They Told Us, Immigrants Can't Go to Gymnasium 😱🇩🇪How Our American Kids Got into a German Gymnasium
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Here's our story of how we got two of our American children into a German gymnasium. As you can tell from the title of our video - it was not easy! It was quite the challenge, especially because we had to figure out the whole process with our basic German skills just months after moving to Germany in February of 2021. There's a lot of debate in Germany on the secondary school system as it is and how there's a lot of pressure on students in fourth grade to choose which kind of school they will attend - Gymnasium, Realschule, or Mittleschule (Hauptschule). German friends - let us know your experience and what you think of the system in the comments!
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//CHAPTERS//
0:00 - Autumn scenes from the river in our town
00:58 - Intro - the German secondary school system
5:17 - How Grundschule began when we arrived
8:07 - Their teachers began to say they needed to go to Gymnasium
9:35 - We visited our first Gymnasium, and it didn't go well!
15:48 - We began talking to other Gymnasiums
18:23 - We created a backup plan with other Gymnasiums & Realschules but were still worried
Grayson has a very good pronunciation 😍 he sounds zero like an American. The r sound is so un-American when he speaks German.
Yeah we are amazed with his pronunciation!
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife what will help you is to realize that each language has different vowels and consonants, and the vowels that look and sound so similar to English are actually totally different.
An o or u in German has nothing to do with its English counterparts.
Children have it easier here, they don't have a plethora of memories to anchor them; they approach languages like something totally new.
BTW, if you learn a language before your 13/14th, it can become as good as if you're native in it. He seems on that track
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife it's funny because Grayson sounds 'hochdeutsch' whereas Kevin sometimes rolls the 'r' like the Bavarians do.
@@der.Schtefan you are right. That's why it's so sad that my daughter ( who lives in Norway) hasn't taught her kids any German. Now it will become a foreign language to them although their mother is German. And my Norwegian is very poor because learning a new language at almost 70 isn't as easy as at a young age.I'm so glad that my grandkids are now learning English at school so I can communicate better with them.
Go Grayson!
You are in Bavaria. 😂
Germany is a challenge in itself.
Bavaria is exponentially more challenging.
Kevin being a professor from a western country certainly helped.
I guess we are gluttons for punishment!
@@kevinmcfall5285 You McFalls are approaching the hilarious realities of living in Germany with such a beautiful attitude and sense of humour that I doubt that the bureaucratic system will ever get the better of you.
Also, it will get easier as your language skills improve and as you are learning to understand how we Krauts tick. 🤩
It's so lovely to see that you are determined to focus on the positive aspects of our culture.
You guys rock. ♥️
@@kerstinklenovsky239 thank you so much for your kind words! ❤️
@@kerstinklenovsky239 so true...
I went to Realschule. At the time, the teachers would give a recommendation, but it was really up to the parents to pick the right school. My parents were quite cautious. My father was a teacher in Realschule and saw many students that had not succeeded at a Gymnasium, repeated a class, and then came to a Realschule and often really struggled to get back on track after that experience. He also had his own struggles attending a Gymnasium and I think he didn't want that for his kids.
I attended Realschule till 10th grade. I had a lot of free time to teach myself coding, read, learn music, and experiment by myself. I always was a more academic minded person so that is what I used my additional free time for. Interestingly, programming wasn't even taught at school at the time. So I think I actually spent some of my time better than what I would have done at school.
After 10th grade I went to an Aufbaugymnasium. That is a school that is specifically for students that want to continue after finishing Hauptschule or Realschule, so it makes it a little easier to catch up. Academically things actually became easier for me there. The material was more interesting, there was more choice what to do, and the other students also actually wanted learn making for a much better learning environment. I ended with the second best GPA in my year, went on to get a PhD in Physics and today I am a professor at a US R1 University. I am not sure if attending Gymnasium would have prepared me better.
There is luckily a lot of mobility between the school tiers in Germany, so the choice of schools after grade 4 is less of a life decision then it may seem. I think it is more important to watch out that kids don't end up being continuously overwhelmed, keep failing, develop anxieties around school and exams, and start feeling that they generally can't do the things that are asked of them. That can turn them against learning and society in general.
Very impressive story and achievement! Hat off 💐🎩💐
Thanks for your story. I have a friend who has a similar CV. He went from Realschule to Gymnasium (via Aufbaugymnasium) and is now working as a researcher at the Max-Planck-Institut für Physik in Munich. Unfortunately, a lot of parents push their children to schools which might overwhelm them. And I also see the danger in that.
Thank you so much for sharing in detail your history.
As a teacher at a gymnasium myself I can only apologize for what happened to your family. The principal of the first gymnasium just offended you by talking only German. As a person with an academic background, he should be able to help you through this difficulty process by speaking English. At our gymnasium in northern gymnasium, we have a lot of students who starts with a big lack in German. They are coming from all over the world, they are refugees, children of expats, Germans, who grew up in a foreign country … But with a lot of effort and encourage by other students and their teachers most of them get the Abitur.
So, at the end - it is not the German, but the Bavarian school system you have to deal with.
Stimme bei jedem Wort zu !
Bavaria 🙄
Ihr lieben McFall's 😍 - es ist einfach großartig; wie Ihr einen Weg gebahnt habt für die Zukunft Eurer Jungs! 😍
Und stärker als die Beschämung durch diesen " Rektor der Prinzipien " 🙄wart.
So tolle Menschen kommen zu uns aus Amerika- und dieser Rektor verkauft Euch: " So läuft das in Deutschland im Gymnasium! " 🙄
Ich empfinde als Deutsche Fremdscham für solch' ein unmögliches; ausladendes Verhalten.
😖😌
Mögen Euch immer die guten insider und Freunde zur Seite stehen. Mit gutem; weisen Rat; allen wichtigen Hintergrund-Erklärungen und mit echter Freundschaft. 🤗
Gabriel und Grayson- Ihr macht das einfach:
g r o ß a r t i g!! Meinen riesigen Respekt! Liebe Grüße 🙋♀️
Aus genau diesem Grund steht Bayern im Ländervergleich immer(!) auf dem 1. Platz , während sich die Norddeutschen Schulen stets ganz unten wiederfinden.
I don't think that talking to them in German was indented as offending them. It is the language they must understand if they want to read the school's letters, it is the language the child has to understand, since ALL lessons will be in German. In German ONLY. I would probably have spoken English with the parents, but I do not think at all that the pricipal was intentional offending them but to make them realize the difficulty.
I am a Lehramtsstudentin from Bavaria and currently in a Praktikum at a Bavarian Gymnasium and all of the classes I sit in they have AT LEAST one student that doesn't speak ANY german. And everyone did their best to make it easy for them!
@@tokarukoro8196 That is not true. I study to become a teacher and we learn that it is mandatory to give the students reasonable accomodations. And if that means explaining some things in English then you as a teacher have to do it... And letters for parents have been bilingual/in german or english even when I was back in school...
In my opinion who ever lives in Germany should definitely learn German and you are doing that. It's impressive how good your German already is after being here for only a few months. Grayson even talks like a German with no accent at all. I am glad that everything finally worked out for your kids. For a lot of German kids it's also not easy to find out which school type they should chose after elementary school.
Thank you, Indira. 🤗❤️ Yeah it does make us feel better that at some level, most German kids also struggle with knowing which school to attend for 5th grade and beyond.
Fun fact: In Berlin and Brandenburg Grundschule is from class 1-6. You only go to Haupschule/Realschul/Gymnasium/Gesamtschule in class 7. And I think it is much better for the children to decide when they are 12y old and not already when they are 10y old.
Ich finde das auch viel besser um ehrlich zu sein . Schade dass das nicht deutschlandweit so ist .
The question, when to sort children apart, is in discussion for more than 50 years. I doubt, there will be a common answer soon.
The concept of "Gesamtschule" or (in Hamburg) "Stadtteilschule" tries to delay this decision, until the children are older.
das entscheiden nicht die kinder. die grundschulleherinnen haben sich nach 4 jahren ein bild gemacht. auch in berlin kann man auf ein grundständiges gymnasium. man sieht genau ,nach vier jahren grundschule, ob ein kind am gymnasium falsch untergebracht wäre.
Soooo much better
In Rheinland-Pfalz the school years 5 and 6 are called "Orientierungsstufe". Officially they are supposed to help you see if you are on the right school or if you should change schools. It's supposed to be easier to change during our after that period.
Well, as you might notice from my wording. This is only the nice theory.
In reality, the German system only offers a way down. If you are really bad, you are sent to a lower school. If you are really good, you are praised and nothing more happens.
Realschule is always a good decision when you are not sure if Gymnasium might be too hard. I sent my daughter to Realschule. She was, and still is😉, very smart. But at the age of 10 she was a bit shy and I thought attending the Gymnasium would be to much for her. And that was the best decision. She had a great time in Realschule, with good grades, but without the Stress and time to be a Kid. After her 10th grade she choose to make her Abitur. So she switched to a Gymnasium. And because she was 16 by then, she knew more what kind of Gymnasium she would like to go. She choose a school with BWL (Economics) as a major subjekt and was really happy with that. She got a really good Abitur and is now at university to study BWL.
Sometimes you need to relax a little, there are so many ways to get to your goal.
Sorry for my english, I find it easier to speak than to write...
Your English is great! Yes, it is a difficult decison to make at 10 years old...
@@kevinmcfall5285 My 3 Boys were recommended for Gymnasium after grade 4 and i think that is too early for such a decision. So we decided to wait 2 more years and they went after grade 6 and made it, others did not !! you can not learn 8 years in a row all day long, so An Ho is right ! Relax, you have options.
thanks for sharing, i wanted my kids to start out in Realschule but i wasn't sure if Gymnasium would be an option for them later when they got older. This answered that for me.
@@kevinmcfall5285 That is a clear case of a German, speaking English on a good conversational level - and still excusing for the "poor English". You will have met a lot of us by now and meet many more. Some are really terrible, but most are quite decent - and insecure as they have no real test for their skills.
I lost my shyness when a friend of mine came home from Australia and brought herself a BF as a "souvenir" *I might be very ungermanlike joking about the souvenir part
We talked and I was rather reluctant, until her BF said he marvels at how easily we Germans switch between German and English. I was taken aback for a moment - and then, thinking about it, I thought, hey, he is right! We DO change quite easily. So I lost all insecurity (not good either) - and have not looked back.
Yeah, I make mistakes. But by the looks of it on the internet - so do Americans and people from the UK. I am now at peace with my English. Though I wish my accent wasn't quite that horrible when speaking.
Bavaria is notorious throughout Germany for its strict (and often backwards) rules regarding selecting and schooling children at Gymnasium. Generally, other States are much more lenient in making exceptions and generally being more generous in this regard.
That’s good to know. I hope it’s easier for immigrants in other German states!
Germany’s school system is really tough and often unfair for immigrants, especially in Bavaria. But more than that the social status of the parents is hugely important. Coming from a western country and Kevin being a a professor was probably the only reason you even had a chance to talk to the principle. From his point of view he was already making an exception just talking to you. When it comes to gymnasiums, there is Germany and there is Bavaria. It speaks volumes that you eventually got your kids into a gymnasium, both regarding the intelligence of your sons and your fighting spirit. Well done!
