This video makes me feel even better about my purchase of an EV9. We love the car. It's our family car and we hope to get 10 years of use out of it. Seeing how well designed the battery pack is in conjunction with the factory warranty, gives me confidence.
I saw your another presentation for eGMP module design. The giga pascal end plate protects the cell from the crash situation. GF30 and GF10 plastic and the pad between the cell retards the heat transfer in fire situation. The BUS bar connecting the module has incorporated fuse function to isolated the internal short circuit event in one module or two modules. The insulation sheet is incorporated to protect the cavin from a fire case.
Observation from someone in the Utility business for 35 years. We remove jewelry (watch necklace, rings) and wear 100% cotton long sleeves while working with electricity. A flash can melt your non-cotton shirt to your skin causing much pain and long recovery. Cotton will not do that.
Před 20 dny+5
Arc flashes are no joke, for sure. Although I dont think the risk is high for that here.
@@chengcao418 You're right pertaining to the whole pack, but wrong when talking about the cells. The BMS is in the chassis at the end of the Buss Bar network. These cells are discharged, which is mentioned in the narration.
Easy to replace does not mean it will be easy to do a replacement. you need to remove it all without damaging anything else, do it without damaging other cables, without damaging the sealent. Once that done, you need to replace the module with the same load and unload voltage, else the pack can get unbalanced and damage other modules or worse, catch fire. After doing that all, you need to give a warenty for your work, which can cause a 500$ part and job create a 15k+ cost in damages if it goes bad. You prob looking at 10k+ in cost to replace a 200$ part with risk of future failures.
The modular design is for manufacturing and handling ease. There is no intention of replacing individual modules. Great for scavengers pet projects though.
@@yk4194 Hyundai and Kia are currently providing a replacement service for the problematic modules. Although this is rare, they provide a complete service by replacing modules at any time and even performing a waterproof check. Of course, this is only available in Korea, and you will need to find out if this service is available in other countries.
I love how clean and modular the design is and it's easily recyclable unlike some packs where everything is filled solid with foam that has to be chiseled out.
Recycling is done chemically. So removing the foam is done with 1 easy process. By hand it a nightmare by with the right chemicals it prob a 2 min job.
@@pipooh1 Let me remind you the order is Reduce > Reuse > Recycle, if you're filling it with foam you're skipping the reuse possibilities that these cells could have at the end of life. We've already seen many Leaf packs getting reused for solar farms, that's what we should be pursuing more and more.
@@TheFPSPower the truth is the best battery pack is one that doesn't go bad, and need to be replaced. These battery packs are going to last, on average, WAAAAY longer than ICE, so repairability might not be needed at all.
@@bobhope3940 What does that have to do with what I said? I did not mention repair at all, I mean at the end of life when the battery or the car is no longer useful you can use it for other purposes like energy storage that don't require much peak power so even worn out cells are still useful.
Yeah, seems to me like a dream to repair it, looks like it would be feasible to swap individual cells or modules that got too unbalanced wear. The car itself is a super expensive suv(78k€) so endurance probably isn't needed, however for a properly sized car wanting to have all important components working for its 20-40y daily usage life makes the choice of a serviceable pack extremely important.
@@TAD-9Even if the older Tesla packs are easier to take apart there is no proven method for fixing them apart from cutting out one cell from every module if you get one bad one. Module swaps are only temporary because the balancing cannot handle the drifting compared to the other modules at some point. Some new endeavours have started to replace individual cells with matched worn cells. That has a better chance of being a lasting method but it is still unproven.
@@miragept The lowest available versions in the US are ~ 51k€ (each state has different sales taxes/registration fees which can add up to 10%). Average age of the US auto fleet is around 12 years, so beyond swapping modules in the event of a defect, these batteries modules will easily be able to find a second life in Energy Storage etc. This is a huge difference versus the newer Tesla pack which are not serviceable due to the rigid "foam" that surround the cylindrical cells.
Kudos to HKG for sticking with a serviceable battery, even taking into consideration some parts that may need to be replaced and allowing them to be replaced without removing the battery. All those things play a huge role in the likelyhood of being able to keep these on the road for years or even decades, since being able to replace individual components is far more cost effective for a vehicle owner than having to replace entire massive, expensive assemblies. It's also a lot better when it comes to recycling at EOL. Although I know Sandy tends to disagree because he's only concerned about reducing the cost to the manufacturer, *serviceability matters* ! Especially for something that has a huge environmental impact to manufacture, like a car. We need to focus on keeping vehicles on the road longer, not just churning out new ones faster and more easily, especially since that reduction in cost is rarely ever passed to the consumer. That said, I wish they would come up with a better solution for heating/cooling the battery. Building the heat exchanger into the bottom of the battery case is great for manufacturing, but the thin composite cover they put over it is not very effective, especially in cold temperatures. I saw this issue in my Ioniq5 and now the EV9 that replaced it. The battery gets very cold, very quickly in cold weather, leading to either slow charging or a lot of energy spent on battery heating/preconditioning during road trips. It also reduces the heat energy available for the heat pump system to scavenge from the battery, reducing efficiency.
There is no free lunch. The serviceability come at a cost in reliability, weight, and price. If your parts are reliable or age in a similar manner, it become waste. I would say make all the battery pack one glued thing, but make it very light, reliable, cost effective. Grind the whole battery pack to ore if something fail.
Manufacturing, as I said, becomes expensive. If there are a lot of people willing to pay that higher price, of course, the manufacturer will reinforce that, but the reality is that it's not.
Tom's explanations have gotten really good over time. Vulgarisation is just right, not too much details and enough technical for the audience. He is almost at Carl's level!!!
The thickness of that thermal paste almost looks like they are using it for shock absorption also.. It lets each module float on a bit of cushion. Rather than filling it with foam/glue like Tesla does.
Thermal interface material if designed or chosen appropriately can be thick and effective. Look at GPU memory modules thermal pads… they can be quite thick, yet effective. I bet the thickness was chosen based on “reasons”. Thickness doesn’t mean much in this application. It’s not a CPU or a direct die GPU.
The reason for the thickness of the thermal interface material could be to allow it to maintain contact with the cells as the cells move around and change shape during charge cycles and during their overall lifetime. A thin layer would be unable to do that.
