Jordan Peterson debates atheist Susan Blackmore who says life is meaningless
Vložit
- čas přidán 11. 06. 2018
- FULL DEBATE: • Jordan Peterson vs Sus...
For the full video, further episodes, updates and an exclusive clip of Jordan Peterson on why atheist can’t deny free will sign up at www.thebigconversation.show
In this clip Jordan B Peterson debates atheist Susan Blackmore on whether life has meaning.
The Big Conversation is a unique video series from Unbelievable? featuring world-class thinkers across the Christian and atheist community. Exploring science, faith, philosophy and what it means to be human.
The Big Conversation series:
Jordan Peterson & Susan Blackmore • Jordan Peterson vs Sus...
Steven Pinker & Nick Spencer • Steven Pinker vs Nick ...
Derren Brown & Rev Richard Coles • Derren Brown & Rev Ric...
John Lennox & Michael Ruse • Michael Ruse vs John L...
Daniel Dennett & Keith Ward • Daniel Dennett vs Keit...
Peter Singer & Andy Bannister - • Andy Bannister vs Pete...
The Big Conversation is produced by Premier in partnership with the Templeton Religion Trust
Videos, updates, exclusive content www.thebigconversation.show/
Hey folks. We held back an exclusive clip of JBP and Blackmore debating whether atheists can believe in free will. If you want it then sign up at www.thebigconversation.show
Pls town down your bias it is not professional and will not encourage further conversations
Dan K - How does it feel to be one of the gullible ones? Selling yourself for impulse.
Trepanation21 what ru talking about? Lol it came out a long time ago
Dude you’re so biased! it’s disgusting. We got it. you’re not an atheist and you love Jordan.
Dawkins wouldn't be able to debate Peterson. That's why he haven't done it yet
It’s a curious thing to listen to people have a meaningful conversation about meaninglessness.
Totally agree with you. Her thoughts are the thoughts of a psychopath.
@@oswaldmattos8479 Nietzsche recognised this incoherence
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?” Of course the consequences of his nihilism was madness.
Onesimus, God will always remain dead or non-existent for people without a moral compass. Just look at all the mass murderers of the world. Most were atheists with no regard for fellow man. All evil comes from man himself . It's a sad and disturbing state of affairs.
@@onesimusthings3455 give thanks. on your knees.
@@oswaldmattos8479 whatever is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. :) St Paul
Nice to see a conversation where one party isn’t immediately totally butthurt because their viewpoint is challenged.
😂 very true. Love the term Butthurt. Lol
@@jamesemerson4102 booty tickled
Nice to see this comment on every debate video that's remotely civil 😂
I know right, so sad that this is so rare its nice to see... neither one is belittling the other for having a different view, and both trying to explain why they don't agree with them.
Nice to see people who are not yelling or screaming at each other and having a calm conversation.
Susan Blackmore is quite brave to openly allow her beliefs to be critiqued. I respectfully disagree with her, but we so desperately need honest open dialog. I wish her happiness and hope she is well.
Glad you can do so. I can’t, if she purposely allows herself to live such a hopeless existence yet contradicts that by doing anything significant, then she doesn’t deserve my respect.
Respect is earned.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn exactly.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn Then what is the meaning of life? We all know that the biological meaning of life is to reproduce and to survive. But aside from that, what is the meaning of life in your opinion? And also if you compare it with the infinity of time and space. (Honest question and sorry for bad english or grammar).
@@quintens879 The meaning of life is to do something that lasts forever, and we’re proud of on this planet that was given to us. It’s a stunning world with so much to do & love.
Above all else; we’re here to have fun & glorify our existence.
At least, that’s just my thoughts, whatever the true answer is, I’m positive it’s not *Life is meaningless.*
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn when we come to life our life is meaningless. What we do in life is what gives it meaning. The things we try to achieve and we attach to it as you said something that lasts forever. Thats what gives meaning to our life. What you said doesnt contradict the phrase life is meaning less. You agree to it
He's spot on! It cannot be a "tragedy" if it is meaningless.
And as a person who has struggled with severe depression, I know what it means to truly believe something is meaningless, and believe me when you truly believe life meaningless, getting up to go to the bathroom is hard.
She absolutely believes life is meaningful!
i think her point was...Life is meaningless and it's up to her to give meaning in it...
it's like an empty bottle you gradually fill up through the years of living
@@friendsfrenz1944 People who are severely depressed won't even fill the bottle, because they see everything as meaningless, including living life.
@@friendsfrenz1944 that's being generous. If you listen closely to what she says following that, it cancels this interpretation
@@primativemath3265 I reject Nihilist Moral Relativism. Life has meaning. It's living it.
@@primativemath3265 That's a whole lot of words just to explain how you don't believe morality is real. Which is moral relativism; E.G.; Moral Relativism is, definitionally, the idea that Morality is a construct of humanity. It is not "I choose what is right", it is the idea that morality is constructed by human beings. So you are a moral relativist.
You are a Nihilist because you don't believe in meaning, you believe meaning is a construct. That's nihilism; the emptiness of life/death/existence.
And I reject both.
Is it meaningful to write meaningful books about meaninglessness?
is meaningful to the ones who profit from the scam. snake oil. gotta feed yo kids bro even if tht takes writing fictional books. me personally I like Jk Rowling better.
You're right. They are playing a game of sorts.
That sounds like something Douglas Adams would write.
@@Stormkrow280 I’ve been putting off Hitchhikers guide for a long time. I guess I have to read it now!
Yeah if life is meaningless then why even wonder if you're life is meaningless? The fact that she's trying to figure that out shows that she sees value in her life, if she didn't she wouldn't even ask those questions, she just would let herself die and not eat pretty much. We all eat because we want to last and survive as much as we can and that's meaningful.
JP's face and posture scream "I'm not intellectually challenged by this argument at all."
I don't agree that that's what his face is saying but that certainly seems an appropriate thought
@@stilliving he looks completely laid back, like he's heard this one a million times. "Life is meaningless" but you live like it has meaning.
@@Alexkearney Bravo, it's almost as if we can give meaning to our own lives.
@@stipe9k almost, but not quite.
It’s called listening 🥸
As a person who suffer from depression, anxiety and autoimmune problems.. I can tell you that finding meaning in everything I do is something very important for my life that’s has kept me going. If I was to think like that lady here says, I would have be a goner a long time ago. It’s in the face of adversity and suffering that we need to have the courage and faith to keep living. Because even in the darkest moments in life, being able to see the light up ahead is so meaningful. There are good moments even in the midst of suffering. And like someone said “we live by faith not by sight”…that is so true, because even our minds and feelings can play tricks on you.
Exactly ever since i came to Christ my life feels more fufilling a purposeful.
I too had also suffered with depression anxiety and was gonna kill myself because I had a mentality like this. "This is pointless, life is nothing anyways"
But Christ came to me and saved me of all that and now I truly have purpose in all i do
I can understand that I also have major depression, anxiety and insomnia and I use to eat raw garlic multiple times a day to get my blood circulating cuz depression etc causes you to lose blood circulation and make you cold and would use garlic to get my blood circulating but after a few months I was getting more fatigue and being very slow minded about things and got a blood test showing I was on the very edge of autoimmune syndrome and I went to get a bottle of fish/flaxseed oil supplements and took a dozen a day and in a week I was feeling better and by the 2nd week I was lot better and the Dr did another test showing I was back to normal and asked me how I did so fast I told him I took a lot of fish/flaxseed oil supplements daily for 2 weeks and he told me I was crazy to do that but understood that it was as unhealthy
@@tylersoto7465 wow that’s good that you where able to feel better. I know diet has a lot to do with it. I been trying to eat cleaner. I do notice every time I do slip of the wagon I start feeling lower energy and lethargic. I hope one day we can over come this problem completely.
@@quilodinerro amen I’m happy you found Christ. And same thing I find God gives meaning to all this reality. Especially Christ. All my best wishes to you. Keep fighting the good fight of faith. And I know God can heal our hearts and body form this horrible sickness. We have to keep believing. God bless.
@@elielsolis God bless you 🙏🏾
I was almost suckered into becoming a "new atheist" when I first emigrated to North America as an international student. I figured i wanted to be accepted by the culture and I also wanted to come off as sophisticated. Until I actually met and interacted with several of them and found them to be very narcissistic, lacking any sort of foundation for their reasoning, too quick to deny the positives of Judeo-Christian traditions that built the western world and also too accepting of divisive identity politics. I immediately left and am glad to still be a practicing Catholic today.