Thanks, Christian, it was an uphill climb! Yeah you’re totally right that we have privilege right away since we come from a Western country and Kevin was a professor. It’s upsetting and unfair that privilege determines so much for so many all over the world and always has. We all need to change that!!
I would argue that the Bavarian school system is better than the more inclusive school systems in other parts of Germany. You could argue that e.g. Bremen, Berlin or NRW are superior because more students with a "migrant background" manage to get an Abitur over there. But this statistics came at a cost: the academic standards are much higher in Bavaria - and other schools (Realschule, Hauptschule) have a better reputation in Bavaria than elsewhere. I met a lot of University students who did their Abitur in Bremen or NRW and who were sent to private schools because their parents didn't trust their public schools. In Bavaria that's not so much the case. My father was a postman and my mother an office worker. Nobody in my family (incl.cousins) has Abitur and I don't have a "migration background". Nevertheless the Bavarian school system gave me the opportunity to work my way up the system, get an Abitur (1,7) and it prepared me for University. And at University I realized that students with richer and more educated parents from other parts of Germany were often less educated than myself. That gave me a confidence boost, since it can be quite challenging to be the first person in your family to try to get a University education. Hence, I'm very grateful for the public education I've received in Bavaria.
@@MrRagnar123456 how is it better if you get sorted out before you even have the chance just because of the status of your parents? i was sorted out because i had a single mom and was being difficult at the age of 7-8 .. its better but it comes at a cost haha
All of my relatives - including my sister and cousins were "sorted out" in Bavaria (all of them "ethnic" Bavarians). None of them had any issues with it. And all of them did very well later in life thanks to vocational training. If they had wanted to make the Abitur and go to university later, there would have been ways to do so - even here in Bavaria. I understand that you had it more difficult with a single parent, but I don`t see how public education can remove social factors completey. I came from a low-earning, non-academic family and got a great education solely because my grades were good. I don`t think I would have gotten anything like that in the US. That sounds selfish and maybe it is, but I don`t regard the school systems in other German states as superior - on the contrary. If you reduce education to the piece of paper you receive at the end of your school time, and the number of students who receive one of those papers, Bremen and NRW are doing fine.
Those who criticize the Bavarian school system the loudest are often academics with no immigrant background who find it difficult to understand that their son/daughter is not allowed to go to the Gymnasium in Bavaria, because of his or her grades. And that is something which is often missing in the debate. In Bavaria (at least when I went to school there, but things might have changed) having wealthy and well educated parents doesn`t mean that you won`t be sorted out by the school system.
And when I went to the Gymnasium (90s/00s), many of my fellow students were found to be not good enough in the 5th or 6th grade and sent back to Haupt- or Realschule. The selection didn`t stop after 4th grade.
Pros: my parents didn`t have to pay anything for my (good) school and later university education
Con: there was constant pressure to succeed from 4th grad till my university diploma (which I found rather motivational), less students receive Abitur
@@MrRagnar123456 "In Bavaria (at least when I went to school there, but things might have changed) having wealthy and well educated parents doesn`t mean that you won`t be sorted out by the school system." -
This is exactly what it meant for me. some kids with worse grades but 2 parents moved on.. those are the types that stay in university for 10 years and get terrified of the world. im happy i saw all the routes. i went from hauptschule with no diploma to finishing a Kochausbildung and going back to school to do abitur at 29.. and i even studied for a year. the thing is .. i could have done abitur when i was a kid. my situation determinded the chance. the teacher saw my mom struggling and that was the end of that story. And today i cant shake the feeling of "no employee wants me" thats why i left the country. at least i was seen as a smart kid from the hauptschülers
Many German parents go through exactly the same story as you, so don't feel singled out. You are AMAZING parents engaged in your children's life and education with a lot of energy and passion. You're amazing. And what you went through is normal.
It is so great that you expose your children to different cultures early on. This is what makes Europe so great, and this is what makes you so great!
I fully agree !
Thanks for your kind words and support!
... the German System . . . 🙄🤣😂 ... what can we say?! No always easy, but i 💯% agree, the McFall's dealing with it all pretty well 👍🏻👏🏻😉 Wonder who that "der.Schtefan" is? 🤔🧐 a teacher, a father from a foreign country living in Bavaria, "just" a CZcams fan?
I was supposed to go to one school that suddenly was closed not even two months before I entered 5th grade so my parents had to quickly find a new place for me to go. It's hard for German parents too especially if they work full time.
Ich kann auch nicht nach Amerika ohne Englisch Kenntnisse und sofort anfangen zu arbeiten! Was für ein Vergleich 🤔
Früher waren die Schularten noch gleichberechtigt. Auf die Hauptschule sind die Menschen gegangen, die später eher handwerkliche Berufe erlernt haben. Auf die Realschule sind die gegangen, die zum Beispiel im Büro oder bei der Bank gearbeitet haben und auf das Gymnasium sind die gegangen, die später studieren und einen akademischen Beruf erlernen wollten.
Heute ist es leider so, dass alles was unterhalb des Gymnasiums ist, oftmals als minderwertig angesehen wird.
Das muss aber sehr "früher" gewesen sein.1970, vor 50 Jahren, war es jedenfalls nicht mehr so, für eine Banklehre sollte man 9 Jahre später schon Abitur haben, und die Hauptschule war stigmatisiert. Vor 70 Jahren mag Deine Aussage gegolten haben.
Früher sind alle mit Eltern mit viel Geld auf Gymnasium gegangen. Alle mit Eltern mit Geld auf die Realschule und alle anderen auf die Haupt/Volksschule...
Das habe ich (1975 geboren) auch noch so erlebt. Ich war auf der Realschule und manche bekamen direkt im Anschluss einen Ausbildungsplatz in der Bank bzw. Sparkasse oder wurden Bürokaufleute. Heute muss man selbst für irgendeinen Furzjob mindestens Abitur oder studiert haben. Ich komme mir dann immer komisch vor, wenn ich Jüngeren sage, ich war auf der Realschule, ehe ich mein Fachabitur gemacht habe.
@@Henning_Rech Das kommt vielleicht auf die Region an? Ich weiß noch, als ich in Bremerhaven zur Schule ging nach der Realschule und ich nicht mehr solche Probleme mit Mathe hatte. Meine Französischlehrerin erzählte uns dann mal, dass sie ursprünglich aus Bayern kam mit ihren zwei Töchtern. Erst waren sie in Niedersachsen, wo die beiden sich ein Jahr lang schulisch praktisch ausruhen konnten, dann im Land Bremen, wo sie erneut sich ein Jahr lang keine Sorgen machen mussten. Dafür hatte z. B. meine Schule (Realschule), die ich auf dem Dorf besucht hatte, bei den Lehrern in Bremerhaven einen guten Ruf, also dass von dort Schüler kamen, die auch was leisten konnten.
@@Henning_Rech Also ich habe 1993 meinen Abschluss gemacht und zu dieser Zeit hat es gerade angefangen, dass Gymnasiasten etwas besseres waren. Habe aus der Zeit genug Bekannte, die mit einem Realschulabschluss eine Lehre als Bankkaufmann, oder anderweitig im Büro gemacht haben. Und die die in der Hauptschule waren sind fast ausnahmslos in eine Handwerkerlehre gegangen, oder haben eine weiterführende Schule besucht um die Mittlere Reife nachzuholen.
I still think that the experience is different depending on wether you are an immigrant from a western country or not. For example a Turkish or an Arabic or a black person would have another experience than a Scandinavian or a white US American person. The formers are called immigrants, whereas the later are called expats! The social and academical status of the parents play a role at well. I thought therefore you would encounter less obstacles, but it seems as the rest of the comments say, Bavaria is special. Congratulations that it worked for your kids at the end. I think school system in Germany has a lot of Luft nach oben!
:(((((
„A lot of Luft nach oben“ 😂. Love that! 😊.
I‘d like to add: an expat is not an immigrant (as you probably know yourself). It’s just that people started calling themselfs expats here on CZcams although they intend to stay in their chosen countries. Probably because immigrant has such a negative vibe to it.
I hate it and it is not doing anyone a favour!
Absolutely, I'm sure that's true. There is still a strong bias towards Middle Eastern and African people among white people. It's not fair and not okay!
@@missis_jo1017 Yeah our German followers brought that up in our comments when we first moved here, and I think it's such a good point. That's why we call ourselves immigrants now. We have chosen to move and stay in Germany, so we are immigrants. Now I do know many Americans who are sent to Germany through the military who are only stationed here for 2-4 years. Those people I do consider expats, as they know they're leaving in a short time.
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife
Agreed! And I too learned about it in several CZcams comment sections. I mean, I knew that the term expat described a person who stays for a designated time period. But thanks to the comments section I came to realize that especially white people tend to call themselves expats when in fact they intend to stay. I noticed that you are calling yourselfs immigrants now and I very much applaud it.
.
And to anyone who might think it‘s just a term and unneccessary: it is important that immigrants are seen as the diverse group that they are. Because when we talk about immigrant policies they all are affected and this country hugely profits off of immigrants on a much larger scale than most haters can imagine.
The education system is nearly incomprehensible for the rest of the world, because Germany, Austria and Switzerland have a state controlled vocational education system.
Historically, at the beginning of industrialization, these countries took a different decision than the rest of the world. Instead of abolishing the guilds and their training and quality control mechanisms, they transferred it into a state controlled system.
In most countries in the world doing an apprenticeship does not come with any type of quality control. If you do an apprentice as a baker, you might have become a world class baker at the end or you might have bagged hamburger buns spit out by a big machine for some years.
In Germany, Austria and Switzerland, companies have to qualify for taking on apprentices and the apprentices work at the company as well as going to school. But the important part is: for each profession, there is a state controlled curriculum and an according exam.
In most other countries the only way to get the same quality control over curriculum and exam is in the college system.
After finalizing apprenticeship and some years of work practice, one can become a master or technician, which enables to run an own business and train apprentices. This system is the reason why it is not uncommon for people with "vocational" training to earn more than college graduates.
Of course there is also a huge social component regarding the acceptance of these career paths.
Both, but especially the latter are the main reasons why comparisons with the rest of the world don't really work.
On the other hand, for Germans it seems quite absurd to study crafts like carpentry at a college.
Funny side effect, the OECD frequently states that Germany has not enough college graduates, because they don't factor in the job profiles and responsibilities of people with vocational training, but only their formal qualifications. For example, nurses and midwifes training traditionally is not part of the college system, but handled by specific schools, usually attached to hospitals, but due to EU (and OECD) influence, is moving now to "universities" and bachelor degrees (of course without any change as to the scope or quality of the training or later job practice and income).
wow, that is interesting.
It was not easy to explain my qualifications to a foreign company when I applied for a job even though I was actually perfectly qualified to do the job and this is the reason why.
Ausbildung is just not something that really exists like it does in those three countries.