Regarding the thermal paste thickness, I wonder if the paste itself is acting as a form of vibration suppression. The fact that it is so thick makes me suspect that it has a secondary duty of some kind.
They do not want to remove heat or add heat TOO FAST. It is one plate. It means there is a gradient. And also... the cell is thermally adjusted from one side. So temp Delta should me not that great. So thick paste is actually a good design choice - limiting heat transfer to managable level. It is a Kia, not Lamborghini.
@@Cjdergrosse No battery damage will occur.This battery pack is also used in the Ionic 5n. It is a proven system that does not cause battery overheating even after several rounds of the track.
I think during warranty, manufacturers will try to fix by replacing modules. Post-warranty, I think to reduce liability risks, manufacturers will likely only sell us complete packs.
It's a mistake to think the hardest use the cells get is while driving. That's wrong! The hardest use is fast charging. Fast charging uses 5 to 10x more current compared to driving, and the cells have worse efficiency when charging compared to discharging. Normal driving, or even racing, is like nothing to these batteries. All the cable thickness and cooling system is basically solely designed for charging.
Superbly elegant. It's time Japan sends its engineers over there to see how it's done. Japan's unpreparedness for a future EV dominated market is scandalous to the point of virtual industrial suicide. Particularly for a country that is utterly dependent on fossil fuel imports.😮
Im wondering about the long term effects of the cell thermal gradient created by the cooling plate. The closer to the plate, the wider the thermal swings.
All the fasteners and serviceability features lead me to believe they EXPECT a significant number of batteries will need service or repair. A glued together pack is actually more confidence inspiring.
13:27 Thermal surfaces should be flat to minimize gap. The amount of thermal paste should be as thin as possible for maximum heat transfer and minimum production cost.
something that is missed is...these are pouch cells. you can't have the bottom of the cell touching the metal. the distance is necessary to protect the vulnerable section of the cell.
The thermal resistance of that thick paste must have been a point of contention for 1D/3D thermal CFD engineers during the optimization phase 😂 Wonder if this was impacted by the factory paste dispenser flow rate during assembly.
i take its compromise. Remember cells are shrinking and expanding during cycling too. That adds another dimensionality and needs to be taken into account too. Hence bigger margin.
The CFD engineer would have considered the vibrational movement of the module under harsh driving condition. The effectiveness of the cooling of the pack was well demnostrated by the Pikes Peak hill climbing racing by IONIQ5N who took the first place and broke the record of Model S plaid. The driver who drove 5N this year and had droven Model S last year commented that there was no power limitation by the battery temperature for 5N driving case but the power of Plaid was constrained caused by the battery temperature at early stage of the race. It seems the quantity of the thermal interface material is somewhat too much, but it provide the secure interface between the cooling plate and the cell while proctecting the surface of pouch from the shock and vibration. The concerned cooling efficiency was well demonstrated by 5N performance which is far exceeding the power demand from EV9 model. One of the feature I like for this design is one of the module is replacible if it can be serviced by quailified and experienced staff like Munro team.
It almost looks like they use Termal Interface Material for NVH suppression between the battery and the bottom. TIM is expensive. I'd thought thinner (painted on) TIM with battery NVH HD foam around the edges would be a better solution.
Yes, it's a little disappointing that assumptions were made without evidence. In fact the entire module could be bench tested for thermal resistance and heat capacity.
@@markplott4820 It's not that you don't need it, it's that you can't do it. The batteries of Tesla vehicles also break down. Then you have to grind the whole battery.
Looks like a well designed battery pack, easy to service / repair unlike Tesla with all that spray foam everywhere, glued top plates was designed to never be fixed.
It would be interesting to see if the plastic cover of the modules is thermoplastic. There are phenolic alternatives with the same look but way better performance during thermal runaway.
@@AntonioDiNunnoEVS Interesting. Then 4 diavents and the thermal protection layer are enough to fullfill the 5min rule. But I would guess the long busbars in the middle of the pack have improved isolation to minimize arcing under thermal runaway?
On design it looks amazing, practically service and expertise are mandatory. My Kia ev9 got coolant leak 4 days after the acquisition while I was on vacation. The local Kia center, didn't see anything apart from coolant being totally missing. They just refilled it. A month later I had the warning Battery issue, it took 6 weeks for the Kia to be diagnosed and repaired. They did replace part of the battery, they had to make their country specialist come to take care of it. And the same leak happened less than 2 days after they gave it back to me. The car is now stuck again. Expertise is key when you create such complex architecture ...
Additionally interesting as I purchased an EV9 several weeks ago. UBER pleased with it on every level so far. A common complaint I see is the front dash monitor contents obstructed by the steering wheel. This is a frustration to be sure. And I am still waiting for the OEMs to get rid of the front seat center console altogether. I want that gone so I can move around in the vehicle freely. It blows my mind that they haven’t figured this out yet. Put the damn cupholders somewhere else for crying out loud.🤯
Laughable idea! The "general public" is ill equipped to do any "repairs" on these cars, other than look and marvel. Tesla does have service manuals for their cars, on line, but not how to "repair" a battery, or motor or control module. 😂
@@markplott4820 If priced properly, I think only people who are serious would buy disassembly manuals. The world is better when we can take care of our things. A smart society is a good society.
Awesome video as always. Interesting to see and listen to the insight about the thermal pads for transferring heat in and out from the battery pack. Looking for to the battery module video!
A very succinct presentation. I love that the bottom of the cells are exposed on the underside of the module. Surely, not hard to re-engineer for half/quarter that amount of paste.
EV sales are down across the industry while hybrids are up; they are expecting a downturn in high end consumer spending in the economy; and they are hoping to bring down EV costs as new suppliers come online
Ford gets -95% margin on their EV's. This means that every truck ford sells they eat 100k in cost. They would literally have a better business model buying model Y's, selling it to the people whom order Ford EVs FOR FREE. They cant make cars. Imagine how good a tesla would be if they spent an extra 100k+ per vehicle.
@@teachingthecode4651 ev sales globally through q2 we're in FACT up over 28% vs 2023 total q1&2 sales. And yes phevs&other hybrids are up over 32% vs 2023 sales. But evs are not down globally vs 2023 and that is a FACT!
@@teachingthecode4651 They lose -95% margin on every EV they sell. Ford cant make a car. without eating 2x in cost at least. If tesla spent 100k+ on every car they would have eject seats, rockets, and even active spoilers for track.
