When I had finished music school, I went to my first jam session run by a wonderful trumpet player in Baldwin- Mel. Davis. I was real nervous. I was invited up and called the tune “Four”. I had my arrangement down. After Mel told me “ you play guitar pretty well, but you now need to learn how to - play music”. Best advice I ever got. Jim and Doug- beautiful melodies on their guitars. ❤❤
This is brilliant. I can't believe that I'm listening to the great Jimmy Raney. He was a master. He was right on the money about Stan Getz' amazing ear. Jimmy was so self-effacing, but a complete master of the guitar. His album, "The Master", has to be one of the best jazz guitar albums ever recorded. Thank you, raneyjr, for sharing these gems of musical wisdom from your father.
I think the point was that transcription and the ear work together. Transcription helps the ear and gives you a model to choose the lines that create the appropriate scales. That scales in themselves don't give you ideas. Scales are sort of a confirming knowledge after the fact, they don't create ideas. Absorbing musical models does.
I think ultimately the point was that he is "speaking in jazz" and the learning process and the absorption of the syntax is best learned by something akin to learning how to speak in a language. Not learning the building blocks of a sentence and trying to speak that way. The rest (like studying language in school) is more like confirming and (perhaps) refining.
Thanks for posting, so important this material is out there as a resource for young musicians. In my 20's i applied way back to get in the the Guitar institute southern Cal accepted never went (oh well). Became a welder instead...always wanted to meet people like Jimmy now I can existentially speaking...thanks Jon
I most certainly will. Anything from your father is worth its weight in gold. He's one of my all-time favorite jazz guitarists together with Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery, and George van Eps. I can't wait to hear and see more from your father.
One has to listen to this video many times so they can soak in the depth of knowledge that Jimmy is talking about.. This is really a wonderful teaching session..
And thanks for this, Jon. I never met your father but when I was Music Director of WRTI-JAZZ90 (1983-1988) we used to play a lot of his recordings. Of all the guitarists, I relate to his phrasing and ideas more than any other greats. He just 'makes sense' :-)
I just stumbled upon this clip--Jimmy speaks from the heart, listening and playing solos of the masters, you'll find your voice regardless of imitation of Parker, Rollins, Getz, etc.
Jimmy Raney is one of the best jazz guitarist in the history ,and there is no doubt about that... his playing can prove whatever he said .... that's the thing.
I’ve been listening to But Beautiful recently and I dug out the Abersold JR solos transcriptions. I respect him even more now I am older. The But Beautiful album is a masterpiece.
What beautiful posts!!! (your father?....thanks for sharing) What a pleasure to hear him talk much less play....super humble/understated like so many of the greats.....the master players who actually went through the long process of discovery themselves....I get bored/tired of the discussion...there's no easy path...just thousands of hours thanks for the inspiration Jimmy!
I took lessons for years because I couldn't get it on my own, but the fact is, the best players are self taught. Trying to play jazz without a good ear is like trying to paint when color blind.
@raneyjr Very well explained...I have been learning how to express myself in the jazz idiom by jamming along with Howard Roberts, George Benson and now Wes Montgomery. for hours on hours at a time....yes I can play the notes that they play up to a point but at some point I am speaking my own sentences aong with them so that it fits.....this way i have integrated the fretboard into my subconscious mind and I dont have to think first and then speak the notes...it just happens automatically..
The point was that scales devoid of a musical process or using your ear doesn't create music. It's really aimed at students who are still in the process of wanting to be at a certain level and failing-- and thinking that tons of scales and theory was the ticket. They can be if you apply them using your ear- which ultimately is guided by other processes not theoretical.
I agree, not to take his lesson the wrong way, of course scales and chords make up everything, but his point is to look at music from an organic, natural intuitive perspective, not simply through the lens of technique. Music is art, not architecture. Playing by ear is far more important than playing from paper.
@paulyrulo1 I agree with you.100%. Wes came from a hugely talented family (musically that is) He used to get told off for playing too loud into the night (by his neighbours)..so he turned it down and used his thumb. He was purely an instinctive player. Also , one of the nicest musicians that ever lived. Lee Ritenour has said that about Wes. I love to hear Jimmy Raney explain himself on this one though. Jimmy was a special musician. Love that album he did with Kenny Burrell.
