Crossing the Line..? Offsiding & Straightening Bends. Motorcycle Training.
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- čas přidán 23. 01. 2024
- This video looks at using the "other" side of the road for negotiating bends.
This is an informational video and not a training video and riders should be sure for themselves before using any new techniques and get professional advice from a qualified instructor if in doubt. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Good to see you posting again. I find your commentary during videoed rides to be of great value. The explanation of why, or reasons for not taking a particular course/ position on the road are always good learning points. The problem with CZcams is it appears that anyone with a Motorbike and Camera can suddenly morph into a Motor cycle Riding Instructor and in my opinion some of them are dangerous with their advice. 👍
@johnbiddal5951 thanks John. im glad you find the videos useful. You are right, its sometimes difficult to know what to believe is accurate and safe vs what isn't. All the best, Phil
Agreed there are too many so called experts , advertising themselves as being professionals, being payed to train others but who show videos that are sometimes incorrect, out of date or downright wrong and dangerous in some of their content
Excellent video, covering all the considerations in great depth. I enjoyed watching your videos while training for my IAM Master Rider last year, and still enjoyed this today. I think it’s great that you cover advanced topics and encourage mentoring. Even as an advanced rider you can benefit a lot from mentored rides picking up tips and learning to ride with much greater precision.
There is a massive difference between 'offsiding' by a police officer or other emergency service road user and a member of the general public. Such drivers can break the law when required to do so and also as they are invariably driving or riding at speeds in excess of those that we civilians can legally do they may offside in order to remain AS SAFE AS IS POSSIBLE under the required performance of their duty.
We as civilians are limited to certain speeds which we should not drive over and if we cannot see suitably round say a bend ahead as we have too great a speed at that time then we all have the option of slowing to a more suitable speed.
WE do not always need to refer to the H.C and on this matter one can look at Police Roadcraft or the DVSA Handbook. In Roadcraft especially many things, practises and procedures that were in the original publications have over time been written out as they were considered to be unsuitable and no doubt unsuitable and unsafe for civilian consumption. Off siding being one of them. Although its still taught to the emergency services as it could be required for their own safety and the safety of others,. When Roadcraft originally came out in the 50's then we could legally do what any police officer could do as prior to the 1960's we had no speed limits on country roads thus off siding was within normal training guidelines of advanced drivers etc. . Prior to the 50 's there were many fewer vehicles to collide with on our country roads. Only 2 or 3 million in total in the UK so out on country roads off siding into the path of any oncoming horse, cart or tractor or small car was an unlikely occurrence.
Nowadays we have some 50 million vehicles on our roads so being out on our country roads we are at greater risk of meeting something head on so it would not be right or conceivable for any , road safety training organisation to support, encourage or enable off siding to civilians as of a norm .
However there are still some organisations and individual training bodies that are still doing so to the detriment of all other road users.
Great information and video as always.
Thanks👍
Welcome back! Good to see you out riding in poor conditions with (as usual) some very good points and tuition. Good reinforcing of the law and the highway code for those of us who've been around for more years than we care to remember!
Excellent video. Thanks.
Excellent food for thought.
Thoroughly informative and at the same time entertaining, excellent video which I stumbled across and I will now watch a few more of your videos. Thanks
Great video. You are 100% correct that ‘training’ without context or mentoring is harmful and potentially dangerous.
Very good and informative. As an IAM Observer I appreciate the explanations, always good to have different ways to discuss topics, you often have to try different methods to see what works for an associate.
Thanks Phil great video once again always appreciated extremely helpful
Hope you're well
Regards 😊
Thank you Tony, yes all good, hope you are too. All the best
It's great to see your videos. Only today have I signed up for some advanced rider course after doing the safety rider with Norfolk police in September last year.
It was a great course, especially when the officer said on my feedback I should go faster, but not over the limit, so I did on second ride real confidence booster was the course as so are your videos 🎉 Thanks Phil
Brilliant, thanks for your comments and glad you are enjoying some extra mentoring. I wish you well with it and safe riding. All the best
Excellent video, one of the best I've seen on Advanced Riding. I particularly liked bringing in the text from the highway code at the appropriate moments.
In my club they don't teach this technique at Advanced but cover it at Masters, although it's not something that's encouraged to be used all the time. I think the Public Perception element of SLAPP has a big bearing on this too. I've overheard others bikers saying 'be careful on this road, all the Advanced Bikers will be coming the other way riding on the wrong side of the road'. We certainly don't want to earn a reputation for being the hazard!
