Alright guys, I've seen plenty of arguments disagreeing with my take on the chips, which is about what I expected, so I've done a stream where I addressed as many of them as I can. It can be found here: czcams.com/users/liveLJIKxkQAeuk?si=lGxsHtgafMHeb7FI If I didn't address your points for why the chips don't work, I do apologize, but this is as much as I'm willing to do about this subject. Following this, I will not be arguing about the chips any further; we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think the settings work for both, the EU establishing that the Jedi were horrible commanders since they weren't military generals and just space monks being the equivalent of the rich noble family being captains and officers during ww1 forcing their own men to walk to their deaths makes the choice of order 66 more believable as most the clones had no love for their Jedi commanders say for a select few. For clone wars they made the clones have a close relationship with all their Jedi commanders, I still prefer the choice of order 66 over the chip but both work
Honestly for me the debate was settled when you raised the point that Palpatine wouldn’t hedge everything on the off chance that the clones wouldn’t follow through on his command. And I’ve yet to hear any argument that makes more sense. This isn’t just some ploy Palpatine is doing to thin the Jedi numbers. This is the big move, the move that reveals his hand and intentions and leads to him seizing control and creating the empire. This is the pivotal move that every action he took so far has lead to. Decades of groundwork and deception to allow this to happen. And you expect me to believe he’d risk it all, all that effort and sacrifice on the off chance not every single clone trooper is all on board for massacring the Jedi who they fight with side by side? “Well you see the clones didn’t like the Jedi.” See, I don’t like a lot of people, that doesn’t mean I will start blasting them when someone gives me the all clear to kill em. “The Jedi were bad commanders, hated by the clones who considered them aristocrats.” Every single Jedi? Each and everyone? First of all that’s clearly not the case in this series. And even then, all it takes for that plan to backfire is one or two good, competent, well liked Jedi generals. At best your disgruntled clones kill the majority of the Jedi but you still have a few Jedi left who have loyal clones to fight for them. At worst the majority of the clones don’t follow through because of the few good, well liked Jedi and almost none of the Jedi are killed and now Palpatine will have played his hand and the game is up. Another reason why I like the chip more, is that keeping the chip a secret requires only a handful of people to keep their mouth shut. While not having it be the chip means millions of clones knew about the order, what it meant, and all MILLIONS of them never spilled a thing for years. Yeah I don’t buy that for one second.
@@William2669 You have a very, very poor grasp of what military training and a literal lifetime of conditioning and brainwashing will do to people. Soldiers can and have done far, far worse, with far less justification and pretense than 'I am genetically conditioned soldier raised and born in a military environment and was told by The Great Leader TM to kill the bad men', and to unironically think it's something that's strange to contemplate or hard to believe is more an indicator of your own sheltered naivety then it is anything else. There's also just the simple fact that your premise is bad to begin with; because it's TCW primarily that's responsible for making clones so just more human like and, relatively, innocent and carefree. The chips were a solution to a problem they created. Also, lul what about keeping what secret? Order 66, per the old line of reasoning, wasn't at all a secret.
@@William2669 You finding the idea that genetically conditioned, pre-disposed-to-obedience soldiers that have been raised and brainwashed over the course of a literal subjective lifetime to be undyingly loyal doing awful things in service of their government hard to believe is deeply, deeply amusing. The entirety of human history is filled to bursting with militaries and soldiers doing far, far worse things than killing their commanding officers with far, far less justification than a direct order from The Great Leader, a man you are literally programmed to be obedient to and make your heart go doki-doki. This is more an indication of your own sheltered naivety than it is an actual argument. Ultimately, the chips were a solution to an artifical problem TCW created by making the clones so much more human, and relatively innocent and carefree than they were formerly depicted. Also, lul what? Order 66, per the old reasoning, wasn't a secret thing at all.
Remember, kids. The planned story arcs about Ventress' sacrifice, Boba vs Cad Bane and Maul escaping Sidious couldn't get animated, but we instead got 4 episodes of the Martez sisters. Yikes
@@vetarlittorf1807 Yeah, but honestly, I'm glad that episode didn't get made. It would have ruined the importance of the NJO series in the lore, which is about our heroes facing a threat never faced before in the history of the Galaxy.
@@vetarlittorf1807 But there was no direct contact between the Vong and the inhabitants of the galaxy. They only spied hidden and, every time someone noticed their existence, they completely ran back to their galaxy. In the TCW episode there would have been direct contact between the Vong and the Republic, which would surely have also created plot holes and contradictions with respect to what was told in NJO
@TheAbsolutistDetective I feel like an arc like that would have been more along the lines of grey alien encounters and whatnot. Lucas wanted to Vong to not be immune to the force and remove the sadomasochitic elements because well obviously. I feel like the story would have worked better as a nod to the NJO novels
That Cartoon Network commercial teasing the Umbara arc brought back strong memories. After the arc concluded, I remember thinking, even as a kid, that Pong Krell might've been a little bit worse than "a substitute teacher who isn't as cool as your regular one."
Isn't the opposite more true? That your normal teacher who has to put up with everyone's s**t all year is the strict one and the substitute DGAF and lets you get away with whatever because he doesn't have to deal with the long-term consequences of it, thereby being the "cool" one by child logic?
@@samwellcheck562 Honestly, I've seen it both ways. What you describe is probably more common, but I definitely remember a few times where a substitute, whether out of a desire to not be the typical laidback sub that you described or simply because he had a stick up his butt, was *way* more strict than the normal teacher.
It's a slippery slope, besides the 3d engine couldn't do what the 2d animation could do. Theoretically it's possible to make the 3d Grievous to move that fast, but I have yet to see it.
Man I wish he was treated better he is my favorite character and had so much potential but nah he gets to be a mustache twirling coward and just straight up fucking stupid
Holding a revenge grudge for like 30 years that supposedly was powerful enough for Maul to channel so much of the dark side he resisted death from what should have been lethal wounds is basically the Sith equivalent to a marriage proposal lol.
I never noticed it as a kid but it is really funny to me now that Grievous, on screen, literally only wins 3 fights he's in, and 2 of them were against a little girl that he still failed to like actually win against. The only guy he actually manages to kill is the goofy fish man in that one episode.
And even THEN, that one win against the fish Padawan was due to him catching him off-guard with a secret blaster shot to the stomach with one of his split arms rather than through a proper lightsaber duel, as the fish Padawan seemed to be winning the lightsaber clash against him until that very moment. Let me repeat, the cyborg specifically designed to overwhelm and hunt jedi was losing a lightsaber clash against a fucking Padawan before he whipped out his gun. It's like Filoni can never give Grevious a proper win without make him resort to cheap tactics.
He’s basically the star wars version of Warf at this point. Theoretically a fierce warrior but in actuality just a plot device to make other people look badass.
@@chasehedges6775 exactly. I know that given the limitations of the format it was made for it can come off like playing battlefront on speed but i do think that on the whole 03 CW just did a better job of bridging and supplementing the movies than CaloniWars
I truly despise the "Kids Show" argument, as if children somehow can't appreciate world-building and character consistency. I remember, as a child, loving it when TV shows referenced older episodes and used them as a basis to tell a new story; even if I didn't know what continuity was, I could still appreciate it.
If anything, I think consistent, mindful storytelling in children’s media is even more necessary than in adult media - if we uncritically accept garbage in our formative years, we most certainly will in our adulthood. I unironically think that cartoons that respect and empower children’s intelligence and maturity is one small thing among many that can prevent societies from falling into dogmatism and authoritarianism. I’m sure the Galactic Empire’s state-sponsored children’s media is absolutely inane. 🙃
Compare Avatar the kids cartoon against the "mature" live action adaptation. The cartoon is a thousand times more mature and nuanced. Only the coat of paint is more juvenile.
@@robynsun_love I think this is a very good take. I don't personally know anyone who grew up on trash media that ended up accepting it later in life, but I do know many people who just kinda tolerate anything, and they almost always grew up on mediocrity. All the nitpickers, all the people who think about the media they're consuming, they all grew up with nuanced shows and films and books. Kids products don't have to be immature.
Imagine if we had an episode where Dooku after finding out Maul lives went out of his way to try and kill or capture Maul and it was because Maul killed Qui-gon. Imagine if him being Qui-gon's master affected anything. Imagine he ever did anything. This baffles me. So we have Qui-gon's master and the guy who killed him in the same show and... nothing. That could have written itself but I guess giving Dooku any character or motivation beyond "mWahahaha, I'm evil!" was not allowed.
So I found this comment yesterday while scrolling on my phone and Wanted to add to it but life and my phone prevented me from doing as I had hoped So taking Your comment in mind: *maul and Dooku circle eachother with Lightsabers drawn* "So The Old man Send the Blind Fool to Tie UP his Loose ends" - Maul says as he eyes the Count warily "Even were it not My Masters Will, I would have sought you out to the ends of the Galaxy To Put You Down Beast" Dooku Sneers "What's the Matter Jedi?" Maul Taunts "Afraid I'd Grown in Power enough to Threaten your Place by the Old Prunes Side?" *Dooku's Eyes Flasing orange With the Power of the Dark Side* -"You KILLED MY SON"
56:30 One detail I love, which is very subtle, is in Attack of the Clones, when Coleman Terbor tries to take Dooku by surprise. When Coleman is about to strike Dooku, he's killed by Jango. Dooku turns and grins to Jango, turns and looks towards where Coleman fell and grimaces, then looks back to the battle mournfully. This all happens over like 3 seconds.
It also demonstrated how weak and complacent the Jedi became that a random bounty hunter could take out a Jedi pretty easily. Pretty much the entirety of the Coliseum fight demonstrates how out of touch and in over their heads the Jedi Order became.
@@LobsterwithinternetThat random Bounty Hunter was the best at his time and had matched Obi Wan while unprepared.I mean,send Jango back a thosand years and put him against your avarage Jedi Councill member and just like the dinasour man they would be gutted.Besides that,i aggre with you.
@@LobsterwithinternetCalling Jango Fett "a random bounty hunter" is ludicrous. Jango was THE bounty hunter of his era much like Boba would be, he was by far the most skilled Mandalorian and only lost to Mace Windu, who is one of the strongest "normal" Force users (not counting Anakin/Palpatine).
I feel Warhammer 40k suffers a bit from this. The Horus Heresy, one of the most defining moments in history for that universe, only lasted about 10 years. Sure, writers of novels have managed to create some of the series' best stories from that short date range, I still feel it could have benefited from a longer timeframe. Maybe add in more details about how humanity was weakened from decades of civil war, and how other races once on the verge of extinction could see a resurgence or even band together.
Fun Grievous facts according to current canon: 1. He was once a Kaleesh warlord whose culture and planet were desecrated by a war that the Republic and Jedi are directly responsible for supporting the other invading side. If that wasnt reason enough to hate the Jedi, his partner was killed horrifically in front of him during this conflict; literally being ripped limb from limb. 2. His descent into being a cyborg started out being intentional: small modifications here and there to help him fight. However, an accident that Dooku secretly orchestrated called for the complete reconstruction. 3. Grievous was present in the Battle of Geonosis. Nobody reported seeing him because nobody lived to report seeing him. 4. The Battle of Hypori is still canon, and is the first time he became known to the Republic. The point of why I bring these up is to demonstrate how badly CG Clone Wars fumbled the ball in eatablishing this backstory, as this all comes from canon comics and visual dictionaries.
Grievous she has been treated like a slasher villain a seemingly unstoppable monster the Jason or leather face. Something that even hardend Jedi are daunted to face. Like for example the Jadi could have a flee on-site order for only one under the rank of master, and even then you can't engage him in one on one. Build his up as the moster of the CSI. And then show us he is far more terrifying. That should have been Grievous.
He's a bounty hunter, it makes sense he'd be on both. Sifo Dyas's foresaw a conflict which would end the Jedi so he wants an army made from the best specimen, Jango Fett. Count Dooku is a politician who wants the best body guard available so he goes to Jango.
@@nohbuddy1 I looked in my comment again. If we're only using the films and TCW as a refence the only thing they don't mention which I brought up is Dyas' vision but still, he wants an army so he goes to the strongest speciman
Tbf, there are multiple situations irl where democratic countries find themselves accepting help even from terrorists; people make similar statements as to why the US had aided the Mujahadeen in the past, I view the Republic's collaboration with Kamino and the clones to be similar.
I’m not 100% convinced the Jedi would be able to reach the conclusion that the Clones are specifically designed to kill Jedi with just the information they got in Season 6, but I would expect them to look into the circumstances a little more than not at all. Those chairs must be pretty comfy, since all they seem to do is sit on their asses and agree the wisest course of action is inaction.
Speaking on order sixty-six more specifically, while the EU went into more detail about it, I think the fact that it's the sixty-sixth order does enough by itself to establish that there was a huge list of emergency orders for all sorts of situations specifically to disguise the one that Palpatine was planning on using the whole time, which is why it didn't get caught out.
But the Jedi wouldn’t have a list of these orders when they’re GENERALS ? And even if said list stops at 65, how do you keep a secret with billions of individuals knowing about such an order ?
@@lindos602 The Jedi had a list with all of the orders (of which there were many more then 66) and the list included orders for establishing martial law, bombarding a planet, arresting senators, arresting the chancellor and arresting jedis. All of them were established as contingency plans. Order 66, where a clone unit was ordered to attempt to arrest their jedi commander could have and realistically should have raised suspicions, but when there were also other such extreme orders in the list, it is more reasonable that they did not take action to remove what to normal politicians must have looked like a reasonable list of contingency plans (although I will say there's some really worringsome authoritarian stuff in those orders, if anything the Senate would have been more opposed to it, but here we're talking about the Jedi). On another note, however, there is something that is never made clear. Order 66 must be given individually to each unit. Logically, Palpatine would have issued the order to each theater command, who would then relay the order to local commanders. However, the movies contradict this, as Palpatine is shown directly messaging junior officers, and even a simple pilot, which makes the whole thing ridiculous: are we to believe the Republic doesn't have a chain of command other than the jedi?
@@fede98k54 Ok, but you got an important nuance here : arrest, not kill. That still means the Clones have to know the Order 66 as presented in the list is not accurate. And more importantly, it’s never shown in the movies (that one’s on Lucas)
@@lindos602 I will also note that there is an advantage in having the orders be known, as in that way Palpaltine legalizes how he dealt with the Jedi. It also, in theory, makes the logistical issuing of the order easier, as Palpaine wouldn't have to individually call up every single clone unit to whisper "execute order 66" - he could just give the order as the very top of the chain of command and let the GAR deal with it. Or at least, it should give that advantage, were it not for RotS directly contradicting that, which as I said in the previous comment makes no sense.
Speaking of Dooku's character, I loved his Legends origins. In the old continuity, Dooku was forever changed when as a child his best friend Lorian Nodd falsely accused him of stealing the Sith Holocron from his master. That caused Dooku to greatly distrust the Jedi Order, beginning to see them as a bunch of fakes and hypocrites, which ironically caused Dooku to end up immersed in the dark side. I wish TCW had given more depth to the character
Honestly, the idea of Dooku actually seeing first hand how ineffective the jedi order was at protecting the people of the galaxy seems like a much stronger reasoning but that's just me
There is one thing bothers me a little bit about that book. In Qui-Gon and Dooku part, it's establishing that Dooku and Qui-Gon has no real friendship and their relationship is professional. And in Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon part of the book, Qui-Gon says that he doesn't know what Dooku is doing nowadays and he barely even talks with him ever since he knighted. So if they were that cold to each other, why did Dooku so traumatized after Qui-Gon's death and saw Qui-Gon's padawan Obi-Wan as a grandson? It looks confusing. But despite that issue, the overall book was fantastic.
The EU book Dark Rendezvous characterizes Dooku the best in my humble opinion. Yoda is also his more fun-loving, cheeky ep5 self in it. Sadly it varies from author to author how he is depicted, and that also somewhat stands for Ventress and Grievous, Sheevtalks was right about that one.
I say the implant chips are there entirely to fix a problem that the show introduced itself. They "humanized" the clones a bit too much, forgetting that they've been genetically modified to make them more obedient.
They didn't humanize the clones too much, but instead exalted the jedi too much. This is something the EU did better "I'm nothing more than a 12 year old child sent to war and only survived this long out of sheer luck while my closest friends died since my dill-weed generals couldn't command their way out of a paper bag. Higher-ups say kill 'em? About time." Makes the story immediately more engaging than "I love my jedi 😊 **chip activates** I hate my jedi 😡"
@@LowResCatExplosionHonestly it’s a lot deeper than “I love them and now I hate them.” They fought alongside their generals for years, Jedi who… mostly, took care of them but they’re in a war which will cause clones to die regardless. But the chips force the clones to kill their Jedi regardless of what they want, and several clones live to regret it for the rest of their lives. Pretty much murdering their friends/war-brothers that have been developed throughout the entire show.
@@akillerpro7582 And that's only a problem because of the way the show characterized the Jedi-Clone relationship in a way completely divorced from all previous depictions of them. There are several exceptions, but it's always mentioned that Anakin or Etain Tur-Mukan treat Clones differently from the rest of the Jedi. They don't all have to be (and they weren't all, unless you ask Karen Traviss) harsh, but most of them did not treat the Clones as normal soldiers.
You got it wrong.The problem the chips fix is the mind reading ability of the force users,which is from at least RotJ. While that power was used by Vader,Obi-wan's first force power use on screen shows mind stuff is also used by Jedi.,so the chips would be required to catch them by surprise.
@@naamadossantossilva4736 Mind reading wasn't a factor. Just one of a long list of orders the Clones were conditioned to follow without question. The Clones would have no reason to think of the orders before carrying them out.
You can't cut from Clones like Rex and Cody having strong friendships with their Jedi generals to "And then, they killed their masters with no issues!" The retcon of the chips was necessary _because_ of TCW. The narrative was leading to the Clones having _more_ loyalty towards their Jedi generals, not less. If Filoni was thinking ahead, he would've started at least as early as season 3 to start making this relationship break down, showing more and more Jedi who consider clones expendable. He should've shown even our main characters like Obi-Wan ordering hundreds of clones to their deaths, explaining why Cody would have no compunction ordering a walker to blast him out of existence. There are smart ways you can do this without depicting Obi-Wan or the other Jedi as straight-up evil, especially if you depict these moments as difficult decisions where the Jedi have to choose between saving civilians/targets and their own troops. You can even make this a point of contention between Anakin and the Jedi Council as well as developing Anakin's dislike of the Republic Admiralty and officers which we see boil over in Empire Strikes Back into actually strangling officers for being useless.
Makes total sense. Anakin caring too much about the clones and the rest of the Jedi disregarding them making him hate the Jedi even more. But filoni would never do that
@@StrykeSZN I almost wonder what show we would've gotten if George hired a writer from Star Trek's Next Generation or Deep Space Nine instead of Filoni. This show needed people experienced with writing stories about militaries and soldiers (of sorts), and characters that develop over an episodic series.
I think the chips were necessary just bc Palpatine trusting that LITERALLY EVERY SOLDIER would turn against the jedi would have been way riskier than literal mind control chips. Also bc I like the Clones very much. AND the angsty potential of them realising what they did is so interesting (e.g. Cody in Bad Batch) Overall I can admit CW has its issues but I dont really care bc it has never ruined the fun for me. And I think it was 1000% a very worthwhile show to watch and rewatch.
Honestly this ties back into something that I think has been done poorly in the Disney era in general - by the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of the Empire, the average galactic citizen's opinion of the Jedi should be quite low, and should take a very long time to recover. Palpatine's destruction of the Jedi obviously hinges on physically killing them off with Order 66, but perhaps even more importantly it requires that the institution of the Jedi Order be so undermined that they leave no legacy in the public consciousness either. What's the point in offing the Jedi if everyone starts asking for the galactic peacekeeper heroes to come back and starts asking uncomfortable questions about why they *all* had to go? The fall of the Jedi Order happens in this nicely woven simultaneous decline in its physical power as the Jedi are scattered and attrited by the fighting of the Clone Wars, in its moral authority as the Jedi are brought into conflict between their own ideals and the needs of the state and the war they're caught up in, in its own ideology as complacency and arrogance undermine the Order from within, and even in its supernatural power as the growing influence of the dark side and the general malaise of the wartime environment is described as clouding their vision of the Force. This all comes to a head with Order 66, naturally, as the Jedi are unceremoniously killed and nobody aside from a small handful of characters that wised up to the manipulation and sabotage of the Order mourns its loss. The Sith victory over the Jedi *requires* that the Jedi must be conceptually trashed as well, if nothing else than for the purposes of maintaining their own authority and stamping out attempts to revive the Jedi. We as the audience might think the Jedi are cool and heroic and great and want to see them succeed, but Palps needs the galaxy to think that the Jedi were bad enough that their destruction was, at a minimum, a necessary evil, and preferably it should be perceived as deserved justice. The OT depicts the Jedi and Force users in general as marginalized, ridiculed, and considered impotent despite leading armies not 20 years ago. As far as the general public knows, the Jedi were a bunch of entitled goody-twoshoes cultist elites whose tricks and attempted coup ended up being no match for the conventional apparatus of the Grand Army of the Republic and the wisdom of a regular person - Chancellor Palpatine.
The fact that the Jedi find out that the clone army was created by Dooku and don't put two and two together to realize that the entire war was just created by Dooku and his master as a scheme to weaken the republic and take over the galaxy is hilarious to me. Keeping in mind that Dooku flat out told Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones, that Sidious was the man pulling the strings behind everything.
I used to think the same. But seeing how much political ignorance exists today, including dogmatic denial of proven lies and committed crimes, it became way more believable to me. Sometimes people *want* to believe something so bad, that they flat out ignore facts until they hit them personally in their faces. Usually it's too late then. And the Jedi are horribly detached from everything. Their council operated from a literal ivory tower, they were dogmatic to a toxic degree and free thinkers were never permitted on the council at all - see Qui-Gon or Dooku. It is totally believable that they were too ignorant to see the truth.
Ob-wan probably didn't trust Dooku's account about a Sith lord puppet master because Dooku was the one who was holding him captive in the first place! Maybe it's just me but if I was in Ben's shoes I would've feel very trustworthy of the guy in front me, while locked in a laser cage. Lol
They knew that is partially true but it was still ordered by someone else so they couldn`t be sure of just how much that affected the clones that were already ordered, so they really couldn`t figure that out. To be fair Dooku could have been bluffing about how much he knew in AOTC especially with Sidious.
Dooku: ''The entire Senate is under control of a Sith Lord.'' The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' Dooku: *Turns out to be Darth Tyranus meaning he definitely knows that as fact* The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' Darth Tyranus: *Turns out to have made the entire Clone Army* The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' The Clones: *Randomly turn on their Jedi masters while claiming to have strictly followed ''orders''* The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' The Clones: *Literally have microchips in their heads* The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' Fives: ''Dude, the entire Clone Army has microchips in their heads that make us turn on our Jedi Masters, and we're going to literally kill you without hesitation once they're triggered because that's what they were designed to do by the Sith Lords who created us.'' The Jedi: ''lol, no.'' Palpatine: *Triggers Order 66* The Clones: *Ruthlessly gun down all the Jedi* The Jedi: ''lo-'' *Surprised Pikachu face* The Clone Wars in summary.
whenever maul is mentioned I cant stop thinking about him in Solo when he was threating/trying to impress Hans Love interest over a hologram by turning on his light saber in dark and presumably empty room. aswell as the unfortunate implications it has a y'know revealing his sword to her.
This video really explains what is honestly my biggest problem with Star Wars as a franchise. Despite taking place in a galaxy far far away a long time ago, there’s a shocking deficiency of imagination and creativity. Most characters, storylines, and concepts are just the most simplistic, straightforward, and most predictable versions that they could possibly be. Very rarely, does the franchise explore itself for opportunities to flesh them out with actual nuance or depth. I understand Star Wars began as a simple hero’s tale adventure with the original trilogy, and if it stayed like that then I wouldn’t have this issue. However, Star Wars also wants to evolve beyond that initial intention to grow up and be taken seriously, but it mostly does that in theory or concept and very rarely in practice or execution.
This is what seperates legends from disney canon. The only real attempt I've seen of disney making something more unique was with TLJ, but that movie executed by one of the worst directors of the modern age, resulting in them just sticking to formula and dave "I feel constrained in a universe with rules" filoni. The expanded universe did what it did, and it expanded the galaxy that George created. Disney doesn't.
On a very similar note it always bothered me that no one capitalized on the star part of Star Wars, despite it being set in space you'd be lucky if you get something as basic as a space station or asteroid field despite both being in the ot. We never see: Gas giants Comets Black holes Neutron stars Regular stars (in any meaningful way, not only are they never an actual factor, SWs doesn't even bother to have stars that aren't clones of our sun) Nebulas Pulsars Probably more stuff i can't think of atm
The only real issue I have this post is the implication that the OT isn't something to be taken seriously or is 'grown up' (whatever that actually means, exactly), as well as the simple fact that you aren't making any attempt to delineate between the modern Disney era media and the before era.
I always hated the fact Anakin had a padawan in the war. The teenage brat who massacred an entire Tusken village officialy getting an apprentice was ridiculous af. It's pretty obvious that even Filoni knew how stupid that artistic decision was, since he characterized Anakin from the first episode with the mature and disciplined personality that he displays in Episode III after serving in the army for years, which makes no sense at all. The most logical choice here would have been to establish Ahsoka as Plo Koon's padawan and create her bond with Anakin through many shared missions
I agree that it's odd Anakin got an apprentice, but idk why you're listing his slaughter of the tuskens as a reason why he shouldn't have. The Jedi never knew that happened. The only people Anakin ever told about it were Padme and Palpatine.
This show is 50% bad, 20% fine, 20% good and 10% actual greatness. I think people really oversell the good and great parts, combined with nostalgia. There’s a reason there are multiple “essential episode” lists that are only fractions and slivers of the show. Not a single C-3P0 or R2-D2 episode ever makes those lists.
