I live in Brazil, and I started playing Street Fighter 6 when it was released. As I played in arcades as a child, I decided to buy an arcade stick. But I wanted the best parts for my contoller, so I started buying them online and they all had to be imported (the ones I found in Brazil were extremely more expensive and there was no way to be sure they were original pieces). Well, in the end, by the time all the parts arrived and I had my arcade stick controller ready, I had already been playing with a PS4 controller for months and was already so used to it that it was no longer worth switching to the arcade stick. But at least the arcade stick it looks really nice and will make a nice piece of decoration.
Stick is best and always will be. You get the clickety-clack of buttons and the wiggetty-wag of the stick. I'll always have more fun than you are hitting your mushy buttons. Ergo, I win. 😅
They're all solid. Its whatever you're comfortable with. (I played stick on UMVC3 but pad for SF). Only downside with stick though is that it's so fuggin loud and obvious when you're buffering on stick.That's why some players have hilariously covered their sticks during tournament's
Newer Leverless designs such as the ABMX from JasensCustoms have drop in microswitches, so if your button isnt functioning it is very easy to swap that microswitch and be back in the action within minutes.
the most important factor which kinda seems ignored here is comfortability? box controllers in melee became popular because they are purported as much more comfortable for many players compared to the gcc. sticks and leverless controllers have very similar layouts, making switching between them trivial if necessary, whereas pad has a completely different system that may be really uncomfortable for players. a lot of emphasis is placed on travel, even though many players will rarely or never go to tournaments, but everybody needs a comfortable controller layout
The only reason you should choose arcade stick is either if you're used to it or if you just prefer how it feels. I've always played with controllers and recently picked up a stick and it does feel massively different than a controller. Sure it may not be easier but some people might just prefer how nice it feels etc.
I'll be honest as someone who only got into fighting games with SF6 I kinda regret not giving Pad a fair shake. I started out on keyboard which made the transition to leverless fairly natural but I am essentially learning both a new genre and a new controller whereas if I just went with Pad I would be able to use a control set that I have more or less decades of experience with. And the more I play the game the more I think having a stick available for certain inputs would be really nice.
Well, the SOCD inputs with three directions are still quite useful. Brian’s video that you mentioned goes into this specifically. Also, my Hypercube by TSRACT is probably the lightest controller I’ve ever held.
i started with pad then switched to stick, and from an ergonomic stand point, it was a blessing. took a few weeks to get used to and it was great, overall improved my inputs and made playing my game at the time (3rd strike) much easier now it broke and ive been playing 6 with pad and honestly, its been pretty good. the dpad feels better in this game for some reason, maybe because its less strict. still miss stick tho
@@Blustride i bought the parts and the cables, but somethngs missing. the thing that broke is the joystick, couldnt figure out the cables. im trying to figure it out but its kinda frustrating and where i live they dont sell anything, i have to import and it takes like 2 weeks
The part about things breaking at an event is really important imo. It's happened to me a couple times; once being my very first EVO in 2014 during pools. I was using arcade stick and was able to borrow someones, then i had to borrow a third person's because i had to eventually play the person i borrowed from first, lol. Back then, arcade sticks were the norm. Nowadays i would have trouble borrowing one since leverless and pad took over. Same reason why i avoid getting used to some 13 or 16 button leverless. If that thing has issues and i have some overly unique layout, then im gonna play poorly if i have to borrow someone's standard build. At home, none of this matters. But if you're paying good money to travel to events even as a casual like me, then it's worth considering. A stock 1st party Pad is undoubtedly advantaged here and multiple other areas, despite it being the option i choose the least.
I made an in depth tutorial covering SOCD Dash, SRK, crosscuts, sonic booms for pad vs Hitbox. Glad to see this tech getting pushed out as well as the swapped analog portion that makes it extremely viable.
I always had trouble with inputing directions and motions (especially fast) with a dpad. Maybe my thumbs are not made to have the required articulation, i don't know. Switching to leverless has basically eliminated that problem for me. After a short (an hour or two) adjustment, i input directions on leverless both faster and more consistent than i ever did with a dpad even with over 100 hours of practice. This alone makes leverless for me the superior controller.
Does anyone have any recommendations for Xbox game pads because I only see a few arcade sticks, I’ve been searching for a game pad but only seen them for PS and PC.
I think the form factor argument can go a few directions. For casuals/hardcore audience (but non pro), smaller leverless's like Snackbox, Haute42 pads, etc, are honestly more portable than controllers because of their form factor. Being flat means it fits comfortably into pockets and flat into backpacks with other stuff in it. It just depends on how you're choosing to carry it and where. I agree though that for competitors, where you really do want one of the higher quality leverless controllers, like a Kitsune (the smallest one I can think of with this quality), or even bigger ones like Hitbox, or a Vitrix, then pads are definitely way easier to handle.
It's okay to just say that pad is very convenient, widely accessible, and is just as competitively viable as any other controller type. The only downside is their durability and pad break-in period and shorter lifespan than arcade buttons (especially mechanical buttons) and microswitches on a lever. Stick and leverless is more of an investment up front (usually), but will have better durability. No wrong answers. It's really that simple in my opinion. One thing i will say is that leverless and stick players out of curiosity or necessity usually get comfortable replacing and tinkering with parts. It's not a big ask for long-time stick players to swap or replace components, for example. Very normal to always carry extra buttons to a tournament, too. Just something to think about. Love from a boomer stick player who's only real concern is that no one gets FOMO due to their controller of choice. Upsides and downsides to EVERY controller type.
11:09 Using this method of holding three directionals is essential for DP into lvl3 on leverless imo (hold fwd, pres n hold down for diagonal input, press back for down input, release down and back, press punch for dp, repeat for super cancel).
i think comfort and personal preference are the #1 reason to use any input method, but I disagree with you on what you said about stick being "useless" i think it heavily comes down to comfort, preference, and what you find intuitive. for me, when i was starting out, i was very bad at doing motion inputs, and clean inputs in general on the D-pad on my controller, I found myself much more consistent doing inputs on the analog stick because i could "feel" them out. For that reason I got a stick, and it instantly improved my play significantly. The feedback of using a stick genuinely helps my play and do inputs. for a similar reason, I'm strongly encouraging my buddy who's trying to learn FGs to get a hitbox, because he likes playing rivals on aether on KB more than pad.
I gave up on pad and moved onto keyboard and then to leverless because pad just kept hurting my thumb after too long and I didn't feel precise. Also I use a Haute42 g16 weight of the controller is a complete non-issue. I haven't used a pad for a fighting game in months and and just thinking about it again makes my thumb hurt. I'm never going back as long as I can help it.
After using a controller for a long time, the only reason I ever wanted a stick or leverless (recently grabbed a haute M16 I think it's called) is because it looked fun af. The buttons looked clicky clacky like my keyboard, and I like
While there are plenty of heavy ones, I just weighed mine on a food scale and my leverless is 20g lighter than a DS5. (It's a jfedor style flatbox.) It's one circuit board, 12 keyswitches, and 3d printed plastic. (No wires to freak out TSA.) "I can get a replacement at Target" is a really solid argument, though.
