Did Aegon's Prophecy Cause "Targaryen Madness"?
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- House Targaryen is as notorious for madness as they are for greatness, and it's undeniable that much of their actions and behaviors are baffling. But with the introduction of Aegon Targaryen's prophecy about the coming ice threat in House of the Dragon, it begs the question, were these characters truly born mad, or was there a deeper method to their madness?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
00:46 Could Aegon's Prophecy Have Driven His Family Mad?
06:12 Targaryen "Madness" That Makes Sense In Light Of Aegon's Prophecy
09:52 The Utter Fail Of Aegon's Vision
12:53 Outro
Fanart Featured In This Video:
Aegon's coronation art by Michael Komarck
Aegon & Balerion art by Clark Ocleasa
Aegon, Rhaenys, & Visenya by Amok
Maegor I by Amok
Aenys & Maegor by Hubsher
Aegon The Unworthy by Marc Simonetti
Aerys, Rhaegar, and Rhaella by chillyravenart on DeviantArt
Rhaegar vs. Robert by Tomasz Jedruzek - Zábava
My theory is that Targaryen Madness is a side effect of the Targaryen Doctrine of Exceptionalism. When they had Dragons, Targaryens could manifest their supiriority, but when the dragons died out, they lost their "divinity"and were like normal power hungry people, who couldn't manifest their "divine" supiriority. Over the years, this unfulfilled subconscious desire, transformed the Targaryens from powerful Dragonlords who conquer their desires, immitating their dragons, into normal humans paranoid by the belief that were Dragons.
I think that's a huge factor as well, I think that they were driven really intensely by this notion that they were exceptional and thus were desperate to prove how special they truly were, oftentimes with disastrous results.
Great point
@@HillsAliveYT plus surviving the doom of ones people by the most unrealistic way via a dream can change anyone
Prince Raegel Targeryen took that interpretation of what you said too literally because he killed himself by drinking wildfire thinking it will transform him into a dragon
Source: dunk and egg series
@@wolfsbanealphas617 Considering dragon dreams are very common within the Targaryen family, I don't think it would feel unrealistic to them.
As you said, Westeros survived the Long Night before, if any House would have the prophetic destiny of ending the threat of the White Walkers, its the Starks, it's literally everything their House is about tbh. I think its another example of Valyrian Superiority complex that came with the Targaryens from Old Valyria. Dragon Lords believing they are closer to Gods then Men, so of course they would think the prophecy is about them. How could it not be about them?
I think the Starks very clearly have a role to play, but ironically that role likely isn't driven by some mystical destiny. Oftentimes it seems like the downfall of the Targaryens is their isolation and superiority issues, so if the Starks wind up stopping the ice threat like their ancestor did, it will almost certainly be because they simply drop all the bullshit and rally everyone together to fight rather than their super special magical powers.
@@HillsAliveYT Oh yea that I agree with. That’s the thing with prophecy, how much of it is actually divine prophecy, and how much is just circumstance and coincidence. Quoting Kung Fu Panda of all things “One often finds their destiny on the path they choose to avoid it”, I wonder if the same applies to those who look for their destiny tend to miss it.
I think this could be a reason why Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark.
Oh my sweet summer child... You really criticizing the Targs for something you are doing with the Starks? They aren't special either. I blame GRRM for romanticizing them a lot in contrast to the Targs. In fact, the Targs seem more interesting exactly because they ain't perfect.
or just an exceptionally long winter that felt like an eternity inspiring the myth.
I'm skeptical that every Targaryen king knew about Aegon's Prophecy - it's a popular theory that Rhaenyra never told her son Aegon III about it, which would mean that with Rhaenyra's death, the secret was lost, and only rediscovered by her great-grandson Bloodraven decades later.
Or...maybe it was created by Bloodraven in the first place. It's tin-foily, but clearly GRRM is not introducing time travel simply for the "Hodor" twist, and Bloodraven being the one to send Aegon this vision and cause the entire Targaryen invasion to begin with actually seems like a plausible possibility for a twist that is worthy of something as extreme as time travel.
@@HillsAliveYT Imagine if it turns out that there are no such things as "Dragon Dreams", which only Targs of all the 40 Dragonlord families seem to have gotten, and only some of them at that, and that the whole time, it's always just Bloodraven inserting the Dreams into the head of every Targaryen to force the dynasty to the path that the Semi-Immortal Tree-Demi-God thinks is best. Daenys the Dreamer writes a whole book of prophecy, but mayhaps it was all just Bloodraven spoiling the future to her, same with the dreams of Aegon I, Viserys I, Daemon II Blackfyre, and all the kids of Maekar I, down to potentially Aerys II and Daenerys, if you count generic visions and ideas that they would become dragons. I really hate it as time travel tho, as that introduces really annoying timeloops and recursive logic sequences.
