"Your game is 10 times more complex than you think." Very thought provoking. I've gotten great playtest feedback in the vein of "consider all the rules in your game and determine if they are absolutely necessary." An on the Fun Problems podcast Peter C. Hayward spoke about every rule in your game costing "1 fun". Each rule must generate more fun than it costs.
Just submitted my first ever game design to the ButtonShy Holiday competition! I have been working on a couple games over the past year or so (not 18 card games) but they were always only ever for "me." It was an enjoyable side hobby and because the games were themes i wanted but doesnt really currently exist; and I didnt really have the long term goal attempting to show it to anyone by my wife... But this Button shy game was the first every design that was made with the intention of being "submitted" to a publisher. If i win or not, it's was exciting to work through a design from scratch to "finish." And exciting to present the game to strangers and online people to try playtesting. Your channel has been a help for a long while now, even for the casual/closet designer such as my self.
You didn't say why you advised us to create a junior version of our game, but I followed suit anyway. It enables my strictly-2-player game to become a 3-player game too. The game potentially might remain the same fun with fewer rules. And it's not so long now. Your advice is 10 times more powerful than you think!
Thanks, yes - it’s advice I commonly give to designers when their game is too complex (and they don’t realise it). Their “junior” edition is actually likely to be much closer to the average person’s complexity level. And a genuine “kids” version would probably need to be several degrees simpler again… I’m really glad you found it actionable advice - and it got results! :)
I'm really enjoying this series and insight. As someone in publishing (not of games!), I'd always agree that simple politeness goes a long way. Over in our part of the industry, it's always fair to follow up on a simultaneous submission and ask, "Will it be possible to get a response by [specific but realistic timeframe]?" As you also ask the publisher who did make an offer if you can have until [timeframe] to review the terms of their exciting offer. I think this is reassuring to everyone that you'll be a pleasant person to work with. Now, this is all my experience from NOT board game publishing, so maybe things are different, but my motto is: Just don't be obnoxious about it 😄
The Rugby thing is soooooo true. Been sitting with a rugby game as idea but stop start and play moves makes it feel more like Dungeon Bowl. Kind of making a rugby game feel like a TTRPG then sports game😂.
The complexity idea is really interesting, I definitely have struggled with finding the right balance so that there still is an element of choice and decision making but not having too many options. I know I’ve simplified rules and felt like it just becomes kind of flat and seems like I made more of something that works but doesn’t necessarily feel worth playing and getting others to play.
I think you have to be guided by your playtests (especially blind tests). If your players are not struggling, and they are having fun, then you may not need to simplify. But if they find the game hard to learn or understand, don’t blame them - that’s a problem with the game!
That makes sense, I guess it’s partly trying to feel like I have something figured out enough to put others through the playtesting experience. I know I need to just make it happen but it’s intimidating not knowing if it’ll be a fun experience for others.
regarding pitching to multiple people... as opposed to pressuring, once you've made a decision on who to sign with, do you email the other publishers to let them know?
Yes, but the timing can be tricky. There are often a few stages to this: 1. The publisher says “We’re very interested. Is the game still available? We’ll make a final decision in the next XXXX days.” 2. The publisher makes a broad offer. “We’ve decided we’d like to publish the game. Can we discuss terms?” 3. The publisher makes an offer - laying out their standard terms. 4. The publisher sends an unsigned contract. There follows a short period of negotiation. 5. The publisher and designer signs the contract. 6. The advance payment is received. These all represent varying levels of commitment. At what point should the designer inform other interested publishers? I’ve sometimes done it as Stage 1, informing other publishers that an offer is pending, and I anticipate making a decision on a specific date, so if they want to be considered, could they let me know by then. In my experience, this pressure can push the other publishers away. “We’re not yet in a position to move forward; we’d suggest you take your alternative offer”. Discussing with other publishers during stages 2-4 ‘feels’ dishonest because at that stage it is likely you will sign with the publisher who has made the offer. But these things still fall apart in the final negotiation so you don’t want to burn bridges by informing the other publishers too soon. On the other hand, if you don’t inform them they might waste their time playtesting your game when it’s not really available - and that could cause bad feeling. I have had the situation where I sign the contract, then the SAME day another publisher makes an offer out of the blue - but they’re too late. It’s awkward, because they feel aggrieved that you haven’t informed them of the pending offer and given them the chance to match it. But you know that informing them before the contract is signed can scare them off. After several signed contracts resulting in no published game, I never feel truly safe until I’ve received an advance. But I think it’s reasonable to inform other publishers as soon as you have a signature on a contract. That does risk other publishers wasting their time testing your game during that week or two of negotiation. I’m very conflict-averse, and aim to respect everybody’s time. But ultimately this is a business arrangement, and you can’t prioritise others’ comfort over your own security. Everything before that signature is just talk. It can (and does) evaporate into nothing.
