Did Kingdom Hearts End Turn Based JRPGs? ft. FauxRetro | Kingdom Hearts 20th Anniversary Video Essay
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- čas přidán 4. 03. 2022
- This month marks the Kingdom Hearts 20th Anniversary so I thought it was a good time to finally answer this question: did Kingdom Hearts End Turn Based RPGs? I've heard this discussion a lot of the last view years and I thought it was interesting, so I made a video essay about it! Along with my friend and fellow Kingdom Hearts nerd FauxRetro, I'll be diving into the history of Turn-Based JRPGs, analyzing the development of Kingdom Hearts, and how Kingdom Hearts influenced a generation of 2000s Action JRPG. The mash-up of Final Fantasy and Disney took the world of turn based JRPGs by storm. But now with the release of Persona 5, we're in the middle of a TurnBased JRPG renaissance. The Turn-Based RPG Renaissance is in full swing, especially now that games like EarthBound and Live A Live are getting remakes or remasters. We're even seeing new JRPG releases like Octopath Traveler, Triangle Strategy, and Shin Megami Tensei V, so it's pretty clear that the answer to "Is Turn-Based Dead?" is a big NO. And we love to see it.
Are you going to be watching State of Play 2022 for Final Fantasy 16 news?
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⚔ Games Featured ⚔
Kingdom Hearts, Square Enix 2002
Psychonauts, DoubleFine 2005
www.humblebundle.com/store/ps...
Ultima, Origin Systems 1981
Panorama Toh, Nihon Falcom 1983
Dragon Quest, Enix 1986
Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei, Namco 1987
Final Fantasy, Square 1987
Earthbound, Nintendo 1994
Breath of Fire, Capcom 1993
Final Fantasy VIII, Square 1999
www.humblebundle.com/store/fi...
Xenogears, Square 1998
Chrono Trigger, Square 1995
Chrono Cross, Square 1999
Suikoden 2, Konami 1998
Final Fantasy 7, Square 1997
www.humblebundle.com/store/fi...
Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 Remix, Square Enix 2013
Kingdom Hearts 2, Square Enix 2006
Kingdom Hearts 3, Square Enix 2019
Tales of Phantasia, Namco 1995
Tales of Symphonia, Bandai Namco 2003
Odin Sphere, Atlus 2007
Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, Square Enix 2004
Sword of Mana, Square Enix 2003
Dark Cloud 2, Level-5 2002
Star Ocean 3, tri-Ace 2003
Vagrant Story, Square 2000
Grandia, Game Arts 1997
Ys 6, Nihon Falcom 2003
Trials of Mana, Square 1995
Trials of Mana Remake, Square Enix 2020
Shadow of the Colossus, Team Ico 2005
Golden Sun, Nintendo 2001
Sands of Destruction, SEGA 2008
Tales of Arise, Bandai Namco 2021
Nier, Cavia 2010
Toontown, Disney 2003
Final Fantasy X, Square Enix 2001
Final Fantasy XI, Square Enix 2002
Final Fantasy XII, Square Enix 2006
Final Fantasy XIII, Square Enix 2009
Final Fantasy XIV, Square Enix 2010
Final Fantasy XV, Square Enix 2016
www.humblebundle.com/store/fi...
Final Fantasy XVI, Square Enix 2022
Broken Age, DoubleFine 2014
www.humblebundle.com/store/br...
Oxenfree, Night School Studio 2016
www.humblebundle.com/store/ox...
Firewatch, Campo Santos 2016
Life is Strange, Square Enix 2020
Persona 5, Atlus 2016
Shin Megami Tensei 5, Atlus 2021
www.humblebundle.com/store/sh...
Bravely Default II, Square Enix 2021
Dargon Quest XI, Square Enix, 2019
www.humblebundle.com/store/ps...
Soul Hackers 2, Atlus 2022
Octopath Traveler, Square Enix 2018
www.humblebundle.com/store/oc...
