Don't Hate Non-Denominational Churches!
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- čas přidán 11. 05. 2023
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Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
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I’m a catholic who works at a non denom church. The Holy Spirit does move there, and the people are all doing their very best to love the Lord and to follow him. I have a lot of respect for them.
But the catholic council have already judged non catholics as anathema. This is an opportunity for deep introspection.
@@ppac300what’s the issue
@@tonywallens217 the issue is the Catholic Church deemed anathema a group who you consider as the Holy Spirit moving amongst in. You seem to say the Holy Spirit approve this non denominational group, while the Catholic Church cast them out as outsiders.
@@ppac300 They are cast out from the Catholic Church. We do not have communion with them, we do not share in the body and blood of Christ with them sacramentally. And yet the Spirit is not bound by the sacraments he has deemed necessary for his Church. So that he chooses to work in those outside the communion of the Church to impel them toward Catholic unity is his prerogative under Catholic belief. The same can be said in a sense for his movement in the lives of those who aren’t even Christian. He still moves in their lives even though they don’t acknowledge him. How much more would he move for those who are striving earnestly to know him albeit in a less than perfect way, due to their own inculpable ignorance. That at least is the way I see it and I believe it is in harmony with Catholic teaching.
Side note. I don’t know that anathemas are placed on whole groups of people regardless of their circumstances. Not sure if it refers to a ceremony directed at one in heresy or schism. In the case that it is directed at a heretic or schismatic, we are not talking about Protestants as a whole as being anathematized but only those who exit the Church on heretical grounds or those who break communion with the church on schismatic grounds. 99.9999999% of current protestants would not fall under the anathema.
@@ppac300 I think the Catholic Church can admit that the Holy Spirit can still work outside the church
The ironic thing is that Jesus' disciples were the ones viewed as simpletons in their day by mainstream religious leaders. Historically, moves of the Spirit have tended to start outside the ecclesiastical center of the church, often giving birth to new denominations, which then tend to move from low church to high church over time. I think of how the Anglicans viewed the Methodists, but what the Methodist denomination is today.
Excelente análise!
Yes, let's not forget it all started with home churches😊
@@marlena. , but the first church still met in the temple as well as in homes.
As a non-denominational Christian, thank you for this Gavin 🙏
There’s no such thing as non - denominational. It’s like saying “I’m a human without a culture”.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787to be honest i think that js the point, to mostly leave culture and focus on Christ
@@Ben94729 My point is that this is literally impossible and not God’s design. Once you join a “non-denominational” church or group, you are part of a culture and you will have beliefs, an interpretive lense, and a lived reality. This is inevitable objective reality. If you don’t attend a group at all and that’s what you mean, then you’re missing the point of the biblical call to worship with others. The real goal is not to pretend to be non-denominational (you’re not), it’s to discover the apostolic tradition and live in that reality.
If denomination’s existed which they don’t then a non denom would still be a denom. Please read my other comment. Only Catholic’s are Christian because there’s ONLY ONE CHURCH
@@thegoatofyoutube1787a non denom is still a denom IF they actually existed which they don’t. There’s ONLY ONE CHURCH now please read my other comment
God goaded me into going to church and I told him he had to pick it. He sent me to a nondenominational church and I love it. And I thank Him for it every day.
I appreciate this caution. There’s too much criticism and not enough service to assist low-church denominations as they develop. It’s why I’m pursuing my MDiv. I don’t want to just abandon these churches where God is working. I want to help them develop and bear more fruit! Less jumping ship and more ship repairing, please!
Im curious to know what you mean by "helping them develop" is there anything in particular you believe non denominational churches need more of?
@@TheFIame all churches need something. Low-church, in this case, non-denom churches, typically need to be more connected to their theological and philosophical roots in many ways.
I do. We need more history, liturgy, beauty, sacraments, and calls to repentance and good works! Just a start.
@@TheFIame Good question, I asked a similar question as well!
@@elijah5791 So I take it that you’re either Catholic or Episcopalian (Anglican)? I know of many Christian believers who, once they became an adult, moved away from the formal denomination(s) they were brought up in and began attending a non-denominational church. They told me that for the first time in their lives they were encouraged to read the Word of God on their own and to surrender their lives to Jesus Christ! Reading the New Testament and how Jesus led His ministry, it’s clear that His message was straight forward and simple.
As an Anglican I experience the opposite from Evangelicals. They are the ones who have been skeptical and condensending to my beliefs. I know not every Evangelical is like this but it definitely has been my experience.
