The Great Empire of the Dawn
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- čas přidán 7. 10. 2016
- The Long Night, Azor Ahai, Strange Stone, Dragonlords & ancient bloodlines. This ep w/Mythical Astronomy of Ice & Fire has it all!
LmL's Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: bit.ly/2dSSqU8
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Link to the Q&A on Sat Oct 22nd: bit.ly/2dD4ie9
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Durran Durrandon's "Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn" Essay: bit.ly/2dVGNQD
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Also available on iTunes: apple.co/2dCB7aV - Zábava
The Blood Betrayal story reminds me of Ar-Farazon and the Fall of Numenor-usurping a sibling's/cousin throne, practicing black magic, worshiping a new "dark" deity, causing the wrath of the true gods, who turn away from mankind forever.
Oh my sweet jesus, I just discovered this channel through reddit. I've spent countless hours across ASOIAF forums and wikis, and am now stoked I have 240+ hrs to geek out on here. Awesome video, thanks!
Hey thanks, and welcome aboard!
This is my comfort video in these dark times. The Long Night is coming for our world too but your guys videos brings the light
Brother read One piece or Attack on Titan you will feel much better! JK
When Tyrion meet Illyrio, he notices that he has rings on his hands: onyx, opal, tiger's eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond and a green pearl. Could it simply be a large man with a larger bank account and the desire to show off, or might it fit into the larger plot? I'm thinking about Daenerys being the only character compared to amethyst. Maybe Illyrio thinks he can wear Daenerys like a ring but Aegon is different.
Those colours keep appearing over and over again, so it's very unlikely to be a coincidence
... how bout milisandre telling arya "eyes of green, eyes of blue, eyes of..." as such the gods predating the dawn
@@endgamecaliberwarframe-pc6943 please never mention the show again.
Uuuu up with you xszxz
Hello hello Sarah Play Apple I have there is Emma Fälth or Albin I thought the finger at me oh hi Play playlist
I come back to this episode multiple times a year. This is my fav topic. Really would love a show about this time period. Even if they don't call it GoT.
These are my absolute favorite kind of episodes from you guys! Getting into the mythical, historical, etc.
I also love LmL here as always. I very much enjoy his essays.
I've been hyped to see this, it didn't disappoint! Thanks and love y'all. ❤
Very kind of you to say! Happy to provide the quality entertainment! It's a really big piece of the ASOIAF backstory puzzle, I think, and I am excited to see what we might learn in the next book. Euron might go on some shade-of-the-evening-induced rant about the Bloodstone Emperor in some TWOW chapter, we just do not know. :)
This was really great! I came here from The Disputed Lands. This was recommended by her in one of her videos! Some connections I hadn't made yet, some suspicions I've had that you guys have too. I will say this though after watching your (and hers) video, the HBO show and reading the books, I firmly believe Weirwoods and the trees whose leaves make Shade of the Evening potion are cousins. Weirwood gradually petrifies into hard white stone after it dies. I suspect Shade of the Evening trees do too (The Disputed Lands), and when they petrify into hard, black stone that drinks the light, they also appear oily or maybe exude a small bit of oily-looking "sap" as they go through the petrification process. If Shade of the Evening trees were once as plentiful in Essos as Weirwoods were once in Westeros, then they would have been used for building. In the yards around the House of the Undying are groves of these trees. When Dany, Jorah and her bloodriders go there it's said how even during the day there is almost no light in the groves and the trees seem to "drink the light". Weirwood paste, Shade of the Evening potion; both these tree species are magical. Why wouldn't the Most Magical city in the world be built from magical trees? Since we don't know the exact length of the petrification process, I'm gonna hypothesize that the buildings weren't oily at first. But consider this - knowing what we know about Asshai and the Bloodstone Emperor do we really think that people who practiced dark and foul arts would care if their city was gloomy and creepy? Wouldn't that serve their purposes better? Or maybe things didn't get this creepy in Asshai until after the Bloodstone Emperor was defeated? I've rambled too long, lol, it's so wonderful finding videos and people talking about the mysteries and puzzles of ASOIAF that I love too! I hope you guys are doing really well in 2022. Have a great weekend. :))
Maybe I missed it, but I think you left out an excellent piece of supporting evidence - "Edric Shadowchaser" : When you linked the names still given to kings of the Diaspora of the Dawn Empire to the various names for the long night hero my mind immediately put the story together: -Edric Shadowchaser was the last name unaccounted for by a specific group descended from the Empire -Daynes still name their children Edric -Daynes have purple eyes, sometimes silver hair, sometimes black hair, pre-date Valyria, and are of mysterious origin -Daynes have a sword, castle, and history that suggest ancient power ---Daynes are probably a lost branch of the diaspora and may also be descended from the original long night hero, or one of them if there were several / a group) Obviously you guys got to the Daynes=protovalyrian=probably-EotD-descendants thing, but I didn't hear you link them to Edric Shadowchaser! Also, the other Edric I can think of (Storm) is linked to Storm's End / Baratheons / Durrandons, also marked by you as having potential protovalyrian descent. Phenomenal video as always, full of incredible and sharp insights. This one appeared by its name to be tangential, but was at the heart of everything!