Wouldn't call you a Catholic . Just a pretender
@@disciplinedgrindset623
Without knowing him, yet you could tell that he's lying from him using his keyboard to tell his experience??
No wonder you're the way you are 🤣😂
You're not very smart!
@@emmanuel8310 ?? confused
@@emmanuel8310 why would he lie ??
@@emmanuel8310 I don't think you are very smart .....why do you think he is lying when you haven't ever seen him or known him
She inadvertantly confirmed the point C. S. Lewis made when he said, "If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."
A more likely explanation is that those desires are a byproduct of your evolved cognitive structures.
Good quote! I would go even further and say that anyone who feels this way would probably find more satisfaction in this life by aiding in the pursuit of the creation of a world where they could fit in. Because if they feel that way, how many other humans feel the same?
Inventing something new, coming up with a new school of thought or even just supporting someone who is in the pursuit of something novel would probably give people who feel like that that were interested a lot of meaning, or at the very least a suitable community.
@Luca StucaTrue, but IQ is not the only factor at play here. There’s no way Peterson’s IQ is below 120, yet he seems not to get it. His mentality is understandable for a clinical psychologist: he wants to reduce suffering, and for many people nowadays that implies finding ‘meaning’ in life (commonly linked to personal responsibilites, as he often argues). Of course, the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful is intellectually indefensible. But either he is fooled by the kind of psychology I’ve just mentioned or he knowingly disseminates false claims in the hope of helping people anyway.
@Michael P, that's not a point, that's an intuition mixed up with wishful thinking. An idea worth philosophising, but nothing more.
@@sebastianparamera2424 Why is the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful intellectually indefensible? Do you think human beings possessing intrinsic value is also indefensible?
She tried to tell him that life is meaningless by giving arguments that she has meaning in what she does…
Doesn't make it meaningful that she finds meaning in it. I used to find meaning in playing in the dirt as a kid, there was no value to it and how I felt about it didn't change that.
...exactly...life has whatever meaning we imbue upon it...THAT'S THE POINT...
I mean…..she takes the time to dye specific sections of her hair green. If life is meaningless why bother with something as purely aesthetic as that? Silly argument to say that life is meaningless and then add “so just get on with it”. If life is meaningless then why bother to get on with anything? She’s chasing her own tail.
@@lalatarantula9981 ...said the person who entirely missed the point just like Peterson and the channel who posted this...
...exactly...now you're getting it...life has no intrinsic meaning...only what we imbue it with...
The worst part of her argument is what Jordan frequently argues, which is that her outlook is horrible once great suffering and tribulation enters into your life. If you don't believe there is a deep meaning to your life, the suffering is very likely to absolutely break you.
I'm not trying to pick on the guy but... Great suffering entered his lie and it absolutely destroyed him. I'm not sure his outlook is anymore protective.
@@Strawbclock0 believing in higher meaning doesn’t make you immune to being broken, I don’t believe that’s what this guy is trying to say. It’s moreso that believing in higher meaning can offer resilience
Who do you think is happier?
No that’s not true, Jordan Peterson and others who think like this are too obsessed hypotheticals, moving on and carrying on to survive is life personified
She says “nothing matters, everything is empty and meaningless”, then how can she recognize that bad things happen to her and there are tragedies around the world? Mustn’t she assign meaning to herself and and the world around her to recognize that bad things are happening? Of course it all had meaning. She only says these things to cope with the bad things that happen to her and to cope with the tragedies in the world.
Somehow she sounds like a teenager contemplating the meaning to life and hasn't quite moved beyond what a "bummer" it can all be at times
I think if she were completely honest she would admit like Jordan that she is afraid God does exist.
@@sunshinegirl1967 If God exists, then life is meaningless,
christian faith is life denying, you`re wasting this life that you have for a god that doesn`t even want you!
If God exists he is the cruelest most evil thing in existence.
100% agree👍
You did not argued at any point that something is meaningful. You argued that things just happened. Witch is kinda what she said.
You see good or bad is a concept of people. Nothing in this universe has ethical values.
Or any proven reason. Things just happen.
If you don’t believe that we are meaningless why do you think we believed that the earth is the Center of the universe and the sun is rotating around us?
Because we want to believe that we are important, but that does not mean we are.
and that my friend is a proof in itself that we tent to lie to ourselves and that we’re not sincere when we think that the reality is that we are important. We just wanted to be. but the truth is more sad.
The universe is not made for us, neither against us. We don’t have a purpose in it. Or at least we don’t have an argument that we have one. We just exist.
“Then you should listen to the body and stop listening to the thing that’s criticizing it.” That words just blew my mind.
That is self contradictory. I like it.
When you know psychotherapy, his word makes perfect sense.
What does he meant by that?
@@ankushdeep8233 Jordan means that we are not our mind - we are experiencing our mind.
He also means, I belive, that research has shown that our bodies have their own intelligence e.g. you don't need to be conscious of digestion for example.
So Jordan is saying, get out of thinking your life as this women was doing and actually LIVE your life.
That's the meaning of life - LIFE itself.
@@maxchadwick7714 Yep. It demands that we have meaning and a meaningful maker. Otherwise, why bother living lol. It’s obvious that there is meaning in order to say the opposite, which is why it is utter foolishness to say there is no meaning. Yes, there are minute things and big things we do not fully understand. That demands meaning also. Jordan is awesome and brilliant.
Whoever is right, I do appreciate that the discussion remains civil. Especially on her part since Jordan in proposing a counter argument to her thesis.
Jordan is clearly right.
@@blackerpanther3329 I agree
Thesis? She wrote a book on this shit?
@@1ma4ighter yeah, a book on her thesis
@@blackerpanther3329 the way I see it, they're both right
The last line was killer: "The atheist types act out a religious structure and then criticize it."
I may be one of the only people here who sincerely loves and respects the work of both of these thinkers. For those not familiar with Dr. Blackmore, her work on culture and memes is absolute vital to understanding civilization. Jordan Peterson has been a keystone figure to my understanding of the world as well. I’d have paid good money to have been in that room for that discussion.
Memes are memes anyone attaching some profound societal thing to it is just a fool, if your dumb enough to assign meaning to memes but not your life then sorry you don't deserve to debate an intellectual like Jordan his time is more valuable than someone saying life is meaningless but attaching meaning to toilets and memes, it is blatant absurdity of how far our culture has fallen that people attach meaning to a meme.
@@dongalore9028 I have to assume you think we're referring to "meme" in the colloquial sense-that's the only way I can make sense of a comment like this. "Memes" in the context of this discussion isn't describing a funny image that gets passed around on the internet." The study of memetics is a serious branch of psychology and anthropology, in which a meme is described as an individual of unit of culture that is passed from person to person. The word "meme" was coined by Richard Dawkins to work in tandem with the the idea "gene." It's describing the Darwinian aspect of culture and society.
Jordan Peterson isn`t a thinker, he is a great psychologist,
his philosophical understanding is so lack luster, and he misrepresent philosophers consistently to support his own political or christian morale views.
Ok Jared. I'll make a meme out of that. It'll change the world.
@@thetruth4654 Where can I watch him misrepresent philosophers?
1:03
This woman doesn't seem to know what depression and nihilism do to people. I spent years telling myself that everything was pointless and meaningless.
Rather than feel freed by it, I was crushed beneath the emptiness of it all. I wouldn't shower or shave. I would eat barely enough to keep hunger pains from becoming too noticeable. I decided my job added more misery than necessary to my already pointless life, so I quit. Subsisted on donating plasma and charity from my family, worrying them to no end about me. My childhood dream of being a writer became a painful lie I couldn't bear thinking about. Suicidal thoughts were common, the only thing pulling the gun away from my head was fear of the unknown. From my perspective at the time, death could only bring nonexistence or torment, neither of which were better than laying in bed or playing video games all day.
It wasn't until I rejected nihilism and turned to romanticism that my life started to really improve. Every day, I choose to see the meaning in living.
Don't you have any passions? I believe that life has the meaning you decide to give it. Since there's a few things I love doing I try to spend my time participating in these activities as they give me joy. I don't believe in the after life so I have a sense of urgency to do the things I love.
