ATC Doesn’t Like Delta’s Comment
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2023
- Sometimes what works well for air traffic controllers doesn't work well for pilots. This is a great example of what happens when those two things don't match up.
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ATC here. They won't let us do flight deck training anymore due to "staffing" at both airlines and FAA. I wish I could do more flight deck training and wish they'd bring back the program. It is invaluable experience for us.
SAD! And it's probably one of the best things to do. Nothing beats walking in your neighbors' shoes from time to time!
Since Covid? Or from before that? I know my own position ( not in the air travel industry ) is expected to do some cross-training with other departments that after a year of being there is only now starting tog et done. Tons of stuff to learn about your own job when you see how your instructions are interpreted and implemented or how information is taken from customers.
@@AmurTiger it started with Covid but now they’re just saying “staffing”
I think being in the flight sim would be more useful. Pilots have to do it once a year so there could be ample opportunity.
Don't worry all it'll take is a airline disaster/crash and the ATC - Pilot communication (or lack therof) is blamed before its attended to. Where's the FAA on this ???? Duh !
When Kelsey becomes chief pilot, his first procedural change will be when a pilot comes in for a debrief, he'll offer them a snack first.
The debrief will be, how many snacks are left and why did you have the last one that I liked :)
They will be the worst snacks, like punishment snacks.
@@suegardner that's just cruel.
They’ll be great snack options
Your last meal should be to your wishes.
The execution is next.
@@suegardner
Punishment snacks....😅
Years ago we used to bring pilots in to our ATC simulator and the pilots would be Controllers for the day trying different scenarios, then we would go to their simulators and we would be Pilots for a day. Great program and did we ever learn a lot from each other. Too bad they didn't continue these programs.
We actually did the above scenario just to see how long it took and the steps involved.
I think this is important for many jobs, especially when dealing with public safety. I feel the same about things like police and fire, dispatchers should occasionally do ride alongs when possible, but also police and fire should spend a day in the radio room to understand what is happening on the back end. The more knowledge everyone has all the way around, the more teams can get along.
I work for a class 1 railroad as a freight engineer. We deal with the same kind of time constraints and on the fly changes. Years ago , I and a conductor were able to spend a week at our dispatch center sitting with dispatchers being able to see their side as well as tell them our procedures and road blocks we encounter. It was a great experience and something both sides learned a ton from. I feel like the corporate profits are taking away from these kinds of training programs being available.
Wow, that's the best way to get to know the parameters and unexpected circumstances of any job that is part of a team. IMHO that ATC in this video was out of line and wasted time being snippy.
This would be SUCH a huge learning benefit from both sides. As a pilot, I wonder sometimes if ATC has any clue how much they are hosing us by changing something last second, not understanding the implications and complexity of the changes we have to make, reloading the box, rebriefing things, re-running performance etc. They think they're helping us (giving us a more favorable runway/intersection), but they don't understand that it necessitates a LOT of workload now compressed while we're taxiing and makes things a lot more stressful for us, and often has the FO heads down doing things without the CA being able to back up the changes.
Just like in healthcare…. It’s called “we the owners, don’t care about the employees and our customers. We only care about cost cutting to make more money at our employees expense.” Understaffing in hospitals put patients’ safety and quality care at risk. Healthcare workers at bedside take verbal AND physical abuse from patients and family members. We all have do to something about this! Watching videos like this reminds me of how toxic and unsafe my profession is, and it’s not about my co-employees…. It’s about the “big people” that create the policy and determine the budget.
I've used a radio for most of my adult life for both emergency and non-emergency communications. The one rule in common to every employer and situation was that you don't have fights on an open frequency.
Just like Obama: "after the election I will have more flexibility," sure enough . Putain anexed the Crimea, Ukraine got blankets.
@@Arturo-lapazwhat the hell are you going on about
@@falubii9712 open microphone by the commander in chief, don't you know, there is no higher stupidity. and 'hell' is where he belongs, and you'll end if you leave reality in games you prefer to play.
Nunca deberías a envocar el nombre del infierno.
@@Arturo-lapaz ?
@@sambharr Sorry to confuse everybody. An open microphone is always a bad idea, cuts off vital communication of others, as blancolirio ( Juan) pointed out. And so are pilots fighting with ATC. Or when in Spain their controlers use spanish for convenience, when often merely listening to ATC in a common language (english) important information is 'overheard' reducing the need to verify the position of other traffic etc. Same in la belle France.
I love how the worst thing about the Chief Pilot's office in Kelsey's world is the lack of snacks.
LOL !
i love how you totally didn't get what he actually means: that going to their office is always a serious issue/punishment.
If you get invited to the chief pilots office after a mess up the snacks are gonna be the least of your concerns. You better be ready to hand in your registration letter and snacks won't be on your mind it's gonna be what you are gonna tell your significant other and where or if you'll ever fly commercially for a long time or ever again.
What is it with Kelsey and a lack of snacks?
The only
Snacks are a can of whoopass
I was literally behind that delta plane and remember that exchange. Anyone knows that SFO can do this. And as she said. They say to get things before hand on the ATIS. We do brief this exact scenario as a threat every time and when it happens, we are prepared and ready to go in minimal time. It shocks me how many people say. Oh. We need to get numbers. This happens all the time and is easy to mitigate if you plan it. HOWEVER. Saying that. She was a bit short with them and that was uncalled for. She could have said “it’s 2min. Are you ready to go? No? Ok. No problem. We will just need to get you off the runway then. Taxi via () and let me know when ready”. Boom. Simple as that. Yes it’s annoying for her. I know. But it doesn’t take much effort to just stay professional and save the snappy comments for your coworkers after.
Exactly!!
Her sassiness is seriously uncalled for, she is this close to sound like an ATC in the Soul Plane movie...
There lies the problem, she had to be right, and was going to tell him. He has a plane full of people and doesn't need her harassing him just before go time.
@@trodat07 now there's a flashback. I wish I could fly a plane with hydraulics (the jumping kind) and massive sound system in the cockpit!
@@Nareimooncatt ikr the FAA has no sense of fun.
"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" - great advice, nothing is faster than doing things right the first time.
I'm training to be a tower controller and your videos are super helpful for understanding the pilot's side of all the interactions, so thanks!
Haha, hadn't heard this one before. Great advice indeed!
I whispered this in my gfs ear last night during boom boom, thanks for the advice!
Us humans fully get sayings like that, but and it's a big but, sayings like that will send AI bots into a proverbial tail spin
Phil Dunphy
I work in pharmaceutical manufacturing, and those are words to live by for us.
Hello Kelsey, you are spot on with this. I fly 787 with UA and have been told to brief one runway and departure, SFO is AFU on this, it needs to stop now.
Or how about on arrival changing your approach last minute like its no big deal?
As a student pilot who grabs snacks every time I enter and exit the FBO. The moment Kelsey said “there are no snacks in the chief pilots office” I immediately knew where I don’t want to go 😂
Kelsey is slightly wrong there. When you are "invited" to the Chief Pilot's office you get _tea and biscuts (cookies)._ 😁
As I hope you are now aware that aviation is the most addictive and expensive drug known to mankind. I hope you are thoroughly enjoying your training and flying and I wish you the best with it. Bloody great fun eh! 👍
If I were the Chief Pilot at place Kelsey works. I would set up snacks, put clear cover over. “These reserved for Kelsey “
@@josephking6515-- He is constantly on the hunt for snacks. Even if they _are_ in the Chief Pilot's office, that might not be the most comfortable place to enjoy said snacks.