@@ForsakenKrios following one of those lists is legitimately the only way I'd recommend the show to anyone. It has some pretty high highs, and some unbelievably low lows. I don't 100% ascribe to the "kids show" argument, but it really does fit the bill in some cases, even for other shows. People put Samurai Jack on a pedestal too and it had some pretty bad episodes even before the final season.
@@ForsakenKrios I would have hated to have to wait 1 week for a CW episode, only for it to be god awful. The beginning of Season 4 is atrocious. It's like Umbara was made to be a big apology 😂
Kind of sad seeing how many content creators nowadays have to dedicate the start of videos such as these to explaining that critiquing something that you find enjoyable does not mean an attack on your person or a push to stop making you enjoy the subject of the video.
The worst thing about Dave Filoni is that he never cared about respecting the continuity established by other authors. When TCW premiered, Legends had solved a large part of its lore contradictions through the holocron of continuity, but everything was ruined when Filoni imposed his own version of the Clone Wars, which had 1,000,000 massive contradictions with what was seen in the 2003 multimedia project (the existence of Rex and Ahsoka, the characterization of Anakin, the social structure of Mandalore, the inhibitor chip, the death of Even Piell, the Nightsisters, etc.) and tried to force it into the old continuity, no matter how totally impossible that would be. Because of that, sourcebook authors like Pablo Hidalgo and Jason Fry tried to justify all this nonsense with statements like "All of the missions Anakin participated in as a Padawan happened in the first few weeks of the war instead of over two years" or "Satine's Mandalorian government covered just a portion of the planet."
Ok let’s talk about the microchips and break this down piece by piece: First of all, it’s weirdly confusing to establish we’re not using the EU, and then immediately defer to the books. The way this segment was worded, I’m genuinely confused. So since you default to using the books, I’m also going to default to using the books. There’s something very, very important you forgot to mention about the incident in Dark Lord: those were Clone Commandos. Clone Commandos and ARCs (so this includes Jangotat as well by the way) were specifically bred with an increased capacity for independent thinking in order to operate behind enemy lines. As in, different from the regular clones. Using this as an example for why the Clone Army was unreliable is disingenuous at best, as the commandos were fundamentally different on a genetic level. The rest of the Clones on Murkhana went along with the order, it was just that one team of clones specifically bred to think independently that took things into their own hands. As for the point about Order 66 somehow being less suspicious. Clone Protocol 66, in the EU, was part of a set of 150 contingency orders that the Jedi did know about. However, here’s the exact wording of the order: "In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established." So like, the Clones have an order to get rid of rogue commanders. Please tell me why the Jedi would be suspicious of an order to get rid of them in the event they go rogue. Also, suppose Palpatine does propose this, he would’ve proposed it along with the other 150. You know what Order 65 was? Let me show you: "In the event of either (i) a majority in the Senate declaring the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) to be unfit to issue orders, or (ii) the Security Council declaring him or her to be unfit to issue orders, and an authenticated order being received by the GAR, commanders shall be authorized to detain the Supreme Commander, with lethal force if necessary, and command of the GAR shall fall to the acting Chancellor until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified as outlined in Section 6 (iv)." So not only did he word the order in a way that looks like a last resort failsafe that would never possibly be . He also put it right under an order to depose him. In other words, he did the same thing he always did with the Jedi, hid it right in plain sight. Please tell me why this is riskier than the chips, which you yourself admit almost led to his plan being uncovered.
This. I think the problem was the shows depiction of the Clones, they were too normal and individually independent, it would have been unbelievable to think they would gun down a Jedi without a second thought like they did in the film. The chip had to be a way for them switch to kill mode.
Also, if we just use Movies and real life analogy: "Jedi are peacekeepers, not soldiers". Not peacekeepers as expeditionary force in our world but diplomats and Red Cross with weapons. The armies are usually their own cast that doesn't like outsiders. So now we have an Army of Breeded Soldiers who don't know anything about live outside the war and pacifist mystic monks turned generals. It is inviting nothing but disaster. In the end after years of war there would a lot of resentment and hate.
The point you raised about Talzins crystal ball also applies to Talzin making Savage strong and force sensitive, like imagine if Palpatine somehow learnt to harness that type of magic, which is not out of the realm of possibility. As by this shows logic anyone can learn Nightsister magic. Someone as archaicly powerful as Sidious who is basically the embodiment of the dark side should definitely be able to tap into it given the proper instruction. So imagine this, Sidious learns how to embue someone with immense strength, durability and grant them force abilities, he could convertly abduct chosen species and turn each of them into the equivalent to Savage Oppress, he wouldn't even need to bother with something like the Inquisitorious were this the case. I mean shit he could build this army in secret over the course of the Clone war and when the time is right unleash them alongside Order 66, the Jedi orders fate would be pretty much sealed at that point. Fuck its all so broken.
That same crystal ball also appears in Jedi fallen order as Merrin uses it, by teaching herself. An experienced force user like papa palps could easily become unstoppable if he had that ball, even if merrin only used a small shard of it.
I am pretty sure Order 66 was a contingency order planned by the Kaminoans prior to the war, the Senate probably had no knowledge of it. Besides, the explanation would be simple; order 66 was an emergency order in case of Jedi going rogue or something along those lines. Several Jedi had become corrupted before and during the war, and public opinion was not favourable towards the order during the war, so most people would take little issue with it.
That's like saying Robots should be programmed with a "Kill all Humans" order because 'some humans have gone rogue' in the past. Order 66 is an explicity decapitation attack on a political body of the Republic because it senteces every member of that body to death simply for being members, it's existence could never be justified as anything other then a planned coup. The Kaminoins would have known themselves to be complicity in that coup. The RotS did not make it clear if Order 66 was just a 'your commanding officer is a traitor and must the arrested or killed' that Palpatine mass copy pasted to every clone unit in the field that had a Jedi with them. The movie allowed for an interpretation that Palpatine was utilizing a standard order which might concivably have been known to everyone. TCW destroys this possibility, lights it on fire and then pisses on it, after what TCW dose it can only make order 66 the most closely guarded secret of Sidious.
I refuse to believe that Maul could strong arm the Hutts when even the Empire couldn't get them to fall in line. And we all know how far the Empire (especially in Legends) is willing to go to make people fall in line and obey their laws
I mean, the Empire could make them fall in line, though...? They had a working arrangement in the old canon, at least. There's certainly no question the Empire could arbitrarily sweep them aside if it came to that.
the empire never cared to make the hutts fall in line cause they were little fish and the hutts never really caused them any serious problems. It's less that the hutts weren't takeable and more that it wasn't worth the time or effort and most of the time they weren't a problem anyway. Maul made it a goal to attack the hutts and he went straight for the Hutts themselves, the only people the hutts gave a damn about
@@warhawk9566 The Empire left formal Hutt space under Hutt control because the Empire was being paid tribute in raw materials that they wanted, the same reason they allowed the Centrality and Corporate sector to retain nominal self governance.
Exactly the real problem is how little defenses they seem to have although that is a nitpick no matter how good there defenses are they wouldn’t be able to stop a Sith Lord but still they really only have a few bounty hunters who could just leave you to die and some pig guards with spears in the building where you keep ALL the hutts during there meeting seriously
TBF, the Hutts explicitly bailed the first time Maul got sent to the shadow realm. After that it was Mando’s, Pykes, and Black Sun. To your point however, Maul probably should have NEVER bullied the Hutts into going along with his little club house.
On your point about "Dark Lord: rise of darth vader" The clones that disobey the orders are clone commandos; that may not sound like anything, but they're a specific type of clone trooper bred with less obedience that the rest of the clones. The rest of the clones (as mentioned in ep 2) were genetically engineered to be obedient to the republic. Clone commandos only make up a microfraction of the GATR and were usually alone in isolated reconnaissance missions (and not with jedi). In short, this is a non-issue already accounted for in EU lore. Edit: all your additional examples fall under this reasoning; just painful hearing you beat this (probably unintentional) strawman. Probably shouldn't have tried to"Uhm ackshully!" people who've actually read this stuff. No; the inhibitor chips and the brainwashing aren't the same. Its "I know I have to do this" vs turning the clones into droids; it turns it from a misinformed choice to them being robots with zero agency.
I don't think the chips are necessary, and I think you pointed out why they became necessary: the expanded content outside of the films including the clones depicts them as beings that are NOT disposable non-humans. They're completely expendable in the films, because they're essentially organic versions of the droids the Republic is fighting. It's considered a waste of time when Anakin decides to help some of them at the start of the 3rd film.
They were and are never necessary, people WHO believe that soldiers that are trained and drilled since birth and also biologically altered to follow Orders cannot follow Orders never looked into History , the Nazis are a huge example of that and they didnt have a decade Long Training ,child soldiers are another example of this, also the Expanded Universe Made Sure to Show that Clones arent goodie to Shows puppies with the Jedi and Had 150 contignecy Orders Not Just one Order that IS somehow easily removed by a basic surgery to save your Favorite filoni OC
Personally, the only reason I’d defend the chips (and the Clones’ individuality by extension) is because the Clones are supposed to be excellent soldiers. Unquestioning obedience to orders by the letter and zero initiative are the characteristics of an incompetent army, not vice versa. On that account, I’d call this discrepancy a fault of Lucas.
@@OrangeMacawWorld Flexible thinking in how to approach a situation is not the same as the ability to disobey orders. Robots are literal and will just do what they are told in a direct, literal sense. The clones have flexible thinking in how to go about what they're told to do. That's their big advantage.
It would have been much better if the show explored that jedi like the protagonists were exceptions in an order of emotionally detached dogmatic monks with 0 experience commanding an army.
I really like how people be like “you hate Star Wars” to Sheev when his channel name is literally a Star Wars character, and has multiple hour+ long videos on it 💀
Nah that showed a "ridgid jedi" who thinks the republic itself has lost it`s way and gotten worse...he still viewed himself as a jedi and the clones as disposible.
Clone Wars 2003 multimedia project: Perfectly chronicles the entire clone wars through books, video games, comics and an acclaimed animated series, masterfully uniting the prequel era with the rest of the Star Wars continuity Dave Filoni: "I am gonna pretend I didn't see that" 🤠
The sad thing is that at first it looked like they were going to at least try fitting in with existing Clone Wars material. I mean, TCW didn't show the early days of the war, Anakin and Ventress are already acquainted, Anakin's Padawan braid is gone, Obi-Wan's mullet is gone etc.
Nah 2003 TCW was good but I think a good-faithed person could agree that it just wasn’t as big in scope, impressive, or compelling due to its mode. That’s why people love Tales of the Jedi, it had a much easier job-less mistakes to make.
@@Jdudec367 Not really. 2003 series fits almost seamlessly with the movies. They even used the right cybernetic arm for Anakin in the early days of the war.
1:04:34 @SheevTalks There's something really major here that you didn't talk about - Namely, the relationship between Palpatine and Dooku, and Palpatine's given reasoning for wanting Ventress gone. See, Palpatine says that he believes Ventress has grown too powerful, and he wants Dooku to get rid of her because he believes that Dooku could be training her to be his own Sith apprentice against Palpatine. The issue here, is that Palpatine has been openly grooming Anakin to be his future Sith apprentice. Dooku knows this. So if Dooku knows that Sidious is planning to ignore the Rule of Two and take on Anakin, how can he possibly accept getting rid of Ventress on the logic that she's too powerful and violates the Rule of Two? Because then, Anakin being made an apprentice can only possibly mean that Sidious is planning to betray Dooku and get rid of him. At that point, the only sensible thing to do would have been for Dooku to recognize that he's being played, and do exactly as Palpatine says he suspected he was doing anyway, and betray Palpatine while taking Asajj as his own true Sith apprentice. And in fact Dooku has every advantage there, since he can out Palpatine as a Sith and already has a galactic military poised to take over the Republic in the resulting chaos. Hell, half the Jedi Order would probably defect and join him if they'd found out that they were working for a Sith Lord and Dooku was right about the Republic's corruption all along. And of course, this is all kind of exactly what Dooku is supposed to do according to the Sith code, betray his master the moment that he's no longer absolutely necessary. I really hope you touch on this next video.
@@Tat011 It's said at numerous points in the EU, DU, and I think even TCW. For example in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Dooku specifically thinks about how the plan is supposed to be Anakin joining him and Sidious.
dude dooku clearly didnt know anakin was replacing him, that's why he was so shocked when sidious told anakin to kill him, he thought for sure his master would save him coz he was under the impression that he (dooku) was the apprentice
I always found it annoying how fives wasn’t the the one with the FIVE FINGER HAND PRINT ON HIS CHEST. Genuinely swap their designs it becomes much better lol
The whole chip argument COMPLETLY misses the whole fan critique of the chips. The Chip makes the clone conditionoing into a on/off switch that the writers use as a get-out-of-jail-free card when ever the choose to 'redeem' a clone. It's bad because it cheapens what should be an act of character development into a plot Mcguffin, it's litteral deus-ex-machina for character development.
Honestly? I couldnt care less. Its valid criticism of course and your opinion is valid Im just offering a different view so I hope this doesnt come off as me being like "nooo ur wrong wuw" See my view is quite simple, childish even, and its: I like the clones and I dont want them to be baddies :( Is it silly? Sure. Maybe. But to be honest I loved getting to know the Clones and I like that despite the horrible conditions they found some friendship with the Jedi (even though its a sticky situation bc ya know SLAVE ARMY). And I like that we have kinda muddied the waters a little bit when it comes to the chip. I feel like the command DOES work. But we see Rex resisting it. We also see Cody obey with no hesitation but he seems like he regrets it, so maybe on some level it is a choice, but resisting is way harder? Honestly Ive never cared. I love Star Wars as it is, all of it. Yes even the sequels, even though I was sorely disappointed, I still find enjoyment in it. I guess Im not a very critical fan😂
Not to rain on your parade or anything but boys in white went on to keep the galaxy under the Empire's boot for two decades straight after that. They aren't anybody's friends. @@francescapatti2934
It is a grave disappointment that Count Dooku and General Grievous were not depicted correctly. Count Dooku was a visionary, a political idealist who saw through the corruption of the senate and tried to make the galaxy a better place for all involved. General Grievous was once Qymaen jai Sheelal and fought to liberate his people from Hukk enslavement only for the Republic and Jedi to side with the very slavers. Their distain and hatred for the Republic were justified and the show could have explored both them in a human light. However instead it tried to degrade Count Dooku and General Grievous into mustache cackling villains. Clearly this show is made as blatant Pro-Republic propaganda. The show also should have explored more of the causes of why so many Outer Rim worlds seceded from the Republic and truly make the main characters question just how righteous the Republic's cause is when they are trying to force star systems back into their government at blaster point.
32:24 My suspicion is that this is the result of a larger overarching issue with the show, its non-chronological anthology structure. The show is never clear about where in the timeline any individual arc takes place. There is some degree of chronology, but for all intents and purposes the story resets at the end of every arc and there is no clear info on how much time passes between them. This creates a lot of problems when it comes to overarching character plotlines, as they’re essentially in a perpetual limbo for most of the series. What I suspect happened here is that because everything exists in "non-specific limbo-time between AotC and RotS", the dialogue writers didn’t know the exact timeline. So they defaulted to "over 10 years" and no one caught the discrepancy.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the chips. Not because I think they're that _bad,_ but because I think not having them would've been more interesting. This is informed largely by my reading of canon outside of TCW: I like the idea that the Jedi weren't prepared to lead a clone army. Hell, they weren't prepared to wage war _at all._ The point of Sheev's plan was that he handed the Jedi a noose to hang themselves by pushing them into a situation that would cause them to betray their ideals. The Jedi were meant to be _atrocious_ generals, at least for the most part. They wouldn't connect with clones as individuals, and get a lot of them killed unnecessarily. The idea that clones bonded closely with their clone commanders is a TCW addition, as is the idea that the Jedi were particularly good at leading the war. Not all clones _hated_ their generals. In fact, Aayla Secura was massively respected. That's why they overkill her in the Order 66 scene. It looks brutal, but they're trying to kill her as quickly as possible so she won't suffer for long. If the chip turns the clones into mindless drones, we lose that. With how TCW handled it, the chips were necessary because the Jedi were too heroic, and bonded too much with the clones. But personally I wish we'd gotten to see the failure of the Jedi, and the growing resentment by most of the clones.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the chips either, but I can see both sides of it. And either way we're talking about programming someone to follow orders, it's basically just a question of hardware vs software.
Their is still no justification for the Jedi being put in command of the Army, Nothing Palpatine did would justify it. The Jedi are a tiny elite martial religious order that have only been given mediatior/police duties before. If they were to be utilized in a war it would logically be as some kind of special forces branch of the army, which is what they ACTUALLY do 99% of the time. Their role as commanders is never justified, the Senate should have no reason to want them to be the Generals, the Senators should all be tring to promote their own cronies and political allies to these plum positions, and the Jedi order should want to remain reclusive and apolitical, infact they should be trying to remain as completly non-combatants and mediators for an eventual peace settlment, like some kind of diplomatic-corp. The Jedi being forced into a kind of special forces role later in the war as public pressure mounts would be belivable and a good scheme by Palpatine to put them in the line of fire. But generals on day 1 was just rediculus.
The fact that you still like star wars helps me appreciate your perspective more readily. I listened really hard to your previous video and walked away accepting your input but also really disappointed to do so. The fact that you like star wars, including clone wars, helps me accept your input. You also defended the inhibitor chips and focused on the political consequences, which helped me feel really validated lol
I have to disagree with your opinion on Order 66: In Legends, Order 66 is part of a list of publicly visible emergency protocols approved by the Senate, which included, among other things, Order 66, which states that if treason is proven, the Jedi concerned will be punished with force or death Violence must be neutralized on the orders of the Republican high command. There was also a comparable protocol (Order 67), which said the same thing for the Supreme Chancellor and could come into force through the Senate. The fact that such emergency protocols are being issued is by no means absurd; comparable things exist in reality, certainly in your home country too. And it's hard to argue that such a thing makes sense, given the fact that Dooku was once a Jedi and other Jedi changed sides over the course of the Clone Wars. There is therefore also a public interest in the Galactic Republic to take precautions against such cases of high treason on the part of the Jedi. In addition, Order 66 is legally legitimized in this way, which means that it was at least formally a legally correct process to eliminate the Jedi. Therefore I am against the inhibitor chips and for this version. And the clones become more interesting because they make the decision themselves whether they believe their general is a traitor or not. In the end they received an order from the high command that was certainly correct ;)
Not to mention in Legends, most Jedi were aloof and not interested in the clones, increasing/inspiring aggravation. Most Jedi weakened the clones fighting ability by pushing them into melee ranged fights. Clones were highly trained and had advanced communication, allowing them to communicated and enact advanced(compared to the rest of Star Wars) tactics. Emotionally there were a lot of validation for betrayal. The Jedi actively spoke against “politicians,” giving some evidence for possible treason.
@@Dayze2 It's a difference between the Clone Wars as written by, say, Jan Ostrander and Karen Traviss, vs. it written by Dave Filoni. The first two have multiple characters on all ends of the moral spectrum, while Filoni treats it with all the nuance of a superhero comic.
The movie provided enough ambiguity to allow that original interpretation of Order 66. But TCW utterly destroys it because it is no longer an order about any specific Jedi which might have simply issued to many units to each take out THEIR specific Jedi as if that one Jedi had been exposed as a traitor like Krell. Order 66 in TCW became on its face a complete decapitation attack which orders every clone to FOREVER after kill all Jedi (and former Jedi) onsight, everywhere without exception or a hint of due process. It is not possible to interprit it as anything other then a coup order.
@@kennethferland5579 As an added bonus, it actually applies to anyone with a lightsaber, and can be activated by anyone: Jocasta Nu uses it against the Inquisitors and Vader in one of the newer Marvel comics. It's an astonishingly stupid mechanic.
your criticism of characterization in this show (inconsistency, failure to develop, missed opertunity et al) are spot on. if you do a part 3 it would be nice to see you tackle the inconsistency of the shows message over all: is it about the important of individuality, the fight against tyranny, freedom versus dogma, the fall of darth vader etc. it all tends to come off as 'star wars does war film', 'star wars does detective story', 'star wars does overly simplistic morality tale' etc.
Along with his vague character development from Darth Maul, who should not be revived, he’s already a corpse. Also, it would have been fine if Roonan Jedi Master Halsey and a Nautolan Jedi Padawan Knox were the two Jedi he ever faced but left out the fight with Adi Gallia, but maybe fought Anakin or any other peer.
@@max7971 Do we really want to start talking about which Star Wars names are hard to take seriously? Captain Hindsight could've been a Star Wars name and would have fit right in. Maul Grevious Sidious Padme Plo Koon General Disarray...
I'd honestly be fine with a longer video. If anyone says it's too long, to quote the man Sheev himself. "If you don't find long-form videos palatable *breathe in* you don't have to keep watching." - Source: The Kenobi Series Harvested my Kidneys and Sold Them on eBay (PART ONE) Timestamp: 3:22
Just put that shit on in the background while grinding in a survival game. It's perfect. You're distracted enough to be able to keep your thoughts focused just enough to always keep listening, but not so distracted that you miss things.
I always hated the praise of, oh this show "fixes" the Prequels... Which I mean, no, it doesn't. I actually love the Prequels and believe you don't need any outside material to know whats going on, nor do you need this show to "fix" the films. It's similar to the falsehood of A New Hope being "saved" in the edit, because no, it wasn't. It went through the normal editing process literally every successful film goes through. To that end, every box office hit was, "saved" in the edit.
Couldn't agree more. The prequels don't need any of the so-called "fixing" people claim; they're flawed, yes, like any other media-but a lot of the things detractors dislike about them aren't even objective faults with the writing, rather creative choices that weren't to their taste. In other words, I've noticed many of the "criticisms" levied at the prequels aren't actual critiques, but entirely based on subjective preferences. There _are_ valid criticisms-like Shmi's death not being brought up again in AotC when it's so important to Anakin's arc-but those are so few and far between everything else prequel haters like to hurl at the movies. The prequels have more compelling storytelling than TCW (I won't go into detail here since it would prolong this already long-winded reply, but I have plenty of analytical musings written down elsewhere and around various comment sections). Filoniwars is basically a watered-down, kiddie version of the Clone Wars era, especially when you include the EU in the comparison. I like TCW (heck, I even like aspects of Rebels) for what it is (and see it as a standalone continuity not canon to the films/EU), but at no point have I thought it comes anywhere close to the films' and EU's nuances and maturity. Part of the reason I look at it that way is because I didn't grow up with Star Wars: I'm not nostalgia-blinded by any of it the way so many other fans seem to be.
@@AnimaVox_ Exactly. I personally consider The Clone Wars an alternate universe/timeline because of the MANY inconsistencies it causes to the films. What's funny is I did grow up with the OT and Prequels and am a huge fan, (luckily was a big fan of basically everything on the 3 big tv channels back then), but I have an uncanny ability to not let nostalgia blind me. (Unlike many so called, "critics") Again, I love the Prequels, just as much as the OT, which I saw first. The Prequels are flawed, but in the exact same way the OT is. It's just part of the charm.
As for the inhibitor chips I always thought it was more tragic that the clones would choose loyalty to the Republic over any personal feelings and in their moment of ultimate dedication doomed the very thing they thought they were saving. Making the clones unable to choose that outcome, be forced into it always seemed like a lazy way to deal with the moral culpability of the clones. Instead of good men making a tough choice you have biological robots. On the other hand stripping away the freedom and individuality of an entire army as the first step in founding an autocratic empire is kinda deliciously evil.
I completely agree with you. However I think it is more tragic for the freedom and individuality to be willfully surrendered by the clones rather than taken by force. The problem with the chips from a thematic standpoint is it gives the clones an out. An excuse for their actions, something else they could blame. "It is not my fault, the big bad chip made me do it." Meanwhile there was something more gripping about the troopers that legit believed in their orders. Of course there would be exceptions, but Sheev like so many pro chip members, overplays the exceptions. Just because one disobeys doesn't mean all or even most will. Otherwise going by the same logic, the Empire should not had made it even 20 years.
@@kingorange7739 I mean it makes sense that Palp wouldn't want to leave the key piece of his evil plan up to the fickle conscious of thousands of clones. It also gives him an absolutely loyal force to rely on during the transition from Republic to Empire which historically is when governments are most vulnerable. BUT I think you're right. It's a lazy out so we can both have these characters we are supposed to like and have them do Order 66 because nuance is bad.
Is it not more evil to manipulate what is essentially a slave population to kill the only group that might have one day when war had ceased altered their fates by their own choices using the flaws of the heroes?
Yes, someone who properly understands the reason why the chips are bad. It never had anything to do with the PHYSICAL plausability of the concept (Shev is hopelessly off base in defending this aspect of the chips and thus completly strawmans the chips critics). It's all about how it erases the moral weight of the situation. AND I think worst of all, it provides the writers a cheap (and repeatedly abused) means to just 'redeem' clones without doing any actual character growth. The ultimate deus-ex-machina of character growth if you will.
@hferland5579 That's an excellent point. I've considered such a thing vaguely but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Another thing it does is it removes the narrative tragedy. Narrative tragedy, especially traditional greek tragedies which the Prequels are, require the weight of the failings of the protagonists to be at fault for the fall. The Jedi are at fault for accepting the clones in the original, the clones are slaves of the Republic who will zealously gun down any who oppose it, imperial troops in all but name who would unwaveringly commit atrocity if it were ordered or for the benefit of the Republic that see the defensive tactics, preservation of life, & other such things as essentially weakness. They're closer to Mandalorians than Republic troops in terms of values. They were always willing to kill them, they were always the threat, tragic as they may be being essentially slaves they chose to stay that path & slay the Jedi in the end, as they always were going to. There's so much narrative weight lost by taking away the choices in so many directions. It doesn't just remove the clones as moral actors, it removes the faults of the Jedi that led to their tragic end.