Life is meaninglessness
It's up to you go make it meaningful to you as the observer your actions and what you can do can effect outcome of other thinking beings
We effect each other which makes life worth meaning to us alone
Sounds like you did it wrong.
Depression and nihilism aren’t the same thing.
@@harveydodd8803 i don’t think that was his claim. more that nihilism tends to birth depression
It would be great if Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins would have this kind a debate
It would be great if he had a _discussion_ with someone. Peterson is very defensive in a lot of his interviews. He needs an unmoderated conversation, and someone that will put him at ease. Dawkins would be a good choice, because of his temperament, but I think you need someone who also has a more philosophical background as well. Someone like Pinker would be ideal maybe.
I don't think Dawkins would do so well.
Dawkins is an irate moron who likes to spew out big words in steaming chunks.
@@sherlockinsomniac At least Dawkins's strings of big words have meanings. As a rule, after Peterson greets a fellow debater at the start of a debate, almost everything else he says is utterly cognitively meaningless.
@@ryanlee5887 Dawkins would demolish Jordan P and it would be sad to watch because Jordan P would plough on earnestly and stubbornly with his usual, utterly meaningless nonsense about Jung and Nietzsche and archetypes.
After 26years of living in Godless foolishness, I thank God 8 years ago for opening my eyes to the truth! The arguments atheists come up with are embarrassing to me as a reminder of how I used to be.
That's awesome what changed your views. What changed you?
I am just curious that is all.
Well and using a 2000 y o book as proof of your believe is not embarassing?!
Just accept that your believe is believe, not truth nothing more is said by atheists
@@lisamorre7946 Well...I would like really to listen to him and ask what made him change though
@@lisamorre7946 why would it be embarrassing? you have faith about that I have faith about this to me it is truth now stfu🗿 honestly I'm proud I can use a 2,000 yr old book as proof what can you use 🗿 Jesus lived and resurrected no body in his tomb
@@lisamorre7946 0+0+0 = cannot be possibly equal to 1.
I love Jordan Peterson so much! Been watching all of his videos for years now! He's a Canadian National treasure!👏💗
Weird life philosophy. It's almost like she thinks her critical mind is in conflict with her person and she's just along for the ride because she can't transplant outta there. Everything she does has meaning (career, students, family) and is constructed by her, but thinks she isn't in control of it. She could just sit in her favourite chair and wait to die. But she doesn't. Because she has meaning, in spite of herself.
Also it denies that there is any fundamental moral or ethical character to anything. I've read from former heroin addicts that it's the best feeling you can possibly imagine. According to her view, there is fundamentally nothing or wrong or inferior with just quitting our jobs and doing heroin every day until we take just enough to gently drift away and die. To say this isn't true from a fundamentally atheistic materialist perspective is ultimately hypocrisy.
@@Pheer777 That's a oversimplification of nihilism. It's the same BS as to say that for a christian ultimately this life on Earth is just to suffer and sacrifice himself everyday and hope for early death to be with the "daddy" ASAP.
It is something fundamentally wrong with quitting your job and doing heroin. You just got this one life, after that it's over, all your experiences, sensations, everything ceases to exist. Why would you want this one shot for "life" to be miserable and short, only because there is no transcendent "big picture" or what?
When you cook your meal, why do you bother to make it appetizing? In a couple of hours you sh...t it out and it's over. There is no transcendent ultimate meaning of that meal and yet people go out of their way to make their meals delicious, event christians...
@@ivanvnucko3056 You misunderstand my point. According to heroin users, it's literally the best feeling you can physically experience. You can't tell me that living a relatively short life of immense pleasure is "worse" than a longer one. It's worse if the variable you're aiming to optimize for is "length of life" but there is no objective reason why that is the "correct" variable to maximize, or why a longer life is inherently preferable to a short one lived with immense pleasure. If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others'.
@@Pheer777 I agree suprisingly :) but what is then your point? To be clear I agree with Susan, life is meaningless in objective manner, meaning there is no "fundamental moral anything". That is somehow "bad", or illogical or what is the objection to this worldview?
@@Pheer777 "If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others" - And you can point to some objective reason? Is there anywhere in the commandments "Thou shall not abuse heroin..."? If there really is a "objective moral standard" what are it's contents? I mean really some specific contents of this standard (beside the obligatory "do not torture babies for fun").
And can we investigate these contents somehow? If yes, why are there wild disagreements about them? What happens when completely new acts and behaviors emerge (revenge porn, online bulling, stem cell research etc.) which were not present in the past, is the moral standard updating itself?
And if we cannot objectively investigate it (it's only "written in our hearts" or something) what is then the practical difference to moral relativism, where everybody creates his own moral standard? If most people in the world do not accept the authority of the christian "lawgiver" and the objective existence of your moral standard as binding for everyone, how does its existence help you to settle the disagreements?
Her opening statement is a contradiction in terms. “Everything is meaningless so get on with it.”
Get on with what?
Get on with it. What is it and why bother since it is a futile endeavour.
If there is no "it", what is the problem? That you seem to have a problem already shows that you have an "it" to get on with.
"it" referring to one's personal world. The meaning in our lives is created totally by our brains. The universe didn't create my value, I did. The universe doesn't need a meaning behind it, in order for us to give our lives value and meaning.
@@pwoods100 So.. Life is what you make it? You can be a bum since existence is meaningless or you can create meaning to your existence. I mean just cause our existence in this universe isn't known we dont have to be a sad sack of shit and just give up. If she truly believed that "who gives a shit nothing really matters" attitude then why not just go jump off a bridge?
@@andye5724 Her life matters to her. That's all she's trying to say. Yes, your own life is what you make it. Sure, there are things we can't control, but the things that we can control - we can adjust, and make better. I don't think you said anything I necessarily disagree with. You assume this lady thinks that everything is meaningless.........that's obviously not the case.
Humans are ultimately the ones creating meaning on this planet. And maybe animals to some smaller extent.......
If there is a higher meaning to the universe, then what is it? Whether there is a god or not, no god has ever spoken to humanity and told them the meaning of the universe. Until that happens, we are stuck with figuring things out on our own.
Yeah, that's what he said
"The world is just evil get used to it"
Is exactly what evil people running things want everyone to believe.
Jordan Peterson has an incredible mind. She was civil but he completely deconstructed her arguments.
No, he dismissed her arguments based on his own ideology.
Deconstruct? Are we using the same English language?
@@humanitarianbombings If you're a Lefty I'm pretty sure we're not.
@@MrVara411 LOL well if you're conditioned by either constitutionally degrading corporate owned party, you're easily impressed and ignorant my friend. The mere fact these two do not denounce a debate about whether life is meaningful or meaningless makes their conversation a useless one. It's like asking them to prove or disprove whether God is real. It's an unanswerable question for our limited species.
@@bethgleason3896 he dismissed her logic as if she was a small child claiming to be an astronaut in the future
“The atheist types act out a religious structure and criticize it.” -JP
So true. Humans can’t get away from acting out meaning because it’s wired in us.
What religious structure? Being mindful of others has nothing to do with religion. It's a matter of survival.
@@briannyob7799hey friend. In the whole debate you get the essence of Peterson’s ideas:)…It seems a religious structure is simply a series of values and morals that all humans cannot get away from acting out on a daily basis.
@@drivebyquipper yes, of course.
@@jarrettjb I think you need to watch a bit more JP's videos. The man is all over the place. Can never seem to get him to commit to any idea about religion. One minute he tries to say there is a god and he believes. The next pulls this BS, about a religious structure. Yes, society has values and morals.
@@briannyob7799having read his book I’ve found him to be fairly consistent although I’m sure he’s got some flaws. It seems every man has religion. In other words a series of laws and rules, shoulds and should nots written on their conscience. Humans can’t get away from their belief systems. When I was an atheist I had a structure of ultimate reality that I walked according to.
As a former nihilist life has meaning. People only say that it is meaningless because they don't have anything that is meaningful to them.
A qoute that further explains what I'm trying to say goes like this, "Maybe, just maybe there is no meaning to life but if you linger long enough you may find something of value". For me when i found that something in life that I valued I no longer was a nihilist. What I valued had meaning and it had meaning to me.
