Why Bike Parts are Disappearing
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2023
- An uncut conversation with Grant Petersen about keeping mechanical bike parts alive.
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The sound of the chain settling into a cog is so satisfying.
I was a bicycle mechanic in the 80s, I remember when Indexed shifting first hit and how I despised Shimano. We used to mix and match parts from all the suppliers, bullhorn bars with barcon shifters driving a campy derailleur over a suntour freewheel spun on a Bullseye or Mavic hub. It was the barnstorming days....
And everyone's bike a little different! Nobody's bike was an industry clone.
I own the original SIS gruppo. I'm looking for another for an old bike I'm restoring.
Dura Ace 7400. It still works great! Probably the best shifting of all time. Downtube shifters, shortest possible cables and 6" of derailleur housing.
Still shifts as well as modern DI2, and it's paid for!
Once you've learned how to friction shift well, indexing is only advantageous in racing and very rough terrain. Otherwise it's just a crutch.
What actually made the biggest difference in shifting wasn't the clicky bits though. It was improved chains, pinned and ramped gears and the slant parallelogram derailleur. These are the technology that allows shifting fast under load.
The difference between 7400 and my old Campy was astounding. Like night and day.
Yep, Shimano Light Action I think they called it. You could turn it off.
@@CarnivoreDMD Yup, that friction option gives you the ability to run any 5-10 speed freewheel or cassette. Which is a literal game changer on long tours out in the middle of nowhere. Even If you bend your derailleur hanger, simply readjust the limits so the wheel won't eat the chain& derailleur. There's no indexing so the shifter just pulls cable and does its thing.
I've been modifying several old Sun Tour thumb shifters to fit underneath my brake hoods, in the hooks of the h'bars. It's perfect for me because I mostly ride in the hooks.
Brifters may be 'convenient', but they're job security for mechanics like me. 🤑🤑🤑InFernal routing often requires a fishing license and everything is proprietary besides possibly, chain and cassette. The newest high end stuff is completely proprietary.
We service or replace brifters frequently and they can possibly be damaged from a merely innocent little crash.
I just replaced 2 Dura Ace DI2 hydro brifters for a customer after such a little crash. Aero integrated routing, through the stem and h'bars. Cutting the brake lines and Bleeding of the brake system. Each shifter cost over $550 each. $100-200 (depending or maybe even more) for the install and $40+ for bar tape. This bike was almost $1400 just for labor for the brifters, there was another $550 for a full overhaul. Near $2k just for service. This is a long frustrating DIY job, believe it or not!
Our shop is located in one of the priciest zip codes in the US and we're busy enough to schedule out 2 weeks or more almost all year. Folks who 'need' to buy overpriced stuff best look into cost in replacing the even more overpriced replacement parts.
I'm still using a RSX group, the "cheap" version of the SIS, only one minor issue so far is that grease becomes solid in the right shifter and it needs to be cleaned every few years, else it would not shift correctly, at least in the winter... @@rollinrat4850
Grant Peterson has been proven right over and over and over again. Plus he's a damn good writer and sells really cool and high quality stuff. The man was popularizing gravel bikes while the rest of the bike world was still on 120psi 700x21c.
Gimme the 120 psi 21C on a comfortable frame over gravel bike anyday. I bike road 99% of the time. Gravel is great, but it's not the be all, I don't see the point why it's being pushed so hard when frankly majority of cyclists I know do not gravel.
@@zypang1447it seems like you have a good insight on this topic.
Could you share some of your ideas on this topic?
"What else are there but knives and cameras?" - I love this Grant quote!
Tractors, chainsaws and fishing reels...
Grant, the tortured artist of bicycling! Thanks for presenting this Russ.
I loved that during the whole hour Grant’s fidget was a ratchet shifter, you could hear it throughout. This is making me want to dig out my rapid rise XTR derailleur from the 90s!
I just picked up Rivendell Roadini with downtube friction shifters this spring. Best bike I ever owned. Super comfortable, bombproof and looks like a work of art. I ride 10K miles per year, so comfort and reliability is more important to me than raw speed. It is very satisfying to feel the cable changing gear with your finger. It also seems quieter. Shimano indexed shifters can trim the front derailleur up to a point. But it still rubs a bit in some gear combinations. With friction shifters you can trim the front derailleur in any gear combination. Shimano road shifters have a tendency to chew up cables. Cable on friction shifter will last years. I really appreciate that there are still bike manufacturer's like Rivendell that produce simple bikes with friction shifting, wide tires and rim brakes.
thank you
Shimano and SRAM are just adding complication for marketing reasons because the dopes that buy their stuff are only interested in the latest trends and having the latest stuff, regardless of whether the latest stuff is actually any better that what went before. The single most appealing thing about a bicycle to me, is it's simplicity - which brings with it innate efficiency and durability. These properties are being eroded..