Those numbers from ford include building new factories to make their own batteries el motors and so on to be profitable on ev sales so it is investment to the future so calculating price this way at this point is political bulshit to satisfy unions, shareholdes and others . It maybe dancing on the thin ice for Ford's future.
nice pack vs the none serviceable packs of Tesla. My only issue with Kia/Hyundai is their stubborn use of pouch cells. Thermal interface material also too thick and it will dry in less than years. They better make it thin so that it doesnt become of an insulator when it dries.
This looks so well put together, teslas batteries are a mess. And KIA still gets very high efficiencies just as good as tesla. I have a feeling these cars will run for longer than teslas
Surprised to notice Hyundai never bothered to clean up aluminum mig welds in the battery pack casing. At the first glance I thought some component in there has let the smoke out in quite an eplosive manner! A classic implementation of cost reduction my avoiding uncecessary finish.
Good point that's a quite nice and easy battery to service and a nice use of a cold plate. Bad points it looks to be a heavy battery pack with all of that wiring, metal and cases within cases.
i think the safey of the pack should be the number one concern. as a DIYer, I love the idea of the easy access to the whole battery for repair. however the idea of someone messing with the battery leaving it prone to fire scares me. I recently bought a used EV and the idea that the battery has been tampered with is worrisome. sealed packs probably is the way to go for peace of mind and insurance coverage. i think we need to start looking at the big picture how all these little choices of design with affect not just the now, but future functions.
there's no future in unserviceable vehicles and I on the other hand would not but second hand a vehicle with a pack that is difficult or impossible to service
@ALCLCFVIS ya exactly. This is exciting to see! It makes me imagine a future were I could easily upgrade my ioniq6 battery with new battery tech that comes out. Keep the aluminum structure, easily replace battery management and packs. Perfect.
@@dakotapahel-short3192 New tech = new cabling / structure / modules / processes etc. You better of replacing the while pack then just a few components. If the new tech means higher voltage, there is no way to retrofit it in, since that means completely different wires throughout the car and not just the battery etc.
If you seal it, even if some of the cells are defective, you have to do the whole replacement. Who pays for it? From a long-term perspective, we need a structure like that because it needs to be repaired. I think you can provide something like a sealing seal with the manufacturer's formula.
We should normalize those coolant fittings to be a machined surface with mounting bolts.. So that if the fitting itself gets damaged, they can easily be changed without removing the battery. Mounting the fitting directly to the pack like that needs to go away. It should be more serviceable than what they are doing. If some random chicken runs out into the road and breaks your water line, you now have to pull the entire battery and split it apart to even begin a repair (which looks like it can't even be done)... This is unacceptable... I will say: at least they didn't make the fittings plastic, like Tesla does.
What about road debris and eventual perforation of the cooling sheet? I've seen this happening to the Porsche Taycan on speed bumps, pretty much the same design.
wow, this battery pack is easy to replace, simplified, clean, very well organized. Preferred over the messy Tesla EV packs. Kia and Hyundai has better engineering and design than Tesla. It seems like Tesla is so in a hurry to push models out the door without thinking about simply repairing these EVs. Tesla with the stamped out chassis and body will be overly expensive to repair or replace where owners can’t afford to pay for the repairs. This will hurt Tesla sales.
This design is actually the old design and Tesla had this in their first EV's, a lot of companies are using it now. This is because they are still behind in pack design and only take a safe route. This means, added cost for manufacturing, since this is a pouch design, it need prob 3x the production cost and time of a Tesla pack. Not to talk about all the manual labour for the cabling. Add to that all the extra cost for the materials (glue / cables / bolts / seperated packs). You prob looking at a way higher cost of manufacturing compare to Tesla's design. There is a reason Tesla is nearly the only EV maker actually making profits of their vehicles. The other sell mostly at a loss or if lucky break even. So far there has not been any Replacement done on battery packs, it too risky to do and to much of a cost. You prob looking at a 10k+ work cost for a 400$ replacement. It not worth the risk of unbalancing the pack and killing it, or even make the pack catch fire if it overloads. Other companies are mostly copying what Tesla is doing with a delay of 3-5 yearrs. A lot of companies are now switching to 1 full casted body at the front and back, many years after Tesla is already doing it in full mass production. This reduce cost and time. Do not come that this is hard to repair... If any of those part is damaged, your car is a full write off no matter if it was a full casting on 400+ different parts.
Question? Is that battery tray or. housing all 1 piece? The outside not the pieces inside. Perhaps that thermal interface, is used as a insulator? What's that busbar made out of.
If you mean removing modules then yes, that is what a lot of manufacturers are doing. If you mean cells, then no, cause each cell only has about 3,5-4V so in any case they need to be combined to get higher total voltage. A bigger cell doesn´t not equal high voltage.
Cost is the biggest factor, if there's a bad cell/pouch or two during construction of the battery, it's a lot more difficult to repair a monolithic battery vs just swapping out a cell group.
It's not silly question. First you need the voltage so that means a minimum number of series groups. But parallel cells can be minimised and Hyundai/Kia did exactly this between the gen-1 Kona/Niro with 98S-3P and Gen-2 with 96S-1P.
I am 65 and have owned maybe 2 or three cars still under warranty, and I keep them forever. I am currently reconditioning and rebuilding the hybrid battery in my Lexus. This is my major dislike for Tesla's disposable structural battery pack. Unlike this battery or my Lexus, zero option to repair. Not even a BMS.
@@4literv6 All battery packs are high quality ore. Including the one in this video, that can be repaired and rebuilt. I am rebuilding my Lexus battery for $500. Tesla structural battery is $15k every time. The number one benefactor of the structural battery pack is Tesla. Not the car owner.
@@stix2you I retired from a Honda dealership last year after 30+ years of working on cars. This Hyundai has 1 BMS.(one point of failure) You don't even have to pull the battery to replace it. Structural battery has 4 that may possibly break, anyone of which will doom battery.
Through switching control, DC-BUS has an 800V system. It is true that the efficiency of DC-DC is high when the maximum voltage of the battery is close to 800V, but the claim that it is not an 800V system because the maximum series voltage of the battery is not 800V is wrong.