Honestly this is such an entertaining duo to watch, Caught myself smiling with each point made and contested
Just the fact that we discuss the meaning of life, means it has a meaning.
@@huskestativ Perhaps not but if iron exists it has its purpose, therefore, it has it's meaning.
@@huskestativ the fuck has iron got to do with it?!
@@giuseppetota "but if iron exists" but do you have faith iron exists?
@@fukpoeslaw3613 why faith?
But how do you get to that conclusion?
From what Standpoint are you reffering?
Just because you discuss something it doesnt inherently mean that it has a meaning. Maybe for you it has a meaning because you think that it has a meaning. But you cant make that argument for everybody because everybody has different understandings about the meaning of life. You cant propose something just because you think about it. Because if you argue like that you can insert every other word into that equasion because it has to be a universally applying theory. It isnt really an argument that you are making there. If you would have said that "God exists and he made me so i have a meaning now" thats perfectly alright. Because as an argument you have your religion or god. And that subject gives you the meaning. So its koherent. Whereas a discussion cant give you a meaning because a discussion is just a word that we have brought up. Its a made up word. We can discuss and think about it because of biological evolution and the anatomy. We can speak because of several factors like our mouth for example or tongue. The other think is our intelligence. The constant questioning about the meaning of life has been a topic for thousands of years. Thats where all the cults and religions from past civilisations came from. They were trying to explain all the things going on around them by inserting a "god" into that equasion. Something that is out of your control. You can only think about something that you have experienced yourself. Just like you can only dream about something that you have done before, have watched before or experienced before. You cant dream about America for example if the country was given a different name. Same applies to a "dicussion" its firstly a word. And the meaning of that word is having a conversation about a certain topic and your opinion based upon your past experienced and knowledge. So how do you conclude from a discussion that life has meaning. You combine a physicall and biological factor and intelligence and experience and you conclude and come up with a completely different thing. It doesnt make sense to me.
I'm an atheist but like so many in high-school and even in early 20s I lived having a nihilistic views and it absolutely ruined me. It wasn't until I started to create values and personal responsibility and tell myself free will exists that my life started to improve and I felt better. I don't care if it's not true from a great philosophical argument or what not. It works it feels human. I'll lie to myself if it means I don't go back to being a nihilist. I had severe depression isolation and no reason to do anything. I actually am way more tolerant towards religious ppl because I wouldn't want anyone to completely live out the idea of nothing matters, it's all meaningless.
Thanks for sharing! It was the same kind of thinking for me that brought me towards Christianity. God is so loving and gives us meaning that I decided to give my life to Jesus!
Thank you for your honesty! I agree with you on this.
I wish you well and hope you're doing good nowadays! :) And for whatever it's worth to you, I will keep you in my prayers.
This guy gets it
You explained it way better than the jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore
It's not a "zen, Buddhist way" of looking at things - it's a miserable way of looking at things. It drips with misery and self loathing.
While I agree, that also doesn’t really matter
She is doing a structure of meaning, but camouflage it with some misconception of positive nihilism. Jordan hit inmiddely that mark. She falls weaker when she is trying to prove it again after that comment.
Buddhism is miserable.
@@michaelhansen8959 Cade au to her for declaring herself a Nihilist, which you don't see often. However spinning it to be a life philosophy kind of defeats the idea of Nihilism in the first place.
@@Tore_Lund exactly! Have respect for both parties, tho.
I suffered from Acedia for a very long time. Despair and nihilism is one of the seven deadly sins. God preserve us 🤲☦️
St Augustine said it best; Oh Lord our hearts are restless until they rest in thee. Seek the fullness of heaven not the emptiness of this world
He also said that the truth of Nature does not conflict with the Truth of Scripture. If ever there appears to be a conflict, then it is the interpretation of one, the other or both that is in error.
@@RodMartinJr Nature cannot be misinterpreted, neither science.
@@brucedownunda7054 LOL. Read Thomas S. Kuhn's, *_The Structure of Scientific Revolutions._* Classic work which shows plenty of examples of scientists misinterpreting nature and distorting science with their imperfect worldviews. Look up Isaac Newton and phlogiston. It took the likes of Lavoisier to fix Newton's misunderstanding on "fire."
The problem is there is no after life. We'll all be food for worms.
@@juliovillagran4105 Tye afterlife is more real than my written response to your remark. There is tons upon tons of proof that there is God and that there is an afterlife. Trouble is most of this world today cannot see it as they are blinded by materialism, greed and false power that this empty world offers.
The last sentence from Peterson is so on point. Atheists live out a religious structure and criticize it at the same time
I didn't understand what he meant by 'religious structure', can you explain?
@@aksy1430555 what I think he is saying is (and I must emphasis that this is just my personal interpretation) is that most atheists take there atheism as a sign of enlightenment above theists. Rationalizing it as 'I understand the world better than most, so I have a greater understanding of the world' which is basically just what most fanatical theists say. And the other interpretation I can think of is that most atheists "barrow" their moral structures and foundations from religions, mainly because of the fact that atheism inherently has no moral foundation, because no matter how good of an argument you make, the inescapable truth of the matter is that according to an atheistic stand point; life is meaningless and there is no point to our existence.
for example, most feminists are of the understandable and correct opinion that rape is a bad and wrong thing. but most feminists are probably also atheists, But the idea (in the west at least) that rape is wrong originates from Judeo-Christianity, and the idea that people should keep themselves for marriage
Any way its like 2am and I am in no way an expert at debate, that's just my opinion and you internet people can feel free to pick my entire world view apart peace by peace, I don't care good night.
@@joejoe0213 Oh I see, so this is in response to radical athiests. This is weird tho cuz I thought atheism was about not believing in the idea of there being a higher power that is inherently responsible for everything. This idea of life being meaningless seems pretty absurd to me. Just because there isn't a God that does not make everything meaningless. There is absolutely meaning in being curious about the universe and trying to make sense of it all and understanding how everything around us works. This "meaningless" ideology is absurd if you ask me.
Also, saying life is meaningless if there is no God is just admitting that God needs to be real for everything to make sense which contradicts this radical atheism and the whole argument just falls apart.
Atheism is not a religious structure. Atheism is nothing more, and nothing less than non belief in a creator of the universe. Atheists only universal trait is that they demand evidence.
@@joejoe0213 The last place I would ever go for moral guidance is scripture. Morality is a human construct. Is is based on the premise of harm. Anybody with an intellect can understand that rape is a horrible thing and thus immoral. Most people easily understand the concept of "this is bad because I wouldn't want it done to me." There is no need to source a higher power to explain this.
Thank you for your conversation/debate.
One thing I found is that it's very hard to convince people of something, people tend to believe what they want to believe and even if that belief is proven wrong, 9 out of 10 people will ignore that and will find some justifyication for still believing in what they believe...
This is true, convince someone is really difficult. Even harder especially if you talk to denial and egoistic person.
"You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.”
Saint Augustine
The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two.
Exactly what I was thinking!
1:50-2:00, within a period of 10 sec, Dr. Peterson gets talked over twice
Thank U😎
Well JP did his fair share of interrupting as well
@@wesleywallace101 Would he have been able to speak otherwise?
He has such a gift given by God, it’s amazing beyond words! And I’m sure he is aware of it, I love how he is so straightforward and to the point!
You are fooled😅
What a stupid comment!!!!
@@reynaldoflores7124 Are you serious? If you don't believe in God, it's then your own problem, so please, let people talk about their beliefs...
@@Jeff.Paborada look in the mirror bro, Jesus Christ Is King & will come back. And you will stand before him when you die, now you have no excuse.. been had no excuse, you see life and the things created. I’m praying for you man, God be w you. 🤍
@Just Chillin' this is a very big question, it's not easy to say God exists or not, you need a lot of work, a really hard working. For me I believe in God the creator of the universe, It began for me more clear than ABCs
I'm a simple man. No, really. When someone presents an idea which, if I myself employed it, it would make my life worse, I distance myself from that someone and their idea. I escape what hurts me. Atheism hurt me. Growing up a proud atheist and for at least a decade thinking I was in the right, I eventually discovered I was in a well of thought that obsessed me with unimportant details of life. I thought pride in deliberate distancing from religion, spirituality and ethics was one of my virtues. And it wasn't until a took a step back and saw what I was doing to myself that I stopped and started to fill my life with things with more substance. "Atheist" is a label void of substance. It's merely an obsession with the unknown that can drive someone to accept upon themselves such a thing.