Yes, I’m a bike nerd but if you watched the video Russ put out for an overpriced bar end ratchet friction shifter …. just in case you are in need due to swapping out your drivetrain components like most do so less than changing tires…so there’s that. ✌️
I just replaced an Ultegra DI2 hydro right shifter for one of my customers. He tried to bleed it himself and blew out the master cylinder. Look up how much just the right lever only costs. Guess how much all the service cost to install that?
Brifters, (whether mechanical, electronic or hydraulic) are generally like clockwork inside. They're not very serviceable. Even an mtb trigger shifter isnt exactly a simple mechanism. Not as simple as a friction or ratchet shifter. Not by a long shot.
In a hard use and dirty environment, where crashing is fairly likely or maybe even inevitable, that mechanism, often ignored, is prone to wear and or damage. Even in an innocent little accident or a mere get-off.
This is not the first time I've done these shifter replacements. Even on average enthusiast, normal used road bikes, brifters wear out after maybe 10 years at most. All those clockwork parts get dirty, wear and lose their precision over time. It's simply inevitable.
ANY shifter that Russ shows will be a killer bargain by comparison. Believe me or don't. Overly complex, overpriced junk IS my job security! 🤑🤣
In your shifting system , upgrading the shift lever alone will probably give you the best value and performance as well, compared to the derailleur etc.
Personally I've been using the same Dura Ace and Sun Tour friction bar ends or old thumbies for over 3 DECADES now. I've toured, raced muddy 'cross and mtb events. Even crashed on em. They ALL still continue to function after ALL that time. Simply amazing. I call that an incredible value!
Admittedly, Waaay back when, this old junk wasn't cheap either, but I'm STILL getting my money out of 'em!
I agree on the philosophy side of simplicity, and for that I have a single speed run of the mill parts on a steel frame and it's glorious and super enjoyable. But I also really really enjoy my road bike and my gravel / touring bike and I wouldn't want to give up indexed shifting on them. I've never personally worn out a brifter and that's good enough for me. I can get a 105, Ultegra or GRX hydro brifter for the price of Russ's friction shifter and while the friction shifter is super cool and while I'm happy that things like that are available I personally am not the customer for that...
@@pbandjosh Right on my friend! SS rocks!
Didn't realize these shifters cost that much. But I learned to friction shift back in the '60s. Good enough for me. No point in upgrading when the old junk hasn't worn out either.
I also underbike and beat all my bikes pretty hard. I won't touch plastic bikes. I used to build aerospace components out of carbon. Plastic bikes are crap in my POV. I'm a retired mechanical inspector and a machinist. Plastic bikes are just more job security.
I've been riding roadish bikes off-road since before MTBs existed. We just needed to go explore and old habits die hard.
My favorite and most used bike is a fixed gear cyclocross bike. A decades old Miyata frame. Got it for free!
Fixed off-road is more fun than should be legal! It's a real mind trip. This is something that will force you to pay attention and improve how you ride your bike in almost every aspect! The perceived difficulty is at least 1/2 mental when you think about it. But most of my friends won't even try swinging a leg over it! It's just gotta be impossible right?.....
This is the bike I use almost everyday for commuting, local trails and especially all winter slop fests and wicked brutal training. I've been riding fixed every winter for decades, since I raced on the road.
Most of this bike was very cheap or even free to build up. You can use lots of 'old junk'.
My nice derailleur bikes (with excessive gears) are saved for long epic rides in real mountains. It's a good reason that I can get 'em to last so long.
Nothing is more reliable than fixed or SS if you build them well. It's the ultimate retro grouch machine for absolute reliability.
I’ve been thinking for a while now that the newest tech bikes are just hard to fall in love with. Sure they may be light and aero and shifting is super fast but they are fragile, fussy and how can one fall for and respect the engineering of a machine or it’s components that may be “obsolete” in a few years with proprietary parts and no longer supported software? Also batteries!
Shimano 7700 and 7800 were the most durable with 7800 being the KING.
BOTH are lighter than the latest and most expensive shimano dura ace groupset.
Instantly the 25th anniversary Shimano groupset comes to my mind!
I think this and the following 10 speed groupset was the climax of Shimano tech-perfect shifting while being relatively light.
I run both of them on my 2 titanium frames for more than 2 decades now and they still work flawlessly.