Evangelicals are the most hostile and arrogant about their beliefs, bar none.
It’s the Anglican CULT and the evangelical CULT. Please read my other comment
I really appreciate how gracious you are gavin ortlund. Grew up in calvary chapel and Non-denominational, evangelical churches and i have since moved on and have been attending a reformed Baptist church which has been an enormous blessing.. attending this reformed Baptist church has actually been refreshing for a number of different reasons.. i have some criticisms of Non-denominational churches and calvary chapel but ultimately i thank God for those churches because the Holy Spirit has worked through those churches. I actually got saved at a calvary chapel church and served for over a decade at a good Non-denominational church.. most of my criticisms have to do with a difference of theology, practice and an illiteracy of church history..ultimately i consider them as brothers and sisters in Christ.
The scripture you pointed out in mark 9 is spot on.. that is exactly how we should all view each other.
It goes both ways. Non-denominational Christians often mock/deride the Catholic Church for its rituals, seeming rigidity, hierarchy, etc.
Indeed. Non denominational Christians in my experience tend to be the most arrogant and prideful about their beliefs.
Faithful charismatic pastors are indeed a blessing to this world.
why?
I only found God when I left my Catholic church for a non denominational church.
People are different, and have different needs. Many people find God through the structure and authority of Catholicism or other high churches. I need something different.
'Unity in the essentials, liberty in the non essentials.' This is the importance of the liberty part. And in all things, love.
God bless 🙏🏼
Please come back to the Catholic Church. Jesus is waiting for you in the Eucharist.
What are the essentials though? Do you get to decide that?
@@hildegardnessie8438 Catholics like to say that only they have a true Eucharist. But my Catholic church doesn't even offer the wine to lay people. The Lutheran church down the street gives communion in both forms to everybody. The Orthodox church also gives a commingled bread and wine. Even my non denominational church does communion with bread and wine. Why would I want a lesser form?
Plus if what I cared about was a true Eucharist I would become Orthodox. They practice Eucharist in the traditional way, and actually take care not to spill or drop a single crumb. The Catholic church but contrast just gives you the host and lets you walk off with it. It's an inferior communion in every way.
@@TheBlinkyImp You just blasphemed against Jesus Christ. Jesus is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist. The Blood is already contained in the Flesh so whether they offer the Blood of Christ is up to the discipline of the local bishop.
@@TheBlinkyImp I don't disagree with the lack of reverence given toward the Eucharist, but if THAT was the only thing you cared about, you're not looking hard enough anyway. TLM and Ordinariate mass are admittedly superior forms. But yeah, what Hildegard said r/e species. It's not lesser. And in fact, the CC actually believes that the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist. Anglicans WOULD have had it, had they kept transubstantiation.
Not here to argue, really. Just clarify. Glad you found Christ! I only wish you found God while you were a Catholic, but not everyone has access to the same opportunities. I count myself lucky.
I seems to me that some people don't want to support low church denominations because they think that while these churches may truly have the gospel, their theology is probably shaky, which can lead to some very wild interpretations of the Bible and re-create problems already addressed by older, high church denominations.
The thing is though The Holy Spirit can work individually in a person's life outside of The Church / low or high.
💯
The thing is though without the church you're missing out on something that God provides for your benefit. The church isn't just a place to meet a few people you might not otherwise in a Sunday and hear the scripture. It's a place where God opens the store houses of heaven and blesses his people. It's a place where you can be spiritually blessed by others and you can bless them.
Passing it of as a casual thing is to deny yourself a fundamental way God wants to encourage you and make you more like his son
We just need to remember to have charity for others, especially when in disagreement.
Church is a place of reverence and reflection of God's infinite mercy and love, not a place to play rock music and yell at the pastor every couple minutes. If church cannot be regarded as sacred and fundamentally Holy, then we have an issue. God demands respect; I do not see respect when I look at non denominational and Baptist church, but I instead see disrespect to the inherent sanctity of church, and an overall lack of understanding of the solemn gratitude we must show in Church.
I agree with not liking rock music, especially in a church but to call it disrespectful isn't right. Psalm 95 says Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. 2 Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song."
Glad you bring this this up. I actually used to be a bit negative and towards non-denominational Churches myself for a while, but then I realized it's nothing but prideful Pharisaism.
Wow thats rude
@mr.peanutbutter6969 yes, and not just rude, it's sinful. But that's in the past now.