Thanks for your comments. Absolutely right, advanced riders being the hazard is not what we want at all!! All the best
Another greatly informative and excellently presented video, all the better that you were diverted onto single track.
More please
Many thanks
All the best
Joe
ps I posted this on my local IAM Group's forum - 'ELAM' (East London) where I am a Full member having passed my Advanced Rider Test on the 3rd December 2023.
Thank you for your comment Joe, much appreciated. Thanks too for sharing the vid. Congratulations on your advanced pass, safe riding, all the best
Where you been? Need more vids please ❤
@ricardo6861 ive been hibernating!! Thank you for your comments, I will hopefully get out more this year... all the best
Great Video, I have my IAM Masters test on Monday, and this is one of those 'Grey' area's in advanced motorcycling that creates confusion, whilst only lightly referenced (if at all) in the Police Motorcyclist Handbook, I have been told that many RoSPA and IAM Examiners, will look for you to take opportunities to Offside, and straighten bends whenever possible in order to make a Progressive ride, but again, its somewhat contradicted by the Transport Authority Guidance, a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Thank you for your comment. Good luck with the masters. Yes offsiding is an awkward area, because if it goes wrong nobody would want to endorse someone riding on the “wrong” side of the road! It’s an area to be treated with caution and balance I would suggest. Ride safe
@@MotorcyclePWRpassed with Distinction, your Video’s helped me get there 👍
Congratulations, great result. Glad the videos helped in achieving your pass . All the best,
Yea I agree when your doing the position 1, 2 and 3 on road, car drivers dont kno what ur doing. Its only if u ride a bike yourself you kno they are in full control and trying to maximize their vision/position for safety.
Where appropriate I believe I generally apply techniques consistent with how you ride in your videos.
I did research & spoke to & an exmainer re "crossing the line" before doing my advanced bike test. I was not content to put myself on offer in test without having clarity re what was deemed acceptable or otherwise.
..One source suggested offsiding was generally only appropriate such as when staying out a bit longer after an overtake & going into a left hander. Others had a more flexible stance. I chose to be relatively conservative in this regard when on test.
I suspect the shift of change may partially result from trickle down from those in advanced circles with current or recent involvement with police driver/rider training schools keen to train out operational risk(s).
The wording of Rule 127 perhaps at some variance with some historic training 😉
One gem I was given on one of my prior car courses was along the lines of......We might move over a broken line to extend a view if safe but should avoid moving into potential danger to seek a view we do not yet have.
There is arguably some benefit in being conservative in use of some techniques...Particularly if riding with others who may try to emulate in abscence of having a fuller understanding.
Thought provoking content.
Thanks 👍 🏍
@AW8UK thank you for your comments here, much appreciated. I absolutely agree with your car course gem. take care and ride safe
@@MotorcyclePWR👍 all the best 😊
In the context of the video's instruction on roads with hedges or banks,which needn't be high,I always think "is there a little MX5 sports car hidden there"
@johnwood4448 thanks for your comments John, you are wise to think this way. If i cant actually see the road surface then its "dead ground" and potentially dangerous. All the best
@@MotorcyclePWR Apologies I completely forgot to thank you for your excellent instructional videos.
Anyway a belated big thank you😊
@johnwood4448 ah no problem, many thanks, glad to be of assistance
Happy new year Phil! Good to see a video, it’s been a while!? I’ll be contacting you in a few months to go for a joint ride together… In the meantime, ride safe, Cedric.
Happy New Year Cedric. Yes I’ve been taking it easy! I hope you are well and look forward to seeing you later in the year. All the best
I did offsiding when with the IAM but it's incredibly rare I would do so any more except on single track roads. The argument for going faster seems pretty weak really. If he bend is open enough to do it you probably won't get much of an advantage without going far too fast. I will straight line a series of bends when visibility is 100% on wet, muddy roads though, as long as won't surprise or confuse other road users. I have seen advanced riders use offsiding on blind bends and nearly have head on crashes.
my guy!
i spend most my time in the lanes /single track roads, and where i sometimes get a tad worried is when i come to steep uphills such as 1:4, 1:3 with sharp 90 degree+ bends, with tall hedges or walls, (theres plenty in my riding locales). it can be pretty impossible to stay totally left & slow to a crawl and not stall, with the road often only being just over a car wide anyway, & i worry that there will be someone coming too fast in the opposite direction, so how do you approach this type of situation?. i don't think kent has much terrain like in north yorkshire lol so it's probably not a worry, but no doubt you have come across this type of thing before.