Never had the need for more gears
The 9/10-speed era was the pinnacle of drivetrain design. Everything since then has just been pushing the limits of what's physically possible, often at the expense of simplicity and reliability.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!!! For those of us who will probably never make it to Walnut Ridge or have a chance for a one on one with Grant, this is like striking gold. Thank you both!
Pure gold
LOL, I think you meant Walnut Creek! I met Grant once on his book tour for "Just Ride," and I've been to the Rivendell store in Walnut Creek once and it was a very nice experience. (Great book by the way. Everybody bicyclist should read it.) He's a great guy and I really like his common-sense and practical approach to bikes. I still have index shifters on my old Salsa Casseroll and have been wanting to switch to friction for the longest time. One of these days...
If Grant isn't some kind of mad genius, he certainly has the persona down.
Being an asshole should not be a base of your personality.
Thanks Russ for setting this up, and thanks Grant for keeping the tried-and-true bike technologies available.
I'm really into Russ' idea of Shimano releasing a "Classic" groupset! That would make for some amazing builds!
They do! My 3Rensho track bike is built up with it. A similar road group would be awesome. So simple, so solid.
Agreed. And every bike would not be a clone bike.
Brilliant idea, Russ & Grant! Look at Japan's success with the Ametora movement recreating and improving vintage American workwear and popular Seiko reissues/homages of vintage watches.
Shimano did just release a MECHANICAL 12 speed 105 groupset, so there's that. Has two options: 52/36 or 50/34 and two cassette options as well: 11-32 or 11-34 to allow 1:1 pedaling fun. Best thing I like is it will fit on pre-existing 11sp setups.
friction shifting with 10-12 speed is a joy! It always falls into place. I've used bar ends with really high end Sram rear derailleurs and loved it.
Everyone laughs about 90s MTB but what this guy seems to be saying is that 90s MTB drivetrains were the ultimate, and I 100% agree: bring back 3X7 XT!
Just road it this weekend and it was perfect. Index 7 sp and friction front. You can turn off index with a switch! It shifted perfectly, no hesitation on the cassette but quick solid shifts.
Love this. Love. This. I’ve been a fan of friction shifters for over 50 years. The simple old 1960s and 70s ten speeds were not perfect, but many were beautifully made, and they still work perfectly.
I agree. My first good bike was a Nishiki International that I rode on the Bikecentenial route in the mid-70s. Not a single problem. Suntour/Dia Compe/ SR.
My everyday road bike is my 1973 Fuji Finest, and I keep up fine with everyone else who are riding their new bikes!
Enjoyed this listen, especially the "New isn't better, new is new" because I feel that way as well. I do mtb XC comps, trials and even the occasional randonneuring so I appreciate just quality, durable, reliable components vs. just putting something out to market just because. For example, I know what I get from Paul's Components is going to be consistently the same. I've never felt Paul's makes cash grab disposable item. I'm not against change but I oppose poor craftmanship.
And new is often worse, when it comes to reliability and compatibility.
I recently built up a Bridgestone MB-2 with old school Suntour components. It's a lovely ride.
I bought an MB-2 also, on ebay, but the frame was a tad too small. So I sold the frame, but kept most of the components and hung them on a Surly frame!
swish
Hey, I have been riding touring bikes since 1968. Indexed shifting is like sliced bread. Whether down tube, bar end it is just easier. But if you want to bake your own bread, slice it with a knife, I have no issue with that.
I’m much less obsessed over shifting than most bike nuts, and I am a bike nut. To me, shifting isn’t the most important aspect of a bike. But you got Grant to talk, and it’s always good to hear him talk. He’s insightful and funny, and I find him to be humane, between the lines of his sentences. He shows frustration, but I don’t think he has any disdain for those who disagree with him, and that’s a great quality.
Microshift is doing cool stuff and the price is right.
Microshift and S-Ride have surprisingly good build quality, considering they're newer and relatively unknown brands!
@@InventorZahranI think Microshift is actually made by Sunrace, who have been around forever. They’re far from the new kid on the block!
When Grant said “what else are there besides knives and cameras” I felt that. Lol
Yup!
Fishing rods and reels 😊
Pine tar soap, of course!
revolvers👍
I tossed around the idea of going 1x or 2x but I just love the range of my 3x. Chainrings are 28/38/48 and the cassette is 11-40. It’s probably way lower than a stronger rider would need ever but I’m a big dude so that low gearing just works for me.
Me too but I realized that a 2x or 3x was better for me. I bought a second bike with a 48/38/28 same as you. Not sure is low gearing, feels pretty hard for me. My other bike is a 40-30-22. On flat roads feels like I need something bigger.