He was just giving an example of a show, that might not hold up on a closer look. We dont know, what part he meant. It could be Freeze or it could be more likely the scene itself. I mean Batman just managed to break Freezes helmet with nothing more than hot soup, he just carries around in his belt without it being a hindrance to his movement.
Its still weird AF that a main character wasent mentioned ONCE in RotS. Season 7 of clone wars really dropped the ball by having her talking to Anakin just MOMENTS before the movie. At least with season 6 you could say "Well they haven't talked for months"
I assume your reffering to Ahsoka. Well as much as she makes the time period inconsistent she wasn't a thing when ROTS was made she didn't exist so of course she wouldn't be mentioned in the movie.
It always annoyed me how cartoonishly evil the separartists and especially Dooku was in CW. It seemed like in AOTC they had legitimate reasons to leave the republic, like the senate being corrupt and the republic being too controlling of trade and how slow the senate must have been with thousands of systems needing to agree on laws. I assumed they had legitimate political disagreements with the republic just like Dooku had with the Jedi. It would've been interesting if the separatists had less democratic governments and maybe certain religions that were discriminated against in the republic, as well as officials fed up with the slow moving bureaucracy in the senate. They could've reflected real life with the whole idea of America "exporting democracy" by overthrowing Middle Eastern governments. To be clear I'm not saying what authoritarian governments do in our world is good or justifiable, but the idea of a massive democratic superpower intervening in authoritarian regimes that want no business with them could be the foundation of a real political struggle that would cause the separatist movement. Or you know, they could all just be greedy evil corrupt moustache twirling villains who enslave native populations, engage in casual genocide, and at one point try to release the black plague on the galaxy (seriously), having no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I guess that works too.
The only part of the clone wars show that even touches on that is my personal favorite episode, “Heroes on Both Sides”. It does a good job of showing the dichotomy of the morally good politics of the Separatists against the evil actions of the military. I do wish the clone wars did touch on the in all honesty fascinating politics of the Clone Wars Itself more than like-once
I agree that there's no real strong ideology shown for the Separatists and their reasoning, it's disappointing that there's not more given to the "heroes on all sides" line. But I also kinda like the notion that the bulk of the Separatist systems are planets that have cultural/political/economic grievances with the Republic, while there's a cabal of leadership that's really motivated by trade, taxation, greed, personal gain etc. who manipulate/subvert the other less influential systems for a Mutual gain, but one where they're the bigger winners. That seems rather credible and just more interesting.
I agree that Dooku and the other separatist villains having no humanity or compassion is a little distracting. Or them having no true ideology other than Republic bad. But I do think the separatists mirror many modern day real life countries in which the people who live in them aren’t the problem, their leaders are, as seen in Heroes on Both Sides as someone else mentioned. Just look at countries like North Korea, Cuba, Belarus, Iran, even the U.S. to some degree. It’s also worth noting that the separatists are heavily inspired by the real life American Confederacy which was also comically evil from all angles, endorsing slavery and eradicating cultures just like in Star Wars. It can be frustrating when villains in a tv show commit atrocious crimes but…. That’s kinda the norm when talking about great wars and powers. Things like the Armenian and Cambodian genocides can happen with no sense to it and the Separatists feel authentic to me in that context.
I dont think the chips ruin anything, I just hate seeing Filoni refuse to tarnish his favourite characters. I also think that the clones obeying orders adds to the tragic weight of episode 3. If you make perfectly conditioned genetic soldiers, it makes sense to have contingency plans. If we saw other orders being executed in the series it would add precedent. The Krell arc is a good place for this. They also could've revealed historic mistrust between the kaminoans and the jedi. Maybe a clone with vital information is captured, and a contingency protocol to self-destruct is activated, causing the clone to kill himself immediately in a horrible fashion.
I honestly think that the chips make order 66 more tragic because the clones are being forced into becoming mindless drone made to kill and serve. They’re just as much victims of Palpatine as the Jedi.
"The old canon order 66 doesn't work because he would have had to pass a bill for it." Ah, shoot, you're right. Just like the bill he had to pass to get the army made in the first place. Or even the bill he had to pass to get the chips put in, right? So if you're saying the issue of *how* he got order 66 arranged is a problem without the chips but not with them, that's nonsense. If you're saying it's a logistical problem either way, then that's fair, and it's one that we have to accept that Palpatine overcame either way, in each version of the canon. I also don't think it's difficult to argue that it would be much harder to hide the presence of the chips than the presence of the order, but that's a longer argument.
8:55 Sheev you made a massive mistake regarding that sub-plot where clones disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. The clones who disobeyed weren't the standard clone troopers that the Kaminoan Prime Minister was showing and describing to Obi-Wan, they were *Clone Commandos* which were genetically different from standard CTs because they retained more independence than the regular clones (but not as much as the Null Clones and Arc Troopers) because they were independent special forces units meant to do toygh jobs behind enemy lines that normal clones weren't made to handle. Not to mention that you were a bit hypocritical saying that you're going to disregard all EU stuff regarding clone obedience but immediately use a piece of EU material that I hopefully believe you misremembered or misunderstood and not trying to make a bad faith argument along the lines of those that used Luuuke and Skippy the Jedi Droid as examples of how bad the entire EU was to justify Disney decanonizing it.
True....however his other points aout the chips still stands. I will like your comment because it is a good point, but I still agree with him on the inhibitor chips overall despite me agreeing with most of the video.
@@Jdudec367 I prefer if they weren't just chips, make it a whole unremovable part of their brains. Still the same result and same dilemmas, just no more cop outs on making hard choices such as whether a jedi can spare a clone like Ahsoka did with Rex.
Skippy the Jedi Droid was a joke side story they made for fun he's not a canon character. Anyone that uses Skippy to say the old EU was bad needs to be ignored because they're either being dishonest or ignorant enough that everything they say should be brought into question.
I had the same issues with Krell. He would've been a much better character if they made him a more extreme version of Nadar Veb from season 1. Nadar's issue was that he only had one episode to set up his downfall. Krell had four episodes and they could've set up that at one point he was a respected Jedi but over the war he lost sight of that and became a man obsessed with victory no matter the cost. In the show it's so obvious that he's evil with him sending his men into death traps for 4 episodes straight
Well yeah it was obvious krell was screwy after a bit bit that's where the tensions comes from! The clones trying to work around him and eventually prove him to be treasonous to the rest if the army.
Sheev, gotta level with you; you're forgetting *WHY* the chips are needed. From your perspective, yes, they were needed. But that perspective is with TCW's writing already in mind, with the Jedi and Clones being buddy pals already established. The original lore was specifically that many of the Clones were like Slick, who resented the Jedi for exactly the same nuanced reasons you usually keep mentioning, such as their disjointed emotional deadness, their hypocrisy, and their arrogance. Their lack of care, while claiming to be caregivers. The Clones and the Jedi were not friends. That was a Filoni retcon. So I am honestly unsure as to why you'd make the claim that the chips were necessary based off his writing. Yes, within HIS narrative they were needed, but that's because the fool retconned it to be necessary in the first place. It used to be a nuanced topic. Did the indentured servants/slave soldiers not have a right to gun down the Jedi, who claimed to be against slavery and pro peace but decided to fashion a human army that wasn't allowed to desert without punishment to fight their war for them, in order to be free? That was the original question. Now the narrative is: ''Poor Jedi. Poor Clones. They are objectively the good guys, and those poor Clones wouldn't never done this evil deed if the objective bad guys hadn't put objectively evil microchips of objective evilness in their heads because they're the objectively bad guys and therefore objectively evil which is why they committed such an objectively evil act.'' Personally, I, like yourself, prefer nuance over that. In summary, I view the microchip retcon of the Clones the same way I view the retcon of turning Dooku into a moustache twirling villain. It's the erasure of nuance and depth. The replacement of it with toned down, easy-to-digest side picking. There's no question about Dooku in TCW the way there was in AOTC and ROTS. He's the bad guy. And just the same way, there's no question involved with the Clones. They are the good guys who did a bad thing because bad people put a bad thing in their heads that takes their control away. Because this show panders to kids, and apparently to fans who don't have any more emotional maturity or worldliness than kids, which are the demographic that defend the microchips.
Just to ask, if im remembering this correctly, that in _The Rise of Darth Vader_ weren't those clones clone commandos? Because if they were, that would explain the seeming contradiction since clone commandos were bred to be much more independent than your average clone.
Exactly. Standard clones weren’t independent and were obedient to a fault, but commandos were bred specifically to be independent to fulfill their assigned duties.
Yes this was the reason the EU created the ARC and commandos, the writers understood that writing stories about regular clone troopers would create lore issues and limitations. They took the idea of Boba Fett being an unmodified clone and said let's create a type of clone that sits in the middle half way between Boba and regular trooper. That removed the limitations of their storytelling and avoided the Order 66 obedience issues. Filoni with TCW didn't have this foresight. The inhibitor chip is the bandaided result of making all clones as independent as they liked, with promotions and training being the difference between an ARC and troopers not genetics.
@@RoboticPope Pretty much, as I remember that Clone Commandos and ARC Troopers were directly bred not trained and promoted. Not to mention that, if I remember correctly, the clones at the end of that book were willing to swarm the rogue commandos in human wave tactics to get to them.
Can i complain about Maul's legs for a sec? Cuz it's been driving me crazy since i first saw it. Talzin uses broken droids to give Maul these monster legs which are so good in terms of design, they're a visual representantion of Mauls inhumanity, making him look more monster like. He also uses them to do that move were he grabs his oponent in the face with and chucks them around, a move that makes him look more intimidating and further cements what i just said. They're also a constant visual reminder that he lost his legs... to Obi Wan, which is what he's all about (they're also just cool). Anyway his legs get almost immediately replaced with robot legs so uninteresting you legitimately forget they're prosthetics... why? why did this happen? how did this happen? it's so endlessly frustrating.
Finally somebody else who noticed that the film clearly stated that Anakin and Grevious never met, but more importantly it's heavily implied that Obi-Wan and Grevious never met either. You even mention the exact points I always bring up, like why would Grevious say he was trained in Jedi arts by Dooku... When clearly in the Clone Wars, Kenobi would have already known that, then Kenobi looking surprised at the 4 arms, almost like he's seeing them for the first time, but the Clone Wars ignores all that. And then the Dooku and Anakin stuff, exactly! My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count. ...Oh, you mean from last week?
It’s honestly annoying how Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin were all together for an episode and instead of being interesting in any way it just plays out like a sit-com.
Like it is a genuinely funny episode but at the same time it just screams wasted potential. It just feels like an R/prequelmemes shitpost and it could’ve been so much more
I absolutely love the Clone Wars. This video, and its preceding one, caught my eye because I love hearing different perspectives. You've opened my eyes to a lot of the flaws I've been previously blind towards and it shed a lot of light on things is never really thought about critically due to my nostalgia. As a writer, you've helped me understand how to improve stories with minor changes. The rant about Umbara especially is what did it for me. Crazy how making him just a resentful Jedi instead of a Sith wannabe changes the entirety of the nuance and gives those episodes so much more depth. Bravo! Excellent videos! You've most definitely earned my subscription! I can't wait for your next critique!
Honestly, I think the problem with those accusations you mentioned at the end aren't really bad faith or an indicator of cognitive bias per se; rather, they're an indicator of the way that Faloni's writing encourages its audience to think. He alludes vaguely to deeper explanations, to get the fans thinking about what those explanations might be; and in so doing, encourages his audience to accept their headcanon as the intended explanation of events.
But if a person's headcanon is what's keeping the story from falling apart then they might be a little bit brainwashed Because having your audience fill in the gaps of your story via headcanon or third party media is lazy writing
Cut (the deserter) his kids were adopted. His wife was a single mom, her original husband died when they were young. Although, it should be noted, in lore, humans, togruta, and twielek are able to interbreed since we all share a common ancestor. Togrutas and twieleks were originally humans modified by the Rakatta as a slave race for harsher planets then what humans could inhabit comfortably
Yeah we can pretty much assume this. I didnt know sheev before these videos and a lot of the points he brings up are more than correct, but sometimes it just seems that his opinion is objectively flawed and can be dismantled by either common sence or more elaborate arguments. 2 examples can be made, the former being cut's kids and the second being that in legends there were 150 contingency orders, so having one being against the jedi was never taken into serious consideration; lets be reminded that order 65 was a contingency order for the military to dethrone the current reigning chancellor from office, so even if the jedi did suspect such an order, they would have brushed it off due to the complexity of application of all the other contingency orders.
Yeah but the Rakata (as awesome as they are) were pretty much COMPLETELY thrown out of the new canon. The only thing known about them is, A: they existed/exist, and B: they possibly gave humans the technology for hyperspace travel. That's it.
Order 66 is not "just another Order" or "Protocol" the Jedi shouldnt know about, its a Contingency Order! And the jedi were well aware of that! It doesnt open up a... can of worms or something. Because there were 150 similar Orders, even one for the clones to turn against the chancellor, which would require the approval of the Senate or the Republic Security Council. But Palpatine already had the entire senate under him, so he could execute those Contingency Orders. Furthermore, tose orders being a part of the entire republic military makes sure that everyone, even the non-cloned personnel like Fleet-Soldiers and Officers would be participating on Order 66!
It also makes them stand out less. Having a contingency for the Jedi betraying the Republic makes sense, having that among 150 other orders including one to take down the Supreme Chancellor makes it unassailable.
@@papapalps2415 If it's public knowledge Palpatine has the power to have the clones kill every Jedi if he feels like it why is every Jedi so blind-sighted by order 66, they all were pretty suspicious of Palpatine by the end of the war
@@rennythespaceguy7285 no it doesnt. Or were the germans idiots for Hitler abusing the emergency paragraphs from the constitution to stay in power the whole time?
10:20 Commando clones are different from the regular clone troopers in that the Kaminoans didn't apply the standard behavior correction to them due to Jango Fett and his Mandalorian military advisors advocating for soldiers that could handle more difficult missions.
I’m so glad you talked so much about the nightsisters and their magic shit. I’ve always hated them, what they can do and the implications on the world. And I never hear anyone bringing this up. Everyone else just seemed to be cool with it and it’s so maddening
Even if the Ashoka events happen in a different order… it would still be an example of her learning the same lesson twice in relatively quick succession…
Sometimes I wish TCW just fully committed to being an alternate universe instead of trying to fit into the movies and failing. This video really showcases how not only doesn't make sense these events leading into the movies. But their natural conclusion would have been extremely interesting by themselves. Edit: I remember the Night sisters being stupid but holy shit they were so much worse than I remember.
Dude the problem with your argument for the chip is ignoring the fact order 66 is just execute superior officer nothin more your kind of overcomplicating stuff and it doesn't help the independent clones you mentioned were trained independent plus thr clones were openly betrayed by the jedi when they heard the order in the eu
Exactly. He is either accidentally of purposely misrepresenting the context surrounding how Order 66 was done prior to the chips. I also find he grossly underplays the senate's mistrust they had for the Jedi. Of course the senate would have a safe guard order against the Jedi if they went rogue, especially since not only were Jedi going rogue during the war (Something the EU shows), but the leader of the entire Separatist movement was an ex Jedi.
@@kingorange7739there's a few issues of Republic devoted to the notion that a lot of the jedi not named anakin or obi-wan just aren't that good at commanding armies, not out of malice or spite or anything, just incompetence. one Jedi whose name escapes me right now is at a debriefing and he says something along the lines of "they're good men. i wish i served them better" which prompts a senator to question the competence of Jedi as generals. hell, quinlan vos' and commander faie's conflict is literally prompted by quinlan's inexperience as a general combined with faie's adherence to protocol.
Looking back on it I think your points against the Umbara ark are pretty strong. Krell just being evil diminishes the previous plot points of the entire ark. Thinking on it now, wouldn’t it have been much more interesting if Krell was a diehard loyal general of the Republic, and when the clones come to mutiny against him he escapes and tries to radio for help from the Republic? Imagine that as a final bit to the story: The clones who rebelled against Krell need to get him captured or killed before he can call in the rest of the army to slaughter them all, while simultaneously there is infighting among the clones over what to do. Some want to beg forgiveness and give up with the mutiny, others want Krell dead for his actions, and some want to tread a middle ground where they do not want Krell dead but also do not want him sending them to their deaths. Just my thoughts on the matter, thanks for the video!
@@johnstajduhar9617 Yes. Make the situation difficult, so that people can reasonable pick sides in the argument and have decent reasons for the side they pick.
One thing I'll say about the chip vs. no chip is that I think some folks underestimate the power of conditioning when it comes to soldiers and other people in the military. Where you are taught to follow orders and carry them out without question. Yeah, they're supposed to be lawful orders, but sometimes, in situations where it could be life or death, that judgement can seem extra muddy. Now take that and apply it to a group of genetically grown soldiers created for one purpose, then that muddiness becomes even messier. I do think you gave a good defense/points for the chips, but I still stand that the "simply following orders" can and does work in it's own right. I think the issue is that the 3D show creates the need for the chips to exist by giving the clones so much screentime. Not to say that is a bad thing, but if we go off the movies and EU where they aren't as characterized outside of specific moments, it requires more than just "following orders." Especially on a grander scale with how they humanize pretty much all the clones. Where as the EU humanized specific clones.
While I agree with your overall premise about the show and a lot of your points, but the defense of the inhibitor chips was a major misfire. And sorry, I'm not going to agree to disagree because I don't think your defenses are good on an analytical level and because while you're personal feelings may think they're good, personally feelings are more than the opposite. But I'll just focus on the arguments. 1) You can't really ignore the EU unless you just look at it in context of the Disney Canon. Because George Lucas approved the EU, it was canon at the time, TCW was part of the EU, and because George Lucas put it above the rest, it forced rewrites to the EU on many topics. If TCW was treated as S-Canon or N-Canon, only then could one ignore the EU. 2) The Rise of Darth Vader is an excellent argument for why the chips are a bad idea, narratively. You kill off the potential for good stories and the clones grappling with their actions because of it. 3) Worldbuilding issues. Just like with Disney's Canon, the issue of a small fraction but numerous number of Jedi survivors becomes that much more implausible. (So your argument for the chips is a strong argument against it given the wider canon.) The presence of the chip also creates far more failure points for the plan, given how many people on both sides study the clones. Not to mention what happens in the show itself. Then there's the problem of what happens afterwards when the clones realize they've been controlled, that creates a massive liability in your disgruntled army. Especially since TCW decided that the clones aren't specially obedient and think like normal people, even the average trooper. It also adds the Kaminoans as active participants into the conspiracy to wipe out the Jedi, making it so you've introduced a MASSIVE liability in the plan being discovered. 4) The clones in the EU have narrative reasons for being able to be unique. They were ARCs and Commandos, who were specially engineered to be far more independent. 5) Ignoring the line about being "totally obedient, obeying an order without question" or treating it as sales puffery is special pleading. It applies to the vast number of the army in the EU, and seemingly all of it in the PT. So yes, at best they're unnecessary to have a breakable chip rather than having them be expertly engineered from the ground up. So the "Palpatine wouldn't take the chance" argument is another argument *against* the chips. 6) The arguments aren't the exact same thing. I can see why you think so, but to me it seems to be because you aren't including the context above. Especially the average vs specialized troopers being different. (Also, remember that the chips don't just create total obedience. The show demonstrates that it's just a "kill Jedi" program.) 7) It makes Order 66 unlikely to happen? Mate, what? These were child soldiers genetically engineered to be completely obedient. You don't think soldiers in real life "just follow orders?" I'm sorry, but I cannot take this argument seriously. (And again, the average clone being a normal, well-adjusted person is a problem TCW created that they created the chips to solve.) Like, the EU (which I've already explained why it can't be ignored) showed how to tell the kind of story that TCW wanted to tell without failing at it. And in the EU, Order 66 was only one of 150 Emergency Contingency Orders that every clone memorized from the beginning. Which the Jedi did know about, since it was about if the Jedi went to the Dark Side and betrayed the Republic (like, say, Dooly). And it also included what to happen if the Senate overthrew the Supreme Chancellor. Or the Supreme Chancellor overthrew the Senate. Palpatine hid his plan in plain sight so Order 66 didn't seem out of place among 149 similar orders, like the rest of his plans. Rather than creating a bigger conspiracy. 8) The Contingency Orders wouldn't need a Senate bill, they're military protocol. You think military protocol gets decided by the main government of a nation IRL? This claim is introducing a hurdle that would never exist. 9) A chip with that level of control over its host would be easier to find than what's shown. It would have to be some bigger thing that expands throughout the brain to control so much of a clone's thoughts. It absolutely would have been found before. "Embedded into the genetic tissue" is a gobbledygook phrase, and since we're implying critical thinking here, that doesn't fly. And again, so much more unreliable than having a brain built from the ground up for the average trooper to obey without question. (Sarcasm.) Because not like a CIS scientist would ever pick apart a clone to figure out how it would work. (More sarcasm.) And Ahsoka using the Force to perform precise neurosurgery is awful. 10) They get easier to find. Only a special confluence of events would fry a chip. None of this is in the story, and is more special pleading given you won't take blatant exposition in AotC at face value. Look, you like the chips. That's fine. Like what you like. But some twist yourself in knots trying to defend it and try to also say it makes sense and is the best option with a straight face. While I think most of your criticisms of this show are valid, this defense is a massive misfire.
Right on. The chips, no matter which way you cut it, simply don't make sense. The leaps in logic people make to try to justify this superfluous retcon are bizarre.
Expanding on point 9, in the Republic Commando novels, a CIS scientist tries to create a virus to kill clones specifically (ends up being all humans). I can imagine that a CIS scientist would find out about the chips which would effectively control the entire Republic army. This means that someone has to know about inhibitor chips and contingencies eventually leaking to everyone in the Republic. One could argue that it would have to be hushed up privately by palpatine where he sends a private group to get rid of the scientists and then later execute that team. However, all this means that both "inhibitor chips" or "genetic obedience" is still going to be a risk either way (as seen many clones either discover theirs anyway) so it is a moot point to begin with. He also acts like brainwashing doesnt exist or at least goes with the black and white options and doesn't seem to take into account real life history/scenarios. Case and point, palpatine rising to power and the correlation with Hitler.
Really? I enjoyed the first video but I flatly disagree with your stance on the chips, I hate them. I always found it more compelling that despite fighting alongside the jedi they'd murder them in cold blood because palpy declared them trators. And yes, I know, I didnt put much effort into explaining my dislike of the chips as the others, partly because I'm bad at writing, partly because others already did, partly because I never actually engaged with the now legends material, I just didnt like the chips.
The discussion of inhibitor chips and how they fit in to Order 66 got me thinking... Since I haven't watched the show and probably never will, I have to go off of what I see in the movies. When Cody and the other clones get the hologram figure giving telling them to execute Order 66, it isn't Palpatine; it's Sidious. They all call him "My Lord", same as the Neimoidians in Phantom Menace; not "your excellancy" or "chancellor" like people do with Palpatine. So the idea that Order 66 had to be signed off on by the Senate falls under question, since it seems the clones were interfacing directly with Sidious, which removes the Senate from the equation; it seems that the clones were aware of their fealty to Sidious well before the Jedi tried to capture him. If that's the case, inhibitor chips could just as easily be written out. One could easily explain it as the clones having their morality genetically written out, that they follow orders regardless of how a normal person would react. This theory holds up when you watch only the movies, as the clones don't get put in a moral dilemma that they have to solve themselves. Everything they do can be chalked up to following orders from higher-ups. Removing the chips then removes defective clones, which removes the (seemingly) increasing numbers of Jedi who survived and were operating through the final years of the Empire (Obi-Wan and Yoda seem in agreement that there are only two possible people who can destroy Vader in ESB, Luke and Leia). For those who liked the show, that's fine. I'm only pointing out something that stuck out to me as I was listening to this video. In my opinion, inhibitor chips were an unnecessary addition that needlessly added a lot of complications, which in turn generated a lot of contradictions, which could have been avoided by sticking to what the Kaminoans said in AOTC...genetically modified to follow orders explicitly. Doesn't take much of a jump to read behavioral engineering. The clones could act like the robots in 'I, Robot', where any life they save is strictly a calculation. And that 'calculation' is only done if it falls within their mission parameters.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, in _The Rise of Dark Vader,_ weren't the clones who refused to obey clone commandos? If they were, it would make sense since they're bred to be more independent thinking than normal clones.
@@Lobsterwithinternet I never read that one, but it would make sense. But again, if we go with the idea above, that also doesn't mean commandos need anything more than advanced training. Really, if morality is the only thing removed, and they follow orders implicitly, does a commando really 'need' more free thinking? Removing those two things leaves them all the freedom in the world to adjust their personal mission parameters as needed, as long as the initial mission mandate was vague enough (Go to the place, rescue the person, rendezvous back at base). Edit: Or even tell the clone they have mission freedom to operate as needed. Allow them to make those calculations on their own using their unique skills.
I’m sorry but everything you just wrote is nullified if you watched the clone wars. The clones are put in moral situations and after several seasons of getting to know the clones the idea that they all would unquestionably obey order 66 is impossible to believe
I guess what I'm ultimately arguing for is that this show shouldn't have existed, at least not as it was done. The Senate signed off on a clone army, ostensibly without much debate over the morality of mass casualties, because the clones were expendable and quickly replaceable. Essentially, free-thinking droids made of flesh and bone. If they are 'just clones', it's easier to watch them die en-masse. If they have feelings and personalities and personal morality, people would start criticizing the war a lot more than is shown in the movies.