@@DieAlteistwiederda This is even worse when your qualifikation is a "technician". In english speaking countries they might consider you beeing a "repairperson" of some kind, not knowing that this is a state certified continued professional development, that requires a three years vocational training plus several years of relevant professional experience to go for. Nowadays a technician degree is equated to a bachelor degree.
That’s exactly what I told my peers in Japan when we had to talk about the education system in out respective countries. I even used the same examples 😅.
That was ten years ago and apparently nothing changed!
I don’t like that we split the students this early on in their lifes. I think it doesn‘t do them any good and it certainly doesn‘t help building a well rounded society.
However, I do like our system of vocational training and I think it is a shame that to this day the focus is almost solely on the number of college graduates instead of all graduates we „produce“.
Also, now with the splitting of our Magister/Diploma into Bachelor and Master degrees, I thing a Master of a craft (Meister) should absolutely be treated as an equivalent to a Masters-degree from University. With this, our statistics would look very differently and we could finally go back to encourage our children to pursue what they are interested in, not what looks better on paper 😤.
@@missis_jo1017 Totally agree.
I went Realschule. It was great, had the best classmates possible. Everyone was grounded and I learnt a lot of social intelligence there. After Realschule I visited the gymnasium und later did study at University. Wouldn't want it to happen differently.
But didn’t you have to have extra foreign languages to take you to Gymnasium. Realschule does only German and English. At least here.
@@twingytwango6971 i could take the 2nd language from class 11 to 13 on the gymnasium. But it would have been possible to take the 2nd language as Wahlpflichtkurs in the Realschule
@@twingytwango6971 Unsinn! J'étais au Realschule il y a 45 ans et j'avais le français de la 7e à la 10e année and English from the 5th grade 😎
@@zwiderwurzn5908 wieso Unsinn? In der Realschule braucht man eine zweite Fremdsprache, Englisch ist keine Fremdsprache es ist Pflicht sowie Deutsch.
@@twingytwango6971 Englisch wird dennoch als Fremdsprache angesehen, ab der 7. Klasse kann man dann auch Französisch wählen.
I remember when my son was still in Grundschule I was a Elternvertreter. During a conference for the reports for the first year of school his teacher said about a female classmate from Iraq that she will only get a recommendation for Hauptschule.
I used to help her with her homework after school since her parents german language skills weren't sufficient.
I noticed that she was so eager to learn wanted to understand and fit in.
I just met her mother, this girl went to Gymnasium because she wanted to got so much. And guess what ? She mastered the Abitur with 1.5 !!!!!!
She did everything on her own no help.
Now she is going to University to study medicine !!!!
The teachers in Grundschule failed her so much !!!!
I am a German with 3 kids who are now 15+ years old. Over the years everything I have heard and observed drove me to the conclusion, that all the screw up of kids happen in Grundschule. Especially in maths there are a lot of teachers overwhelmed teaching this subject and the only idea they have is to put pressure on the children. And those are the same people that do the recommendations for the further path in life. And it I really looks to me that the split into different level schools is based to a large part on math.
I used to attend an adult evening hobby art class. A few Grundschule teachers were among the lot. During their discussions I gathered a whole lot of information about how children from a non German background or as they like to say migrants, are funnelled through to the Hauptschule. It was certainly an eye opener for me. If immigrants have a language barrier they cannot support their children in the school system and I can tell you that those teachers are not about to do so either.
Sounds familiar. Primary school in BW failed my children miserably. They killed their curiosity.
What do you mean, in your NEXT video? Is this already over? Oh NO!
Man, you just STARTED this one!
😀😀🤩 thank you! You’re the best!
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife now I have to wait another week ... :(
@@furzkram 😢😢😢 if I could edit faster, it would be up sooner!
You did such a great job in being insistent. You`re kids will definitely do well with such parents.
I am shocked to hear what you have experienced ... I don't think that I have ever seen, heard about a such unsupportive principal. Particularily on the "that is no option for 'them'". I am really sorry for you experiencing this. Hope after this is now settled your kids now landed in a supportive environment that help them growing and learning :)
Yeah he is quite strict! But yes it all worked out in the end - on Sunday we will have a video about how it’s going!
I think that´s a Bavarian thing. In Baden-Württemberg You can choose the school which You want for Your children. You get a recommendation for Your child, but You don´t be forced to follow that. Also children can change in class 7 from Realschule to Gymnasium. Again after class 10 they can change.
And that's a big problem, because parents with high status jobs force their kids to enter Gymnasium no matter if they are capable or not
@@ravanpee1325 yeah, and then they blame the teachers, that the children are doing bad! Seen it a lot!
We have heard Bavarian education is more traditional and strict.
@@kevinmcfall5285 That's the reason Bavaria is No.1 in every education panel among the states. Strict might be the wrong word. More value of differentiation than "equality no matter the performance". A Realschule degree in Bavaria is more demanding than an Abitur degree in Berlin. Your kids will laugh at the university about the lack of knowledge of kids from northern Germany e.g. My roomate from the state of Niedersachsen didn't learn to calculate a derivative in mathematics which was pretty basic for uns without a calculator.
@@kevinmcfall5285 the most important thing about the German school system in general is, that it is flexible, if the child is smart enough. Take me for example: I started of in Hauptschule. In grade 7, I enrolled in a special course called "Werk-Realschule", which allowed me to catch up with Realschule students. When I finished that, I went into a 2 year secondary school, which lifted me up to "Fachhochschulreife" (required grade for Universities of applied science). I enrolled in such a University and finished as best student of my year.
The future is bright, if you work for it, but don't force it, if it doesn't fit!
As a teacher at a bavarian Gymnasium I liked hearing the perspective of the parents. I often had Gastschüler in my classes and most of them were allowed to stay at the Gymnasium!
Oh good! I’m glad you enjoyed hearing our perspective as the parents. I’m sure there is much we can all learn from each other to make education for our children great!
Hearing your story here makes one aware again of what one has experienced oneself. I came to southern Bavaria in 1985 four weeks before the end of fourth grade. I didn't know a word of German and my parents had other problems than helping me in school. So I had to spend two years at different schools speciallized on German or at that time Hauptschule to catch up on my German. Every teacher said to my parents, I have to go to the Gymnasium. But in my time it meant that in 1987 I had to go through the fifth grade in the Gymnasium for the third time, because my school principal was not allowed to decide for himself yet. The story had a happy ending. I was the first from my family to study and get a doctorate, but with three years older than my co-students - the Bundeswehr also took me a year.
Your story gives me hope that something has changed a bit for the better and I keep my fingers crossed for you and especially Gabriel that he will make it. All six of you stay awesome!
Congrats! Another option for people who can't afford to study (besides going for "BAFÖG"), is to enlist with the Bundeswehr/German Army where you will get full salary as an officer, while studying.
Wow, went on to get your doctorate! Good for you, I’m sure that wasn’t easy. So glad it hear it worked out for you.
Just in general, for every german you encounter that says it has to be 100% strict to the rules and there is no exception, you just have to look a bit further because there is another german that is willing to try to help. This also often applies to state authorities.
Yeah such a good tip!
One key word you should look for is "eigentlich" ("actually"), as used in "eigentlich geht das nicht".
In that context, the speaker actually confers that the rules forbid it, but that there is a way around the obstacle.
@@OtmarLendl I will keep my eye out for eigentlich!
@@OtmarLendl so true, had so many people tell me that it EIGENTLICH doesn't work but actually there was a way to work around that issue with a bit of extra work or some creativity. Eigentlich just means it's not a direct path but there is a possibility.
@@kevinmcfall5285 "eigentlich nein" equals "ja" ;)
Wow your kids had a really rough start at school with being not able to attend at school, but doing homeschooling in a totally different language. Poor kids this is really hard. Especially for Greyson being in the 4th grade of elementary school, where they decide at the end to which school your kid should go in the future... :( Pretty hard
Yes! It was very tough. We did hire a German tutor and she was very helpful.
You two make such a great team--and your kids are so lucky to have a worldly education!!
Thank you so much!
This school system is not that bad and unfair as it might seem. What people like to forget, this system is very permeable! Even if you start on the Hauptschule in 5th grade you can get to Realschule in 5 or 6th grade and then later on on the Gynmasium and go to the university.
The real reason they don't like to put immigrated or working class kids on the Gynasium is, that you need a lot of support from home to make it on the Gynasium and finally to university, and most kids with that kind of background don't get any support from their parents.
German Gynasium is also not really comparable with a puplic american highschool. The learning level is more like on private schools
I think this permeability is the biggest thing they missed. I started in Grundschule, changed to Realschule, then to Gesamtschule and finally to university. Just to drop out and start a job education 🙂 The main problem I think they will have is the prejudice that most people say: "you're only worth something/ you can only do this job if you went to gymnasium/ to university". So don't worry much about the school form as your kids will have many opportunities to adapt to another career path if the gymnasium path won't work at any time 🙂
There is so much bureaucracy and headaches that goes into moving to another country. That is awesome that you worked so much to do the best for your kids, and that things worked out
Yes that’s true. I imagine it’s difficult no matter where you go with kids.
Every State in Germany is different. We all got other rules for schools. As far as I know, Bavaria is known to be the most strict on their school system, even so it can depend on the direct school too.
Thanks so much for this excellent video. We are planning to move to Bavaria (from Illinois) next year. We have a 7-year-old son.... I hope I can learn a lot from your upcoming videos. I am from Germany originally and hope to find a great school for him.
Best of luck in your move and transition! Our previous videos on Grundschule might be able to help you.
Sadly, to this day, your socio-economic background often determines what type of school you end up in. Many studies have shown that children from low-incom families and children of immigrants are much more likely to go to Mittelschule/Hauptschule, whereas the children of academics almost exclusively go to Gymnasium. That's why I like Gesamtschule, it allows kids more flexibility, and exposes them to peers from all different backgrounds. (Another thing I really dislike about our school system is this thing called Sonderschule, a school for kids with disabilities. By taking them out of regular school, it basically means that most kids in Germany grow up with zero exposure to disabled people. A lot of activists call it Aussonderung, 'sorting out'.
Children of migrants are of course also entitled to a place in a day-care centre for children under 3 years of age. The Kita is the most important place for children to learn the German language. But families often do not register their children.
Or else - especially in conurbations - the proportion of migrant children predominates and they thus have less contact with German-speaking children of the same age.
Language is really the biggest hurdle for these children when they could later move on to higher schools at school age. In these families, the language spoken at home is often not German but the native language. The German school system cannot really be blamed for the lack of language skills.
Italy has a similar system, but at least people are allowed to go to university much more easily if they graduate from a vocational school compared to how hard it is to switch path in Germany. Sure they may struggle without the same preparation, but that's on them, and sometimes a few years later people are more mature then they were as teens, and they are up for the challenge and succeed
If you teach everybody in one class, from severely disabled students up to very smart kids, everybody loses. How would you teach math in a way that the Hauptschüler understands it and the Gymnasiast doesn't waste his time with waiting? One of my babysitter kids is 12, but mentally 6. She goes to a Sonderschule with her own assistant. You can't put her in a normal school, leave alone in a Gesamtschule. She wouldn't understand anything and if the teachers would slow down to explain 6th grade math/grammar/physics to her, the whole class would go full stop.