Right on William. It was really hard to decide what to include and what not to, there is so much that relates to so many different things. But to your point, yes, I have certainly noticed that Eldric is close to Edric Dayne. There's also a Ulrick Dayne who was a SOTM, and the Starks have an Edric Snowbeard and an Elric Stark. I have been saying on my podcast for a while that I think Eldric Shadowchaser may be the Westerosi name for Azor Ahai, and also the same person as the Last Hero, or perhaps the father of the LH, etc. I tend to think the Last Hero is tied to both Starks and Daynes.
Shit just got real.
I know. Suddenly everything just got awesome all up in youtube
This is AWESOME!
GrayArea thanks for the link. Watching while drinking my juice🍷 to get through the long night .
About 5 months ago (just checked) in the comments section of the Asshai video, I proposed the theory that what we think of as Valyria was actually founded by refugees from Asshai, most likely led by Azor Ahai or one of his family members. I am so thrilled to see the three of you delve into a similar concept to a depth that I simply could not. I absolutely loved this video.
Yes, the pieces are all there to be found, good job on spotting them. I've seen a few people put them together since I wrote my original essay last year about the dawn age dragonlords. Once you put it all together, I think it's pretty clear are pretty hard to argue against. It makes too much sense and explains too many things in satisfactory fashion. And at the center of it all - and we tried to emphasize this at the end - we need a way for the Azor Ahai story to be relevant to Westeros. We've all been looking for that since book 2. I am pretty sure this is the answer, or at least the beginning of the answer. There is still a ton of holes... basically, the War for the Dawn and the story of the Long Night. We know it probably involves dragonlords, so how does that fit into Westerosi LN history? The first NW and the LH's group of 13? That is why we are going to have the Q&A / discussion episode as a follow up, to talk about some of this stuff.
Here's a great example of a very well-written theory which makes most of the same connections as we did, from Reddit user "sangeli," definitely worth a read: www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4ti5rb/spoilers_extended_out_of_asshai_part_14/
And my original from last year on Westeros is here: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127025-astronomy-of-planetos-fingerprints-of-the-dawn/
And of course Elio postulated some long lost common ancestor of both Valyria and House Dayne years ago, as we noted at the end of the episode. :)
I'm definitely going to have to check these out. I knew there was no way in hell that I was the only person to think of something like that, but I was excited because it was the first major theory that I came up with on my own, rather than having seen or read someone else proposing it. I really didn't know where I could read up on it though. I'm a little embarrassed to say, I don't think I've ever been on Reddit.
When I wrote that original comment in the other video, I was hoping for a comment saying either "nice catch", or "sorry, timeline doesn't work." I mean, I had said that the thought came to me from having watched the Asshai video a handful of times. If that was enough for me to think that, then there's no way that at least one (more likely all) of you didn't consider the same possibility while researching and putting the video together. The only way that wouldn't have happened is if you had already considered it previously, but discovered something that would have disqualified the idea.
Anyway, that response never came, so imagine how thrilled I was to watch this latest video. No quick yeah or no, but an in-depth discussion from Aziz, Ashaya, and yourself that took it a hell of a lot deeper than I could have. Each one of you knows more about this world than I most likely ever will. In fact, most of my knowledge comes from History of Westeros, Radio Westeros, and (since your first team up with them) Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire (at lucifermeanslightbringer.com plug, plug) Seriously though LML, really enjoy the podcast. I might not be sure of all of the theories you throw out there, but they are all incredibly interesting and researched to an astounding level. I imagine Martin himself listening to some of them and thinking, "Wow, I wish I had been going that deep when I wrote that."
After listening to this episode I'm thinking that some scholars of Asshai figured out that the Valyrians were descended from the Amethyst Empress and that that bloodline would be key to protecting the world during the next Long Night. Thus they decided to teach them how to master dragons.
All of this makes me wonder who the so-called "God-on-Earth" really was. I'm starting to think his parents were actually gods in this world (or maybe aliens), which is pretty incredible.
Excellent (Burns' voice)
Smithers... massage my brain.
Dany and Jon both half Dayne. Dany being the princess that was promised, Jon being Azor Ahai. The Daynes can be a House of the Dawn age, dragonlords, keeper of Lightbringer.
How are either of them half Dayne.
@@joshstroven8284 in the books canon Jon Snow is the son of Ashara Dayne and Dany is a Targaryens and her great great grandfather is Aegon unlikely is son of a Dayne.
@@sophiawilson8696 So Danaerys isn't "half" Dayne then, not even a quarter. And if you think that Jon isn't the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar you're delusional.
I miss episodes like this. 👍
Hyrkoon must be a reference to Yyrkoon, the cousin of Elric of Melnibone and wielder of the sword Mournblade (the brother sword of Stormbringer).
The Bloodstone Emperor betraying the Amethyst Empress even mirrors Yyrkoon betraying Elric, which led to the destruction of the captial city of Melnibone, Imrryr.
Edit: I guess you knew that already. Lol.
This is so exciting the great empire of the dawn is one of my favorite aspects of ASOIAF lore Thank you for uploading
Theres really a title: "The Keeper of the Buzz". You gotta love Westeros
I always think of the oily blackstone whenever I cook with a non-stick pan, Haha
forever changed the way I look at non-stick pans :)
Woo! Let's do this folks! I'll be back in a couple hours to see what excellent questions / new crackpot theories you all can bring!