This kinda meshes well with my idea that essentially every instance of "madness" comes from "dragon dreams" and the weight of prophecy that they impart. Maester Aemon's line about how all his brothers dreamed of dragons and it killed them all seems particularly relevant. And at the end of the day, if Daenerys had failed at hatching dragons like Aegon V did, she would have been seen as just as mad as the rest of them, insert the line about "the difference between madness and greatness is the thin line of Success" or whatever here.
And the issue of success is rather relevant here, as you touch on the idea that Aegon I, at the end of the day, failed. The story (and IRL themes) seems to be suggesting that the Second Long Night will be ended by another Pact rather than a big climactic battle.
I could honestly see that happening, given the way that GRRM writes about the gods, the notion that they send visions to extra special people is much harder to believe than other people with powers sending those visions to them.
@@dr0g_Oakblood Love this, particularly the suggestion that Long Night 2.0 will be ended by a pact, rather than a "climactic battle" (though there will definitely _be_ one). Of course, the potential of a second pact has been a possibility among end-game theories for years, though I like the way you wrapped it up 🎁
@@HillsAliveYT I love this theory!!
I feel like at some point they definitely lost the "king-to-heir" prophecy pipeline. Rhaegar was probably the first Targ to find out about the prophecy in a long time; perhaps he stumbled upon it reading through old books and treatise lying around the Red Keep
Perfect topic 👌🏻
And honestly, imagining that Maegor "the Cruel" and Baelor "the Blessed" had the same driving force behind them both (aside from just the usual desire for their family to stay in power because...well, they're monarchs), is an interesting thought to mull over, for sure.
The "Targaryen Madness Gene" is a giant red herring in a larger analysis of power this series has been doing consistently. Only 15 years after the last, Targaryen King (who himself was mad btw) we have another psycho Jeoffrey on the throne. He has no Targaryen blood. The prospect of power close by is sure to make you mad if you have no idea how to handle it, seems like your only options would be to not mind seeming weak in front of people or to just be a raging lunatic I guess. If this unfit ruler who was just handed this power was never near any power ever, they'd probably just blend in with society.
Even with Rhaenyra, we never see her WANT the throne, but suddenly when now she can probably have the throne in the future, that possibility itself is bound to change her. Even if she does not want the throne, the possibility that it can be taken away from her is SURE To hurt anybody's ego, and egos are not so forgiving when only a moment ago the prospect of complete power was yours, and now it no longer is, does not matter that you didn't REALLY want it, but how dare they try to take it away? Its not about the throne, it is about a principle, and their lack of respect that deceives them into thinking that they can take the throne away from you, and they need to be TAUGHT this respect. See? It slowly creeps up on you with subtle changes. Power maximizes every single part of your desires and insecurities and lays them bare for the world to see. It's like stage fright on steroids.
Now that is a better way of seeing things than "Targaryens are crazy bro its genetic".
I definitely lean towards it being way more nurture than nature as well. Incest obviously doesn't help, but I agree that Joffrey and honestly to some extent a lot of the Lannisters exhibit "mad" behavior that seems to stem entirely from an outrageous and completely unchecked sense of entitlement.
@@HillsAliveYT Its definitely more nurture than nature when it comes to Targaryen madness, outside of very specific cases. Like with Maegor I suspect that he may have suffered under Jacobs syndrom, which is a genotype in which affected men have XYY chromosomes and which usually leads to larger than average proportions and in some patients severe issues with impulse control, emotional regulation and fertility, all of which applying to Maegor, who in generally seemed to have displayed particularily violent and cruel behavior from a very early age. Generally their history of incest seemed to have predominantly affected their general fertility, not their cognitive abilities or psychological state.
There is still the possibility that Jaime and Cersei are actually Aerys' children, which would make their incest and Joffrey's cruelty/madness extra spicy. 😂
@@inelouw The Lannisters show the dichotomy between power that is cultivated and built (Tywin) and power that people have just because of their blood (Cersei, Joffrey) and the imbalance between them (Tyrion) within a single messed up family.