@@Roger-np3wi sorry, but I have to contradict you here. You are right as far as Kindergarten goes. Many kids with a migrational background don't go there because their parents can't afford the fees.
But during my 38 years of teaching at Realschule ( starting at 5.th grade) I saw and taught thousands of kids with a migrational background who spoke only their parents' native language at home. None of those who had gone to Grundschule before had any language difficulties.
Those who had just come to Germany came to my school right away and had 4-5 weekly parallel lessons of DAZ ( Deutsch als Zweitsprache, German as second language) but otherwise participated in the normal lessons.
It was always amazing to see how fast they integrated themselves socially as well as language wise.
@@dude988 Yes, that is a problem. Integration doesn't make much sense when some kids feel bad all the time because they never have any success while others get bored because progress is too slow for them.
Many parents of intellectually disabled kids would rather send their kids to a 'Sonderschule' than confronting them with disappointment all the time.
Integration of bodily disabled kids on the other hand makes a lot of sense because the not disabled kids learn to be respectful, tolerant, responsible and mindful and the disabled might be encouraged to try more things and feel accepted.
Hi guys, I have had a similar experience: My dad worked for an American computer company and had an offer to work in San Jose, CA. All the family agreed and we went. I went to the senior high one year and then two years to college, getting an Associate in Arts degree. Then we had to plan our return to Germany. Before we left for the States we lived in Bavaria. The state of Bavaria would not accept the degree as an equivalent to "Abitur", the graduation from Gymnasium. The reason being that my school and college schedule didn't have any German lessons, the officials expectations being classical literature. About a year later the family moved to the state of Rheinland-Pfalz and the "Kultusministerium", the minister of culture, arts, and school, had no qualms accepting the degree as an equivalent to "Abitur".
Yes, Bavaria is a bit special in those cases. In the 1970s, when I went to Gymnasium there, kids that had gone to Hauptschule or Realschule had no chance of getting into Gymnasium.
Respect, you fought your way through German bureaucracy.👍👍
Thanks for your support!
I always struggle with the term: bureaucracy.
@@susannabonke8552 - crazy bureau ;o)
@@agn855 😀😂
Thank you. Love your videos. Helpful
I really like your editing. The little clips you add while we can still listen to you talking are fun.
Awe thank you! I don’t want it to be a “talking heads” video.
Kids can transfer between schools too :) They don't have to stick in one. After Realschule (grade 10) you can also transfer to Gymnasium and in Gesamtschule you can get your Gymnasium-Abschluss as well :) it's not a strict path. I went to Gymnasium from 5-6, transferred to Realschule from 7-10 and did my Abitur in Gesamtschule from 10-13. I'm now in my Master and will end my University studies next year! All doors are open for your Kids. Good luck!
You can‘t switch to an upper school after a certain age in Bavaria, there‘s restrictions. And there aren’t Gesamtschulen everywhere. In my home town there isn’t one (but we have 3 Gymnasiums 😄)
So it might be a bit more complicated…
In some areas of Germany it can be pretty hard to switch path, if it's possible at all
@@bellathemusicaddict I googled that but I can't find any restrictions. The child has to take a test to switch from the Realschule to the Gymnasium, but that's it.
pretty hard in Bavaria, as you need a Gymnasium that offers that special class and these are reallly rare in Bavaria, especially in South Bavaria.
I see this switching quite often. I know several students who have completed Realschule and are now completing Gymnasium to Abi. Also one friend’s daughter was in Realschule and the teachers requested to speak to the parents. After 5th, she moved to Gymnasium. If the child wants it and is willing to do the work, (not the parents pushing) they can easily switch/continue with the support of the teachers.
I also have a friend whose child was in my son’s class in gymnasium. She is very intelligent but wasn’t up to doing the work. She asked, despite great grades, to switch to Realschule where things were easier. She writes only 1s without ever putting in any effort but she is happier. Perhaps later she will finish her abi, or maybe not. There are so many paths in life.
Thank you so much for these school series! My kids are still very small, so I know nothing and really appreciate all the info ❤️
You’re welcome! We hope it makes it easier for you.
You are such a lovely family and I am just amazed how well your son Grayson pronounced 'Grundschule' and all the other ...Schule too!
Even though there are these different types of schools to choose from, depending on a child's interests and ability to learn, some children just need more time to 'bloom with academics'. I often found that the early 'separation' switching to a different school at a certain age put a lot of pressure on families and was not always fair and in a child's best interest.
But luckily today, there is always the possibility to make up for it later, so they can still continue with higher education or university, if then they still choose to do so.
Thank you so much! Yeah Grayson’s pronunciation is amazing!
What everyone sould keep in mind is the fact that you have ways to go to a colleges with every school in germany. I went only to a Hauptschule back in the days. Because i was lazy (Teacher from my 1st class can confirm). So i finished school with an age of 15. I started an "Ausbildung" for 3,5 years in mechanics (Industriemechaniker Maschinen und Systemtechnik). The german system for "Ausbildung" is very special. You learn the work in a company and a school (4 days in the company 1 day at school). So with 19 i finished this with good grades. So i can go to school (Fachhochschule / Fachoberschule) for 2 years to make a "Fachabitur" to study in the field of my "Ausbildung" or for 3 years to make the normal "Abitur" for college. But that´s not the only way. You can get further education (Industrie oder Handwerksmeister, Techniker). So i went to a "Techniker" school for 2 years to become a "Maschinenbau Techniker". So if i want to go to a college, i can in my field. I can not study art. But i can study engeniering. If i want to go for my Bachlor of engeniering an can shorten the semesters because i am a Maschinenbau Techniker. So i need only 3 Semester to my Bachlor degree. So in the end everybody have a way to study in Germany. For myself i be happy i had no stress in school. I had a great Childhood and i still can make what ever i want in the future.
Thank you!! I keep telling people this all the time - you do not have to go to Gymnasium just to study. For some kids Gymnasium is just not the right way. And that's more than OK!
... and a majestic, gorgeous lookin' cat! 😉
Noice, the pronunciation of your son is already on point.
(all of them doin a great job; Respect!)
Hi Daniel! Thank you!
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife To be a bit more critical: while Grayson was doing very well, his "Realschule" sounded a bit like "Rialschule". Otherwise perfect.
Graysons pronunciation is perfect.
Honestly, my English teacher was from Minnesota and her German was great. Well, she had been living here for more than a decade, married a German... but... your sons' pronunciation is much better than hers. Initially I thought that is one of your kids' classmates helping out but... yeah... Grayson sounds like a born and raised German boy. That is really impressive ( what a sweet nice boy btw :) it is so obvious that your kids are raised with much love!)
Its always astonishing how fast kids adopt a new language! Your son has a nearly no accent when he says the different school types! Great!
Yeah it’s incredible!
Thank You for Your great videos! I came across Your channel by chance a few weeks ago and it is always nice for me to be able to witness Your experiences and impressions. Incidentally, I don't live that far from You - 24 km away from my birth place Prien am Chiemsee. I attended the Ludwig-Thoma-Gymnasium there in Prien. However, that was about forty years ago :-) So I cannot judge how the individual schools are today, because a lot has changed since then. But I think that You will find the right schools for Your children, becuase You have such an impressively positive outlook on life that I am sure that You will also be able to overcome future difficulties! Good luck and many more wonderful experiences in Bavaria! (and as few repulsive experiences as possible, such as the encounter with the rejecting school principal :-) ) PS: To my shame I have to admit that I did not write this comment in English myself, but used Google Translate. But no matter: The main thing is that the message comes across.
Thst you cant go to Gymnasium as a migrant is new to me. We had many migrant classmates, but it is true that your teacher in Grundschule sorts out who may go to gymnasium and often their decissions are pretty biased.
My friend was sent to hauptschule where she was very bored and did move up to gymnasium one year later. Her teachers reasoning was that her family had a farm and "farmers girls need to help at home and have no time to study"
She graduated 2nd best in her year...
To my knowledge parents can overrule the decision of a primary teacher regarding the high school career path of your children. At least that’s how things are handled in North-Rhine-Westphalia and Berlin. And I’d be VERY surprised if this weren’t valid for the rest of Germany. The only problem then is the fact that Gymnasiums only have to accept students living within their precinct.
Of course our bureaucrats are always happy to make use of the lack of knowledge of newly arrived - especially if they lack language skills…
@@buerostumpf it is not for bavaria. Or at least wasnt when I was in 4th grade
I am sorry about your discouraging experiences with German schools. Unfortunately, they aren’t untypical of the school system in all of Germany.
As a teen I went to a Gymnasium but my grades weren’t good in all subjects and I had to switch to a Realschule. It was easier there and I had a good time. After graduation I went back to a gymnasium to get the degree to apply at a university. I have never been better at school than that time. One of the reasons was that back then in NRW you could drop maths and choose most of your other subjects yourself. Maybe I was also more ambitious by then.
Later I got to know four more schools as a teacher: a Hauptschule, two Realschules and a Gesamtschule, at which I am still teaching.
It is true that Gymnasiums are unlikely to take physical or emotional handicapped children or those with a migration background. They usually only take the “advanced” children” and those should be good at school from the very beginning. That’s just the approach of a school system that divides students between their learning skills.
But even if you start out on a Hauptschule or a Realschule you can switch to a Gymnasium after year 6 and 10 and probably even in between if your grades are very good and the teachers see that you are unchallenged. In NRW the system is rather flexible.
Of course, Gymnasium is the most popular type of school as it is seen as a sign of high prestige when your kids are able to learn easily and belong to the half of the population that can attend a Gymnasium.
Which leads to the problem that here in NRW many Gesamtschules are not so popular with the parents whose kids are advanced. Geamtschules welcome kids of all abilities just like an American high school, but since many people don’t want their kids to mix with lower advanced children, foreigners and behavioral challenging children they prefer not to send their children there.
It’s not that I can’t understand that thought myself, I am a mother too, but it’s still a pity that schools for “everybody” don’t get “all” students.
It’s also true that teaching “everybody” in one class is a challenge and that smarter kids might gain more on a Gymnasium in regards to academics since the students are more interested in different topics and learning as a whole, and thus often behave better. At least the problems of friends that teach at a Gymnasium seem to be ridiculous compared to the problems we have at some Gesamtschules.
I have seen your channel today for the first time.I haven t looked for one and it was only luck that it was shown by youtube..I am 42 with 2 kids ,a 10y boy and a 9y old girl with my wife.You are very symphatic and in the next days mabe i have time to look some more videos from you. mfg Tobias from Germany
Thanks for watching, Tobias!
You guys are wonderful parents. I think it doesn't really matter what school your kids go to, they will find their way and thrive. Gabriel is gonna be some kind of academic for sure, and Grayson will be successfull as well. And the others too. They gonna make it because they have wonderful, daring parents who give them space to develop and opportunity.
Thank you so much 🤗❤️
I am so happy for you that everything worked out. I heard that it's not so easy to get into Gymnasium in Germany. I am from Austria and in some Gymnasiums the bar for entrance is even higher, like 1,2 Notendurchschnitt when you come from Grundschule. Your kids are doing so well and you can be really proud of your/their integration skills.