RIDE SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY. That's how you survive single track roads, look to see as far ahead as you can and always be prepared to slow and brake [ cover brakes with fingers and foot] hard if and when necessary. Use your ears as sometimes one can hear rather than see something coming like a tractor. Allow time and distance [ which are your friends ]for not only you to stop but anything coming the other way to do so also.. Braking at 20 mph is only one third of the distance as it could be at 40 mph.
Hopefully others approaching will be as careful as you and not be belting down it. One can only hope not to meet anything but at least one can avoid or mitigate the effects of such a meet. Realise that a collision at a slow speed is far less injurious than one at a higher speed. Slow and steady progress is the way. Don't be afraid to stop and check if felt necessary. I also sound my horn on a regular basis if there are visual obstructions such as canal bridges, blind bends etc. Making use of the horn can have its rewards. Hope that helps.
Safe and happy riding and take care.
@@rcraven1013 thanks for taking the time to reply. A big part of the problem is that my 125 doesn't have a lot of guts up steep twisty hills, so trying to go too slow & stalling is a worry, and i have to keep the rev's up, but as i passed my DAS last year and am getting a bigger bike with a lot more low down torque shortly, i hope it will mitigate the problem a lot, but the tip about using the horn is a good one which i'll bear in mind, makes sense really !!!. GL
@Bob-ts2tu thanks for your comments. Ive been out today and prepared a video which I hope to publish a bit later on today. Its about single track roads and hope it will help. rcraven offers some good advice in his reply to you, all the best
Thank you for the content, I have got a question and maybe this is the best place to put it. Few days ago I overtook a car which was slowing going on a central hatching with classic 30 degrees cross stripes. I was going about 40mph in a 40 mph limit and the hatch had broken lines so strictly you can if needed. In all honesty I think surely I should not have moved on that part of the road, I could have simply slowed. But I did it. Problem is, the council had overpainted several times and those cross stripes were really raised, like close to an inch. My bike started swinging left right at an incredible frequency, as the wheel and handle bar was bouncing and swinging each time was hitting a next stripe..I managed to stay up but All mirrors were undone and unscrewed. It was so scaring and surely I will not go on central hatching at that speed again , but I have never known they were raised, especially being at an angle, so dangerous. Would you comment please on my nativity and give me some good tips, to remember what to do and what not. Thank you so much. I went back at night with the car to check the area and when I was going over with the car you can feel a clear vibration almost like traffic calmers but these are just central hatching.. I toook a video as well to make sure I remember
@deusexmachinawl thank you for your comments here. Interesting and no doubt of some use to other riders. So from my perspective from your account, I dont see a problem with you passing a slower vehicle on the hatchings. I have done it, many others have done it. But, as you have found, many highway engineering areas are not that motorcycle friendly. I would suggest a report to your highways responsible for that area of road because it sounds potentially dangerous to 2 wheelers. Raised paint is often an issue these days due to the type of product used. But it sounds as if this is more raised than usual, and with the combination of the chevrons, which are required by regs to point in the direction of travel, it has certainly upset the balance and steering of the bike.
Your description reminds me of the old "tank slappers" we got sometimes, very scary.
So I would guess that the takeaway from this is if you plan to ride on hatchings, try to assess the paint height, whether there is debris in the hatched area, whether the road is wet, and a consideration of your speed. It sounds as though you did a good job to keep control in difficult circumstances and didnt "fight" the bike, but allowed it to gradually recover. Sudden braking or chopping the throttle shut would have likely made it worse.
When overtaking on hatchings, where possible I have sometimes allowed the bike to pass over the hatchings onto the unpainted surface and then put the acceleration on. Gives less stress and more grip on the tyres. But of course that is only if the road layout permits and you dont have an issue of crossing back over the hatchings at high speed after the overtake. All part of the planning.
I hope this helps a little, all the best
@@MotorcyclePWR thank you so much, I needed those words of advice and reassurance. When we study theory we always wonder what we will do when things happened.. I had read that the motorcycle adjust herself so not to interfere too much.. but…. There you go. The strange thing is that after I was really real;y worried for the bike, never thought about myself. Strange minds..