This one was a culmination of several months' work, so we certainly hope you enjoy it.
loved the asshai episode, and GEOTD was probably my favourite section of your essays so I'm excited af
Right on Miguel, then you'll recognize some of these ideas, but this presentation benefits greatly from the scrutiny of Aziz and Ashaya and our collaborative refinement of these ideas. Clearfield brought the serious mojo with his maps and animations, so all in all I am very pleased with how it all came out.Basically, I felt like these ideas are too important to confine them tot he context of my mythical astronomy podcasts, so I thought bringing it to History of Westeros was a good idea... and it worked out great, I think. Let me know when you're done.
If you're still around, there is one question I have. The video mentioned that GRRM himself *confirmed* that the reason the noble houses maintain their stereotypical features is due to magic. Is there a quote for this somewhere?
I have been looking forward to this episode for months! I know how I'm spending Sunday morning before football!
Just rewatched this today at a friends house and I have to say I never realised how desperately I need to reread Twoiaf!! Great job Ashaya and Aziz as usual. LML, I have read some of your stuff but I definitely need to check your podcast out. Thanks for the great podcast guy! As always it was a very informative and enjoyable experience 😉 I'm looking forward to more Blackfyre stuff and maybe LML could collaborate? Just saying ... Thanks again 😊
Also! LML, for some reason you remind me if Eli Roth! That's a huge compliment from me btw. Just putting that out there.
haha, the eyebrows.
One of my favorite ASOIAF videos!
How did I not know about this channel sooner? Good stuff
Maybe the lands around Asshai were once fertile (comparable to the Vale), but the introduction of Ghost Grass from Sothoryos(?) and it overtook their crop fields as an invasive species, ruining the city's ability to feed itself. So at that point, Asshai would be dependent on it's imperial holding for imports. When the "barbarians" & beast began pushing on the fringes of the empire, Asshai starves. As for the nearby Stygai, perhaps the sorcerers of Asshai unleashed their magics to prevent the invasions of their lands and it got out of control, twisting the city. That the Dothraki have fear of the Ashai'i, it may indicate they were on of the invading forces (presumably with the Jogos Nhai) that pushed into the Shadow Lands, only to be attack by sorcery.
John Jackson I'm a firm believer in the ghost grass being toxic and an invasive species of plant but it's from sothorys or is that another theory?
What do you make of the fact that the description of the ghost grass and the sword Dawn are pretty much an exact match? That's the thing that always tickled my curiosity about Ghost Grass.
How do you feel about gjost grass being snow, and based on a Dorthraki misunderstanding ...
My thinking is that Azor Ahai's prophecy is the retelling of a spell casted to bring forth the end, resulting in the waking of stone dragons (volcanos). Nissa Nissa represents the romanticization of a human sacrifice and the Red Sword emphasizes the bloody deed. Euron seems to think as much........I'm also interested in the Great Empire and this is where my thoughts tend to drift all over the place: The names of the Great Emperors reference a type of mineral or gemstone. And the last emperor worshipped a mysterious black stone, which seemed to have magical properties. With this in mind I recall when Tyrion pondered why the dragonlords didn't look West where the wealth was...and I ask why they were so hell bent on mining...what were they looking for? Ahhhhhhhh
Right when i start to get impatient with you guys waiting for this episode boom you deliver a 3 hour lecture on probably one of the most interesting subjects in the lore. super awesome!! btw those animated map explanations when you were talking about azor ahais different names were really cool and added a lot to the experience. Great job again👍👍
Right on Michael, we were impatient with ourselves too - but as you can see, it's a big topic touching on a lot of different ideas with many potential side-branches to get lost it. It was definitely good to go over it with Aziz until we hammered out the best order. I am very happy with how it came out and now we have something which is accessible to everyone I think. :)
I cannot get enough of these videos. Thank the gods (old and new) that I still have all your old videos to accompany me on my commutes. It is very much appreciated
Terrific video! Been waiting a long time for this
I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS SINCE THE RELEASE OF THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE. YES YES YES YES
Great parallel that of the Great Empire also practicing slavery. The God-on-Earth being carried in a palanquin by his hundred wives always struck me as some kind of slavery or some kind of servitude akin to salt wives.
This has to jump right up there in my top 3 favorite ASOIAF videos. Good job! I love the parallels you can draw here: the forces of light working stone/glass to melt it, fuse it and make weapons out of it. Not much is different in the way the forces of night seem to use ice for similar purposes.
This video has me picturing dragons in high viz vests and hardhats perched around a giant blue print, and a connex converted to an office for the Faceless Men HR department.
My phone's internet is so slow that I had to take breaks and watch this episode over the course of three days. Totally worth it. you guys are awesome. I can't wait to see how the story plays out and how close you get to the truth. Keep up the good work!
The bloodstone emperor and the knights king has some interesting parallels. I think the tiger woman the bloodstone emperor married was actually an other.
Faaaack, I'm meant to be doing last minute coursework today!
you guys did it.... amazing, and thanks for telling me it would be done about a month ago. you were pretty close. awesome. I have been waiting this.
Absolutely fantastic. The more we learn about the GEOTD, the more some of the mysteries of ASOIAF begin to come together and make sense.
Thanks for the tip to read Durran Durrandon's essay, that was also really enjoyable to read.
