Rich-GA | Do Skeptical Atheists Think Casting Into Hell Is Unfair? | The Atheist Experience 26.30
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- The Atheist Experience 26.30 for July 24, 2022 with Jim Barrows and Kenneth Leonard.
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Christianity in a nutshell. A teacher puts a bunch of kids in a room with a bunch of books. Tells them to pick the right book with no instructions on how to do it. The kids start to grab books and argue which is the right one. At the end of the day the teacher walks back in, takes Johnny who grabbed the right book, for cookies and milk and sets the rest on fire.
That "right book" is actually a collection of randomly selected books which a group of kids pulled out of their minds after arguing and smashing a few others who disagreed with which books to throw in.
That is a very fitting analogy! Made me laugh. But it's not "Christianity in a nutshell", it's "fundamentalist Christianity in a nutshell".
That basically sums up the Sunday school classes I was put in as a child. 😂
God damn!! Spot on!!
Caveat: ALL religions do this, to a degree.
Not really. They don't give you any choices. They insist that there is only one true book and the others are fiction. Based on what part of the world you grow up in the "true book" changes.
I stopped attending church more than 50 years ago. Rich sounds exactly like the people that I left behind.
The Creator is the Most High and the loving, kind, and merciful God of the Christ and of TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons.
The Christ is the Master and Teacher of his TRUTHS and righteousness to TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons.
ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth for TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons, worshippers of the Creator, and believers of the Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness.
Satan the Devil is the enemy of the Creator and the cruel and hateful God of the anti-Christs and of all LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons.
The anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of all religions are the Masters and Teachers of their LIES and foolishness to foolish, cruel, hateful and fanatic JWs, Born Agains, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, SDAs, etc.
ETERNAL DEATH, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever for LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons, worshippers of Satan the Devil, and believers of the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
good decision bro.
Just about 55 years ago (I am 73). The delights (and sorrows, without which I couldn't enjoy the delights) of living in the real world of thought, reason, doubt, questioning, discovery have been so wonderful.
@@stevepierce6467 Atheists and agnostics will never ever know and understand that all Born Agains, JWs, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, SDAs, Catholics, etc. who believe and preach the LIES and foolishness of their ANTI-CHRISTS Pastors and Leaders about -
1. heaven and hellfire
2. Armageddon
3. rapture
4. reincarnation, etc
are nothing but foolish and worthless human beings who'll just become worthless and useless dusts on earth forever after their deaths.
All fanatics of all Christian and non-Christian religions and their ANTI-CHRISTS Pastors and Leaders will never ever know and understand that all TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons who honor the authority of the CHRIST and believe his teachings about the -
1. Kingdom of God and
2. Resurrection of the Dead
will be blessed, favored, honored, and rewarded by the Creator through his CHRIST with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the Kingdom of God under the loving rulership, guidance, and protection of the Creator's Chosen King, His Christ.
If he uses the same reasons to believe in christianity and avoiding using reason and logic, then every other religion must become true for him, they all must be correct because they ALL have the same mind game
The sad/scary part is that people have been programmed by their religious leaders to actually think that hell is a moral thing from a kind and loving God.
The Creator is the Most High and the loving, kind, and merciful God of the Christ and of TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons.
The Christ is the Master and Teacher of his TRUTHS and righteousness to TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons.
ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth for TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons, worshippers of the Creator, and believers of the Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness.
Satan the Devil is the enemy of the Creator and the cruel and hateful God of the anti-Christs and of all LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons.
The anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of all religions are the Masters and Teachers of their LIES and foolishness to foolish, cruel, hateful and fanatic JWs, Born Agains, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, SDAs, etc.
ETERNAL DEATH, just dusts, not eternal torment or torture, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever for LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons, worshippers of Satan the Devil, and believers of the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
@DEG05, Asedillo Ruben, Y. hahahaha, are you hurt, wounded, angered, and offended by my statements?
Well, it's just a simple battle to the death -
The Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness VS. the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
ETERNAL DEATH, just dusts, not eternal torment or torture, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever for LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons, worshippers of Satan the Devil, and believers of the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth for TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons, worshippers of the Creator, and believers of the Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness.
@@jaflenbond7854 Chillax.
@@jaflenbond7854 Everyone knows that this "creator" must have also created Satan and all the hate and evil. Who or what created this "creator"?
@@Sinless_Stone_Caster hahahaha, hell or eternal torture is not true, that's just one the many LIES and foolishness of the anti-Christs.
But just go ahead, enjoy your life and have fun in mocking and insulting the Creator's Sovereignty and his Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness while you are still breathing and not yet turning into a worthless and useless dust on earth forever.
Rich needs an argument that doesn't also work for the Quran, Book of Mormon, Bhagavad Gita, the collected works of L. Ron Hubbard, and the Hitchhikers Guide of the Galaxy.
You left out several books by Tom Robbins! (Another Roadside Attraction, Skinny Legs and All). But great list!
Ahhh Slartibartfast, may peace be upon him.
And lest we forget, the Companion to THGTTG, the Complete, Unabridged, Goatherder's Guide to Life, the Universe, and Everything, which includes the misplaced Apocryphal books that somehow fell out of the Bible.
At least, Douglas Adams' god 'apologised for the inconvenience'.
The fact that most Christians can understand that such a system would be reprehensible, speaks to just how damaging religion can be.
They know their God doesn't even meet their own moral standards yet they persist.
That's why most of them fear their own god.