Hi, thanks for providing this video. I am in a bit of a quandary with 2 situations as l am preparing for my test. Please clarify 1) over taking cyclists have to cross the double white line. 2) The same as the above cyclists are riding in pairs, but you have to go over Chevrons. So does this mean the overtaking should be avoided if they are just above 10 mph? 😮
Hi thanks for your questions. As regards the solid line and a cyclist this is what the Highway Code says “129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.” So if it’s faster than 10mph you can’t cross the line, but you can overtake as long as you don’t cross the line and you give the cyclist at least 1.5 meter clearance up to 30mph and more clearance above 30.
Regarding the hatched markings, the Highway Code says:”130
Areas of white diagonal stripes or chevrons painted on the road. These are to separate traffic lanes or to protect traffic turning right.
If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.
If the area is marked with chevrons and bordered by solid white lines you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency.” So legally you can pass on hatchings with a broken line if safe, but not a solid line. Hope this helps
@MotorcyclePWR Many, many thanks for clearing that up. Tremendous help 👏
You are welcome, I wish you well with your tests
I grew up riding my bicycle on single track roads with cows sheep deer passing places and the biggest hazard of all tourists. Single track coming up to a crest or corner always be on your side and prepared to stop quickly. Cause some tourist might be coming.
(When I was old enough to ride my 100cc Kawasaki or drive my mums Mini most tourist probably thought I was the biggest hazard)
I’m not an advanced driver or rider.
I can understand why a police vehicle or emergency vehicle might be wanting to travel every little bit faster it can safely when responding to something.
My observation, if I’m riding at a reasonable speed as per limits (Or just that wee bit extra for luck)
I can ride quite happily within my lane unless there is some kind of obstruction or hazard.
To my mind even though some circumstances it works out ok.
By approaching a bend on the wrong side of the road, the law is not the point. To me the point is you are taking an unnecessary risk with your life.
Being on the wrong side of the road is an additional risk. Sometime you need to take it due obstruction or hazard but you still have to give way to oncoming traffic. Not because it’s the law, If the oncoming vehicle has to brake you just took an unnecessary risk with your life.
If the oncoming vehicle doesn’t see you or miss understanding of why you are there it’s your life on the line. We all know cars don’t see us.
Confession of my sins. If Im behind some slow vehicle and I want to get past, my theory, get it over and done with ASAP and back onto my side of the road.
I got a big boxer, I twist the throttle in 6, It gets a going in PDQ. And the 5th amendment applies. So I might be back on my side of the road coming hot and hard into next bend on my side of the road.
I’m definitely not expecting to see you coming into the bend the other way on my side. Of the road. I might not be on my bike I might be in my big ass SUV. Maybe you just didn’t see me.
Like you said it’s ok sometimes if you can see far enough, But if you can see far enough why do you need to see further.
The other thought I have, is I am a creature of habit, There are something I will respond to very quickly and calmly because I have been trained to do so, I don’t have to think I act.
That’s from my other life. A trained response.
Motorcycle riding instincts can kill. So this might not make sense, Good habits practiced regularly you will most likely respond better to an emergency.
If you vary what you do, so you are not riding consistently and the chances you might misjudge or miss something are higher. So it’s back to your life.
I am not saying it’s a law problem, it’s a risk problem. As a motorcycle rider it’s your risk. If you are willing to take the risk go ahead..
And I don’t see the upside unless there is a hazard. Which is a greater risk.
If lack of vision is the hazard, perhaps you are trying to go to fast.
Perhaps it’s just because I have not been trained to do this. So I don’t get it.
Interesting. I accept there are times, it might be best. Still not something would make a habit off.
I’d also admit I have crossed the line when it wasn’t a good idea, Those were errors. I did something wrong and ended up on the wrong side of the road. It was kind of scary.
@johnmacdonald1878 hi John thank you for this write up, really interesting and useful to hear your thoughts. Much appreciated, ride safe.