It depends on the non-denominational church though. I've always considered myself non-denominational, though I don't know that I've attended one that called itself that. I can go to Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, or different evangelical churches. There seems to be a new progressive type of mega church, that has little to do w/ orthodox biblical standards and just has a lot of feel good music, w/ little substantial teaching.
@saintejeannedarc9460 I agree, it also depends on what type of denomination. There are churches I wouldn't visit myself. But it's a type of snobbery I was referring to. Roman Catholics are often like that, unfortunately. They look down on non-denominational churches, well, on all protestant churches, because they say that our communion isn't valid, and we don't have apostolic succession. Even if there is no such thing. Side note, why does the tag on your name suddenly disappear while I'm typing? It happens every now and then when I reply to a comment. I don't know why.
@@morghe321 It showed that you replied to me specifically though when the comment posted, to start w/ the side note.
Yeah, I hear you about Catholic snobbery. I find Orthodox even worse though. Some Catholics are willing to acknowledge us, while Orthodox don't even see us as having the same religion and are truly ignorant. The rare exception is someone who used to be protestant, and knew they were already Christian, and devoted to God, but felt they'd deepened their faith w/ Orthodoxy.
Our communion is valid and I always took it seriously. I admire the way Catholics cherish communion more than the average protestant. It doesn't take belief in transubstantiation, which reduces to cannibalism in my eyes, to have us cherish the sacredness of Holy Communion and the real presence in the Eucharist though. The mechanics of it, I'm content to remain a mystery, until God fully reveals all mysteries to us.
Low church Christian here, but still respect the high churches. I have come to understand how beautiful classic liturgy can be. But I keep attending the church I go to. I was saved by Jesus Christ there, and his gospel is being proclaimed like in any other church weather it’s high or low, and can feel the presence of God. It’s time for unity’s we are all one same body of Christ.
Among the Protestant denominations, the high church traditions have been taken over by Progressivism and compromised in some essentials. While low church traditions tend to have a high view of the Bible’s infallible inspiration and uphold and defend the essentials of the faith. Among Roman Catholics I have found they are not able to give you the gospel and have a poor understanding of the Bible. While a low church Protestant can cite the gospel chapter and verse.
This is my experience as well. I left a beautiful high church membership (on the vestry and all) to join a non-denom that was more faithful to scripture and lived it.
Thank you, Gavin. I would love to see more nondenominational charismatic churches adopt more sacramental practices. That would be the sweet spot!
Most of these churches do, they just don't call them sacraments. They still baptize, marry, celebrate communion, have an ordained and consecrated pastorate, etc.
And in this day and age where foundations are being destroyed, Christians need to unite as one body, in one faith, for our One Savior.
I find the terms high-church and low-church as being problematic. You may find someday that some of what may be referred to as low-church may actually be pure-church. The problem with the RCC is not that it takes away from the pure gospel of Christ but that it adds to it, and in a way that does damage to it in it’s purest sense.
Or, did the protestants just create a new understanding of the gospel with much of the former understanding removed?
Yeah that’s begging the question
I love and really miss the people pastor and my old non denominational christian church
I am a member of a low church, but still, I prefer high church. I think there is a lack of knowledge and acknowledgement of our roots, and not the other way around.
Hello! What's holding you to stay in low church? I am in similar situation.
It is mainly good doctrine that is holding me there. I'm a baptist and I think credobaptism is the way to go. Additionally, you basically cannot be Presbyterian without being a Calvinist and I'm Arminian on soteriology.
Although I prefer the church polity of Presbyterians (since it conforms to the teaching of the 4 ecumenical councils), and that they are more high church, don't depict Christ despite loving art, I would say the (very) early churches were more or less on their own in decision making, so Baptist polity is not wrong polity per se. Hope this helps :) @@bahromuzakov6545
The primacy of doctrine. It is more important to me to agree with the teachings of the church and their conformity with scripture. @@bahromuzakov6545
Amen! Thank you for all of your content. Your passion for ecumenicism is contagious.
All NT churches were low churches.
A lot of people seem to have the idea that all or most non-denom churches are charismatic. That's not really true. They just tend to be very visible. A lot of AoG churches function like they are non-denom and they often don't even promote their affiliation (which bothers me).
There are also a lot of associations that aren't denominations, per se, that do add some useful structure, pool resources, etc.
I was saved at an evening "healing" service (not at all like the chaotic charismatic expressions most people probably think of) in a little old, Episcopalian chapel built in 1844. How's that for odd combinations? I was 9 y/o and though I don't believe I ever saw the priest who prayed with me again, I never forgot his name. It wasn't even the church we attended. Around 30 years later, I moved into a small townhouse community and one of the first people I met there turned out to be his daughter. I never would have realized it if I didn't recognize her last name. There's so much more to the story...