I always think that if a person is okay with their god torturing people that they disagree with then they'll be okay with people they agree with torturing people they disagree with.
christians who believe this stuff, are either insanely immoral or completley morally bankrupt. And there is no way to coexist with these people.
they r doing more damage to thier religion .
@@michaelfulthorpe1910 You'll grow up and understand one day
It baffles me that anyone thinks infinite punishment for a finite crime could ever be justified.
Because it says so in a "good" book, so it must be true.
People cannot even IMAGINE these numbers! When you sit someone down and EXPLAIN it to them, they generally have pause.
Take one year,
Now a decade
Then a century (most have a concept of these...1900 to 2000)...
Now a millennium (1000 years...10 centuries...from the year 1000 a.d. to 2000 a.d.)...
Now, a million years (a mega-annum, 1,000,000 years..Five times longer than the entire history of ALL homo sapiens (approx. 200,000 y.o.)...
Then an Epoch (in geologic time...3,000,000 years...we're in the Holocene Epoch. The last epoch was the Pleistocene epoch)....
Then an Eon (or as some say, a "gigaannum" (Ga)...or a Billion years, 1,000,000,000 (the Earth is 4.5 Billion y.o.)...
Then a terrannum (1 trillion years...Ta, 1,000,000,000,000) and so on in accordance with the SI prefix system...
NOW....
Take a Ta, TIMES a Ta, TIMES a Ta, TIMES a Ta, TIMES a Ta,, etc, etc. etc...(so a trillion, TIMES a trillion, TIMES a trillion, TIMES a trillion, TIMES a trillion, and you MIGHT get to "forever" (and just get tires of multiplying)...and THAT'S is how long a person's "soul" is going to suffer in unspeakable torment, agony, and pain for a "sin" that was committed that was "unforgiveable" in the Bible. "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; BUT the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall NOT be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31) or in Islam..."Shirk includes polytheism, such as believing Jesus is God or taking rabbis as one's lords in derogation to God.(Quran 9:30)...😂🤣😂🤣
People love fascism
@@paulmorris6177 you can't even count your way to infinity, something apologists like WLC need to understand.
@@JonS oh I know…sometimes giving them scale helps..lol..
Kenneth is just awesome when he breaks down a callers nonsense and stupidity!! Jim is as well,!!
He is indeed a very sharp cookie.
There’re two types of folks: 1. Wanna find the truth and keep their mouth shut. 2. Wanna talk and can’t shut up for a moment
Rich basically goes for Pascal's Wager, one of the worst arguments you can make.
[Edit: corrected a misspelling that was pointed out to me.]
I always ask, which god you talkin' about Willis?
Religious apologists have been failing for thousands of years. They’re desperate.😂
*Pascal
@@irrelevant_noob hah, I was corrected by a noob.
I do appreciate it, I don't know why my brain insists on spelling it wrong. Thanks
"What if you get to heaven and it's full of Mormans? "
Died inside laughing!
"What if you get to heaven and it's full of prostitutes?" ;)
@@sdozer1990 what if you go to heaven and it's full of critical thinking atheists? How do Christians know that God wants only devout believer's and not people who question and thrive to gain knowledge? Maybe God wants the intelligent free thinker and not the sheep that only follows
@@jackwhitbread4583 If I were God I'd rather have people I can converse with than a bunch of gullible idiots kissing my ass
Its such a surreal experience to hear someone explain quite literally the most horrifyingly immoral construction of the universe existentially possible, and to hear the glee and confidence in their voice at the prospect. Sins of the father indeed, god is so evil he can’t help himself but create a bunch of children just so that he can abuse them for all eternity.
Oh and you two absolutely killed it on this call, great episode!
One point I made to Christian that he started tap dancing around was the deaths of babies in the flood. Those babies hadn’t committed any sins but god drowned them and he drowned them because he was mad at their parents. I didn’t think god drowning babies because their parents didn’t worship him was very loving, merciful or just.
@@aidenmartin6674 not only that if their mythical god creates human life, look at all of the f***** up babies he creates. Ambiguous gender, babies born without brains, cancer babies, conjoined twins, here's the good one gender dysphoria babies that don't even know what gender they are till they get older they realize they're in the wrong body, but yet their God created them and he doesn't like gay people. Some f***** up s*** huh
It's not even glee, it was more like "Welp, it is what it is". Like he didn't want to believe it at first because it went contrary to his image of god, but his faith was stronger than his sense of morality so it seems like he just went "If the Bible says so, I can't do anything about it"
There are some theologians who claim that one of the ‘perks’ of heaven is watching the horror movie of hell: “The sight of those tormented in hell will exalt the happiness of the saints in heaven” Jonathan Edwards
Theist: "If you die and stand before God..."