"No snacks". For 74 Gear, that's equivalent to something bad.
I can't help wondering how Kelsey knows there are no snacks in the Chief Pilot's office? Personal experience?
I love that we get the full snack status at each and every place Kelsey goes! 😂🎉
…or places he avoids. 😛 “Chief pilot wants to see you, Kelsey” “They got snacks?” 😂
His callsign should be Nougat or similar. Lol
Kelsey should start a second channel, 74 Snacks.
@@patrickfreeman20574Eats a pilot eating his way around the world. Mukbang, snack reviews, cooking..ECT.
@@Anna_Xor Kelsey doing mukbang!! 😂🤣😂
As a passenger it sounds like a stressful situation that creates room for human error.
I thought so too. That ATC seemed snarky and bent on jumping on the pilots. I wonder what else she is up to. Perhaps the FAA is watching these?
@@susanKWithAnEshe's trying to maintain separation and got bit for trusting a pilot's estimate...
The pilots said they'd be ready in two minutes so she put them in a position to go... They over ran the estimate and she called out the mistake.
If your ego is so small you can't handle the person on the radio trying to keep you from becoming a hood decoration saying, "you needed longer than two minutes. Get off the runway"... You shouldn't be flying...
Ego is literally part of flight school.
@@lvlintyexcept SHE was the one with the fragile ego. There was no reason for her tone and unprofessionalism. If they needed more time than originally estimated for whatever reason, there is a professional way to instruct them move to clear the runway. She is in the wrong profession. 👎
One more comment from a retired pilot, and SFO based. Prior to pushback, or even on taxi out, confirm, “Which runway can we plan for departure?”, Like you said, it takes a bit to update the FMS, especially when the runway change will wipe out the departure portion of the inputted info, then it takes the two of you to verify the waypoints and fixes along with a review of performance (which may involve a call to dispatch), and a full updated departure briefing. Take your time, safety is first, and schedule is secondary. After all, you will be the first to arrive at the accident site, as opposed to others on the other side of the radio communications…
Chastising a cockpit on an open frequency by the air controller does nothing to advance the safety of flight; even if the air controller is correct. It only adds more pressure to an already complicated issue. The pilots understood this by responding, "Roger." The air controller should be reprimanded for exacerbating the situation by being snarky and combative. She is there to direct flight operation and not argue.
Spot on. ATC is under constant pressure to "move traffic" more and more "efficiently" (read with less and less margins for separation) and expect pilots to play the same game. Pilots do not play that maximization game at all, not their problem. I would be pi** off beyond believe if ATC would issue me an immediate executing runway change for departure. Pilots can't do that they have to recalculate their take off data and enter all that in the FMS. That takes some minutes and if ATC on top of that takes it on that tone that would not end well with me.
Agree, simply childish. I won’t want controllers with an attitude working for me (FAA).
I’ve dealt with a few controllers that were complete arrogant a-holes who should never have been in a tower or on a scope, but then the majority have been amazingly cool headed and accommodating. These bad controllers would make it as a Wal mart greeter. Come one folks, peoples lives are at stake!
Well said 👏🏻👏🏻
You could tell she was just itching to escalate. She should have taken her Midol.
@LawnBunny777 unnecessary escalation of your own - keep it objective and professional as 74Gear does
Pilots used the colloquial "2 minutes" and she took them at that exactly. Both sides can be a little more understanding of the other's issues. If I were an ATC I would avoid arguing with people about to ferry a planeload of humans - just like I avoid "getting into it" with my kids before they drive.
Taught motorcycle safety classes for over a decade. We taught how emotions can negatively affect safety. Kudos to you for that last statement! 👍🏼
A colloquial 2min means "practically no time at all, you'll barely remember this was a hold up". He was wrong to use a colloquial 2min.
You shouldn’t “get into it” with your kids ever. Leave them alone, they know more than you!
@@FilosophicalPharmer Emotions can affect humans a lot. A silly event I experienced, in golf.... The team behind us wanted to overtake us, boiled up and when we let them pass one player was at the boiling point. Entering the green she "gave us a lesson".. and used 10 puts to finish the hole....
Imagine what hot emotions in aviation can cause....
Anyone know this pilots Instagram?
Many years ago I was a police dispatcher in a medium size town. I would often ride with the officers when I was off duty, I can tell you that it really helped me have a perspective of what the officers were doing in the field.
Smart!
When I hear this kind of exchange, where hundreds of lives are on the line and radio traffic gets petty and juvenile, I am shocked we don't have more crashes.
Just read a NY Times article on the hundreds of commercial airline near "hits" ( a better term than near misses) per year in the USA caused mainly by Pilot and/or ATC fatigue due to their demanding work schedules. Other big issue is ATC's are talking much faster than decades ago due to increasing volume of traffic, and not enough ATC resourses. President Regan's union busting might have contributed to today's ATC resourse issues, both directly and indirectly.
@wtcashel OMG I totally agree!! I can barely understand what they are saying
@@wtcashel PATCO got exactly what they deserved. The schoolyard bully got beaten up, finally. And I would think that something that happened over 40 years ago would be irrelevant to this or any other incident. Nice try with the politics.
@@Sartre_Existentialist I thought it was just me struggling with speed of the instructions!
@@jwill3856 IKR It's absolutely awful and I have no idea how they keep crashes from happening. I would be asking for repeats all day long
My company had three violations out of DFW earlier this year for a similar circumstance.
Last minute runway and SID change. The crews loaded and ran our runway change procedure, but missed an Altitude constraint for the new SID that was buried in the NOTAMS.
Last minute changes are definitely a threat and have proven so many times!
Wow, that's actually very scary. What i don't understand is why they'll have notams like that, somtimes for over a year, instead of just updating the SID itself? And it's not just SIDs, but other procedures as well.
What about the notams over a year old that are still in effect which change the MAP because a VOR is OTS and the notam specifies some completely different MAP and hold. Why not just change the approach plate to show this!?!?
But they won't do anything about it until there's a crash, a bunch of people die, and the NTSB specifically calls out the FAA's practice as the cause.
@@moi01887 What's the point of all charts and plates being "updated" every 56 days, when they're actually not? I could literally open a SID, STAR, or appr plate in Adobe Pro DC and make the change myself in 5 minutes. One person doing this 40 hrs a week could likely handle the updates. Instead we have 10 pages of notams to sift through on every flight. Am i missing something here?
Your union needs to bring this up to ATC and company
What impresses me most about aviation is how they all understand each other while eating their microphone 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣....tastes like chicken
It's an acquired skill lol
I guess the mic actually contacting ur larynx is proximity
I've been watching these videos for years now and I'm no closer to understanding a damn thing they are saying. I guess I can never be a pilot OR an ATC.