Right on, Durran's other big theory is one which compares Melisandre to the Night's King corpse queen. I think that one is a super important breakthrough. He's talking about how the corpse queen might have been to ice what Mel is to fire, and I agree.
Eldric Shadowchaser might be the Last Hero of Westerosi legend.
I just finished the series and found ur channel wanted to say I really love what y'all do. Your portion of Dani's weird vision in the House of Undying is the best explanation I've come across and that discription in The World of Ice and Fire of the YiTi rulers pre-The Long Night matches the strangers trying to tell her of Dragons in the Vision. I really think these visions from shade of the evening is crucial to the story and I'm excited another piece of their puzzle of past future and things that never will be has come together this whole episode was a epic meld of crackpot and Lore. I look forward to the days when u revisit this topic while we are waiting for Dreams of Spring.
This is the first video I've watched from you guys and I am blown away! Amazing, I appreciate all of the hard work that was put into this and can't believe you don't have more views/likes. Apparently I'm in the minority, but I thought the narrator was fantastic. Can't wait to watch the rest of your videos although it may take me until the next book releases (forever).
Thanks Tom, welcome to the channel! (I was a big fan of MySpace!)
I kind of thought that Qarth may play into this more, with the Tourmaline Brotherhood and their association with gem stones, the appearance of the Qartheen people as also being pale, and the red waste surrounding it comparable to also being a part of the empire of the dawn similar to the desert where the Patrimony of Harkoon once ruled.
Oh man, Qarth is something I would have liked to have been able to fit in. There's a lot of cool symbolism and old magic there, and I definitely think they fancy themselves as carrying on the GEotD legacy to some extent. In fact the fake, glorified version of the Undying Dany sees right before she sees the real ones - this glorious kings and queens with gemstones in their armor and whatnot - might represent the Undying's memory of what GEotD people were like. And yes, what is the Tourmaline Brotherhood but a sect founded on the wise teachings of the famous Tourmaline Emperor? LoL, I have speculated it.
The problem is that none of it can be firmly tied to anything - it's super suggestive, but doesn't really lead anywhere, except to say that a little of the GEotD culture may survive in a mutated form at Qarth. The GEotD would surely have passed through the Jade Gates from time to time, so it's eminently reasonable to speculate on some line of cultural transmission there. perhaps we will discuss that in the Q&A... you have any other thoughts about Qarth?
Nah just some basic thoughts remembering it, I haven't read in a while but was trying to remember if there were dragon bones in the dead cities in the other Qaatheen cities. Just the mysteriousness of it, with these ties interweaving seem like it could be another kind of diaspora situation from GEotD. I was also trying to recall the crown they gave Dany and what that was made of. Your right it's kind of hard to make concrete ties (and my time is sadly wanting for any further tie ins), but it seems like the lack of mention in world of ice and fire and the other coincidences may be for some reason, but hard to speculate.
This was such a great episode. I'm inspired to create again.
Are you a writer, Don?
No I make youtube videos. I actually did one with Aziz a few months ago on my channel.
Oh right on man, I'll check you out. ;)
Greatly appreciated.
man thanks so much for saying this, that's seriously the best compliment I can imagine. Glad you're a part of the creator community.
great analysis guys - I would like to add an extra piece of evidence to the Lannisters being descended from the GEotD and adding to the magical flaming swords theme. When Jaime has his dream on the weirwood stump & he is in the bowels of Casterley rock conversing with his ancestors, he ends up holding a pale flaming sword - some people theorise that this means he might be AA but I think it's much more to do with what you were discussing here. Also regarding the Lannisters eyes, all of the names of the gemstone emporers can be found in a green form not just Jade, but onyx, tourmaline, opal etc. too.
Great call, and I just love the idea of "ancestor dreams" as a general concept.
this was my first of your videos and it was amazing. thank you.
Welcome aboard!
I wish this would be the spin off series that will start when GOT ends.
this was your best video yet! loved the topic, you guys are awesome!
Great episode guys. Can't wait for the live Q&A!
Love all your videos, both lml and history of westeros, but I gotta say these collaborations are fantastic, definitely worth watching and rewatching! Thanks for all your hard work you guys!
Hi Aziz, just to let you know that this is my CZcams handle... from Martin Lewis. Thanks for the shout, I've had plenty of welcome traffic on my Echoes of Ice and Fire page since the episode aired. I'll be putting some nice posts together over the next month, in relation to the episode, compiling artwork relative to The Great Empire of the Dawn".
Now to listen to the rest of the episode...
That all sounds fucking fantastic man! I'll be sure to post a link to your page from my FB here sometime soon, and I'll look forward to all that. :)
Dany becomes queen, Euron betrays her and brings the long night, Jon saves the day
Dany = amethyst empress
Euron = bloodstone
Jon = azor ahi
Yeah's not unreasonable speculation by any means :)
There theories that the Blood Stone Emperor and Ahor Ahi are the same person.
You guys have great content and always look forward to listening to more!
I can’t get over how good this episode is. Fascinating stuff
Aziz if you're looking for a better example than the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, the Long Night might be compared to the Toba Catastrophe, an eruption of a supervolcano about 80,000 ago that may have resulted in a genetic bottleneck for humanity.