Me:" How would I know it's him?"
if i, atheist and any believer die and we finally meet it we'd be both surprised by what and who god is, if it really exist
i mean even if god themself reveals itself to me with all the attributes of allknowing, eternal and so on i would not change my ways and to get into heaven, the prospect of being an eternal slave for an allmighty lazy fuck doesn't sound appealing to me, also if it is really allknowing and all that stuff it must know that it was selfish reasons that led me try get to heaven and in my current view i can't believe that if you x thing you get access while you do anything else you are excluded
add here another thing "you are doomed from the start but do as i say and i'll save you" approach does not sound like a planned thing from an allknowing entity who knew every events outcome even before it's first domino was setup to fall
maybe my assumption of allknowing is wrong here but i don't think an entity who doesn't know the outcome of all the things it will set in motion is allknowing to begin with, also if it really isn't bound by time it wouldn't that big of a deal of traveling into past and correct some mistakes it made even if it's knowledge is limited by the present and it can't see every future event unfolding and stuff, even with that limitation for an eternal god it should be no problem to rewind time and tweak the humans until it found solution that is more akin to it's plan than what we currently have as reality, okay i personally wouldn't know in that instance know time was tempered with but even i as mere mortal can think of some other ways to ensure my prefered outcome other than "do as i say or i'll punish you", an allknowing, allmighty, allloving eternal being not bound by the physics of this universe and all that nonsense should be crafty enough to do the same if it really interested in the destiny of it's chosen subjects
in other words god as described in the holy texts and the actions it took in that texts and present days does not match at all which in my opinion is enough to dismiss the existence of that described version of god, there could be gods out there but since they are not interfering so far i see no reason to worship them just because
what i find fascinating is the thought that part of the reason the first settlers set out to the new world because they were sick of the ruling of the King of England and stuff, i am pretty sure pretty sure they were some who fleeing from the Church of England and stuff and some time later the descendens of that freedom loving ppl are willing to subscribe their life to please a "higher power" which might even not exist
When you bow before Him
@@timsmith530 Are you suggesting that having poor posture is an indication that you are standing before a god?
@@timsmith530 I bow before no one. (except maybe Astarte, Canaanite goddess of fertility, love and..........wait for it...................War!
Which god?
It comes down to some people have absolutely zero critical thinking skills.
So atheism is irrational - got it
True
@@walnutoil100 You got nothink.
@@walnutoil100 Your evidence atheism is irrational is?
@@walnutoil100 Your evidence is?
Eternal punishment for a finite "crime" is never fair or just.
Precisely 🙋🏼♀️
Now to get ahead of anyone who says "you continue to sin once in hell" has to admit that we either: 1. Still have "free-will" in Hell. or 2. We no longer have "free-will" in hell.
If it is 1, then we would have the free-will to stop sinning, therefore we are still being punished eternally for a finite "crime."
or 2. God has taken away our free-will...causing us to be punished eternally for a finite crime.
We inevitably come to the same conclusion, regardless.
That is what you get for being born before Jesus was born.
No worries. gods don’t exist and neither does a “hell”. Fairytale nonsense.
@@paulcleary8088 Screenshotted. 👍
A fully grown adult saying`I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell` comedy gold, I'm in fits of laughter listening to this guy🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's his hell. He can burn in it. I've got better things to do after I die, decomposing being one of them.
People threaten me with hell from time to time, especially after I've scrutinized their claims. I like to compare it to being told that Santa isn't bringing me gifts on x-mas.
I burst out laughing at 18:58 (approx.) when he said, "...unfortunately that's part of it..."
Billions of people are going to burn in hell, enduring agony for all eternity, through no fault of their own...unfortunately that's part of it. I would hate to see what this god would dream up if he were not all loving!
@@sigmaoctantis1892 “all loving” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yes, "the Goatherder's Guide to the Galaxy" is full of that funny stuff.
If we all sinned, fairness indicates everyone be punished the same way. The caller is advocating for favoritism. For example: If a Judge has two criminals who did the exact same crime. The first person he sentences to life in prison. He lets the 2nd criminal go free solely because the defendent knows him... Is this fair?!?
I've heard Christians actually employ that as an argument in their favor. "But what if the Judge's son paid the penalty for your crime? You'd have to be stupid not to accept it."
These are the same people that claim atheists don't want to take personal responsibility for things. Because nothing says taking personal responsibility like shuffling off all your guilt onto an alleged innocent.
Jesus died for all our sins anyway so they’re forgiven. Rape and plunder away. Have at it lol
Right!
Even worse, the Christian God sentencing you at the end of your life is not only the judge, he is also your lawyer, the prosecution, the jury, AND the victim of your crime. Sounds life a fair trial to me!
One of my favorite "sayings" is...why is there ETERNAL PUNISHMENT for finite "crimes"?
Answer: There isn't unless one counts the death penalty.
All loving God wouldn't allow Hell to be a thing. All knowing God would know beforehand who would go to Hell and who wouldn't, thus making him not all loving if he made people just to send then to Hell. A just God wouldn't punish someone for all eternity for a thought crime. So very many holes in the fairytale.
Precisely 🙋🏼♀️
And said loving god wouldn't send his son to earth to be executed.
@@kizza390 precisely 🙋🏼♀️
@@kizza390 to fix a problem he created, no less! And one he must have foreseen, if he has a plan and everything sticks to it.
@Robert Boland Jesus was just play acting the whole crucifixion thing too. No pain at all, just hamming it up for the crowd!
It’s a lot like saying if you don’t believe in Santa Claus then you don’t get any Christmas presents
Or if you don't believe in the tooth fairy, then you don't get any quarter underneath your pillow.
The Abrahamic God is like a very picky Santa Claus or a slightly flexible leprechaun. :)
I believe in the one true god. Why people deny Poseidon is beyond me.