But who knew there were Charismatic Episcopalians? At least there were in 1985. Not sure about today.
In any case, I've learned to appreciate that God has His people everywhere. I do think low church governance is the best and most Biblical model...modeled off ancient Synagogue communities. It has its downsides but I think they are more a function of our society/culture. It seems to me that high church models tend to institutionalize and prolong problems. Just my opinion but it's based on a lot of varied experiences and over 30 years of growth and sanctification.
I absolutely recognize those churches to be part of the true global church.. but I also recognize them as being Christians who need and enjoy the doctrine of milk before they can handle meat.. that is not a bad thing, the milk is definitely truth, but it is amongst the simpler ways compared to the substantive meat found in liturgical reverent worship.
So true. Some Christians have made criticism their personality trait. We need to be happy knowing that the Lord received another one
What a great take ❤
high churches are beautiful but low churches feel like home
Low Churches feel like a Pizza Hut. Protestantism is an embarassment.
I find far to much of an influence of and focus on man in high churches with all the iconography. There is far less to be distracted by in a low church.
@ArcticBlits there is no meaning in a low church. It's like saying you prefer not to have family photos on the walls. Icons are to remind us of the people who were faithful servants of Christ in the past, which is also what we want to be today. Just like the American flag reminds you of those who died for your freedom or a cross reminds you of Christ.
@@bad_covfefe While I have nothing against beautiful art work in churches, and rather enjoy them, they are distractions we don't actually need. The focus is on Christ. All we really need is the cross.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 That's not true, though. There is nothing in scripture or tradition to support this view. Every time God has ever handed down specifications for things He wanted built, it always involved great ornamentation, artwork, and beauty. He never once said "Make the temple simple, because all beauty is a distraction from me." When John saw visions of heavenly worship, He didn't see a bunch of people and the cross. He saw singing, incense, beauty, censors, and vestments.
This is the exact same kind of reasoning Puritans used to abolish birthday celebrations and holidays. It's the same reasoning ultimately adapted by atheists to remove all objective standards of beauty in the world. These Protestant traditions of men are destructive to our society and civilization.
Yes, faithful Christians can be found in both low and high Church traditions across the board. Of course, the more Church is aligned to the proper interpretations of Scripture the better. This is why proper creeds and traditions are important, even if they are not binding. Either way, God lives inside individual people's hearts, and hearts faithful to him can be found in Catholic traditions, Anglican traditions, Orthodox traditions, Pentecostal traditions, Protestant traditions, non-denominational traditions, you name it. I've SEEN Holy Spirit work through ALL of them! And that's because, once again, God lives in the hearts of peoples. Not in buildings or abstract constructs such as denominations, that I'm sure is a common subject of jokes in Heaven.
You’re right they should not simply be looked down on. However, they should not be viewed as entirely equal to Catholic or Orthodox churches since they lack the sacraments.
Where in the bible does it say the sacraments are necessary in the church?
Usually these criticisms come from people who had bad experiences growing up in a low church environment. Their criticisms say more about their own personal experience than about low church Christianity itself.
I had good experiences with great people in non-denominational churches. As i grew up a Non-denominational evangelical. But in think the issue isn’t about experience as it is in objective truth. Either there is an objective interpretation and meaning of the text of scripture or there isn’t. And i believe Dr. Ortlund’s of Mark 9:38-41 is a stretch to say that this verse than proves a branch theory of ecclesiology which is what Dr. ortlund is implying. He can make the inference, however when it comes to ecclesiology based upon the totality of scripture and early church history, it seems far unlikely that anyone held to a view that the church(body of christ) was “true believers” in different churches that held different interpretations of scripture and different doctrines, that are united, which from my understanding of scripture and church history is a stretch. I think in general people want to hold to a very loose view of ecclesiology because it brings them comfort. if people were honest with the text in Mark 9 as Dr. Ortlund is referencing they would have to contend with the fact that Nothing in this text has infers a doctrine on ecclesiology one way or the other. It also a time when Christ was still on earth no crucifixion yet , or resurrection, and pentecost( the receiving of the Holy spirit and establishing of the Church). Dr. Ortlund is trying to prove way too much with a text that the context doesn’t do.
not too mention St. Augustine, and St. theophylact doesn’t interpret it the way gavin does. So for this and many other reasons on ecclesiology i think gavin is way off base and stretching the tex to fit a protestant model of ecclesiology.
m.czcams.com/video/qTTlSkYy5Y4/video.html
@@pochomano it's already a fact of reality, affirmed by the Catholic Church, that the mystical body of Christ, ie, the collection of all those who possess sanctifying grace and are indwelt by The Holy Spirit, is indeed an invisible union of true believers, some within the confines of the Church, some outside of it.