I have old man hands, so that's a no go for pad in FGs. That, and I grew up in the arcades and owning sticks too. Switching to leverless was so much better for me.
I honestly would play pad, since it fits right in the hands and is a great option. But, I can't press two face buttons at the same time with pad. If someone have some tips, I would appreciate
pads life expectency is bad though, i had a sanwa stick that i used for literally 8 years, and i had to replace the switches on the joystick once(a 10 dollar part that takes a minute to fix). My fighting game friend goes through a pad every 6 months. I play leverless now, and i expect my current controller to last for 5+ years.
there's like an inconsistency between the face buttons and the triggers though, i hate it, it makes timing awkward for me since i'm a arcade stick user.
I respect Broski immensely but most of his videos have a very pro-player slant to them. A huge portion of the reason he gives for pad being better is that it travels better, is easier to carry, is replaceable when you are travelling, etc. And here's the thing. I'd guess probably less than 5% of SF6 players ever go to an in-person event AT ALL, and less than 1% are ever going to TRAVEL to an event.
I use an xbox controller because I'm used to it for playing for over 15 years now. I also have a custom xbox controller though the paint is messed up now so i have to get it replaced soon
I play on all-button controller but I’ll give another benefit of pad that you didn’t mention. When playing at a tournament, there is no guarantee that you will have access to a comfortable chair and table to rest your stick or hit box on. I personally do not like resting my hit box/all button on my lap and prefer a nice elbow height table. Holding a pad in your hand solves this issue. Thanks for the video!
one huge advantage for gamepads that I can think of: they are silent. that matters both in-game and outside of it (opponents can't listen to your button presses or your significant other not getting annoyed by your mashing). on the flipside, leverless wear and tear is really low and they can be super resilient if you ask me. I know this is entirely anecdotal, but until now I changed one Sanwa button on my leverless built in 2010 (!), it costed me like 15 euros (because I couldn't order just 1 button, I had to order 5). friends who play on pad had been constantly replacing them throughout the years.
@@roboticChristmassElf yeah, I know. I've recently switched to a Haute42 with low profile silent buttons and they're awesome.. but for virtually all gamepads out there that comes as a default.
You didn't talk about some disadvantages of pads. Leverless and sticks last WAY more hours than pads. I've gone through so many pads in my life from fighting games. I bought one leverless years ago and never had to replace it. The point I thought you were gonna bring up that you didn't was that leverless is less intuitive to use. I wouldn't reccommend playing on leverless if you have not played on pad or stick before.
Pad can actually do the 3 directional inputs at once, holding left with one and and down-right with the other will achieve the same result as hitbox. Standard SOCD dp uses 3 inputs, holding left+down+right to get a clean down input, imo not very niche at least on leverless.
I like a square gate stick over pad for: Spinning pile drivers Claw/Guile Ultras in SFIV Kof Supers - especially tiger-knee supers like Leona V-Slasher. SNK hops I'm sure leverless is better, but it just makes every input feel like entering a cheat code. I need pad for SF6, tho - i gotta have DI/DP on shoulders.
I have yet to watch the video but ill come back to this comment once I have. I honestly think that its VERY dependant on what type of fighting game you are playing and what characters you tend to play. I tend to play a lot of scrambly 3/4 button anime games, rekka characters and characters that dont have DPs, so I like pad for its symmetry (dont have to worry about p1/p2 side differences) and intuitive binds for macros (triggers for dash / throw / burst etc). I dont actually get all that much out of playing on leverless even though I own all 3 controller types. You really can make a case for pad vs leverless imo, not so much stick unless you play tekken. Sidenote, my thumbs start hurting if I block too long :^) edit: bit into the video and I will say one negative about pads is pads tend to massively degrade in quality after a while, and you cant really repair them. Usually if something starts to wear out you just have to buy a new one. This is less of a problem with high quality controllers, but they tend to be expensive enough that you're basically just shuffling around cost of replacement and how long its going to last. Otherwise I mostly agree, pad is just a better QOL choice.
A Haute 42 g16 is 360g / 16mm in height. It's easier to drop and forget in my backpack than my PS5 controller. It's a almost the same footprint but a lot flatter and rectangular. It's also cheap, in a tournament you could easily carry two in your backpack without sweating.
11:10 Pressing 3 directions on a leverless isn't just for niche situations. Getting down+forward+up for fireball or forward+down+up for DP are consistent and widely useful because of the speed of not having to release anything. Also a snackbox micro or something is wider than a controller, yeah, but it's also way flatter.
I use duel sense (ps5 controller) and i love it. i mapped the touch pad to di and I haven't looked backed . The dpad has pretty glairing issues tho, with input bleeding on the cardinal directions. (unintentional jumps) and the triggers are very spongy and activate at diff points depending where you place your finger. i just ordered a battle beaver with modded buttons i hope it solves my issues.
I always used pad but started getting trigger thumb so I switched to leverless. I can now do most things easier with it besides DP. And no more thumb issues.
For me personally I find the arcade stick the most comfortable to play for long sessions out of the three input methods, and I didn't grow up in arcade or anything. I can't get used to leverless with my left hand and on pad it just doesn't always feel comfortable.
My Haute42 16 button is stupid portable. I'm also an MnK player for pretty much all games except fighting games, so leverless agrees with my brain more. Strive on controller is pretty solid for me, but the six button layout of SF6 has given me trouble, what little I've played of it on controller, so I went from a cheaper arcade stick to a cheaper leverless and am very happy I did
My biggest gripe with leverless is that since the movement is all buttons you need time to release the button for a direction which can make blocking certain things a lot harder compared to pad however this small gripe aside I definetly prefer hitbox. SOCD definetly enables a lot of things I feel pad does not enable.
Sticks and leverless controllers have swappable parts. Their large size makes them more comfortable imo. Pads have cheap plastic that make my hands sweat. 360s are easier to do on stick and pad than leverless. Older games without input shortcuts are easier on stick and pad than leverless. All of these reasons combined are why I mostly play stick and sometimes play leverless. The only time I’ll play on a cramped, sweaty pad is smash bros.
I play on all three depending on the game, sf6 is the best on an arcade stick, modern sf6 on a pad, t8 hitbox, the biggest problem of the hitbox is the speed of releasing the direction button, and sliding methods is a bed because you lose grip, the second one is buffering the moves is slow in neutral(test back+hk cammy cancel in supper in neutral), the third one is the playing right side, fourth, the speed of fatigue hits you faster on the hitbox, constant buffering in neutral slows down our execution, on an arcade stick you can buffer non-stop without getting tired by spinning super every second, fifth some trials are extremely hard on the hitbox compared to the arcade stick, I suggest doing all the trials on two sides, six back and forward hit neutral, which means that we lose block, this is mostly small problem when blocking the cross, e.t.c
As someone that plays on all three types of controllers, I find stick to be the most comfortable especially at home for both old and modern games. For travel pad is a no brainer. Modern games bridged the gap between all three anyways.