🎶 Music Featured 🎶
"Simple and Clean" Kingdom Hearts
“Overture” Dragon Quest
"Opening Theme" Final Fantasy
"Bob-omb Battlefield Theme Remix" Super Mario 64
"Treasured Memories" Kingdom hearts 1.5 HD Remix
"Decisive" Tales of Phantasia
"Minotaur" Vagrant Story
"Battle" Sands of Destruction
"Tidu's Theme" Final Fantasy X
"Giza Plains" Final Fantasy XII
"Broken Down" Final Fantasy XV
"Hunt or Be Hunted" Final Fantasy XV
"Beacon Beach" Oxenfree
"Ephemeral" Shin Megami Tensei V
"Wake Up (Instrumental)" Persona 5
"Always on My Mind" Kingdom Hearts
"Face My Fears" Kingdom Hearts 3
#VideoEssays #VideoGames #KingdomHearts
Check out my most recent video essay about TOXIC FANDOMS like Undertale's and how they got that way. czcams.com/video/8359Hr_u2D0/video.html
The fact that Sora became a Smash main proves how important he is as a mascot for Square Enix
Completely! I feel like nowadays it's almost a tie between him and Cloud.
I will admit. As a kid, my first time seeing Cloud was in Kingdom Hearts lmao
Slightly unrelated to the point but I also think he's the perfect mascot for crossover media which makes him a lovely final character for smash ultimate
@@filmotter lol same and I also thought cloud was an original KH character
Heya! Do you have a favorite JRPG? It can be turn-based or action-oriented. New or old. Tell me about it in the comments!
This/KH Series or FFXII/FFXIII :)
@@damnamazin FFXII is such a banger!!! And I need to play XIII soon.
Kingdom Hearts fr
Yes! It's so good!!
Well written, well edited, well narrated, just... well done. Great video Otter and Faux! I really enjoyed watching this. Also, I had never heard of livealive until the news of the remake broke and I am into it.
Same here, Chadley. It looks like something I would 100% be into and I'm excited to try it!
Great essay as always, but I have to agree with what someone else said below. Turn-based never really went away, it just lived on in other formats. The megalodon in the room being Pokemon which was a worldwide success and only had new iterations pumped out (and recycled) over the last 25 years. Maybe the genre took a backseat to MMOs, FPS and "open world" games briefly once Kingdom Hearts made a splash, but they were always there if you knew where to look - primarily on handhelds.
Heya! And thank you! Yeah, I agree with that for sure. It's definitely a genre that ebbed and flowed in popularity and I'm very happy it never went away. Some of the more obscure games on here are purely taken from my memories in the early 2000s of played turn-based games on my DS or GBA.
I would also say, personally, Pokemon almost created its own genre which is definitely linked to the history of JRPGs in a lot of ways. But it's definitely its own thing in my eyes.... That would make an interesting video possibly.
What is your favorite smt game
Chain of Memories (the GBA version) is great!!! Definitely in my top 3 of the franchise 😁
The sprite work is top tier.
Agreed! I hope we get a port of it for the 20th anniversary event. 🥰
You named quite a few of my favorites in this video. I'm just a sucker for JRPGs, KH, Star Ocean, Chrono Trigger, ect. Great Video! Also Faux killing it too!
Aww thank you, that means a lot! And hell yeah, Faux really hit it out of the park during his sections! I had a lot to live up to.
@@filmotter I NEED Y'ALL TO STOP BEING NICE TO ME
@@FauxRetro Well that's just not gonna happen, bud!
Your content is awesome man! I can’t believe your channel isn’t bigger with the quality of your essays
Thank you! That's really nice of you to say. I do my best to consistently make quality YT content, but it's just really hard to get it seen. But hey I'm doing the best I can.
Seeing comments like this really makes the process worth it though.
Finally, someone else who likes og CoM.
Yes! I love it so much!
some interesting food for thought in both the video essay itself and in the comments
thank you otter and faux for the video!
THANK YOU for watching visual media
Here before this channel is big, but man is it already great.
Haha thank you that's really nice of you to say!
Omg that smt v music around the 16:00 mark it was amazing! Thank you.
Oh yay, I'm glad someone picked up on that. I worked really hard on getting that timing just right. 🥰
I’m a big fan of JRPG fans gaining a lot more … ‘movement’ in the recent years lmaoo
In all seriousness though, this was such a cool essay! I had no idea the origins of JRPGs being tied with DnD!
Aww thanks, man! I tried to throw in some Nier references just for you bud. LOL
WOW this is genuinely one of the best videos ive seen on youtube! great video dude!
Thank you so much! It means a lot to read that. 🥰
This was a fantastic vid! Here's hoping the algorithm gives you some time in the spotlight and helps your channel grow!
Aw thank you, that's so nice of you to say! I work really hard on these videos, honestly.