You and the Mentour channel often mention pre-takeoff and pre-landing briefings. It would be very interesting if you could recreate a typical briefing of each type. It would provide a lot more detail about pilots' responsibilities and preparation as well as the illustrate the complexity of commercial aviation. And, since I'm sure you do them so often you could do these briefings in your sleep, it would make for a really fast and easy week's video and that would give you more time to hunt up some snacks.
As a Widebody CA I enjoy having a third crewmember and sometimes a fourth. These extra sets of eyes are invaluable. But even with that extra safety, I would not have moved onto the runway before being fully ready. Something happens when crossing the line onto the runway, my brain goes in the takeoff/reject mode. So dealing with a new runway/route/altitude/engine failure procedure at this time is out of sequence and I am very prone to make mistakes. It takes me out of my zone at the worst possible time.
I don't worry about the controllers' attitude. (based in NYC you have to have a thick skin. LOL) I worry about what is good for my crew/passengers and I never, ever rush and do not succombe to ATC's pressure. I am not combative toward controllers (they do an incredible job to keep us safe) and I try to help them whenever I can but I don't let them make their problems my problems.
In that case, the controller put herself into a pickle by letting them line up and wait and tried to blame the crew when it backfired and the crew's mistake was to try to help her. "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" is the key to be safe in aviation and should be part of every briefing. Sorry I did not intend to write something this long.
Beautiful response…clear explanation. Logical.
Very well said
That very hard timeline, can easily create a stress that will slow you down, just when you come to be in a hurry.. 😳
Most Excellent response! Adult like, professional, safe, and controlled. Thank you Sir!
100% Im with you, I’m good sitting outside of the runway environment. If she doesn’t like it, we can taxi somewhere we aren’t being rushed through our process.
From my early cfi years, a TRACON supervisor came in to give a speech and I remember he said: Never let a controller, rush you, tell you how to fly the airplane or be rude. They are government employees.
I love how balanced Kelsey is when he deals with something like this. Not just blaming one side or the other but looking at what both sides could have done better.
It is this type of balance that helps me feel much better about flying. I believe this type of communication should be an ongoing required course in school. Solving issues without blame, and finding snacks! What could be better?
Bad decision by controller
... period.
If I was Delta pilot, I'd call when I got on ground and complain about that scenario..she needs to be called out
..
@@greggersism The pilot played tea parties with his "2min" claim but it's the ATC s fault? Figures. Nevermind the lives on board his craft. Maybe he should go work at a bakery and make cupcakes instead.
@@greggersism You think like Kelsey said, ATC set the pilots up for failure there?
To balanced
Yeah, that local controller at KSFO was snarky. I've flown in/out of San Francisco a lot, and departing 28L while arrivals use 28R is commonplace. Also, yes, the Delta crew (hindsight) should have held short of 28R while re-loading the takeoff data. After all, we DO get paid by the minute!! The controller was a little too eager to "push the tin" that day.
Agree. Both parties work under stress.
Yes... that ATC seemed like she was just itching to pop off.
@@ariochiv I got that feeling too. She tested him knowing it was probably an edgy thing to do. She must have been having a bad day. She also needs to be reminded there are probably 150 souls on board and that playing "challenge-you" while they innocently sit in their seats is not a good idea. As has been said in other posts here, it would help if both sides were required to walk a mile in the other's shoes, every so often. I would side with the F/O here. He was trying his best to keep the show moving while taking pressure from his capt. and her. And she should have known how touchy an FMS keyboard can get -- if she'd ever been in an airliner cockpit. That "oooh" sounded like she won an argument in a neighborhood bar.
I worked 40 years for a major railroad. Our Dispatchers were required to ride a train every quarter to get familiar with the territory they were responsible for, and to see firsthand what the crews experience during their run across the tracks.
Some of these Dispatcher's were very good at their jobs because of this. If they told you in 59 minutes you'll see a headlight of another train, in 59 minutes it would happen.
As a former controller, I always sat up front on a FAM trip, but as you mention in 29.5 years, i had exactly Two pilots come and "plug in with me" at the center to see how the other side works. TWO! in 29 years.
To be fair, who wants to go to a boring ass center?
Love Kelsey calling out the "teamwork" aspect of the Flight Crew and ATC. ATC's voice did not sound like a teammate.
SFO Tower has been bad at their job and unprofessional on frequency for years. Have heard multiple recordings of what sounds like this controller in particular, as well. This is not the first time and unfortunately won't be the last. They need to get it together over there, it's simply unacceptable and will lead to an incident or accident one of these days.
"How DARE you question my edicts, peon!" Nope, not a teammate.
There's no particular reason why the airport would be any different from the rest of the city. They have a very high opinion of themselves.
@@DaWolf805 Girlboss nonsense from ATC is gonna get people killed. Expect this to get worse before better.
She sounded like a teammate that trusted their teammates when those teammates gave an estimate on how long a task would take.
Her mistake was trusting the “teammates” on their word.
"you're out of time. Get off the runway"
Pilots got defensive when they got called out for their mistake on the estimate.
One minor point that you didn't bring up is that it's typically the first officer handling the radios and programming the FMS on the ground while the captain taxis. So the first few calls you hear are the FO, and he's the one saying they need "2 minutes", which obviously turned out to be an underestimation. He probably thought he could do it in that time. I'm guessing that the captain intervened at some point, told him to slow down and that they'd take off when they were ready. I've had that happen. When you hear "more than 30 seconds for a runway change, please", that is now the captain interjecting. Different voice, and since it was the FO before, it can only be the captain. So he's now taxiing and simultaneously arguing with the controller, which isn't a great idea but also just illustrates the power dynamic a little bit. The FO obviously didn't want to get into it with the controller and seemed to be trying to do what she wanted; the captain doesn't seem quite as inhibited.
Or the numbers didn't come back that fast. Or at all. Now 2 eyes need to be looking at the FMS and see why things aren't jiving.
@@artheriford Honestly, they really should have had numbers for both runways. I've done this same takeoff with the same note in the ATIS. Everything Kelsey says is correct about taking the time to get the numbers in and verify everything, but you check the ATIS at the gate and if it says request both sets of numbers, that's the time to request both sets of numbers. You're not doing anything else at that time. So if they didn't do that, that actually is on the pilots. I was assuming in my comments that they had done what they were supposed to do and it was just taking them the normal amount of time to verify everything and run the departure changes checklist.
@@ModernClassic I guarantee 100% that they had the numbers for EVERY departure runway at the airport. Delta prints them ALL before the push. The issue isn't getting the numbers, it's getting the numbers plugged in, and the runway, and the departure, and checking the waypoints, and deleting the discontinuities, and checking obstacle clearance, and engine out specifics.....
@@howesfull8 I'm an A320 pilot. It sounds like you're thinking of the TLR report, which is not the same as "the numbers" we're talking about here. Those numbers need to be calculated for each runway based on real-time information provided by the pilots, the gate agent and airport ops. At least in the A320, we can't even request the numbers for more than two runways at a time. Sure, we could do separate requests, but then our uplink isn't going to work correctly and there's a higher likelihood of making a mistake in entering them manually. It would at the very least actually slow us down. Also, it takes time to get the numbers - usually about ten minutes, so we're not requesting them for runways we know we won't use. At most airports, there's also just no point in having the numbers for every runway; airports in the US typically only use a maximum of two for takeoff at a time.