Even if Tywin's kids don't have any Targaryen blood, they definitely got too close to the Targaryen power vibe. I mean knowing that the whole realm knows that you are the one running the kingdoms and that the Targaryn King is jealous of you is not something you can run away from. And a lot of that is going to bleed over into future generations poisoning them (since their power comes mostly from their nepotism and not from them cultivating it) if you don't keep your house in order (like Tywin couldn't do).
I think we have enough spice as is lol, all the things that point to Tywin not being the father are just there to feed Tywin's own negativity and his paranoia regarding Tyrion, just like how maggy the frog is to Cersei.
Well said I agree with you 👍🏻
The paradox of prophecies is that if they really are true, then it's not necessary to do anything at all to bring them about: They're going to happen anyway, so there's no need to "force the end".
But in that case, then actual prophecies themselves are not only completely unnecessary, but actively harmful, because as you point out in this video, the very existence of a prophecy causes people to do things in an attempt to fulfill them, and furthermore allows them to justify doing horrific things in the name of fulfilling them. This means that if anyone proclaims a prophecy, you really should question said prophet's motivations, because prophecies by their very nature are useless at best and actively dangerous at worst.
TL; DR - Achmaester Marwin was right about prophecies.
Yeah, this is why I like the version of prophecy that doesn't say "this thing will definitely happen", but rather "if x and y happen, then z will occur" but it isn't clear how x and y can happen together, or how they can possibly lead to z.
@@hughcaldwell1034 The very best prophecy would be, "Hey, if you keep doing cruel and oppressive things to people for the sake of your own pride and greed, bad things are going to happen!" For example, if Jahaerys I had firmly endorsed inheritance by strict primogeniture without gender preference*, then the Dance of the Dragons would have never happened, the Targaryens wouldn't have lost their dragons, and the Tragedy of Summerhall wouldn't have occurred. And arguably, Robert's Rebellion might have never happened, because Rhaegar might not have been so fixated on fulfilling prophecy without the generational trauma and survivor's guilt.
Oh, and also because the presence of dragons would mean that no such revolt could have gotten off the ground, no matter how much of a dick Rhaegar was. Plus, Elia Martell probably wouldn't have married into such a toxic family if there had been plenty of eligible female dragonriders around to marry the crown prince. Heck, the Defiance of Duskendale couldn't have happened if the Targaryens still had dragons, and that's what really tipped Aerys II over the edge into full-blown cray-cray.
*If Valyrian prophecies didn't specify gender as Maester Aemon said, I think it's likely that the original pre-slavery Valyrian Freehold didn't practice sexism, and gender bias only crept in later. That's my headcanon, and I'm sticking to it. 😉
@@astrinymris9953 I feel like its incredibly likely that sexism was not a part of original valyrian culture. Even during Aegons conquest, the dynamic of Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya seemed to be more like co-rulers with Aegon just acting as the figurehead of the three, likely due to them being aware of how sexist Andal and to a lesser extent northern culture is. I think its quite telling that the issue of inheritance and whether or not they praxtice gender neutral primogeniture is such a hugh question for the Targaryens, as it would not be for the Andal houses. I also feel like the Targaryens kinda contrast the Martells, both having their roots in a fallen essosi culture and fleeing to Westeros. The Targaryens fanatically clinged to their magical power, dragons, while comprimising on their cultural heritage and values and by doing that, they doomed themselves, both through the damage caused by the house due to inbreeding and the dance of the Dragons. The Martells went a different way: Instead of conquering, they chose synthesis with the new culture they came into contact with and for that cause, they sacrificed their religion, likely the root of their magical power, to uphold and spread their values. Dorne became more stable and stronger for it, compared to the Targaryen dynasty which fully relied on dragons.
@@shizachan8421 Yes! In 'Fire and Blood' Alysanne says that their child Daenerys should be recognized as the actual heir instead of her younger brother Aemon, and Jaehaerys blew her off, saying it didn't matter because they were going to marry each other so Daenerys would be queen anyway. Jaehaerys was a sexist jerk.
Although originally a comment about Aegon’s Prophecy, & those Targaryen’s who sought to set Westeros on the right path, to gather mankind together against the cold & the dark, this could easily be applied to Evangelical Christians, & their support of Israel at the expense of Palestinian lives.
If prophecy is true, why must we force it? If the Messiah is to come, He will come. Why must we commit evil & pay a “blood price” to force His return?
Fuck prophecy. - Jaime Lannister.