If they vented down the vent could get damaged by road debris. But there is still a solid floor pan between the passengers and the top of the battery, and the vents are at the far fore and aft ends. It doesn't vent into the cabin.
@@stephenj4937 It does vent in the vicinity of the cabin which is not good for occupant safety. Road debris won't damage the vents if they're properly located and recessed.
11:34 Funny😂😂 As BMW tec, i leard to not put anything on top of the cell modules And then the wobbling tool What probabbly should go wrong, w Right ?? 😂😂😂😂
It is a special glass fiber plastic that has a higher melting temperature than aluminum. It is not a plastic that melts like your keyboard. Polymer compound engineering plastics._These special plastics will not be pierced by heating at 1,100 degrees for five minutes, but aluminum will. Aluminum is said to melt at 660 degrees.For reference, CZcams_'Munro Live' ch(Automotive_Engineering Group)
czcams.com/video/DaaPMk7BR88/video.htmlsi=_kTtTVEaAhq-GlFB&t=410 Each manufacturer has different recipes. What I want to say is that the parts you call _trash_plastic_ are not the same plastic as your_keyboard.
The bottom part of the battery is designed for cooling. When the battery is on fire, the heat and flame face upward. Please note that designers are not_amateurs like us.
As a Large Family of 10 I am disappointed that there aren't any affordable SUV or Full sized Van Ev's available with seating for 10 or more passengers. A chevy Express Ev or a Transit EV with long range 400 to 500 miles and passenger seating would be excellent, but even the ICE versions are north of 60k new which is way too expensive.
This video makes me feel even better about my purchase of an EV9. We love the car. It's our family car and we hope to get 10 years of use out of it. Seeing how well designed the battery pack is in conjunction with the factory warranty, gives me confidence.
you should get it, you will love it like I love my Land AWD lol.
I saw your another presentation for eGMP module design. The giga pascal end plate protects the cell from the crash situation. GF30 and GF10 plastic and the pad between the cell retards the heat transfer in fire situation.
The BUS bar connecting the module has incorporated fuse function to isolated the internal short circuit event in one module or two modules.
The insulation sheet is incorporated to protect the cavin from a fire case.
Observation from someone in the Utility business for 35 years. We remove jewelry (watch necklace, rings) and wear 100% cotton long sleeves while working with electricity. A flash can melt your non-cotton shirt to your skin causing much pain and long recovery. Cotton will not do that.
Arc flashes are no joke, for sure. Although I dont think the risk is high for that here.
If we're talking 600VDC that's enough for a flash. Maybe they discharged the pack fully before disassembly.
@@jamesbruce1183 you can't really discharge these. BMS will stop you from doing that, and this battery probably still has 400V at cut-off
@@chengcao418 You're right pertaining to the whole pack, but wrong when talking about the cells. The BMS is in the chassis at the end of the Buss Bar network. These cells are discharged, which is mentioned in the narration.
@@shazam6274 you can't fully discharge the cells before taking it apart, and when they are taken apart it's 3V so who cares lol
To exaggerate a little bit, I wonder if there are manufacturers that implement this level and sell it.
LG Energy Solution, SAMSUNG SDI
What I see is easy to replace damaged modules instead of replacing the entire cars battery. Bravo KIA
Easy to replace does not mean it will be easy to do a replacement. you need to remove it all without damaging anything else, do it without damaging other cables, without damaging the sealent. Once that done, you need to replace the module with the same load and unload voltage, else the pack can get unbalanced and damage other modules or worse, catch fire. After doing that all, you need to give a warenty for your work, which can cause a 500$ part and job create a 15k+ cost in damages if it goes bad. You prob looking at 10k+ in cost to replace a 200$ part with risk of future failures.
Kia does not replace modules, but replaces them with packs. There was controversy in Canada because the repair fee was three times that of Tesla.
The modular design is for manufacturing and handling ease. There is no intention of replacing individual modules. Great for scavengers pet projects though.
@@yk4194 Hyundai and Kia are currently providing a replacement service for the problematic modules. Although this is rare, they provide a complete service by replacing modules at any time and even performing a waterproof check. Of course, this is only available in Korea, and you will need to find out if this service is available in other countries.
@@shazam6274is it true that the logical downcycling step is to use "scavenged" modules for microgrids?
This battery looks so clean from the inside. Like an Apple device when being teardowned.
I love how clean and modular the design is and it's easily recyclable unlike some packs where everything is filled solid with foam that has to be chiseled out.
Recycling is done chemically. So removing the foam is done with 1 easy process. By hand it a nightmare by with the right chemicals it prob a 2 min job.
@@pipooh1 Let me remind you the order is Reduce > Reuse > Recycle, if you're filling it with foam you're skipping the reuse possibilities that these cells could have at the end of life. We've already seen many Leaf packs getting reused for solar farms, that's what we should be pursuing more and more.
@@TheFPSPower the truth is the best battery pack is one that doesn't go bad, and need to be replaced. These battery packs are going to last, on average, WAAAAY longer than ICE, so repairability might not be needed at all.
@@bobhope3940 What does that have to do with what I said? I did not mention repair at all, I mean at the end of life when the battery or the car is no longer useful you can use it for other purposes like energy storage that don't require much peak power so even worn out cells are still useful.
@@TheFPSPower wait but why would a Tesla battery pack, for example, not be reusable? It's not like the foam makes it useless?
Just from repairability perspective, why do I like this better than Tesla pack
Yeah, seems to me like a dream to repair it, looks like it would be feasible to swap individual cells or modules that got too unbalanced wear.
The car itself is a super expensive suv(78k€) so endurance probably isn't needed, however for a properly sized car wanting to have all important components working for its 20-40y daily usage life makes the choice of a serviceable pack extremely important.
The older Tesla packs are pretty easy to work with and repair compared to legacy auto. Atleast that's what EV clinic says.
Question is: will we ever need to repair the pack? If it lasts 300k miles...no repair needed.
@@TAD-9Even if the older Tesla packs are easier to take apart there is no proven method for fixing them apart from cutting out one cell from every module if you get one bad one.
Module swaps are only temporary because the balancing cannot handle the drifting compared to the other modules at some point.
Some new endeavours have started to replace individual cells with matched worn cells. That has a better chance of being a lasting method but it is still unproven.