The theory is controversial, but it's interesting to read. I've often been reminded of it after reading about the Long Night
That's a very good call Rodrigo. Meteor strikes and super-massive volcanic eruptions have a lot in common, and those are the only two things besides a nuclear winter which can cause a "Long Night" effect where so much smoke and ash is thrown up into the sky that the sun is blotted out.
I will take a look, that sounds very interesting and definitely on point!
Since you brought up one of the physical explanations for the long night I'm going to ask my question here... if a cataclysmic event brought on the first long night could it be possible that that was what turned the awesome empire of the dawn into the shadowlands forever? And also if something like that happens again where could that be in westeros? Asking this I'm assuming that the others (created by the children of the forest) just happened to be around when the long night began and just found a suitable environment to thrive...
I've also had this theory for a while. Similar to ASOIAF itself, a mythical history that parallels real history, it is some of the explanation for the Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden story to explain why its been proven recently that we all might have one single genetic father, dating back to the time of the supervolcano and the bottleneck of humanity, when humans we're so few in numbers that they could have been defined as an endangered species. In an interesting turn of fashion, Martin could be referring to it with adding his patented magical explanation twist.
Tommaso Nicolini maybe the shadowlands are like that because of a giant ash cloud from a volcano eruption? What if the doom kicked up the ash?
Westeros isn't remotely too homogeneous to be an empire. It is more culturally diverse than most empires that have ever existed in the real world. By any definition of the word every Targaryen ruler was an Emperor, as were several pre-conquest westeros kingdoms like that of Harren the black. Aegon the conqueror did not take the title emperor because there was no reason to do so. Westeros had kings, so he made himself a king. Valyria was a Freehold so there was literally no reason to call himself "emperor", it would have no meaning either to his Valyrian companions nor his new Westerosi subjects. The only people it would make any sense to would be the most learned individuals who would know of the Ghiscari empire (if it was even called that) or even the Empire of the Dawn. Them and the most travelled who might know of Yi Ti. Remember the title "Emperor" only existed in the real world because the Romans had an aversion to the title "king". They had an empire long before any of them called themselves" emperor".
Using the title emperor does not an empire make, nor does the lack of said title an empire unmake. The largest Empire in history, the British Empire, only became an "empire" in name when queen Victoria took the title Empress of India, despite her controlling a sizeable proportion of the world across 5 continents before she did so. Not ethat she wa snot "Empress" to any of her other subjects. Other huge empires were never called "Empire" at all, such as that of the Mongols. The seven kingdoms, by being made up of seven kingdoms is by definition an empire, and would be so even if there was not a clear Andal/first men cultural/religious division. If you forcibly unite seven political entities who have been sovereign for thousands of years you have most definitely formed an empire.
Long time fan, watcher, reader and listener. I am incredible with voice recognition and I am pretty sure you guys know me by now. Love you guys. P.S. Who knew Lucifer was so handsome. Thanks again for another video.
Yes, we do recognize your name! Thanks for being a steadfast supporter, it's very motivating for us.
Aziz, Ashaya and LmL your combined knowledge and insight is a nerds dream! It amazes me how much of your time you guys talk about the books but still make it interesting & now all these years down the line. Just shows the stunning genius of GRRM that you guys can actually work full time analysing his works! ..... i do wish he’d get TWOW out though HURRY UP GEORGE 😁😁😁
Dark Ages
Not all wisdom of the ancient cultures was lost in Europe. That is easily battled by the fact, that Charlemagne ordered the old texts of the Romans to be copied in the monasteries of the Frankish Empire.
Also, the Romans weren't dead yet. Eastern Rome (Constantinople) still existed. And the Visigoths as well as the Ostrogoths adopted parts of the roman culture. They even, by time, adopted the language (with influence of their own) of the romanic people. Therefore it is obvious, that they never wanted to destroy Rome and take it over, but flourish themselves in its midst.
In comparison, one has to take into consideration, that Turkey was once inhabited solely by Greeks and Armenians, before turkish tribes run it over.
The keys to it all are in here ... and in the age of legends. Well done!
By far my favorite Westeros History's episode (alongside with the one about Euron Greyjoy).
No matter if it's just speculation. It's awesome!
If Valyriens came to Essos from the far East, maybe the Dayne ancestors headed East of East and then sailed East across a sea of unknown (Sunset Sea from Westeros POV) to the SW point of what is now Westeros.
Nice discussion and theories guys. I also keep in mind that GRRM has confirmed that the purple eyes of the Daynes does not come from Valyria, so there has to have been a common culture somewhere in the history od Planetos.
Yesssssssss! It's finally here, I confess I did lurk on your guys twitter... so there's that.
Me too, and I don't even have a twitter. Lol. I was creeping the last few days.
ugh...taking a Tiger woman as a wife? Soooooo desperate
Can you blame him? She was an animal in bed.
@@hotduelist lmao stupid! lol
Confirmed the Bloodstone Emperor is a canon Furry
If she is able to turn my children into lawyers and doctors than I would love to marry a tiger woman. It is a plus if she can catch mice and grill them like my ex would.
I know this old but a smart poster text that the tiger woman maybe a female of the children of forest. They have claws and cat eyes. I am so shock I never thought that .
An amazing episode as always! I am inspired to create more worldbuilding elements in my own world that I am creating right now!.
Guys! This totally blew my mind! Awesome work!!!