Thank you so much! So Austria also has a Gymnasium type of system? 1,2 is really high!
I'm not sure how this is handled in Bavaria, but in Lower Saxony the parents decide if they send their kids to Gymnasium or not. The school gives just a recommendation wich form of school will be best for the child. So basically it is very easy to get into Gymnasium.
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife Yes, kind of :D. We have the options Mittelschule/Hauptschule or Gymnasium (but no Realschule). Usually you go to Gymnasium for 8 years in ordert o study at university, but you can also change schools after 4 years and go to HTL (which ist specifically for technical skills like architecture or mechanical engineering as a preparation for a technical university or for a technical job) or HLW (Hauswirtschaftslehre) or HBLA (arts) or...and usually after Mittelschule you can start a Lehre like in Germany.
Kids that went to. Hauptschule or Realschüler can still work their way up to the Abitur and go study at university. So, even if a normal gymnasium doesn't work for the kid, there are options to still go to uni. But it takes a bit longer.
In my city all foreigners that had to learn German first before joining regular class were all put in one class for a year. Students for the regular classes joined them for classes to help on a volunteer basis. You could sign up and then get out of your class maybe once a week to join and help the new kids so that they get peers to help along with the teacher. Also make friends outside of that all foreigner class. They normally joined a normal class after a year at their age group. I went to a gymnasium in a city and we had (mostly refugee) foreign kids spread out on all schools. Always thought that was quite nice. Since you can end gymnasium after grade 10 too if you want it works fine when kids don’t want to make Abitur, but they have the possibility to!
I can totally relate to your story! When I was looking for a Gymnasium for my eldest son, it was a nightmare! He is very intelligent and there are.not many schools which focus on talent promotion. Getting in there is extremely difficult and people often go so far as to change their residence registration (pretend to live somewhere else) just to have better chances to get into a particular school. Some private schools have waiting lists of several years! I am happy for you that everything worked out in the end. But as some other posters already pointed out: Good education hugely depends on the parent‘s efforts and unfortunately it‘s not a level playing field for every child! Austria where I live and Germany are very alike in that matter.
I’m sorry to hear it was a struggle for you as well. Yeah it’s not fair that the success depends on the parents’ efforts. But when I think about it, that applies to everything in raising children. The children who have involved, loving parents turn out to be much happier more successful adults. But it’s sad and unfair that it’s that way.
I think I said this before on another video, Grayson has very good pronunciation. It wouldn't surprise me if he has pitch perfect or near pitch perfect hearing -- which is quite a boon when taking up music! (or in this case a new language)
That’s a good point! Maybe he would like to learn an instrument.
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife oh yes! You could also look out for „Musikalische Früherziehung“ , that can be a lot of fun for younger kids like Ella. They get introduced to different instruments and can try things out.
As much as I liked my school time (went to a very good catholic Gymnasium), it has to be said that the German school system is unfair to kids coming from socially/financially challenged families and/or, as mentioned, immigrant families. This is well known for decades, but no one really wants to change it.
Yeah we can really understand that better now.
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife Well at least you and your family is not "the immigrant family" ment in this context.
My gymnasium had classes especially for immigrants with little German knowledgeso ⅕ of students were refugees and immigrants.
But I think it's kind of sad, that it was something special my school did.
Especially, because Germany is so dependant on immigration.
Coming from an immigrant family myself I say that is nonsense. I went to a Realschule, reached my Mittlere Reife, switched to a Gymnasium due to my grades, and finished my Abitur. I know many immigrant families with children in a Gymnasium. If the children are willing to put up the effort and their families support them (and I do not mean money here), it is much easier than say the US where public schools often seem to lack support.
@@Bumi-90 You cant blame the school system for the failures of the government. Unlike almost all other western countries we have no immigration control at all. So we get a lot of uneducated people (some cant even write) from countries with very different cultures and habits. And because there are so many of them, they develop subcultures instead of willing to integrate themselves even to a minimum standard. Of course not all, but it is getting an issue. For every ten uneducated immigrants one high skilled worker(tax payed education of course) leaves the country. I dont think this kind of immigration will help anyone.
Ugh this brought up so many memories. We came to Germany when I was attending 6th grade as well, also hardly speaking any German. As I was attending a Gymnasium in an other country before, but I also only got in "auf Probe" for a year before they decided whether I could keep attending. I remember the first time sitting in the principals office and him asking me all these questions to evaluate my German .. after being here for 2 weeks.. and I just started crying because I couldn't understand most of what he was asking. It all worked out eventually as kids really do learn languages super fast when speaking with their peers - so fingers crossed for you and your kids, I hope they can all attend the schools that are a good fit for them and where they can thrive :)
Awe goodness, yes, you really do understand what it's like! It's very intimidating to start school in a new country.
This was back in 2003 and it had all turned out just fine so I hope it does for your kids as well :)
Dear Sarah and Kevin,
I am so sorry that you had this bad experience in the german school, but this is common among more traditional Gymnasien. As a child of immigrants, I want to share my experience with you. My average grades were enough to go to the Gymnasium, but my elementary teachers didn't want me to go, because of my foreign family background. You need the "Lehrempfehlung" back then. They said the same things that it would be too difficult for me to understand everything, although I spoke perfect german at that time. And just because of my very persistent, very Russian parents I got into the best school in our area. Now as an adult speaking 5 languages and with a master degree in science, I am very happy and thankful that my parents didn't give up and got through the struggle of putting me in a Gymnasium. Don't let the teacher hold your kids back!
All the best from Saxony,
Olga
Back in my day (Boy do I sound old) we did not have any grades in the "Grundschule", we were just assessed by the teachers towards the following schools and I did not get a recommendation towards "Gymnasium" so my parents put me into the "Gesamtschule" which also provided the option to graduate with an "Abitur" (at that point only Gesamtschule and Gymnasium offered the Abitur, which was needed to attenc college/university). There you could finish either with a "Hauptschulabschluss" after year 9, "Realschulabschluss" after year 10 or "Abitur" after year 13. The last year (due to an asbestos crisis most classes had to go to other schools to join their programs, with me and others going to "Gymanasiums" for that time, including the last 3 years, and we were on par with their level of education, sometimes even above). Changing schools after a year was also not that uncommon, so if I had gone to a "Realschule", after being among the top of my class for one or two years they also could recomment a transfer to a "Gymnasium" because there was a lot of evaluation for cases like that. Btw, I would never yawn at any of your videos, unlike with others I am not even able to just listen to it without watching since you have a lot of beautiful footage in your videos.
For me, you sound a youngster, going to elementary school AFTER the grades had been abolished there ;) - And in spite your education you seem not to realize that various states have different education systems; what you describe would never have happened in Bavaria, starting with the "Gesamtschule".
@@Henning_Rech Well, I am 46 years old so I take the youngster as a compliment. Seems like I should be even more glad that I am born and live in Hamburg and not in Bavaria. Sounds like a really unflexible and rigid system that has problems adjusting to changes.
For people from other countries wondering: the three schools after elementary school (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium) are open to one another, meaning you can build up from one to another: after Hauptschule (9years) a year longer in Realschule (10 years), after Realschule two years in Gymnasium (12 years). You could of course go to Gymnasium right away all 12 years, but the system is build this way for two reasons basically: 1. For the kids to learn in an environment that fits their needs and ability and 2. For societal needs (with Hauptschule you get workers basically, with Realschule office jobs or assistant jobs, with Realschule you can go to college afterwards). But more and more this system is changed to full Gesamtschule, basically all three schools in one, what you would call highschool.
When I got my Abitur in the early 2000s up in Lower Saxony, I went to one of the 'better' Gymnasiums in the city. I managed to scrape by. My brother on the other hand who started at Realschule got his grades high enough in the last year there to move on to Gymnasuim after and graduated from the same school with a better grade!
In many cases it is possible to move from one level of school to the next higher (or lower), so even if your boys would not have started in Gymnasium, I'm sure there'd have been a chance to move ther after a year.
Many things have changed in these ~20 years and rules do differ in between the Bundesländer. Having friends with children of the age of yours will help, as they'll be able to explain better what is going on, than many of us where the variables are not the same (different Bundesland; children of another age; different school system etc).
your situation and dealing with problems are very interesting. Fair play to you for learning German and trying to integrate. I hope people in Anglophile countries realise and have some time and respect for others moving into the USA, UK etc who have to learn English and adapt to a new situation. Tschuess!
Yes I do hope talking about our experience as immigrants and the challenges we face will help people everywhere have compassion and empathy among immigrants in their countries.
for me the Gesamtschule is the best concept, because its basically for everyone and you can do the Abitur too, or just move to an gymnasium later.
Yeah that does sound good! And it’s how it’s done in the US also. The downside is that the smarter children can get really picked on and they become afraid to answer questions in class.
es ist nie eine gute Idee Leistungsstarke mit Leistungsschwachen in einen Raum zu setzen. Davon profitiert keiner.
This heavily depends on the area you live in. I would always try to go for a dedicated Gymnasium if possible.
@@elomnusk7656 Sehr richtig, denn bei der Gesamtschule geht es eher um ein linkes Konzept der Gleichheit aller
But how do you ensure that socio-economic status gets inherited, then? Next thing you'll see is children of janitors studying astrophysics, obviously, heralding the demise of the Occident!
The school system is not only different in every state but also every school has different subjects and specifies on different topics (music, science,...). Also, in Berlin and Brandenburg the Grundschule is from grade 1-6 and they start to go to Gymnasium, Gesamtschule, etc. in grade 7 which is different in the rest of Germany🙂
Und ich finde es viel besser, dass die Schüler hier erst ab der 7. Klasse auf eine weiterführende Schule gehen. Es ist schon schwierig genug für 12 Jährige eine so wichtige Entscheidung zu treffen, bei 10 Jährigen finde ich das noch viel komplizierter. Außerdem sind die Altersgruppen hier nicht so weit von einander entfernt (7.-10. bzw. 12. Klasse) und, zumindest sehe ich das so, ist es besser wenn man in diesem Alter ein neues Umfeld kennenlernt als schon zwei Jahre früher. Ich bin sicher kein Experte, aber ich finde, dass das System in diesem Punkt hier besser ist. Es gibt auch Gymnasien, die ab der 5. Klasse beginnen, aber ich kenne bis auf eine Person niemanden, der diese Möglichkeit wahrgenommen hat, sicherlich zum Teil aus den oben aufgeführten Gründen. Gibts da gegensätzliche Meinungen?
@@TS29er in der Schweiz kann man auch ab der 7. klasse ins gymnasium, man kann dies aber auch nach 2 oder 3 jahren an der sekundarschule noch tun und wiederholt wenn überhaupt nur ein jahr, finde ich auch besser so
@@TS29er one of the reasons Realschule and Hauptschule were given up here in Schleswig-Holstein in favour of 'Gemeinschaftsschule' was that neither parents nor students nor teachers from Grundschule have to decide now what school the kid goes to and that every kid has every chance to graduate from school with the education that fits their ability best. I'm not saying that this works but that was the idea.