@@miragept The lowest available versions in the US are ~ 51k€ (each state has different sales taxes/registration fees which can add up to 10%). Average age of the US auto fleet is around 12 years, so beyond swapping modules in the event of a defect, these batteries modules will easily be able to find a second life in Energy Storage etc. This is a huge difference versus the newer Tesla pack which are not serviceable due to the rigid "foam" that surround the cylindrical cells.
Kudos to HKG for sticking with a serviceable battery, even taking into consideration some parts that may need to be replaced and allowing them to be replaced without removing the battery. All those things play a huge role in the likelyhood of being able to keep these on the road for years or even decades, since being able to replace individual components is far more cost effective for a vehicle owner than having to replace entire massive, expensive assemblies. It's also a lot better when it comes to recycling at EOL. Although I know Sandy tends to disagree because he's only concerned about reducing the cost to the manufacturer, *serviceability matters* ! Especially for something that has a huge environmental impact to manufacture, like a car. We need to focus on keeping vehicles on the road longer, not just churning out new ones faster and more easily, especially since that reduction in cost is rarely ever passed to the consumer.
That said, I wish they would come up with a better solution for heating/cooling the battery. Building the heat exchanger into the bottom of the battery case is great for manufacturing, but the thin composite cover they put over it is not very effective, especially in cold temperatures. I saw this issue in my Ioniq5 and now the EV9 that replaced it. The battery gets very cold, very quickly in cold weather, leading to either slow charging or a lot of energy spent on battery heating/preconditioning during road trips. It also reduces the heat energy available for the heat pump system to scavenge from the battery, reducing efficiency.
There is no free lunch.
The serviceability come at a cost in reliability, weight, and price.
If your parts are reliable or age in a similar manner, it become waste.
I would say make all the battery pack one glued thing, but make it very light, reliable, cost effective.
Grind the whole battery pack to ore if something fail.
Currently, companies with systems that exceed Hyundai-Kia's thermal management system are not taking much advantage.
Manufacturing, as I said, becomes expensive. If there are a lot of people willing to pay that higher price, of course, the manufacturer will reinforce that, but the reality is that it's not.
the BEST battery pack , is ONE that ZERO maintenance is Required for LIFE of the Vehicle.
Need an insulating cover for winter. There's a Canadian company that makes kits for Tesla
Tom's explanations have gotten really good over time. Vulgarisation is just right, not too much details and enough technical for the audience. He is almost at Carl's level!!!
Would listen to the Munro professionals talk all day about this kind of thing.
Clear, good, and succinct presentation and video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really like the video. This bloke seems to know his business.
한국은 지금 전기차에 주도권을 잡기위해서 엄청난 노력중입니다. 배터리 기술은 전세계 최고수준이라고 말할수있습니다.
The thickness of that thermal paste almost looks like they are using it for shock absorption also.. It lets each module float on a bit of cushion. Rather than filling it with foam/glue like Tesla does.
Tesla battery pack , are ZERO maintenance for LIFE of the Vehicle.
@@markplott4820 Yes.. they all are.. across every brand.
@@markplott4820 Until they go bad!!!
@@markplott4820So is every other vehicle out there 😂 “supposedly”. Tesla is not special.
Di-section of the HVJB would be very interesting too, not just the module. So the peripherals from the front and rear of the battery.
Hyundai/KIA too reliant on OUTDATED Legacy TECH.
What a great analysis and breakdown. Thanks guys.
Thermal interface material if designed or chosen appropriately can be thick and effective. Look at GPU memory modules thermal pads… they can be quite thick, yet effective. I bet the thickness was chosen based on “reasons”. Thickness doesn’t mean much in this application. It’s not a CPU or a direct die GPU.
such a great explain, thanks for your service really expensive speach and good job kia with hyundai
The reason for the thickness of the thermal interface material could be to allow it to maintain contact with the cells as the cells move around and change shape during charge cycles and during their overall lifetime. A thin layer would be unable to do that.
Regarding the thermal paste thickness, I wonder if the paste itself is acting as a form of vibration suppression. The fact that it is so thick makes me suspect that it has a secondary duty of some kind.
very possible
That's quite a few fasteners! I'm sure Mr Munro will have an opinion on that :)
I thought that was going to be the call out!
All of those mid pack through bolts and parts has to be pretty pricey.
TESLA structural battery pack , weighs LESS & uses less WIELDS & Fastners.
@@markplott4820 ugh, muskrats
I like these E-GMP packs. This one is like in my Hyundai Ioniq 5, albeit larger for the EV9.
so, you LIKE outdated TECH and battery that Dont LAST........gotcha.
@@markplott4820 👈 Pe'troll. Do the fossil fools pay you per post? or are you on salary?
We need an ICCU breakdown why are they failing
한국의 전문가 그룹도 매우 칭찬했습니다. 배터리 시스템은 비용 절감에 대해 생각하지 않고 설계,생산 했다고 말했습니다.
They do not want to remove heat or add heat TOO FAST. It is one plate. It means there is a gradient. And also... the cell is thermally adjusted from one side. So temp Delta should me not that great. So thick paste is actually a good design choice - limiting heat transfer to managable level. It is a Kia, not Lamborghini.
How effective is it to cool the battery if only one side is being cooled? So one side could be red hot, no? That would still damage the battery, no?
@@Cjdergrosse No battery damage will occur.This battery pack is also used in the Ionic 5n. It is a proven system that does not cause battery overheating even after several rounds of the track.
I think during warranty, manufacturers will try to fix by replacing modules.
Post-warranty, I think to reduce liability risks, manufacturers will likely only sell us complete packs.
참 좋은 설계 개념을 가진 차네요.
좋은 엔지니어링.
It's a mistake to think the hardest use the cells get is while driving. That's wrong! The hardest use is fast charging. Fast charging uses 5 to 10x more current compared to driving, and the cells have worse efficiency when charging compared to discharging. Normal driving, or even racing, is like nothing to these batteries. All the cable thickness and cooling system is basically solely designed for charging.
Pack is awesome
Love seeing the teardown footage!
Thanks E
Superbly elegant. It's time Japan sends its engineers over there to see how it's done. Japan's unpreparedness for a future EV dominated market is scandalous to the point of virtual industrial suicide. Particularly for a country that is utterly dependent on fossil fuel imports.😮
Toyota deceived consumers for 35 years. That tells everything.