@Brandon Letzco Excuse me sir. Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Poseidon? The human body is 60% water after all. He is in us all. (You know, I could actually run with this and make some money. LOL)
didn't you see the movie? dude couldn't even keep a boat upright
Megatron will send you to hell for your blasphemy 🤖
"The good news is there's no reason to think any of that stuff is true." 😅👏🏻👌🏻
“What happens if you get to heaven and it’s full of Mormons?” That would be the definition of hell😂
Also, he keeps asking how are they gonna feel when death is near and "see god" and that bullshit, but why does not he think by himself, what if god had some humor and send to hell everyone who just had blind faith and just said they believed because they wanted a reward and actually making atheists the ones who stay in heaven and discussing that plot twist? Why does not he ask that question? Why doesn't he thinks about if other religions are the true ones and didn't come along with Aztec's gods? Or what if there was just NO god at all? Why does he choose to be deluded in his own fantasy world?
If I get to Heaven that pretty much confirms there is a hell. So how could I enjoy eternal bliss knowing this?
@@Thrillin_Chillin_Drillin because you’d be full of Christian love ,you’re so full of the Holy Spirit there’s no room to mourn the ones who didn’t make it , well that’s how an old pastor once answered me when I asked him about our loved ones who weren’t ‘saved’ . VERY glad to be an EX-Theist now .
@@kevinmcgrath8310 No room to mourn. What a sick theist view.
@@Thrillin_Chillin_Drillin I absolutely agree with you !
Its odd people use a word with no idea where it came from Hell Germanic Norse Hel, in Norse, originally the name of the world of the dead; it later came to mean the goddess of death.
I watching my grandfather die a long protracted death in hospital, because he was brainwashed as a Catholic all his life, he died locked up in fear and panic because he was convinced he would go to hell for the crime of walking away from a physically abusive family life at a young age. He was one of the best most moral ethical kind generous human beings you could ever meet. But he died in abject fear. Religion? No thanks.
I really feel sorry for this dude! I was once like him and I totally understand his fear.
My man, living in fear isn't the way to live. I don't think I've ever be free like this in my entire life. Death is a natural part of life and we all gonna have to face it at a point
Congratulations on achieving manumission from your spiritual enslavement, and best wishes for enjoying your spiritual freedom!
Thank you
What were you afraid of?
Killer point, Kenneth, with the Book of Mormon. This caller is trying to Pascal's Wager you into buying what he's selling.
I just wonder why a God that knew everything, could do anything and wanted for nothing would attach such importance to whether Their comparatively weak and limited creatures believed in Them or not. It makes no sense to me. On the other hans, one can very easily understand why belief would be important to human religious institutions.
Worse yet are Calvinists! They believe that Yahweh predestined everything before it happened. So, according to them free will is Yahweh's excuse to torture people for actions they could not avoid doing and for actions s they could not initiate.
Don't believe me?
Look up Calvinism and TULIP. Five of the most disgusting and revolting doctrines ever proposed.
I have always tried to figure out why an all knowing God would make Lilith or need the flood to cleanse the earth.
Why do any of it if you know the outcome? Is he just bored and maniacal?
You have to marvel at holy books. Written by very intelligent people to scare and enslave kids so that they stay scared all through adult hood. Every psychological nuance is used to spread terror in young minds and then creating a structure (through religious institutions) to keep this model functioning to exploit the society. Love and terror used in conjuction so effectively - I can't help but marvel at organized religion.
@Nathaniel Elderwood "Because it takes a certain kind of passion and desire to seek things that are difficult to prove or understand. " - you mean young age brainwash.
"Most don't care or they're intellectually lazy about investigating or being honest." - projection. Very few honest theists exists on internet.
"The choice few are selected to have contact with such intelligent beings. " - everything points to that god does not exist.
Why does not being convinced of an unproven god warrant the absolute worst punishment beyond human comprehension?
It doesn’t hurt anybody and if this god really didn’t want any of this to happen he/she/it could have either:
A) Not punish people for using the ability reason that he gave them.
B) Not judge people on gullibility over deed.
C) Don’t make humans that will “choose” hell and only make people he knew would believe in him.
D) How about not create hell in the first place?
This whole system of heaven and hell is just an exaggerated example of the stick and the carrot to better control superstitious people of the past with fear mongering.
Ken and Jim could not have more masterfully broken things down for this caller. What an amazing segment.
If there is no God, and all faith is falsehood, and eternity is random then what's the purpose of you obsessing over what Christians believe?
Jason, wow - that’s a great question. How about calling in to the show to ask it to one of the hosts?
@@calliope4293 because it is difficult to ignore harmful stupidity. You also wish to push your morals and ethics on the rest of us . You want to take my daughters rights away , and other crap you want to push in the public sphere . You just want to stop us criticising and pointing out the horrendous stuff that you believe. Tough . Those days are long gone . We will not be silenced .
@@calliope4293 Because religious people will not stop forcing their beliefs onto everyone else, despite those beliefs having no evidence or justification for being true.
They are such a dynamic duo! Ice cold and no-nonsense guys. Jim, imposing like Zeus himself on his mountain listening to this talking maggot rambling on the phone...priceless!
I love the caller's laughter after hearing flat earthers mentioned. This coming from a man who believes in the devil.
Good point.
Nah, a lot of religious people are brainwashed more or less, indoctrinated at the very least. Flat Earthers are just stupid
I noticed that too. Quite incredible how people can believe in absurdities and yet laugh at others who do too.
Just goes to show you the power religion has over people.
His probably only just come back from Dallas waiting for JFK to appear, with Elvis lolol
You know what would really suck??.......
......getting to the Pearly Gates and seeing L. Ron Hubbard playing nightclub bouncer as to who gets past the red velvet rope.
Eternity would need some good drugs to be bearable... L. Ron might be the best bet ;)
The more I watch Kenneth in these clips, the more I appreciate him.