In SF6, I'll totally agree PAD might be the best simply due to able to counter DI the easiest and most comfortable way. Still leverless can do crazy thing like standing 720(JAK have shown in the stream) or moke's fast SA2 input (which involves all 4 direction buttons), not to mention for characters with need of the SF6 "down down input" a leverless is much easier to perform (basically JP/Chun-Li)
Broski: "Pads are possibly the lightest and most portable devices you can choose from"
Whips out my Haute42 Board Mini I've been hiding between my ass cheeks: "Heh!"
Sitbox 😂
Shitbox lol
Jokes aside, the fact that they’re almost flat makes them 10 times more portable than pads
I've been using one, it's extremely portable, more so than pads. I just put it in my front pocket.
Using a snack box micro and I can put it in my pocket easier than a pad since it's flat and small
Counterpoint: arcade sticks are fun to use.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
Wringing a stick around and pressing big buttons, cant touch dat using a non-phallos device
That is honestly the only reason I use a stick. It's more fun. Pretty sure my keyboard would be better
I play the game to have fun and use a stick over a pad despite having played enough SF2 on SNES that I'm perfectly fine on either one.
Totally with you there.
Where I'm from there was no arcade scene whatsoever, so my first introduction to decent arcade hardware was the Madcatz TE1 in 09. Any Fighting game before that was played on pad. Using the 360 D-Pad for SFIV was out of the question so I made the jump to stick. Never get tired of that Sanwa JLF clicking... Really fun to use and the durability of these things is something to behold.
Yeah I like stick, it's lots of fun.
Pad’s most gigantic pluses for the vast majority of people asking this question is that you already own one or more of them, you’ve been using one your entire life, and it is the most intuitive option for your brain. Very few people have booked a flight for their video game career.
Title should be : "Why i think carrying a pad might be the best"
Good luck repairing a pad or getting parts.
@@KillahManjaroa new one costs less that a few decent buttons and a gate tbf...
Cope
@@KillahManjaroit's like 20 bucks at max getting a replacement pad that lasts for years you don't need to repair it really
@@KillahManjaro just buy a new one
Broke: I play leverless because of the shrotcuts
Woke: I play leverless because I jumped on accident too much
SO REAL
Facts 🤣🤣
That's literally me.
Ive been jumping and missing my down diagonals on stick the last couple months and its driving me nuts lol. Probably gunna switch to leverless just for that
It’s not “accidental jumping” it’s “free TK specials”
To be honest pad just really hurts my hand for long sessions, if I could overcome that I'd play pad.
Yeah, isswear i get carpal tunnel from playing on pad.
Pick up a fightpad with a better dpad for fighting games. Solved that issue for me
This is why I picked up hitbox. Doing dps on a pad felt bad and my hands felt awful after play sessions. I feel like the difference in controllers isn't that significant though and it's great we see top players across all methods
I used to have this problem at the start, but your fingers adapt quickly. I've been playing on pad for a few months and I never get any sort of pain on my fingers.
If the issue is your hand and not fingers through... you could probably solve that with a better grip
Mf gripping that shit like his life depends on it. Let go man it should not be hurting you
Clearly the optimal control scheme is 2 sticks, with 1 mapped to LP/MP/HP on the up inputs and LK/MK/HK on the down
Wrong.
The optimal control is one stick and two buttons one for punches and one for kicks. To get harder strikes you whack the button harder.
Would explain more but have to go for orthopedic surgery...
@@shaunmcisaac782 just as god intended from the start
Ah yes, the hurtbox.
"If you think sticks look cool, by all means get a stick" - I'm so glad you mentioned this. If you're new and you're ambivalent to input methods, think about what's optimal and convenient. But if some controller out there lives rent free in your head you have permission to go buy it. It'll be fine. By the time the difference in optimization is a major factor in your performance you'll have a lot more experience and you'll know what you want, and by then you'll have definitely gotten your money's worth out of any controller you're infatuated with right now.
That's true, I remember that a few yrs ago I started playing fighting game just because I want to buy a arcade stick and look cool af.
Having used all 3 input methods I can say that the biggest advantage of leverless is how quickly and comfortably you can go from advancing forward to blocking. It's instant. The benefits of the SOCD tricks are pretty overstated IMO (for SF6 at least, Tekken SOCD KBD is amazing).
yeah I have to agree with you there. I also think the SOCD DP motion is no joke (press and hold forward, press and hold down, press and hold up, punch).
@@jasonh6312 Street fighter will seriously give you that? SOCD DP that I learned for Strive was hold f, press b and d, release b, attack. Was barely any faster than the manual input, and only sometimes at that, and I was far more likely to fuck it up, so I just stuck with manual. That method seems substantially better, and kinda messed up that it works lol
@@connorsutton8745 yessir, apparently they got rid of that shortcut in SFV but brought it back in SF6. Highly recommend trying it out
@@connorsutton8745 Every SF game after 3s gives you credit for the input by facerolling. DF DF P is a valid dragon punch from SF4 onwards.
It's an abomination
SF6 decided that was too hard and added modern
@@shaunmcisaac782 well fuck... Guess I've been playing on hard mode.
Stick just makes more intuitive sense for how my brain percieves the motion inputs as shapes rather than directions. Like, leverless is a sequence of key presses and releases, but stick is physically drawing a quarter circle or a Z. This also makes it easier to mirror the motions for P2 side as it's just a mirror of the same shape on stick but on leverless I'm using a different sequence of finger movements.
I'm a crusty old stick boomer and I switched to pad for SF6. Me personally, I would recommend a pad with several characteristics. A good d-pad, I recommend Saturn style pads. 6 face buttons and importantly (which is quite rare), 10 *unique* buttons. Most pads with 6 face buttons, the rightmost facebuttons (i.e HP/HK) are *duplicates* of LB/RB for a total of 8 buttons. Some pads however will allow you to incorporate L3/R3 giving you 10 unique buttons across the face and triggers/shoulders. This is important as you can now have 4 macros on the triggers/shoulders instead of 2. Very useful in SF6. For example you can now have PP, KK, DI and Parry on the triggers/shoulders. Or, if you were a dirty SOCD cheater, you could map directions to the spare shoulder buttons for SOCD shenanigans.
The Xbox/PS4 (not Switch) version of the Power A wired fightpad is an example of this which ime is a very cheap and durable pad. Also look at 8bit-do.
I don't that's heretical. Brian_F has been banging the pad=leverless>stick drum for over a year now. Never got a frenzy worked up
In case anyone has forgotten: Uma won Capcom Cup with an Arcade Stick. Stick players stay on top 😎
Qanba Titan was the model he used. Looks pretty slick.