Getting the numbers "plugged in" is literally a matter of pressing one button (it's labeled "insert uplink"). There's no reason there'd be any discontinuities because you're not changing departures, only runways. Checking obstacle clearance isn't something we normally do in VFR conditions on a company and FAA-approved departure.
What we do have to do is a departure changes checklist, followed by the "below the line" portion of the before takeoff checklist (or all of it, depending on what actual changes we've made). That isn't actually a lot, but it could easily take somewhere between 2-5 minutes, which is what it sounds like these pilots needed. It's also something that a first officer with a lot of confidence could think he could do a little quicker. At my airline, it's literally about 10 total items to do between both checklists. But you do need to not rush through them, which I'll bet this FO's captain told him during the process.
@@janeryan2709 I would, because I'm a pilot and that's how it typically works on the ground. The captain taxis, FO works the radios.
She needs to remember that she is an important part of a team .
Her energy tells me she thinks she is an individual that is in charge of herself and others.
Teamwork makes the dream work ❤
NTSB has a new procedure in progress: female ATC has to declare if they are on their period or not at the end of any radio call. example: 'delta 2904 runway 28 line up and wait not on my period'
Right...no need to make matters worse... People need to diffuse...not ignite attitudes....especially when there are 100 + souls onboard
@@JK-dv3qeyou actually said that? males - ed, low T? 😳😂
@@JK-dv3qe And then reciprocate , the female pilot must declare, I'm on my period and we're proceeding into runway 28! Male pilot : I've got too much estrogen , can we pick up the pace here!
@@chairlesnicol672 as long as it is not runway 69 -> it's fine
I like the idea of "being a good teammate". It's a good reminder that you're good work is because of others and not to forget that
Retired FAA. I am 100% with you on this one. That controller had a "tude" problem. Mike time is precious. Don't waste it with a snarky attitude. On an aside, few things disgust
me more than controllers who particicipate in the SF160 program to ride along and then sit in the cabin, unless the captain ask's you to. You're there to LEARN, not for free
transportation.
Agreed. Lack of preparation of the SFO female controller's part, does not constitute an emergency on the pilot's part.
actually "pre boomer" by 1yr@@djjuicyfruit
@@geezerhull they call people born in 1990 boomers. Just pretend they don't exist. They may as well not.
actually the boomers are the ones born aprx 9 months after the soldiers came home after WW2. As to the" may as well not exist" part, can't say I disagree with you there. We're pretty much obsolete now. @@nickaschenbecker9882
@@TheValiantZero Why did you specify that the controller was a woman? How was that relevant?
Note to self: in similar case,don't be afraid to say "unable"
this kind of atc would have punished them from doing so and delayed the hell out of the flight
Pilots, when ATC changes the plan at the last minute double your needed time to adjust for that change.
The pilot: a very mature "roger"
Kelsey: I'll cover that rant for you!
While I was stationed at Grissom AFB, one day a helicopter requested takeoff clearance from the parking ramp. The helicopter just wanted to go straight up. ATC denied the clearance and advised them to taxi to the end of runway for takeoff. The copter crew did taxi to the runway, got their clearance, then flew straight down the runway, stopped, then went straight up.
Helicopters "taxi"? Some of them just have skis. That being said, "just going straight up" could put a helicopter in the path of some fixed wing aircraft, couldn't it?
😮
@@JimMork I sit and watch my local field (in the UK) and all the Heli's I watch will hover a little off the ground and taxi to the runway like that, then they climb forward and up following runway heading. I'm not sure what the view is like in a heli, but I assume like in a fixed-wing you can't see what's directly above you.
@@not-alot-of-options A different meaning of "taxi" with no wheels involved. But every aircraft has to do "the dance" as choreographed to keep all parties safe, would be my interpretation. Same with these GA pilots in major airports. "Just fit in".
What was the timeframe for your time at Grissom?
Great point about ATC needing to spend more time away from their desks and on the flight deck so instances such as this are minimized. When I worked as a trauma ER nurse, we had to take call and ride along with the paramedic EMTs for 24 hours every year in order to maintain our trauma certification. This went a long way to develop and maintain very good working relationships between two different entities that needed to work seamlessly together in order to be the most effective.
ATC doesn't have a desk and we don't have the opportunity to FAM anymore, which is a shame.
As Travis said, not to mention they took it aways for almost ten years after 9/11 too and when it was brought back then, it was very limited and difficult to use.
9/11 brought that training for controllers to a stop. It became so difficult when they restarted it that most don’t do it anymore.
FAM is available now. It’s Not that difficult to use… you just can’t scam extra days off like the good ol days.
@@djborcalli1020 now all one needs is the ability to not be needed fir staffing requirements at the facility!
Here’s how I think the breakdown occurred:
ATC: get on the runway, traffic is 5 minutes out
Pilot: ok, we need 2 minutes
ATC: you have 5 minutes
Pilot (not on radio), cool, we need 2 and have 5 to get outta here, we can take our time and do it right
So the breakdown occurred when ATC said they have 5 minutes (meaning: inbound traffic landing in 5, so you have to hurry), but what the pilot heard was “we have way more time than we need as we don’t have to clear the runway for 5 minutes”
In other words, ATC was clear and explicit initially, but on follow up made ambiguous statements that were clear in context to her, but likely interpreted as a clarification by the pilots.
plus she initailly said 2, ummmm 10. So this conversation stated with them having 10min and then like 60 seconds later she shortened it to 5. She's dangerous.
Looks like SFO. My few experiences at the airport have been very busy and hectic. It’s very common to have a runaway change on final. (Which is not fun at all). Had an experience there where we have had to go around due to one of these last second changes. Another aircraft taxied on the runway we were cleared to land. My biggest takeaways were that SFOs design as an airport are “interesting” at best. It’s also a major hub where there are many different world airlines there. They obviously have new controllers and airlines have new pilots with limited experience. Then you take away training from ATC, it’s a recipe for safety issues. Then there are human reaction issues as by the transcript Captain K is going over. But at the end of the day - the people on the flight deck have the responsibility to speak up and be safe. BREIF THOSE THREATS BABY!
I was on a Delta flight that had to change runway at the last minute, due to weather. Pilot came on, explained that it was going to take several minutes to input the new information. We took off about 10 minutes late, but SO WHAT? We arrived at our destination safely. Thank god for the pilot. And I love Delta!
Understandable but you being in the back of the plane don't have pressure on you. We as both pilots and controllers are constantly pressured to streamline traffic and get things moving. It's the industry, nobody likes delays but we can only do so much. Think if 20 planes all had a runway change for weather, all 20 planes need that 10 minutes to change the information in the plane?? Now we are talking massive delays because they can't all takeoff at the same time. I'm not defending her actions here but its just the business of aviation, constant pressure to be as efficient as possible and keep things moving.
The real problem is this is at SFO. The way the airport is designed because of the proximity to the city makes it complicated for both controllers and pilots. makes all parties in a hurry because there are so many aircraft waiting to get out of there.
Then hire more ATC and train em up. And pay the max. What a hell job
@@peterfuchs4596 good luck with that
@@peterfuchs4596 Imagine thinking that fixing an airport is that simple.