Just out of curiosity, can I ask where you came across the video?
@@filmotter Sure thing! I noticed it while I was browsing my homepage, the thumbnail especially really helped me check it out.
@@radicalpokemaniacs Oh that's awesome! I was honestly agonizing over that thumbnail for days, so I'm glad it was worth the effort lol.
I appreciate the feedback, seriously.
13:22 And so, riddle me this. What were mainline Pokemon games doing during this revolutionary action oriented craze?
I mean during that time (in my admittedly biased opinion), Pokémon was kind of doing it's own thing and making its own genre. I wouldn't personally group Pokémon in with traditional turn-based JRPGs. But I know I'm in the minority for that
@filmotter What about its friends, rivals, and its one recent brother that it tried to commit fratricide against? What about Digimon, Persona, Yo-Kai Watch, and various Indie and Fan projects such as that record tape game, Pokemon Emerald, that one game that starts with Evo and I think ends in -mon? What about them? I'm just asking because I've actually watched Ludomancer's video on Game Freak and I'm wondering what was happening historically speaking around Pokemon. What was the average consumer, and to an extent the average Monster Taming genre fan, used to, and what separates the development cycle of a studio like Game Freak from that of Level 5 or The Persona Team or Bandai Namco?
Great video!!
Thank you so much! That's very kind of you.
Found a new channel with good content. It might sound shallow, but if a video's view count is low I usually don't bother to watch. I'm sure glad I decided to though. Keep up with the quality content.
I totally understand that, honestly. But thank you for giving my stuff a shot. I work really hard on the content. 🥰
I find this four step development thing of Primitive, Classical, Revisionist, and Revival. For one, I find your description of the media landscape with Turn-Based rpgs spot on. At the same time, terms like "primitive" for me are fairly politically charged statements attached to imperialism. Imperialist mindsets subconsciously color scholarship in philosophy too, and re-examining that stage of interpretation opens up what can be considered a philosophy, where it comes from, and how we analyze it. So my question to this analytical framework would be "Primitive to who?" Because games at that stage, in their own time, are the peak of innovation -> creating systems out of what is possible without anything to be based on. We could say that the entirety of the revisionist stage of development comes from people in the classical stage being unable to achieve that innovation, and the Revival stage being all about innovating on the core ideas of the primitive stage without changing the spirit of it. So perhaps it would be more semantically accurate to call it the "Innovative" stage rather than primitive. This semantic change can have a qualitative change on our perspective of the development stage. Rather than looking at the stage as failing to achieve what the classical will get right, the Innovative is about realizing a potential that always existed but counter to contemporary norms.
Totally agree with your take on the word primitive. I mostly use the term since I'm basing this cycle off of what I was taught in film school in regards to genre cycles. Next time I bring it up, I'll try coming up with a better term for it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Fun connection to the mana series. Kh is its spiritual successor
I believe it! The similarities are very much there.
Kingdom Hearts is my favourite series of all time, KH 3 is my favourite game of all time, and Square Enix is my favourite game studio
We love Kingdom Hearts in this house. 😇
1:33 - 2:30 I knew I heard that song before. That's the Elfsong Tavern from Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance.
YES! I thought it fit the vibe perfectly
I love your channel. I can't wait to see more from you.
Thank you so much! I do what I can to keeping pushing out quality content. 😇
The smallest channels have the best videos!!!!
Awww that is so kind of you to say!
Did KH end turn based combat? It's a bit more complicated than that. What I do know however is that Hiroyuki Ito the director of FF IX and creator of ATB system said that the future of the Final Fantasy series was going to be in a more action based combat style as far back as FFIV but due to technological limitations at the time they weren't able to implement that combat style.
1UP: I interviewed [Takashi] Tokita last year, and he talked about FFIV. He told me that you did have a huge part to play in the creation of the Active-Time Battle system, and that you brought your love of racing games into that.
Hiroyuki Ito: Even at the time, when games weren't doing that kind of thing, *I felt that battles in those types of games would be done in real time, eventually. That's what I predicted. What I did for that game was to say, well, how can we get it closer to real time, since we can't do it completely right now?* *That's how that whole system came about. Getting closer and closer to realtime battles.* But at the same time, I felt that if we put too much of an action element in the game, that would alienate users. The theme I came up with was an action-like game with no action elements. [laughs] That was what I was aiming for, sort of. Something without the hardcore reflex action elements.
web.archive.org/web/20130117165046/www.1up.com/features/final-fantasy-hiroyuki-ito-science
Nomura even said the idea to make KH action based was due to inspiration from Ito. So in a way KH was the idea of Final Fantasy being action based realized.