@@taylorbarrett384 Im not Roman Catholic. Im Orthodox, and the Orthodox does not affirm a branch theory. The Orthodox Church affirms a One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church altered there own ecclesiology at Vatican 1 and 2 has no bearing on the Orthodox church, or what any of the early church fathers and saints have taught on ecclesiology. Ultimately im saying Dr. Ortlunds appeal to Mark 9 as a proof text for a protestant model and modern RCC ecclesiology is not grounded in the early church; and his interpretation of those verse goes way beyond what the text actually says.
@@pochomano and do you, as an Orthodox, deny that the collection of individuals who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit, who are forgiven and justified and adopted etc, contains people not in the Orthodox church, and excludes some within it?
High church buildings are being converted into Mosques in Europe and repurposed in other ways because those churches have died. While low church numbers are growing.
Ehh as a Catholic there's been more growth in more traditional settings, actually. Even in my church (which I don't attend as often because of my interest in tradition), I've seen church numbers steadily increase. But then again I'm Singaporean so the crisis is very much a western issue.
@@regandonohue3899 I have heard that the new growth of Christianity is occurring in the southern hemisphere whereas for the first two thousand years it has primarily had its presence in the northern hemisphere.
Low churches are based on emotional experiences. They gain members, but then the members eventually naturally lose excitement and it becomes boring, then they leave. This is especially true with the younger generations.
@@bad_covfefe do you have data showing a high defection rate among low church congregations? I have repeatedly heard reported just the opposite. High church congregations, which are typically liberal, are dying out because they aren’t getting the next generation and the hold-outs are older. While these mainline Protestant denominations are shrinking in size, evangelical churches, which are conservative in their faith are growing.
The appeal to a low church is partly experiential which is important because a religion without a relationship with God is empty ritual. People are encountering the Holy Spirit and having authentic born again experiences. The other appeal is the simple gospel message that is given, which people can understand. Another appeal is having it all grounded in scripture and not compromising on biblical truth.
From what I’ve seen it’s mostly the low church non denominations and Pentecostals who have the most fervor to go out and evangelize the lost. Not to bash the high church intellectual Christianity which I am more drawn to but I think it shows how the Holy Spirit works in different ways. Soli Deo Gloria!
Amen! A few things come to mind.
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
There is simplicity in Christ.
We should humble ourselves, as children, before God.
Praise be, Dr. Ortlund is a Continuationist. Does he recognize any ecclesial authority for documenting and authorizing miracles?
Amen, brother! The Lord wants us to love one another so the world will know we are Christians. We all must examine ourselves to see if we are right before the Lord, confess our unacknowledged sin, and then we need to share the Gospel and make disciples.
Non-denominationalism is definitely a red flag for many reasons. But of course, they can be solid churches. I have found that it really confused me when it came to doctrine. I found it extremely difficult to grow in understanding when the church goes through different pastors and they teach different things as what they see as true. It's like trying to put multiple puzzles together that have been mixed together. The church is often times at mercy to whatever doctrines the pastor believes.
Thank you for this!!
I have nothing against non-denominational churches or charismatic churches that hold to scripture. I have major issues with prosperity gospel and bethel's new age practices. I think it is something we definitely need to be aware of as a deviation from scripture. Mike Winger did a great video on Bethel and Osteen, it's a must watch.
As a protestant who was raised Baptist and attended non denom churches as well I do really struggle with the performative style of worship. It feels like the focus gets redirected and can sometimes feel irreverent in a way when it feels like a relaxed coffee shop jam session on a Sunday morning. It's just not for me and that's ok. Each branch has their own form of worship and I just need to find what fits best for my own spiritual convictions❤
Orthodoxy isn't a matter of user experience
I think the issue is everybody is their own judge. At the end of the day it is God that knows who are is. People can claim whatever they want, but ultimately God has the final authority on who is his.
Non-denominational churches preach the simple message of the gospel in a calm, casual environment. Charismatic churches are usually more lively and encourage “speaking in tongues” and most include “signs and wonders” frequently during their services. Obviously, the non-denominational and the charismatic are two different types of churches. God can use both types, though I personally prefer the former.