Been a stick player forever. Too old to learn on anything else
Same thing for evo with Angrybird
Controller's really don't matter in sf6 , the game was designed with that in mind . Hitbox probably still has the most advantage but not by a lot
@@IytrrvItru exactly its ultra minimal advantage unless SOCD is not cleaned and the game turns L+R = auto block all cross ups etc.
I'm not about to disagree with most of what you've said, since I think most of what you've said is true, and I am a bit biased given I have been playing Stick for like 16 years, but I want to put forth the idea that there is an ergonomic/accessibility argument to be made for new players to learn arcade stick in certain situations.
To be clear, I've played on pad and leverless for a few years each as well and I can pretty definitively that Stick is the most comfortable for me and it isn't close.
Context: I have wrist pains due to a genetic quirk and long story short, I have to make adjustments to how I use a computer and mouse and a variety of other everyday things to do what I enjoy doing.
Pads require a harder grip for me and doing most of everything with my thumbs can be downright painful sometimes. Leverless have a similar issue where the way I feel I need to splay particularly my movement hand out like a piano player and make heavy use of my pinky and ring ringer to do more complex inputs is extremely uncomfortable after more than 45 minutes. Levered controllers let me make use of my shoulder and elbow for movement, with smaller movements being very linear motion of my fingers (I use two fingers to "plink" a forward dash on stick for example), it just causes a lot less issues for me personally.
Some of that could be that I've just been doing it much longer so the muscles I use for it are more developed and so it compensates for that, but I think making the blanket statement of "New players shouldn't learn stick unless they think it looks cool" kind of misses the point of different control styles all together. When it comes to getting new people in to the scene, I agree that telling everyone "just play stick" like we used to is dumb and bad for a variety of reasons, but the conversation shouldn't now be "just play leverless" or "just play pad" or "which of these is good and which is garbage", it should be "Try out the ones you can and pick the one that suits you the best." Variety in Comfort and Accessibility at the most basic entry point is how we get people to join the community,
I also play Arcadestick because of wrist issue, so I totally get where you are coming from.
I have an RSI in both of my wrists and playing leverless or pad for long periods of times makes my hands and wrists hurt like mad. Stick completely solves this problem AND also felt much more intuitive and fun for me.
Yah I’m a newish player in FG’s (started out with strive) and stick is basically the best option for me. My left thumb is a little bit weird so playing on pad for half an hour is a bit painful and after trying out a lever less layout on my keyboard, I realized I just wasn’t getting the hang of inputs. Playing on stick is basically the best way for me because it doesn’t fuck up my hands and it’s the most intuitive to me. On top of that when I play older GG’s that have weirder inputs, they’re actually easier on stick than they are on pad
Accessibility I think is the best argument. I play leverless for this exact reason as well because the way other controllers force a posture I don't like, and I use pad regularly for other games. Since I've played piano all my life, leverless is a very comfortable posture for me for my shoulders, wrists, and back, but I also require a relatively strict layout that means I can't use things like a snackbox because my hands are too close and I have to use a desk instead of having it on my lap, all things that cause tension to build up.
Saying any controller should be avoided or are cheating and should be banned, is essentially saying some people shouldn't be allowed or be discouraged from playing fighting games, and it's such a stupid argument because so much of hard execution is very strict manual timing stuff that is equally hard on all controllers. If leverless gives any advantages in modern games it's on learning entry level execution/bnbs, which should tell you who the people complaining about it are. And even beyond that, once you've got good comfortable execution, the actual hard parts of fighting games is like, playing neutral and defense and managing your mental stack.
yeah the discourse around these controllers has just gotten insane to me, everyone obsessed over the infinitesimal advantages that a leverless offers vs pad, or pad vs stick (which has shown to not even make an actual difference, stick players still winning EVO and CC for example), and there's no discussion over what actually feels good to use and doesn't kill your fingers or your hands.
If you told me in 2009 that stick would generally be considered the "worst" of the controllers and the argument would be between a glorified keyboard and a d-pad controller for what is best, I'd have laughed quite a bit at you. But here we are. You can pry my stick from my cold dead hands, though. It might not be optimal, but I like it.
I think that's the general consensus. Stick is better for two things:
If you're used to stick, and have grown up with it. Giving up 5+ years of muscle memory is always a big nono. If any stick player tried to switch to pad or leverless at this point, they'd perform worse in pretty much every major, and if you're playing in qualifiers, you don't have a year to learn a new control method, you have until your next qualifier tournament. This is the reason why many top players are still stick players, it's simply impossible to remain actively competitive while throwing away a huge amount of muscle memory.
The other is like you said, for fun factor. There's definitely something about playing on stick that just feels like you're gaming.
Leverless is objectively better than stick. I don't have enouhg experience with pad in FGs to argue one way or another, but even if there's no objective argument for picking up stick over pad/leverless if you're new, there's also rarely a good reason to switch from a control method you've used for years, maybe decades to learn leverless. The one reason I can think of is if you have wrist issues on stick.
What a surprise. Modern fighting games designed with pads in mind for consoles with simplified motion inputs are better on pads. Try kof xiii or 2002 and u will wish your stick back in half a minute.
@@mid9blissYup
That's because in 2009 the execution in games was still hard enough that you could see the flaws of pad. SF6 doesn't have mash specials for the sake of appealing to pad players.
If you like stick better that's fine, I just think a lot of people are tired of being dunked on for their choice of peripheral by oldheads who grew up in arcades, coping about how it's broken despite being literally as you said, a glorified keyboard. Those who grew up playing on keyboard have that established muscle memory that makes them lean towards choosing leverless, just as stick players have an inherent bias in what they find comfortable. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying that this dumb drama around it is just the whole "old good, new bad" that keeps popping up in the FGC about literally everything.
I've tried all 3 over the years and I'm currently favouring levellers, for no reason other than I'm old and the pad quickly causes me pain now. I built my own button box with those Brook boards, that's a fun project in itself. Recently grabbed a Haute42 T16 and I'm really enjoying it. I still like pad a lot. It's purely a comfort thing for me though.
After playing Leverless and trying stick, I have WAY more fun on stick, which for me makes me play better. I think pad and leverless are objectivley better in terms of persomance but I do think people underestimate the fun factor.
Yep, as a casual who is just looking to have fun, I tried pad, it didn't work for me, got an arcade stick and I'm having so much fun playing on it.
@@NikolayNikoloffStick is super fun, its really intuitive since fighting games were built for them in the first place.
I think there's an enjoyable, tactile element to playing on stick that the others lack. That being said I played on stick for the better part of a decade, so maybe I'm just justifying all the sunk cost of developing skills on stick. But I still have slowly been learning leverless for convenience, the snackbox micro is just easier at events.
and the objective advantage is TINY
I'm liking the video just for having "SOCDz nuts" in the video comment.
Shout out to the chatter saying something along the line of "Airport security SOCD cleaning your colon".
Nothing beats being able to have your trusty pad wherever you are. I play SF6 on both PC and PS5, theres no hassle to switch, I use dual sense on both.