WOW... what a conversation!!! Old poor builder here.... The huge cross compatibility, even more with minor mods, was so creatively empowering. And fun!
Grant is the man !
Absolutely agree at 26:50 that friction shifting is the best match for front derailleurs. I have a 30+ year old steel frame all-Campy bike with downtube shifters, it's an absolute joy to ride.
Amazing stream, super inforative and great history lesson. Grant is amazing, Russ you asked great questions, thank you both
When rebuilding my Softride Traveler for the Transamerica I upgraded EVERYTHING. It originally came with an RSX 3x7 groupset and Sun CR 18 rims. Decent for late 90a standards.
I got a Phil bb, Omega 48h rear and 36h front laced to Phil hubs with DT Alpine 3 spokes. Tektro levers with Shimano long reach calipers. 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, Continental tubes, Sugino XD600 26-36-46 crankset w/a Sram 12-36 9 sp cassette. Deore long cage rear der and a Ultegra front der along with Ultegra racheted bar-cons. Planet Bike fenders. Blackburn front rack. Planet bike rear w/denim Orlieb roller classics and handlebar bag. Found a blue Brooks B17 saddle. Wish I had a picture I could show. I did a blue/black marble w/solid blue harlequin wrap.
Rebuilt the saddle mount and fiber bar connector assemblies. The springloaded stem was still good, so I just broke it down, cleaned and reaasembled it. So, what happened? I fell in love, moved to New Zealand and sold the bike. lol They guy who bought it checks in with me once in a while. He does 3-4 1 or 2 week tours per year. Just glad it's still on rhe road. I do miss it, though.
Great conversation! I was just getting into the bike industry in the early 90's and remember all of the confusion for folks. Also a dealer of Merry Sales, and a great support of them. thanks for all of your hard work on this video; it was interesting and very informative.
I moved from Chicago to San Francisco in 1984. The first book I bought upon arrival was Grant's book Roads to Ride (Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin edition). It changed my life. I did most of the Marin rides as well as a few of the east bay rides. After a brief stint in LA in the early 2000's for my wife's Master's degree, we moved to Marin because of the roads I discovered in Grant's book. My daughter loved growing up here (although she never caught my bike riding bug, she did become an accomplished horseback rider and hiker amongst the redwoods).
During the pandemic, I converted my 1989 Merlin road bike to a fixed gear (48x18 - with thanks to White Industries and Sugino) and have ridden more miles per month (much along the Paradise Loop and in West Marin) than ever before ... all without ever worrying about the availability of derailleurs ;-) Although, I was worried when you suggested rim brakes may go away.
I did manage to source a beautiful set of Campy skeleton brakes with non-shifting levers since I am just too old to skid.
Anyhow, just a note of appreciation for Grant and the outsized impact he's had on my life and the life of my family. If my Merlin wasn't so bulletproof, I'd love to get myself a Rivendell someday. But seeing as how I had my GreaseGuard bottom bracket fully restored a couple years ago after 30+ years of service (thank you Josh at Mikes Bikes), I probably won't be in the market for a Rivendell before 2040. Hopefully, you'll still be building those works of art and sourcing proper parts by then.
Great content! I lived for decades in Walnut Creek and rode a number of bikes built by Mark Able and rode with him many times. Always had interesting interactions with Grant and crew. Great mates! Before migrating to Sydney, Australia, I ran into Grant at Shell Ridge ( a local fantastic Cycling area that I miss heaps) saunter cycling with a mate and had a great bon voyage from him. Fond memories. Cheers, Michael D.
My biggest bike inspiration started with Bridgestone to now Russ my biggest bike influence today, this could not have been a better day. Seriously, thank you for this. Although, I have a flattering critique, this could’ve been a 2-3 part very special episode to hear you both talk live about anything just anything, even fishing haha. Again, thank you.
It is super fascinating. Hearing the history of the parts are really awesome! Thanks!
Great content! Best info I have heard on you tube in a long time. Very cool
For racing, index brake lever shifting was a game changer. Being able shift while on the brake hoods or drops was a big improvement. It changed tactics too. At one time you would look to see if a person moved arm to reach a friction shifter. Then you would attack while they were moving arm to shift.
For non racing situations, friction shifting is fine and you have fewer cases of people complaining about the gears not working.
Front derailleurs are important. 1x is dumb as the chain line angles speed up chain and gear wear.