Ok this maybe a bit of a stretch but is it possible that The Ice Dragon book takes place in Dawn Age times? I know GRRM had said that book it is not linked to the ASOIAF universe though his publishers have said otherwise. Then again it would fit in quite nicely to the idea of ancient dragon riding kingdoms in and two of these were duking it out in what is now Westeros. Perhaps Adara lived in this uber ancient period and it was in her lifetime this mighty Dawn Empire fracture or even the Long Night itself. And just like Daynes and Targaryens maybe descended from these ancient dragon riders, Adara could have been a 'proto-Other' and for all we know she could be their great ancestor or something.
Another import thing to note I feel is that if the map of asoiaf exists on a globe and the size of Essos is relatively limited past what we already know there could potentially have been an eastward sea rout to Essos from Westeros that was quicker than the standard westward route, making the high tower theory even more plausible.
yay a new episode!
Wow I’ve watched this video at least 5 times since it was originally posted and I still haven’t gotten tired of it yet.
Been listening to your podcast a long time! Congrats on the success of CZcams and all the other platforms your on
You made my day...thx.
The Long Night seems rather similar to the Bronze Age Collapse around 1177 BCE, when the great nations of the day like Egypt, Assyria, and the Mycenaeans all fell apart and contracted into illiterate and isolationist societies for about 600 years, basically until the Classical Period of revived contact and literacy. Stories of the Long Night and days before are oral stories like the tales of Homer or other great oral epics like Kalevala or the pre-literate Sanskrit stories that later formed the canon of Hindu texts, but with even more distortions due to the greater level of destruction
The Sea People destroy the bronze kingdoms.
The collapse happened far from the sea as well. Sea People and raiders from abroad were symptoms of weakened or broken states, not the cause of that breaking
@@sophiawilson8696 the question is: “who were the sea peoples?”
There’s significant research to say that the Sea Peoples were in fact the remnants of civilizations local to the region which, when faced with ecological and environmental pressure, began to raid the territories.
But the sea peoples weren’t enough to single-handedly cause the Bronze Age Collapse; that was a domino effect that left only Egypt alive
@@cloverazar5315 very true! Some says they are southern part of Europe.
Mind opening. Thank you for doing what you do.
Sensational video guys!
Its very hard to date the wall. even when its wet.
Also it is hardest to date the wall when it is weeping (oh, pliz, make me stop).
Yeah it was trouble once it got started, lol. :)
Lincoln Noronha n
@@lincolnnoronha4128 But Wildlings typically find mounting the wall easiest when it is weeping...
(There's always a way to make this worse...)
@@JamesJNothingIsTooSensitive oh, god
This video blew my mind, almost as hard as PJ's Minds of Wolves and Robins. But that does not make this video any less brilliant. Really just excellent work, clearly well and thoroughly researched. Of course that's the same as every other video, but this was on a topic I knew excitingly little about! I'm home now so time to finish it. Then probably rewatch it to really get into it, there's a lot of information in it!
P.S. Would love to see everyone on Trial by Trivia!
The five forts might have been like emergency bunkers for the people to shelter in in trying times.
Great video! Thank you
David, you are hilarious! I love LML although my brain is usually hurting by the end of his extraordinarily insightful podcasts. Love HoW !!! Keep on keeping on guys!
Wow really great discussion and analysis! Had fun listening and very enlightening! Great job guys and gal! 👍🏼😅
Fantastic video, thank you so much.
10.000 years are in china a divine number, as in the 10.000 things of the taoists, in the forbidden city in the palace there are 9.999 rooms as i recall.
GRRM would be so proud of you guys. This channel is quite something else I love your videos.
i have watched this episode 20 times the three of you r magic.... no wait your topless magic together! love all your collaborations
do you think that the north above the wall is connected by land to the east. our maps are wrong because no one has taken the "Columbus" voyage yet? I mention this because of the 5 forts on one side the wall holds back the white walkers. on the other side it's the 5 forts?
maybe the old town fused black rock proves they circumnavigate the globe. it makes more sense they sailed from Ashai went east directly to old town.
I heard - ancient squirrels at first - when you guys said scrolls. It made me happy
You guys are very impressive. The knowledge of the books and the presentation is on point. You convinced me that the ancient people of the dawn came to Westeroes to fight the others. Too many facts for it not to be right. Well done
This is awesome thank you 👏🏽
In the Jade Sea, to the south of the Isle of Leng on the map, there appears to be a crescent shaped island group reminiscent of the collapsed caldera created by the Minoan eruption of Thera or Santorini, only much larger in scale. Is there any reference to such an event in the books?
No, there isn't, but I've noticed that too. It is said to belch smoke from two spots on either side of the crescent - it's like a smoking set of devil horns. But yeah, it looks like a caldera island but it's so big... but there is no specific or even symbolic reference to a volcanic event in the east.