Final Fantasy Vs XIII was never supposed to be a full on main title for the series it was going to be a spinoff and the versus in the title was meant to challenge the notion of what a traditional Final Fantasy game meant.
All this to say it's as you said did Kingdom Hearts end turn based combat? No. Did it innovate and make the Action JRPG genre mainstream while also influencing traditional JRPG's? Yes.
This is a great addition to the conversation! Thank you. I have to admit I hadn't looked back at interviews from around the era of FFIV. So thank you for including that link and the additional info!
Just out of curiosity. How do you feel about that shift personally? I know it's fairly devicive among a lot of fans, so I'm just curious
@@filmotter I'm fine with it, I know there are fans of turn based and I'm okay with that too. I think what makes FF interesting was the different ways in which the series would experiment with it's battle system. No battle system plays the exact same way in the series. And you can see where KH gets it's experimental approach to it's battle system too as just like with Final Fantasy no game in the Kingdom Hearts series plays exactly the same way too.
@@meteornome2556 That's actually a really great point, I feel like the FF Battle Systems switching it up has always been a really interesting part of the series' DNA. I almost didn't even realize how much that informed the changing combat of KH as well!
What a great video! Its super interesting and makes you think. of course Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite JRPGs, but I also really enjoyed FFXV. Its similarities to KH in its combat was honestly what interested me about it in the first place, because i had never played a Final Fantasy game before. I've never been a huge fan of turn based JRPGs but with all the remakes and remasters on their way, i might have to check a few out.
Oooh yeah! I would honestly recommend trying out SMT 5. It's surprisingly fast paced for a turn-based game and it's gorgeous to boot!
Such a good look at the JRPG landscape I grew up with!
Chrono Trigger will always be my favourite JRPG and when I imagine a JRPG I will usually think of a turn-based system game first most likely because of it. It was really interesting to watch Square go from FF X's system to FF XII's more action oriented one, flip back to a more turn-based for XIII, and then flip back again for XV. I wonder if there will be another flip back to a more turn-based system in the main line games again? Or if "traditional" JRPG systems will be pushed over to one offs like the more recent Triangle Strategy?
Can't wait for the next video!
Machiiiiine. Thank you!
And if I had to guess, it looks like Square is going to make their FF adjacent titles (Octopath, Bravely, etc.) the ones that carry the turn-based tradition while making the mainline FF titles more action-focused. Just based on sales, I feel like that makes the most sense.
It's like a video was made in a lab just for me
I think one angle that's kind of missing here is the role of technology on the dev side changing what's possible. Turn-based and random battles were a necessary abstraction early on because it was impossible to portray those things in a representative way. Then, as the entire industry marched towards realistic graphics, eventually we could have all these enemies on the overworld and engage them directly in a way that looked really good. And as characters looked better and better in 3D, it kind of became awkward to have these realistic humans standing around, waiting to be told what to do. Meanwhile, games were becoming much more expensive to make, so if they wanted to put the budget into making the game look amazing, they also needed to do what would appeal to the widest audience and chase spectacle.
I think we're seeing a renaissance now partially because we've hit a point where the move towards realism is only taking incremental steps, ie. it's already really fucking good and there isn't that much more to be done. Straight technological improvements aren't that impressive anymore, swinging the pendulum back towards improvements in style. And turn-based combat was always a stylized representation of the real thing, so it becomes a space where devs say Hey, maybe we can do something interesting with this, push it even further. Thus, Persona 5, alongside smaller titles like Voice of Cards because if you're not going for high fidelity graphics then you can do things on a smaller budget, too.
This is a big reason why I wish Breath of Fire hadn't died. The series has its peaks and valleys but it is always at the top of the art game for its era. BoFIV has some of the best pixel art of all time, and even Dragon Quarter made the move to 3D gracefully (aesthetically speaking, at least!) by taking cues from the best-looking 3D PS1 game, Vagrant Story. I'm confident they would have continued pushing the envelope visually and been a standout alternative to the push towards realism in the genre. (edit: fixed a typo)
This is honestly a great point all around, thank you for adding it! You're right. The technology change definitely had to have been a factor. I will be honest though, finding notation about the hardware side of things was really difficult in terms of the older titles.