P.S. ~ I mean just look at Cersei, she’s losing her mind over prophecy.
I have no doubt GRRM agrees. I don't think they are any more real than the gods.
@@exceptionvideo 🎯
@@exceptionvideo well, the lord of light is real?
@@qwertyasdfg6145 any proof? All his 'miracles' look a lot like regular blood and fire magic.
Yet ya'll belive in Mirri's prophecy... Well... Funny how it is.
This is unrelated but Viserys’s clearly darker stubble is always so distracting to me. They should have had Paddy just shave it off or given him fake blonde facial hair. Like, I can buy into Daemon Matt Smith more just because his lack of visible eyebrows makes sense.
same he doesn't look naturally blonde at all lol
I don't think the prophecy died with the mad king and Rhaegar. Aeyrs obviously told Viserys after the battle of the Trident. Which only made him so consumed with the idea of getting back that he did... just so many things. A lost child, the burden of the world, and knowledge that he HAS to re-claim Westeros without dragons makes him make a lot more sense.
"Are people borned wicked? Or do they have wickedness thrust upon them?"
-No One Mourns the Wicked
Good Question, I think it certainly added to this Maddness. But I also believe that Aerys didn't know about Prophecy. In the Books, it looks like Rhaegar discovered that Secret by himself through the reading of his Scrolls, not because his Father told him. Furthermore, Daenerys seems to go all mad and Crazy without that Prophecy
But nonetheless, I think that in the last 2 Books someone will discover that Prophecy, most likely Sam and I think Marwyn also knows about this. But I think the most common reaction, most likely by our all favourite Northern Family and some important Lord will primarily be: That's Bonkers!
Agreed, I think it's definitely a combo of nature and nurture given that we know there are Targaryens who appear to have zero knowledge of the prophecy who still seem mad, but the prophecy makes for very interesting potential motivation for a whole lot of mad Targaryens.
I think it's entirely possible that Aegon's vision and potentially all dragon dreams are greenseers fucking with the Targaryens for their own goals.
your voice and speech patterns remind me of bernadette banner and i love it
The idea that the End of Days is coming so the physical world doesn't matter has lead to death and destruction in this world and ours
5:17
Dear God ! Imagine Aerion Brightflame knowing the prophecy ! 🤦🏻♂️
Maybe he did do he tried to become the dragon
This is great analysis! I would love to hear/see you discuss this more with others in the community.
Just discovered your channel, your work is awesome, always very interesting and pleasant to listen to. Thank you for sharing it 😊
I think the prophecy will likely be book cannon. I always wondered if there was another reason why the mad king's brother gave up his claim to the throne and joined the night's watch to be a maester. Maybe his father had shared with him the prophecy and he felt the best place he could be was manning the wall having surmised it was something to do with the long night. Just thoughts..
Youre videos are great i just binged them and saw this new upload lol. I subbed, i really hope this channel blows up. Anyways, again, great viedeo!!
Thanks! 💚
This makes me think of good kings like Jahaerys I. His reign also becomes interesting considering just how much he did to endear himself and his dynasty to the Seven Kingdoms and to make sure to have a peaceful and clear succession to the Iron Throne even after all of his sons had passed before him.
Okay seriously. You may have become my favorite asoiaf analysis page. Damn! Good work !!
This was a great look on things! I hand't thought about it!!
it is poetic that the Houses created by the Conquest (Tully & Baratheon) was eventually their Doom
Great thought process 👌🏽💯
I believe Aegon's dream is an afterthought. Targaryen's madness is inspired from the two mad kings of history, Charles VI of France and Henry VI of England (Henry was Charles grandson) and the genetical implications of inbreeding.
Aegon's prophecy has to be kept secret because it is a late add-on.
Actually it IS part of the Book cannon.
And the Prophecy IS known to one person..... SAMWEL TARLY!
Remember Master Aemon told Sam the Prophecy. and also Maester Marwin seems to know it. Who first and last time we see him is preparing to make his way towards Daenerys.
Given his nature Bloodraven probably knows it as well.
So probably Sam will tell Jon (If Melissandre does not first) and Maester Marwin will tell Daenerys
I absolutely love all your videos!
< insert that quote from the Ghiscari guy, about prophecy always biting you in the dong >
In all seriousness though, the thought of Maegor and Baelor being driven by the same motivations is a fun one.
Totes! The potential Maegor/Baelor connection is so cool because it's such a great example of the potential, radically different extremes that two people can be driven to by the same thing.