No one is mentioning accidents. Someone is playing a tune, and you try to play along...either melodically or harmonically. You reach for something, and hit hit a note that says yes, but is almost a start of another melody, but within the key. And you can build on it to a new phrase. But you found it accidentally, by not knowing your fretboard that well yet.
@sctogse1. Accidental discovery can only work when you know your fretboard at a high level. Because If you don't know your fretboard then the accidental discovery would lead to yet another accident. A series of accidents would not likely lead to a coherent listenable offering. The goal is to get beyond the fretboard entirely honestly - this is why he emphasizes the ear as what's important. You are looking inward and making discoveries that way. The only way your ear tells you that the mistake can be made meaningful is to have the type of reflexes and technical skill to quickly rehear what you have just played as something relevant and based on that feature create something new- that is not a mistake.
The point was that knowledge of scales will not necesarily give you good ideas. Having facility can be helped by scales. But really the knowledge of scales should be looked at from a composer's perspective. Everyone learns scales to get the fingers familiar with territories. But the process of truly good improvising has to do with hearing ideas and responding to them with other ideas. If the idea you hear is a scale, fine. If you don't hear it, it's disconnected from the real process
@taildragger53 I think Wes got it right....there are very few guitarists that can speak musically as well as Wes did...his musical vocabulary was limitless and verbose...I love him....god bless his soul.
how did jimmy get his technical knowledge?? when i listen to a jazz chord I try to get into the color of the chord and then play a line to how it best compliments the "color", not the building blocks of the chord.
this is true. you get to a point where you know so many voices of scales and chords that the whole neck becomes a "shape", and when that happens your free to begin making music. stealing licks is also very importing. the use of quoting other melodies and solos shows real study and respect of a song. you need to think of the lyrics drama and passion and placement and how masters have done it. wish he would tell us about some of his licks.
@bitcheznhos Sure they are, but scales should become intuition,if you understand what I mean. When you read a newspaper you don't think of the spelling and letters,they are in the sub-conscious mind ready to use, hope you get the point,greetings Vic.
then you must have transcribed some of your fav bits of music, right? i feel like he is saying that there is no substitute for transcription. when transcribing, it really helps to know that somebody is say back cycling through some 7b5 chords by hearing it than having to figure that out from scratch.
Checkmate, I think. This is Jimmy Raney, folks, telling you how to do it. There are other paths, I suppose, but unless those who espouse them can play as well or better than Jimmy, it's not worth your time to listen to them. The lessons are in the recordings.
I like this sentece about imitating. That's really most natural thing. I thought I won't be original playing patterns or copying everybody. I played scales and arpeggios trying to create my own ideas. In effect it wasn't what I expected. Just poor excercises. Besides it's impossible to create all the time new ideas through II, V I :) Thanks for posting that
Jimmy is absolutely right. It doesn't matter how much theory one knows it won't necessarily make you an emotive player. Playing scales is a cold procedure. They're great to know but the key is imagination. Wes Montgomery never practised scales..he didn't know any theory. He says in an interview i have " I practise TUNES but never practise scales". Can anyone fault him in regards to emotion / imagination?
@bitcheznhos I dont agree with your explanation...this concept will only limit creativity...besides how many times does one play a scale in a tune when improvising??? Not often I think. Scales are good excercises that can be used to enhnace your technical ability....but it is not the basis for creativity and expression...practice tunes and the feelings they convey...that will build your jazz repitoire
@bitcheznhos What I'm trying to explain is that all you're saying here has to be in your mind and fingers,ready to use on command, when you see Am7 it's arpeggio is "a-c-e-g" and Ami dorian,A melodic minor or whatever minor scale you want to use,focus on creativity rather than running scales up and down, Rainy means-think melodic,adapt theoretic knowledge in practice on chord sequences right away.And now I'm going to stop.
"In the last analysis it 's about ears." Pointing to his ear. Yes. No one is thinking "Mother, may I??" relating to scales or modes. Music flies by too fast for that BS.
When I had finished music school, I went to my first jam session run by a wonderful trumpet player in Baldwin- Mel. Davis. I was real nervous. I was invited up and called the tune “Four”. I had my arrangement down. After Mel told me “ you play guitar pretty well, but you now need to learn how to - play music”. Best advice I ever got. Jim and Doug- beautiful melodies on their guitars. ❤❤
bless his soul, miss Jimmy, an Doug, so much. Their legacy is an inspiration.