Same❤️ I was so stupid, i felt like i was invincible and kept hurting other people’s feelings and beliefs. God humbled me so much.
Scrolling down the comments is meaningless!
it kinda is tbh
@@adde6100 also is meaningless to not scroll down the comments...
@@teamatfort444 there is more meaning in scrolling through comments than not doing so
Beleiving that everhthing is meaningless is also meaningless...
I wonder if Susan has ever heard of a book called “Ecclesiastes”.
Vanity vanity....its all vanity. It might make her actually think.
I thought the same thing! Everything is meaningless…
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." The paradox - if you will - is that everything in this world is ultimately meaningless, in a carnal sense (all is vanity), but spiritually it is full of meaning (fear God and keep his commandments).
It’s explained in the New Testament which she will never read.
@@joeloverti672 unfortunately cause she is an atheist
Of course, life could be 'meaningless', but still we can put our own 'meaning' to our lives.
Some writer said "Meaning of life is to find meaning in life."
Why find meaning tho if it's all meaningless? Why does meaninglessness make you so uncomfortable as a human? If it IS all ultimately meaningless, then you're never gonna find actual meaning to fulfill you no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking it's meaningful. You can't make something that doesn't exist. You can only make a simulation of it or a fantasy. It's all a cope.
@@smokingcrab2290 I agree
What Blackmore is saying is, according to her beliefs, there is not inherent meaning in life. She is not saying that there cannot be meaning in life. We create meaning for ourselves and participate in meaning for others.
Let me state one point here which is true for all of us. We all wish we had a family member not even to mention a father like Mr. Peterson to just talk about almost anything.
I absolutely don't. He is a liar indeed. I would not like him as a family member by any stretch of the imagination
Oof I'm not sure if I'd want JP as a family member because I don't talk openly with my family so....
But for sure I'd like to have a chance to talk with him.
You need surrender yourself to god.
Fuuuckkk no. Can you imagine having that foo as a family member, just hyper analyzing everything you say or do, never smiles, never cracks jokes, never just messes around, everything is a fucking intellectual debate. Fuck that! Homie doesn’t know how to let go and enjoy life, everything is a fucking monstrous intellectual conversation with him. Everything has to go through the filter of reason. No wonder he’s so fucking depressed.
@@ramon2008 yeaaaah and you're psychologist and you know if he's depressed. Lol.
- "I'm bored"
- * goes to indentured servitude and immense pressure of 4 years in studying *
I'd say that's borderline insane.
Unless there's enough meaning to forsake salary, or self-employed, way of life for the demands of the next 4+ years.
I assume she meant she already was in university and that was an obligation on her daily life
Those are rational self interests and not based on any religious structure
@@hamzamahmood9565 those?
There's only one - boredom.
Who relieves their boredom by going to a university? Harvard graduates?
@@manubishe Bro it's just an example made on the moment, there could be way much more into it, stop biting onto the other's slip
@@cristhiancamarena9534 a slip?
She's making a case for a principle that connected humanity together since the beginning,
If you're there to debate religious principle, "slip" is not an option.
You don't accidentally slip into a religion, do you ?
This is so great! It gives proof of just how powerful beliefs are and how difficult it is to alter anothers beliefs. Neurobiology. By entertaining an idea, through constant spaced repetition is a patterned plan. What an interesting experience being a human being is!
Appreciate these kinds of intellectual conversations that stay focused on the point and not personal attacks on one another.
It is funny to see people get mad over disagreements lol.
I like them both. Her book bout mémés is good. And I bought his book, seems to be helpful, too. It is nice to listen to smart people having an respectful exchange of thoughts
Exactly, I like both of their arguments. This is the most calm debate between two different views on life. It just put a smile on my face that we do have the meanings to actually be at peace with different strong beliefs and someone to actually challenge that and exchanging thoughts without being mean and toxic.
Her points were definitely not solid.
@@venglomarci which exactly ?
@MrRex Gamer She claims life is meaningless and then talks about how the meaning of life is to fulfill your biological needs. People who actually figure out life is meaningless commit suicide. Why talk to people, why go to work, why eat, why drink, why breath. Why live.
So she states things she does not actually believe and are not true. If the statement was "what is the meaning of life beyond fulfilling your biological means", then yes.
At that level of discussion, such a generalization and oversimplification renders your argument wrong and untrue. And can cause suffering in people who listen to her.
Or the claim "If you meditate, good behavior follows." It is some undefined wishful thinking.
Compare that to JP. "Are you a religious person?" "Define religious person."
@@kofola9145 I think you should read her book as well as The Selfish Gene by Dawkins and many other books. The argument of a senseless or meaningless or purposelessness is still there and won't disappear just because we don't like it. Even the foundations of math can collapse if you question the basic axioms as Gödel did.
Those who live by the body will die by the body. Those who live by the spirit will reap everlasting life.
You hope.
@@jimmythemadostrich8947 amen
Amen, John. And the everlasting life will not be "of the body," either, but of the spirit which is non-physical (no space, no time, no energy, no mass, for these are the dark reflection of God). As a Homo sapiens animal, we rely on the continuity of conscious of the brain. As spirit, we have untouchable consciousness outside of the physical -- within the firm foundation for both halves of physical reality.
@@RodMartinJr I can roll with that. And even though the spirit is eternal, it still needs a "body" in which it is able to experience the rest of creation. Hense, we will get new bodies after the resurrection. Ones that can experience the Creator in His fullness. For now, we live by faith.
@@johnscaduto9332 Thanks! This is a popular myth, because people tend to be attached to physical existence. Your use of "faith" is also not how I would use it; "faith" does not mean "belief." I still have a long way to go, but I have experienced seeing this physical universe without physical eyes. I've experienced dozens of miracles. And I have remembered thousands of years. When you fully live as spirit, instead of the separate, selfish ego, you no longer need a body for continuity of consciousness. In heaven, there is no space, time, energy or mass, and thus no bodies. As Christ said, in heaven there will be no taking of wives. God created man twice -- first in His own image, and then from the dust of the ground. And I'm sure you'll agree with me that God's image is *_not_* one of dust.
Those things helps us Humans extremely. We mostly said those things "Life is meaningless" and now we can learn from those conversations and learn what kind of questions we should ask ourselves. And get answers...
Susan is such a warm and joyful being! She is one of the Greats of atheism/skepticism and she is a female role model for myself.
If she really believed in meaninglessness, she won’t be debating it in the first place.
Exactly.
Her entire premise is just one big contradiction
Well, when you say the truth itself is meaningless, yeah, it's going to be pretty hard to convince others that your viewpoint on the truth is worth listening to.
@@theboombody shes doing basically what a lawyer does defending someone, knowing full well hes a criminal but do it anyway
Excellent observation.
Thinking that you’re worthy of meaning is such a self centred perspective to have. It is religion which has indoctrinated us to believe we are at the centre of the universe. We have been on this earth for such a minuscule amount of time in relation to our ancient ancestors.. to pretend we have all the answers and religion somehow has a monopoly over meaning is ridiculous. To be here, alive , in this very moment in time..is awe inspiring as it is. The universe doesn’t owe as anything, especially not meaning. WE create our own meaning.. through love, endeavours, hardships, relationships, passion, exploration of knowledge… she obviously doesn’t believe everything is meaningless (that’s a strawman). She believes meaning isn’t something we inherit just because we are human.
When I tend to a sick patient and relieve suffering, I doubt that the patient believes that action is meaningless.
Good point. - does you both good too!
That's because even the nihilist can't live as if suffering doesn't matter.
there are plenty of things you can do that are meaningless but also enjoyable. Depends on your context.
It might mean something to you guys but in the context of the universe, everything you do is meaningless.
Loved how civil this conversation was!
"Life is meaningless but I'm going to conduct myself, my behavior, as though that's not true, and get upset when someone says I'm living out a religious thinking."
Peterson is correct. Atheists live out religious behaviors and lives while attacking those who are honest enough to say they're doing the same.
Atheists would call someone who is living out a set of beliefs they can't prove as a religious thinker. Expect when they do it, they're too clever to succumb to that, so it's something more nuanced.