The worst part is, if this Prophecy was real and was about the destruction of Westeros.... then why didn't they share this knowledge with all of Westeros? They hoarded such crucial knowledge for themselves to ensure their own dominance.
The moment I head about Aegon's prophecy from the show, I pretty much thought it must've been one of the big reasons for Maegor's actions: If he had only been cruel and insane, he wouldn't have killed himself. His actions were partly driven by desperation, believing he was saving the world, only to realise that what he did wasn't justified, since apparently he was sterile, and what horrors he had done were for nothing.
The Madness seemed to have happened more often after the death of the Dragons. Maegor could be considered insane but not exactly in the same way as Aerys or Aerion was.
I doubt aerys knew about the prophecy. There are far too many succession crises in targaryen history for the secret to be passed clearly and clandestinely. I mean aegon III was the third son of rhaenyra and the enemy of aegon ii so its quite plausible that the secret got forgotten when rhaenyra ended up as dragon poop and aegon got poisoned.
this really mazing analysis can be very much complimented by one more key fact, to drive it home: the subject matter, is a family whose very existence in Westeros to begin with, is the result of one of it's members (Daenys the Dreamer) having a prophetic dream about the coming doom of Valyria - which enabled them to escape it in time (12 years before it happened). Meaning, that adding to all that's been said in the video also the very fact that this family has already escaped "the end of their world" once before because of a prophetic dream - and thus is very likely to take such prophetic dreams very seriously and believe them and prepper for them to manifest the way the Aenar the Exile did, very much support the theory that Aegon's prophetic dream about the coming doom to Westeros was also regarded as such by future Targaryen generations - and influenced their view of their purpose and their decision making.
I love that you refer to dragons as "lizard-nukes", it made me laugh.
I think you're right. We've seen how far people will go to make prophecies come true, even so far as to burn their own child alive. And didn't Rhaegar go from a book nerd, to a warrior, to a kidnapping rapist to fulfill what he believed his role in the prophecy would be?
How many times have you read the books ? I'm impressed by the depth of your analysis of sansa/Danny/Ned.
+1 sub please never stop
( Ps : will you talk about other novels series like stormlight archives or The Wheel of time ? Any recommendations ? )
Her videos are always on point to make you think about stuff in a different light. 💯
Thanks! And my reading of the books varies, I've probably read them in entirety more than once total but I will go back to certain characters and chapters more than others either because I just like them more or for research purposes.
And unfortunately I'm not much of a "fun" reader anymore, which sucks because I can never give good recommendations! Reading is my actual job so after doing it for 40 hours a week I rarely read more when I'm done. However, I've been chipping away at Dune for a while because Denis Villeneuve's movie made my head explode with joy and it's really great, if you haven't read it I'd absolutely recommend!
@@HillsAliveYT You're reading Dune?! That's. . . a very interesting choice after spending so much time with ASOIAF. I hope you'll be moved to consider them in tandem someday.
I am! and even in not-tandem it's not hard to see how Dune inspired ASOIAF, Star Wars, and about a bajillion other things.
I love this channel
I think the between the prophecy, dragon dreams and the whoever is sending visions I'm not surprised that the Targaryns go mad. Also I think the histories are pretty biased.
I think only the first 3 kings were actually ever told this prophecy other didn’t know or only learned this from a book. Probably Aegon the 3rd didn’t until after he killed the dragons than after learning he tried to bring them back
He didnt kill the dragon's, whatever were left died out and the eggs stopped hatching
I recently watched a video of MatPat where Logan is finally aging though the film claimed it was adamantium poisoning, it really seemed to be his healing factor dying out.
In a similar sense, Targaryens' healing factor is equal to dragons and their blood descent. This is why I suppose the defects of inbreeding didn't really affect them until some time had gone. Dragons get larger and more powerful when they live much more, and dying with natural causes. We see Targaryens having a really close bond with Dragons.
So, if dragons don't continue to live because of civil wars and stuff, not only Targaryens' connection to dragons decrease, also, whatever power dragon blood has. I first thought it was the number of dragons but Aegon the conqueror and his sister wives only had three while Aenar had five. In spite of it, Aegon's dragons lived much, much long. Even when Meraxes died, she was 100+
Once dragons started dying younger, defects of inbreeding started to appear, not in physical manner but mentally. This is actually nature and nurture both. Dragon genes and Prophecies both murdered house Targaryen. Could this be a reason why Daenerys Targaryen went mad early (supposing Rhaegal or Viserion died and neglecting her huge coefficient of inbreeding)? Just something occurred to my mind.