I have a folding bike that came with 1x. But it had a front derailleur mount. Because the seat tube was oversized carbon, i had trouble finding a front derailleur that would shift properly because the derailleur was pushed too far out because of the oversized tube. Luckily i had a 1990s era campy record front derailleur. I put it on with 2 chainrings and it just had a small enough profile design and movement to work.
good interview… I can totally relate… I am an old retro grouch that likes cables cantilever brakes friction shifting or single speed… Keep up the good work Russ 🌲👏🏽👏🏽
Best hour spent online...fun, informative & necessary 😊
This is great stuff. Thank you Russ and Grant.
I always learn something when I watch your videos. Thank you
Great discussion, thanks for hosting and posting. Grant mentioning the last time a production bike had friction shifters was 1986 or 87 made me think: "wait, I've been riding friction since my first purchase in 1989". Which at the time was relatively cruddy Exage groupset but the shifters still had a switch to put them in friction mode, as did the higher end thumbies at the time. Anyway, not much mention of "thumbies" per se as far as "what to horde" in the coming "componapocolypse" (more for me!) but most of the sweet vintage options can do friction and pull a lot of cable.
Love the focus on simple and reliable. Have a Soma Buena Vista I love, is super well made, and so comfortable to ride for my 62 year old carcass. Except for my travel bike (Tern BYB), it's steel frames and friction shifting all the way. Kudos for bringing this self effacing legend to give us the history and context for shifting that works every time.
Hey, I’d like to know what you think of your Tern. I had a Brompton but sold it, I’m too big for those tiny 16” wheels.
Interesting take on the industry. I haven't bought a bike from an LBS in probably 20 years; preffering the secondary market. I am still riding 7/8/9/10 speeds on my bikes. I almost feels like I need to start hoarding parts going forward.
What a breath of fresh air you are Grant. Thoroughly enjoyed this. Just one question though. What is the advantage of ratcheting friction shifters?
I have an old Sakai but I'm putting together I'm going to be putting friction shifters I have a Fuji that I've been franken steining and again, friction shifters. I've been on your channel for a couple years now and it's always exciting a lot of time to gets two technical but then I go 6 months for example, and I can go back and re-watch and understand better. Love this channel, really love the history lesson in this video
Great conversation!!
This guy is the Norm Macdonald of the bicycle industry. Dudes hilarious, looks and sounds like Norm
It is for sure. Super fascinating. This is a great great history lesson.
In 1985 and 1986 my pro racing bike for Ultra-Marathon was a custom-built steel frame/fork with Suntour Superb Pro derailers, Shimano 6 speed freewheel,(13-18), Campagnolo Super Record Crank/bottom bracket/hubs/headset/downtube friction shifters. Mavic SSC tubular rims, Modolo brakes, Cinelli bar and stem. The bike was perfect. I trained on this bike 500 miles a week and then road this bike in 1986 Race Across America. My second backup bike was a duplicate custom steel frame, but with the new Shimano index system all Dura-Ace equipped; it was total crap. Just 20 miles into the 3200 mile race the bike was dropping chains on the front and skipping gears on the back under load of climbing. There was a switch on the downtube shifter to turn off indexing but that didn't help. Not my choice having this Dura-Ace bike, but I left it to my race mechanics. All across the 3200 miles this Dura-Ace never functioned, 10 days with two bike store mechanics/owners on my team could not get it to function correctly. A total failure. Never wanted index again but forced into it with the disappearance of downtube shifters. Now I run very cheap Shimano bikes with Acera or Tourney or Alivio, these systems have functioned well for me as long as I replace rear derailleurs with worn springs. I had one try around the year 2001 with Ultegra, but huge problems again, just like the Dura-Ace. So, after 55 years of serious cycling, the bikes I use today on the road are just $300 mountain bikes I covert for road with flat bars, clip-on aero bars, bar ends, road tires, and good wheels added; the cost about $1000 when finished making the bike road worthy. These bikes are the strongest, most dependable bikes I have ever built up and ridden about 10,000 a year (don't own a car). These Chinese frames are absolutely beautifully finished and last about 25,000 miles before a frame cracks. 25,000 is all I ever get out of any manufacturer's frames, I cracked Schwinns, Specialized, Trek; all the frames come from the same place and last the same time on the road. I ride aggressive and still train at high intensity, so these frames take a beating, since I am a 6 foot body builder at 200 pounds (13% bodyfat) and skilled at pedal strokes and cadences from 80 to 120, and out of saddle sprints and climbing.
I liked the rachet friction shifters but mounted on the stem. Loved the elliptical chainrings with platform pedals, I used to have, no need for cleats.