To be honest : As a retired Realschul teacher I quit teaching when my school was transformed into a Gemeinschaftsschule because at my age I didn't feel I was qualified enough for that new challenge.
@@ProjektleiterBroteundBroetchen was für ein interessanter Name...
Same in Switzerland. Grundschule 1-6. after gymnasium or other options. That way, the child has more time to develop in Grundschule. Think, that’s better for most kids.
Love hearing the boy talk German 😍 would love to hear them talking more
Yes! We are planning a German speaking video.
Dear McFalls, I love your videos, I started watching the then current ones a couple month ago and I am currently watching your older videos. Even though this is not an issue for you right now, I just also wanted to point out that there is a big difference between Germany and America in terms of what it means to go to study, meaning that you kids could get a great job, also with a good income, without having to study. So just to let you know, not only are there various different ways to change in between school, but you also don't need to be stressed out if your kids don't go to the Gymnasium. The back forest family (a channel I also enjoy watching), has just brought out a very informative video on vocational training in Germany and how this differs from the US. Being a German, I think this is an in-depth analysis of how vocational training works. Going to university is not set out for everybody - and not intended here in Germany for everybody. Personally I have completed my university studies, but really often it has been very hard and often enough I wished that I had taken a different path - I made it but there are great variety of jobs out there that don't require a university degree. So just to give you another perspective on the subject of your kids' educational options and your personal stress level when it comes to it. Also, Bavaria has the highest requirements when it comes to academics in Germany, the Abitur there is much more difficult to obtain than in some other German states.
This really brings back memories, but slightly reversed. My family moved from Germany to Canada in 1952, when I was 12. My English language skill consisted of "yes", "no", "OK" and "chewing gum". We settled in a small town where there were no options regarding schools. I had been in grade 7 in Germany.
A few years before we arrived, there was an incident that, I believe, had a great impact on determining my grade placement in the new school. A 10 year old boy whose family had been refugees from a Baltic country had arrived, with pretty much zero English skills. Because he couldn't participate in class, after a few days, someone had the not so bright idea to put him with the first graders. The effect was that he felt so degraded (no pun intended) that now he didn't even make any effort to participate. Luckily for him, someone saw the light, and put him back into the grade with his own age group. To make a long story short, within a very short period of time he was at the head of the class, being awarded a very much coveted "Governor General's Medal", an honour bestowed on very few students in the whole country at the end of grade 9. He went on to earn and M. Sc. and a B. Ed., and was very successful. As an aside, to this day he is still one of my closest friends.
I believe that, because of the experience with my friend, when I arrived, I was put into grade 7, the grade I had been attending in Germany. We had arrived in October, but by the end of the school year, in June, I was promoted to grade 8, something not achieved by a couple of my classmates, as they still failed students in those days if it was felt that they were not ready to enter the next grade.
I had been a good student in Germany, and I tried very hard to learn. In math, my favourite subject, I was ahead of the rest of the class, partly due to having spent more time in school in Germany, due the six-days-per-week , plus having shorter school vacations, system, but I owe a great deal of credit to my grade seven teacher when it comes to learning English. To this day I don't know if it was because she didn't quite know what to do with me, or if she actually felt it was a good method, but every day she would have one of my classmates take me into an unused room, and I would have to read out of "Dick and Jane" books, a series of books written for children. I had no idea what I was reading, but I learned the correct pronunciations, and when I, in time, learned the meaning of the words, I would pronounce them correctly. I think that it worked, because I worked for one employer for several years, when my boss heard me speaking German. He had no idea that I had not been born in Canada.
The value of that method became apparent many years later, when my employer hired a man from Germany. I invited him and his wife to our house, and we became friends. His English was pretty good, his wife's not so much. However, she was a voracious reader, and read a lot of English books, and whenever she came across a word that she didn't know, she's look it up in the dictionary. That's good for learning the definition, but doesn't do much for teaching pronunciation. As a result, she had a good vocabulary, but her pronunciation was very poor. It was then when I realized what a great thing my teacher had done with me, and I've always regretted that I never had the opportunity to tell her. She had gotten married and moved away at the end of the school year.
I agree with a number of commentators here - you're great parents!!
Thank you ❤️!
In my bavarian Gymnasium it was never a problem to apply. As long as the grades were ok, everyone was allowed. I had several foreign students in my class.
Glad to hear that!
Yes, of course, in my class, too, but they had been longer in school than a few months.
A friend of mine start in Hauptschule, changes in class 7 to Realschule. After school he made a apprenticeship and worked 3 Years. After that he start Gymnasium and studied with 27. He finished his Studium normal and get a good Job. I finished just Realschule made a apprenticeship and worked since then. But I also learned some new stuff inbetween and made some upgrades.
The "Übertritt" meaning which secondary school they go to after Grundschule varies in its rules greatly in between memberstates. Bavaria as stated mostly goes by the academic grades, leading to intense pressure on forth-graders. In other states parents alone decide. Some states have the schools do give out binding recomendations, some just guidance. And some make a complete row of "Einstufungstests" (meaning level assessment) mandatory.
Berlin and surrounding Brandenburg are the only holdouts who sepperate just after 6. grade. Which I think is way better, as at age 10 seems way to early to settle on a definitive answer about a childs mental capabilities.
But yeah, Mittelschule/Hauptschule is meant for people who have a strong preference of "doing over thinking". Might be somewhat less so in rural Bavaria, but anywhere else this is usually the place where challenged kids wind up. Be it them being rather slow, their parents unsupportive/unconcerned or just helpless, broken homes ect. Engaged parents tend to endeavour anything to keep their kids from ending up there.
Wow, Grayson sounds like a German already.
I went to Realschule, had a great and enjoyable time and moved to Gymnasium after 10th grade. It was a hard time there (having the "Leistungskurse" math, physics and geography) but it worked somehow. After that I went to a more practical college, a University of Applied Sciences (called Fachhochschule) and have done my masters degree in engeneering. Now I am working in a IT department of an archaeological reseaech institute as Research Software Engineer ans Research Associate. To sum it up: there are a lot of ways in Germany to get there where you want, in my case doing computer science.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us - I think that's a great perk of the German system. That there are many paths and many different kinds of schools to suit each type of learner and profession.
I feel for you. Went through something similar in Austria. I even had to take a test to get into elementary school (Grundschule)
Oh my, to get into Grundschule? That’s strict!
Nice Video! :)
Your son's pronounciation is perfect!
Thank you! We guess he just has a natural talent for learning languages.
That seems to me to be more of a Bavarian phenomenon. Bavaria radically separates the three school careers, also locally.
Here in Hesse, comprehensive schools (Gesamtschulen) are the norm. All school careers and thus the supporting infrastructure are represented in one place. In Hesse you would put an English-speaking, newly immigrated child in Gymnasium classes. Because you can be sure that this is where integration works best. There are children who speak English at a higher level, and some of the children have bilingual lessons anyway, so that the German children benefit from having a native English speaker in the class.
The reaction of the Bavarian school management is pedagogically nonsense.
By the way, in 2015 refugees from Syria etc. were also put in the high school classes at my school. Those from academic parents, because they get support from their parents to learn quickly, and also those who first had to be literate. Because there was great willingness among the high school students to support the other children.
It worked. One of the illiterate childs passed the 5th best Mittlere Reife examination this year and is now attending high school. I'm sure she will go to University.
In Bavaria the same, special classes for refugees to attend Gymnasium. You can change school type in several years, it's not as radically as you assume.
@@Stoffmonster467 No, not the same. In Hesse we don’t have special classes to attend grammar school, the cilds are in the regular classes, in few lessons supported by the help of a teacher for integration. They have some special lessons, too. Additional German lessons, e.g.
Your hair looks fantastic, Sarah!
Haha thank you! I changed hair products and I actually really don’t like the ones I bought! 🤣
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife :(
As others said only in Bavaria the pressure in elementary school is that high. In the northern area it is also just a recommendation based on the pupils performance. This said I had two girls in my forth year elementary class who immigrated here from Russia. They had no prior knowledge of German. One came a bit earlier here than the other and managed to get the recommendation. The other only had very basic knowledge of the language by the time the teachers had to give the recommendation. She was very intelligent but because of her grades she "only" got the recommendation for Gesamtschule. We had a great class teacher and he went home to visit the parents to persuade them to let their daughter attend Gymnasium still. They were very reluctant at first but then decided to follow his advice. She actually was best in class of our year at the Abitur and the parents were so greatful to the teacher that they went to visit him these 9 years later to thank him. The other girl had a good 2er Abitur as well.
My goodness, what a journey after such a short time in a foreign country and in the middle of a pandemic ! I admire how well you have dived into the complicated German school system. Now you better don't move anywhere outside of Bavaria because the insane fact is that every state has it's own school system and many are not compatible ( which sucks!).
Yes, Bavaria is known for having very strict schools and if in addition to that a principle has the Bavarian ultra conservative mind set to keep his school 'the old way' you hardly have a chance to get in there - I guess your kids might consider themselves lucky not to be connected with that particular school.
Kevin, my heart flew in your direction when I heard you say how much it upset you that immigrant kids don't get a chance to even try at some Gymnasien. As if immigrant children couldn't be as intelligent as German children !
Have I mentioned that you are an AMAZING family ? No? Well, you definitely are. I love how you want your kids to be intellectually supported as well as possible and at the same time discover and experience their own possibilities and curiosity and just LIFE.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us in such a beautiful way .
Just a year of school, training and patience would have lead them on the same way.
Well, it was never about the question whether immigrants' children are supposedly not as intelligent as German children....It was clearly mentioned that one of the teachers had strongly supported the idea of one of the kids going to Gymnasium early on. But the principal was against it. And this principal certainly should have explained all the details in English, not in German. And exceptions to the rule should always be possible. But maybe his concerns were more about the question of whether the kids were able to learn a 2nd foreign language sufficiently which will be taught in German, and also possibly needing more time in general to learn German really well and adjust to Germany. However, I think it's great that both kids can go to a gymnasium now.
@@saba6502 yes, there was a lot lost in translation. But the parents are content now. They got what they wanted.
We just love your comments, Grandma K! You have such widsom and empathy, we appreciate your kind words on each video and thank you for always understanding. We appreciate you!
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife oh, how lovely, thank you !
Chapeau! It's not easy getting your kids into the right school as a German, let alone as foreigners. The first principal you talked to, must have been really old school and not very flexible, a real stickler with questionable opinions about immigrants not being able to go to a Gymnasium. Count your blessings, that you couldn't get your boys into that school. I can imagine, how stressful this was for you guys. Also, from what I hear, Bavaria's Abiturpruefungen are supposed to be the hardest in all of Germany. Your kids will be well educated and once they get their Abi, it is actually equivalent of 2 years in college here. I find that school work in Germany is tougher, than in the States. I gauge this from my own experience going to school in Germany, and my daughter going to school in the States. Your kids will be multi-lingual and so well informed and well rounded. Ps. I had the closed caption on during your video, and it was quite amusing to read.