This is brilliant. I can't believe that I'm listening to the great Jimmy Raney. He was a master. He was right on the money about Stan Getz' amazing ear. Jimmy was so self-effacing, but a complete master of the guitar. His album, "The Master", has to be one of the best jazz guitar albums ever recorded. Thank you, raneyjr, for sharing these gems of musical wisdom from your father.
I think the point was that transcription and the ear work together. Transcription helps the ear and gives you a model to choose the lines that create the appropriate scales. That scales in themselves don't give you ideas. Scales are sort of a confirming knowledge after the fact, they don't create ideas. Absorbing musical models does.
I think ultimately the point was that he is "speaking in jazz" and the learning process and the absorption of the syntax is best learned by something akin to learning how to speak in a language. Not learning the building blocks of a sentence and trying to speak that way. The rest (like studying language in school) is more like confirming and (perhaps) refining.
Thanks for posting, so important this material is out there as a resource for young musicians. In my 20's i applied way back to get in the the Guitar institute southern Cal accepted never went (oh well). Became a welder instead...always wanted to meet people like Jimmy now I can existentially speaking...thanks Jon
I most certainly will. Anything from your father is worth its weight in gold. He's one of my all-time favorite jazz guitarists together with Tal Farlow, Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery, and George van Eps. I can't wait to hear and see more from your father.
my pleasure to share danilo. Keep listening & watching
One has to listen to this video many times so they can soak in the depth of knowledge that Jimmy is talking about.. This is really a wonderful teaching session..
And thanks for this, Jon. I never met your father but when I was Music Director of WRTI-JAZZ90 (1983-1988) we used to play a lot of his recordings. Of all the guitarists, I relate to his phrasing and ideas more than any other greats. He just 'makes sense' :-)
I just stumbled upon this clip--Jimmy speaks from the heart, listening and playing solos of the masters, you'll find your voice regardless of imitation of Parker, Rollins, Getz, etc.
Thank you for posting this, deeply greatful, always humbling to hear what a master thinks.
Jimmy Raney is one of the best jazz guitarist in the history ,and there is no doubt about that... his playing can prove whatever he said .... that's the thing.
I’ve been listening to But Beautiful recently and I dug out the Abersold JR solos transcriptions. I respect him even more now I am older. The But Beautiful album is a masterpiece.
thanks md54. agreed
my old teacher was in the back there, Fred Hamilton.
A great talk on how to play, Jimmy was such a great player.
Word from the Master Jimmy Raney!
Wonderful!!
Hi Jake
Yes. I love this video. More stuff coming..
What beautiful posts!!! (your father?....thanks for sharing) What a pleasure to hear him talk much less play....super humble/understated like so many of the greats.....the master players who actually went through the long process of discovery themselves....I get bored/tired of the discussion...there's no easy path...just thousands of hours thanks for the inspiration Jimmy!
I took lessons for years because I couldn't get it on my own, but the fact is, the best players are self taught. Trying to play jazz without a good ear is like trying to paint when color blind.
listening to a lot of bebop improves the ear a lot, specially when combined with spending time with your instrument
legend. what a guitar player...
@raneyjr Very well explained...I have been learning how to express myself in the jazz idiom by jamming along with Howard Roberts, George Benson and now Wes Montgomery. for hours on hours at a time....yes I can play the notes that they play up to a point but at some point I am speaking my own sentences aong with them so that it fits.....this way i have integrated the fretboard into my subconscious mind and I dont have to think first and then speak the notes...it just happens automatically..
What a genius!
Nice post!
Amen
The point was that scales devoid of a musical process or using your ear doesn't create music. It's really aimed at students who are still in the process of wanting to be at a certain level and failing-- and thinking that tons of scales and theory was the ticket. They can be if you apply them using your ear- which ultimately is guided by other processes not theoretical.
I agree, not to take his lesson the wrong way, of course scales and chords make up everything, but his point is to look at music from an organic, natural intuitive perspective, not simply through the lens of technique. Music is art, not architecture. Playing by ear is far more important than playing from paper.
@paulyrulo1
I agree with you.100%.
Wes came from a hugely talented family (musically that is)
He used to get told off for playing too loud into the night (by his neighbours)..so he turned it down and used his thumb. He was purely an instinctive player.