I honestly believe that Christians that ask this have never actually been around someone who is in the last throes of death. Many times, they are not, in any way, of sound mind.
Superman died in a book. Then a few issues later, he came back to life in a book.
Big whoop.
Gandalf did it too. So did the lion Aslan. And even Harry Potter. It's a very common trope in literature and was in use long before the buybull writers copied it. One would imagine that a god would tell a more original story.
Pascal's wager and the argumentum ad populum fallacy. It's been addressed hundreds or thousands of times on this show. The caller has nothing new.
It’s still befuddling to hear adults talk about their magic beliefs. Sadly, so many accept this kind of nonsense
"Well, you know.... parents spank their kids and put them in the corner and ground them for their wrongdoing so why can't God?" :)
You only hear them if you seek them out. Don't feel sad for us, we won't need sympathy.
@@MrMarco855 you need skepticism
That awkward moment when an atheist converts a Christian to Mormonism 😂
baby-steps. ;-)
Rich seems to like an irrational cruel god who will punish those who have critical thinking skills.
You mean like your belief that you were made by a big bang? Those aren't critical skills.
@@MrMarco855 Did I claim I was made by the big band? I would really love to hear what you think ‘critical thinking ‘ is.
Also, he keeps asking how are they gonna feel when death is near and "see god" and that bullshit, but why does not he think by himself, what if god had some humor and send to hell everyone who just had blind faith and just said they believed because they wanted a reward and actually making atheists the ones who stay in heaven and discussing that plot twist? Why does not he ask that question? Why doesn't he thinks about if other religions are the true ones and didn't come along with Aztec's gods? Or what if there was just NO god at all? Why does he choose to be deluded in his own fantasy world?
@@MrMarco855
Big Bang is a terrible name for the concept. I prefer “everywhere stretch”.
"With all of their kids, ALL of their kids"
That was too funny.
Weak minds find comfort in lies. Strong minds find comfort in truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable.
So is atheism true or a lie?
@@walnutoil100
So what's your preferred definition of atheism?
@@walnutoil100 Neither. Atheism isn't a truth claim. It's simply the denial of the claim "a God exists."
Asking that makes no sense. Imagine the scenario.
Theist "God is real."
Atheist "I don't believe you."
Theist "Is that true or a lie?"
Athiest "🤦"
Theist: What’s your religion?
Me: Non-delusional.
Ramen!
I like that.
Theist: So have you ever witnessed evolution?
@@mattpowell6291 Me: Have a daughter and watch her grow up and become more intelligent, more mature, and more beautiful to the point no man deserves her.
@@mattpowell6291
Yes, you can see the non random selection of random mutations within a human lifetime.
Much love to you Kenneth!
I served 20 years and 6 combat tours and I'm a lifelong atheist. Plenty of us in foxholes brother.
Did you ever witness any Christians in those fox holes praising Jesus and yelling at the enemy "Shoot us! Throw a grenade in here! Do something to us!"?
@@sdozer1990 very strange question dozer. What exactly are you trying to get at?
@@mikesmith1181 Have you heard of the contemporary saying "There are no Theists in foxholes."? ;)
I'd say there are no true Christians in foxholes, because they don't get up yelling "Throw a grenade in here! Woohoo! I'm going *up* to Jesus! Yeehaw!"
I don't know exactly why it hit me this way, but I am a long time listener of AXP & similar shows, and this might he my favorite call ever. Kudos to Kenneth & Jim for their perfect counters to everything this caller was proposing. I'll be listening to this one again.
What Rich is calling for is high-stakes gambling. Literally anything can be believed on faith. He is advocating that we believe things on bad evidence and organize our lives around those beliefs and raise our children to believe it all without evidence. And if we don't follow that lousy, silly path, we deserve eternal torment. I am fully prepared to defend my choices to any deity I encounter when I die. But I don't believe that any of them exist, and I have no cause to believe that any of them exist. And if anyone has evidence to support their existence, I'd be all ears. But as it stands, if I die and I happen to stand before pearly gates, I am prepared to declare that I was justified in my lack of belief.
Good luck.
@@MrMarco855 Ooooohhhh, scary!
Kenneth is fantastic please come back to the show
First time listening to Kenneth Leonard and gotta say this guy is sharp! Great knowledge to bring to the table.
"I gave you my son"
So...no you didn't. Even if the gospel story was true, that was 2000 years ago and we're back where we started just relying on the claim of a book. Presumably an all-powerful god would find it trivial beyond belief to repeat themselves periodically to make the point, but I guess we're not worth it?
Being in heaven with Rich would be hell.
“Knowing that god is a loving god” followed by “god curses generations and unfortunately that’s just part of it”. The irony of that realization and yet doesn’t see it for what it is.
my only question is why does satan work for god? why would satan want to torture me, wouldn't he consider me on his team? why would satan do anything god tells him to do? the entire concept of hell and eternal torture is stupid
It is very problematic for a number of reasons. The only conclusion I can come up with is that Lucifer never had free-will and that God intended this to happen all along.
If suffering is the byproduct of sin and bad things happen to good people for the "greater good" then the whole system depends on sin.
Yup
The answer is that the g0d of the bible is actually Satan himself. After the episode with Job, Satan made another wager with g0d where he claimed he could fool all of mankind into believe that he, Satan, was actually g0d, if g0d allowed him to deceive the scribes who wrote the bible. Satan told g0d that he could make men who believed themselves to be good and righteous become fervent apologists for executing infants as collective punishment, human sacrifice, slavery, etc..