Im wondering about the long term effects of the cell thermal gradient created by the cooling plate. The closer to the plate, the wider the thermal swings.
Nice, clean and neat. Doesn't look like a glue factory blew up inside of it, like another manufacturer.
Looks heavy and inefficient
No.. to bad it doesent
Far less impressive than that other manufacturer.
@@boostav Yeah sure... 🤡
All the fasteners and serviceability features lead me to believe they EXPECT a significant number of batteries will need service or repair. A glued together pack is actually more confidence inspiring.
number 1 ev car
Actually it's number 9
I love battery 🔋 technology.. so fascinating i love to learn & work with this battery technology…♥️🙌🏻🙏💯🗣️
go to a Battery Collage.
I really like the Freudenberg DIAvent Venting Valves. They perform very well. It's a great product.
Great video
Thanks!
13:27 Thermal surfaces should be flat to minimize gap. The amount of thermal paste should be as thin as possible for maximum heat transfer and minimum production cost.
Though ioniq5n has the best battery cooling system which uses similar module/pack system with ev9.
something that is missed is...these are pouch cells. you can't have the bottom of the cell touching the metal. the distance is necessary to protect the vulnerable section of the cell.
The thermal resistance of that thick paste must have been a point of contention for 1D/3D thermal CFD engineers during the optimization phase 😂
Wonder if this was impacted by the factory paste dispenser flow rate during assembly.
i take its compromise. Remember cells are shrinking and expanding during cycling too. That adds another dimensionality and needs to be taken into account too. Hence bigger margin.
The CFD engineer would have considered the vibrational movement of the module under harsh driving condition.
The effectiveness of the cooling of the pack was well demnostrated by the Pikes Peak hill climbing racing by IONIQ5N who took the first place and broke the record of Model S plaid. The driver who drove 5N this year and had droven Model S last year commented that there was no power limitation by the battery temperature for 5N driving case but the power of Plaid was constrained caused by the battery temperature at early stage of the race.
It seems the quantity of the thermal interface material is somewhat too much, but it provide the secure interface between the cooling plate and the cell while proctecting the surface of pouch from the shock and vibration. The concerned cooling efficiency was well demonstrated by 5N performance which is far exceeding the power demand from EV9 model.
One of the feature I like for this design is one of the module is replacible if it can be serviced by quailified and experienced staff like Munro team.
Compared to other garages, this shop is squeaky clean...
It almost looks like they use Termal Interface Material for NVH suppression between the battery and the bottom. TIM is expensive. I'd thought thinner (painted on) TIM with battery NVH HD foam around the edges would be a better solution.
It would be useful to measure the thermal conductivity of that material.
Yes, it's a little disappointing that assumptions were made without evidence. In fact the entire module could be bench tested for thermal resistance and heat capacity.
Thank you for sharing, Kia is doing an amazing job and competing with BYD on price but better in quality and not far behind Tesla
Like how it is more repairable than tesla packs, this is the way to go.
TESLA battery packs , DONT require repairs or Maintenance.
@@markplott4820 It's not that you don't need it, it's that you can't do it.
The batteries of Tesla vehicles also break down. Then you have to grind the whole battery.
Looks like a well designed battery pack, easy to service / repair unlike Tesla with all that spray foam everywhere, glued top plates was designed to never be fixed.
The irony of fossil company being more sustainable than the green company.
This is a brand new car . No dirt on anything.
....duh
@@Jessev741 smack , lay flat.
It is great that we don't have to listen to Mr. Munroe angry chatter and unprofessional opinions in this video. Thanks for that!
Those are the best.
@@C4rb0neumstrategic talk vs tactical talk
It would be interesting to see if the plastic cover of the modules is thermoplastic. There are phenolic alternatives with the same look but way better performance during thermal runaway.
it is
@@AntonioDiNunnoEVS Interesting. Then 4 diavents and the thermal protection layer are enough to fullfill the 5min rule. But I would guess the long busbars in the middle of the pack have improved isolation to minimize arcing under thermal runaway?
On design it looks amazing, practically service and expertise are mandatory. My Kia ev9 got coolant leak 4 days after the acquisition while I was on vacation. The local Kia center, didn't see anything apart from coolant being totally missing. They just refilled it. A month later I had the warning Battery issue, it took 6 weeks for the Kia to be diagnosed and repaired. They did replace part of the battery, they had to make their country specialist come to take care of it. And the same leak happened less than 2 days after they gave it back to me. The car is now stuck again. Expertise is key when you create such complex architecture ...
Additionally interesting as I purchased an EV9 several weeks ago. UBER pleased with it on every level so far. A common complaint I see is the front dash monitor contents obstructed by the steering wheel. This is a frustration to be sure. And I am still waiting for the OEMs to get rid of the front seat center console altogether. I want that gone so I can move around in the vehicle freely. It blows my mind that they haven’t figured this out yet. Put the damn cupholders somewhere else for crying out loud.🤯
Why do you think they use thick thermal layer spending more money?
Something you missed???
There is a significant distinction with the cybertruck, which has a substantial impact zone and a considerably more straightforward design.
That’s a lot of thermal conductive putty. It would be interesting to know how much that amount costs.
So how difficult would it be to get the base model 7 passenger and upgrade it to the bigger battery
Munro could be definitive provider of how to manuals to the general public. People would pay. Good idea?
Laughable idea! The "general public" is ill equipped to do any "repairs" on these cars, other than look and marvel. Tesla does have service manuals for their cars, on line, but not how to "repair" a battery, or motor or control module. 😂
Never heard of the Haynes repair manuals?
HV power , is very Dangerous .
you Dont want JOE homeowner , messing around with that.
@@markplott4820 If priced properly, I think only people who are serious would buy disassembly manuals. The world is better when we can take care of our things. A smart society is a good society.
Wonder where you got the EV9 to disassemble
czcams.com/video/EgrnE0haoFY/video.html
한국에서 ev6로 320,000km 주행한 택시 기사님이 있습니다.
Awesome video as always. Interesting to see and listen to the insight about the thermal pads for transferring heat in and out from the battery pack. Looking for to the battery module video!
Thanks.
You're welcome
A very succinct presentation. I love that the bottom of the cells are exposed on the underside of the module. Surely, not hard to re-engineer for half/quarter that amount of paste.