@@rhysnichols8608 Fair enough. But the movies established one thing, and now the cartoon is jumping through hoops trying to have its cake and eat it too
Yup. The series is often inconsistent, focuses on things that could be skipped and skips things that should be focused on further, often fails to characterize (or in grievous' case actively murders any characterization) characters that are not the main set of clones/jedi has more holes in its plot than the wall behind a stormtrooper's target and fluctuates the power of its force users (or magicians) randomly to each other. I still do not think this makes it a bad show but it is a flawed show. It is still fun as heck and as you say all this criticism comes from a place of love and care and not actively trying to slander it. We star wars fans not only feast on what we get, but also what the material we've got implies could happen or would have happened, making our personal headcanons much larger than the canon itself. I think your 5h long critique (from both parts) is more than fair and speaks volumes of how much you care about the show that we are actively hunting plot holes and misshaps and shedding light onto them. Well done.
Concerning the Chip and especially the Dark Lord Argument here: The Clones disobeying Order 66 here werent regular Troopers, they were RCs. And RCs just as ARCs were always more free-thinkers than the others! Furthermore, they have big loyalty to their own Squad of Four, meanf if they had to disobey Order 66 they just needed all four of them to agree, instead of an entire Platoon or even a Company. Regular Troopers operate in much larger numbers, meaning even if SOME of them were ethically against Order 66 they would still rather execute it instead of turning against like 15 to 30 of their brothers. Honestly, you still didnt convince me that the Chip is a better solution. I am actually confused that THIS out of everything is the one thing you are fine with. It feels like a supervillain-plot by Dr. Drakken or something and doesnt work beyond the execution of Order 66! The clones should know what they've done afterwards and somehow justify it with themselves! Otherwise they would know they were controlled, and THAT might cause an even bigger clone-revolt! Another big reason against the chip is, that the GAR not only consisted of clones! There were plenty of Non-Cloned officers. What the hell would they be thinking if the clones suddenly turned on the Jedi?! The entire Officer Corps might fall apart then because they'd feel like they were left in the dark about the order. And last but not least: Order 66 only works if the entire republic would somehow agree with that! The reputation of the Jedi must have been mostly negative at this point already, and this goes for the civilians just as for the army. TCW just did a shit job at setting this breaking point up! otherwise, the chip wouldnt have been nessecary.
Like the whole idea of Order 66 is flawed, and like you said. The whole Republic Army and Navy and everything in it would fall apart and Palps would've had an even bigger problem and a rebellion that is triggered prematurely.
I remember always thinking that the characters remembered the events that happened on Mortis and was always baffled by people trying to tell me that they didn't.
As someone who really enjoyed the Clone Wars growing up, it's kind of depressing to see how the show does hold up in hindsight. I was hesitant to agree, but a lot of the talking points that I didn't consider were explained very well, and I think the inclusion of quotes from the show (like the characters referencing the events of Mortis) were clear and deliberate enough to support the points. I was in the same boat with watching the show; the first few seasons I saw every episode for during the Cartoon Network run, but after a while I couldn't keep up with it and didn't have streaming to watch it all. I still have not seen most of the Savage Opress episodes, so to hear about all the potential ideas of where his character could have gone but didn't is...frankly disappointing. Whole-heartedly agree on the villains being weak. 2003 Grievous was awesome to see, emphasizing the CIS' focus on attrition and disposable droids to reduce morale and overwhelm the Jedi. Dooku's "Fear, Surprise, and Intimidation" quote was one of my favorite lines, and seeing how Grievous executed that mantra was always great to see...but the new Clone Wars never really showed that focus of the CIS. Also believed Dooku was too mustache-twirling in new Clone Wars; he egged Anakin on and mocked him in the Prequels, but it always seemed more deliberate and sophisticated than the remarks of the show. And the technology/Nightsisters stuff...most of those episodes were ones that I missed, and seeing that rundown had me literally twitching. The writers literally put in basically everything possible to end the Clone Wars prematurely and never cared to proofread. That seems like an obscene way to break the Rule of Two if any Sith figured out how to do that...heck, imagine if Dooku teamed up with Talzin and Ventress to kill Palpatine with voodoo magic and run the Republic themselves in the power vacuum.
When you talk about the lack of nuance during the Umbara arc discussion pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on the Bad Batch, the writers are afraid of actually telli g good stories. I didn't pick it up watching this TCW show as a kid but I am constantly complaining about the writing decisions in BB for basically the same reasons. We could have gotten so much better stories in both shows it's actually kinda sad. I still like and appreciate TCW.
I am against the Inhibitor chips and hear me out why. The idea that Palpatine would leave something like the clones following order 66 in my opinion is ENTIRELY in character with Palpatine. Its in character because at the end of the day Palpatine is extremely arrogant and prone to making lapses in judgment in both canon and Legends. I mean to say Palpatines plans literally hang on dumb luck to an extent. For example what if Anakin did listen to Mace Windu and Anakin didnt betray the jedi? Palpatine's plans would have ended right then and there. What if Palpatine would have simply killed luke rather than torturing him with force lightning? Vader wouldnt have been able to betray him(something that also speaks volumes to his arrogance as he literally thought it impossible that Vader would have turned against him leading to his death). Palpatine yet again shows his arrogance by not mobilizing his entire military force and allowing the plans to be leaked for the super death star in Episode 6. The Mandalorian proves that imperial remnants remained as seen by Moff Gideon. Why not assemble the entire army to destroy the rebellion once and for all. Palpatine said he assembled the best troops but even still, that was pretty arrogant to assume the rebels could not win when they have already beaten the odds but a few years prior on Yavin. I mention these examples among countless others to show that for as smart Palpatine is, he still had immense hubris which ultimately costs him victories or at the very least puts him in extremely dangerous situations where his plans could just as easily fail as they may succeed. The lack of inhibitor chips in my opinion embodies this perfectly. For all of Palpatine's intelligence his own ego and arrogance present metaphorical and literal chinks in his otherwise impenetrable armor. Not sure if you will see this comment but this is just my take on things.
The Nightsisters from pre-TCW material are cool because they represent a Force user tradition that developed more or less independently of the usual Jedi/Sith conflict that Star Wars focuses on. They're a great way to explore how Jedi (or Sith) characters relate to the Force by introducing a third, alien perspective to compare and contrast with. Filoni retooled them into actual potions-and-sorcery witches, by extension introducing magical supernatural elements to the Star Wars universe other than the Force (or arguably hyperspace if you want to call that sci-fi conceit a form of magic), which really dilutes the focus on the Force and has catastrophic implications for the rest of the worldbuilding. Filoni's interpretation of the witches (and things like the world between worlds) are fundamentally not Star Wars because they mean altering the most basic rules of the setting in a way that makes all the drama over midichlorians look inconsequential. This isn't to say that there's no merit to exploring ideas that add additional fantastical elements to Star Wars - but they don't fit with the way the universe is presented in the OT or PT, and so their place is on the sidelines as spinoff what-if stories.
If Filoni actually asked Lucas about how the Force is actually supposed to work (or more likely *listened* to him), he'd have been able to write them into the lore as literal blood-sucking magic vampires. Force sensitivity *does* have a biological component, always has since ANH. Hell, Lucas actually wrote the full explanation into the script for TPM(iirc, might have been AOTC) but cut most of it because it was long winded and people weren't receptive to what we ended up getting anyway. It isn't a stretch to imagine that getting a transfusion from a Force sensitive (midichlorian rich) individual would make the recipient artificially greater in Force ability. The obvious downside is that you're screwing with the natural "symbiosis" of life and the Cosmic Force, so you'd presumably start getting deathly ill without regular feedings. This is absolutely a different path than light or dark, and is already half-supported by Plagueis' story in ROTS. It wouldn't support most of the absolute horseshit they ended up doing, but stuff like necromancy is already part of the canon if you think about the implications of what Plagueis actually accomplished.
Well technically, the new Nightsisters are supposed to be students of the dark side in a way that separates from the Sith. They use it in a way that does not consume them like most would.
I strongly believe the chips are a terrible idea for the long-term, they remove responsibility from the clones for a literal genocide for one. And fundamentally exist because feloni went to far in humanizing the clones, and he needed to as a result force them to do it, rather then have them do it of their own volition (because it would make them evil all of a sudden). It's actually similar to how Anakin in the show is a completely different person he is in the movies, just without those few and far between moments of darkness Anakin did get in the show. It also ruins the Clones service in the empire in the context of legends, and in canon feloni literally just made the empire entirely phase out the clones from the empire because in Palpatines view they would be less obedient long-term then conscripted conventional soldiers (extremely stupid in my view). I think what you are kinda ignoring here is that the Clones were raised from birth to be soldiers and follow orders, it's all they know. And that means they don't understand morals to well, and only have 3 years in the middle of a war at that, to even attempt to learn about morals free from the constraints of the Kaminoans. In Legends it is made pretty clear that a good portion of clones hated their Jedi commanders, either due to incompetence, or the Jedi just being dicks overall. There is a reason why many people who casually do amoral things usually lack a guiding hand in childhood to teach them why bad things are bad, and before the chips the clones were no different, and more than that they were raised to shoot things without question.
Echo originally not joining the Bad Batch is not true. There have been unfinished TCW episodes featuring Bad Batch on Kashyyyk with Echo among them, albeit with a slightly different design.
One thing I always found ridiculous about the prequel timeline was the fact that the clone wars takes place over only three years. The idea that entire planets could be conquered in that time, never mind whole star systems, is completely absurd. I realize that galactic standard years might be longer than an earth year, but three is still far too short to resolve a conflict on a galactic scale.
I thought it was originally like 7 years minimum and yeah... I refuse to believe everything is that rushed. You're telling me an INTERGALACTIC WAR is resolved faster than the American civil war? I fucking doubt it.
It's because George Lucas isn't a very good writer and felt like he needed to wrap up literally everything in a neat little bow at the end of the Prequels because he doesn't understand that we don't need to see literally everything in the OT set up beforehand. There's some time between the PT and OT, and I think a good chunk of people can come to the conclusion that some of the stuff we see in the OT happened during those years. In my opinion, the Clone Wars should have been a series of wars taking place over decades where an outside invading force made up of clones causes men to sign up or be drafted, thus giving a good reason for someone to believe in a strong militaristic Empire in case something like this happens again. It's also really contrived. I mean, really? Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers share an origin? This is a galaxy of quintillions of beings (365 trillion die in the Yuuzhan Vong war alone) and yet the same handful of like 25 people keep meeting each other or are very nearly related? Come on. You can have a lot of other stuff be the same (have Darth Sidious be behind the whole thing. Maybe he plants some evidence that the Jedi are behind it instead of just an unrelated assassination attempt for some reason) Then I might be more emotionally invested because young men would be fighting and dying on screen instead of just two factions made entirely if disposable things made in factories.
Hyper drive is basically instant, and 3 years isn’t that crazy at all. WW2 happened in 6 and they didn’t have speeders or space ships or millions of soldiers lmao
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741that whole comment was cringe, like most people you think you know better when you don’t even have an understanding of what you’re criticizing except is ridiculously obvious here. And, quick question, if George can’t write how did he write the OT? Don’t immediately spew any of the myths about him not making the OT when everyone who worked on it admitted he was the auteur of the whole thing
@@oldylad nah he's right, George has a horrible sense of scaling in both time and size. Are we to believe only a few million clones can take over hundreads of other planets, against billions, later trillions of droids? rofl Also he meant to wrap up the entire series after TCW, which is another reason people assume why the timeline is so crunche in this show
Bringing back Darth Maul was just such a silly decision even in concept. Even if there was a completely rationale explanation for his survival, it's not like he was a super deep character with a wide connection to many characters. He had, like, a singular line of dialogue and did nothing but fight and stand there menacingly. He was a complete non character who existed just to be a video game style boss. Rocking design, but that easily could have just been given to another member of his species.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69I think there needs to actually be a character concept before there can be a wasted character. Maul literally only had a character design and absolutely nothing else distinguishing him.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Well he wasn't the main antagonist, he was a toadie, and literally anyone from his race could be given the same characters design. It was not worth what ever ridiculous contrived explanation was necessary to explain the survival of a dude that was cut in half.
@@Jotari Well that's the issue but we know even from Grievous let alone Vader that full body prosthetics are a thing. I wished they showed it or even just mentioned that he mind tricked a worker into giving him medical attention or a ship or something. Hell that would've been the perfect chance to say he had Nightsister magic that kept him alive until he found a body. I don't agree with Sheev treating Vader's return as a bad precedent when the EU brought back Palpatine, Boba Fett, Grievous, and they were even edging audiences about a Darth Maul revival constantly (Force Unleashed being a great example of that). I think that's why Lucas didn't want other creators reviving Maul, because he had his own plans for him. They also constantly brought back their own original characters like Thrawn or Krayt.
13:41 Except that they were known about as well as a list of 150 orders including the infamous Order 65 that would allow the deposition of the Chancellor and more mundane things like Order 4 which dictated what would happen if the Supreme Chancellor went missing or was incapacitated. 14:02 Not if you're the Supreme Chancellor with emergency powers you wouldn't. Not to mention they were already programmed into the Clones before Palpatine was given emergency powers and they were brought in right before the first battle of Geonosis, so I don't think the Senate was going to really look a gift horse in the mouth. 14:22 And why would that be a problem when there's also orders that would allow them to do the same thing to the Chancellor with Order 5? “ In the event of the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) being declared unfit to issue orders, as defined in Section 6 (ii), the chief of defense staff shall assume GAR command and form a strategic cell of senior officers (see page 1173, para 4) until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified. ” - Republic Commando: True Colors, 2007 Not to mention as well that they’ve got a war to deal with and don't have the luxury of denying a ready-made army. 14:30 Because they really don't have anyone with the battle experience to lead an army in a full-scale war since there hasn't been one since the formation of the Republic according to Sio Bibble in TPM. 14:37 Again, the Jedi do not have the numbers or the ability to fight an entire war by themselves. Even Mace Windu admits this in AotC. 15:20 Gotta remember that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord behind the scenes and that he was quite a popular senator even before becoming the Chancellor. So most wouldn't think he would do something like that and just chalk it up with the rest of the orders. And even if he tried it, a random politician wouldn't be a match for 3-4 members of the Jedi Council stroking into his office and arresting him so the Jedi wouldn't be that concerned about him going rogue. 15:50 Sure but even if it was a one-in-a-million chance that the chip would go off early, that's over the entire clone army which on the conservative side would be at least 1.5-2 million clones, meaning it was guaranteed to have at least 2 failures in the entire army with more likely. Meanwhile, the only clones that were able to resist Order 66, as you pointed out in _The Rise of Darth Vader_ were clone commandos who were bred specifically to be much more independent thinking and have more freewill than your standard clone who we don't see refuse to follow Order 66 and even kill their brothers if they refuse to obey. 51:00 I'd probably pin it on George not having the character pinned down and changing his mind up to production. I mean we know from the team behind the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon that that was the reason why General Grevious was different there than in RotS.
To bring up a point about Gennedy Star Wars about Grievous, you did miss the part where while Grievous did ultimately capture Palpatine, Mace Windu crushed his respiratory organs which gave him his signature breathing in Episode 3. Why is that important? Because it heavily implies that's why Grievous wasn't the powerhouse he was in Episode 3(and the creators ensured that was the case with Lucas at the time even agreeing to it) and why Obi-Wan ultimately defeated him(Though it was still a hard won fight). It doesn't explain away all of Grievous' issues in Episode 3 but it explains why he constantly ran away or fought at an advantage until he was forced and still nearly had Obi-Wan dead to rights if it wasn't for a lucky blaster. It's a far and away better than what happened to him in TCW and it's honestly the reason I prefer Gennedy Clone Wars over TCW entirely.
@@diegodunn-humphrey512Yeah, but he most likely folded because that's how Lucas tends to be. Besides, it's not like TCW makes anymore sense in Movie Canon if you really look at it.
@@diegodunn-humphrey512That is because he didn't have his character down yet and just handed Bendy’s team a few concept pictures and a general description of Grievous. Then later after the first season was already out, George had finalized the character into a mustache-twirling villain and had them change it for the second season.
Yeah agreed. With Episode 3 at least originally there was an explanation that he was weaken prior to the events of the movie and him choking constantly was a recent thing. Which explains why he is so weak compared to how Grievous was in Genndy Clone Wars. TCW went overboard with Grievous being incompetent and making it so that he always coughed which retconned Gennedy Clone Wars.
@@LobsterwithinternetI remember explaining this to friends that love TCW 2003, but don’t care for Star Wars as a whole. The look on their faces when I said “yeah they got great concept art and the phrase Jedi hunter/Jedi killer”, they did all this work, then George comes back and says “actually he is a coward who runs away”
I just assumed Cut's kids were affected by his DNA in part. The clones DNA makes them age double the speed of a normal person, and we don't know how fast Twi'leks age (although it is likely that it's the same speed as humans). That being said, it still should have been placed later in the war minimum, because at 3 years in the kids could in theory be 6 which appears to be the age they are, but that's thrown out given it's supposed to be the first year of the war. So, thanks Dave for that. Or George
Though the EU had a lot of worse takes on his character. Like him being a xenophobic human-supremacist, even though the movies never even hinted at that in any way.
@@luzie3317I admit to a certain unfamiliarity with the source material but I understand that is almost solely the interpretation of his character put forward through the RotS novelization right? There are a number of other stories (see Plagueis and the Dooku character books) that present different views of his characters. Somewhat more nuanced views.
If I had a nickel for every show that Sheev has talked about that had body changing technology that is introduced once and never talked about or used again, I'd have two nickels. Which is not a lot, but it is weird it happened twice.
Response to 14:21. I like the EU interpretation more, but that’s not what i’m here to interject. Order 66 is part of the contingency orders in the EU which were disregarding. However, as far as i’m aware, Cannon and legends aren’t in conflict about the issue, so by starwars standard it’s still cannon until new cannon says otherwise. The contingency orders was a set of orders all clones were to know, and most everyone knew about. the genious of the contingency orders was it was another display of Palpatine’s Manipulations. A set of orders for every contingency. One of the orders is even the inverse of Order 66 Where the clones would know to forcibly remove The current Chanceler from office. And an additional order to cause them to organize against the senate. Great way of showing Palpatine’s manipulation ability, because He once again puts it in the hands of others to be able to stop him, but as always he keeps your attention elsewhere, and pressure in other places so you can’t remove him. As for why I prefer the old way, As you said, both effectively complete the same goal, But one has more risk, and it even does. Yet, I like the psychological implications and pain of the EU more. The clones are loyal to the Republic, not the Jedi, and they’ve been given an order from their high commander, to act against their comrades. Will you be the loyal soldier you should be, to the nation that gives you your whole purpose and point to your existence? Will you side maybe with your friend, or the commander who’s gotten you through thick and thin? Maybe you’ll leave the republic. I dislike the chips for the removal of the agency, and the intimate writing potential. There is an infinite amount of horror that can be done by the chips. Imagine a book, written solely form Rex’s point of view, when he’s given the order. his body reacts his limbs doing what they aren’t suppose to. But no mater the clone the experience is the same. Under the EU, Rex never would’ve attacked Ashoka, she gets away clean, and a possible rogue contingent of the 501st know exists. But pull back to the 312th with Aleya Secura. They were only ever sent to outerrim hell holes, like felucia, and because of Secera’s boldness, being willing to operate and throw herself and them into this places, they HATED her guts. They despised her, which is why in the movie they have such a violent and vitriolic scene when the order is given. This also, contrasts very nicely, from BF2 where the 501st detachment only survives due to her, and thought she deserved a gentle end. Commander Neyo was a sociopathic clone who felt nothing for the men under his command or the jedi, Him just sliding back, and blasting ahis commander as easy as a droid is so coldly cruel. Commander Bakara was a hard ass, mean, and ruthless clone commander, I would’ve loved for when the Galatic marines to be given order 66 they decided to make a right of proving, where the commander fried to best Ka Adi Mindi to death with their bare hands, showing the grueling intensity of their clone commander. Now all that said, Logistically, the chips make more sense, and i do agree with. I just think I and most people liked the nuance and grey of the old system. Commander Cody being the best example in the EU. He and Obiwan were battle buddies, but they had a very professional and neutral relationship, with cody being very by the books. He didn’t want to blast Obi wan, but he has his orders and by military doctrine he needs to follow them.
Alright guys, I've seen plenty of arguments disagreeing with my take on the chips, which is about what I expected, so I've done a stream where I addressed as many of them as I can. It can be found here: czcams.com/users/liveLJIKxkQAeuk?si=lGxsHtgafMHeb7FI
If I didn't address your points for why the chips don't work, I do apologize, but this is as much as I'm willing to do about this subject. Following this, I will not be arguing about the chips any further; we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think the settings work for both, the EU establishing that the Jedi were horrible commanders since they weren't military generals and just space monks being the equivalent of the rich noble family being captains and officers during ww1 forcing their own men to walk to their deaths makes the choice of order 66 more believable as most the clones had no love for their Jedi commanders say for a select few. For clone wars they made the clones have a close relationship with all their Jedi commanders, I still prefer the choice of order 66 over the chip but both work
@@cbbartman1360 Well, no, the Jedi weren't that bad out of Traviss' books.
Honestly for me the debate was settled when you raised the point that Palpatine wouldn’t hedge everything on the off chance that the clones wouldn’t follow through on his command. And I’ve yet to hear any argument that makes more sense. This isn’t just some ploy Palpatine is doing to thin the Jedi numbers. This is the big move, the move that reveals his hand and intentions and leads to him seizing control and creating the empire. This is the pivotal move that every action he took so far has lead to. Decades of groundwork and deception to allow this to happen. And you expect me to believe he’d risk it all, all that effort and sacrifice on the off chance not every single clone trooper is all on board for massacring the Jedi who they fight with side by side?
“Well you see the clones didn’t like the Jedi.” See, I don’t like a lot of people, that doesn’t mean I will start blasting them when someone gives me the all clear to kill em.
“The Jedi were bad commanders, hated by the clones who considered them aristocrats.” Every single Jedi? Each and everyone? First of all that’s clearly not the case in this series. And even then, all it takes for that plan to backfire is one or two good, competent, well liked Jedi generals. At best your disgruntled clones kill the majority of the Jedi but you still have a few Jedi left who have loyal clones to fight for them. At worst the majority of the clones don’t follow through because of the few good, well liked Jedi and almost none of the Jedi are killed and now Palpatine will have played his hand and the game is up.
Another reason why I like the chip more, is that keeping the chip a secret requires only a handful of people to keep their mouth shut. While not having it be the chip means millions of clones knew about the order, what it meant, and all MILLIONS of them never spilled a thing for years. Yeah I don’t buy that for one second.
@@William2669 You have a very, very poor grasp of what military training and a literal lifetime of conditioning and brainwashing will do to people. Soldiers can and have done far, far worse, with far less justification and pretense than 'I am genetically conditioned soldier raised and born in a military environment and was told by The Great Leader TM to kill the bad men', and to unironically think it's something that's strange to contemplate or hard to believe is more an indicator of your own sheltered naivety then it is anything else.
There's also just the simple fact that your premise is bad to begin with; because it's TCW primarily that's responsible for making clones so just more human like and, relatively, innocent and carefree. The chips were a solution to a problem they created.
Also, lul what about keeping what secret? Order 66, per the old line of reasoning, wasn't at all a secret.
@@William2669 You finding the idea that genetically conditioned, pre-disposed-to-obedience soldiers that have been raised and brainwashed over the course of a literal subjective lifetime to be undyingly loyal doing awful things in service of their government hard to believe is deeply, deeply amusing. The entirety of human history is filled to bursting with militaries and soldiers doing far, far worse things than killing their commanding officers with far, far less justification than a direct order from The Great Leader, a man you are literally programmed to be obedient to and make your heart go doki-doki. This is more an indication of your own sheltered naivety than it is an actual argument.
Ultimately, the chips were a solution to an artifical problem TCW created by making the clones so much more human, and relatively innocent and carefree than they were formerly depicted.
Also, lul what? Order 66, per the old reasoning, wasn't a secret thing at all.
Jar Jar canonically laying pipe is peak Star Wars, you just don’t get it
The words you used had me on my metaphorical knees. My literal knees are weak from mom's spaghetti
Oh god he’s a construction worker now too? Filoni, let him rest!
@@minkeymouce bruh....slick...😎
Ooooh, maxibig da pipe! Wellen, dat smells stinkowif.
Based
Remember, kids. The planned story arcs about Ventress' sacrifice, Boba vs Cad Bane and Maul escaping Sidious couldn't get animated, but we instead got 4 episodes of the Martez sisters.
Yikes
Don't forget there was also going to be an episode where clone troopers meet Yuuzhan Vong scouts.
@@vetarlittorf1807
Yeah, but honestly, I'm glad that episode didn't get made. It would have ruined the importance of the NJO series in the lore, which is about our heroes facing a threat never faced before in the history of the Galaxy.
@@TetsuShima Why? The Yuuzhan Vong have been scouting the galaxy since the Mandalorian Wars.
@@vetarlittorf1807
But there was no direct contact between the Vong and the inhabitants of the galaxy. They only spied hidden and, every time someone noticed their existence, they completely ran back to their galaxy. In the TCW episode there would have been direct contact between the Vong and the Republic, which would surely have also created plot holes and contradictions with respect to what was told in NJO
@TheAbsolutistDetective I feel like an arc like that would have been more along the lines of grey alien encounters and whatnot. Lucas wanted to Vong to not be immune to the force and remove the sadomasochitic elements because well obviously. I feel like the story would have worked better as a nod to the NJO novels
That Cartoon Network commercial teasing the Umbara arc brought back strong memories. After the arc concluded, I remember thinking, even as a kid, that Pong Krell might've been a little bit worse than "a substitute teacher who isn't as cool as your regular one."