Yeah the German gymnasium curriculum does seem to be much tougher than in the US.
That's interesting. I also had the impression that the first years of college in the US often cover the same topics you would deal with during your Gymnasium years in Germany. But I haven't ever been to any US school, so this was just what I gathered from people talking about college and watching US shows and so on. Very curious on what the McFalls will be telling us about this in the years to come.
The first 2 years in U.S. colleges are mostly prerequisite classes, subjects that have already been taught in German schools like Gymnasiums. Like two years of foreign language, three years of math, including algebra and geometry. Two or three years of science, including chemistry, biology, and physics, depending on what your major is.Two or three years of social studies, including world history and U.S. history, you know stuff that already should have been covered plenty in High School.
@@supernova19805 Yes, Isa is correct! German college experience is shorter and more efficient.
I'm so sorry for that experience in that first Gymnasium. Certainly those rules regarding grades you need to enter Gymnasium don't apply in many other states. In NRW everyone can go to Gymnasium, the grades doesn't matter. I'm happy it worked out well for you :))
Grayson's German pronunciation is literally perfect. XD
About refugee children.. we're talking mostly from Syria or Iraq etc, I imagine, these days. Many of them had not had the opportunity to go to school for some time, at least not regularly. So for them, it would be indeed hard to get into Gymnasium at once, the director was kinda right. Many of them have even a different script (Arabic) so they have to learn a whole new one, not just the language.
However - many former Refugee children do go to Gymnasium, at least in Austria. but it's definitely easier when you're younger or when they knew English at least, as some do a little.
But like, it is a general rule - you need a certain average to get into Gymnasium, that's how it is. We all went through that stress.
It is really difficult for migrant children to transfer to the Gymnasium in some federal states. The often poor results of the PISA study made the thought grow in the minds of some politicians that it would give much better results in the PISA study if these children were simply counted out of the results. So if these children were simply denied access to Realschulen and Gymnasien, there would be better results in the next PISA study.
Among the federal states, Bavaria is...I call it very carefully...different from the rest in many respects. And that is really not meant in a positive way.In Bavaria they say "Mia san mia" and it really just means we are we. But often people think that with this "mia san mia" nobody can do anything to us or nobody can impress us or we don't let ourselves be influenced.
Personally, I am really sorry that you had such experiences at this grammar school. It is now 2021 and third-generation migrant children are often still denied access to secondary schools or grammar schools. In my eyes, this is also a form of racism.
Servus by the way comes from the Latin servus which means slave or server. So saying servus was at the beginning a greeting to signal I am ready to serve you and in Bavaria it evolved to the normal way to say informally hello. 😄 the more formal one is still “Grüß Gott”.
Love learning the origins of these words!
Well i started with the Gymnasium after Grundschule and then switched to Realschule after the 6th grade. Well i have some slight physical handicaps (i can't write as fast as non handicapped children which made it hard for me to finish my tests in the given timeframe) so that school was not your normal Realschule. It was a special school for physically disabled children (many but not all in wheelchairs) but the special thing about it was that it was in partnered up with a Realschule for 'normal' children and they had a shared 'Sekundarstufe II' which is the name for the 3 extra years from 11th to 13th grade where the kids from the normal Realschule and the handicapped kids would be learning together. So in the end i got my Abitur in that school by doing these 3 years extra after finishing Realschule. They gave us extra time for our tests and exams there according to the grade of our handicaps.
Good for you that you were persistent! As a teacher from the north of Germany I wanted to let you know as so many people here already did that Bavaria has the highest standards and also always gets the best results in exams.
In Lower Saxony for example you can send your child to any school you want to after grade 4, also you can still do your Abitur after finishing Realschule or switch between schools in grades 5 to 9.
I see advantages and disadvantages in the Bavarian system but one thought that I have not seen yet: The "Empfehlung" at the end of year 4 also puts a lot of stress on the teachers and causes problems and tensions between them and the parents/students.
I have been told by teachers at my boys` gymnasium that they would not be able to do their Abitur because of the fact that they lived in the US for 6 years and screwed up the articles in German. Meanwhile, the older one is in grade 12 and absolutely thriving. Perhaps that gives you some hope;-)
We just returned from Chiemsee and my boys saw on the internet that some of you caught Covid. Hope you are doing fine!
Vielen Dank Ihr zauberhaften, liebevollen Ausländer-Eltern!
Das habt Ihr alles wieder wunderbar spannend vorgetragen und gut erklärt, so daß man richtig mit Euch mitfiebert und sehr gespannt ist, wie es weiter gehen wird!
Ihr könnte dem ersten Gymnasium und seinem strengen Direktor wirklich dankbar sein, daß er Euch verschreckt und abgewiesen hat, weil Ihr dadurch auf ein sehr viel besseres Gymnasium gekommen seid.
Das passende deutsche Sprichwort dazu sagt:
"Man kann aus jeder der Not eine Tugend machen und aus dem Nachteil auch immer einen Vorteil ziehen!"
Oh God what a struggle! And this principal was not really helpful at all. I'm sorry for that. I'm glad it all worked out nonetheless :) Good luck to you all
It did work out, even though it was a headache! Haha but it’s okay. We just had to find the right school.
OMG, what a ride. I don't think I ever appreciated how much trouble it is to get kids into the school that is suited for them, and to do so in a specific city, within the local school system available to you, and with those inflexible individuals that happen to be gatekeepers along the way. I arrived in Germany as a child (from Namibia), and was placed into 6th grade at our local school in Mainz, which was a Gesamtschule, because the Gymnasium that my parents wanted to send me to, was unwilling to accept me into 6th grade. I did end up starting there in 7th grade a year later. That one year of Gesamtschule was all I ever needed, to know that Gesamtschule was in theory wonderful, because we are all so equal, and every kid can get opportunities, and so forth,...and then there was the reality of Gesamtschule. I was glad to close the door to that school experience after that one year. Worst year of my life, but then again, 6th grade often is. But I still think that Gesamtschule does not work as well in reality, as it is acclaimed to do by those that want to see it brought everywhere. Anyhow, my parents had to go through a lot to get us into our respective places, but as a child I never saw that side of it, your story was eye-opening in that regard.
Kevin's German sounds great, nice job there with the Germany pronunciation, really good. And Grayson totally sounds like a German kid anyways in those few words. Amazing. And you can also see how comfortable it has become for him to say these words. I am sure he vocabulary is still quite a mountain to climb, but it will get easier for the kids with every month that they get to be there.
I never want this series to end, it is so interesting what you are sharing, but if ever you reach that point where you are well settled, the kids are all integrated, and even you, Sarah, can finally get back to doing something for yourself, and should you choose to practice your German more intensely again, maybe there is a logopedic teacher online (there are multiple), who would also like to do a shared CZcams series with you on how to manage these pesky German short and long vowel sounds and how to practice all that. I think that might be interesting to lots of your viewers. I was surprised, that you were saying the ü so nicely, but had trouble with the 'u' in Grundschule. Most Americans struggle with the 'ü', but are able to say the 'u', as that sound does exist in English (fool, mood, etc), albeit not with the same consonant clusters, which obviously matters. Speech therapists know how sometimes just a small adjustment, like chin forward a bit, can make a huge difference in making a whole group of sounds accessible, that previously seemed out of reach.
Not sure, whether you would be willing to do something like that, but I would think that people would be interested to hear about such a journey.
Looking forward to next part, after this surprising cliff-hanger. I was not ready for the end of the video today. That half hour went by very fast. Speaks to your great video skills. Take care.
Loved your comments, Carol! And you came in 6th grade from Namibia - you so understand Gabriel's experience, then! I'm so glad it's worked out well for you. So you must already know what we're thinking - we are going to start a language series on the channel where I will be sharing my language process!!
I was in Realschule from 5th to 10th grade and went up to Gymnasium afterwards. 😉
Kevin's German still has some Swedish melody. That's sweet.
Kevin nailed it at the beginning, yours sounded more like Grünschule. Getting into Gymnasium especially in Bavaria is hard and it should be, my professors in university always complained that the students knew less nowadays than before.
Also Realschule doesn't give you a path directly to university.
It does. You do a Fachoberschule where you gain Fachabitur and then go to university to study your desired subject. It just hast to fit a certain field of study. If you learned a second language you could even unrestrain the field of study. Pretty straight forward it could even be faster than the Gymnasium route.
@@emilwandel Fachoberschule is another school not directly the Abschluss you get at Realschule, with the Realalschulabschluss aka mittlerer Reife you only can get into vocational school.
This is bs...Bavaria is not better ....it is just a snobbish try to seperate the VIP kids from the workers kids...perhaps your kids will be studying in NRW in 10 years ...at the RWTH in Aachen...or in Cologne, or in Bochum..at least I would suggest that they study in Germany ..no tuition and often better than the Ivy League undergratuate...at Bonn University 2 Fields Medal Winners....the NASA rehearsed their most dangerous flight in Aachen....Biontech Founders studied in Germany ...with no tuition...so in way Bavaria is like the snobbish Ivy League Colleges ...not really better but all about marketing
Professors (and I was one for 20 years) always like to complain that students know less than before. Ha! But perhaps that is true, i dont know.
@@tillm2481 Bavaeia and Saxony are the two states which are always leaders in the PISA study and other comperable studires of the education system within in Europe and Germany. This year Saxony was first than Bavaria and than Thuringia
One of the reasons why it is complicated might be that you are in the countryside. Cityschools are much more diverse, a lot more children come from immigrant families. And sometimes you just have to be persistent and insist that they give the child a chance. The Schulleiter who told you that immigrants can not go to gymnasium is in my opionion a racist. You should complain about him at the Kultusministerium. He abused his power and gave you wrong informations.
Good points! I think a good lesson for other immigrants is that it’s easier to get integrated in a city, rather than the countryside. But the cities are much more expensive, so that’s an issue…
@@MyMerryMessyGermanLife integration happened always on countryside as neighbours know each other. Foreigners live also everywhere, it's a prejudice. My neighbours, 150 people village, are from former Yougoslavia and China. There was a lot lost in translation in that discussion, I think.
Well, that might be or not. We have not been there. To me it sounds more like he is a guy who just likes to do things according to the book and had no interest in being helpful given the somewhat difficult circumstances explained in the video. It's just that attitude "I don't have to take kids who are not meeting all the requirements, so I won't. Period. There are other options for them."
Even though you gave the ending away, this might have been your most tense video so far. You could really feel that you were in that topic with all your soul and heart.
I don't know if it is because I grew up in NRW or because that's more than 3 decades ago, but I think I had to do an IQ test to qualify for the gymnasium. But if you go to realschule you have pretty much the same chances. It might just get more tense at the end. Because in my Gymnasium there hasn't been any "Informatikunterricht", I switched school for the Abitur and went to a "Berufskolleg", which is a school where you do the Abitur at the same time as a job education (this can be a Fachabitur, but doesnt have to be). While we were like 25 people in the class, next to me there were only 2 others coming from a Gymnasium. All the others came from Realschule, which was a bit of a clash of standards. Basically the education of the majority was dictating the pace, so for me suddenly school became quite easy. Doesnt mean I got great grades because I also got lazy, but I could have! ;)
Btw: I don't know whether this is still the case (and of course, Differences in Bundesländern), but Realschule didn't require 2 foreign languages, while Gymnasium does. Abitur also requires 2. As I already leant Latin on the Gymnasium for 4 years or so (next to english), I didnt need to take an additional language and the only languages I had during Abitur were German and English. People from the Realschule (and I think only those who didnt learn french before) had to take French during Abitur (which ofc is an additional burden).