I attended a secular university (many years ago), not a religious seminary and I have never heard the terms, “high” and “low” churches! Does it have to do with the level of formality?? It almost sounds smug and patronizing to use the words high and low when describing churches. And why do some commenters responding to this video think that non-denom and charismatic churches need to “develop?” Don’t so-called “high” churches need to develop as well?? Please explain, thanks.
That’s a good reminder
The people in Charismatic churches love Jesus and are so dedicated. Their emphasis on the holy spirit is good for Christianity.
No
Thank you for your clear headed leveled view. I agree but don't see many reformed brothers having this view.
I just think you need to be careful with these churches, he definitely can move powerful. However the majority of non denominational and charismatic churches are following more new age beliefs and not the lord. I came from this environment and its a slippery slope and you have alot of false teachings happening there but definitely not all. We must be careful on both aspects
I'm technically Messianic ("torah observant") but on occasion attend a non denominational Evangelical church close by due extended family being the pastors. My teenage upbringing was Apostolic Reformation but it wasn't long before I left it to become Messianic. I had brief stint in Hebrew Roots but they were too exclusive, labelling anyone a heretic that didn't hold their doctrines. I live in a small town with a long Catholic history that still dominates here. My in laws are split between Catholic, Pentecostal and non denominational Evangelical. On occasion we discuss doctrinal differences but avoid heavy confrontations, acknowledging that each individual is pursuing Christ according to their own conviction.
But are they really being cast out or is it just for show? Sometimes even over the top
Too many Christians thinking they know best and not loving their brothers and sisters with different opinions. Some preachers are hellfire & brimstone & some people need that occasionally & some seem to need it all the time but whatever is your need, go where you’re being fed. Growing in faith and stature
A lot of us start there as well. 🙏
Amen amen amen!!!
You rock Pastor Gavin
two words for people who think they are in the one true church, Salvation Army. I am not a Salvationist but its pretty clear that God works through that church
Good job Gavin! 👏🏽 very balanced and good assessment. I’ve been in all those churches from low to high and even when I was Catholic and EO I always highly respected you! It’s good to see good sincere people like yourself that don’t try to smear others or criticize them at least unwarranted. You always are so cordial and respectful and kind and bring strong historical fact based arguments. You also helped me to come out of the RC and EO faiths back to truth of original Christianity without the accretions.
Amen!!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼❤️ Also, is it possible for you to make a video in the future interviewing a current Greek Orthodox priest to discuss salvation? I believe that Orthodox do not believe in the assurance of salvation and also in salvation by faith & works.
whats a low church and high church?? also im non denominational and im confused i didnt know ppl didnt like us..
Agreed sir
People are trying to say non denominational churches are a cult or evil,but I love non denominational churches, I was catholic and than I converted to a non denominational church and I loved it! The worshipping is awesome, bc people don't understand the holy spirit and they think the holy spirit is not supposed to be in the church. They think it's all lies and blasphemous. I don't believe that,bc I have an awesome relationship with Jesus and God and the holy spirit. They say we are not supposed to cast out demons,bc thats what Jesus did and we have no authority to do that. I liked being in the non denominational church, the Catholic church was driving me crazy with the getting on your knees up and down and it was hurting my knees, bc I have bad knees and I also felt like going to sleep in that church. I don't have anything against anybody that are Catholic. My mom grew up in the Catholic church and went to school in a Catholic church,she converted to a non denominational church and she also loved that church.
Can someone please explain the difference in low church and high church interpretations of Deuteronomy 23:1?
Orthodox Christianity is the best I’ve encountered after 20+ years of all kinds of Protestant and non denominational
"Whoever is not against you is for you" in Jesus' words should rightly be seen as a call not to disagree over expression of real gospel, Christian faith across the world. What's the measure? "It's" a who, and that's the real, biblical Jesus.
My disdain for my nondenominational upbringing and desire for a more intellectual and traditional form of Christianity caused me to move more towards a Reformed Baptist theology. Nonetheless I have to remember that whoever is not against us is for us
I fully agree here
I have an idea about what you mean by high and low church but could someone define this?
A lot of this empathy for low church feels related to our very modern, postwar attitude toward political tyranny, a distorted love for “democracy” or democratic ethos that leads to conservative types worshiping capitalism above God. As you can imagine I did not appreciate Gavin expressing a part of his reasoning for rejecting Catholicism was that very democratic (and if we’re being honest overtly liberal-both ends of the American spectrum are following WWII) principal. I am Protestant but not because I think everyone should get a vote. That said, I will mediate prayerfully on Mark 9:38-50. God bless.