Hi Russ, I'm down in Australia and I've experienced it myself, I have an Australian brand Touring Hybrid bike called Vivente which is part of the Gemini Bicycle brand that's been around since the 70's in Sydney, anyway my Bicycle which is the Patagonia model and is the traditional set up of drop bars with bar-end shifters, the Shimano Dura-ace 9 speed index bar end on the right for the rear cluster and the friction shift for the left for the 3 chain wheels up front. During the Covid period when supplies were impossible to get and existing stock were depleted, the Manufacturer moved his assembly factory from Sydney to Tasmania but has now gone completely away from Deraillier assemblies and have gone to the Rollhoff hub gearing with gates belt drives pretty much doubling the price of his bikes. Just the hub itself is over $2,000 so yeah that's the biggest cost in the modeling. I asked about getting replacements for the Dura-ace shifters and he said Shimano are not making them anymore......I just hope I don't snap one.
Just had a great ride on my Cannondale M800 with Pepperoni fork & Force 40 breaking! Suntour triple crank, Deore XT thumbshifters, Control Tech post & bar ends, Turbo saddle & Hyperlight copper AL bar. Felt freaking awesome after my last ride 20+ yrs ago….I found my gravel bike!
great interview, thank you.
I love friction shifters but mixmatching diverse indexed parts is amazing! its kind of a dark magic but its so satisfying when you can make something work!
for exemple my road bike is a
40teeth 1x
with a 11-36 custom made cassette, 11spd mtb cogs and spacing with only 8 cogs to avoid too much chain crossing. it works with a new 9 spd rear derailleur and an old 10 spd shimano shifter.
Got me interested in friction shifter.... I have to look it up or try it. Having not ever used them I am imagining each shift needs to be trimmed which I think would be annoying.... But I will look up more info. I love simplicity and this is mechanical simplicity... If I'm getting it. Thanks for exploring unusual subjects!
Thank you both for this great hour!
I worked at a Bridgestone dealer from 88-95 and alway thought they were great bikes.
In fact my first mtb was an early MB-2.
The Bridge Stone bikes were amazing. Well thought out good reliable parts. Their ad campaign was very cool .
Hopefully Pineapple Bob is hammering away on a Bridgestone!👍🚴
I'm pretty sure that adjusting the FD is starting to become a forgotten skill. Often it involves some slight bending and a lot of testing. But oh boy when there's no rubbing at any combination, it really feels good (not that it should be used that way, but still). And I'm talking about indexed stuff. I'm also a really big fan of cantilevers. The modulation is just great when done right.
Nice educational video covering bike part history. Way to go.
15:00 That's why I love friction shifting: because it works with everything. And, also, because I don't have to be doing the annoying little adjustments that indexed shifting requires.
I performed heresy in 1985 by putting a Suntour gruppo on a Colnago and it was amazing! I have missed that bike. The insights here are invaluable. I would comment that domestic manufacture of bike parts may become very valuable if geopolitics continue a descent towards conflict. Its a hedge, but could really leave one in the catbirds seat. The last 3 years has been a lesson in relying in global manufacturing can really bite you if there is a disruption.
The 1991 Buckler-Colnago pro team was sponsored by SunTour, i think they were the last European team to race on SunTour at the major races.
Early 90's shimano 105 through Dura Ace is amazing! I have a bike with an 1991 rx 100 deraillleur that's shifted flawlessly ... even today ... it's on my indoor trainer.
I expected to ff through this but listened to every word. Nice interview.
31:21 - “Peak Mechanical” sounds like a brand I would buy.
Great show
Garry , Raleigh NC
Great interview. Will this be available as a podcast?
A classic group set. Huret Jubilee, optional cage configurations. Simplex pushrod front. Suntour Power Ratchet shifters. Cup and cone high flange hubs with a stainless steel option, $350.00usd each. TRP RRL brake levers. Gipiemme Special cranks. Campagnolo earo seatpost. Italian bottom bracket (lefty loosy, righty tightly both sides). Did I miss anything😊
Huret Jubilee with Mafac (?) hubs and a Stronglight 49D chainset, were the thing to have. The hubs had a red oil port cover in the middle. The trick was to use short arm derailleurs in that era, because touring cage versions were invariably sluggish.
When I began mountain biking, in the early 90's, I was convinced that the rapid fire Shimano shifters were going to be significantly easier than the thumb shifters. I knew that the thumb shifters were simpler and likely more reliable, but I wanted the rapid fire. Fast forward to present day, and in my stable is a late 80's or very early 90's Rockhopper Comp with thumb shifters, and I love them. Now, these old Deore shifters sort of contradict what Grant said about friction shifting disappearing in the late 80's. The front shifter is full friction and the rear is indexed, but has a lever to switch to friction. I also owned a Shimano reel back in the early 90's too.