7:02
Huh, I never thought of that.
Edit 1: this gonna go on a tangent:
Might Daemon I Blackfyre have known this ?
And might the prophecy been why Aegon IV hated his son Daeron I, because he saw in him a weakling who couldn’t protect the realm ?
Yet, having said all that, why would Bloodraven side with Daeron instead of Daemon, despite the latter being the brother he had loved ?
The lessons that George teaches looking back on my life I’ve messed up so much concerned about the future or plans of what I wanted not what I had trying to control what is out of you’re control being unappreciative will destroy you’re life and drive people away I’m only 20 and I’ve lost so much that I could’ve had because of realistic actions like this
I think a lot of this is just hindsight bias from the fans. You could argue that every past Targaryen ruler acted in the way that they did because of Aegon's prophecy, but I think the most likely explanation was that the Targaryen rulers just acted in their own interests and had their own quirks and misgivings. Did Baelor the Blessed know about the prophecy and dive into religion as a way to unite the realm against the coming Night? Or was he just an oddball caught up in religious fanaticism? The latter is probably more likely. Was Maegor the Cruel the way he was because he knew about the prophecy, or was he just a bad guy given too much power? Again, the latter seems more likely. And I don't think it's improbable that the Targaryens experience "madness" because of their inbreeding, which also causes physical deformations in many Targs like fetuses with dragon-like features and Aegon II having kids with multiple fingers and toes for example.
I don't think Aegon's Prophecy is canon for one reason: why were The Wall and the Night's Watch neglected by the Targaryens?
The Prophecy states the threat will come with a "great winter coming from the north". They know it's coming from The North.
What's the signature landmark up there? A giant magical ice wall. The order tasked with protecting it has a legend about a Long Night. The Starks words are "Winter is Coming". All of these things combined are like 2+2.
It's a plot hole if you ask me.
Alyssane Targaryen visited the wall for no particular reason other than help the night's watch. they even changed the name of "Snow's gate" to "Queen's gate".
she tried to fly her dragon north of the wall, but no one knows why. but Silverwing, her dragon, would not obey her, as if it was afraid of something.
maybe she had dragons dreams and that's why she visited the north so often.
also, the prophecy was George RR Martin's idea.
I don't believe the prophecy would have been specific enough about all of that, just that there would be an apocalypse eventually and only TPTWP can save the world from it, hence no point in helping the NW because they think it's their role to fend off the threat.
I do still think that the inbreeding contributed a lot to the Targaryen madness for the most part, as a lot of GRRM stories revolve around the consequences of inbreeding. Though if they had knowledge of the prophecy then I don't think it helped.
Rheagar certainly knew about the prophecy, or at the very least had heard about “the song of ice and fire,” since he explicitly mentioned it during one of Danyy’s visions at the house of the undying. If we assume that (1) her vision was in some way accurate and (2) that the Targaryen rule of only telling your apparent successor about the prophecy extended to the time of Mad King Aerys, then that’s an interesting prospect for one obvious reason. [HOTD SPOILER AHEAD:]
It means that Rheanrya somehow transmitted the prophecy to her fourth son, the toddler Aegon (who would later become Aegon III) before she was brutally executed on Dragonstone by Aegon II. Truly curious to see if this knowledge transmission will be depicted in the show, again assuming above assumptions are correct.
yes. prophecy made their actions seem mad. this includes inbreeding, which made them literally mad.
subjects of your videos essays are very insightful and uncommon . other channels seem to analyse the obvious.
i kinda don’t like that they made aegons prophecy a thing ngl
agreed…however GRRM actively pushed for it.
I think it’s a sign of how he intends to finish writing ASOIAF
I was thinking about something like this. It’d be cool in HOTD if before every Targaryen death from doing something stupid they’d mummer on about being the Blood of the Dragon
I still think all the incest had to have some kind of long term problem. But it's not as interesting of a point when talking about the Targaryens. However it is a fantasy world, and it seems they kind of ignore how much the incest would actually impact the children involved, especially with all the brothers and sisters reproducing through the history of the house
Hi, I am obviously new here & I am not as intelligent as many commentators. But, I had a few questions. Since the Targaryen were powerful beings without dragons, due to their inability to die by 🔥 🔥, could that alone feed their ego? .As for the prophecy, why was only part of it true? The Night King. Wouldn't Jon Snow's (the chosen one) act of killing his aunt also get Westeros to a better place? Also, would Arya have gained access to the Night King without the chaos the dragons were causing around Winterfell?