I come from a baptist family (the kind where we used only go to church here and there and on easter) but a couple of years ago my brother got invited to his friend's nondominational church's youth group and a little while later i started going as well. Ever since then I have had my life changed around and thanks to the church! I have been blessed with a church I don't think i will ever move from (unless i move states). I like the non-denotational church because (from my experience) it feels like the one most open and non hateful church's i've been too. Like when was baptist (from my experience) there seemed to be a lot of gossip and spite for other people, whereas now at a non-denominational church it's felt like there's not that, just a place where we learn about God and how to grow as a christian, though there are some people i know at my church that are gossiply and spiteful (i pray for them about it) i dont try to let it spoil my mood about the church. Anyways thank you Gavin
Most that I know locally (including the one I attend) lean to either Word of Faith or New Apostolic Reformation.
I still watch out for name it and claim it churches churches that say you need to divide the Bible in half and separate the Old testament from the New testament. And any church that believes and work based salvation, Jesus and Satan were brothers female pastors as head of churches.
As a non-denominational, this is true. One should only be judged by their fruits, and the fruits of non-denominational churches is of spiritual movement that is crucially missing from many other large denominations.
But the other, higher Church denominations often are better at encouraging repentance, alms-giving, and reverent worship.
Let's all just give thanks for the abundance of life we receive from God through the sacrifice of Christ and guidance of the Holy Spirit
I personally call my beliefs Non-denominational yet interdenominational because I don’t adhere to a single Christian denomination, but I also fabricate my own theology from multiple denominations using pieces that I believe make sense.
American
I see a lot of trad catholics with that mentality. I try and be as charitable as possible without compromising my own faith.
Amen
What’s the difference between a denominational vs. non-denominational church other than whether they take direction from a denominational authority? I started out in an Assemblies of God church and after moving, I now attend a non-denominational charismatic church that was once Baptist so it has a Baptist “flavor” to it. Both churches teach the Word of God, worship Jesus fervently and honor the Holy Spirit to the fullest.
Can I send this to Redeemed Zoomer?
As long as it's orderly the bible is preached and teaching is good
The Biblical reference is wrongly applied. Every Christian is with us. The setting of Churches outside the one true Church is intrinsically evil. Jesus was not affirming parallel Churches.
I still encourage non-denoms to become classical Protestants. Open theism is becoming a problem in these non-denom type of churches.
The Holy Spirit is working through the LGBtQ pastor?
Low church is no church.
To be honest, I naturally tend to condescending of "high church" Christians. Of course the same lesson holds true for me too... sometimes the Holy Spirit works powerfully in those churches as well.
I used to attend nondenominational church for a season we left the tradition we were in because of immense spiritual abuse and legalism and we went to a non denominational church to heal for a year..
We're still healing but we left because of doctrinal distinctives we didn't hold to ..
Non-denom’s can totally preach the Bible. Not all do, but mine does.
In my language we don't make the distiction low church ,high church, we more say (gevestigde kerken)established churches or christian fellowship (christengemeente) , I myself attend a non charismatic/pentecostal christian assembly (vergadering ~ ecclesia). Today in the sermon the preacher preached that one of the problems between christians in comunion assemblies and in the rest of christianity is lack of love.
God Grace is at work all over the world, Ive even seen it with non Christians. Thinking someone is wrong isn't the same thing as "hating" them.
Non denominational is denominational. The whole idea of non denominational is absurd
The believing thief who died next to Jesus was a non-denominational Christian. How did you get into Heaven? The Man on the middle cross said I could come.
Every non-denominational church is its own denomination.
maybe how it should be
@@onwave Jesus established one Church.
@@fantasia55and God uses everything for his Glory. It took me a long time to come to this undedstanding, but different churches tend to serve different purposes, but all for the Glory of God. Some are very community intenisve, some are very intellectual or educational, some are very involved with the arts and praise, some are evangelistic, some are healing, some are for furthering your personal walk, and others are very child and small group focused.
What I have found that no one church or even denomination can do it all and while division and seperation has happened, it has been used by God to furher his glory.
@@alishavogel7926 You have invented your own religion. Congrats!
@@fantasia55 are you saying Romans 8:28 is false? Because all that I did was recognize the evidence of that in Christian Churches.
Jesus started one church
The Roman Catholic Church.