Hope that brought a bit of insight ^^
Looking forward to your next video!
You are good at picking up other people’s energies, because you’re right, this was our most tense video! The process to get our boys into gymnasium has been very emotional. Whew, glad it’s behind us now!
You can ALL be so proud of yourself!
The school System is working. I went with Realschule to (gymnasium + a profession ) next then went into university and now I‘m self employed. And for me I would not change that because I needed more time to unterstand learning in my childhood.
I had a lot of friends where the parents pushed them into gymnasium but they didn’t perform there and so they dropped to Realschule and most of them later also did go to university. So don’t stress you kids and listen to the teachers they are doing this for years 😊
You are doing so great. I wish you all the best of luck for the future. What I don't understand: Why couldn't this principal of the first school speak to you in English? Why did he let you negotiate such an important matter in your not yet so good German? He himself should have a first-class education and, at least in his position, one can expect that he speaks fluent English, which all children in Germany learn from the 5th grade.
I dont know why. That is a good question. In any case I always try to speak German first. I dont want to impose on other people!
There are many "under the radar" nationalist mentalities, and this is a subtle way to express that safely :-)
Doctors, educators and such never once offered to switch to English with me and I have now been here 21 years. The way I saw it was, your German was good enough for them to understand and of course had you not known how to say something in German and therefore threw in an English word/sentence, they would have understood or asked for clarification. This means you were doing fine in German/Germany. Ok it is not relaxing and in fact adds additional stress on you. However it proves you are doing great and they were encouraging you to continue to improve your German skills. Imagine everyone immediately switched to English. We immigrants/ex pats would never advance but always take the path of least resistance.
At least I try to see the positive here.
I got a recommendation for Hauptschule and my aunt talked my parents to sent me to Realschule, so my paretns talked my headteacher into letting me in. There I learnt much about responsiblity, punctoality and self organasation. Also in the last two I had my head teacher in social studies and I think he was now pleased with me being there. Afterwards I also went to a Gymnasium.
But what I really hold these schools in high regards for was their honesty and openess. If there was a thrashhold, where you could switch school gears, they told us and not only our parents and also what was requiered to make the change to go to the moe academic school. Also if a student had trouble they said: listen you can go to the less academic one for two years and then come back. Further at the Gymnasium the teachers directly pulled the plug for any snarky remarks after we got there. They told their established students straight, which topics we might be better at and that the former Realschüler would make most likely (and it was true) the solid middle field of the year. When I was in my last year one student switched after tenth grade Hauptschule directly into the last three years of Gymnasium, but that is very rare.
The diagramm around 4:59 does even lag the secondary pathes... if you went to Realschule for instance, you can still do after your 10th grade a Berufsbildendes Gymnasium, which can give you full "Abitur" too. (depending on the number of languages you are going to take)
And if you put all the different Berufsbildende Gymnasiums on it too, it would never be displayable on your diagram ;).
Just a few:
- Technisches Gymnasium (TG)
- Wirtschaftliches Gymnasim (WG)
- Ernährungswissenschaftliches Gymnasium (EG)
- Informationstechnisches Gymnasium (ITG)
... and that is just the tip of the ice berg and only the once you can find close to everywhere ;).
There are a lot of regional once on top of that based on the state you are in. The good thing: If you get a full Abitur, the Abitur is recognized in whole Germany no matter if it is done at a TG or a "normal" gymnasium.
I went to a TG, did the full Abitur and studied afterwards and it does not even make a difference time vise. After 10th grade, Realschule is in general over and than you get 2-3 years of Gymnasium on top, if you grades are good enough. (the barrieres are pretty low... I think you need to have a 2,5 on average of the "main" subjects like German, English, Math or something like that.
Okay great! Thanks fo adding this.
Some immigrants start in Mittelschule and switch to realschule as soon as their german gets better. And then they switch again to gymnasium. when i went to school, yearly, some students would leave our gymnasium and others would join our class. it's not always easy to make the switch, but it is common. - the first principal seems very narrow-minded...
Okay very good to know!
That is the way very smart immigrant children usually take, move up one school system per year. It just doesn't happen very often, that is why the first principal was against it. But he could just have granted Gabriel guest student status, , no idea why he didn't!
That happened to a close friend of mine. He came to Germany as a child in the 90s ("Russlanddeutscher"). He spent the 5th grade in the Hauptschule and once his German was good enough he moved to Gymnasium. He was even the best student in his final year (Abitur) and lectures Psychology at a University. He is fluent in 4 languages (German/Russian plus English and French). He was extremely dilligent
I lived in Germany for about eight years, and during my time there I got to know many Germans with and without higher education. One characteristic that I noticed as an American was how rank-conscious some German people are. You might consider introducing yourself as Doktor McFall in any situation where you are likely to be dealing with any level of a government bureaucracy. I know that in America we more or less go about our lives with some level of modesty about our accomplishments, but in German society, titles matter. Being a Univesity Professor in Germany carries a lot of cachet. Particularly with hocknasig (snooty) officious types like that Gymnasium Director you encountered. I mean it could really level up the playing field for you in certain situations.
I observed that patients using psychiatric services found it extremely confusing for as many of the psychologists insisted on being addressed as Dr. Many other MDT professionals had attained PHD level but never used the title except on paper. The psychologists were unable to issue prescriptions, change medication, issue sick notes for employers or social security or detain patients or rescind sections (psychiatric holds). I suppose the ultimate irony is that some medical Drs; following the psychologists’ model, might be addressed as Dr Dr, having trained as a Dr and awarded a Doctorate, that would generate a few jokes in ward round!
I wondered if dropping the "doctor" in the conversation would make a difference. I generally dont make a big deal of that but maybe i should sometimes.
@@kevinmcfall5285 Yes I think in certain transactional situations where you know you are going to be dealing with any type of bureaucrat then use your title when you first introduce yourself. Particularly with school officials because it's an academic setting. Only judging from your VLOG the way you described the situation it seemed that from the first moment the Director of the Gymnasium met you, he/she judged you. Typically they are going to act like someone who is used to holding the power in any conversation, consciously or not, they are going to be like the lord of their little fiefdom holding the power of yes and no over you. So you might notice that Germans typically say their last name and shake hands when meeting people officially and socially too. It typically isn't going to be the casual wave and hey how are you we see in America. If you append the title Doktor to your last name in certain situations try it and see how it goes. At the very least it's going to say to them I'm not some rube Ami. They might say their name first like Schmidt and stick out their hand and you mirror them and say McFall in most social situations like a neighborhood party, and reserve the use of Dr. McFall when you know that the situation might be transactional like meeting a local politician or situation where the people have some sort of profession where a higher academic degree is required. Try experimenting in certain situations and watch their expression and see if you perceive any slight change in deportment. It might surprise you. I don't hold a Doctorate but I was an officer in the Air Force so once in a while using the military title was effective in leveling things up. Even the German language you might notice is hierarchical with the Du and Sie form of address. Wie geht es Ihnen vs Wie gehts dir. You have to learn the rules of the road there lest you offend someone. Most younger people just recognize that you are not native Germans and so are tolerant of using Du but some are not and might take exception. Just to show you how rigid things used to be in this regard when I first went to Germany about 40 years ago some older married couples never called each other by their first names in public. It was always Frau Schmidt or Herr Schmidt when they addressed each other. I mean that was really old school.
Okay: but overall germans of all type or levels of education overall are more knowledgeable and educated.
Just listening and realized that I needed some Americans to get an explanation what a Mittelschule is 😁thanks a lot
As a German and teacher for German language I have to say that Graysons pronounciation is just so so fabulous!!! =) His r, double tt and t at the end sounds are so perfect and really un-American! :D
Bavaria (and Saxony) has the best educational system in Germany in terms of the performances of the pupils. And that is why they probably also have the strictest rules there. In Northern Germany and traditional Social Democratic Bundesländer schools shall be easier and the switching between the different types of schools should be easier, too. But the results in comparing tests there are worse than particularly in Bavaria.
Perhaps that's the main reason they wanted to avoid to send your kids to a Gymnasium. :(
It is only good on paper! In reality it is the worst! The way they are forced to learn is bullshit. Force everything in and puke it on the test. Forgotten the minute the test is over!
But the teachers still think it's great. That's typical for German hybris.
"Bavaria (and Saxony) ..."
Yep, Germans all over the world are really amazed about our "Taliban"-states (most fundamentalistic conservative states) AKA "Freistaaten", most famous for their xenophobic standings. Priceless.
Yeah that makes total sense. They knew that they have a tough curriculum and they didn't want to see our kids struggle and fail, which is good! We don't want them to struggle, either.
@@1Naenie1 it's the same in the USA - learn for the test. I think all of the educational systems should be rethought and reimagined!
Really insightful reflections of your experiences, I’m sure that this will be really helpful to other parents in a similar situation. I was really shocked to hear that principal 3 talked to principal 1 about his discussion with you. That seems really unprofessional and quite possibly a violation of the confidentiality of the personal information that you exchanged with Nr. 1. Considering that you live in rural southern Bavaria, it sounds like principal 1 was simply prejudiced against foreigners, and it sounds very much like principal 3 was more interested in maintaining a united front with his colleague than forming his own opinion (I suspect that both principals are male). I applaud your patience and ability to keep a positive outlook; I would be getting a bit hot under the collar.
Your pronunciation of Grundschule improved during the course of the video. 😉👍🏼 Your mispronounced attempts sounded like you were adding an umlaut, making it sound like grün as in the color green. The “green school.” 🤣
Yes I did keep adding an ü! I think after talking with Grayson, I’m finally saying it correctly. I should say it in the next video just to see! Hahaha Yeah maybe principal #1 is biased towards immigrants, or just super strict.
Found your channel via video advice from youtube and spend half my day by looking through your videos. your family is awesome and it's such a nice experience to get a view of my homecountry from people who moved here. I personal don't live in the rural area, more in the west of germany, the more industrial area of Ruhrgebiet and Niederrhein.
It's great how all of your german improves from video to video, you're doing so good! I can't wait to see how christmas time will be for americans in germany.
by the way, how did you come along with the Zeitumstellung (switching from sommertime to wintertime)? is this something you had back in the states too or is it just a european thing? :)
Thank you so much! So glad you’re enjoying our videos. We are super excited to experience Christmas here, too!
Realschulen are usually a middle way as you can switch to gymnasium or do vocational training or can do a "Fachabitur" which is a specialised Abitur to go to a "Fachhochschule" a university of APPLIED SCIENCES compared to gymnasium who have the choice to go to a Hochschule/Universität for theoretical sciences or Fachhochschule for applied sciences