It's sad that Ford have canceled 3 row big suv. In my opinion it is big mistake. What is the reason for that?
EV sales are down across the industry while hybrids are up; they are expecting a downturn in high end consumer spending in the economy; and they are hoping to bring down EV costs as new suppliers come online
Ford gets -95% margin on their EV's. This means that every truck ford sells they eat 100k in cost. They would literally have a better business model buying model Y's, selling it to the people whom order Ford EVs FOR FREE.
They cant make cars. Imagine how good a tesla would be if they spent an extra 100k+ per vehicle.
@@teachingthecode4651 ev sales globally through q2 we're in FACT up over 28% vs 2023 total q1&2 sales.
And yes phevs&other hybrids are up over 32% vs 2023 sales. But evs are not down globally vs 2023 and that is a FACT!
@@teachingthecode4651 They lose -95% margin on every EV they sell. Ford cant make a car. without eating 2x in cost at least. If tesla spent 100k+ on every car they would have eject seats, rockets, and even active spoilers for track.
Those numbers from ford include building new factories to make their own batteries el motors and so on to be profitable on ev sales so it is investment to the future so calculating price this way at this point is political bulshit to satisfy unions, shareholdes and others . It maybe dancing on the thin ice for Ford's future.
월드베스트 테크놀로지!!!
What's it weigh in comparison to the plaid model S similar sized 18650 pack?
They are both NMC so they should be pretty close to each other.
Cybertruck 4680 cybercell & Structural battery pack is the BENCHMARK.
nice pack vs the none serviceable packs of Tesla. My only issue with Kia/Hyundai is their stubborn use of pouch cells. Thermal interface material also too thick and it will dry in less than years. They better make it thin so that it doesnt become of an insulator when it dries.
Is this a pouch cell design or prismatic?
Most of the Koreans stuff sadly is pouch nmc.
@@4literv6why is sad?
@@4literv6 Why sadly?
@@kiwan5425 Inefficient in many ways.
Pouch type is the most dense form in energy.
Thank You
World Peace
선생님들~
대한민국 기술의 현대, 기아를 사랑해주셔서 감사헙니다
Damn! Stripped another one!
This looks so well put together, teslas batteries are a mess. And KIA still gets very high efficiencies just as good as tesla. I have a feeling these cars will run for longer than teslas
Surprised to notice Hyundai never bothered to clean up aluminum mig welds in the battery pack casing. At the first glance I thought some component in there has let the smoke out in quite an eplosive manner! A classic implementation of cost reduction my avoiding uncecessary finish.
Good point that's a quite nice and easy battery to service and a nice use of a cold plate. Bad points it looks to be a heavy battery pack with all of that wiring, metal and cases within cases.
As far as I know, the current battery pack is lighter than Tesla.
Your interpretation is wrong. HMG's BSA is lighter than any other brand's BSA.
Pouch cells or prismatic cells?
i think the safey of the pack should be the number one concern. as a DIYer, I love the idea of the easy access to the whole battery for repair. however the idea of someone messing with the battery leaving it prone to fire scares me. I recently bought a used EV and the idea that the battery has been tampered with is worrisome. sealed packs probably is the way to go for peace of mind and insurance coverage.
i think we need to start looking at the big picture how all these little choices of design with affect not just the now, but future functions.
there's no future in unserviceable vehicles and I on the other hand would not but second hand a vehicle with a pack that is difficult or impossible to service
@ALCLCFVIS ya exactly. This is exciting to see! It makes me imagine a future were I could easily upgrade my ioniq6 battery with new battery tech that comes out. Keep the aluminum structure, easily replace battery management and packs. Perfect.
@@dakotapahel-short3192 New tech = new cabling / structure / modules / processes etc. You better of replacing the while pack then just a few components. If the new tech means higher voltage, there is no way to retrofit it in, since that means completely different wires throughout the car and not just the battery etc.
If you seal it, even if some of the cells are defective, you have to do the whole replacement. Who pays for it? From a long-term perspective, we need a structure like that because it needs to be repaired.
I think you can provide something like a sealing seal with the manufacturer's formula.
wait till these cars light up because someone did a hack job repair. i’m sure your insurance will cover it.
We should normalize those coolant fittings to be a machined surface with mounting bolts.. So that if the fitting itself gets damaged, they can easily be changed without removing the battery. Mounting the fitting directly to the pack like that needs to go away. It should be more serviceable than what they are doing. If some random chicken runs out into the road and breaks your water line, you now have to pull the entire battery and split it apart to even begin a repair (which looks like it can't even be done)... This is unacceptable... I will say: at least they didn't make the fittings plastic, like Tesla does.
Cool
👍👍👍👍
Wouldn't it be beneficial to have the cooling plate on top of the pack (heat rises), instead the bottom?
liquid emersion.
It's heat conduction rather than natural convection.
What about road debris and eventual perforation of the cooling sheet? I've seen this happening to the Porsche Taycan on speed bumps, pretty much the same design.
wow, this battery pack is easy to replace, simplified, clean, very well organized. Preferred over the messy Tesla EV packs. Kia and Hyundai has better engineering and design than Tesla. It seems like Tesla is so in a hurry to push models out the door without thinking about simply repairing these EVs. Tesla with the stamped out chassis and body will be overly expensive to repair or replace where owners can’t afford to pay for the repairs. This will hurt Tesla sales.
This design is actually the old design and Tesla had this in their first EV's, a lot of companies are using it now. This is because they are still behind in pack design and only take a safe route. This means, added cost for manufacturing, since this is a pouch design, it need prob 3x the production cost and time of a Tesla pack. Not to talk about all the manual labour for the cabling. Add to that all the extra cost for the materials (glue / cables / bolts / seperated packs). You prob looking at a way higher cost of manufacturing compare to Tesla's design. There is a reason Tesla is nearly the only EV maker actually making profits of their vehicles. The other sell mostly at a loss or if lucky break even.
So far there has not been any Replacement done on battery packs, it too risky to do and to much of a cost. You prob looking at a 10k+ work cost for a 400$ replacement. It not worth the risk of unbalancing the pack and killing it, or even make the pack catch fire if it overloads.