If I'm going to a friend, traveling abroad, no matter what i know I'll have a dual sense handy. Plus, I use Dpad so there's no accidental input for me, never understood why people complain so much about it.
I recently switched from stick to pad just because I couldn't be bothered to plug back in my arcade stick after playing SF6's World Tour, and Grand Bruise in GBFVSR. It felt awkward to use in ranked at first, but I got used to it eventually.
Pad has one huge downside that single-handedly forces me to take long breaks from fighting games. Street Fighter destroys the rubber under d-pad from aggressively inputing dp motions and I'm kind of sick of replacing it every half a year. An entirely new controller may last up to a year, but still.
@@RobTcobra they all have rubber under the buttons
I don't even know how that's possible, I've never had a pad last less than 2 years and I play a lot of Steet Fighter.
HOW HARD ARE YOU SHORYUKENNING? IVE SHORYUKENED SINCE I WAS 3 AND NEVER BROKE A SINGLE CONTROLLER FROM IT.
@@RobTcobra
I even did it wrong until I was 18.
Me and brothers thought it was down->forward->down->forward punch for almost 2 decades. So we'd mash to get that shoryuken out. XD
The 8bitDo playstation form factor controller has an excellent d-pad. I've been using it on fighting games for 2+ years and it still feels the same.
I got an arcade stick because I couldn’t get on with d-pad and my dual sense analogues kept developing drift. Yeah, it’s heavy and unwieldy but it’s durable and - most importantly - really fun to use.
Two pads won't necessarily feel the same either. I don't know if pros bother doing repairs on their pads or just buy new ones; but I personally replace my dpad's membrane every once in a while when it starts wearing out.
Two pads can feel different due to different amounts of wear on the dpad membrane (or even having different types of membranes). I don't suppose that should matter much, tho.
This is the Fahrenheit vs Celsius of the fighting game world, I swear to god
Celsius better tho
@@josemel12 That's not the point! The point is that whenever anyone makes any arguments it's essentially just because they've used it since they were born!
"X feels more natural" to me kind of arguments. Use whatever works! It's ok!! I think the only big objective argument here is that most people will have a pad at home and not a dedicated stick device
@@mishatarkus Celsius ist better, because it is easier to convert to Kelvin
@@josemel12 Naw Fahrenheit is the best ofc REEEEE
@@mishatarkusCelsius is just better. Try and find someone who grew up with Celsius and wish they'd use Fahrenheit? It's going to be tough. But shake a tree and a lot of discontented Fahrenheit users will fall onto the ground.
The beauty of the controllers in the FGC is you choose yours, not anyone else's.
You made solid good points. I have a question though. I've noticed that ps5 L2 and R2 triggers are wayyyy too sensitive. How can I change that ?
Is switching the left and right analog sticks standard among other top players too?
I'm kinda surprised you didn't go over in-game experience, I think there are a lot of valid discussions to be had about ergonomics for pads, especially ones like the 8Bitdo Neogeo pads, that are designed specifically for fighting games, and the way modern games are being designed around the conceit that most players use a pad, it's definitely something worth talking about.
when i got into fighting games via DBFZ, i tried and absolutely despised a regular controller, and opted for a stick as soon as i got the money, but a lot of my friends who got into fighting games because of Strive and SF6 prefer/stick to pad. As I mentioned, there are controllers designs specifically for fighting games too, that modify designs to accommodate them - I can never go back to a regular controller's d-pad after the Neogeo pad, there are controllers that have microswitched d-pads which are way better, and some are even modular and let you swap the right analogue stick out for the extra 2 buttons that make a standard 3x3 layout (assuming you're not playing a game like Strive, or Modern in SF6, which are all but designed to work on pads).
Also, one of the two biggest reasons for sticks being preferred over pads (the other being the obvious motion inputs) is having a finger ready for every button, especially for combo strings, and these days that's not even a problem. Games like SF6 and Strive are designed so where combo strings are never so tight, compared to something like SF4 that almost demands an absurd level of dexterity and muscle memory to pull off something like a Focus Attack cancel off of a Shoryuken into an Ultra.
As somebody very much into controllers, it's a super interesting discussion, and I love exploring the more off-beat controllers that somehow still work fine for fighting games. At the end of the day, it comes down to comfort, preference, and experience, and since multiple top FGC players have won majors with controllers, dating all the way back to MVC2, controllers are not going to be overshadowed any time soon.
(though i will also say, as somebody that's staunchly all-button, while a joystick isn't as optimal, it does have a very distinct "feel" to it that can't be replicated, and imo is my preferred control scheme over all-button for non-fighting game 2D/arcade games)
the only problem with pads (or atleast the ds4 pad in specific) is how fast they break, I had 2 and they died very fast cause it would read downback as down or just back and I would get hit by a low and explode
I've been a secret pad believer since Luffy won EVO in SFIV with a PS1 pad. 😤
Not sure how often you read comments Broski but this is something that I have always wanting to express. All your points are good, I would love to actually use pad myself. I have used all controllers listed in here (also keyboard) and I stick with Leverless for ONLY one reason... Dashes. I'm a 38 year old player, I have used pads since I was 5 year old child, even having fighting games on pad, but I was never able to get use to the dashes. Maybe for you is something so easy and intuitive that you don't think about it anymore, but I played for years and years and I still hate the feeling of dashing on pad. Unfortunately all my favorite fighting games uses dashes and they are so crucial that I stick with Leverless at the moment. All the inconvenient that you mentioned are true, and I hate them, would love to use pad, but if in more than 30 years didn't learn to dash in pad, not sure If I have the patience for more years doing it, I prefer the struggle of everything else in Leverless against the pain of not having dashes.
for me it feels impossible to dash on stick. that why i pref pad lately
The only SOCD trick I do is holding down and tapping both forward + up twice = double QCF enabling you to do easy light/medium links into supers
Broski, I want to know your opinion on a specialised custom control key rebinding for a pad. I'm a pad enjoyer but D-Pad qcf/qcb inputs have always been inconsistent for me, I wanted the precision of leverless movement with the comfort and convenience of pad. So using Steam's rebinder, I mad R1 into D-Pad right, and L1 into D-Pad left. D-Pad down remains down. Flicking the right stick in any direction does DI and fllicking (or holding) the left stick in any direction is Parry. I experimented with X for Jump but in the end I put it back to D-Pad up. Some people think it sounds crazy but honestly its a surprisingly good set up! I recommend trying it for the content!