Lucifer means Lightbringer Thanks for such a thought-provoking video. I was also musing on the connection mentioned between the name Eldric Shadowchaser and the soul-infused Lightbringer to Michael Moorcock's Elric and his soul-devouring Stormbringer. Could it be another small literary allusion that the Empire of the Dawn were connected to dragons, as the Meniboneans are suggested to be in Moorcock's stories? I'm suddenly a bit uneasy that Daenerys, haunted by dreams of ancient Dawn kings, is sometimes known as 'Stormborn' - 'Last Hero' or bloodthirsty 'Eternal Champion'? :-)
Yes, I think you speculation here is eminently reasonable. If you have read / listened to any of my essays or podcasts, you know that I identify the original Azor Ahai as the one who brought on the storm of the Long Night. George seems to have made something or an archetype out of it, which different people play into in different ways. That's how Jon and Dany can both show signs of being Azor Ahai 'reborn,' because it's like a karmic role more than a specific reincarnation of a person. To create this archetype, George has drawn from Mithras and lucifer and Elric and a few other characters who are similar, like Prometheus, jesus, and Osiris. He's done a wonderful job finding similar characters in world myth and literature and creating his own version of that combined archetype, and that's what is going on with Azor Ahai.
If you recall the myth of the forging of Lightbringer, the moon cracks when Nissa Nissa is stabbed with Lightbringer. In another tale, we hear of a second moon which wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat, giving birth to a million fiery dragons. That's actually a description of a meteor shower of epic proportions, coming from some celestial cataclysm involving a moon or moon-like object (asteroid perhaps?), and it seems to be connected to the forging of LB and therefore the LN. Meter impacts can cause the sun to be blotted out for a few years by smoke and debris, which is exactly what I think happened, and the Bloodstone Emperor story also has a meteor involved, and also took place at the time of the LN. That's the basic of my theory, and there's also a huge "storm king / storm god" thing wrapped up in all of this as well, so Stormbringer is exactly right. You should definitely check out my podcasts if you haven't already, as you'll see that there is a lot more to this idea of the storm which George is developing. I also am quite convinced that Lightbringer was - at least at first - a sword which brought evil, not light and love, and I think this idea is screamed at us all throughout the series in a thousand different ways.
And yeah, as you can see, I definitely think that the GEotD were dragonlords, because nothing makes sense otherwise, and the fused stone is pretty conclusive. So you can see how the Melnibone parallels work pretty smoothly. That's how George does things - if he is writing about a flaming sword myth, he researches all the flaming sword myths he can find and pulls from them as needed to make his own version. In this way, he's really just writing as a continuation of classic mythology and literature, something I have written about specifically. When he writes about dragonlords, he's pulling from many dragon ideas from all around the world... again, where it makes sense for his purposes. He is never doing a one for one adaptation of anything, so he is not beholden to the details of any given myth he is drawing from. I do think the soul-drinking aspects of Lightbringer are important, and I do think those draw on Elric's black sword, absolutely, and it also reminds me of Steven Ericsson's Dragnipur, if you have ever read his work. Another black sword wielded by a pale, vampire-like character which traps people's souls within the sword. It's kind of a fantasy trope, really, and he's doing his own version. I think that the original LB was a black sword, a proto-type for Valyrian steel, and likely made from iron ore from the Bloodstone Emperor's black meteor. I actually think that Azor Ahai WAS the Bloodstone Emperor... again, all that stuff can be found at www.lucifermeanslightbringer.com
Lucifer means Lightbringer I have not heard your podcasts, but I definitely will. I've been astounded since starting to read these books at just how many layers GRR Martin has constructed to discover. At first, I was impressed with a story that seemed to focus upon the realism of its depiction of medieval politics and society. I started then to become invested in the characters, and discovered that within their unreliable narratives were clues that might reveal things they either want to hide or are unaware of that the reader gets to decipher. Then, I started to become intrigued with the potential plots and perhaps 'master plans' at work. And here, you explore the way GRR Martin, putting perhaps the ideas of Joseph Campbell to good use, has woven legends and literary tropes into his own mythology that somehow underpins everything else the books are telling, and explored the intertwining of unreliable historical perspective and myth. What a remarkable talent. He engenders such discussion about his world, I wonder if there is an end to what might be discovered or speculated?
Yes, that's a really excellent summary of George's work, layered in excellence as it is. What's interesting is that HBO basically pulls from and condenses from the surface action - the politics and character narratives, without touching on many of the deeper things that the book does. GRRM's use of the unreliable narrator, by the way, may be the single most important aspect of his writing in terms of what other young writers will hopefully take away from his work and success. I am so sick of books which spooned you everything, and once you've gotten sued to having to work to find the truth, to be engaged in the story, you really can't read authors that go "but little did she know that would be the last time she ever blah blah blah" because it's just kinda juveniille. Anyway..
You are very right to mention Campbell, in fact I devoted an entire episode ("GRRM is writing modern mythology") to an analysis of GRRM's use of myth through the lens of Campbell's understanding of myth, which essentially served as an explanation of my methodology for my own analysis. I'm sure that will be right up your alley. For me it all started by figuring out that fire dragons coming from a cracked moon must be a mythical re-telling of a meteor event, because I have read a lot about ancient man's incorporation of basic astronomy into their mythology and culture. Once I realized martin was working that angle, and that I could analyze his ASOIAF folklore in those terms, I feel that I as able to pretty quickly decode almost all of the ASOAIF myth, at least in part. His folklore, like real folklore, is itself layered in meaning and I don't mean to say I have all those layers sussed out... but once you realize that there was an ancient "fire in the sky" event tied to the Long Night, things like the island-drowning sea dragon and the Storm Gods thunderbolt which brought the fire of thegods to man, or the Hammer of the Waters which was called down with sorcery and blood magic and which broke the land begin to make a lot more sense. The themes o the Azor Ahai fable are the ones I have best handle on, and those themes seem to be replayed in several other mythologies, such as that of the Iron Islands. Lightbringer basically represents the fire of the gods in the form of a meteor, and the Grey King possessed the fire of the sea dragon and the Storm God's thunderbolt, both of which I believe represent the meteor dragons that came form this moon cracking. Anyway, I'll let you read the full version (or listen tot he podcast, the essays and pods are identical).
still my favorite episodes, starting with House Dayne...