Other companies are mostly copying what Tesla is doing with a delay of 3-5 yearrs. A lot of companies are now switching to 1 full casted body at the front and back, many years after Tesla is already doing it in full mass production. This reduce cost and time. Do not come that this is hard to repair... If any of those part is damaged, your car is a full write off no matter if it was a full casting on 400+ different parts.
KIA batteries only last 2 - 3 years.
TESLA battery pack last 50+ years (LFP).
@@markplott4820 I have a ‘22 Kia EV6 GT with no battery degradation
Elon's mouth will affect sales far more than their crude mechanical design.
Question?
Is that battery tray or. housing all 1 piece? The outside not the pieces inside.
Perhaps that thermal interface, is used as a insulator?
What's that busbar made out of.
Busses. 🙄 Copper or Aluminum, with plastic outer insulation (i.e. the Orange Stuff)
First!
Yeah Buddy!
Excellent
That is a lot of cabling and bus bars!
you are catching on.
Silly question. Why use a pack of small batteries with connectors ect. And just have one massive battery?
If you mean removing modules then yes, that is what a lot of manufacturers are doing. If you mean cells, then no, cause each cell only has about 3,5-4V so in any case they need to be combined to get higher total voltage. A bigger cell doesn´t not equal high voltage.
Cost is the biggest factor, if there's a bad cell/pouch or two during construction of the battery, it's a lot more difficult to repair a monolithic battery vs just swapping out a cell group.
individual MODULE replacement.
GRUBER motors , replaces TESLA modules as needed , 2009 Roadster still RUNNING in 2024.
It's not silly question. First you need the voltage so that means a minimum number of series groups. But parallel cells can be minimised and Hyundai/Kia did exactly this between the gen-1 Kona/Niro with 98S-3P and Gen-2 with 96S-1P.
@@boredKiwi thx
I am 65 and have owned maybe 2 or three cars still under warranty, and I keep them forever. I am currently reconditioning and rebuilding the hybrid battery in my Lexus. This is my major dislike for Tesla's disposable structural battery pack. Unlike this battery or my Lexus, zero option to repair. Not even a BMS.
I felt same way, but Tesla battery should last at least 10 years and still can be replaced, even if structural.
As Elon said and Sandy think of it as a high grade easily recycled ore source!
@@4literv6 All battery packs are high quality ore. Including the one in this video, that can be repaired and rebuilt. I am rebuilding my Lexus battery for $500. Tesla structural battery is $15k every time. The number one benefactor of the structural battery pack is Tesla. Not the car owner.
@@stix2you I retired from a Honda dealership last year after 30+ years of working on cars.
This Hyundai has 1 BMS.(one point of failure) You don't even have to pull the battery to replace it. Structural battery has 4 that may possibly break, anyone of which will doom battery.
Hybrids are UNSUSTAINABLE.
the Hybrid battery is OVERSTRESSED , only lasts 2 - 3 years.
TESLA battery pack , can last 50+ years (LFP).
If the battery has a Vmax of 643V why is it referred to as 800 volt architecture?
Marketing....
Through switching control,
DC-BUS has an 800V system.
It is true that the efficiency of DC-DC is high when the maximum voltage of the battery is close to 800V,
but the claim that it is not an 800V system because the maximum series voltage of the battery is not 800V is wrong.
they LIED. and it matters.
@@whyissueTV 왜이슈님 여기도 왔네 ㅎㅎ 잘보고 있습니다
It's the nominal voltage.
✌️
i would have loved to see what an EV9 with a BYD Blade battery pack would look like, there looks to be so much structure in that pack
It is high-performance that is not compared to BYD battery packs.
@@lovecats353 i mean the Yangwang U8 is pretty damn high performance nad uses BYD Blade batteries
3:15 They vent towards the cabin? Yikes.
If they vented down the vent could get damaged by road debris. But there is still a solid floor pan between the passengers and the top of the battery, and the vents are at the far fore and aft ends. It doesn't vent into the cabin.
@@stephenj4937 It does vent in the vicinity of the cabin which is not good for occupant safety. Road debris won't damage the vents if they're properly located and recessed.
11:34
Funny😂😂
As BMW tec, i leard to not put anything on top of the cell modules
And then the wobbling tool
What probabbly should go wrong, w
Right ?? 😂😂😂😂
That thick thermal material also adds significant weight to this car.
Which car model is burning the most other cars and buildings? Pro rata and total.
Scorched ships and car parks making the news more and more.
Such a trash. Plastics cover cells and even no covers at the bottom. As there are many fire cases on Hyundai Kia EVs thesedays so huge cocerns.
It is a special glass fiber plastic that has a higher melting temperature than aluminum. It is not a plastic that melts like your keyboard.
Polymer compound engineering plastics._These special plastics will not be pierced by heating at 1,100 degrees for five minutes, but aluminum will. Aluminum is said to melt at 660 degrees.For reference, CZcams_'Munro Live' ch(Automotive_Engineering Group)
@user-zs7zp7en9c nah the plastic material is MPPO GF10 which is able to stand only 140 C degrees not 1100 C.
czcams.com/video/DaaPMk7BR88/video.htmlsi=_kTtTVEaAhq-GlFB&t=410
Each manufacturer has different recipes.
What I want to say is that the parts you call _trash_plastic_ are not the same plastic as your_keyboard.
The bottom part of the battery is designed for cooling. When the battery is on fire, the heat and flame face upward. Please note that designers are not_amateurs like us.
The last thing I want to say is that plastics with higher melting temperatures than aluminum are being used in the industry.
It’s not even 600V, so calling it a 800V architecture is a big stretch 😂
KIA lied
As a Large Family of 10 I am disappointed that there aren't any affordable SUV or Full sized Van Ev's available with seating for 10 or more passengers. A chevy Express Ev or a Transit EV with long range 400 to 500 miles and passenger seating would be excellent, but even the ICE versions are north of 60k new which is way too expensive.
A EV van with that range, would need a 150-200kWh pack, that’s 1.5-2 miles/kW, so think inefficient because of mass. That cost would be 70-100k
Those inlet and outlet pipes look fragile and I bet they crack where they mount to plate over time
hahaha
egmp는 모든 자동차 회사를 통틀어 가장 이상적인 배터리 모듈이다.
Very elegant battery pack, still not readily for a full ev. Charge times and range need to be closer to petrol.