And to play old games such as MvC2 or third strike? What is the best in that case?
i didn't get grandfathered in to them but personally speaking switching to arcade stick improved my game considerably because i have stupid giant hands and i feel considerably more precise on them than i did with pads. as for why i haven't switched to hitbox beyond that? well uhhh money mainly lol. i do plan to eventually
also if we're going to talk about out of game advantages, playstations annoying habit of keeping pads synced and making you have to forcibly desync it through complex menuing, or avoid accidentally hitting the home button lest you ruin someone else's game... is a problem i'm glad i don't have to be part of anymore
When you do, you may want to look into a leverless with a bigger button layout using all 30mm buttons. I have an enormous friend (6'6 350lbs with proportional hands) who is trying out a "conventional" 24mm button leverless and is having some big problems with his hands cramping up cause the layout is too tight for him
@@connorsutton8745 i was considering one of the smaller ones to be honest (mainly so as i get used to it, taking both sticks to my locals wouldn't be a huge pain in the ass). i'll give it some thought, thanks. i'm about the same size as your mate but not nearly as heavy, so most standard arcade button sizes suit me well. that said. I am partial to a stick that i can easily fit on my lap
@@Hurtdeer hopefully it's not a problem for you. I'd encourage you to try to get your hands on a "normal" 24mm leverless for a few hours if possible to make sure it doesn't hurt your hands before you drop a wad of cash on something that won't work for you. All the best!
Can i really trust the opinion of a filthy analog stick enjoyer tho? Great vid, broski
Also in defense of arcade sticks: both the evo champ and capcom cup champ won it all on arcade stick! And they're fun as hell to use
Ah yes but the two time Capcom Cup champion won using a pad LOL
I think EndingWalker uses analog as well. There's something in their water over there
@@RobTcobra Broski himself has mentioned multiple times that he plays on the analog stick because that's just how he learned since it's most comfortable for him. It's not that serious homie. Just light good humored ribbing
@@manuelito1233 which is cool! Just saying stop bullying us arcade stick enjoyers 😔
@@RobTcobra alright, bud. Have a great day, homie.
Hey Broski. I've been playing SF on arcade sticks since 2011, but I don't get enough opportunities to go to majors or even locals. The few times I have managed, I agree with all the negative points given for them! It sucks ass! Even worse if your stick doesn't have a carrying handle (like my new one).
I really don't see myself learning any SOCD stuff in order to get a competitive edge. I'm nearing 31 years old, and I bet I could learn, but it's just a matter of willpower, I guess lol. Plus, I fairly recently bought a stick, like just before sf6's release...
But damn, do those pads with 6 face buttons look tempting sometimes. My biggest mental hangup with pad is not having my buttons lined up in order of strength. And Modern controls break my brain. Your points outside the game for pad might just convince me to get one though... Good video, man.
One thing that pad is better for is doing z inputs and super inputs from crouch normals. I was using the Hori Fight Commander because the PS5 controller's dpad was a no go. Other than that, everything has been easier for me since switching from pad to leverless. That said, I love to hear your logic. You are way better and know much more than me, so I am sure I will learn something.
You mean better vs arcade stick? Because on leverless, if you're crouching, you just double tap forward and you get the dp motion and for super, it's also very easy because you double tap forward+up (tap and hold on the last press) and you get the double qcf for supers
Fight Sticks are my preferred input method just due to the ergonomics of using it. Pad makes my hands hurt like hell after a play session and I've never had that issue during a whole year of playing Stick versus a decade of playing pad and feeling pain every session
As someone who is both prone to RSI and has had several injuries to my wrists and hands hitbox has been a life saver. No way I could play as much as I do on stick or pad.
Also - regarding repair a lot of the smaller form factor hitboxes - all the stuff based on flatbox - are just using keyboard switches. You could easily carry extra - I would if I was a tournament player. They're like less than 10 dollars for 10.
The cool thing about leverless is that most of them use hotswap mechanical switches. Even the razer kitsune supports 3rd party switches. Just keep a handful of those whenever you go to a venue. Also, I think the thinness of a leverless shouldn't be underestimated. They're as thin as most tablets, so you can cram them easily in the laptop compartment of most book bags. With a pad, you'd need a special carrying case or you risk damaging the sticks.
I play analog on pad but I use d pad for certain inputs like super and down down anti airs. I can’t play on d pad only cause it hurts my fingers.
On the issue of accessibility of specialist controls:
I live in Brazil, and I started playing Street Fighter 6 when it was released. As I played in arcades as a child, I decided to buy an arcade stick. But I wanted the best parts for my contoller, so I started buying them online and they all had to be imported (the ones I found in Brazil were extremely more expensive and there was no way to be sure they were original pieces).
Well, in the end, by the time all the parts arrived and I had my arcade stick controller ready, I had already been playing with a PS4 controller for months and was already so used to it that it was no longer worth switching to the arcade stick. But at least the arcade stick it looks really nice and will make a nice piece of decoration.
Stick is best and always will be. You get the clickety-clack of buttons and the wiggetty-wag of the stick. I'll always have more fun than you are hitting your mushy buttons. Ergo, I win. 😅
I should also say. Arcade stick won the last EVO, CPT and EVO Japan. (Just saw that you called them useless and I got salty).
They're all solid. Its whatever you're comfortable with. (I played stick on UMVC3 but pad for SF).
Only downside with stick though is that it's so fuggin loud and obvious when you're buffering on stick.That's why some players have hilariously covered their sticks during tournament's
@@UhDewSea Your opinion is a serious one. Mine isn't, lol
I prefer stick because of the tactile nature of it.
@@duxnihilo I get that. Sometimes it's just nice to slap buttons lol
@@UhDewSea When I first got my stick I was like a toddler. Slapping them even before plugging it in.
Newer Leverless designs such as the ABMX from JasensCustoms have drop in microswitches, so if your button isnt functioning it is very easy to swap that microswitch and be back in the action within minutes.
That’s a great feature as long as you didn’t forget to bring the replacement switches. (I will 100% forget them the one time I need them.)
holy shit!! i seriously had no clue you played pad broski
I use to play on pad 2010s (playing SF4) but switched to stick to mainly play KOF XIV and XV now SF6. also grew up playing on arcades.
have you customized your controller or do you just have a default dualsense?
the most important factor which kinda seems ignored here is comfortability? box controllers in melee became popular because they are purported as much more comfortable for many players compared to the gcc. sticks and leverless controllers have very similar layouts, making switching between them trivial if necessary, whereas pad has a completely different system that may be really uncomfortable for players. a lot of emphasis is placed on travel, even though many players will rarely or never go to tournaments, but everybody needs a comfortable controller layout
the arguments here are good, but a lot is missing in terms of the larger conversation
The only reason you should choose arcade stick is either if you're used to it or if you just prefer how it feels. I've always played with controllers and recently picked up a stick and it does feel massively different than a controller. Sure it may not be easier but some people might just prefer how nice it feels etc.
My back always appreciates playing with DS.
You can lie down, stand up. sit down or enter quasimodo mode while playing.
Great vid!
I love the music you use in your video intro/outros. idk if anyone else has mentioned it. Is it from a game or did you make it yourself?
I'll be honest as someone who only got into fighting games with SF6 I kinda regret not giving Pad a fair shake. I started out on keyboard which made the transition to leverless fairly natural but I am essentially learning both a new genre and a new controller whereas if I just went with Pad I would be able to use a control set that I have more or less decades of experience with. And the more I play the game the more I think having a stick available for certain inputs would be really nice.