Miserable life believing that everything is meaningless and thinking your an atheist as if you have all there is to know in your 2 pound brain. Jordans view is much wise because it's simply in other words "I know that I know nothing" which means your accepting our human limitations and your open to learn as much as you possibly can about the infinite galaxy/reality.
I find comfort in believing everything is meaningless. I don't find it miserable. Being an athiest doesn't mean one believes they know everything. I'm pretty sure if one's an athiest, they believe in science and the basis of scientific discovery is first understanding there's alot unknown in our universe. If all the science enthusiasts go we know everything, then scientific development stops there. So atheists don't think they know everything and are always open for the possibilities that the universe might throw at us.
Atheists live their lives completely mislaigned from their worldview. Weird.
religion does nothing to solve the problem, all it does is tell peope that they have this magic meaning that god has bestowed on them and yet ever demonstrates the truth of any of it.
life has as much meaning as you give it, there is no need for a bible or quran to tell you to love your family and friends.
@@bolshoefeodor6536 just like everyone else! :D
says a lot when someone cannot enjoy the things in life and his work, when he has to lie to himself that he has an INTRINSIC purpose mandated by the transcendental "divine". what if your assigned purpose is to be a loser in life as life lesson for others? theists would embrace that pathetic purpose, since to them being a subservient drone is better than having no one to dictate your life, hence you're free to decide your own destiny. how sad & pathetic.
there's nothing suggesting "I know that I know nothing" in someone who has faith in something he has no certainty of. believing in something you have no evidence for, is the exact opposite of the intellectual humility in "I know that i know nothing"
If that is true, that life holds no "meaning", then it logically follows that her statement is also packed full of meaninglessness and is nonsensical. So why should we try to have a meaningful conversation about how meaningless life is?
Because she doesn't even know the definition of meaning. She is high on materialism, surfing the coolness of discarding such abstract notions, no materialist has ever tried to fathom, from the worldview, like it's nothing, not realizing, that it contradicts everything about her as a person. It's cool to say such loud theses, while supporting it with scientific thoughts, almost noone can disprove, but JP has put the "almost" in the "almost noone can disprove", and that's awesome in many ways.
Which is true, on an objective basis. There's a difference between the meaning that JP is talking about (an objective meaning of life) and the meaning that Susan is talking about (subjective meaning).
@@sergiarts MEANING IS MEANING! LETS NOT SPLIT HAIRS NOW !!!
@@whitekaren7742 "let's not analyse any further just in case I'm wrong about this !!!"
@@sergiarts WHO CARES IF YOUR WRONG OR RIGHT ?
That’s a miserable outlook on life from this lady. This is what breeds depression, anxiety, and suicide. World view and application of worthlessness leads to a lack of self efficacy. This lack of morality and self worth is what leads to cultural depression like we are living in now.
Speak for yourself
Religion did not invent morality and humans are not the only creatures that exhibit moral and immoral behavior. The evidence for a supreme and invisible being has never been proven. The burden is on the believer to prove their theory - and their current "evidence" is woefully inadequate.
@@kdhsc The op didnt mention religion, God or any other related term though. He never implied that religion invented anything, or that an invisible and supreme being is in any way related to religious dogma.
@@dingbop963 It's the truth bro😂😂😂 just because you haven't done it doesn't mean a bunch of people haven't.
Very interesting and informative
She doesn't listen or answer his questions, just thinks of what she's going to say next :/
Nah, they’re having a decent conversation. She does answer some of his questions. It’s actually pretty nice to see discourse like this compared to the absolute bullshit that is on the news.
@@themeat8624 i wouldn't want to have a conversation with her
"those meanings are constructed by myself"
even if that's accurate, you have still accepted a meaning to everything, even if you constructed it, it's still there, so its not meaningless
Dont see how that pertains to a higher power.
Her point is that those meaning are not an objective fact, but rather a careful (or not) manifestation of her neurobiology or consciousness (whatever that is).
Yes but the point is that meaning is subjective and not objective.
In other words there is no "meaning" in the universe. It just is.
@@drquantum6548 subjective or objective, its still meaning, whether it was there to begin with or had to be constructed.
@@jackadams3878 The conversation revolves around the existence of a higher power which applies that "meaning" to us all. If meaning is self constructed and has a different definition for each individual, how does that prove that it was brought on by higher power?
This is probably the first time I kinda agree with both parties....and this is a breath of fresh air as compared to other debates with Jordan Peterson where he is constantly attacked.
meaning is such a vauge word... its pointless to even think about if existance is meaningless or not IT JUST IS and nobody really knows why or how even if they pretend they do ... but one think thats undeniable is that reality is fascinating and beautiful!
Dr. Peterson in just one of many, 'hold my beer' moments throughout his career.
😁
I used to be pretty nihilistic, listening to her now it just strikes me how sad it sounds. It feels like there's something there as well that if life is meaningless you neither have to believe it nor make a case for it.
Nihilism is basically saying "killing yourself is fine because you don't matter and all the people that will suffer and grieve your death don't matter either". Only thing keeping them alive is probably sexual activity.
Quite a polite conversation between two completely different principles of living. Very refreshing.
The universe is meaningless, and nothing we do, in the grand scheme of things, matters in the least. That does not, however, mean that I can't have drives, goals, and desires. I'm very invested in a book right now, and that entire world is constructed, meaningless. It will fulfill nothing for me in my own life, but I am invested in it anyway because I, myself, find value in it despite its meaninglessness. Why does the fact that the result doesn't matter mean that I shouldn't find joy in the journey?
The assertion that life is meaningless is a faith claim, and living such a life is a performative contradiction.
can u elaborate
@@pejv7903 saying that life is meaningless like saying there is no god is a faith claim which means you dont believe that there is a purpose in this world or life, saying life is meaningless is the most extreme way to say that there is no point in existing, but even still existing means that you fundamentally contradicted that assertion, because if life is meaningless and god doesnt exist, what is the point on living? why doesnt she kill herself? because she doesnt want to die? but she already stated that life is meaningless, she shouldnt feel fear of death or have any emotions for that matter, that is why that mentality is inhuman, there is no person in the world who can wholeheartedly live thinking nothing matters, because just by living you are contradicting yourself.
@@streptococo4735 that's so dumb to think man. "Just by living you contradict yourself saying life is meaningless". So what do you expect of such a person, to cease existing? Kill themselves because life has no meaning, no clear goal set?
I don't agree with that kind of stupid reasoning. I think we can think life is meaningless, yet still get on with it. Actually if anything, the only real meaning to life is just to simply be alive, and that's it. But can that count as a real meaning? Is not 'not existing' enough to give life a meaning? Because that's essentially what it's like without life, you don't exist. It's the same after, you don't exist.
It's darkness and nothingness, you're born, got however much time you have on this planet, with many variables like the lifestyle you lead, accidents, murder, diseases and so on and then after you die that's it. Nothing again.
berryryder I do agree but I don’t think you actually countered their argument rather u stated what you thought without giving reason to back it up.
@@thehazardheath8558 Because what else is there to say?
Life has absolutely no meaning, bar for the simplicity of just being alive.
It's true that as humans we do our best to give it meaning so it makes sense, so we have an actual reason to push through. It's the same with religion, people use it to justify all this, life, existence. To make a little sense out of it.
There's no clearl goal in life, no pre-determined path. It's not like a movie with a set storyline and already determined events, or like a book, a video game. Other than not "not existing", we don't have anything. That's why humans make shit up to feel better about it.
Love JP. You made her circle where she had to laugh it off at the end. A lightbulb went off her head saying he caught out my circular argumentation.
This.
The funny thing is spreading the meaning of meaninglessness is meaningful in itself
It's interesting how Peterson just nailed her with simple words, precise logic & sharp intellect. No fanciful big words from him.
That's because they are not saying anything new , and Peterson knows all the angles they try and play.
@@markanthony3275 No, it's because JP just says just one thing over and over - "you're a christian only you don't know it", he is the most obnoxious debater I ever saw in a high profile debate.