Also , one of the nicest musicians that ever lived. Lee Ritenour has said that about Wes.
I love to hear Jimmy Raney explain himself on this one though.
Jimmy was a special musician. Love that album he did with Kenny Burrell.
No one is mentioning accidents. Someone is playing a tune, and you try to play along...either melodically or harmonically. You reach for something, and hit hit a note that says yes, but is almost a start of another melody, but within the key. And you can build on it to a new phrase. But you found it accidentally, by not knowing your fretboard that well yet.
@sctogse1. Accidental discovery can only work when you know your fretboard at a high level. Because If you don't know your fretboard then the accidental discovery would lead to yet another accident. A series of accidents would not likely lead to a coherent listenable offering. The goal is to get beyond the fretboard entirely honestly - this is why he emphasizes the ear as what's important. You are looking inward and making discoveries that way. The only way your ear tells you that the mistake can be made meaningful is to have the type of reflexes and technical skill to quickly rehear what you have just played as something relevant and based on that feature create something new- that is not a mistake.
Thanks Jimmy and how is Doug doing?
The point was that knowledge of scales will not necesarily give you good ideas. Having facility can be helped by scales. But really the knowledge of scales should be looked at from a composer's perspective. Everyone learns scales to get the fingers familiar with territories. But the process of truly good improvising has to do with hearing ideas and responding to them with other ideas. If the idea you hear is a scale, fine. If you don't hear it, it's disconnected from the real process
@taildragger53 I think Wes got it right....there are very few guitarists that can speak musically as well as Wes did...his musical vocabulary was limitless and verbose...I love him....god bless his soul.
how did jimmy get his technical knowledge??
when i listen to a jazz chord I try to get into the color of the chord and then play a line to how it best compliments the "color", not the building blocks of the chord.
this is true. you get to a point where you know so many voices of scales and chords that the whole neck becomes a "shape", and when that happens your free to begin making music. stealing licks is also very importing. the use of quoting other melodies and solos shows real study and respect of a song. you need to think of the lyrics drama and passion and placement and how masters have done it. wish he would tell us about some of his licks.
@bitcheznhos Sure they are, but scales should become intuition,if you understand what I mean. When you read a newspaper you don't think of the spelling and letters,they are in the sub-conscious mind ready to use, hope you get the point,greetings Vic.
then you must have transcribed some of your fav bits of music, right? i feel like he is saying that there is no substitute for transcription. when transcribing, it really helps to know that somebody is say back cycling through some 7b5 chords by hearing it than having to figure that out from scratch.
Checkmate, I think. This is Jimmy Raney, folks, telling you how to do it. There are other paths, I suppose, but unless those who espouse them can play as well or better than Jimmy, it's not worth your time to listen to them. The lessons are in the recordings.
All his references are to horn players: Parker, Rollins, Davis, Getz....
I like this sentece about imitating. That's really most natural thing. I thought I won't be original playing patterns or copying everybody. I played scales and arpeggios trying to create my own ideas. In effect it wasn't what I expected. Just poor excercises. Besides it's impossible to create all the time new ideas through II, V I :)
Thanks for posting that
Jimmy is absolutely right.
It doesn't matter how much theory one knows it won't necessarily make you an emotive player.
Playing scales is a cold procedure.
They're great to know but the key is imagination.
Wes Montgomery never practised scales..he didn't know any theory.
He says in an interview i have " I practise TUNES but never practise scales".
Can anyone fault him in regards to emotion / imagination?
@bitcheznhos I dont agree with your explanation...this concept will only limit creativity...besides how many times does one play a scale in a tune when improvising??? Not often I think. Scales are good excercises that can be used to enhnace your technical ability....but it is not the basis for creativity and expression...practice tunes and the feelings they convey...that will build your jazz repitoire
@bitcheznhos What I'm trying to explain is that all you're saying here has to be in your mind and fingers,ready to use on command, when you see Am7 it's arpeggio is "a-c-e-g" and Ami dorian,A melodic minor or whatever minor scale you want to use,focus on creativity rather than running scales up and down, Rainy means-think melodic,adapt theoretic knowledge in practice on chord sequences right away.And now I'm going to stop.
you are missing his point.
"In the last analysis it 's about ears."
Pointing to his ear. Yes. No one is thinking "Mother, may I??" relating to scales or modes. Music flies by too fast for that BS.