I remember that one sub in middle school who had us shoot and kill our friends and classmates. So not cool.
yeah that's funny
Isn't the opposite more true? That your normal teacher who has to put up with everyone's s**t all year is the strict one and the substitute DGAF and lets you get away with whatever because he doesn't have to deal with the long-term consequences of it, thereby being the "cool" one by child logic?
@@samwellcheck562 Honestly, I've seen it both ways. What you describe is probably more common, but I definitely remember a few times where a substitute, whether out of a desire to not be the typical laidback sub that you described or simply because he had a stick up his butt, was *way* more strict than the normal teacher.
@@swagromancer
My spine was never the same.
My boy Grievous has been done wrong for so long.
It's a slippery slope, besides the 3d engine couldn't do what the 2d animation could do. Theoretically it's possible to make the 3d Grievous to move that fast, but I have yet to see it.
I blame Revenge of the Sith for turning Grevious into a joke from Clone Wars onwards.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudiosThey had an inbuilt excuse from the cartoon itself. 2008 doesn’t.
Man I wish he was treated better he is my favorite character and had so much potential but nah he gets to be a mustache twirling coward and just straight up fucking stupid
As I understand lucas himself thought the 2003 grievous was too op and nerfed him in episode 3. The clone wars does not have an excuse though
"Theyre both madly in love with Obi Wan-"
That abrupt cut off had me in stitches
is he wrong tho...
Well he is known as the “negotiator” take that how you will
Holding a revenge grudge for like 30 years that supposedly was powerful enough for Maul to channel so much of the dark side he resisted death from what should have been lethal wounds is basically the Sith equivalent to a marriage proposal lol.
@@wafflingmean4477 Got to admit, bringing Maul back was well worth it because of the comments. Lol.
@wafflingmean4477 that's the real reason why he killed satine
I never noticed it as a kid but it is really funny to me now that Grievous, on screen, literally only wins 3 fights he's in, and 2 of them were against a little girl that he still failed to like actually win against. The only guy he actually manages to kill is the goofy fish man in that one episode.
Greivous is a terrible character on this show, for sure. It’s pathetic
And even THEN, that one win against the fish Padawan was due to him catching him off-guard with a secret blaster shot to the stomach with one of his split arms rather than through a proper lightsaber duel, as the fish Padawan seemed to be winning the lightsaber clash against him until that very moment.
Let me repeat, the cyborg specifically designed to overwhelm and hunt jedi was losing a lightsaber clash against a fucking Padawan before he whipped out his gun.
It's like Filoni can never give Grevious a proper win without make him resort to cheap tactics.
He’s basically the star wars version of Warf at this point. Theoretically a fierce warrior but in actuality just a plot device to make other people look badass.
@@jakewalters3951 Exactly. He was kinda cool/menacing in the 2003 Clone Wars and Revenge Of The Sith.
@@chasehedges6775 exactly. I know that given the limitations of the format it was made for it can come off like playing battlefront on speed but i do think that on the whole 03 CW just did a better job of bridging and supplementing the movies than CaloniWars
Palpatine was using NordVPN for his holograms
Lol!
I was just thinking that
💀
would have been a god-tier ad transition
A surprise to be sure, but a good one.
I truly despise the "Kids Show" argument, as if children somehow can't appreciate world-building and character consistency. I remember, as a child, loving it when TV shows referenced older episodes and used them as a basis to tell a new story; even if I didn't know what continuity was, I could still appreciate it.
If anything, I think consistent, mindful storytelling in children’s media is even more necessary than in adult media - if we uncritically accept garbage in our formative years, we most certainly will in our adulthood.
I unironically think that cartoons that respect and empower children’s intelligence and maturity is one small thing among many that can prevent societies from falling into dogmatism and authoritarianism.
I’m sure the Galactic Empire’s state-sponsored children’s media is absolutely inane. 🙃
Exactly. It's why we loved shit like Teen Titans and Avatar: The Last Airbender back in the day. Kids understand what good writing is.
As a kid i remember going nuts over the snail from adventure time. i’d see him and go HOLY FUCK!! THAT BITCH IS EVIL!!!
Compare Avatar the kids cartoon against the "mature" live action adaptation. The cartoon is a thousand times more mature and nuanced. Only the coat of paint is more juvenile.
@@robynsun_love I think this is a very good take. I don't personally know anyone who grew up on trash media that ended up accepting it later in life, but I do know many people who just kinda tolerate anything, and they almost always grew up on mediocrity. All the nitpickers, all the people who think about the media they're consuming, they all grew up with nuanced shows and films and books.
Kids products don't have to be immature.
Imagine if we had an episode where Dooku after finding out Maul lives went out of his way to try and kill or capture Maul and it was because Maul killed Qui-gon. Imagine if him being Qui-gon's master affected anything. Imagine he ever did anything.
This baffles me. So we have Qui-gon's master and the guy who killed him in the same show and... nothing. That could have written itself but I guess giving Dooku any character or motivation beyond "mWahahaha, I'm evil!" was not allowed.
So I found this comment yesterday while scrolling on my phone and Wanted to add to it but life and my phone prevented me from doing as I had hoped So taking Your comment in mind:
*maul and Dooku circle eachother with Lightsabers drawn*
"So The Old man Send the Blind Fool to Tie UP his Loose ends" - Maul says as he eyes the Count warily
"Even were it not My Masters Will, I would have sought you out to the ends of the Galaxy To Put You Down Beast" Dooku Sneers
"What's the Matter Jedi?" Maul Taunts "Afraid I'd Grown in Power enough to Threaten your Place by the Old Prunes Side?"
*Dooku's Eyes Flasing orange With the Power of the Dark Side* -"You KILLED MY SON"
@@wisdommanari6701 Four months late but man, I got chills reading that.
Palpatine uses a VPN to stop people decloaking his holograms.
“I'm Darth Sidious and I use NordVPN for all my holographic transmission and sith research needs.”
56:30 One detail I love, which is very subtle, is in Attack of the Clones, when Coleman Terbor tries to take Dooku by surprise. When Coleman is about to strike Dooku, he's killed by Jango. Dooku turns and grins to Jango, turns and looks towards where Coleman fell and grimaces, then looks back to the battle mournfully. This all happens over like 3 seconds.
It also demonstrated how weak and complacent the Jedi became that a random bounty hunter could take out a Jedi pretty easily.
Pretty much the entirety of the Coliseum fight demonstrates how out of touch and in over their heads the Jedi Order became.
@@LobsterwithinternetThat random Bounty Hunter was the best at his time and had matched Obi Wan while unprepared.I mean,send Jango back a thosand years and put him against your avarage Jedi Councill member and just like the dinasour man they would be gutted.Besides that,i aggre with you.
@@LobsterwithinternetCalling Jango Fett "a random bounty hunter" is ludicrous. Jango was THE bounty hunter of his era much like Boba would be, he was by far the most skilled Mandalorian and only lost to Mace Windu, who is one of the strongest "normal" Force users (not counting Anakin/Palpatine).
I think we can all agree that the Clone Wars should’ve lasted more than 3 years.
mhm (:
No.
@@Wolfgulfuri disagree
I feel Warhammer 40k suffers a bit from this. The Horus Heresy, one of the most defining moments in history for that universe, only lasted about 10 years. Sure, writers of novels have managed to create some of the series' best stories from that short date range, I still feel it could have benefited from a longer timeframe. Maybe add in more details about how humanity was weakened from decades of civil war, and how other races once on the verge of extinction could see a resurgence or even band together.
Fun Grievous facts according to current canon:
1. He was once a Kaleesh warlord whose culture and planet were desecrated by a war that the Republic and Jedi are directly responsible for supporting the other invading side. If that wasnt reason enough to hate the Jedi, his partner was killed horrifically in front of him during this conflict; literally being ripped limb from limb.
2. His descent into being a cyborg started out being intentional: small modifications here and there to help him fight. However, an accident that Dooku secretly orchestrated called for the complete reconstruction.
3. Grievous was present in the Battle of Geonosis. Nobody reported seeing him because nobody lived to report seeing him.
4. The Battle of Hypori is still canon, and is the first time he became known to the Republic.
The point of why I bring these up is to demonstrate how badly CG Clone Wars fumbled the ball in eatablishing this backstory, as this all comes from canon comics and visual dictionaries.
Grievous she has been treated like a slasher villain a seemingly unstoppable monster the Jason or leather face.
Something that even hardend Jedi are daunted to face.
Like for example the Jadi could have a flee on-site order for only one under the rank of master, and even then you can't engage him in one on one.
Build his up as the moster of the CSI.
And then show us he is far more terrifying.
That should have been Grievous.
You evidently are not aware of the canonical continuity - that's not Grievous' defined backstory.
@@AshanBhatoa It is according to the Canon section on Wookiepedia 🤷♂️
@@thekaiser3815 that third point has more environmental storytelling than this entire show.
@@magma_fire_bagwan nah the third is just a blatant retcon since Grievious was obviously not created yet.
Jango being on the side of the bad guys on Geonosis should have been the biggest red flag about the clones 😂
He's a bounty hunter, it makes sense he'd be on both. Sifo Dyas's foresaw a conflict which would end the Jedi so he wants an army made from the best specimen, Jango Fett. Count Dooku is a politician who wants the best body guard available so he goes to Jango.
@@CRYSTAL_CUSTOMS They never establish that so it doesn't matter
@@nohbuddy1 what don't they establish?
@@nohbuddy1 I looked in my comment again. If we're only using the films and TCW as a refence the only thing they don't mention which I brought up is Dyas' vision but still, he wants an army so he goes to the strongest speciman
Tbf, there are multiple situations irl where democratic countries find themselves accepting help even from terrorists; people make similar statements as to why the US had aided the Mujahadeen in the past, I view the Republic's collaboration with Kamino and the clones to be similar.
I’m not 100% convinced the Jedi would be able to reach the conclusion that the Clones are specifically designed to kill Jedi with just the information they got in Season 6, but I would expect them to look into the circumstances a little more than not at all.
Those chairs must be pretty comfy, since all they seem to do is sit on their asses and agree the wisest course of action is inaction.
The Jedi are so incompetent and pathetic in this show. Is it any wonder why Palpatine wins in the end.
Master Vrook in KOTOR was one of them. Inaction to the point of evil apathy as far as I'm concerned. He invokes intense loathing in me.
"They're both madly in love with Obi-Wan" perfect absolutely perfect.
😂😂😂😂
who could blame them
Speaking on order sixty-six more specifically, while the EU went into more detail about it, I think the fact that it's the sixty-sixth order does enough by itself to establish that there was a huge list of emergency orders for all sorts of situations specifically to disguise the one that Palpatine was planning on using the whole time, which is why it didn't get caught out.
I was about to comment the same
But the Jedi wouldn’t have a list of these orders when they’re GENERALS ? And even if said list stops at 65, how do you keep a secret with billions of individuals knowing about such an order ?
@@lindos602 The Jedi had a list with all of the orders (of which there were many more then 66) and the list included orders for establishing martial law, bombarding a planet, arresting senators, arresting the chancellor and arresting jedis. All of them were established as contingency plans. Order 66, where a clone unit was ordered to attempt to arrest their jedi commander could have and realistically should have raised suspicions, but when there were also other such extreme orders in the list, it is more reasonable that they did not take action to remove what to normal politicians must have looked like a reasonable list of contingency plans (although I will say there's some really worringsome authoritarian stuff in those orders, if anything the Senate would have been more opposed to it, but here we're talking about the Jedi).
On another note, however, there is something that is never made clear. Order 66 must be given individually to each unit. Logically, Palpatine would have issued the order to each theater command, who would then relay the order to local commanders. However, the movies contradict this, as Palpatine is shown directly messaging junior officers, and even a simple pilot, which makes the whole thing ridiculous: are we to believe the Republic doesn't have a chain of command other than the jedi?
@@fede98k54 Ok, but you got an important nuance here : arrest, not kill.
That still means the Clones have to know the Order 66 as presented in the list is not accurate.
And more importantly, it’s never shown in the movies (that one’s on Lucas)
@@lindos602 I will also note that there is an advantage in having the orders be known, as in that way Palpaltine legalizes how he dealt with the Jedi. It also, in theory, makes the logistical issuing of the order easier, as Palpaine wouldn't have to individually call up every single clone unit to whisper "execute order 66" - he could just give the order as the very top of the chain of command and let the GAR deal with it. Or at least, it should give that advantage, were it not for RotS directly contradicting that, which as I said in the previous comment makes no sense.
Speaking of Dooku's character, I loved his Legends origins. In the old continuity, Dooku was forever changed when as a child his best friend Lorian Nodd falsely accused him of stealing the Sith Holocron from his master. That caused Dooku to greatly distrust the Jedi Order, beginning to see them as a bunch of fakes and hypocrites, which ironically caused Dooku to end up immersed in the dark side. I wish TCW had given more depth to the character
I loved the EU novel that was from, it really made me appreciate The Count.
Honestly, the idea of Dooku actually seeing first hand how ineffective the jedi order was at protecting the people of the galaxy seems like a much stronger reasoning but that's just me
There is one thing bothers me a little bit about that book. In Qui-Gon and Dooku part, it's establishing that Dooku and Qui-Gon has no real friendship and their relationship is professional. And in Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon part of the book, Qui-Gon says that he doesn't know what Dooku is doing nowadays and he barely even talks with him ever since he knighted. So if they were that cold to each other, why did Dooku so traumatized after Qui-Gon's death and saw Qui-Gon's padawan Obi-Wan as a grandson? It looks confusing. But despite that issue, the overall book was fantastic.
The EU book Dark Rendezvous characterizes Dooku the best in my humble opinion. Yoda is also his more fun-loving, cheeky ep5 self in it. Sadly it varies from author to author how he is depicted, and that also somewhat stands for Ventress and Grievous, Sheevtalks was right about that one.
@@warhawk9566 Did he claim that that was the ONLY reason he turned to the dark side? Why are mispresenting his argument/take in bad faith?
I say the implant chips are there entirely to fix a problem that the show introduced itself.
They "humanized" the clones a bit too much, forgetting that they've been genetically modified to make them more obedient.
They didn't humanize the clones too much, but instead exalted the jedi too much. This is something the EU did better
"I'm nothing more than a 12 year old child sent to war and only survived this long out of sheer luck while my closest friends died since my dill-weed generals couldn't command their way out of a paper bag. Higher-ups say kill 'em? About time."
Makes the story immediately more engaging than "I love my jedi 😊 **chip activates** I hate my jedi 😡"
@@LowResCatExplosionHonestly it’s a lot deeper than “I love them and now I hate them.”
They fought alongside their generals for years, Jedi who… mostly, took care of them but they’re in a war which will cause clones to die regardless. But the chips force the clones to kill their Jedi regardless of what they want, and several clones live to regret it for the rest of their lives. Pretty much murdering their friends/war-brothers that have been developed throughout the entire show.
@@akillerpro7582 And that's only a problem because of the way the show characterized the Jedi-Clone relationship in a way completely divorced from all previous depictions of them. There are several exceptions, but it's always mentioned that Anakin or Etain Tur-Mukan treat Clones differently from the rest of the Jedi. They don't all have to be (and they weren't all, unless you ask Karen Traviss) harsh, but most of them did not treat the Clones as normal soldiers.
You got it wrong.The problem the chips fix is the mind reading ability of the force users,which is from at least RotJ.
While that power was used by Vader,Obi-wan's first force power use on screen shows mind stuff is also used by Jedi.,so the chips would be required to catch them by surprise.
@@naamadossantossilva4736 Mind reading wasn't a factor. Just one of a long list of orders the Clones were conditioned to follow without question. The Clones would have no reason to think of the orders before carrying them out.
You can't cut from Clones like Rex and Cody having strong friendships with their Jedi generals to "And then, they killed their masters with no issues!" The retcon of the chips was necessary _because_ of TCW. The narrative was leading to the Clones having _more_ loyalty towards their Jedi generals, not less. If Filoni was thinking ahead, he would've started at least as early as season 3 to start making this relationship break down, showing more and more Jedi who consider clones expendable. He should've shown even our main characters like Obi-Wan ordering hundreds of clones to their deaths, explaining why Cody would have no compunction ordering a walker to blast him out of existence. There are smart ways you can do this without depicting Obi-Wan or the other Jedi as straight-up evil, especially if you depict these moments as difficult decisions where the Jedi have to choose between saving civilians/targets and their own troops. You can even make this a point of contention between Anakin and the Jedi Council as well as developing Anakin's dislike of the Republic Admiralty and officers which we see boil over in Empire Strikes Back into actually strangling officers for being useless.
Makes total sense. Anakin caring too much about the clones and the rest of the Jedi disregarding them making him hate the Jedi even more. But filoni would never do that
@@StrykeSZN I almost wonder what show we would've gotten if George hired a writer from Star Trek's Next Generation or Deep Space Nine instead of Filoni. This show needed people experienced with writing stories about militaries and soldiers (of sorts), and characters that develop over an episodic series.
I think the chips were necessary just bc Palpatine trusting that LITERALLY EVERY SOLDIER would turn against the jedi would have been way riskier than literal mind control chips.
Also bc I like the Clones very much.
AND the angsty potential of them realising what they did is so interesting (e.g. Cody in Bad Batch)
Overall I can admit CW has its issues but I dont really care bc it has never ruined the fun for me.
And I think it was 1000% a very worthwhile show to watch and rewatch.
Honestly this ties back into something that I think has been done poorly in the Disney era in general - by the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of the Empire, the average galactic citizen's opinion of the Jedi should be quite low, and should take a very long time to recover.
Palpatine's destruction of the Jedi obviously hinges on physically killing them off with Order 66, but perhaps even more importantly it requires that the institution of the Jedi Order be so undermined that they leave no legacy in the public consciousness either. What's the point in offing the Jedi if everyone starts asking for the galactic peacekeeper heroes to come back and starts asking uncomfortable questions about why they *all* had to go?
The fall of the Jedi Order happens in this nicely woven simultaneous decline in its physical power as the Jedi are scattered and attrited by the fighting of the Clone Wars, in its moral authority as the Jedi are brought into conflict between their own ideals and the needs of the state and the war they're caught up in, in its own ideology as complacency and arrogance undermine the Order from within, and even in its supernatural power as the growing influence of the dark side and the general malaise of the wartime environment is described as clouding their vision of the Force. This all comes to a head with Order 66, naturally, as the Jedi are unceremoniously killed and nobody aside from a small handful of characters that wised up to the manipulation and sabotage of the Order mourns its loss.
The Sith victory over the Jedi *requires* that the Jedi must be conceptually trashed as well, if nothing else than for the purposes of maintaining their own authority and stamping out attempts to revive the Jedi. We as the audience might think the Jedi are cool and heroic and great and want to see them succeed, but Palps needs the galaxy to think that the Jedi were bad enough that their destruction was, at a minimum, a necessary evil, and preferably it should be perceived as deserved justice. The OT depicts the Jedi and Force users in general as marginalized, ridiculed, and considered impotent despite leading armies not 20 years ago. As far as the general public knows, the Jedi were a bunch of entitled goody-twoshoes cultist elites whose tricks and attempted coup ended up being no match for the conventional apparatus of the Grand Army of the Republic and the wisdom of a regular person - Chancellor Palpatine.
@SnazzyStudz and anakin seeing how they are slaves like him would go out of his way to make sure they all live
The fact that the Jedi find out that the clone army was created by Dooku and don't put two and two together to realize that the entire war was just created by Dooku and his master as a scheme to weaken the republic and take over the galaxy is hilarious to me. Keeping in mind that Dooku flat out told Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones, that Sidious was the man pulling the strings behind everything.
I used to think the same. But seeing how much political ignorance exists today, including dogmatic denial of proven lies and committed crimes, it became way more believable to me. Sometimes people *want* to believe something so bad, that they flat out ignore facts until they hit them personally in their faces. Usually it's too late then.
And the Jedi are horribly detached from everything. Their council operated from a literal ivory tower, they were dogmatic to a toxic degree and free thinkers were never permitted on the council at all - see Qui-Gon or Dooku. It is totally believable that they were too ignorant to see the truth.
Yes, and the Jedi could do nothing about this. They know not of how much of a compromise there is, nevermind the exact influence of Dooku.
Ob-wan probably didn't trust Dooku's account about a Sith lord puppet master because Dooku was the one who was holding him captive in the first place! Maybe it's just me but if I was in Ben's shoes I would've feel very trustworthy of the guy in front me, while locked in a laser cage. Lol
They knew that is partially true but it was still ordered by someone else so they couldn`t be sure of just how much that affected the clones that were already ordered, so they really couldn`t figure that out. To be fair Dooku could have been bluffing about how much he knew in AOTC especially with Sidious.
Dooku: ''The entire Senate is under control of a Sith Lord.''
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
Dooku: *Turns out to be Darth Tyranus meaning he definitely knows that as fact*
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
Darth Tyranus: *Turns out to have made the entire Clone Army*
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
The Clones: *Randomly turn on their Jedi masters while claiming to have strictly followed ''orders''*
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
The Clones: *Literally have microchips in their heads*
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
Fives: ''Dude, the entire Clone Army has microchips in their heads that make us turn on our Jedi Masters, and we're going to literally kill you without hesitation once they're triggered because that's what they were designed to do by the Sith Lords who created us.''
The Jedi: ''lol, no.''
Palpatine: *Triggers Order 66*
The Clones: *Ruthlessly gun down all the Jedi*
The Jedi: ''lo-'' *Surprised Pikachu face*
The Clone Wars in summary.
whenever maul is mentioned I cant stop thinking about him in Solo when he was threating/trying to impress Hans Love interest over a hologram by turning on his light saber in dark and presumably empty room.
aswell as the unfortunate implications it has a y'know revealing his sword to her.
Soooo true. Solo was already mediocre enough
This video really explains what is honestly my biggest problem with Star Wars as a franchise. Despite taking place in a galaxy far far away a long time ago, there’s a shocking deficiency of imagination and creativity.
Most characters, storylines, and concepts are just the most simplistic, straightforward, and most predictable versions that they could possibly be. Very rarely, does the franchise explore itself for opportunities to flesh them out with actual nuance or depth.
I understand Star Wars began as a simple hero’s tale adventure with the original trilogy, and if it stayed like that then I wouldn’t have this issue. However, Star Wars also wants to evolve beyond that initial intention to grow up and be taken seriously, but it mostly does that in theory or concept and very rarely in practice or execution.
That's why I like Knights of the Old Republic 2, it does take the usual framework and takes it to a whole other direction.
This is what seperates legends from disney canon. The only real attempt I've seen of disney making something more unique was with TLJ, but that movie executed by one of the worst directors of the modern age, resulting in them just sticking to formula and dave "I feel constrained in a universe with rules" filoni.
The expanded universe did what it did, and it expanded the galaxy that George created. Disney doesn't.
On a very similar note it always bothered me that no one capitalized on the star part of Star Wars, despite it being set in space you'd be lucky if you get something as basic as a space station or asteroid field despite both being in the ot.
We never see:
Gas giants
Comets
Black holes
Neutron stars
Regular stars (in any meaningful way, not only are they never an actual factor, SWs doesn't even bother to have stars that aren't clones of our sun)
Nebulas
Pulsars
Probably more stuff i can't think of atm
The only real issue I have this post is the implication that the OT isn't something to be taken seriously or is 'grown up' (whatever that actually means, exactly), as well as the simple fact that you aren't making any attempt to delineate between the modern Disney era media and the before era.
@@silverprimus321boi9BASED RESPONSE 😎
Dooku being a bond villain is ironic
I see what you did the because Sir Christopher Lee did play a character in one of the bond movies.
@@baki484 James Bond is actually based on Sir Lee
I cannot believe we were robbed of seeing that season 7 model of Grievous do anything.
No, we need more Maul, Ahsoka and Rex instead. And those two sisters I don't remember what they are called.
Well this aged well
@@codey9Grievous was barely in Tales of Empire
@InfernoBlade64 IKR He was in for like 3 minutes I don't understand why people are acting like it completely redeemed his character
I always hated the fact Anakin had a padawan in the war. The teenage brat who massacred an entire Tusken village officialy getting an apprentice was ridiculous af. It's pretty obvious that even Filoni knew how stupid that artistic decision was, since he characterized Anakin from the first episode with the mature and disciplined personality that he displays in Episode III after serving in the army for years, which makes no sense at all. The most logical choice here would have been to establish Ahsoka as Plo Koon's padawan and create her bond with Anakin through many shared missions
You mean Securas apprentice, so we have a nice pair of booty
It's a huge part of prequels to see what can be gotten away with, and it indelibly ruins them.
Exceptions like BCS and Andor are magical.
@@pderham26 how did it ruin them?
@@Jdudec367 How does looking to stretch what's retroactively reasonable ruin content?
I agree that it's odd Anakin got an apprentice, but idk why you're listing his slaughter of the tuskens as a reason why he shouldn't have. The Jedi never knew that happened. The only people Anakin ever told about it were Padme and Palpatine.
That opening clip made me realise that despite watching this show multiple times, there are episodes that I have no memory of whatsoever.
This show is 50% bad, 20% fine, 20% good and 10% actual greatness. I think people really oversell the good and great parts, combined with nostalgia. There’s a reason there are multiple “essential episode” lists that are only fractions and slivers of the show. Not a single C-3P0 or R2-D2 episode ever makes those lists.
@@ForsakenKrios following one of those lists is legitimately the only way I'd recommend the show to anyone. It has some pretty high highs, and some unbelievably low lows.
I don't 100% ascribe to the "kids show" argument, but it really does fit the bill in some cases, even for other shows. People put Samurai Jack on a pedestal too and it had some pretty bad episodes even before the final season.
@@ForsakenKrios I would have hated to have to wait 1 week for a CW episode, only for it to be god awful. The beginning of Season 4 is atrocious. It's like Umbara was made to be a big apology 😂
Kind of sad seeing how many content creators nowadays have to dedicate the start of videos such as these to explaining that critiquing something that you find enjoyable does not mean an attack on your person or a push to stop making you enjoy the subject of the video.