The unity of the Church
Is a reflection of the unity
Of the Trinity. God is one
Truth is one
The church is one.
Jesus said
Father let them be one
Jn 17
Paul said let there be NO
division among you.
1 Cor 1:10
“The CHURCH is the ground and pillar of TRUTH”
1 Tim 3:15
“If your brother won’t listen to the CHURCH
treat him as an outsider.”
Mt 18:17
Me too
Nowt wrong with being low or high church. Both can glorify Gid.
Being negative and condescending isn't that glorifying to God though
"hey it's pope Gav again
I have an incomplete opinion here, but it seems to me that 1) if we are all wired slightly differently, which we could describe as differences in personalities or temperment, and 2) the body of Christ is not made up of people with all the same giftings, but rather together we are to challenge and learn from those different than us, then 3) it would make sense that God is present in churches different than the one's an individual may identify closer with depending on their personality and temperment.
My problem with them overall is the fear of going into anything with depth. Why did Jesus die? Why do baptize? Why do we believe in substationary atonement? So on and so forth. I almost feel like they should push away some of there more knowledgeable young people to other denominations that would help them in there walk with Christ. Also heresy's are so common at the those churches. While there are some good non denominational churches, they tend to have a poor model for growing in the faith.
In my experience most spiritually grown up christians come from these low churches while most orthodox, catholic and lutherans are only nominal and almost totally non religious
@@gabrielgabriel5177You nailed it. The high churches often produce in them members who can’t tell you what the gospel is, who have compromised in the essentials of the faith, and lack power in their walk with God. Low churches disciple their people often better and there is a zeal for the Lord that is absent among the high churched people. The high churches have gone progressive.
@@gabrielgabriel5177 what do you think of Presbyterians? They are still high church and have some of the deepest theology? I myself am a reformed baptist and still prefer a more presbyterian style reformed baptist service rather then the more casual non denominational inspired service.
@@Jondoe_04 well these are just my opinions and i have no authority to claim i would know better then others. actually i am not familiar with presbyterians. I am not from america and i think we dont have them in our country. I am mostly familiar with pentecostal, orthodox and lutheran churches and some other low churches. I was living abroad also and there i met with american baptists. They were good christians but to be honest i think they lack something very important that you can find from pentecostal churches. I mean the faith can not be only in head and it cannot be only rational thinking. Spiritual world is real and God is spirit so we should be connected to him more than just rationally.
And i am not saying that orthodox or catholic churches are bad. BUT most of their members dont even know about their faith are they are not truly orthodox or catholic. I love orthodox church and i am orthodx myself but i still truly believe there are good christians in all churches
@@gabrielgabriel5177 I believe there are good Christians in all denomination too but some congregate more then others. From my experience pentecostal and non denominational churches tend to have the most shallow theology of the bunch of the protestant branch. Also baptists are one of the broadest form of denomination of the bunch. In fact most consider non denominational as just baptist with no confession of faith. But here's the thing we are called to be orderly we are not called to be without structure and with so many false prophecy, outburst in tongues, anti biblical teachings in most pentecostal and non denominational churches, I do tend to have a problem with them due to there over lack of knowledge in the scriptures. Since they do not know the scriptures intimately enough they tend to go after a lot of false doctrine.
We should not even judge atheists! A kind hearted atheist is more pleasing to God than a disrespectful and judgemental Christian who does not love all people! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Sorry,, what is a 'low' and 'high' church?
I grew up nondenominational and became Catholic this last Easter. I felt very well prepared to embrace high liturgy coming up from the low church. Praise God in both contexts.
Amen 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻✝️✝️✝️
Glad to hear this...been in that condescending place...theology may be good but couldn't take the attitude..had to leave.
A good chunk of non-denominational churches simply end up unfaithful to Scripture.
Many of these lack sound teaching, resulting not only in false teaching, like ordination of women's Elders, but also a lack of good fruits because there is often no strong theology regarding the sacraments, soteriology ecclesiology etc, which results in theological chaos.
You're like a ship on the sea with no guidance, just pulled by the waves and winds.
At least, that's how it is where I am from in Europe.
I prefer much more the distinctive denominations like Reformed, Lutheran, Evangelicals etc, which have strong theology and then extend charity to one another in love while disagreeing and debating the issues.
I think this way falls much better in line John 13:34-35.
Someone please explain non denominational church meaning to me❤
a religious group that has slightly different beliefs from other groups that share the same religion. Non denominational isn't catholic, Baptist, anglican. They still preach the gospel, but they don't do the 'traditions" like other denominations