A madhouse. Need to build island airport like the Japanese have done.
@@peterfuchs4596unfortunately not everyone is capable of handling that job in a safe manner and it is high stress
Thank you for explaining this! I listened to this banter back and forth on a different podcast and was completely dumbfounded and you're remarkably concerned if I were a client! I do hope the situation can be addressed and logically remediated for the interest of everybody's health and safety, physically and mentally!
That incident isn't the only time she's been rude and caused issues. She caused 2 go arounds about 2 months ago then didn't accept responsibility for them.
What’s being done to discipline her? Any info on who she is?
@@jestofreestone1 Regardless of their behavior, don't request personal information to be posted on youtube. The controller might not be the right person for the job, but this is not the forum for reconciliation of said behaviors.
@@DillonGauthier🤓
She was not rude at all, she responded to a foolish comment by the pilots trying to shift blame.
If you believe you can support this with facts, then please do so.
Just an occasional flyer but I LOVE your channel as an educational tool to learn what goes on at the airport/plane. THANK YOU!
Kelsey probably knows he is convincing some of us not to fly. I don't like hearing pilots are having trouble.
Kelsey, this is a very relevant and detailed explanation of the complexity of operating an aircraft safely. Thank you. I am retired from the airlines now, but have had this happen to me a number of times there at SFO and many other airports. What is even more complex, demanding and time constraining for us "human pilots" is a change or a portion of a change to a published arrival route at the last minutes of perhaps a very long flight when you are likely fatigued and are not performing the necessary critical array of tasks at your best. For the most part, both pilots should be "heads up" looking outside for traffic at this time and not pushing buttons into a box and crunching numbers. I have always wondered why the FAA does not recognize, address and severely limit this practice as a priority because I feel that it would really increase overall safety. Of course, it would also increase delays and reduce airport peak capacities as well.
Not sure how long you have been retired, but we are required to stop the aircraft and set the brake for "high task loading situations" like this. In fact our ops specs states that the parking brake must be set and an additional departure plan checklist is run to verify changes were made correctly and briefed. I would not have accepted the take off clearance here after the change.
@@chrisstromberg6527 Can't set the parking brake while in the air.
Having seen so many videos of situations pilots have to deal with (lost of a part of the fuselage, exploding engine, etc) seems like last minute changes might be down the list. At least there are known ways to properly handle it.
@@chrisstromberg6527 Given that the comment was talking about last-minute arrival procedure changes, this wouldn't be relevant since you can't stop the aircraft and set the brakes when it's already in flight.
@@chrisstromberg6527 I have been retired for almost 3 years. Yes, sometimes we did set the brake to complete the tasks, but it was not dictated in our manual but was at pilots discretion. The difficulty it causes for ATC even though it pales in importance is that there is often no place to stop and set the brake and doing so will cause more delays than it would if ATC was just inconvenienced and just approved the original runway. Of course...not possible to stop in the air and delaying vectors or a hold can ball things up as well. There is the pressure to "get it done" fast and without error, and almost always we are successful but we are human and mistakes will continue to happen as long as ATC is allowed to continue this practice that helps them cope with high volumes of departures and arrivals.
As a pilot that flies out of SFO you know to always run numbers for both runways.
I fly out of SFO 6 times a month on average.. We always do that at our airline but to plug the numbers in, verify and do the runway change checklist. Takes more than 2 min…. Delta should have told the controllers they will hold short, and SFO controllers need to get their crap together. Controllers are not in control of the pilots and planes.
European commercial pilot here; serious question: Don't you get a departure clearance before you push-back in the US, be it via DCL or voice? Because we always get a departure SID, squawk & RWY at the latest 5 minutes before push-back. Then, if there is a runway change, the controller has to double check with us and ask if it's possible. Again, I'm unfamiliar with the SOPs in the US, so any clarification is welcome ;)
Bit late but yes, it’s the same in the U.S. and it’s highly unusual for runway changes in the last few moments.
Pilots have to remember they can always use the magic word: "Unable." The PIC can refuse any ATC clearance or instruction they deem unsafe.
Well said.
You actually cant.
In this case the controller gave them the option to hold short 28R while they got set up, but instead they took the lineup and wait and told her 2 min was what they needed. Controller could have done without the attitude but she wasn't in the wrong.
@@pilsplease7561 You can. ATC has made erroneous or dangerous calls before. My dad, who flew for Northwest (and then Delta) for 30 years, had moments where ATC tried to route him through dangerous weather or to land on an active runway with a departing aircraft that was too close for comfort. He told me he told them “unable” and that if they got angry or had an issue with it, he would threaten to declare an emergency so they could take it up with the FAA / NTSB.
True that could get them sent to the back of the line for takeoff. Obviously the safer choice, but the controller was ready to send the other aircraft around if Delta couldn't depart or vacate.
That meeting with the Chief Pilot with no snacks, reminds me of:
"The phrase interview without coffee is a British-Army euphemism for a severe reprimand by a senior officer. It has come to also denote, by extension, any ‘dressing-down’."
I love the videos, when I first started watching you a little over a year ago I didn’t know anything about aviation and now I have become obsessed thanks to you. Love the videos can’t wait to watch more!
When I used to work EMS we had a situation where all the nurses in the emergency room where we transported patients was always raisein hell because the patients were not showered and cleaned up when we bought them in after cutting them out of cars in canals and whatever it might be and it was horrible with them not having any idea what it was like out there in the real world. One of the best things that ever happened to us as we got a new medical director and he knew what it was like out there cuz he had worked on an ambulance in his younger days and the first thing he did when he took over as medical director is he put a requirement to every nurse that worked in that emergency room had to run a couple of shifts on an ambulance with us and that changed the whole tone of everything. And that's kind of exactly what you're saying about air traffic controllers actually being in the cockpit and seeing what it's like. Maybe a dumb comparison but pretty much the same thing.
I truly hope some of the SFO tower controllers see this debrief. As a pilot who flies in there there seems to be a lot of procedures that need “adjusting” and there seems to be very little coordination between approach and tower often which causes a lot of go arounds and traffic issues. Thanks for another great video Kelsey!
For some context. When this happened 1L/19R and 1R/19L were closed for repairs for about a week meaning all traffic that regularly fills up 4 runways had to be crammed onto 2. The ATIS stated to brief both 28L and 28R due to flexibility being needed to keep flights on time.
Close half the airport during busy season? Who made that decision?
@@rcbaker2 Somebody who had no choice. Weather often closes two runways at SFO because they are too close together so parallel arrivals and departures can't be allowed, so it's not unusual to cram the traffic through half the runways, but it does cause delays. This is also why I prefer the other Bay Area airports, OAK never has traffic problems. Even when the main runway is closed there are still two north field runways. The two occasions when the main runway was closed when I was home were due to emergency repairs. On the first occasion I got a stream of SWA 737s over my house going around because the cloud base was right on 200 feet. On the second it was a clear night and the nightly FedEx MD11 stream looked like they were almost on my roof. Sad to have moved from Alameda.
@@rcbaker2 sometimes you don't get to schedule repairs around your convenience. Even if it is not an emergency repair, runway repairs scheduling is weather dependant.