The worst thing about Dave Filoni is that he never cared about respecting the continuity established by other authors. When TCW premiered, Legends had solved a large part of its lore contradictions through the holocron of continuity, but everything was ruined when Filoni imposed his own version of the Clone Wars, which had 1,000,000 massive contradictions with what was seen in the 2003 multimedia project (the existence of Rex and Ahsoka, the characterization of Anakin, the social structure of Mandalore, the inhibitor chip, the death of Even Piell, the Nightsisters, etc.) and tried to force it into the old continuity, no matter how totally impossible that would be. Because of that, sourcebook authors like Pablo Hidalgo and Jason Fry tried to justify all this nonsense with statements like "All of the missions Anakin participated in as a Padawan happened in the first few weeks of the war instead of over two years" or "Satine's Mandalorian government covered just a portion of the planet."
Don't forget about George lucas
@@diegodunn-humphrey512 Yeah I think they were both to blame
Dave "I don't like being put in a writing corner in a well established universe" Filoni.
@ggt47 I thank God everyday that he had little control over avatar the last air bender
@@poppag8281it's not a coincidence that the best regarded star wars movie is also the same one that had the least amount of involvement from lucas
Ok let’s talk about the microchips and break this down piece by piece:
First of all, it’s weirdly confusing to establish we’re not using the EU, and then immediately defer to the books. The way this segment was worded, I’m genuinely confused. So since you default to using the books, I’m also going to default to using the books.
There’s something very, very important you forgot to mention about the incident in Dark Lord: those were Clone Commandos. Clone Commandos and ARCs (so this includes Jangotat as well by the way) were specifically bred with an increased capacity for independent thinking in order to operate behind enemy lines. As in, different from the regular clones. Using this as an example for why the Clone Army was unreliable is disingenuous at best, as the commandos were fundamentally different on a genetic level. The rest of the Clones on Murkhana went along with the order, it was just that one team of clones specifically bred to think independently that took things into their own hands.
As for the point about Order 66 somehow being less suspicious. Clone Protocol 66, in the EU, was part of a set of 150 contingency orders that the Jedi did know about. However, here’s the exact wording of the order:
"In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established."
So like, the Clones have an order to get rid of rogue commanders. Please tell me why the Jedi would be suspicious of an order to get rid of them in the event they go rogue.
Also, suppose Palpatine does propose this, he would’ve proposed it along with the other 150. You know what Order 65 was? Let me show you:
"In the event of either (i) a majority in the Senate declaring the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) to be unfit to issue orders, or (ii) the Security Council declaring him or her to be unfit to issue orders, and an authenticated order being received by the GAR, commanders shall be authorized to detain the Supreme Commander, with lethal force if necessary, and command of the GAR shall fall to the acting Chancellor until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified as outlined in Section 6 (iv)."
So not only did he word the order in a way that looks like a last resort failsafe that would never possibly be . He also put it right under an order to depose him.
In other words, he did the same thing he always did with the Jedi, hid it right in plain sight.
Please tell me why this is riskier than the chips, which you yourself admit almost led to his plan being uncovered.
This. I think the problem was the shows depiction of the Clones, they were too normal and individually independent, it would have been unbelievable to think they would gun down a Jedi without a second thought like they did in the film. The chip had to be a way for them switch to kill mode.
these are all great points! good job! makes me want to reread some legends stuff
Exactly. He lost me on this point. In no world does, normal human thinking clone being instantly flipped to kill and no thought, make sense.
Also, if we just use Movies and real life analogy: "Jedi are peacekeepers, not soldiers". Not peacekeepers as expeditionary force in our world but diplomats and Red Cross with weapons. The armies are usually their own cast that doesn't like outsiders. So now we have an Army of Breeded Soldiers who don't know anything about live outside the war and pacifist mystic monks turned generals. It is inviting nothing but disaster. In the end after years of war there would a lot of resentment and hate.
The point you raised about Talzins crystal ball also applies to Talzin making Savage strong and force sensitive, like imagine if Palpatine somehow learnt to harness that type of magic, which is not out of the realm of possibility. As by this shows logic anyone can learn Nightsister magic. Someone as archaicly powerful as Sidious who is basically the embodiment of the dark side should definitely be able to tap into it given the proper instruction. So imagine this, Sidious learns how to embue someone with immense strength, durability and grant them force abilities, he could convertly abduct chosen species and turn each of them into the equivalent to Savage Oppress, he wouldn't even need to bother with something like the Inquisitorious were this the case. I mean shit he could build this army in secret over the course of the Clone war and when the time is right unleash them alongside Order 66, the Jedi orders fate would be pretty much sealed at that point. Fuck its all so broken.
That same crystal ball also appears in Jedi fallen order as Merrin uses it, by teaching herself. An experienced force user like papa palps could easily become unstoppable if he had that ball, even if merrin only used a small shard of it.
I am pretty sure Order 66 was a contingency order planned by the Kaminoans prior to the war, the Senate probably had no knowledge of it. Besides, the explanation would be simple; order 66 was an emergency order in case of Jedi going rogue or something along those lines. Several Jedi had become corrupted before and during the war, and public opinion was not favourable towards the order during the war, so most people would take little issue with it.
The senate did know of them. However the safeguard against rogue jedi was the official explaination, no chips needed.
That's like saying Robots should be programmed with a "Kill all Humans" order because 'some humans have gone rogue' in the past. Order 66 is an explicity decapitation attack on a political body of the Republic because it senteces every member of that body to death simply for being members, it's existence could never be justified as anything other then a planned coup. The Kaminoins would have known themselves to be complicity in that coup.
The RotS did not make it clear if Order 66 was just a 'your commanding officer is a traitor and must the arrested or killed' that Palpatine mass copy pasted to every clone unit in the field that had a Jedi with them. The movie allowed for an interpretation that Palpatine was utilizing a standard order which might concivably have been known to everyone. TCW destroys this possibility, lights it on fire and then pisses on it, after what TCW dose it can only make order 66 the most closely guarded secret of Sidious.
@@kingorange7739
Agreed because that makes sense, it’s a safety order, a contingency.
order 66 was well kknown by everyone actually its a militery protocoll. Just google order 65 its the order to kill the canclor
@@azimuddin1890 One that was balanced out by contingencies for Palpatine and the Senate as well.
I refuse to believe that Maul could strong arm the Hutts when even the Empire couldn't get them to fall in line. And we all know how far the Empire (especially in Legends) is willing to go to make people fall in line and obey their laws
I mean, the Empire could make them fall in line, though...? They had a working arrangement in the old canon, at least. There's certainly no question the Empire could arbitrarily sweep them aside if it came to that.
the empire never cared to make the hutts fall in line cause they were little fish and the hutts never really caused them any serious problems. It's less that the hutts weren't takeable and more that it wasn't worth the time or effort and most of the time they weren't a problem anyway. Maul made it a goal to attack the hutts and he went straight for the Hutts themselves, the only people the hutts gave a damn about
@@warhawk9566 The Empire left formal Hutt space under Hutt control because the Empire was being paid tribute in raw materials that they wanted, the same reason they allowed the Centrality and Corporate sector to retain nominal self governance.
Exactly the real problem is how little defenses they seem to have although that is a nitpick no matter how good there defenses are they wouldn’t be able to stop a Sith Lord but still they really only have a few bounty hunters who could just leave you to die and some pig guards with spears in the building where you keep ALL the hutts during there meeting seriously
TBF, the Hutts explicitly bailed the first time Maul got sent to the shadow realm. After that it was Mando’s, Pykes, and Black Sun.
To your point however, Maul probably should have NEVER bullied the Hutts into going along with his little club house.
On your point about "Dark Lord: rise of darth vader"
The clones that disobey the orders are clone commandos; that may not sound like anything, but they're a specific type of clone trooper bred with less obedience that the rest of the clones. The rest of the clones (as mentioned in ep 2) were genetically engineered to be obedient to the republic. Clone commandos only make up a microfraction of the GATR and were usually alone in isolated reconnaissance missions (and not with jedi). In short, this is a non-issue already accounted for in EU lore.
Edit: all your additional examples fall under this reasoning; just painful hearing you beat this (probably unintentional) strawman. Probably shouldn't have tried to"Uhm ackshully!" people who've actually read this stuff.
No; the inhibitor chips and the brainwashing aren't the same. Its "I know I have to do this" vs turning the clones into droids; it turns it from a misinformed choice to them being robots with zero agency.
I don't think the chips are necessary, and I think you pointed out why they became necessary: the expanded content outside of the films including the clones depicts them as beings that are NOT disposable non-humans. They're completely expendable in the films, because they're essentially organic versions of the droids the Republic is fighting. It's considered a waste of time when Anakin decides to help some of them at the start of the 3rd film.
Folks acting like trigger words aren’t a thing in media lol
They were and are never necessary, people WHO believe that soldiers that are trained and drilled since birth and also biologically altered to follow Orders cannot follow Orders never looked into History , the Nazis are a huge example of that and they didnt have a decade Long Training ,child soldiers are another example of this, also the Expanded Universe Made Sure to Show that Clones arent goodie to Shows puppies with the Jedi and Had 150 contignecy Orders Not Just one Order that IS somehow easily removed by a basic surgery to save your Favorite filoni OC
Exactly. Sheev's criticism of the Clone Wars is pretty good...but his defense of the chips is pretty bad.
Personally, the only reason I’d defend the chips (and the Clones’ individuality by extension) is because the Clones are supposed to be excellent soldiers.
Unquestioning obedience to orders by the letter and zero initiative are the characteristics of an incompetent army, not vice versa. On that account, I’d call this discrepancy a fault of Lucas.
@@OrangeMacawWorld Flexible thinking in how to approach a situation is not the same as the ability to disobey orders. Robots are literal and will just do what they are told in a direct, literal sense.
The clones have flexible thinking in how to go about what they're told to do. That's their big advantage.
I have been bringing up the point of Krells character falling flat for ages, I feel so validated
Nothing is more awesome than the feeling of satisfaction
“Death is nothing compared to vindication.”
-Konrad Curze
@@morningwoody4514 40K!!
Me too 😂
It would have been much better if the show explored that jedi like the protagonists were exceptions in an order of emotionally detached dogmatic monks with 0 experience commanding an army.
I really like how people be like “you hate Star Wars” to Sheev when his channel name is literally a Star Wars character, and has multiple hour+ long videos on it 💀
Not only a SW character, but an kinda obscure name for one of the characters with 2 way more mainstream names
Sheev is also THEE main villain of the entire story, so that's another way to look at it.
Totally agree on the Umbara ark. It would have been much much better if Krell wasn't just some evil asshole.
But Krell should be an even bigger a-hole for the clones to hate him.
Nah that showed a "ridgid jedi" who thinks the republic itself has lost it`s way and gotten worse...he still viewed himself as a jedi and the clones as disposible.
No it wouldn’t have. At all.
@@Jdudec367 No bro he I went from an interesting Jedi who treated the clones like dirt to a generic guy who just wanted to be sith under dooku
@@boomer.beasley No he was an interesting jedi just a corrupt one who was gonna eventually stop being one for how he sees the republic.
Clone Wars 2003 multimedia project: Perfectly chronicles the entire clone wars through books, video games, comics and an acclaimed animated series, masterfully uniting the prequel era with the rest of the Star Wars continuity
Dave Filoni: "I am gonna pretend I didn't see that" 🤠
The sad thing is that at first it looked like they were going to at least try fitting in with existing Clone Wars material. I mean, TCW didn't show the early days of the war, Anakin and Ventress are already acquainted, Anakin's Padawan braid is gone, Obi-Wan's mullet is gone etc.
Nah 2003 TCW was good but I think a good-faithed person could agree that it just wasn’t as big in scope, impressive, or compelling due to its mode. That’s why people love Tales of the Jedi, it had a much easier job-less mistakes to make.
Georgre was fine with that too though and really? If we are being honest...yeah the 2003 project had contradictions too especially the micro series.
@@Jdudec367 Not really. 2003 series fits almost seamlessly with the movies. They even used the right cybernetic arm for Anakin in the early days of the war.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Yes really. No if that was true, again the strength of the characters would be way more consistent.
1:04:34 @SheevTalks There's something really major here that you didn't talk about - Namely, the relationship between Palpatine and Dooku, and Palpatine's given reasoning for wanting Ventress gone.
See, Palpatine says that he believes Ventress has grown too powerful, and he wants Dooku to get rid of her because he believes that Dooku could be training her to be his own Sith apprentice against Palpatine.
The issue here, is that Palpatine has been openly grooming Anakin to be his future Sith apprentice. Dooku knows this. So if Dooku knows that Sidious is planning to ignore the Rule of Two and take on Anakin, how can he possibly accept getting rid of Ventress on the logic that she's too powerful and violates the Rule of Two? Because then, Anakin being made an apprentice can only possibly mean that Sidious is planning to betray Dooku and get rid of him.
At that point, the only sensible thing to do would have been for Dooku to recognize that he's being played, and do exactly as Palpatine says he suspected he was doing anyway, and betray Palpatine while taking Asajj as his own true Sith apprentice. And in fact Dooku has every advantage there, since he can out Palpatine as a Sith and already has a galactic military poised to take over the Republic in the resulting chaos. Hell, half the Jedi Order would probably defect and join him if they'd found out that they were working for a Sith Lord and Dooku was right about the Republic's corruption all along. And of course, this is all kind of exactly what Dooku is supposed to do according to the Sith code, betray his master the moment that he's no longer absolutely necessary.
I really hope you touch on this next video.
Dooku knows about Anakin being groomed?
@@Tat011 100%.
Source?
@@Tat011 It's said at numerous points in the EU, DU, and I think even TCW. For example in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Dooku specifically thinks about how the plan is supposed to be Anakin joining him and Sidious.
dude dooku clearly didnt know anakin was replacing him, that's why he was so shocked when sidious told anakin to kill him, he thought for sure his master would save him coz he was under the impression that he (dooku) was the apprentice
I always found it annoying how fives wasn’t the the one with the FIVE FINGER HAND PRINT ON HIS CHEST. Genuinely swap their designs it becomes much better lol
Echo's symbol should have been a shout
Should be three handprints.
Yeah that's because Rex puts a blood covered hand on Echo's chest plate on Rishi minor and has nothing to the hand having 5 fingers.
@@tristanlee8495 I get that but it’s like visual association. Universal symbol of 5 not on the guy named fives
@@pajamapantsjack5874 star wars is ironic like that sometimes. It's poetic, it rhymes
The whole chip argument COMPLETLY misses the whole fan critique of the chips. The Chip makes the clone conditionoing into a on/off switch that the writers use as a get-out-of-jail-free card when ever the choose to 'redeem' a clone. It's bad because it cheapens what should be an act of character development into a plot Mcguffin, it's litteral deus-ex-machina for character development.
Exactly. Doesn't help that he handwaves off the thorough explanation of Order 66 in the EU
Honestly? I couldnt care less. Its valid criticism of course and your opinion is valid Im just offering a different view so I hope this doesnt come off as me being like "nooo ur wrong wuw"
See my view is quite simple, childish even, and its: I like the clones and I dont want them to be baddies :(
Is it silly? Sure. Maybe. But to be honest I loved getting to know the Clones and I like that despite the horrible conditions they found some friendship with the Jedi (even though its a sticky situation bc ya know SLAVE ARMY).
And I like that we have kinda muddied the waters a little bit when it comes to the chip.
I feel like the command DOES work. But we see Rex resisting it. We also see Cody obey with no hesitation but he seems like he regrets it, so maybe on some level it is a choice, but resisting is way harder?
Honestly Ive never cared.
I love Star Wars as it is, all of it.
Yes even the sequels, even though I was sorely disappointed, I still find enjoyment in it.
I guess Im not a very critical fan😂
@@FrostbiteDigitalHe didn't though.
Not to rain on your parade or anything but boys in white went on to keep the galaxy under the Empire's boot for two decades straight after that. They aren't anybody's friends.
@@francescapatti2934
@@AshanBhatoa He did though
It is a grave disappointment that Count Dooku and General Grievous were not depicted correctly. Count Dooku was a visionary, a political idealist who saw through the corruption of the senate and tried to make the galaxy a better place for all involved. General Grievous was once Qymaen jai Sheelal and fought to liberate his people from Hukk enslavement only for the Republic and Jedi to side with the very slavers. Their distain and hatred for the Republic were justified and the show could have explored both them in a human light. However instead it tried to degrade Count Dooku and General Grievous into mustache cackling villains. Clearly this show is made as blatant Pro-Republic propaganda. The show also should have explored more of the causes of why so many Outer Rim worlds seceded from the Republic and truly make the main characters question just how righteous the Republic's cause is when they are trying to force star systems back into their government at blaster point.
32:24 My suspicion is that this is the result of a larger overarching issue with the show, its non-chronological anthology structure.
The show is never clear about where in the timeline any individual arc takes place. There is some degree of chronology, but for all intents and purposes the story resets at the end of every arc and there is no clear info on how much time passes between them.
This creates a lot of problems when it comes to overarching character plotlines, as they’re essentially in a perpetual limbo for most of the series.
What I suspect happened here is that because everything exists in "non-specific limbo-time between AotC and RotS", the dialogue writers didn’t know the exact timeline. So they defaulted to "over 10 years" and no one caught the discrepancy.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the chips. Not because I think they're that _bad,_ but because I think not having them would've been more interesting. This is informed largely by my reading of canon outside of TCW:
I like the idea that the Jedi weren't prepared to lead a clone army. Hell, they weren't prepared to wage war _at all._ The point of Sheev's plan was that he handed the Jedi a noose to hang themselves by pushing them into a situation that would cause them to betray their ideals. The Jedi were meant to be _atrocious_ generals, at least for the most part. They wouldn't connect with clones as individuals, and get a lot of them killed unnecessarily. The idea that clones bonded closely with their clone commanders is a TCW addition, as is the idea that the Jedi were particularly good at leading the war.
Not all clones _hated_ their generals. In fact, Aayla Secura was massively respected. That's why they overkill her in the Order 66 scene. It looks brutal, but they're trying to kill her as quickly as possible so she won't suffer for long. If the chip turns the clones into mindless drones, we lose that.
With how TCW handled it, the chips were necessary because the Jedi were too heroic, and bonded too much with the clones. But personally I wish we'd gotten to see the failure of the Jedi, and the growing resentment by most of the clones.
My big issue with them is they just turn the clones into "wet droids," something every other part of the EU went to great lengths to avert.
The problem with TCW is that they always chickened out of delving into the more sinister side of having a clone army.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the chips either, but I can see both sides of it. And either way we're talking about programming someone to follow orders, it's basically just a question of hardware vs software.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Especially one made up of children.
Their is still no justification for the Jedi being put in command of the Army, Nothing Palpatine did would justify it. The Jedi are a tiny elite martial religious order that have only been given mediatior/police duties before. If they were to be utilized in a war it would logically be as some kind of special forces branch of the army, which is what they ACTUALLY do 99% of the time. Their role as commanders is never justified, the Senate should have no reason to want them to be the Generals, the Senators should all be tring to promote their own cronies and political allies to these plum positions, and the Jedi order should want to remain reclusive and apolitical, infact they should be trying to remain as completly non-combatants and mediators for an eventual peace settlment, like some kind of diplomatic-corp. The Jedi being forced into a kind of special forces role later in the war as public pressure mounts would be belivable and a good scheme by Palpatine to put them in the line of fire. But generals on day 1 was just rediculus.
The fact that you still like star wars helps me appreciate your perspective more readily. I listened really hard to your previous video and walked away accepting your input but also really disappointed to do so. The fact that you like star wars, including clone wars, helps me accept your input. You also defended the inhibitor chips and focused on the political consequences, which helped me feel really validated lol
36:45 holy fucking shit no way that was real, it seems like a mad skit or something, one of the most 2008 to 2010 thing ever
Mature show for adults btw
i remember watching it back in the day lol. Good times
That guitar in the background, so good!
Ah, because advertising is indicative of the content. *COUGH* Avatar the last Airbender *COUGH* Rango *COUGH COUGH*
I have to disagree with your opinion on Order 66: In Legends, Order 66 is part of a list of publicly visible emergency protocols approved by the Senate, which included, among other things, Order 66, which states that if treason is proven, the Jedi concerned will be punished with force or death Violence must be neutralized on the orders of the Republican high command. There was also a comparable protocol (Order 67), which said the same thing for the Supreme Chancellor and could come into force through the Senate. The fact that such emergency protocols are being issued is by no means absurd; comparable things exist in reality, certainly in your home country too. And it's hard to argue that such a thing makes sense, given the fact that Dooku was once a Jedi and other Jedi changed sides over the course of the Clone Wars. There is therefore also a public interest in the Galactic Republic to take precautions against such cases of high treason on the part of the Jedi. In addition, Order 66 is legally legitimized in this way, which means that it was at least formally a legally correct process to eliminate the Jedi. Therefore I am against the inhibitor chips and for this version. And the clones become more interesting because they make the decision themselves whether they believe their general is a traitor or not. In the end they received an order from the high command that was certainly correct ;)
Not to mention in Legends, most Jedi were aloof and not interested in the clones, increasing/inspiring aggravation. Most Jedi weakened the clones fighting ability by pushing them into melee ranged fights. Clones were highly trained and had advanced communication, allowing them to communicated and enact advanced(compared to the rest of Star Wars) tactics. Emotionally there were a lot of validation for betrayal. The Jedi actively spoke against “politicians,” giving some evidence for possible treason.
Small correction, it is Order 65 not 67.
@@Dayze2 It's a difference between the Clone Wars as written by, say, Jan Ostrander and Karen Traviss, vs. it written by Dave Filoni. The first two have multiple characters on all ends of the moral spectrum, while Filoni treats it with all the nuance of a superhero comic.
The movie provided enough ambiguity to allow that original interpretation of Order 66. But TCW utterly destroys it because it is no longer an order about any specific Jedi which might have simply issued to many units to each take out THEIR specific Jedi as if that one Jedi had been exposed as a traitor like Krell. Order 66 in TCW became on its face a complete decapitation attack which orders every clone to FOREVER after kill all Jedi (and former Jedi) onsight, everywhere without exception or a hint of due process. It is not possible to interprit it as anything other then a coup order.
@@kennethferland5579 As an added bonus, it actually applies to anyone with a lightsaber, and can be activated by anyone: Jocasta Nu uses it against the Inquisitors and Vader in one of the newer Marvel comics.
It's an astonishingly stupid mechanic.
your criticism of characterization in this show (inconsistency, failure to develop, missed opertunity et al) are spot on. if you do a part 3 it would be nice to see you tackle the inconsistency of the shows message over all: is it about the important of individuality, the fight against tyranny, freedom versus dogma, the fall of darth vader etc. it all tends to come off as 'star wars does war film', 'star wars does detective story', 'star wars does overly simplistic morality tale' etc.
They could have given Maul's entire storyline in Clone Wars to Savage Opress.
Exactly.
Along with his vague character development from Darth Maul, who should not be revived, he’s already a corpse. Also, it would have been fine if Roonan Jedi Master Halsey and a Nautolan Jedi Padawan Knox were the two Jedi he ever faced but left out the fight with Adi Gallia, but maybe fought Anakin or any other peer.
I can’t take his name seriously. Every time I see the name Savage Opress, I just start laughing my ass off.
@@max7971TBF, it goes pretty hard if you treat it like a fake name from Roger from American Dad lol
@@max7971 Do we really want to start talking about which Star Wars names are hard to take seriously?
Captain Hindsight could've been a Star Wars name and would have fit right in.
Maul
Grevious
Sidious
Padme
Plo Koon
General Disarray...
I'd honestly be fine with a longer video. If anyone says it's too long, to quote the man Sheev himself.
"If you don't find long-form videos palatable *breathe in* you don't have to keep watching." - Source: The Kenobi Series Harvested my Kidneys and Sold Them on eBay (PART ONE) Timestamp: 3:22
this.
Just put that shit on in the background while grinding in a survival game. It's perfect. You're distracted enough to be able to keep your thoughts focused just enough to always keep listening, but not so distracted that you miss things.
Citing your sources? Based
I always hated the praise of, oh this show "fixes" the Prequels... Which I mean, no, it doesn't.
I actually love the Prequels and believe you don't need any outside material to know whats going on, nor do you need this show to "fix" the films.
It's similar to the falsehood of A New Hope being "saved" in the edit, because no, it wasn't. It went through the normal editing process literally every successful film goes through. To that end, every box office hit was, "saved" in the edit.
Couldn't agree more. The prequels don't need any of the so-called "fixing" people claim; they're flawed, yes, like any other media-but a lot of the things detractors dislike about them aren't even objective faults with the writing, rather creative choices that weren't to their taste. In other words, I've noticed many of the "criticisms" levied at the prequels aren't actual critiques, but entirely based on subjective preferences. There _are_ valid criticisms-like Shmi's death not being brought up again in AotC when it's so important to Anakin's arc-but those are so few and far between everything else prequel haters like to hurl at the movies.
The prequels have more compelling storytelling than TCW (I won't go into detail here since it would prolong this already long-winded reply, but I have plenty of analytical musings written down elsewhere and around various comment sections). Filoniwars is basically a watered-down, kiddie version of the Clone Wars era, especially when you include the EU in the comparison. I like TCW (heck, I even like aspects of Rebels) for what it is (and see it as a standalone continuity not canon to the films/EU), but at no point have I thought it comes anywhere close to the films' and EU's nuances and maturity. Part of the reason I look at it that way is because I didn't grow up with Star Wars: I'm not nostalgia-blinded by any of it the way so many other fans seem to be.
@@AnimaVox_ Exactly. I personally consider The Clone Wars an alternate universe/timeline because of the MANY inconsistencies it causes to the films.