But in terms of realism, I completely agree. The steps are so small we barely even notice them anymore, so the more abstract a title is the more revolutionary it feels nowadays.
Square enix: let's shift final fantasy series gameplay to action RPG
Sega: let's shift yakuza series gameplay from fighting/beat em up to turn based RPG
Right? I think that's a really interesting reversal of expectations for both companies!
Faux told me to come back and make fun of him in the comments. So uhhhh.... Faux made a silly voice and it made me giggle. For shame Faux, why did you make me giggle?
Not the GIGGLE! I'm so sorry, I'll have to talk to him about this.
THE SHAME I FEEL
@@FauxRetro as you freakin' should!
not the dmca blur opening lmfao
LMAO I know right? I figure it went with the chip tune remix!
don't think kh killed turned based just think with length of development time and ff13 not being 7's successor it was the natural next path. plus really no .hack mention in this they were def important to the real time system going mainstream. otherwise we probably would have actually got xenosaga 6.anyhow great video never actually thought of this, well, this way
Nice video, would love a more in-depth look at how Kingdom Hearts combined the 3d platformer genre with the RPG genre 😁
The most popular modern jrpgs are turn based though. Persona 5, SMTV, DQ11, Pokemon Sword and Shield. I actually can't even think of a single action rpg that has come out recently. Is FF7 remake even a jrpg at this point? It plays more like an action game then an rpg
Completely agree! The last section of the video is all about how turn based JRPGs are making a huge comeback recently. Especially on the Switch.
And as for FF7 Remake, I'd definitely say it's leaning into the action aspects hard. But the stat management does still keep it pretty connected to JRPGs imo. Did you enjoy FF7 Remake despite the action nature of it btw?
@@filmotter I left the comment before the end of the video. I actually loved FF7 remake, I started it last month and got a Platinum trophy this week. The only game I have ever Platinum'd. I think it being more of an action game gave the game a more cinematic feel and while I love traditional RPGs, I never got far in FF7 the original because I tried the game in the PS3/Wii/Xbox 360 era and imo the game had too many dated gameplay elements for me to get into. Namely random encounters. There's a reason Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, SMRPG etc aged well and that's because they didn't have invisible random encounters that take you out of the game. That said, I just re-bought it for ps4 and I'm going to give it a second try so I can know the whole story before ff7R part 2.
Congrats in the Platinum! I love Remake, but like you, I never really got into the original growing up so my only real experience with FF7 is in the form of the Remake. I'm really excited to see where the story goes because I really have no idea. Except for that one thing that most people know about. 😢
And I completely agree about how well games like Chrono Trigger aged because if the innovation they showed in the JRPG genre. So great!
I absolutely love dragon quest it's all I make videos about here on CZcams because it has changed my life
Such a great franchise! I need to play some of the entries that I missed. Like 3-7! How do you feel about the remakes and remasters of the original by the way?
@@filmotter I'm actually so excited for the dragon quest 3 hd2d remake. Of all the games team asano is giving the hd 2d treatment too it's my most anticipated. Of course because Dragon Quest is my favorite franchise.
Definitely
Interesting topic, and you’re missing a loooooot of important points here.
(long comment, I had to cut in 2, sorry)
First of all, Tales of Phantasia (1996) was not an « early » action-RPG. Have you ever heard of Dragon Slayer (1984, yes that’s older than the first Dragon Quest), Xanadu (1985), Ys (1987) or even Seiken Densetsu (1991 aka the first in the mana series, which first episode was called Final Fantasy Adventure in NA and Mystic Quest in Europe) ? Heck, even Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (1987) is an Action-RPG. The japanese action-RPG formula is much older than what you tend to (surprisingly) claim here. Statistics, Experience, magics or skills, NPC, villages, menus : the whole package.
Neither turn based nore action RPG ever became THE standard for RPG in Japan. Both coexisted since the beginning. And if you « feel » it might have been the case, because certain games had more success than others, then you are just looking at the tip of the iceberg, really.