Well, the SOCD inputs with three directions are still quite useful. Brian’s video that you mentioned goes into this specifically. Also, my Hypercube by TSRACT is probably the lightest controller I’ve ever held.
i started with pad then switched to stick, and from an ergonomic stand point, it was a blessing. took a few weeks to get used to and it was great, overall improved my inputs and made playing my game at the time (3rd strike) much easier
now it broke and ive been playing 6 with pad and honestly, its been pretty good. the dpad feels better in this game for some reason, maybe because its less strict. still miss stick tho
Why not repair the stick? They’re super easy to work on
@@Blustride i bought the parts and the cables, but somethngs missing. the thing that broke is the joystick, couldnt figure out the cables. im trying to figure it out but its kinda frustrating and where i live they dont sell anything, i have to import and it takes like 2 weeks
The part about things breaking at an event is really important imo. It's happened to me a couple times; once being my very first EVO in 2014 during pools. I was using arcade stick and was able to borrow someones, then i had to borrow a third person's because i had to eventually play the person i borrowed from first, lol. Back then, arcade sticks were the norm. Nowadays i would have trouble borrowing one since leverless and pad took over. Same reason why i avoid getting used to some 13 or 16 button leverless. If that thing has issues and i have some overly unique layout, then im gonna play poorly if i have to borrow someone's standard build. At home, none of this matters. But if you're paying good money to travel to events even as a casual like me, then it's worth considering. A stock 1st party Pad is undoubtedly advantaged here and multiple other areas, despite it being the option i choose the least.
I made an in depth tutorial covering SOCD Dash, SRK, crosscuts, sonic booms for pad vs Hitbox. Glad to see this tech getting pushed out as well as the swapped analog portion that makes it extremely viable.
19:00 wouldn't the event itself have a few to lend? Especially if the tournament is on PS5
I Wonder if that Left / right analog swap works on Xbox series X / S
I always had trouble with inputing directions and motions (especially fast) with a dpad. Maybe my thumbs are not made to have the required articulation, i don't know. Switching to leverless has basically eliminated that problem for me. After a short (an hour or two) adjustment, i input directions on leverless both faster and more consistent than i ever did with a dpad even with over 100 hours of practice. This alone makes leverless for me the superior controller.
With the multiple direction socd;
You could just as easily hold down back (1 on numpad notation) with the dpad and right (6) on the analog.
Does anyone have any recommendations for Xbox game pads because I only see a few arcade sticks, I’ve been searching for a game pad but only seen them for PS and PC.
8bitdo m30 !!!!! i order me 3 of these bad boys they're really good for tekken
I think the form factor argument can go a few directions. For casuals/hardcore audience (but non pro), smaller leverless's like Snackbox, Haute42 pads, etc, are honestly more portable than controllers because of their form factor. Being flat means it fits comfortably into pockets and flat into backpacks with other stuff in it. It just depends on how you're choosing to carry it and where. I agree though that for competitors, where you really do want one of the higher quality leverless controllers, like a Kitsune (the smallest one I can think of with this quality), or even bigger ones like Hitbox, or a Vitrix, then pads are definitely way easier to handle.
I love pad that hori one is really good I use the 8 bit doo six button pad
It's okay to just say that pad is very convenient, widely accessible, and is just as competitively viable as any other controller type. The only downside is their durability and pad break-in period and shorter lifespan than arcade buttons (especially mechanical buttons) and microswitches on a lever. Stick and leverless is more of an investment up front (usually), but will have better durability. No wrong answers. It's really that simple in my opinion. One thing i will say is that leverless and stick players out of curiosity or necessity usually get comfortable replacing and tinkering with parts. It's not a big ask for long-time stick players to swap or replace components, for example. Very normal to always carry extra buttons to a tournament, too. Just something to think about. Love from a boomer stick player who's only real concern is that no one gets FOMO due to their controller of choice. Upsides and downsides to EVERY controller type.
11:09 Using this method of holding three directionals is essential for DP into lvl3 on leverless imo (hold fwd, pres n hold down for diagonal input, press back for down input, release down and back, press punch for dp, repeat for super cancel).
Depends on the pad. I've gotten used to playing pad over the last few years, and I have major issues with the dpad on PS controllers.
i think comfort and personal preference are the #1 reason to use any input method, but I disagree with you on what you said about stick being "useless"
i think it heavily comes down to comfort, preference, and what you find intuitive. for me, when i was starting out, i was very bad at doing motion inputs, and clean inputs in general on the D-pad on my controller, I found myself much more consistent doing inputs on the analog stick because i could "feel" them out. For that reason I got a stick, and it instantly improved my play significantly. The feedback of using a stick genuinely helps my play and do inputs.
for a similar reason, I'm strongly encouraging my buddy who's trying to learn FGs to get a hitbox, because he likes playing rivals on aether on KB more than pad.
I gave up on pad and moved onto keyboard and then to leverless because pad just kept hurting my thumb after too long and I didn't feel precise. Also I use a Haute42 g16 weight of the controller is a complete non-issue.
I haven't used a pad for a fighting game in months and and just thinking about it again makes my thumb hurt. I'm never going back as long as I can help it.
After using a controller for a long time, the only reason I ever wanted a stick or leverless (recently grabbed a haute M16 I think it's called) is because it looked fun af.
The buttons looked clicky clacky like my keyboard, and I like
While there are plenty of heavy ones, I just weighed mine on a food scale and my leverless is 20g lighter than a DS5. (It's a jfedor style flatbox.) It's one circuit board, 12 keyswitches, and 3d printed plastic. (No wires to freak out TSA.)
"I can get a replacement at Target" is a really solid argument, though.
I have old man hands, so that's a no go for pad in FGs. That, and I grew up in the arcades and owning sticks too. Switching to leverless was so much better for me.
What about using four fingers for movement instead of just a thumb? It makes certain things more consistent, like Cammy's instant divekick.
First the set vs Mena, now pad’s strongest defender. Broski stocks are up
I honestly would play pad, since it fits right in the hands and is a great option. But, I can't press two face buttons at the same time with pad. If someone have some tips, I would appreciate
pads life expectency is bad though, i had a sanwa stick that i used for literally 8 years, and i had to replace the switches on the joystick once(a 10 dollar part that takes a minute to fix).
My fighting game friend goes through a pad every 6 months.
I play leverless now, and i expect my current controller to last for 5+ years.
Lol, in the middle of the video I thought it was April fool
there's like an inconsistency between the face buttons and the triggers though, i hate it, it makes timing awkward for me since i'm a arcade stick user.
I respect Broski immensely but most of his videos have a very pro-player slant to them. A huge portion of the reason he gives for pad being better is that it travels better, is easier to carry, is replaceable when you are travelling, etc. And here's the thing. I'd guess probably less than 5% of SF6 players ever go to an in-person event AT ALL, and less than 1% are ever going to TRAVEL to an event.