What's funny is I did grow up with the OT and Prequels and am a huge fan, (luckily was a big fan of basically everything on the 3 big tv channels back then), but I have an uncanny ability to not let nostalgia blind me. (Unlike many so called, "critics")
Again, I love the Prequels, just as much as the OT, which I saw first.
The Prequels are flawed, but in the exact same way the OT is. It's just part of the charm.
As for the inhibitor chips I always thought it was more tragic that the clones would choose loyalty to the Republic over any personal feelings and in their moment of ultimate dedication doomed the very thing they thought they were saving. Making the clones unable to choose that outcome, be forced into it always seemed like a lazy way to deal with the moral culpability of the clones. Instead of good men making a tough choice you have biological robots.
On the other hand stripping away the freedom and individuality of an entire army as the first step in founding an autocratic empire is kinda deliciously evil.
I completely agree with you. However I think it is more tragic for the freedom and individuality to be willfully surrendered by the clones rather than taken by force. The problem with the chips from a thematic standpoint is it gives the clones an out. An excuse for their actions, something else they could blame. "It is not my fault, the big bad chip made me do it." Meanwhile there was something more gripping about the troopers that legit believed in their orders. Of course there would be exceptions, but Sheev like so many pro chip members, overplays the exceptions. Just because one disobeys doesn't mean all or even most will. Otherwise going by the same logic, the Empire should not had made it even 20 years.
@@kingorange7739 I mean it makes sense that Palp wouldn't want to leave the key piece of his evil plan up to the fickle conscious of thousands of clones. It also gives him an absolutely loyal force to rely on during the transition from Republic to Empire which historically is when governments are most vulnerable.
BUT I think you're right. It's a lazy out so we can both have these characters we are supposed to like and have them do Order 66 because nuance is bad.
Is it not more evil to manipulate what is essentially a slave population to kill the only group that might have one day when war had ceased altered their fates by their own choices using the flaws of the heroes?
Yes, someone who properly understands the reason why the chips are bad. It never had anything to do with the PHYSICAL plausability of the concept (Shev is hopelessly off base in defending this aspect of the chips and thus completly strawmans the chips critics). It's all about how it erases the moral weight of the situation. AND I think worst of all, it provides the writers a cheap (and repeatedly abused) means to just 'redeem' clones without doing any actual character growth. The ultimate deus-ex-machina of character growth if you will.
@hferland5579 That's an excellent point. I've considered such a thing vaguely but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Another thing it does is it removes the narrative tragedy. Narrative tragedy, especially traditional greek tragedies which the Prequels are, require the weight of the failings of the protagonists to be at fault for the fall. The Jedi are at fault for accepting the clones in the original, the clones are slaves of the Republic who will zealously gun down any who oppose it, imperial troops in all but name who would unwaveringly commit atrocity if it were ordered or for the benefit of the Republic that see the defensive tactics, preservation of life, & other such things as essentially weakness. They're closer to Mandalorians than Republic troops in terms of values. They were always willing to kill them, they were always the threat, tragic as they may be being essentially slaves they chose to stay that path & slay the Jedi in the end, as they always were going to.
There's so much narrative weight lost by taking away the choices in so many directions. It doesn't just remove the clones as moral actors, it removes the faults of the Jedi that led to their tragic end.
The hottest take from this video is implying Victor Freeze is poorly written in BTAS
What part?
@@diegodunn-humphrey512 somewhre kinda early, it's a visual refrence
When did he imply that? Is there a time stamp I can go to?
He was just giving an example of a show, that might not hold up on a closer look.
We dont know, what part he meant. It could be Freeze or it could be more likely the scene itself.
I mean Batman just managed to break Freezes helmet with nothing more than hot soup, he just carries around in his belt without it being a hindrance to his movement.
@@MataNui.6:40 but he doesnt imply Freeze being the badly written character, but more the scene itself
Its still weird AF that a main character wasent mentioned ONCE in RotS. Season 7 of clone wars really dropped the ball by having her talking to Anakin just MOMENTS before the movie. At least with season 6 you could say "Well they haven't talked for months"
I assume your reffering to Ahsoka. Well as much as she makes the time period inconsistent she wasn't a thing when ROTS was made she didn't exist so of course she wouldn't be mentioned in the movie.
It always annoyed me how cartoonishly evil the separartists and especially Dooku was in CW. It seemed like in AOTC they had legitimate reasons to leave the republic, like the senate being corrupt and the republic being too controlling of trade and how slow the senate must have been with thousands of systems needing to agree on laws. I assumed they had legitimate political disagreements with the republic just like Dooku had with the Jedi. It would've been interesting if the separatists had less democratic governments and maybe certain religions that were discriminated against in the republic, as well as officials fed up with the slow moving bureaucracy in the senate. They could've reflected real life with the whole idea of America "exporting democracy" by overthrowing Middle Eastern governments. To be clear I'm not saying what authoritarian governments do in our world is good or justifiable, but the idea of a massive democratic superpower intervening in authoritarian regimes that want no business with them could be the foundation of a real political struggle that would cause the separatist movement.
Or you know, they could all just be greedy evil corrupt moustache twirling villains who enslave native populations, engage in casual genocide, and at one point try to release the black plague on the galaxy (seriously), having no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I guess that works too.
The only part of the clone wars show that even touches on that is my personal favorite episode, “Heroes on Both Sides”. It does a good job of showing the dichotomy of the morally good politics of the Separatists against the evil actions of the military. I do wish the clone wars did touch on the in all honesty fascinating politics of the Clone Wars Itself more than like-once
I agree that there's no real strong ideology shown for the Separatists and their reasoning, it's disappointing that there's not more given to the "heroes on all sides" line. But I also kinda like the notion that the bulk of the Separatist systems are planets that have cultural/political/economic grievances with the Republic, while there's a cabal of leadership that's really motivated by trade, taxation, greed, personal gain etc. who manipulate/subvert the other less influential systems for a Mutual gain, but one where they're the bigger winners. That seems rather credible and just more interesting.
I agree that Dooku and the other separatist villains having no humanity or compassion is a little distracting. Or them having no true ideology other than Republic bad. But I do think the separatists mirror many modern day real life countries in which the people who live in them aren’t the problem, their leaders are, as seen in Heroes on Both Sides as someone else mentioned. Just look at countries like North Korea, Cuba, Belarus, Iran, even the U.S. to some degree. It’s also worth noting that the separatists are heavily inspired by the real life American Confederacy which was also comically evil from all angles, endorsing slavery and eradicating cultures just like in Star Wars. It can be frustrating when villains in a tv show commit atrocious crimes but…. That’s kinda the norm when talking about great wars and powers. Things like the Armenian and Cambodian genocides can happen with no sense to it and the Separatists feel authentic to me in that context.
I dont think the chips ruin anything, I just hate seeing Filoni refuse to tarnish his favourite characters. I also think that the clones obeying orders adds to the tragic weight of episode 3.
If you make perfectly conditioned genetic soldiers, it makes sense to have contingency plans. If we saw other orders being executed in the series it would add precedent. The Krell arc is a good place for this. They also could've revealed historic mistrust between the kaminoans and the jedi. Maybe a clone with vital information is captured, and a contingency protocol to self-destruct is activated, causing the clone to kill himself immediately in a horrible fashion.
I honestly think that the chips make order 66 more tragic because the clones are being forced into becoming mindless drone made to kill and serve. They’re just as much victims of Palpatine as the Jedi.
"The old canon order 66 doesn't work because he would have had to pass a bill for it." Ah, shoot, you're right. Just like the bill he had to pass to get the army made in the first place. Or even the bill he had to pass to get the chips put in, right? So if you're saying the issue of *how* he got order 66 arranged is a problem without the chips but not with them, that's nonsense. If you're saying it's a logistical problem either way, then that's fair, and it's one that we have to accept that Palpatine overcame either way, in each version of the canon. I also don't think it's difficult to argue that it would be much harder to hide the presence of the chips than the presence of the order, but that's a longer argument.
8:55 Sheev you made a massive mistake regarding that sub-plot where clones disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.
The clones who disobeyed weren't the standard clone troopers that the Kaminoan Prime Minister was showing and describing to Obi-Wan, they were *Clone Commandos* which were genetically different from standard CTs because they retained more independence than the regular clones (but not as much as the Null Clones and Arc Troopers) because they were independent special forces units meant to do toygh jobs behind enemy lines that normal clones weren't made to handle.
Not to mention that you were a bit hypocritical saying that you're going to disregard all EU stuff regarding clone obedience but immediately use a piece of EU material that I hopefully believe you misremembered or misunderstood and not trying to make a bad faith argument along the lines of those that used Luuuke and Skippy the Jedi Droid as examples of how bad the entire EU was to justify Disney decanonizing it.
Yes, which I completely would argue that Sidious would not allow for. Clone Commandos would not be left to be rogue contingents.
True....however his other points aout the chips still stands. I will like your comment because it is a good point, but I still agree with him on the inhibitor chips overall despite me agreeing with most of the video.
@@Jdudec367 I prefer if they weren't just chips, make it a whole unremovable part of their brains. Still the same result and same dilemmas, just no more cop outs on making hard choices such as whether a jedi can spare a clone like Ahsoka did with Rex.
@@AAhmou I see
Skippy the Jedi Droid was a joke side story they made for fun he's not a canon character. Anyone that uses Skippy to say the old EU was bad needs to be ignored because they're either being dishonest or ignorant enough that everything they say should be brought into question.
I had the same issues with Krell. He would've been a much better character if they made him a more extreme version of Nadar Veb from season 1. Nadar's issue was that he only had one episode to set up his downfall.
Krell had four episodes and they could've set up that at one point he was a respected Jedi but over the war he lost sight of that and became a man obsessed with victory no matter the cost. In the show it's so obvious that he's evil with him sending his men into death traps for 4 episodes straight
Well yeah it was obvious krell was screwy after a bit bit that's where the tensions comes from! The clones trying to work around him and eventually prove him to be treasonous to the rest if the army.
Krell should have an arc where he is a supporting good guy.
Sheev, gotta level with you; you're forgetting *WHY* the chips are needed. From your perspective, yes, they were needed. But that perspective is with TCW's writing already in mind, with the Jedi and Clones being buddy pals already established. The original lore was specifically that many of the Clones were like Slick, who resented the Jedi for exactly the same nuanced reasons you usually keep mentioning, such as their disjointed emotional deadness, their hypocrisy, and their arrogance. Their lack of care, while claiming to be caregivers. The Clones and the Jedi were not friends. That was a Filoni retcon. So I am honestly unsure as to why you'd make the claim that the chips were necessary based off his writing. Yes, within HIS narrative they were needed, but that's because the fool retconned it to be necessary in the first place.
It used to be a nuanced topic. Did the indentured servants/slave soldiers not have a right to gun down the Jedi, who claimed to be against slavery and pro peace but decided to fashion a human army that wasn't allowed to desert without punishment to fight their war for them, in order to be free? That was the original question.
Now the narrative is: ''Poor Jedi. Poor Clones. They are objectively the good guys, and those poor Clones wouldn't never done this evil deed if the objective bad guys hadn't put objectively evil microchips of objective evilness in their heads because they're the objectively bad guys and therefore objectively evil which is why they committed such an objectively evil act.''
Personally, I, like yourself, prefer nuance over that. In summary, I view the microchip retcon of the Clones the same way I view the retcon of turning Dooku into a moustache twirling villain. It's the erasure of nuance and depth. The replacement of it with toned down, easy-to-digest side picking. There's no question about Dooku in TCW the way there was in AOTC and ROTS. He's the bad guy. And just the same way, there's no question involved with the Clones. They are the good guys who did a bad thing because bad people put a bad thing in their heads that takes their control away. Because this show panders to kids, and apparently to fans who don't have any more emotional maturity or worldliness than kids, which are the demographic that defend the microchips.
Just to ask, if im remembering this correctly, that in _The Rise of Darth Vader_ weren't those clones clone commandos? Because if they were, that would explain the seeming contradiction since clone commandos were bred to be much more independent than your average clone.
I’m pretty sure they were
Yeah, they were. Sheev's points about the Clones in the old EU is pretty weak and full of misunderstanding of the books.
Exactly. Standard clones weren’t independent and were obedient to a fault, but commandos were bred specifically to be independent to fulfill their assigned duties.
Yes this was the reason the EU created the ARC and commandos, the writers understood that writing stories about regular clone troopers would create lore issues and limitations. They took the idea of Boba Fett being an unmodified clone and said let's create a type of clone that sits in the middle half way between Boba and regular trooper. That removed the limitations of their storytelling and avoided the Order 66 obedience issues. Filoni with TCW didn't have this foresight. The inhibitor chip is the bandaided result of making all clones as independent as they liked, with promotions and training being the difference between an ARC and troopers not genetics.
@@RoboticPope Pretty much, as I remember that Clone Commandos and ARC Troopers were directly bred not trained and promoted.
Not to mention that, if I remember correctly, the clones at the end of that book were willing to swarm the rogue commandos in human wave tactics to get to them.
Can i complain about Maul's legs for a sec? Cuz it's been driving me crazy since i first saw it.
Talzin uses broken droids to give Maul these monster legs which are so good in terms of design, they're a visual representantion of Mauls inhumanity, making him look more monster like. He also uses them to do that move were he grabs his oponent in the face with and chucks them around, a move that makes him look more intimidating and further cements what i just said. They're also a constant visual reminder that he lost his legs... to Obi Wan, which is what he's all about (they're also just cool).
Anyway his legs get almost immediately replaced with robot legs so uninteresting you legitimately forget they're prosthetics... why? why did this happen? how did this happen? it's so endlessly frustrating.
Maybe they thought the inhuman legs made him look too much like Grievous and didn't want to associate Maul with him. Still a pretty dumb decision.
They made him look like a chicken.
@@anonymous-hz2un I didn't know chickens had 3 joints and 4 fingers in their legs.
@@Tat011 they're neither made out of metal, but they still look like chicken legs.
@@anonymous-hz2un
I think the point he was making is that they don't...
Finally somebody else who noticed that the film clearly stated that Anakin and Grevious never met, but more importantly it's heavily implied that Obi-Wan and Grevious never met either.
You even mention the exact points I always bring up, like why would Grevious say he was trained in Jedi arts by Dooku... When clearly in the Clone Wars, Kenobi would have already known that, then Kenobi looking surprised at the 4 arms, almost like he's seeing them for the first time, but the Clone Wars ignores all that.
And then the Dooku and Anakin stuff, exactly!
My powers have doubled since the last time we met Count.
...Oh, you mean from last week?
It’s honestly annoying how Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin were all together for an episode and instead of being interesting in any way it just plays out like a sit-com.
Like it is a genuinely funny episode but at the same time it just screams wasted potential. It just feels like an R/prequelmemes shitpost and it could’ve been so much more
The whole show is a sitcom, just without the com at times.
Honestly…The Clone Wars does have a majority of the conventions a typical sitcom has now I’m thinking about it. Lmao.
As much as I love the humor in those episodes, I am disappointed they didn't give us something with more gravity.
I absolutely love the Clone Wars. This video, and its preceding one, caught my eye because I love hearing different perspectives. You've opened my eyes to a lot of the flaws I've been previously blind towards and it shed a lot of light on things is never really thought about critically due to my nostalgia.
As a writer, you've helped me understand how to improve stories with minor changes. The rant about Umbara especially is what did it for me. Crazy how making him just a resentful Jedi instead of a Sith wannabe changes the entirety of the nuance and gives those episodes so much more depth.
Bravo! Excellent videos! You've most definitely earned my subscription! I can't wait for your next critique!
Honestly, I think the problem with those accusations you mentioned at the end aren't really bad faith or an indicator of cognitive bias per se; rather, they're an indicator of the way that Faloni's writing encourages its audience to think. He alludes vaguely to deeper explanations, to get the fans thinking about what those explanations might be; and in so doing, encourages his audience to accept their headcanon as the intended explanation of events.
But if a person's headcanon is what's keeping the story from falling apart then they might be a little bit brainwashed
Because having your audience fill in the gaps of your story via headcanon or third party media is lazy writing
Cut (the deserter) his kids were adopted. His wife was a single mom, her original husband died when they were young. Although, it should be noted, in lore, humans, togruta, and twielek are able to interbreed since we all share a common ancestor. Togrutas and twieleks were originally humans modified by the Rakatta as a slave race for harsher planets then what humans could inhabit comfortably
So would a Human and a Twilek produce a hybrid, or a human, or a twilek?
@@joshuaslawson9125 most likely, either a normal human or a twilek.
Yeah we can pretty much assume this. I didnt know sheev before these videos and a lot of the points he brings up are more than correct, but sometimes it just seems that his opinion is objectively flawed and can be dismantled by either common sence or more elaborate arguments. 2 examples can be made, the former being cut's kids and the second being that in legends there were 150 contingency orders, so having one being against the jedi was never taken into serious consideration; lets be reminded that order 65 was a contingency order for the military to dethrone the current reigning chancellor from office, so even if the jedi did suspect such an order, they would have brushed it off due to the complexity of application of all the other contingency orders.
Yeah but the Rakata (as awesome as they are) were pretty much COMPLETELY thrown out of the new canon. The only thing known about them is, A: they existed/exist, and B: they possibly gave humans the technology for hyperspace travel. That's it.
Order 66 is not "just another Order" or "Protocol" the Jedi shouldnt know about, its a Contingency Order! And the jedi were well aware of that! It doesnt open up a... can of worms or something. Because there were 150 similar Orders, even one for the clones to turn against the chancellor, which would require the approval of the Senate or the Republic Security Council. But Palpatine already had the entire senate under him, so he could execute those Contingency Orders. Furthermore, tose orders being a part of the entire republic military makes sure that everyone, even the non-cloned personnel like Fleet-Soldiers and Officers would be participating on Order 66!
It also makes them stand out less. Having a contingency for the Jedi betraying the Republic makes sense, having that among 150 other orders including one to take down the Supreme Chancellor makes it unassailable.
It does make the Jedi idiots to be surprised by the Clones turning once they think Palpatine is a sith
@@rennythespaceguy7285 Um, what?
@@papapalps2415 If it's public knowledge Palpatine has the power to have the clones kill every Jedi if he feels like it why is every Jedi so blind-sighted by order 66, they all were pretty suspicious of Palpatine by the end of the war
@@rennythespaceguy7285 no it doesnt. Or were the germans idiots for Hitler abusing the emergency paragraphs from the constitution to stay in power the whole time?
10:20 Commando clones are different from the regular clone troopers in that the Kaminoans didn't apply the standard behavior correction to them due to Jango Fett and his Mandalorian military advisors advocating for soldiers that could handle more difficult missions.
I’m so glad you talked so much about the nightsisters and their magic shit. I’ve always hated them, what they can do and the implications on the world. And I never hear anyone bringing this up. Everyone else just seemed to be cool with it and it’s so maddening
Even if the Ashoka events happen in a different order… it would still be an example of her learning the same lesson twice in relatively quick succession…
Sometimes I wish TCW just fully committed to being an alternate universe instead of trying to fit into the movies and failing.
This video really showcases how not only doesn't make sense these events leading into the movies. But their natural conclusion would have been extremely interesting by themselves.
Edit: I remember the Night sisters being stupid but holy shit they were so much worse than I remember.
Dude the problem with your argument for the chip is ignoring the fact order 66 is just execute superior officer nothin more your kind of overcomplicating stuff and it doesn't help the independent clones you mentioned were trained independent plus thr clones were openly betrayed by the jedi when they heard the order in the eu
Exactly. He is either accidentally of purposely misrepresenting the context surrounding how Order 66 was done prior to the chips. I also find he grossly underplays the senate's mistrust they had for the Jedi. Of course the senate would have a safe guard order against the Jedi if they went rogue, especially since not only were Jedi going rogue during the war (Something the EU shows), but the leader of the entire Separatist movement was an ex Jedi.
@@kingorange7739there's a few issues of Republic devoted to the notion that a lot of the jedi not named anakin or obi-wan just aren't that good at commanding armies, not out of malice or spite or anything, just incompetence. one Jedi whose name escapes me right now is at a debriefing and he says something along the lines of "they're good men. i wish i served them better" which prompts a senator to question the competence of Jedi as generals.
hell, quinlan vos' and commander faie's conflict is literally prompted by quinlan's inexperience as a general combined with faie's adherence to protocol.
Looking back on it I think your points against the Umbara ark are pretty strong. Krell just being evil diminishes the previous plot points of the entire ark. Thinking on it now, wouldn’t it have been much more interesting if Krell was a diehard loyal general of the Republic, and when the clones come to mutiny against him he escapes and tries to radio for help from the Republic? Imagine that as a final bit to the story: The clones who rebelled against Krell need to get him captured or killed before he can call in the rest of the army to slaughter them all, while simultaneously there is infighting among the clones over what to do. Some want to beg forgiveness and give up with the mutiny, others want Krell dead for his actions, and some want to tread a middle ground where they do not want Krell dead but also do not want him sending them to their deaths. Just my thoughts on the matter, thanks for the video!
Yeah, you know, like DRAMA?
@@johnstajduhar9617 Yes. Make the situation difficult, so that people can reasonable pick sides in the argument and have decent reasons for the side they pick.
One thing I'll say about the chip vs. no chip is that I think some folks underestimate the power of conditioning when it comes to soldiers and other people in the military. Where you are taught to follow orders and carry them out without question. Yeah, they're supposed to be lawful orders, but sometimes, in situations where it could be life or death, that judgement can seem extra muddy. Now take that and apply it to a group of genetically grown soldiers created for one purpose, then that muddiness becomes even messier.
I do think you gave a good defense/points for the chips, but I still stand that the "simply following orders" can and does work in it's own right. I think the issue is that the 3D show creates the need for the chips to exist by giving the clones so much screentime. Not to say that is a bad thing, but if we go off the movies and EU where they aren't as characterized outside of specific moments, it requires more than just "following orders." Especially on a grander scale with how they humanize pretty much all the clones. Where as the EU humanized specific clones.
Wasn’t really on board until you mentioned that Maul and Ventress are both madly in love with Obi-wan and now I’m laughing my ass off
While I agree with your overall premise about the show and a lot of your points, but the defense of the inhibitor chips was a major misfire.
And sorry, I'm not going to agree to disagree because I don't think your defenses are good on an analytical level and because while you're personal feelings may think they're good, personally feelings are more than the opposite. But I'll just focus on the arguments.
1) You can't really ignore the EU unless you just look at it in context of the Disney Canon. Because George Lucas approved the EU, it was canon at the time, TCW was part of the EU, and because George Lucas put it above the rest, it forced rewrites to the EU on many topics. If TCW was treated as S-Canon or N-Canon, only then could one ignore the EU.
2) The Rise of Darth Vader is an excellent argument for why the chips are a bad idea, narratively. You kill off the potential for good stories and the clones grappling with their actions because of it.
3) Worldbuilding issues. Just like with Disney's Canon, the issue of a small fraction but numerous number of Jedi survivors becomes that much more implausible. (So your argument for the chips is a strong argument against it given the wider canon.) The presence of the chip also creates far more failure points for the plan, given how many people on both sides study the clones. Not to mention what happens in the show itself. Then there's the problem of what happens afterwards when the clones realize they've been controlled, that creates a massive liability in your disgruntled army. Especially since TCW decided that the clones aren't specially obedient and think like normal people, even the average trooper. It also adds the Kaminoans as active participants into the conspiracy to wipe out the Jedi, making it so you've introduced a MASSIVE liability in the plan being discovered.
4) The clones in the EU have narrative reasons for being able to be unique. They were ARCs and Commandos, who were specially engineered to be far more independent.
5) Ignoring the line about being "totally obedient, obeying an order without question" or treating it as sales puffery is special pleading. It applies to the vast number of the army in the EU, and seemingly all of it in the PT. So yes, at best they're unnecessary to have a breakable chip rather than having them be expertly engineered from the ground up. So the "Palpatine wouldn't take the chance" argument is another argument *against* the chips.
6) The arguments aren't the exact same thing. I can see why you think so, but to me it seems to be because you aren't including the context above. Especially the average vs specialized troopers being different. (Also, remember that the chips don't just create total obedience. The show demonstrates that it's just a "kill Jedi" program.)
7) It makes Order 66 unlikely to happen? Mate, what? These were child soldiers genetically engineered to be completely obedient. You don't think soldiers in real life "just follow orders?" I'm sorry, but I cannot take this argument seriously. (And again, the average clone being a normal, well-adjusted person is a problem TCW created that they created the chips to solve.) Like, the EU (which I've already explained why it can't be ignored) showed how to tell the kind of story that TCW wanted to tell without failing at it. And in the EU, Order 66 was only one of 150 Emergency Contingency Orders that every clone memorized from the beginning. Which the Jedi did know about, since it was about if the Jedi went to the Dark Side and betrayed the Republic (like, say, Dooly). And it also included what to happen if the Senate overthrew the Supreme Chancellor. Or the Supreme Chancellor overthrew the Senate. Palpatine hid his plan in plain sight so Order 66 didn't seem out of place among 149 similar orders, like the rest of his plans. Rather than creating a bigger conspiracy.
8) The Contingency Orders wouldn't need a Senate bill, they're military protocol. You think military protocol gets decided by the main government of a nation IRL? This claim is introducing a hurdle that would never exist.
9) A chip with that level of control over its host would be easier to find than what's shown. It would have to be some bigger thing that expands throughout the brain to control so much of a clone's thoughts. It absolutely would have been found before. "Embedded into the genetic tissue" is a gobbledygook phrase, and since we're implying critical thinking here, that doesn't fly. And again, so much more unreliable than having a brain built from the ground up for the average trooper to obey without question. (Sarcasm.) Because not like a CIS scientist would ever pick apart a clone to figure out how it would work. (More sarcasm.) And Ahsoka using the Force to perform precise neurosurgery is awful.