If you want to talk about 3D Action-RPG, I’ll agree Kingdom Hearts is probably the first succesful one that came from Japan (with no « wait » time as you mentioned). But lots of Action-Adventure games paved the way for its success. Some of them contained lots of Action-RPG elements. Most notably Zelda OOT. If any game of the era can hold the title, « revolutionary » here, with its lock system, 3rd person view/analog controlled/main character seen from the back, that’s the one. What has KH done gameplay wise that wasn’t already there in Zelda OOT ? Multiple characters and action menus ? That was already there Secret/Trials/Legend of Mana… KH just mixed pre-existing gameplay elements, just like Seiken Densetsu/Final Fantasy Adventure/Mystic Quest did before in its time by mixing the old FF formula with old Zelda one.
I can only figure out 2 series that moved from turn-based to action-based since 2000, that's it (FF of course, the other being the Shining Force/Soul/Whatever, I honestly didn’t follow). It was or is not even an actual trend otherwise. There were or is still plenty of turned based J-RPG that got or get released every year (Baten Kaitos, Shadow Hearts, Shin Megami Tensei/Persona 3 being the most notorious ones in the 2000, Bravely Default, Radiant Historia, the Legend of Heroes and Etrian Odyssey for the early 2010, and I’m probably missing other obvious picks). I can’t even point out a moment Pokemon wasn’t sucessful anymore…
And even when looking at Final Fantasy, the fact it went from turn-based to more action-oriented cannot be related to Kingdom Hearts, at least not exclusively, far from it. Action-RPG in FF first happened way before with, again, the first Seiken Densetsu (the NA title « Final Fantasy Adventure » was also its original subtitle, and it's not just a subtitle, you can really spot the "final fantasy" in this game). If I remember well, the first FF Crystal Chronicle was announced before KH was released. Same for chosing Yasumi Matsuno as director of Final Fantasy XII (the idea of the game was to build a multi-character Vagrant Story).
In my opinion, the fact the FF series changed for good after FFX is related to 2 things that happened around the same time :
- The failure of Final Fantasy The Spirits Within led Hironobu Sakuguchi to resign from Squaresoft, which led the Final Fantasy series to be overtaken by multiple people with different visions for the series.
- The democratisation of Internet, with its online gaming, and with it MMORPG. Try to make a multiplayer turn based RPG fun to play... Good luck! (I hope one day video game developpers will be inspired by the Arkham Horror card game mechanics though, I believe thus could work…) So action-oriented RPG did not become more and more of a trend in the MMORPG world (as you are saying regarding FFXIV? I’m not sure I followed your point regarding this game). It’s the unique solution which was focused on so far, since the days of Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Ragnarock Online, Phantasy Star Online and whatever, all of these having been released way before KH. Then the MMORPG trend influenced solo RPG way more than Kingdom Hearts on its own did. See FFXII or Xenoblade Chronicles for the most obvious examples, as you mentioned for at least the former.
The fact that the current FF trend (for XVI and origins, at least) is more action-oriented is related to the much more recent success of Nier Automata (and more remotely, the Dark Soul / Bloodborne / Nioh / etc trend, see how FFXVI has only one character, it seems, unlike KH). If there are 2 games which were influenced by KH, it’s FFXV and FFVIIR. But it’s not hard to know why, as Testsuya Nomura was the director of all 3… auto-influence is NOT a thing. I do hope that FFVIIR will influence other developpers though, really. But as of now, only Nomura is following this particular trend...
You could argue that regarding new J-RPG series, more action-oriented ones got more easily successful than turn based ones since the release of KH (Xenoblade Chronicles, Ni No Kuni, Nier, etc.). That it's not only about Final Fantasy. But even then, in terms of trigger, please look at what happened in the West first, the big picture. Turn based RPG in the west is mostly something of the past (quite the opposite of J-RPG), and this changed before the release of KH. During the 2000 and early 2010, trends in western RPG were far much more influencial on Japanese trends than any single game (or even series) ever.
The reason Western RPG turned to action is because turn based combat was never a finality of RPG as defined in the west, but rather a mean to achieve complex roleplay gameplay. As soon as video-games could offer enough solutions to create something as realistic and complete as possible action-wise, turn based gameplay was progressively abandonned. There’s probably still a niche of western turn based RPG I am unaware of (such as Might and Magic X which was released quite a while ago now…), but I believe this is mostly considered retro gaming now (which is not the case of japanase turn based RPG, sorry).