It's been too long :)
Thank you for another very insightful video. I was told by my IAM observer categorically not to offside as another associate failed his advanced test for doing so. Do you know for a fact that this is the case for IAM tests? I'm also a RoSPA member and they don't seem to be so strict. After watching your video I wonder if the associate failed their test for being unsafe whilst offsiding rather than the offsiding itself. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. At the moment I'm inclined to not offside during the test as I'm unlikely to fail for not doing it...? On my own riding your approach seems to be perfectly sensible. Reg Local also agrees (czcams.com/video/YWgfQ7sW5F0/video.html). Thank you
Just wanted to issue my input as a Masters rider and National Observer - I have a slightly looser stance on offsiding than some, mostly because of how I define it and how I then tutor my associates around the issues. I personally define offsiding as using the oncoming "lane" (important to come back to) to gain a view, whereas I call using the offside when the view is already there straightlining or "technical straightlining": this is to avoid the issue of offsiding VS straightlining and where does one become another. Principal to apply is; is it Safe, is it Legal, does it Achieve something positive, can it be Perceived (perception) positively? If all are yes, do it. If not, don't bother. I get my associates to straightline when safe and sensible to do some because it aids in the stability of the bike, a major part of SSV. But when we get onto shared space single carriageways, I tell my associates this: if there's space for 2, treat the centre as a centre line. Space for 1, consider that offside position for left bends. Obviously, not every corner or situation will be the same - so long as it's part of a planned approach, it should all work out
@ruibcaable many thanks for your question. I think Reg Local explains it very well. @ItsBeenDanBefore has responded and also gives a good explanation. As regards whether IAM wants you to do it or not depends on their current criteria, which I cannot categorically advise. However, I am aware of Masters students doing it and IAM has National standards and policies so that should be countrywide.
Perhaps your observer was erring on the side of caution and maybe it was the safety or lack of necessity of offsiding that caused the associate to fail. Naturally, with such manoeuvres if in doubt leave it out is the best policy. However, from my perspective, using the "other" side of the road is fine if it is indeed Safe, Legal, Achieves something (risk vs reward) and it is not Perceived badly by others.
If a road user uses the "other" side of the road and comes into conflict with other road users, including near misses and causing others to respond in any way, then we do not have an advanced standard ride. All the best with your IAM.
A police force may offer advice on this matter of crossing the mid line and add the words 'may possibly' be committing an offence under sect 3. rather than it be an absolute which it is not. .
@rcraven1013 thank you for your comments Bob. Many are very constructive and helpful. I seem to have lost some comments you posted recently possibly a software error. One I read seemed to criticise my speed of 40mph on a road that was with good visibility for me despite the rain being heavier. You stated visibility was less. Maybe for the camera, not for the rider. As someone who has a keen sense of self preservation i can assure you that my speed was appropriate. You also mentioned a horn warning saying, “at last”. My decision to use one, as with anyone is exactly that, my decision,and I often don’t use one due to residential premises or because they are often not heard in modern insulated cars and with radios on.
I welcome your knowledge but sometimes not your tone, or certainly the way it seems to come across when read. Please remember that a lot of my students come hear to learn not to read about opinions based on camera perspective rather than actually being there. Thank you
@@MotorcyclePWR Sorry about my attitude or tone its not meant to be negative at all. About your speed on a single track and wet road. I would still consider 40 mph to be a little excessive as the braking distances on a wet road would be some 240 ft. twice that of on the dry one. As such that could be a danger on a single track road in that one needs more stopping space as one could be at any time confronted by another vehicle coming the other way. So to me and perhaps only to me 40 mph seemed a bit excessive on that road, good visibility or not. As you well know we should ride as per what we can see and also what we cant see but could reasonably expect to be on that road. Therefore we have to always expect the worst case scenario and under these circumstance means that is another vehicle approaching us at an unknown speed.
As regards to horn warning I don't even think about any annoyance to residents at that moment in time but primarily to my own safety., If it is not heard, again I never ever presume that it has, but still ride with the same degree of safety. As you say they may not be heard but at least I have made an effort to enable them to hear my apposing approach and to possibly make adjustments to their driving speed positioning etc,. If they haven't heard then still no problem. I have always assumed as said the worst case scenario and never presumed that they have heard my horn but it is still a devise that is underused and so has its place on our roads.
I enjoy you videos greatly as some of the safest ones on you tube at this moment in time.
@rcraven1013 thank you for your kind reply. I guess sometimes the written word may not always convey the true sentiment behind the writers thoughts. So I thank you for the clarification and glad you do feel the safety bias behind the videos. Of course I do not and would not profess to know it all, far from it, there is always something to learn and develop. To that end I welcome comments on the channel which help guide and develop riders, particularly new ones, to ride to be safe.
Thanks again for your interest in the channel and your observations, all the best
I'd say the police are correct, if they've seen you to prove you have been careless or inconsiderate then maybe it wasn't wise to offside. As you've shown you need to understand other road uses perception when offroading
Just to add, this is a fantastic video. Well described throughout