10) They get easier to find. Only a special confluence of events would fry a chip. None of this is in the story, and is more special pleading given you won't take blatant exposition in AotC at face value.
Look, you like the chips. That's fine. Like what you like. But some twist yourself in knots trying to defend it and try to also say it makes sense and is the best option with a straight face.
While I think most of your criticisms of this show are valid, this defense is a massive misfire.
Right on. The chips, no matter which way you cut it, simply don't make sense. The leaps in logic people make to try to justify this superfluous retcon are bizarre.
Expanding on point 9, in the Republic Commando novels, a CIS scientist tries to create a virus to kill clones specifically (ends up being all humans). I can imagine that a CIS scientist would find out about the chips which would effectively control the entire Republic army. This means that someone has to know about inhibitor chips and contingencies eventually leaking to everyone in the Republic. One could argue that it would have to be hushed up privately by palpatine where he sends a private group to get rid of the scientists and then later execute that team. However, all this means that both "inhibitor chips" or "genetic obedience" is still going to be a risk either way (as seen many clones either discover theirs anyway) so it is a moot point to begin with.
He also acts like brainwashing doesnt exist or at least goes with the black and white options and doesn't seem to take into account real life history/scenarios. Case and point, palpatine rising to power and the correlation with Hitler.
Really? I enjoyed the first video but I flatly disagree with your stance on the chips, I hate them. I always found it more compelling that despite fighting alongside the jedi they'd murder them in cold blood because palpy declared them trators.
And yes, I know, I didnt put much effort into explaining my dislike of the chips as the others, partly because I'm bad at writing, partly because others already did, partly because I never actually engaged with the now legends material, I just didnt like the chips.
The discussion of inhibitor chips and how they fit in to Order 66 got me thinking...
Since I haven't watched the show and probably never will, I have to go off of what I see in the movies. When Cody and the other clones get the hologram figure giving telling them to execute Order 66, it isn't Palpatine; it's Sidious. They all call him "My Lord", same as the Neimoidians in Phantom Menace; not "your excellancy" or "chancellor" like people do with Palpatine. So the idea that Order 66 had to be signed off on by the Senate falls under question, since it seems the clones were interfacing directly with Sidious, which removes the Senate from the equation; it seems that the clones were aware of their fealty to Sidious well before the Jedi tried to capture him. If that's the case, inhibitor chips could just as easily be written out. One could easily explain it as the clones having their morality genetically written out, that they follow orders regardless of how a normal person would react. This theory holds up when you watch only the movies, as the clones don't get put in a moral dilemma that they have to solve themselves. Everything they do can be chalked up to following orders from higher-ups. Removing the chips then removes defective clones, which removes the (seemingly) increasing numbers of Jedi who survived and were operating through the final years of the Empire (Obi-Wan and Yoda seem in agreement that there are only two possible people who can destroy Vader in ESB, Luke and Leia).
For those who liked the show, that's fine. I'm only pointing out something that stuck out to me as I was listening to this video. In my opinion, inhibitor chips were an unnecessary addition that needlessly added a lot of complications, which in turn generated a lot of contradictions, which could have been avoided by sticking to what the Kaminoans said in AOTC...genetically modified to follow orders explicitly. Doesn't take much of a jump to read behavioral engineering. The clones could act like the robots in 'I, Robot', where any life they save is strictly a calculation. And that 'calculation' is only done if it falls within their mission parameters.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, in _The Rise of Dark Vader,_ weren't the clones who refused to obey clone commandos? If they were, it would make sense since they're bred to be more independent thinking than normal clones.
@@Lobsterwithinternet I never read that one, but it would make sense. But again, if we go with the idea above, that also doesn't mean commandos need anything more than advanced training. Really, if morality is the only thing removed, and they follow orders implicitly, does a commando really 'need' more free thinking? Removing those two things leaves them all the freedom in the world to adjust their personal mission parameters as needed, as long as the initial mission mandate was vague enough (Go to the place, rescue the person, rendezvous back at base).
Edit: Or even tell the clone they have mission freedom to operate as needed. Allow them to make those calculations on their own using their unique skills.
I’m sorry but everything you just wrote is nullified if you watched the clone wars. The clones are put in moral situations and after several seasons of getting to know the clones the idea that they all would unquestionably obey order 66 is impossible to believe
I guess what I'm ultimately arguing for is that this show shouldn't have existed, at least not as it was done. The Senate signed off on a clone army, ostensibly without much debate over the morality of mass casualties, because the clones were expendable and quickly replaceable. Essentially, free-thinking droids made of flesh and bone. If they are 'just clones', it's easier to watch them die en-masse. If they have feelings and personalities and personal morality, people would start criticizing the war a lot more than is shown in the movies.
@@rhysnichols8608 Fair enough. But the movies established one thing, and now the cartoon is jumping through hoops trying to have its cake and eat it too
You know what DOES hold up? Star Wars: Clone Wars! You know, the Genndy Tartakovsky animated series that still kicks ass even today.
Yup. The series is often inconsistent, focuses on things that could be skipped and skips things that should be focused on further, often fails to characterize (or in grievous' case actively murders any characterization) characters that are not the main set of clones/jedi has more holes in its plot than the wall behind a stormtrooper's target and fluctuates the power of its force users (or magicians) randomly to each other.
I still do not think this makes it a bad show but it is a flawed show.
It is still fun as heck and as you say all this criticism comes from a place of love and care and not actively trying to slander it. We star wars fans not only feast on what we get, but also what the material we've got implies could happen or would have happened, making our personal headcanons much larger than the canon itself.
I think your 5h long critique (from both parts) is more than fair and speaks volumes of how much you care about the show that we are actively hunting plot holes and misshaps and shedding light onto them. Well done.
I see it as "I love star wars, and I hate seeing people accept this slop as some kind of masterpiece."
Concerning the Chip and especially the Dark Lord Argument here:
The Clones disobeying Order 66 here werent regular Troopers, they were RCs. And RCs just as ARCs were always more free-thinkers than the others! Furthermore, they have big loyalty to their own Squad of Four, meanf if they had to disobey Order 66 they just needed all four of them to agree, instead of an entire Platoon or even a Company. Regular Troopers operate in much larger numbers, meaning even if SOME of them were ethically against Order 66 they would still rather execute it instead of turning against like 15 to 30 of their brothers.
Honestly, you still didnt convince me that the Chip is a better solution. I am actually confused that THIS out of everything is the one thing you are fine with. It feels like a supervillain-plot by Dr. Drakken or something and doesnt work beyond the execution of Order 66! The clones should know what they've done afterwards and somehow justify it with themselves! Otherwise they would know they were controlled, and THAT might cause an even bigger clone-revolt! Another big reason against the chip is, that the GAR not only consisted of clones! There were plenty of Non-Cloned officers. What the hell would they be thinking if the clones suddenly turned on the Jedi?! The entire Officer Corps might fall apart then because they'd feel like they were left in the dark about the order. And last but not least: Order 66 only works if the entire republic would somehow agree with that! The reputation of the Jedi must have been mostly negative at this point already, and this goes for the civilians just as for the army. TCW just did a shit job at setting this breaking point up! otherwise, the chip wouldnt have been nessecary.
Like the whole idea of Order 66 is flawed, and like you said. The whole Republic Army and Navy and everything in it would fall apart and Palps would've had an even bigger problem and a rebellion that is triggered prematurely.
I remember always thinking that the characters remembered the events that happened on Mortis and was always baffled by people trying to tell me that they didn't.
As someone who really enjoyed the Clone Wars growing up, it's kind of depressing to see how the show does hold up in hindsight. I was hesitant to agree, but a lot of the talking points that I didn't consider were explained very well, and I think the inclusion of quotes from the show (like the characters referencing the events of Mortis) were clear and deliberate enough to support the points.
I was in the same boat with watching the show; the first few seasons I saw every episode for during the Cartoon Network run, but after a while I couldn't keep up with it and didn't have streaming to watch it all. I still have not seen most of the Savage Opress episodes, so to hear about all the potential ideas of where his character could have gone but didn't is...frankly disappointing.
Whole-heartedly agree on the villains being weak. 2003 Grievous was awesome to see, emphasizing the CIS' focus on attrition and disposable droids to reduce morale and overwhelm the Jedi. Dooku's "Fear, Surprise, and Intimidation" quote was one of my favorite lines, and seeing how Grievous executed that mantra was always great to see...but the new Clone Wars never really showed that focus of the CIS. Also believed Dooku was too mustache-twirling in new Clone Wars; he egged Anakin on and mocked him in the Prequels, but it always seemed more deliberate and sophisticated than the remarks of the show.
And the technology/Nightsisters stuff...most of those episodes were ones that I missed, and seeing that rundown had me literally twitching. The writers literally put in basically everything possible to end the Clone Wars prematurely and never cared to proofread. That seems like an obscene way to break the Rule of Two if any Sith figured out how to do that...heck, imagine if Dooku teamed up with Talzin and Ventress to kill Palpatine with voodoo magic and run the Republic themselves in the power vacuum.
When you talk about the lack of nuance during the Umbara arc discussion pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on the Bad Batch, the writers are afraid of actually telli g good stories.
I didn't pick it up watching this TCW show as a kid but I am constantly complaining about the writing decisions in BB for basically the same reasons. We could have gotten so much better stories in both shows it's actually kinda sad. I still like and appreciate TCW.
Yeah, like it feels like both shows were being held back.
I am against the Inhibitor chips and hear me out why. The idea that Palpatine would leave something like the clones following order 66 in my opinion is ENTIRELY in character with Palpatine. Its in character because at the end of the day Palpatine is extremely arrogant and prone to making lapses in judgment in both canon and Legends.
I mean to say Palpatines plans literally hang on dumb luck to an extent. For example what if Anakin did listen to Mace Windu and Anakin didnt betray the jedi? Palpatine's plans would have ended right then and there. What if Palpatine would have simply killed luke rather than torturing him with force lightning? Vader wouldnt have been able to betray him(something that also speaks volumes to his arrogance as he literally thought it impossible that Vader would have turned against him leading to his death). Palpatine yet again shows his arrogance by not mobilizing his entire military force and allowing the plans to be leaked for the super death star in Episode 6. The Mandalorian proves that imperial remnants remained as seen by Moff Gideon. Why not assemble the entire army to destroy the rebellion once and for all. Palpatine said he assembled the best troops but even still, that was pretty arrogant to assume the rebels could not win when they have already beaten the odds but a few years prior on Yavin.
I mention these examples among countless others to show that for as smart Palpatine is, he still had immense hubris which ultimately costs him victories or at the very least puts him in extremely dangerous situations where his plans could just as easily fail as they may succeed. The lack of inhibitor chips in my opinion embodies this perfectly. For all of Palpatine's intelligence his own ego and arrogance present metaphorical and literal chinks in his otherwise impenetrable armor.
Not sure if you will see this comment but this is just my take on things.
The Nightsisters from pre-TCW material are cool because they represent a Force user tradition that developed more or less independently of the usual Jedi/Sith conflict that Star Wars focuses on. They're a great way to explore how Jedi (or Sith) characters relate to the Force by introducing a third, alien perspective to compare and contrast with.
Filoni retooled them into actual potions-and-sorcery witches, by extension introducing magical supernatural elements to the Star Wars universe other than the Force (or arguably hyperspace if you want to call that sci-fi conceit a form of magic), which really dilutes the focus on the Force and has catastrophic implications for the rest of the worldbuilding.
Filoni's interpretation of the witches (and things like the world between worlds) are fundamentally not Star Wars because they mean altering the most basic rules of the setting in a way that makes all the drama over midichlorians look inconsequential.
This isn't to say that there's no merit to exploring ideas that add additional fantastical elements to Star Wars - but they don't fit with the way the universe is presented in the OT or PT, and so their place is on the sidelines as spinoff what-if stories.
If Filoni actually asked Lucas about how the Force is actually supposed to work (or more likely *listened* to him), he'd have been able to write them into the lore as literal blood-sucking magic vampires.
Force sensitivity *does* have a biological component, always has since ANH. Hell, Lucas actually wrote the full explanation into the script for TPM(iirc, might have been AOTC) but cut most of it because it was long winded and people weren't receptive to what we ended up getting anyway.
It isn't a stretch to imagine that getting a transfusion from a Force sensitive (midichlorian rich) individual would make the recipient artificially greater in Force ability. The obvious downside is that you're screwing with the natural "symbiosis" of life and the Cosmic Force, so you'd presumably start getting deathly ill without regular feedings. This is absolutely a different path than light or dark, and is already half-supported by Plagueis' story in ROTS. It wouldn't support most of the absolute horseshit they ended up doing, but stuff like necromancy is already part of the canon if you think about the implications of what Plagueis actually accomplished.
Well technically, the new Nightsisters are supposed to be students of the dark side in a way that separates from the Sith. They use it in a way that does not consume them like most would.
From the little I've seen, it appears that Rebels had the same helmet slapping intensity of Kenobi.
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I strongly believe the chips are a terrible idea for the long-term, they remove responsibility from the clones for a literal genocide for one. And fundamentally exist because feloni went to far in humanizing the clones, and he needed to as a result force them to do it, rather then have them do it of their own volition (because it would make them evil all of a sudden). It's actually similar to how Anakin in the show is a completely different person he is in the movies, just without those few and far between moments of darkness Anakin did get in the show. It also ruins the Clones service in the empire in the context of legends, and in canon feloni literally just made the empire entirely phase out the clones from the empire because in Palpatines view they would be less obedient long-term then conscripted conventional soldiers (extremely stupid in my view). I think what you are kinda ignoring here is that the Clones were raised from birth to be soldiers and follow orders, it's all they know. And that means they don't understand morals to well, and only have 3 years in the middle of a war at that, to even attempt to learn about morals free from the constraints of the Kaminoans. In Legends it is made pretty clear that a good portion of clones hated their Jedi commanders, either due to incompetence, or the Jedi just being dicks overall. There is a reason why many people who casually do amoral things usually lack a guiding hand in childhood to teach them why bad things are bad, and before the chips the clones were no different, and more than that they were raised to shoot things without question.
Echo originally not joining the Bad Batch is not true. There have been unfinished TCW episodes featuring Bad Batch on Kashyyyk with Echo among them, albeit with a slightly different design.
One thing I always found ridiculous about the prequel timeline was the fact that the clone wars takes place over only three years. The idea that entire planets could be conquered in that time, never mind whole star systems, is completely absurd. I realize that galactic standard years might be longer than an earth year, but three is still far too short to resolve a conflict on a galactic scale.
I thought it was originally like 7 years minimum and yeah... I refuse to believe everything is that rushed. You're telling me an INTERGALACTIC WAR is resolved faster than the American civil war? I fucking doubt it.
It's because George Lucas isn't a very good writer and felt like he needed to wrap up literally everything in a neat little bow at the end of the Prequels because he doesn't understand that we don't need to see literally everything in the OT set up beforehand.
There's some time between the PT and OT, and I think a good chunk of people can come to the conclusion that some of the stuff we see in the OT happened during those years.
In my opinion, the Clone Wars should have been a series of wars taking place over decades where an outside invading force made up of clones causes men to sign up or be drafted, thus giving a good reason for someone to believe in a strong militaristic Empire in case something like this happens again.
It's also really contrived. I mean, really? Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers share an origin? This is a galaxy of quintillions of beings (365 trillion die in the Yuuzhan Vong war alone) and yet the same handful of like 25 people keep meeting each other or are very nearly related? Come on.
You can have a lot of other stuff be the same (have Darth Sidious be behind the whole thing. Maybe he plants some evidence that the Jedi are behind it instead of just an unrelated assassination attempt for some reason)
Then I might be more emotionally invested because young men would be fighting and dying on screen instead of just two factions made entirely if disposable things made in factories.
Hyper drive is basically instant, and 3 years isn’t that crazy at all. WW2 happened in 6 and they didn’t have speeders or space ships or millions of soldiers lmao
@@sirpepeofhousekek6741that whole comment was cringe, like most people you think you know better when you don’t even have an understanding of what you’re criticizing except is ridiculously obvious here. And, quick question, if George can’t write how did he write the OT? Don’t immediately spew any of the myths about him not making the OT when everyone who worked on it admitted he was the auteur of the whole thing
@@oldylad nah he's right, George has a horrible sense of scaling in both time and size. Are we to believe only a few million clones can take over hundreads of other planets, against billions, later trillions of droids? rofl
Also he meant to wrap up the entire series after TCW, which is another reason people assume why the timeline is so crunche in this show
Bringing back Darth Maul was just such a silly decision even in concept. Even if there was a completely rationale explanation for his survival, it's not like he was a super deep character with a wide connection to many characters. He had, like, a singular line of dialogue and did nothing but fight and stand there menacingly. He was a complete non character who existed just to be a video game style boss. Rocking design, but that easily could have just been given to another member of his species.
Well I thought that was why lol. Because he felt like a wasted character
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69I think there needs to actually be a character concept before there can be a wasted character. Maul literally only had a character design and absolutely nothing else distinguishing him.
@@Jotari Yeah but he was the main antagonist of the movie but amounted to nothing. Basically a wasted character design.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Well he wasn't the main antagonist, he was a toadie, and literally anyone from his race could be given the same characters design. It was not worth what ever ridiculous contrived explanation was necessary to explain the survival of a dude that was cut in half.
@@Jotari Well that's the issue but we know even from Grievous let alone Vader that full body prosthetics are a thing. I wished they showed it or even just mentioned that he mind tricked a worker into giving him medical attention or a ship or something. Hell that would've been the perfect chance to say he had Nightsister magic that kept him alive until he found a body. I don't agree with Sheev treating Vader's return as a bad precedent when the EU brought back Palpatine, Boba Fett, Grievous, and they were even edging audiences about a Darth Maul revival constantly (Force Unleashed being a great example of that). I think that's why Lucas didn't want other creators reviving Maul, because he had his own plans for him. They also constantly brought back their own original characters like Thrawn or Krayt.
13:41 Except that they were known about as well as a list of 150 orders including the infamous Order 65 that would allow the deposition of the Chancellor and more mundane things like Order 4 which dictated what would happen if the Supreme Chancellor went missing or was incapacitated.
14:02 Not if you're the Supreme Chancellor with emergency powers you wouldn't. Not to mention they were already programmed into the Clones before Palpatine was given emergency powers and they were brought in right before the first battle of Geonosis, so I don't think the Senate was going to really look a gift horse in the mouth.
14:22 And why would that be a problem when there's also orders that would allow them to do the same thing to the Chancellor with Order 5? “ In the event of the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) being declared unfit to issue orders, as defined in Section 6 (ii), the chief of defense staff shall assume GAR command and form a strategic cell of senior officers (see page 1173, para 4) until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified. ” - Republic Commando: True Colors, 2007
Not to mention as well that they’ve got a war to deal with and don't have the luxury of denying a ready-made army.
14:30 Because they really don't have anyone with the battle experience to lead an army in a full-scale war since there hasn't been one since the formation of the Republic according to Sio Bibble in TPM.
14:37 Again, the Jedi do not have the numbers or the ability to fight an entire war by themselves. Even Mace Windu admits this in AotC.
15:20 Gotta remember that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord behind the scenes and that he was quite a popular senator even before becoming the Chancellor. So most wouldn't think he would do something like that and just chalk it up with the rest of the orders. And even if he tried it, a random politician wouldn't be a match for 3-4 members of the Jedi Council stroking into his office and arresting him so the Jedi wouldn't be that concerned about him going rogue.
15:50 Sure but even if it was a one-in-a-million chance that the chip would go off early, that's over the entire clone army which on the conservative side would be at least 1.5-2 million clones, meaning it was guaranteed to have at least 2 failures in the entire army with more likely. Meanwhile, the only clones that were able to resist Order 66, as you pointed out in _The Rise of Darth Vader_ were clone commandos who were bred specifically to be much more independent thinking and have more freewill than your standard clone who we don't see refuse to follow Order 66 and even kill their brothers if they refuse to obey.
51:00 I'd probably pin it on George not having the character pinned down and changing his mind up to production. I mean we know from the team behind the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon that that was the reason why General Grevious was different there than in RotS.
To bring up a point about Gennedy Star Wars about Grievous, you did miss the part where while Grievous did ultimately capture Palpatine, Mace Windu crushed his respiratory organs which gave him his signature breathing in Episode 3.
Why is that important?
Because it heavily implies that's why Grievous wasn't the powerhouse he was in Episode 3(and the creators ensured that was the case with Lucas at the time even agreeing to it) and why Obi-Wan ultimately defeated him(Though it was still a hard won fight).
It doesn't explain away all of Grievous' issues in Episode 3 but it explains why he constantly ran away or fought at an advantage until he was forced and still nearly had Obi-Wan dead to rights if it wasn't for a lucky blaster. It's a far and away better than what happened to him in TCW and it's honestly the reason I prefer Gennedy Clone Wars over TCW entirely.
What's even more baffling is that geroge was the one to advocate for making grevious an incompetent bum and actually hated gennedy's portrayal
@@diegodunn-humphrey512Yeah, but he most likely folded because that's how Lucas tends to be. Besides, it's not like TCW makes anymore sense in Movie Canon if you really look at it.
@@diegodunn-humphrey512That is because he didn't have his character down yet and just handed Bendy’s team a few concept pictures and a general description of Grievous. Then later after the first season was already out, George had finalized the character into a mustache-twirling villain and had them change it for the second season.
Yeah agreed. With Episode 3 at least originally there was an explanation that he was weaken prior to the events of the movie and him choking constantly was a recent thing. Which explains why he is so weak compared to how Grievous was in Genndy Clone Wars.
TCW went overboard with Grievous being incompetent and making it so that he always coughed which retconned Gennedy Clone Wars.
@@LobsterwithinternetI remember explaining this to friends that love TCW 2003, but don’t care for Star Wars as a whole. The look on their faces when I said “yeah they got great concept art and the phrase Jedi hunter/Jedi killer”, they did all this work, then George comes back and says “actually he is a coward who runs away”
I just assumed Cut's kids were affected by his DNA in part. The clones DNA makes them age double the speed of a normal person, and we don't know how fast Twi'leks age (although it is likely that it's the same speed as humans). That being said, it still should have been placed later in the war minimum, because at 3 years in the kids could in theory be 6 which appears to be the age they are, but that's thrown out given it's supposed to be the first year of the war. So, thanks Dave for that. Or George
I dunno 3 years is still just as long, because the Prequels were released in a 3-year gap like the originals.
What this show did to Dooku is unforgivable.
Though the EU had a lot of worse takes on his character. Like him being a xenophobic human-supremacist, even though the movies never even hinted at that in any way.
@@luzie3317I admit to a certain unfamiliarity with the source material but I understand that is almost solely the interpretation of his character put forward through the RotS novelization right? There are a number of other stories (see Plagueis and the Dooku character books) that present different views of his characters. Somewhat more nuanced views.
If I had a nickel for every show that Sheev has talked about that had body changing technology that is introduced once and never talked about or used again, I'd have two nickels. Which is not a lot, but it is weird it happened twice.
Response to 14:21.
I like the EU interpretation more, but that’s not what i’m here to interject.
Order 66 is part of the contingency orders in the EU which were disregarding. However, as far as i’m aware, Cannon and legends aren’t in conflict about the issue, so by starwars standard it’s still cannon until new cannon says otherwise.
The contingency orders was a set of orders all clones were to know, and most everyone knew about. the genious of the contingency orders was it was another display of Palpatine’s Manipulations.
A set of orders for every contingency. One of the orders is even the inverse of Order 66 Where the clones would know to forcibly remove The current Chanceler from office. And an additional order to cause them to organize against the senate.
Great way of showing Palpatine’s manipulation ability, because He once again puts it in the hands of others to be able to stop him, but as always he keeps your attention elsewhere, and pressure in other places so you can’t remove him.
As for why I prefer the old way, As you said, both effectively complete the same goal, But one has more risk, and it even does. Yet, I like the psychological implications and pain of the EU more. The clones are loyal to the Republic, not the Jedi, and they’ve been given an order from their high commander, to act against their comrades. Will you be the loyal soldier you should be, to the nation that gives you your whole purpose and point to your existence? Will you side maybe with your friend, or the commander who’s gotten you through thick and thin? Maybe you’ll leave the republic.
I dislike the chips for the removal of the agency, and the intimate writing potential. There is an infinite amount of horror that can be done by the chips. Imagine a book, written solely form Rex’s point of view, when he’s given the order. his body reacts his limbs doing what they aren’t suppose to. But no mater the clone the experience is the same.
Under the EU, Rex never would’ve attacked Ashoka, she gets away clean, and a possible rogue contingent of the 501st know exists. But pull back to the 312th with Aleya Secura. They were only ever sent to outerrim hell holes, like felucia, and because of Secera’s boldness, being willing to operate and throw herself and them into this places, they HATED her guts. They despised her, which is why in the movie they have such a violent and vitriolic scene when the order is given. This also, contrasts very nicely, from BF2 where the 501st detachment only survives due to her, and thought she deserved a gentle end.
Commander Neyo was a sociopathic clone who felt nothing for the men under his command or the jedi, Him just sliding back, and blasting ahis commander as easy as a droid is so coldly cruel.
Commander Bakara was a hard ass, mean, and ruthless clone commander, I would’ve loved for when the Galatic marines to be given order 66 they decided to make a right of proving, where the commander fried to best Ka Adi Mindi to death with their bare hands, showing the grueling intensity of their clone commander.
Now all that said, Logistically, the chips make more sense, and i do agree with. I just think I and most people liked the nuance and grey of the old system.
Commander Cody being the best example in the EU. He and Obiwan were battle buddies, but they had a very professional and neutral relationship, with cody being very by the books. He didn’t want to blast Obi wan, but he has his orders and by military doctrine he needs to follow them.