Iono man I just got a snackbox and that thing fits in my back pocket. On flights it fits in a briefcase pouch
I use an xbox controller because I'm used to it for playing for over 15 years now. I also have a custom xbox controller though the paint is messed up now so i have to get it replaced soon
I play on all-button controller but I’ll give another benefit of pad that you didn’t mention.
When playing at a tournament, there is no guarantee that you will have access to a comfortable chair and table to rest your stick or hit box on. I personally do not like resting my hit box/all button on my lap and prefer a nice elbow height table. Holding a pad in your hand solves this issue.
Thanks for the video!
one huge advantage for gamepads that I can think of: they are silent. that matters both in-game and outside of it (opponents can't listen to your button presses or your significant other not getting annoyed by your mashing).
on the flipside, leverless wear and tear is really low and they can be super resilient if you ask me. I know this is entirely anecdotal, but until now I changed one Sanwa button on my leverless built in 2010 (!), it costed me like 15 euros (because I couldn't order just 1 button, I had to order 5). friends who play on pad had been constantly replacing them throughout the years.
You can get silent buttons for leverless. They're not actually silent usually, but in a tournament environment you won't be able hear it.
@@roboticChristmassElf yeah, I know. I've recently switched to a Haute42 with low profile silent buttons and they're awesome.. but for virtually all gamepads out there that comes as a default.
You didn't talk about some disadvantages of pads. Leverless and sticks last WAY more hours than pads. I've gone through so many pads in my life from fighting games. I bought one leverless years ago and never had to replace it.
The point I thought you were gonna bring up that you didn't was that leverless is less intuitive to use. I wouldn't reccommend playing on leverless if you have not played on pad or stick before.
Pad can actually do the 3 directional inputs at once, holding left with one and and down-right with the other will achieve the same result as hitbox. Standard SOCD dp uses 3 inputs, holding left+down+right to get a clean down input, imo not very niche at least on leverless.
I like a square gate stick over pad for:
Spinning pile drivers
Claw/Guile Ultras in SFIV
Kof Supers - especially tiger-knee supers like Leona V-Slasher.
SNK hops
I'm sure leverless is better, but it just makes every input feel like entering a cheat code.
I need pad for SF6, tho - i gotta have DI/DP on shoulders.
I have yet to watch the video but ill come back to this comment once I have. I honestly think that its VERY dependant on what type of fighting game you are playing and what characters you tend to play. I tend to play a lot of scrambly 3/4 button anime games, rekka characters and characters that dont have DPs, so I like pad for its symmetry (dont have to worry about p1/p2 side differences) and intuitive binds for macros (triggers for dash / throw / burst etc). I dont actually get all that much out of playing on leverless even though I own all 3 controller types. You really can make a case for pad vs leverless imo, not so much stick unless you play tekken.
Sidenote, my thumbs start hurting if I block too long :^)
edit: bit into the video and I will say one negative about pads is pads tend to massively degrade in quality after a while, and you cant really repair them. Usually if something starts to wear out you just have to buy a new one. This is less of a problem with high quality controllers, but they tend to be expensive enough that you're basically just shuffling around cost of replacement and how long its going to last. Otherwise I mostly agree, pad is just a better QOL choice.
A Haute 42 g16 is 360g / 16mm in height.
It's easier to drop and forget in my backpack than my PS5 controller.
It's a almost the same footprint but a lot flatter and rectangular.
It's also cheap, in a tournament you could easily carry two in your backpack without sweating.
11:10 Pressing 3 directions on a leverless isn't just for niche situations. Getting down+forward+up for fireball or forward+down+up for DP are consistent and widely useful because of the speed of not having to release anything.
Also a snackbox micro or something is wider than a controller, yeah, but it's also way flatter.
I use duel sense (ps5 controller) and i love it. i mapped the touch pad to di and I haven't looked backed . The dpad has pretty glairing issues tho, with input bleeding on the cardinal directions. (unintentional jumps) and the triggers are very spongy and activate at diff points depending where you place your finger. i just ordered a battle beaver with modded buttons i hope it solves my issues.
I always used pad but started getting trigger thumb so I switched to leverless. I can now do most things easier with it besides DP. And no more thumb issues.
Same here. Try thos DP shortcut pres down and left or right at the same time twice (depending which way you facing) and then punch.
Watch brianf video on his leverless journey with ed.
To give a bad summary - to dp
Hold forward
Then press down+up+punch for a quick dp on leverless
For me personally I find the arcade stick the most comfortable to play for long sessions out of the three input methods, and I didn't grow up in arcade or anything. I can't get used to leverless with my left hand and on pad it just doesn't always feel comfortable.
My Haute42 16 button is stupid portable. I'm also an MnK player for pretty much all games except fighting games, so leverless agrees with my brain more. Strive on controller is pretty solid for me, but the six button layout of SF6 has given me trouble, what little I've played of it on controller, so I went from a cheaper arcade stick to a cheaper leverless and am very happy I did
My biggest gripe with leverless is that since the movement is all buttons you need time to release the button for a direction which can make blocking certain things a lot harder compared to pad
however this small gripe aside I definetly prefer hitbox. SOCD definetly enables a lot of things I feel pad does not enable.
Sticks and leverless controllers have swappable parts. Their large size makes them more comfortable imo. Pads have cheap plastic that make my hands sweat. 360s are easier to do on stick and pad than leverless. Older games without input shortcuts are easier on stick and pad than leverless.
All of these reasons combined are why I mostly play stick and sometimes play leverless. The only time I’ll play on a cramped, sweaty pad is smash bros.
Haven't watched the whole video yet but like all the pros use pad. Love your vids. Keep up the good work
No they don't, tons use arcade sticks.
Grandfathered in to Arcade stick sounds so offensive lmfao
I play on all three depending on the game, sf6 is the best on an arcade stick, modern sf6 on a pad, t8 hitbox, the biggest problem of the hitbox is the speed of releasing the direction button, and sliding methods is a bed because you lose grip, the second one is buffering the moves is slow in neutral(test back+hk cammy cancel in supper in neutral), the third one is the playing right side, fourth, the speed of fatigue hits you faster on the hitbox, constant buffering in neutral slows down our execution, on an arcade stick you can buffer non-stop without getting tired by spinning super every second, fifth some trials are extremely hard on the hitbox compared to the arcade stick, I suggest doing all the trials on two sides, six back and forward hit neutral, which means that we lose block, this is mostly small problem when blocking the cross, e.t.c
As someone that plays on all three types of controllers, I find stick to be the most comfortable especially at home for both old and modern games. For travel pad is a no brainer. Modern games bridged the gap between all three anyways.
What kind of controller do you play on
In SF6, I'll totally agree PAD might be the best simply due to able to counter DI the easiest and most comfortable way. Still leverless can do crazy thing like standing 720(JAK have shown in the stream) or moke's fast SA2 input (which involves all 4 direction buttons), not to mention for characters with need of the SF6 "down down input" a leverless is much easier to perform (basically JP/Chun-Li)