Aegon's dream says nothing about a Targaryen ruler, only about "winter coming".
Aegon's (or someone else's) deduction that resisting "winter" would require a unified realm under one ruler, preferably one of the Targaryen line (because dragons), is not prophecy; it is only a simple political program.
That said, everything else still applies and it is easy to understand how one generation's political program could have become "prophecy" to later ones and even grown in the telling ("the dragon must have three heads").
Maybe GRRM is showing how readily people want to believe in "a chosen one" instead of doing the actual preparation work. It applies to his audience too.
This doesn’t apply too much to this video, just one thing in particular you said:
It drives me crazy that people think Otto was lying and manipulating Alicent when he told her Rhaenyra may kill her children. Depending on how you see Otto, you could make an argument that he was manipulating her, but not with a lie. What he said was true. As you pointed out in another video, both sides had claims. Really good ones. People give Rhaenyra the benefit of the doubt by saying “oh she would never do that!” They don’t realize that this is a world where families kill one another all the time to solidify their position. Brother kills brother, son kills father, uncle kills nephew. Saying alicent and Rhaenyra drifted apart because Rhaenyra slept with a man and didn’t tell the truth is cheapening the situation. When Rhaenyra lied to alicent, alicent realized that the pair wasn’t as close as she thought. Additionally, Rhaenyra might wish to spare aegon, but when she married daemon, all bets were off. Daemon had it out for house Hightower from the beginning of the show.
Alicent wasn’t stupid for fearing for her children. She’d be stupid if she ignored the situation like viserys did. As another person commented, when push comes to shove, it would be alicent and her family getting shoved, as shown by the reaction when aemond had his eye cut out.
If there was a professy, it would have been lost in Rhaena or even Aerea Targaryen, who was heirs of Aenys, son of Aegon.
Jaeherys wasn't rased as his heir and assume the Iron Throne after Maegor and was reased by his Mother who was not a Targaryen.
I might be alone here in thinking this, but I personally dislike the whole idea of "the Targs knew about the long winter the whole time!" plot twist. I think it makes the world feel smaller, it creates plotholes in the history of Westeros and it presents the Targs in a slightly more heroic light than I think they deserve
As much as I disdain the TV show ending I'm glad you wrote and made this video justifying that the Targaryens aren't heroes. They are colonizers, zealots, and or self delusional God kings whoe provide an important lesson. One must strive to do good in the present and do said good without ill faith. In other words the ends don't justify the means.
I personally think that Daemon completely humilating Rhaenyra for believing in Aegon's Prophecy was a huge scene to analyse. Rhaenyra should have worded it differently, instead of "Aegon's Dream" she should have called it "Aegon's Prophecy." Daemon wasn't particularly fond of prophecies and portents and dreams, but he would have been more easily convinced had Rhaenyra sat down and explained what Viserys SPECIFICALLY said. Daemon was very VERY angry with Rhaenyra at the time she decided to share her knowledge of the prophecy with him. He was not thinking rationally. Had Rhaenyra allowed Daemon to take out some of his anger, it could have been very different. Rhaenyra's attempt to supress Daemon's rage throughout the Dance causes a lot of tension. They're two full blooded Targaryen warheads, married, during a civil war, with opposing views. Like fuck man. Though Daemon thought his brother was weak and a horrible king, theres very little reason to doubt that if Rhaenyra had delivered the prophecy to Daemon like Viserys delivered it to Rhaenyra, it would have convinced him. Or better yet had Viserys himself told Daemon. Viserys should have also made it clear to Rhaenyra at some point that she was the ONLY one he ever told, so she wouldn't have assumed Daemon knew and embarrassed herself. Rhaenyra should have told Daemon when she proposed marriage. When she said in High Valyrian "Let us wed like Aegon did with his sisters" or something like that. She should have mentioned the Prophecy then, she was already hyped up and convincing enough, she should have kept going. Then maybe the actions of them both could be somewhat justified moving forward. The part that doesn't sit well with me is that both Rhaenyra and Viserys knew about the Prophecy, but still tried to seat a bastard on the Iron Throne. If the Prophecy stated that a Targaryen must sit the Iron Throne in order to battle the White Walkers and the Long Night, then why did he back Jacaery's claim to the Iron Throne? He let his love for his first born grandson have precedence over his belief in