Historic video. Fascinating. 😊
My problem with rapid rise is it relies on a powerful spring and/or a clean cable for the downshift. In wetter areas like New England I've preferred downshifting with my own force. I would like to see are ratchet brifters.
I got an Acera from my lbs just to get me going until I found something else, and I works on my wide range 3 x 9 so perfectly that I never think about it anymore.
Knives & cameras. Love it
Just rebuilt my Specialized Tricross Comp. It's maybe 15 years old and the frame looks new. Such a good bike. I put new almost everything on it but I binned the 105 index system. So over engineered, too many components, too unnecessary. I upgraded to Dia Compe bar end friction shifters and the Ultergra drivetrain has never shifted so smoothly. It's amazing how your brain remembers, I'm old enough to have been riding before the index systems took over. It's a bit like playing a musical instrument, well a lot more simple. It's bulletproof and I had almost forgotten how good this system is.
I had a tool and die maker friend (old school training) where they knew how to run things like Bridgeports and actually manually ran it, not CAM stuff. He told me to stock up on drivetrain components because they were gonna get out-dated. I have a number of bikes from the late 80s and early 90s still performing perfectly fine because I have multiples of Deore XT and Dura-Ace component and parts. I buy lose ball bearings so I dont have to go to sealed (sealed to make them unrepairable) bearings. I build a few wheel sets but I use my old hubs as they are still great. I actually use thumb-shifters on a couple bikes, a few have rapid-fire and the road bikes have downtube shifters, its all simple stuff so I enjoy hearing this gentleman speak about that era. Very nice video, thank you.
I have sun tour alpha on one of my bikes run as friction and it is rock solid. Group set is heavy but even after 37+ years the derailleurs work reliably. Currently setting up this drive train with an 11-34 7 speed cassette and when I tested it, surprisingly it handled 7 speed just fine, and the derailleur handled 34t gear just fine. I am probably adding an extender to keep the chain tensioned.
I use friction on a time trial bike. Electronic is better, but friction comes 2nd - it's cheap. Index shifting takes too much force and because of where shifters are (front tip of steering) , they affect steering stability when you have to apply a lot of force.
That was a great interview, very entertaining and informative. And expensive because now I have to buy a Rivendell.
I have nothing against index shifting, but friction shifting is just so simple and more importantly, robust and repairable. I rode a friction shifting road bike until 2017, and I loved it. Never had a problem with shifting and never once had to adjust it in I don't even know how many years. I've been planning to get a friction shifting bike for some time now, I might even design my own shifter with the help of 3D printing.
Well I never! This was an interview I kept rewinding and watching trying to listen to the golden nuggets of information grant was giving. Well constructed, informative and bike thought provoking. Well done russ, but the ratchet turning started driving me bananas towards the end 😂. Welcome to Europe you two, it’s gonna be an awesome adventure!
Super fascinating!
Grant is such a badass.
I'm still riding my 2x10 and I love it. Trying to source shorter cranks and it's a difficult thing. Even Riv discontinued the setup I was looking for. I guess it's time to stock up.
I feel you for short cranks. Definitely had to go import. Sugino, china truyou aliexpress, or alexcycles.
why shorter cranks?
It's funny because friction shifting is before my time, so I've never used it. But I have the same feeling about setting up and maintaining my Shimano ultegra 11 speed mechanical. It's not difficult but it's a challenge. Using tools to get the indexing perfect is fun and I have purposely avoid electronic groupsets so I can keep my time in the workshop on mechanical
The Acera RD was mentioned near the end. I just put an Altus M310 (the one with oversized pulley wheels) on a 90s 7 speed MTB and it’s also excellent but not sure what max cog size would be (mine is 32) I’m thinking of using on another bike too.
I've been using an Acera for three years and it works great.
1985 Bridgestone MB-3. Butter. With Suntour Power Ratchet friction shifters.
Growing up, my parents had a pair of Peugot VTT 1985 mountain bikes with Simplex friction shifters, and these were wonderful. I rode these exclusively until about 2002, and then I bought my own first bike that had trigger shifters. It hasn't been until the last 4 years that I've gone back to friction with my gravel bike and Sunrace friction shifters. They're good, but it's cool to hear about this one that Soma and Rivendell provide, sounds way better and more refined.
I have a bunch of bikes but these days my daily driver is a 1989 Ritchey Ascent Comp I bought recently on eBay. For me bikes haven't really improved since that time. "Shimano has the best engineers but they don't ride bikes," - Tom Ritchey, around 1988.