Yeah but even if you brief both runways, depending which runway is in the “BOX”, you have to verify the points in the flight plan. When you change the runways in the FMC, you then have to re-verify the sequence in the FMC, then verify the takeoff numbers loaded, then do a “Runway Change” checklist.. takes a few minutes. ATC doesn’t get it here.. she’s wrong here.
You still need time to change both navigation and performance 8n the computers. ATC gives you a runway on the initial taxi clearance that you put in the box. If the departure is runway specific, changes need to be made. ATC here was unprofessional. The pilots should have held short, but allowed themselves to be talked into going in position. Both made mistakes.
I could not agree with you more in your assessments. You words were my thoughts exactly. You are very impressive and I would feel so safe with you as my pilot. Some airline is lucky to have you!
I was taught to never enter onto the runway until you're ready to go. One should assume that something will go wrong entering numbers or that any other prep/runup will take longer than anticipated. Rushing also increases the probability of errors. I agree, the whole thing could have been avoided by holding short, and in the end they would have gotten off sooner.
I agree. I'm not a pilot by any means, but my intuition would tell me not to be on the runway until I'm absolutely 100 percent ready to take-off.
@@Watchdog_McCoy_5.7x28 It transfers to a lot of situations. The pattern seems to be "do not allocate and block resources and then fail while holding and blocking those resources and therefore causing unnecessary delays".
Yep, get-there-itis is also a major problem on the ground and this is a clear example of what not to do when you are behind the controls.
Or...haste makes waste @@statinskill
@@garypudup2109 Nowhere did I ever say make haste. I said don't fail while you're holding resources. At most, I should amend that with "and the failure was preventable and your fault".
Kelsey I absolutely love and appreciate the perspective you gave here. I was on this flight and it felt really odd to line up and wait and then exit the runway only to have a E175 land behind us just after we cleared the runway. As a px on this Delta flight, I'm very thankful they didn't just "smash the numbers" but do wish they would have been realistic and just held short when given that option. Reminds me of something the guys on Opposing Bases always say, never be afraid to say "Unable". That said, this controller tried to run a squeeze play that was probably ill advised and got frustrated when it didn't work out and she took it out on the Delta pilots. That was not necessary nor professional. Ultimately, I'm just glad everyone stayed safe in all this and other than maybe a loss of separation, there was no real problem. As always thanks for all you do!!
Two wrongs don't make a right. One common thread that runs through these ATC vs PIC is both of them are forgetting the fact there are people buckled-in behind them implicitly trusting them to act with the passenger's best interest in mind not theirs, in this example both were wrong and we as passengers are trusting both of them to be right.
Does anybody really care ? Least of all San Francisco or the FAA. !
It's not the place for an argument, but the crew has to do what the crew has to do. And sometimes inputting and re-briefing might take more time due to the complexity of the new departure, the new performance, the different emergencies... . But the ATC lady might have had extra stress due to unknown occurrences...
True. But I realize that if anything horrible happens, ONLY the pilot is at risk. The ATC goes home at the end of the day.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.
@@jomatton8900 Maybe they're married?
I'd love to see a video or simulation of all the things a pilot needs to do in preparation for takeoff (safety inspections, inputting numbers, seeing who does what). I'm in awe of all that goes into a safe flight.
You can check out some of the videos that JustPlanes has on preflight preparations. There are several from different airframes, airlines, and countries. Sadly, there are hardly any in the US because of the FAA, but these practices are generally the same universally.
Kelsey I am glad that you have this channel. For some time now I view you often. If people have jobs that being distracted can be life or death all need to do better than what happened here. Your eval of this make it clear on what should have happened. I am not a pilot but have a job that has many of the same type of problem as you do. School bus drive. Learning how to RESET is so important after being distracted. Thank you so much.
Pilot_kelsey 👈
My TeIe_gran ^^up^^
I would like to hear the cockpit conversations during this time
This translates into so many different jobs. I am a technician and go to various places to repair equipment. Our dispatcher does a poor job of lining up the repair jobs, as she gives them to us as they come in. You would think that would be great, but say, you finished a job and call for your next dispatch. She gives you across town, which can take a bit time wise to get to. Then you call that one in complete, and she will give you a job that was right next to the job you finished previously. So, back across town ya go. I mention things like that, and it goes in one ear and out the next. Its like, okay. I get paid by the hour. Just shake your head. Im retired Navy, and I like to do things methodical and logical. This aint it, lol.
Yeah in that case you HAVE to shake your head and laugh or else you'll go crazy trying to change the system. Sometimes it's just not worth the stress of trying to convince people that there is a better way to do things. I'm just a cog in the wheel, man.
But being retired military, you likely have lots of practice with this mindset.
@@toddsmith8608 no this business has its own mindset. Anyone from the outside would be like “what the heck are they thinking “. I like the job/work I do, not necessarily the way they go about it lol
Good afternoon sir, I really enjoy the content of your clips. I find them to be very informative and even funny at times. Don't stop doing what you do.
i just found this channel yesterday and i dont even fly but i am absolutely engrossed in these videos man!
Am I the only one who remembers multiple incidents with this SFO controller? I specifically remember her asking an emergency aircraft if they could maintain visual separation instead of prioritizing them, and I believe I remember her arguing with pilots before, regardless of who was in the wrong.
I think those are on VAS Aviation channel.
@@gatolibero8329 I think 74 gear has also covered some of them.
She should be flippin’ burgers at slappo ‘s !
Kelsey, we nurses have exactly, like you, proper procedures that must be followed and I have Never, in all my years have an admin spend the day or one OR case start -to-finish watch what our day is like. I fully agree and understand what you're saying!!
Pilot_kelsey 👈
My TeIe_gran ^^up^^
You might want to clarify that to mean the non medical administration who run the office in regard to financial decisions. I have been an RN for 26 yrs, and I have been an acting administrator and Director. I not only have spent plenty of time on the floor in general in day to day work as part of my job, but I also covered many shifts when nurses inevitably called in for their shifts. Which floor nurses did. A lot. I spent a lot of my time in my administrative nursing roles assisting the floor nurses so they weren't overwhelmed. I was always on call. I couldn't simply go home and be off, and I couldn't say no to a shift if someone called in. Plus, I had the paperwork that was due from the admin above me. I was in charge of making sure that all of the policies and procedures were enforced, and I got in trouble if they weren't. I have CRPS, which is extremely painful, and I ended up working 18 hours on the floor one day because two nurses called in. I finally had to step down. I may as well just work the floor for 8 hours and be able to say no to extra hours. Not everyone in administration is ignorant of the nurse's plight.
Delta Passenger here, I very much enjoy your videos. It helps me better understand the flying world as it relates to my place in the back of the airplane. I only hope the folks on the two other ends of this situation watch videos like this to better understand we are ALL in the same situation. Teamwork we are in this together. Be polite, considerate and kind. It make for a smoother ride thru life.
Totally agree with you. Planning for two possible and very similar situations simultaneously sounds like an easy way to get things confused and make a mistake.