Regarding the influence of the west on Japan, the fact Microsoft entered the console market around the same era led Western RPG to be more frequently adapted to consoles (see KOTOR/Fable/The Elders Scoll/Mass Effect…). And with it, PC developpers saw an opportunity to sell more games, since PC gamers were pirating games (more than ever thanks to Internet and CD burners, and much less than console gamers). Due to different factors that I’ll come back to, Western Action RPG started to sell more than Japanese turn-based RPG in the mid 2000... If any action-oriented trend emerged in Japan (but again, I disagree on that), I believe that’s where you should be looking at first to determine its origin. What I agree with though, is that turn-based J-RPG golden era came to an end during the early 2000.
But that wasn’t specific to turn-based RPG. Western console games in general started to sell more than japanese games. And that’s more related to their respective graphical performances, than any gameplay related standard. The fact that Microsoft’s Xbox and then Xbox 360 architecture was close to PC, and more importantly that Xbox 360 came at a cheaper price and earlier than the PS3 on the market also played a huge role in that.
The graphical supremacy of the west between 2006 and 2015 (give or take) was explained by the fact western developpers were always focused on making realistic graphics (not just for brownish FPS/TPS), unlike Japanese developpers who were rather trying to stylize reality (influenced by what has always been done in mangas). When the technology finally allowed realistic 3D graphics to shine, Japan took a blow. And that was true for any genra, not just Turn-Based JRPG.
One of the rare japanese company which was following the same « realistic » ideal graphically speaking was From Software (see how King’s Field aged as poorly as Daggerfall, compared to J-RPG of the same era). No wonder they finally met some success with Demon/Dark Soul. Way before most other Japanese companies (with the notable exception of Nintendo, which has its own thing)
There are also cultural aspects that are to be considered regarding this West vs East thing. HD screens quickly spread in houses in the mid/late 2000 in the western world, and western developpers ran alongside the trend. But Japanese houses are much smaller than US/European ones (due to higher population density), so large screens were not a priority for most japanese families back then. Tokyo is also the biggest megalopole in the world, therefore a lot of Japanese spend a lot of time in public transports. So, Japanese developpers, in particular RPG ones, were more focused on mobile gaming and the latest generation of handheld consoles… The fact they kept selling well in Japan, their main target for J-RPG, just encouraged the trend. The protectionism of Japan also encourages developpers to develop for Japanese hardware as a priority. Same can be said about local buyers buying Japanese hardware. See how Mistwalker’s Blue Dragon/Lost Odyssey failed in Japan due to their exclusive releases on Xbox 360.
The situation (ie Japan Games lower sales in the West) was agravated by the fact that regarding the few remaining AAA games that were still released back then from Japan, a lot of japanese developpers tried to mimic what was succesful in the west in the late 2000/early 2010, rather than simply try to graphically improve what they were actually good at. There was also a trend to externalize and rely on western companies to develop japanese games. See Mercury Steam for Castlevania Lord of Shadow, one of the rare successful « japanese » game of that era, unlike the Bionic Comando reboot, and even later the first version of FFVII remake which was restarted from scratch after its outsourcing failed, etc. This explains why Japanese action RPG games such as Dragon Dogma were released, much more than any influence from KH at this point. So I also disagree on the fact FFXV would have « started » anything.
Fortunately for us, Japan has caught up. But again, you can’t pin that on one single game, ie Persona 5. Development cycles are now way too long for one game to turn the market on its own nowadays. Sony’s PS4 simple architecture (compared to PS3’s) and success overworld is probably a bigger root cause for this change of trend. Also, the Nintendo Switch’s hybridness (and forfeit of Sony for this market) helped bringing back handheld games back to the TV in the living room. Octopath Traveller would never have seen the light of day on anything else than a handheld otherwise. Also, the graphic technology has reached some kind of peak. It is now much more limited by budget constraints than technical capabilities. Japanese developers learned from their mistakes. So Japan games (not just turn based RPG) are more polished graphic wise and therefore successful these last years. The gap between the west and the east has been narrowed. And that’s what mainstream looks at. That’s what explained FFVII sudden success back in 1997 too. That’s what explains JRPG’s lack of appeal for the mainstream western audiences in the late 2000/early 2010. That’s it, none of this is related to Kingdom Hearts (or FFXV or Persona 5 or any game on its own).