There is more direct evidence that my hypothesis above is correct than there is to the contrary. Also, I have never yet met a bible babbler who can tell me how they know i am wrong about this, just like they cannot tell me how they know they are right and one billion Hindus are also wrong.
Answer: God is superb at outsourcing various divine jobs. :)
I am so glad, I am free from this poison, so is my wife and our son. Thank you atheist experience.
Rich : *"Please let me ask the same question at least 5 times"* ! Why do so many Christians ask hypothetical questions instead of dealing with the actual ?
Whataboutism, hypotheticals and “what ifs” are all they have.
Emotional immaturity. They’re trying to ask others to find out how they feel about it rather than being able to cope and find out how they feel about it.
The fact that theists, honestly, can’t hear how immoral, unjust, illogical and, well, *evil* their fantasies often are… 🤯
Even when I was a Christian I found The Problem of eternal torture indefensible. I realized that even if I proselytized to every person I met millions or billions of people in the past, present, and future would still be damned. This ideology haunted me, day and night. In my heart of hearts I don't believe anyone deserves to be tortured in hell for all of eternity for finite sins, disbelief, or wrong belief.
It's amazing that people can start with the presumption that "accepting Jesus" is the single requirement for heaven as if that's a rule carved in gold.
This might be a clue to why any would think that, it seems to be crystal clear.
"That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9, NIV)
Yep, don't matter Evil you are, as long as you say, "I'm with Jesus", just before you expire.
It's all a Cosmic Skewering. If god exists he's the biggest "merde" in the Multiverse.
George Carlin had a skit that said,
"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money!
He always needs money!
He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!"
Right again.
Notice how Rich continues to load the question with more and more "if"s even after the question has been put on the table.
So many if's! Jesus Rich, if it is true then it's not our problem because there simply isn't enough evidence to believe it. We know humans make stuff up and are afraid of dying. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that humans created heaven to try and lesson the finality of death. It's just wishful thinking and delusion.
And no matter how many if's are added, it would still absolutely be immoral to torture someone forever for not believing in Christianity. There is no context which could possibly make that okay.
This is a different spin on Pascal’s Wager. Surprised the 2 hosts didn’t catch it immediately.
Kenneth was on fire with this caller. Good to see him shine
“Sin causes skin disease”. I learned something new today
I was like, WHAT! Religion scrambles your brain.
I had really clear skin as a teenager. I sinned A LOT as a teenager.
10:30 GUYS GUYS GUYS. When you make a good point, STOP AND GIVE IT SOME ROOM TO BREATHE. You keep making great points, and then you walk all over it with another statement. Stop, Let the caller address the point -- they won't be able to. Those types of moments are the seeds of skepticism and doubt, you have to let them linger and let the caller fumble around, groping for some way out of that logical conundrum -- to which there is none.
I have that exact reaction. Ask the question, then shut up for whaile.
Is "sufficient evidence" subjective or objective? I Sally Sue believes in god because her grandpa said he saw a white light and his loved ones around him at the time of his death - is that sufficient evidence for belief? Evidence, to me, isn't subjective. There has to be objective, verifiable evidence that makes something a fact or not. If you accept subjective evidence then ANYTHING can be used as evidence. "I found my car keys after I prayed - therefore...god" doesn't even begin to make sense.
Sufficient will necessarily be subjective. I can even accept tbe claim that if I had a personal experience with God I'd have to believe. I've never had one, though, so until God decides to make himself known to me in such a manner, I have no reason to think that someone else's personal experience is sufficient for ME to believe. I can't tell the difference between a genuine revelation and a sincere delusion.
Caller: "God gave us his word in the bible and his son appeared to us, so there's plenty of evidence for him being real".
Host: "why doesn't he give better evidence do we can confirm all of that?"
Caller: "It would violate our free will if he gave us evidence."
I don't understand why theists don't see the problem here.
Check out Derreck Bennett's video at Atheologica on *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement & Hell."* He's a former Christian.
Sensitive Christians should watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes only as he has a justified rant against evangelical Christians in the other parts.
Hell is unfair, just imagine if our justice system was based on what the divine justice would be like. It's like who you know and who you're friends with and the people who are friends with the judge or one of their family members is friends with the judge and they may find you guilty for murder but you serve no jail time
"But Hitler... If he just committed suicide and puff that was it, where's the justice?"
The foundation of my Atheism was the realization that Heaven and Hell are a horrific system. That almost every person of worth would end up in hell and the most abominable people would be taken into heaven.
❤️❤️❤️
Maybe Christianity is a psy op, perpetuated on humanity by beings from another dimension. Maybe the Elect, or Sheep, are actually going to Heaven to be ritually slaughtered and eaten. Maybe Believers or "Sheep", are destined to be sacrifices to these inter dimensional entities.
As usual with believers who have this line of questions, the “If…” is doing a LOT of heavy lifting. And they cannot and mostly will not see just how much that if has to do to jump the chasm between wishful thinking and reality.
This guy keeps trying to beat a dead horse. They've answered the question three times and he's still not satisfied. He is hung up on Pascal's Wager that this is what he's trying to convince people of.
these people just want a reason to justify their sins really. "I have repented so I can sin however much I want." If I had to share eternity with people like that, I would rather go to the other place
Someone told me they were Saved so no matter what they did they would go to heaven.