I would have chose to hold short of 28R myself, no one needs to rush the process of changing the SID, she’s just trying to keep things moving. 👌🏼
Best advise I ever recievedt was from a well seasoned Alaskan Bush pilot with regard to ATC Always be present at your own hearing
In the graphic of the airport diagram there is a mistake. What's labeled as W is supposed to be C2. It may be confusing to viewers to hear the instruction to turn off at C2, when it isn't on the diagram.
As the pilot, if you know that that "2 minutes" MAY be a rush, say that you prefer to hold short.
The airlines themselves are probably applying pressure to get your planes off the ground sooner than later. I work with trains and I can tell you there are rules that they want you to follow or be punished. But there are situations that are creating by putting time constraints on crews while not always properly arranging traffic clearance to get things done. So no matter what you do you're wrong even though you're doing everything you can to do ever being asked of you due to circumstances beyond your control. Just a thought from a similar yet different industry.
Retired ATC here. 911 stopped our FAM Training. In 25 years of service in 2 EnRoute Centers and 1 very busy Tower, I don’t recall seeing more than a couple Commercial Pilots coming in to see how they can be a team player with ATC.
Your videos are so interesting!!! Thank you for your efforts in explaining to us lay people!
Briefing two different departures is like briefing no departure at all. Departure Briefing Items are basically like Memory Items: You need them readily accessible in your mind. Trying to remember WHICH of two different sets of recently-briefed instructions apply, when you have an engine failure rolling down the runway, is an invitation to error.
Whenever I hear ATC on these aviation sites, I am amazed the flight crews can understand, much less process, what they're saying. I get that communication between all parties is a sort of shorthand. But for us "groundlings", it's like trying to understand a native speaker for the first time whose language you've studied for years. You can recognize bits and pieces but processing it takes a lot of exposure. To me, it all sounds like a foreign language they're speaking. I admire ALL of you! Keep'em flying!
Funny, because I am not a pilot and have no trouble. But I have worked in aerospace, developing radios and navigation systems for a long time, so I have listened a lot. Part of it is context, there are only so many things they are likely to say.
Especially when there is a language difference between pilot and ATC
I agree with you, especially this conversation, this really was very hard to understand. Sometimes I doubt if they want to be understood loud and clear.
I call it "aviation speak". Like if you practice French, at some point you can formulate sentences smoothly. Just get the grammar right. I see the grammar in pilot speak. Puzzles me how sometimes it varies as if it isn't second nature.
@@JimMork Not all pilots have English as their native language
Takeoff from L OR R is not uncommon at SFO and that’s why “brief both” is often in the ATIS and why the controller was quick to push back. Pilots should have told her from the jump they needed more time and this could have all been avoided.
While this is true, the attitude from the ATC that escalated the situation was not helpful for anyone.
@@ariochivAlso, the ATC could have bothered telling them what the traffic actually was (speed) - so they'd know how much time they actually had...
That ATC was seemingly trying to cause a problem/daring pilots to step on the line.
I've honestly witnessed more professionalism from teenagers at a temporary burger stand during a county fair 😞
Not untrue. But that doesn’t justify unprofessional behavior.
My best friend in the Navy who was hired by Delta as a 727 FE in 1981 confided in me that it disturbed him that he often had to scramble to start the third engine because the Capt accepted an immediate takeoff without the center engine running. (Back then high fuel prices resulted in doctrine to taxi out with less than all engines running). He stated that it happened more than once that he was starting the third engine on the takeoff roll.
That's insane. Someone's head should've rolled over that nonsense.
Just an awesome channel. I always learn something from your vids. We should never stop learning as pilots. Thank you for all you do for aviation safety. CFII
The initial runway change to 28R included the line up and wait instruction. For whatever reason, holding on a runway while reprogramming the FMS is an invitation for Mr Murphy to introduce himself. The crew was hesitant about it and wanted to confirm the line up and wait assignment. If the runway change assignment was earlier in the taxi it would have helped tremendously. As is, ATC is playing with fire here and they could absolutely get a contributing factor assessment if there were a tragedy. I have t read the ATIS but I doubt any pilot would expect a runway change assignment and a line up and wait clearance at the same time unless it was a small GA aircraft
There's a comment above from someone who said they were right behind that Delta, and that such changes are common at that airport. And that they as a crew do prepare each time for it.
I think the pilot with his 2 minutes estimation is as much playing with fire as you think ATC is. Underestimating a procedure by half is not a good idea when it's that close.
Given i am not a pilot, i do have to drive onto runways _occasionally_ , and even though i do not have to prepare all the data pilots do, i do have to prepare for the measurements i take (no not the "skiddometer" ones, we do regular checks of LLZ transmissions). And if i get asked by ATC about how long it takes me, i either know the exact time it takes and add 1 minute to it, or i do a little overestimation to be on the safe side.
Same when we do longer measuring drives. Then we can't say how long it takes as a whole, but we estimate that we can clear the runway and safety zone in a certain timeframe. And it's better for the safety of everybody to not underestimate time needed.
Sunday funday with Kelsey. 😎 I often believe that cross training in every company or in this case environment would be the best for everyone. Appreciation and knowledge of all sectors just makes sense. Great work as always. May you always have free delicious breakfast and the perfect selection of snacks and pb&j. 😇
Very well explained. This is why I watch your videos all the time!!!
Thank you for breathing new life into the 74, Kelsey! My family and I flew many times on the legendary jumbo jet (TWA and Pan Am) to visit family abroad. Not sure why they halted the manufacturing of this aircraft.
It was an old, inefficient airframe that outguzzled newer planes with better economy. Simple as that. Why aren't 707s and DC-10s built anymore? Same reason.
Totally understood. But their capacity, I believe, was unmatched by any of its successors. Would much rather travel overseas on a 747 than the narrow-body 767, fuel economy notwithstanding. Your comment reminds me of Americans who went ga ga over Toyota and Honda for the same reason. Me, I'll take the Cadillac of the sky and cherish my memories.
I just wanted to say I’ve been watching your videos for 6 months. Since then I’ve started pilot school, I just did my first Solo and am prepping for my solo XC.
Thanks for your videos they are equally entertaining as they have been educational.
🙏
How’s pilot school going?
That "Ooooh" will always escalate the situation and I think the pilots did a great job just acknowledging they were in the wrong. Not sure that they were, but that was exactly the response that deescalated everything. I think this ATC sounds like she's in control, but I'm not so sure, I hope she had a nice holiday soon after.
I’m a controller and I love your suggestion Kelsey! Fam flights aren’t just fun, they are among the most important training I’ve ever received.
I agree with your summary of how to deal with the situation, like you I would not line up until everything has been loaded, checked and briefed which could save a lot of embarrassment.
When I was a pilot for a uk airline we had a program with ATC that their guys rode with us and we visited them, it was very productive. PS 28R is longer than 28L and the ODP is runway heading to 3000 on both runways (If my memory serves me correctly)
The Americans refuse to privatise it so they are left with an overall poor system
@@Horizon301.:
"Our tax dollars 'AT WORK' "!