@@ivanvnucko3056 There could be another reason you don't like him. Have you considered that ? He could be right in what he says. He doesn't put it in exactly the same words as another well known and brilliant psychologist/psychiatrist , Dr Jeffrey Satinover, who says that "all seek the eternal object ( God)but know it not" and that "when a person does not attach meaning to it's proper eternal object but attaches it to some instinctive form of gratification, the pursuit becomes compulsive, even addictive and ultimately monstrous. In drugs the drug addict, in alcohol , the alcoholic, in sex, the philanderer, in winning, the gambler and in food the compulsive eater...all seek the one God and know it not; all thus become idolators". Dr. Petersen says people are Christians they just don't know it. Dr Satinover merely says that everyone seeks the meaning and purpose that only can come from God, but when they try and find that some where else, the result is always destructive. The Bible says that everyone starts their life with an evil human nature and is naturally separated from God, and can't know God...unless they make a choice to accept the person and work of Jesus Christ ( accept that you are a born sinner, and that Jesus Christ died to take the judgement God had for you, upon himself ) which then restores their relationship with God.
@@markanthony3275 What he says is so vague and abstract that it almost doesn't matter if he is right in some sense. Did you see Sam Harris's Cookbook analogy to JP's "theories"?
More importantly this is just a "dick way" to argumentation. "You inside agree with me, you just don't know it yet...". It's just frustrating. Try to empathize here - imagine you debating with some scientologist, when he in the end always says: "You don't believe me now, but your Thetan inside is seeking Xenu and wants to reunite with him..." or some such BS.
@@markanthony3275 he is a fucking grifter...
If everybody was thinking like her this world would be in a total anarchy... I swear some normal people have way more common sens than some 'scientist'
😂 she is way above your level of understanding
I saw nihillistic people who are asses and nihillistic people who are decent folks,I saw christian people who are asses and saw good among them as well,I saw atheists way better than a muslim and saw an atheist who is a wicked person and vice versa.
I guess at the end of the day,labels do not matter,what comes as good always stays as good and what comes as bad always stays bad.
They are not against one another,that is why I never judge people by their philosophy of their life or their religion or culture,only by the way they act and behave,sometimes religion can make us more humaine sometimes not!
We can not get a solid conclusion from anything.
Deep down some try to be good in their life even they could not convince themselves to see life meaningful.
I feel God is something really beyond all philosophies or even mainstream religions.
Trust me,if it were a heaven,he would not go harsh on for example an atheist scientist who did all he good in order to progress like Stephen Hawkins,you can see good and bad clearly in people as soon as you start knowing them,and these debates,they all are a part of our progressikm
@@rotorblade9508 Putting people down isn't a great way to defend your hero. Adding a laughter emoji doesn't help your case either.
Even the act of adding color to her hair has a meaning, and a purpose.
Not total anarchy, extinction
This is a cool debate where you can see the points from both philosophies and both speakers are respectful and articulate.
Yeah but some of the ladies points don’t feel right to me….sounds like she’s suicidal.
I want to hear the whole debate.
If there is no meaning how can there be purpose? If there is no purpose why does she write books and teach. To do these things you need to be motivated by something and the root of that motive is where your treasure is.
Then you haven't paid attention to what she said.
Rationally there's no meaning, biologically we have desires and insticts that drive us out to act the way we do in our everyday life, ultimately to avoid suffering, life is meaningless, but suffering sucks, which one would you choose? Not eat and starve or get up from the bed and get food
@@cristhiancamarena9534 sorry, can’t ignore reality. Many unbelievers like to play pretend that their is no meaning but we know that is false. Humans need meaning to survive. It is in our DNA. Without it we know what happens. They commit suicide .
@@onestepaway3232 and what's meaning? You are misunderstanding the point of our argument, its not whether people would be better or not with a porpuse, but whether that porpuse is empirical and set on stone as an objective truth, which isn't, you set your own meaning and that makes it subjective, and objectively, they dont exist outside of your own reality.
@@cristhiancamarena9534 lol, so you admit then that non material meaning exist? I don’t care how you want to classify it. Meaning has nothing to do with biology all I’m saying.
Would be great if lady waited her turn and let Jordan speak. Heez, she just kept cutting him off mid sentence.
That's how those kind impress the empty headed youth.
because peterson was talking nonsense...
@@Darusdei it's only "nonsense" if your IQ is below 90. Lol
Peterson was doing that as well
@@9usuck0 ok
If you know what it's like to suffer.... Then helping other's makes life worth living.
I sympathize with Blackmore's position. The idea that just because being in itself is meaningless doesn't go against the maxim Peterson advocates for - to be precise, the idea that one needs to take on personal responsibility and reject absolute freedom in favor of rules. The idea that life is meaningless shouldn't be reduced to the ramblings of a hippie taking a huge bong rip. If life's meaning was indeed easy to grasp and find in objective reality, the Greek tradition of seeking virtue wouldn't exist. While existentialism (by which I understand the idea that people assign meaning to existence) can lead to nihilism and self-destructive behavior, as Jordan noted, it's a very ambitious philosophical project, with the greatest philosophical minds like Nietzsche and Kierkegaard being attached to it.
You know the lady is wrong when she says that “life is meaningless” but yet she thinks what she is saying is meaningful
It's like the irony of being both alive and an anti Natalist.
She even considers her viewpoint, which is so meaningless, to be worth arguing over on national TV 🤷♀️🤔😅😅
Idk why but she exudes so much sadness and emptiness, and I barely even understood what she said, as English isn't my native language.
@Kaen the meaning of life is to know your purpose. Everything exist for a reason, and each with their purpose. And to know God.
@@small6859 That definitely aint it. You dont need a purpose. By your sentence all who dont know god live without meaning which is nonsense. Another interesting point you guys seem unable to grasp is: Just because existence itself is meaningless does not mean we cant find meaning in our surroundings. From a systemic perspective all relations we engage in have some level of meaning to us.
I was feeling annoyed listening to this woman but was then taken back by Peterson's calmness and generosity in engaging in this conversation with her. He is a master of honest communication. I definitely need more work in this area.
Just wondering why did you feel annoyed
@@maartenjanez1489 he's still in the first step
The step when he just love whats exactly support his view
I disagree with this woman but everything is good with her
This is just nice conversation
I saw theres 2 type of JP's fans
1. The people who actually love discussion without disrespect the others
2. The people who tired with the "leftists or anything opposite of jp's or conservative way of thinking" so they use JP as a weapon against them
@@maartenjanez1489 I wonder about that too. I disagree with the Atheist woman. But why would someone be annoyed by listening someone's honest straight forward opinion?
Lol you need to watch more DESTROYS LIBTARD WITH FACTS AND LOGIC videos
Urg, Jordan Peterson Fanboys make me want to vomit.
It wasn't a debate, really. No one really took a side and stayed there.
It was just an exchange of sometimes opposing viewpoints by two really wise people (who are probably getting a few bucks for the appearance).
But are they "smart"? That's another issue altogether.
I don't see Blackmore as an athiest, but she does have some valid points.
Peterson is the better debater, as he just sits there and waits for someone to stumble and then quickly pick them apart.
Nobody is the clear "winner" here, but it was an interesting listen.
(But I've heard better "debates" from both of them, honestly.)
Where can I get the full video
Nvm
Someone has posted this below: "The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two." Sums up my feelings perfectly. Blackmore reminds me of Katie Hopkins.
No smart person voluntarily enters a room in which the fascist crackpot Jordan Peterson spreads his extraordinarily stupid drivel.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 cry more
@@thehorde4868 Upto this moment the only one ever to cry in public and claim victimhoood is Jordan Peterson.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 😭😭😭
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 The smart person in this video is the one who in real time calmly and rationally demonstrates the inherent contradictions and logical lapses of the other. He manages to do this even while being interrupted by the increasingly more agitated "academic" whose points are shown to be (ironically) meaningless and incoherent.
As for the assertion that Peterson is a "fascist", this can be repeatedly shown to be false. At least, in the normal sense that people interpret "fascist". I have heard Peterson say, "I don't like Nazis". "Hitler was more evil than what you think". Look at the Queen's University Jordan B Peterson lecture, and see how the protesters tried to block the audience from entering, pounded on the windows the entire talk, and talked about blocking the exits and set the auditorium on fire. Now, you tell me: who was acting like facists?
Susan comes from the perspective that we dont have free will. Body is like a machine. It will do what is programmed for.