the Prophecy, the same one that led him to kill the love of his life. He ignored it in favor of Jacaerys's, and his "only child." Better yet his decison to name Rhaenyra heir in the first place didn't even make sense because when you think about it, wouldn't you have wanted a man like Daemon at the head of the war against the White Walkers? Assuming Viserys's urgency in producing a male heir, he probably assumed the Prophecy could be fullfilled any day, at any time, so why not name Daemon? If Daemon believed in the Prophecy he probably would have held the realm together. What bothers me is that King Jaehaerys knew about the Prophecy, and probably told both Aemon and Baelon, Aemon first and then Baelon after Aemon died and he was named heir. So the Prophecy had multiple carriers right? It should have been told to both Viserys and Daemon while they were growing up by Baelon. The decisons they would have made based on this knowledge of the Prophecy would have changed so many minor details that in the end could have outright prevented the Dance of the Dragons. Right down to the first six (of many) HUGE mistakes Viserys made as king. 1) Naming Otto Hightower as Hand of the King. 2) Not telling Daemon of Aegon's Prophecy or trusting him AT ALL. 3) Killing Aemma in pursuit of the prophecy. 4) Naming Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone and Heir to the Iron Throne. 5) Remarrying into The Faith. And 6) not betrothing Rhaenyra to Daemon in the first place. With both Daemon and Rhaenyra having had knowledge of the prophecy, and having produced full-blooded Targaryen children, they would have been unbeatable. THEY WOULD ALSO ALL STILL HAVE ALL THEIR FUCKING DRAGONS INCLUDING VHAGAR ON THEIR SIDE!!!!
Also a little detail I noticed and found extremely important was the fact that Viserys's dream of his first born son being born wearing Aegon The Conquerors crown, in the end is what ended up happening. Aegon was crowed with the Conquerors crown, not Jaehaerys and Viserys's crown. He was right about some parts of his dream, but misinterpreted it, just as he did Aegon's Prophecy.
Okay here's my question. Why did no Targaryen ever fly past the wall? They have dragons. If they are convinced that they need to destroy a threat from beyond the Wall why would they not seek that threat out and try to destroy it in its infancy?
In the books the dragons are actually repelled by the wall interestingly.
@@HillsAliveYT where is this stated? Not doubting you just read all of the main series but none of the supplementals.
@@HillsAliveYT I've been on a binge of your content by the way I love your theories!!!??
@@scottbrowne9024 Alysanne tried to fly Silverwing past it but the dragon wouldn't go
TlDr: Targaryens trying to imitate prophecy were simply deluding themselves and entertaining notions of self grandeur.
Did Aegon believe that the Prince who was promised had Martell blood?
They are what they felt they needed to be at the moment.
i actually don't think "aegons" prophecy was actually aegon at all. it makes more sense to be an invention of alysane and Septon Barth as Alysane had actually visited the wall and Septon Barth was an expert on dragonlore and magic.
Knowing George Martin's writing style, this could be even more complicated. A combination of prophecy obsession with genetic consequences of inbreeding and maybe even someone powerful like Three-Eyed Raven a.k.a. BloodRaven or Bran messing with their brains from the future. That's the likely answer.
White walkes - "Burn them all!"
But Rhegar was right, he just went about it disastrously,
Damn, I really liked this video. Prophecy reminds me of religious people who justify their actions because of what their god says.
The Targaryen were leech Lords, landlords of a foreign people. Refusing to interact or breed with them to keep their blood pressure from the comments. Jaehaerys the conciliator was the first true ruler of a people and not some landlord with a dragon.
Power hungry people who thing they can do anything and it's justify.
as they should
I just assumed Targaryen madness came from generations of incest. This is a really interesting take and I'm curious to see how the prophecy will play out in the remaining books
I suuuuuper feel like "begs the question" is being used incredibly incorrectly. I love these videos but I cringe when I hear it. Just Google "Begging the question" and you'll see.
I mean I always just figured that they were crazy because of the copious amounts of inbreeding
…euh more likely all the sister-wifeing is the actual cause !
Yes the prophecy made them crazy, not a thousand years of inbreeding. Lol.
Personally I think it’s just a case of the incest that causes madness. If you notice, the Targaryen’s who are not born of incest and have either a noble mom or dad that married into the family turned out okay. But the ones with a brother/sister parents, aunt/nephew parents, etc tend to be more mad. Especially Daenerys, being the product of two generations of incest.