Amazing to hear how confused he was that you weren't thinking religiously when your father died. And its not a surprise that Kenneth's way out was because his church did a read through of the Bible, if more Christians read it themselves there'd be a whole lot less Christians.
Hell doesn't exist ...
point after point gets demolished and he acknowledges none.
Butt-hurtedness is the reason why. 😏
*Knock knock*
-Person: who's there?
*Voice outside*: Jesus
-Person: what do you want?
*Voice outside*: To save you
-Person: Save me? From what?
*Voice outside*: From what I will do to you if you don't open the door...
Even if such a thing existed, claiming we have to worship is immoral and totally against humanity and human values, it's repugnant and irrational to even want that to be true, it just means you are a person who can't imagine living without being a slave.
Exactly! I have no fear of hell whatsoever, because only an evil god could create such a place, and if there's an omnipotent evil god we're all screwed. That's assuming a god could even be evil, since evil as we know it is usually the result of something wrong with the brain, either through nature, nurture or a combination of both, and why would an omnipotent god be flawed in a similar way?
When the caller said: "That would be your interpretation." both of the hosts should have laughed.
I know I did.
😆
I laughed uproariously at the caller in response to every word he spoke for his comical unawareness of how predictable his responses were, even for a non-intelligent software model to accurately predict all of his responses to the hosts' interactions, with an astonishingly simple heuristic method !
@@merbst Comical indeed. XD
The Mormon question was brilliant!! That poor frittata on the other end of the line was stupefied!
Knowledge doesn't hinder free will. Look at lucifer. Knew of god and still choose to rebel, try again.
I believe that most religions, particularly the monotheist ones, were actually based on the hierarchical, authoritarian social structures of early cities. In these societies, the top ruler was an alpha male who had literally life-and-death authority over everyone else. Some societies (Egyptians, Romans) even proclaimed their ruler to be a god.
Still amazes me that the theists cannot get their head around the fact there's no "church" of atheism. There are undoubtedly atheists that have all sorts of beliefs around afterlife because that isn't central to the question. It's a single answer to single question.
Great call! Very well explained, it felt like they made a good connection with each other, a meeting of the minds, very honest and real.
Kenneth Leonard! You are awesome! You engage your interlocutors through respect, patience, honesty, listening skills, and thoughtful challenges. So refreshing.
The caller trying to pander towards the host personally tragedy really irritated me. Like he wanted to make some religious connection in any way he could.
He didn’t want to justify his religion because he is incapable of doing so, instead he wanted to instill fear with the whataboutism and try to emotionally connect with y’all.
I really like Kenneth 😊
Isn't it fascinating that if such a situation ever presented itself where a nonbeliever or wrong-believer came face to face with God, post death, you couldn't just have a compassionate conversation? For example...."hey, you know me the best, what did you expect?" My Dad would NEVER pull this shit with me and NOWAY would I ever permanently reject either of my kids.
Too late for apologies and yet, isn't there a story in the Bible where one brother keeps messing up and the father lectures the son that he could never turn his back on him. The death/too late scenario just seems like such an insidious strategy to force conformity on earth. God, I fucking hate religion and its shitty mind games.
It is identical to con men sales people forcing people to sign the contract. Really really really forceful in their efforts to close a deal. Pushy as fuck.
He's an honest caller. It's hard to believe that it's lights out and that this is it. As a former believer, what could be worse? It's hard to accept.
i dont find it hard to accept at all. had primitive man never invented gods or religions, we all would hve to accept that this is the only life we get, that we know of positively.
Eternal torture would be worse obviously.
Who'd willingly accept a relationship with someone who threatens you with torture with you if you refused?
About a third of the human population, last time I checked.
Coercion works
This is why it's used
@@drewdrake9130 --- It works for extortionists. A holy god isn't one.
@@Fernando-ek8jp --- And yet I thought this was all about "free will"? Had god threatened Adam and Eve with eternal hellfire, it's doubtful they'd have risked it for eating that apple.
@@gordon3186
How do you know that?
To take Kenneth's question further, what happened to ALL the people who died before Mormonism was created? Did they all go to hell because they were unlucky enough to live before the final testament of Jesus was made? Or heck, even the people before the events of the Bible? Did all those people automatically go to hell?
I used to be Mormon. They actually do baptisms for dead people. They use a surrogate. They believe that this will give the deceased the opportunity to accept Jesus and be saved. They do this for everyone, targeting bloodlines first but also strangers, because they count this as a convert to Mormonism. I remember there was some controversy when they were baptizing for Jewish Holocaust victims so they could convert them.
There was no people before the bible. Adam was the first human.
@@trehcrap even if Adam was the first human (and that's not true), even if the biblical creation story is true (and it isn't). Christianity began nearly 2000 years ago, there most definitely have been generations of humans who lived and died having never been exposed to Christianity. So, do those people go to hell for having not been revealed this supposedly all important message that they need to know to help their eternal destination?
@@hughmongous5089 Christians starting calling themselves Christians in the first century. God promised a Saviour in Gen. 3:15. You cannot get any older than that. O.T. people where saved the same way we are, Jesus Christ. They trusted in the promise of a Saviour. We N.T. people have no excuse . God revealed Him self in Jesus Christ
According to Mormon doctrine (which can mostly be found in Doctrine and Covenants), people will have the chance to listen to the gospel and accept it before they are ressurected. Jesus set up a mission in the spirit world when he died and now we can do baptisms for the dead in the temples to give them the chance to accept it.
Was mormon, did the whole thing
the Mormon example made my mind go straight to that one South Park episode about Joseph Smith.