Suneesh Susakaran ....Body is like a machine,but we do have autonomy as far as our bodies are concerned!!!....The Fact that you may be feeling sleepy at 3 AM but still struggling to stay awake to complete a research article shows you are not purely at the whims of bodily urges!!!....One can conjecture that it is another bodily tendency to prioritize delayed gratification over instant one,and it's just the body orchestrating things for its future survival or development!!!....But that's debatable as sometimes we do fight our bodily urges to take actions that don't benefit us in any way,say wake up at 5AM to feed a street dog !!!.....
@@constipatedbowels3473 The thought that you need to fight this gratification is not chosen by you. Science has proven that even for a simple task of raising your hand, the brain has already decided it before you are concious of it.
@@ssudhak2 Yes,I am well aware of the illusion of Free will!!!........Every thought that you have and the reaction you are going to have is already getting orchestrated by your body!!!........But on a utilitarian level,how does this knowledge help you???.....Here is what you are either misunderstanding or rationalizing about the notion of free will vs conscious decision making!!!....
We do have the capacity of employing conscious decision making,regardless of the fact that the entire premise of decision making is preordained by the brain!!!......Example,If I am experiencing a sexual urge,I have the option of indulging in it or not indulging in it!!!....
This temptation or primal urge arises from The ID,and the available choices as "to do or not to do" are constructed by my SuperEgo depending on what social,cultural,religious,scientific content it has been exposed to!!!...Finally the Ego has the agency to make that choice !!!......
@@constipatedbowels3473 Yes but is there a ego or a passenger inside my body who can make these choice. Spirituality and science says there is no "I". Brain creates an illusion of Selfhood. Its a hard fact to digest. We are simply at the mercy of our neurons over which we dont have any control. Only mystery is conciousness and how it emerges but conciousness cannot act. It can only be a witness.
@@ssudhak2 The knowledge of No-self doesn't bring any radical changes in preexisting "self",as It is the "self" that still continues to extrapolate utility from the information of NOSELF,for the things it desires(PEACE,CLARITY,BLISS or whatever else)....
For example,Your "self" is trying to assert the facts of NOSELF and FREEWILL to win this argument by getting your point across!!!....
So even we are arguing about SELF vs NOSELF,we are using our "selves" to communicate the idea!!!...when you say it is a hard fact to digest, it's your "Self" which is trying to digest the facts of its illusory construct!!!!....
Self being a nuero-anatomically constructed illusion is just a cold scientific fact ,but it is not a value system to live Life by and certainly not a format for conscious decision making that we face in day to day Life.....!!!...
The lady states that we as people can’t just do nothing even if we believe life is meaningless. But I’d disagree. I’ve seen people slowly waste away as if they didn’t care about anything before. It’s heart breaking and I myself have had days where I was in a depressive state and wouldn’t do anything except for lay in bed all day. Yes, eat and use the bathroom but back to bed to just lay and sleep. It was because I had a feeling of meaning that I was able to regain some motivation to get out of the rut
Wow, she seems more depressed than thoughtful. Instantly criticizes everything said to her with meaningless drivel.
@My Poppy let’s not be careless here. It’s not drivel by any means, it’s quite a powerful argument she’s making, or at least which she’s leaning on. The burden of proof lies on Jordan here, even if there’s reason to believe he’s right.
It is depressing to think there's nothing beyond this life and that's enough for many to think that life is ultimately meaningless.
@@mysigt_ Her only issue is that she teaches people her very depressing philosophy. I believe what she says, but if someone can convince themselves that their is meaning in life why would you want to convince them otherwise? I would never wish the same existential dread I feel everyday on anyone else.
@@jordanp8268 Reality is depressing. Implying that we should be happy and find purpose are children stories. Meaning does not exist in nature anywhere. Inventing it is religion.
@@Tore_Lund Privileged cynicism. Some people need meaning to get them through a life far harder then yours. It's easy to be cynical when you've been on easy mode all your life. The boredom alone would've made me bitter.
Great debate. Being able to have such debate shows that we are an intelligent creature that lives in a complex society built from 200k yrs of human history. We can all live a meaningful life in unity peace and harmony.
Great comment 👍🏿
good comment .
200k? Hardly.
Nialistic: nothing matters so you can do whatever you want.
Essentialistic: nothing matters until you decide what matters and you do that.
Existencialistic: Everything matters, it is a part of the divine plan. Purpose, you play a part in the vast universe. You do what your faith tells you to do.
Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell
Honestly this is nice to see. I’ve never been formerly diagnosed with depression although I have had similar symptoms with it. As someone who is honestly feeling a lot better now. Just know that it isn’t a lie we tell ourselves. It’s what meaning we as people put into our lives that is true. Wether god is real or isn’t. Wether we believe there isn’t one or that it’s beyond our comprehension.
It is the truth that we put meaning in our lives with our goals, desires and dreams. If we are nihilistic, we will feel nothing but pain... we gotta hold onto better beliefs, ideas and hopes then that if we as people are ever going to be happy.
At the end of the day. At least when it comes to that moment. We make what we believe to be our reality. Truth is always important and should be first in all manner of things. But in this case. If it involves our moral being and our ability to continue to live and love. The truth in that respect doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if there is god or not. Doesn’t matter if there is anything or nothing. What matters is what we believe.
What we see and hear and choose what is true to us. It is both the miracle and curse of us humans. We have the ability to think beyond our own existences and feel these ways. We may have the parts of us that feel this way and we can question that. But ultimately it is up to us as people to go and feel this certain way... and it is in our capability to change that for the better. Good day.
the mediator needs to hold his horses and actually be a mediator!
Lol
I think the odd thing about 'acting out a religious structure' implies that having value and idealogy need to go hand in hand with the existence of god. It often does-- that's why religion exists-- but I think you can clearly seperate the values, idealogies of religion while removing the existence of a god and still the actions someone would perform be unchanged. So the question becomes, how do you accept that other people have similar ideology as you but just don't have a belief in a god or gods? Clearly, biologically, culturally, we want to lean towards these types of "goodness", religion has just been the most codified way that we've done it IS religion, which has history and religious texts built around it...some of which may be ultimately superfluous to the ultimate goal of generating good. Of course other elements, like unifying, community...are still very valuable.
Have admired JP so many times,
But this comment is to admire her for her behaviour while debating.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you mam 🙏🏻
She said she goes on because “what else are you gonna do; you are gonna get bored” well for something to not be boring it has to have meaning. If you disagree with me go stare at a wall all day. You will notice a difference. That difference is meaning.
She doesn't even disagree with you. She just says that there is an inherent meaninglessness in life, you can acknowledge. That doesn't mean that you cannot give something meaning yourself. If you disagree you must have thought more about thsi than tons of the most prestigious philosophers
That’s exactly what JP is saying. Once you start creating that meaning you start living the logos
@@mikef5238 you are right and i didn't ellaborate. He creates a necessity between logos and giving something meaning. I am not sure if that is quasi religious. At least definitely jot in the way religion is usually defined or conceptualised. I respect a lot of his stuff but he seems to have a general problem with the concept of religion , and its weird that he is on this show because every time someone tries to nail him on religion he deviates strongly from the concept normally promoted here
Wonderful, polite discussion! Really refreshing to hear such meaningful topics addressed ;)
If your real-life response to tragedy is "get over it" instead of something like "that's awful that happened, but what can you do?" You might have a personality disorder. Or just be a huge jerk... what is meaning? What is value to these people? They seem to paradoxically describe life as having absolutely no value and then sometimes relative value. You can't have no value and also some value. It's just relative value. Some things are valuable to some people and worthless to other people. That means the thing generally is valuable to someone, or something.
There is an intrinsic impulse behind the laws of nature and lift and love. People who focus what they can get OUT of life miss that....it's what you put IN to life is what makes your life a success or failure.
She convinced me that HER life is meaningless.
She wouldn't be sitting here to have a conversation if life is meaningless. Life is only meaningless when you're dead, it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it, but life is purposeless at all ends.
Life is meaningless when we're dead? Says who? Why is it meaningless?
@@philosopher0076 was your life meaningful when you weren't born? LOL
She's talking about objectively. And she's right. Her having this conversation stems from a subjective "meaning" of life. Not an objective one.
"it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it" is an objective truth claim. If it's not, and just your opinion, then it has no relevance to anyone.
Her meaning is the self flattery that "she knows lots", otherwise she wouldn't spend her time trying to teach others and discuss/debate with JP. She's a big bag of wind.