😐🤔
@@daleallen7634 yeah. I don’t see why they hold on to soemthign so poorly managed. It’s obvious it needs to seperate itself from the government burecracy
Probably the reason that the Delta pilot didn't initially just hold short of 28R is because from being stopped at the hold short line until getting centered on the runway will take about 20 seconds or so, and then add in the time to inform the tower that they are ready, and for the tower to respond with takeoff clearance would probably add another 5-10 seconds. So all of this would add about 30 seconds to their departure time, which doesn't seem like much but it's a lot when things are moving that fast. By the time they told the tower they were ready, the inbound aircraft would be even closer, and there was a good chance that the tower would have had them wait at the the hold-short until it landed. But by going onto the runway they would have essentially secured themselves with an immediately takeoff as soon as they were ready, but they ran the risk that they would take too long and be shooed off the runway. They decided to risk it, it didn't work out, the controller got annoyed and called them out on it. So in that sense the controller seems to be generally correct. However the controller mistakenly then tried to tell the pilots how to get things done faster, and seemed to imply that there is no reason why the pilot shouldn't be able to handle a last minute runway change, that's where the controller crossed the line. It seems to me that neither the pilot or the controller were completely seeing things from the other person's perspective.
Makes you wonder if she had a guy on a ten mile final coming in on runway 28 right why would she move these guys from 28 left over to 28 right. She's making more work for everybody, including herself.
Great reminder. No matter what your business is, try to put yourself in the person's shoes. This applies to all jobs.
That controller has a ton of narcissist running through her cold veins. She also talks way faster than necessary, on purpose, just to make things even more intense. Personally, I would have never boxed myself into a two minute window, and I've had to make those kinds of decisions before, because you can't count on being granted extra time and anything in access of what you agreed to becomes YOUR problem, even if you didn't initiate the situation. But, long story short, she's a legend in her own mind and also a liability. She needs to be dropping fries someplace, not working in the professional world.
She should try being a truck stop waitress .
Females are a challenge to work with. I worked 43 yrs as a critical care nurse. Never again will I work in a female dominated occupation.
Eh you're doing a fair bit of mind reading there, you can't really say what she was thinking or feeling at the time
Oh my gosh, there are so many snarky nasty people here in the Bay Area. I just have to shake my head. Thanks for posting this. It was pretty cool you all come right over my backyard when you’re coming to SFO
That is a gorgeous area...wish I could afford to live there.
@@davidcole333 yes, it is really nice. It used to be a lot nicer. I’ve lived here all my life. there are a lot of homeless now and a lot more crime. Hopefully it will get better. Oh yeah, the prices around here are absolutely ridiculous. Compared to what they were when I was a kid.😂
I had a similar experience with a railroad dispatcher who couldn’t understand why a move of our equipment was taking longer than he expected.
It was a 1/4 mile walk through snow but on his board it was right there. Obviously he had not been to this remote location in years. He then expressed his frustration when on the phone he told me not to f…. This up
Oh no. recorded!!
Next day he came down to apologize
Obviously the Chief dispatcher had spoken to him. 🚂
would def post that to shame the idiot lol
Was it uphill both ways?
@@toddsmith8608
Of course it was 🤣
exceptional content and reasoning. love the animations as well
I knew that being a pilot was not like some people say "like driving a bus". But I never realized how much more complicated it is. Thank you for your informative videos. I've learned tons (im just a midle age accountant!) about my most favorite thing ever: traveling.
this whole video in one sentence:
people who should be working with one another work against one another
After watching many, many of Kelsey's analysis videos of the interaction of ATC and the pilots, the ATCs really need to get into the cockpits frequently to actually observe what is really going on during these interactions of take offs and landings.
You're _absolutely_ 100% right about _everything_ you just said here! Imagine how much better & safer things could get?! 🤞💕
Or watch his videos. ;)
Just tell the FAA to hire another 5,000-10,000 ATC and that might be possible. The FAA refuses to staff ATC to proper levels.
@@connix69 The labor pool of well educated, mature, psychologically fit, well adjusted citizens for the extreme high stress of this career is very, very small in my opinion. Training at the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City is sixteen(16) weeks. Then other 2-4 years of on the job training to be fully certified. The FAA can't hire enough because people don't want this kind of demanding, relentless, mind bending job.
Thank you very much to do the right thing and think first about customer’s life. Traffic control MUST THINK about the people safety and pilots are their customers.
It is always easy to sit outside of the aircraft and critique what is going on! Especially when you are dealing with an emergency. You are trying to maintain the aircraft and there are about 10 different checklists and preparations going on.
As an enroute-controller myself, really love your Pilots vs Controllers Videos, please keep them going.
I already learned the one or the other thing from your videos, especially the view from "the other side" is very interesting.
Regarding the cockpit-flights for controllers: they are a really good thing to help to understand the pilots view, BUT:
At least in my country, nearly no one does cockpit flights, because:
1) it's really a bueroctatical mess
2) only in the freetime & unpaid (ok, that wouldn't stop me and most of the others, but together with point 3 it gets interesting...)
3) we are not allowed to leave the plane at the turnaround, (it has to be a returning flight) - a real bummer
4) And, the biggest flaw of all: We have to pay more than 100€ from our own pockets to do a cockpit flight
Under this conditions, it's relatable that nearly no one does them (only the very youngsters for 1 or 2 times, then they stop as well)
So... Please keep your Videos going for my colleagues and me :)
@RiverRaid82: That point 4 reminds me of so much cost cutting corporations like to do. So for a task to benefit the industry (re better procedures/understanding and therefore safety), the ATC has to pay over 100 Euros of their OWN money.
Like their bosses don't really want them to do it. Like when IBM (in my division -- it varied, per co-workers) stopped allowing over 1 class a year my last decade there, unless people wanted to pay themselves AND take such classes on their VACATIONS.
So 98% of us went from being HIGHLY educated re our technical support mainframe jobs to being behind the times. This sort of thing led to MANY good people leaving, and greatly demotivated many others.
But some clown gets credit for "saving money".
One wonders how many $billions such short term thinking costs corporations over time.
I think the safest option would've been to request hold before 28R, load and check everything and then tell ATC he's ready for departure. I know each minute represents wasted fuel but surely it would've been the safest option in the end. I'll sit back now and wait for the barrage of objections.
I didn't like the rather prickly ATC attitude - all the more reason to avoid stress, hold, reinput, verify.
100% agree, when in doubt, don't!
I’m an airline pilot and agree with you 100%. The whole “line up and wait on 28R and quickly run the new numbers while doing so” is an unacceptably risky course of action. I would definitely have requested a hold short on the other side and taken all the time I needed. I’m pretty firm with ATC when they try to push me into situations which will result in rushing and likely mistakes.
@@fox2mike28 She DID give them that option and the pilot opted to LUAW instead of holding short on C. Whether or not the runway change was timely, this issue was caused by the pilot not being truthful about how much time he wanted/needed. When she told him he could hold on Charlie if not comfortable, that was his chance to do what was right.
@@connix69and that justifies her unprofessional and completely unnecessary communications that followed? 🤔
no objections here
I agree with everything you have said!!! Great job, and I hope lots of controllers watch this!!!
Damn, this is good. Excellent, a total service to humanity. God bless everyone, may we all be the best versions of ourselves we can be and do our duties the best way that they can be done. Awesome, thank you.
She used her mommy voice!
Yes!!!!!!
Like the male ATCs use their daddy voices.