I imagine the interaction being something like, "We even made a cartoon for you. One filled with old school colorism and the other not. You have to know your audience "*yuge smug smile*
So Gandhi didn’t believe in the Christian god, so regardless of his deeds he gets tortured for eternity. A serial killer and rapist decides to accept Jesus before being executed gets heaven for eternity. Seems fair to me! 🙄
Gandhi, serial killers, rapists, all imperfect, suffering, and dying humans are free to choose what to believe -
The Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness
VS.
the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
ETERNAL DEATH, just dusts, not eternal torment or torture, just worthless and useless dusts on earth forever for LIARS, cruel, and hateful persons, worshippers of Satan the Devil, and believers of the anti-Christs' LIES and foolishness.
ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth for TRUTHFUL, kind, and loving persons, worshippers of the Creator, and believers of the Christ's TRUTHS and righteousness.
@@jaflenbond7854 you ok, dude?
@@Stiffdistantandweird hahahahaha, don't worry about hell, that's just one of the many lies and foolishness of the anti-Christs.
After you die, you will not be tortured or burned for eternity by the God of the Christ, instead, you will just become worthless and useless dust on earth forever.
@@Stiffdistantandweird He be trippin' lyka muh fugga. 😆
Gandhi was definitely not a perfect human and deeds don't get you to heaven
"The wages of sin is death." So what's hell for?
"Hitler don't you know?"
What the caller (and believers in general) CONSTANTLY FORGET, is that these “books” that make up the HUNDREDS of versions of the CURRENT Bibles (whether it’s the KJV, New English, etc) are the CURRENT manifestations of what was determined almost 2000 years ago, by MEN, in meetings of “the church” and were basically doing nothing more than GUESSING, what were “divinely inspired by the word/“Holy Spirit”…and what weren’t. And we, today, have almost ZERO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of ANYTHING that existed then!! How can we POSSIBLY base ANYTHING that we know TODAY, in the 21st century, on people and events that we can’t even verify happened or that even existed at all?! Come on…
Well said you guys. Shot down the caller so logically (+ humour)
It always amazes me how most hosts are so calm and collective….I would be going a little crazy….lol
Like baldo Matt?
@@MrMarco855
He’s sick and tired of dealing with bag arguments, and he’s far more patient than myself.
Knock knock!
Who is it?
Its me Jesus, let me in!
Why?
So i can save you!
Save me from what?
From what im going to do to you if you dont let me in!
Knock knock!
Who is it?
Its me the anti-Christ, let me in!
Why?
So i can deceive you!
Deceive me about what?
About my LIES and foolishness...
what are your LIES and foolishness?
A lot you can choose from -
Eternal torment and torture or hell, Armageddon, rapture, reincarnation, etc.
@@jaflenbond7854 Does that work for you?
@@andersandersen6295 you are free to believe all the lies and foolishness of all religions' anti-Christs Pastors, and Leaders about heaven and hellfire, Armageddon, rapture, reincarnation, etc.
No one is forcing you to believe the TRUTHS and righteousness of the Creator's Christ.
@@jaflenbond7854 I may not be forced, but unfortunatly many people are, especially children.
@@andersandersen6295 No one is forcing you, all atheists, agnostics, and fanatics of all religions and their children to honor and believe the authority and teachings of the Christ about the Kingdom of God and Resurrection of the Dead as the TRUTH.
No one is stopping you, all atheists, agnostics, and fanatics of all religions and their children in mocking and degrading the authority and teachings of the Christ about the Kingdom of God and Resurrection of the Dead as worthless and useless, no value and importance whatsoever in your lives and existence.
The question is so ludicrous, even hypothetically, that it's hard to take seriously. I have never, for one single moment in my life, considered whether or not condemning someone to eternal agony and torment might be just or fair and I cannot begin to imagine the mindset of anyone who thinks that it would be. There are people in the world who I despise and detest, and who I consider to be existential threats to other members of the human race (including me and everyone I care about), and there are also people whose actions I consider to be so vile (whether or not they threaten me personally) and motivated by the very worst aspects of human character (sadistic cruelty, selfishness, greed, malignant hatred of those who are different, worship of money and power, etc.) and if I had the power to cause them to be swallowed up into a hole in the ground, never to be seen or heard from again, then I would exercise that power. But it would never occur to me to devise some magical torture chamber where such people would spend eternity being burned to death over and over and over again. A person who could both imagine this scenario, and consider it to be just and fair and reasonable, is a person I would want to keep well away from myself or my family.
Why?
@@MrMarco855 -
Why what? Why would I keep a person or being who could devise and implement a system of eternal torture away from me and from those I cared for...? What kind person would ask a question like that?
“Very polite, well-groomed people” 😂
KEN nailed this one. It was very interesting to watch. Nice job
What would I say to “god” if there is one come judgment day? The same that was carved on the wall of a prison in the concentration camp cell during WWII by a prisoner:
“If there is a god, he will have to beg my forgiveness.”
and what will God do with pious grandmothers in heaven when the grandsons they love get a demons pitchfork up the rear end? Can the grandmothers be happy in heaven?
Of course they can! If you live your life with the twisted morality Christianity teaches then you are happy they are getting what they deserve. You know, how sociopaths think!
Thank you, Kenneth. That was a wonderful schooling.
Re: being sent to hell... "I would be pretty annoyed" 😆
i was howling at the Mormon part lol great stuff dude.
"It's seems so obscure" the quote for today.