The fact Kingdom Hearts was released around the time Final Fantasy turned to action is a pure coincidence. The fact you ever felt there were more action-RPG than turn-based RPG is a biased view. And I love Kingdom Hearts (the first one at least), but this game did not revolutionize J-RPG. The answer to the question in your title is no, simply no. The best thing you can tell about KH is that it brought multi character action-RPG into full 3D. Which is already quite an achievement. And all that combo action-packed argumentation doesn’t work as well… Look at Legend of Thor/Beyond Oasis on Genesis, Terranigma on SNES or the Quest mode of Tobal 2 on PS1. Except for the fact their progression system is not ruled by traditional XP, it’s as good if not better in terms of action compared to KH… KH did not bring much to the table in that aspect. Compared to these other games, it’s actually quite clumsy in terms of controls, as you have to navigate the menus in real time with an analog stick.
If Kingdom Hearts was as influencial as you claim it to be, then its whole formula would have been copied a dozen times, including the universe mashup. Let’s face it, it’s unique in that aspect… which wasn't copied. So in terms of influence, it’s just one game among so many others.
Chain of Memories is your favorite? Who hurt you otter? D:
Just kidding. That series had a pretty rough but rewarding combat system, once I figured out what the hell was going on with it.
Who hurt me? Where do I begin? 🤣
Ugh, hate the guest star.
UGH the other guy's even WORSE
Dragon Quest XI adding played-controlled free character movement to the turn-based battles which does nothing other than let you match your characters across the screen while you select moves is one of my favorite things
Oh my god. Honestly I might play it JUST for that feature alone 🤣
I honestly believe it did. Other than Pokémon lol
Imagine you can move freely and avoid Being attack without speed stat and you can hit enemy everytime.
Speed stat is stupid in JRPG but If the game dont have speed stat that mean the enemys will move very fast like sephiroth did with a lot HP Bullsht instead.🤯
I like rpg games to play like DMC and call it an action rpg and less story more action. Its a sacrifice story just for fun of the game. Im just joking, if KH was more like DarkSouls that would be more fun for me. Monster Hunter also.
"you can grind on the bus" Weird spelling of pooping.
no it didnt just look at dragon quest 11 or yakuza 7 both amazing jrpgs
You're right! And both RPGs I mention towards the end of the video. 😅
Not really, it's still in rivalry with SMT3
I never really liked turn based RPGs. I eventually got into them a little but still not my favorite style of RPG. I actually enjoy the style of old school CRPGS better.
Considering there are still countless turn based JRPG's being made today, and there have been tons of them since Kingdom Hearts first came out, the title is somewhat of a dumb question.
The video itself addresses the question. And I agree with you. In the video I list a lot of great JRPGs that came after KH.
Nah it never died it just moved to handhelds.
Agreed! The last section of the video talks about their success over on handheld. And how P5 brought the genre back into the mainstream. 🥰
I assume you enjoy P5 😁
ps2 mana came b4 this and every mana game b4 kh was like this so... no
Totally agree and it's a fair point. I discuss this and earlier Tales of titles in the video.
Every Mana game before Kingdom Hearts like Legend of Mana was sprite based, sure it was an action JRPG series but it never utilized the 3D environment like KH1 sought out to do much like Mario N64. Not even other Squaresoft action JRPG games like Parasite Eve and Vagrant Story did it.
@@meteornome2556 Very well said, honestly. Completely agree with this take.
FF7 Remake's combat system is a perfect blend between the 2 styles of gameplay, and if they abandon it for FF16, i'm going to be way less excited for it
AGREED! Yeah that combat system needs to come back in some way in future titles. It was so satisfying to me.
JRPG don't exists.
Lmao Ah, I see.
@@filmotter What you call it a jrpg is a combat theatre.
Where actors tell a story with a fight. Some call that a playable anime, what isn't wrong.
And even though of turn base game going to end, calls for the checkmate.
I hope so. That genre needs to die.
Why do you say that? Just curious.
@@filmotter because the fighting completely destroys the flow of the story. And on a personal note when I play or watch someone else play them. All the bs menus and options on screen make me feel like puking. They literally make me feel sick. Not sure why. Plus there is just something about them that is just bad. I can't explain it. The stories seem fine until I see how they are executed. There's just something off about them.
@@doesntmatter1324 ah. I see where you're coming from. I've always enjoyed them because I find them relaxing, honestly. But what types of games do you normally play?
@@filmotter fps, builder, rpg.
@@doesntmatter1324 ah gotcha! I feel like I need to get back into FPS games. A few strong titles have been released lately for sure.