When you find a new channel that you like, and go on a daylong marathon and give up on the real world entirely.
welcome aboard, it's a smooth ride but you'll have to provide your own beverages.
did a wee little bit of research. how about:
the onyx emperor = proto stark
the amethyst emperess = proto targ
the jade emperor = proto lannister
if the emperors weren't emperors but ruling families, they might as well have relatives in westeros, maybe first colonies founded by explorers that traveled and found fertile land...would explain why anyone in essos even cared about the white walkers coming to westeros, i think...argh, can't wait for that q&a!!!
thx again for the great videos! you're my new television ;-)
just started watching a few days ago and I'm really loving it. Although this is only the second video I've seen, I'm completely hooked and will be making my way though all of them. I haven't read any of the TWOW excerpts as I'm waiting for the book to be published in it's entirety, but this is seriously satisfying my Ice and Fire cravings.
Around 2:35:00 you mentioned that there were no Others in the east, but perhaps they simply didn't refer to them as such. The Lion of Night and his demons sound awfully similar to the Others and the wights. We know the Long Night occurred in Essos and Westeros although we don't know for sure it they began and/or ended simultaneously. I also see parallels between the construction of the Five Forts to keep the Lion of Night and his demons out of the Great Empire of the Dawn and the The Wall which keeps the Others and the wights out of Westeros. However a big difference here is that Five Forts are said to have been constructed by the Pearl Emperor and he reigned before the Long Night while The Wall was constructed by Bran the Builder after the Long Night ended. I account for this difference by acknowledging that the Lion of the Night is known in the mythology and history of the Great Empire of the Dawn and their God-Emperor so perhaps they simply had the knowledge of the Lion of Night and thus knew to defend themselves against him/it. The Westerosi on the other hand didn't know about these dark evil forces (assuming they're one in the same)until the Long Night and then built the wall after they lived through it.
The gears are turning while I write this so I apologize for the long winded nature, but I guess I'm curious about the timetable of the Long Night and if the Lion of Night and the Others are one in the same. If they're not the same they certainly have to be related (perhaps two aligned dark empires on the other side of the world trying to execute one of the largest flanks in military history). Also if the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same person then did the Long Night last much longer in Westeros than Essos as Azor Ahai had to make the journey to the other side of the world.
Anyways just wanted to get that off my chest. I absolutely love your videos and look forward to watching more.
As always very interesting. Explains a lot.
Guys! You can do it work like that with history of our world. Great job :)
Just got to say again. Your intro is so badass. Kudos
Hi you two.... your videos never disappoint. Rock on,!
Fabulous episode! So much great information! 👍
Hey Lily, glad you liked it! It was a lot of hard work but it was fun of course.. I am very glad to finally have all this information available in an easily-digestible format, and HoW really made everything better. My original essay doesn't hold a candle (heh) to what we came out after a good old fashioned team effort here.
The big question for me is House Stark... There's a decent chance House Stark descends from the Last Hero, right? Or maybe NK, or maybe both? That means they could have that GEotD bloodline too. It all comes together at the Last Hero, but we don't have enough info yet to Sussex out exactly what happened.
I was going to work on compiling all the Lovecraft references I could find...but it would appear the job has been done. Really glad they got touched on so heavily here. In that vein- the Squishers deserve mention, their description fits that of worshippers of that Frog Idol, both of which resemble the creatures from The Shadow Over Innsmouth. If this was touched on maybe I missed it, I'm listening at work and slightly distracted.
Right on, we actually had several more references in the script but decided there were just too many and it might be off putting to bring it up so many times. We're going to bring up more of them in the Q&A, though! We didn't mention Sarnath as an HPL reference, for example. We didn't specifically mention The Shadow Over Innsmouth, but that's a great example. Similar idols are in his other stories, as you probably know... The Temple comes to mind.
What do you know about Lovecraft's Old Ones and the monster known as Yig? Because I think Martin is using those ideas in a very sneaky way...
As a Lovecraft fan, I just find the image of the Ironborn having been worshiping Cthulhu this entire time hilariously satisfying. Some mighty good crack.
I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've read a fair amount of his short stories and am familiar with his world of lore. I'll have to refresh myself on that particular being, I can't pick up where you're going with it at the moment.
WOW great episode guys.
Hey maybe you should divide the video into chapters and put timestamp links in the description? That way it'd be more organized and easier to watch/digest. Just a suggestion of course, love your videos!
I tend to agree. We release things as podcast and video, and long podcasts work better than long videos. This one was too long for video form, even I would agree with that :)
I've been pondering how to handle this going forward, and I think by the time TWOW comes out, we will have made some adjustments in how we release things. We won't cut back on total content, but releasing it in smaller chunks is preferable for CZcams.
Thanks for the feedback, it's very helpful. :)