Regardless of all this discussion, my two bikes are Shimano 11sp. It's very easy to maintain, My bike is set up with Shimano Ultegra and the durability of that groupset is phenomenal. My bike's geometry(a Steve Rex Custom) is very similar to a comparable Rivendell, but with a much shorter top tube.Grant's ideas about bigger tires was spot on, but the modern stuff is so so much better.
Im old enough! To have used a bike before indexing and used a bike with a cheap French Huret derailleur and friction shifters.......and changed the key components to the slant parallelgram Suntour derailleur and Frictionless shifters, when they were New!!
The indexing system if it's slightly off, is annoying but with a frictionless shifter a minute adjustment and all is quiet.
Bring back frictionless shifters!!! Can i buy them in the UK????
Best comparison I can think of is manual focus on a really good camera: Its a deep play for me.
I learned how to shift with friction shifters in the mid 1980’s on a Schwinn Suburban equipped with the Shimano FFS (front freewheel system). You could shift while coasting, so on long downhills I would watch the cogs as I moved the shifter. Excellent way to get the feel for shifting. I miss that bike, I commuted with it for a solid year.
Well done upgrades, very sweet 🚲
Great conversation, I know the rapid rise as "top normal" and they make a lot more sense than the standard set up
I am late to the party, but this was a great conversation with Grant, thank you :)
shimano in the 70s made in my opinion the best shifter set up. the chain never stopped moving, the ratchet gogs were on the front gearset. you could shift while coasting. nothing to break. it was awesome. have you ever seen one?
I don't dislike friction shifting but I'm a drop bar index brifter kind of guy. I have a Rivendell Roadini with 2001 Dura Ace 9 speed set up on it and its all I need in life. Its my sweet spot.
My son is howling with laughter listening to the intro & beginning of your banter back & forth at .25x playback speed. It does sound pretty funny. 😂😂😂
All kidding aside, we really enjoyed the interview!
All of my road bikes have vintage SunTour BarCons, shifting 9 or 10 speed 11-34 cassettes. YMMV, but I‘ve found that friction shifting is better with more speeds. I’ll try 11 next. I’ve a few in reserve, but I’ve never worn out a BarCon, including a set from ’76
I was curious how much of today’s great friction shifting was due to Hyperglide cassettes. So as an experiment, I put together a bike with a semi-modern $30 eight speed Shimano rear derailleur and cheap SRAM 8 speed chain. Shifting a vintage SunTour 7 speed 14-34 flat cog FW with a dirt simple non-ratcheting old SunTour DT shifter. Shifted just fine, so I kept it like that for a couple of years. Hyperglide must only be needed with indexed front shifting, which I’ve never owned.
“Retro” is a big part of the motorcycle market. I’m sure many makers of steel bikes would prefer to sell them with retro looking components, that work as well as the ugly new stuff. Because my large rings are usually 36t, I have a few of those gawd-awful looking modern FDs. On bikes where I care about looks, I shorten the cages of older FDs, so they clear the chainstays when lowered to shift the small rings.
Except for several bikes with vintage Sturmey Archer hubs, all of my cranks started out as triples. I’m old and slow, so I chuck the outer rings on my lathe and turn them into guards. My cranks are all 153mm. So I can spin a high cadence if I encounter a strong tail wind.
Campy retro-friction down tube shifters, and the Mavic friction shifters were very good. Always silky smooth upshifts.
You go Grant Petersen! Retro grouches forever!😊
Campy up till 2015 or so had friction on the front, it's amazing to have a 3x11 on a road bike.
I think that grip shift was a success as the click indexing caused more problems then it solved. I'm still a fan of a 3 ring front using grip shift as it has the same ability as old friction shifters for keeping the chain from rubbing from drastic gear use.
i still hate, and i mean hate grip shift but i give credit where it is do.
lol i also use a gripshift for the front on some of the triples i build. really does work great. for the rear though... no thanks.
What are your thoughts on singlespeed plus tire gravel bikes?
I still have bikes 🚴 from the 70 steel frames and race in the senior games with it and love the index’s shifter. I miss the sun tour derails.
I have gone back to riding a single speed steel road bike and couldn't be happier. I grew tired of ever changing standards and BS. It's just a bike after all.
Preferring friction shifting is like preferring a manual typewriter to a computer. Or...preferring film to digital for photography. I have a nice manual Olympia typewriter from 1972 and I keep it in the closet so I can cover the end of the world when it comes. The complication of the bicycle is unfortunate. Simplicity is one of the bike's most important virtues. I seldom ride a bike without indexing, but a lot of the new stuff is unnecessary.