"Your game is 10 times more complex than you think." Very thought provoking. I've gotten great playtest feedback in the vein of "consider all the rules in your game and determine if they are absolutely necessary." An on the Fun Problems podcast Peter C. Hayward spoke about every rule in your game costing "1 fun". Each rule must generate more fun than it costs.
Thanks for another great video, Adam. You've mastered the conversational tone. :)
Thanks! I’m glad the rambling isn’t too off putting! It feels strange after using scripts for so long! :)
@@AdaminWales It's strange? It's gold!
Just submitted my first ever game design to the ButtonShy Holiday competition! I have been working on a couple games over the past year or so (not 18 card games) but they were always only ever for "me." It was an enjoyable side hobby and because the games were themes i wanted but doesnt really currently exist; and I didnt really have the long term goal attempting to show it to anyone by my wife... But this Button shy game was the first every design that was made with the intention of being "submitted" to a publisher. If i win or not, it's was exciting to work through a design from scratch to "finish." And exciting to present the game to strangers and online people to try playtesting. Your channel has been a help for a long while now, even for the casual/closet designer such as my self.
Good luck with the competition! Glad the channel has been helpful :)
You didn't say why you advised us to create a junior version of our game, but I followed suit anyway. It enables my strictly-2-player game to become a 3-player game too. The game potentially might remain the same fun with fewer rules. And it's not so long now. Your advice is 10 times more powerful than you think!
Thanks, yes - it’s advice I commonly give to designers when their game is too complex (and they don’t realise it). Their “junior” edition is actually likely to be much closer to the average person’s complexity level.
And a genuine “kids” version would probably need to be several degrees simpler again…
I’m really glad you found it actionable advice - and it got results! :)
I'm really enjoying this series and insight. As someone in publishing (not of games!), I'd always agree that simple politeness goes a long way. Over in our part of the industry, it's always fair to follow up on a simultaneous submission and ask, "Will it be possible to get a response by [specific but realistic timeframe]?" As you also ask the publisher who did make an offer if you can have until [timeframe] to review the terms of their exciting offer. I think this is reassuring to everyone that you'll be a pleasant person to work with. Now, this is all my experience from NOT board game publishing, so maybe things are different, but my motto is: Just don't be obnoxious about it 😄
Sounds very similar to game publishing in my experience. Thanks for watching and commenting! :)
Great insights as always Adam !
Thanks Paul. Hope you’re well.
I've followed this channel so attentively that I can guess most of the topics just from the hint. =D the ''hook'' one was immediate!
Excellent! Every video brings great design and advice for new designers!
The Rugby thing is soooooo true. Been sitting with a rugby game as idea but stop start and play moves makes it feel more like Dungeon Bowl. Kind of making a rugby game feel like a TTRPG then sports game😂.
The complexity idea is really interesting, I definitely have struggled with finding the right balance so that there still is an element of choice and decision making but not having too many options. I know I’ve simplified rules and felt like it just becomes kind of flat and seems like I made more of something that works but doesn’t necessarily feel worth playing and getting others to play.
I think you have to be guided by your playtests (especially blind tests). If your players are not struggling, and they are having fun, then you may not need to simplify. But if they find the game hard to learn or understand, don’t blame them - that’s a problem with the game!
That makes sense, I guess it’s partly trying to feel like I have something figured out enough to put others through the playtesting experience. I know I need to just make it happen but it’s intimidating not knowing if it’ll be a fun experience for others.
This series is great. It's honest and nonperformative. Thanks
Hey thanks for making these videos. I have found them helpful and entertaining. Cheers!
Only 1 thing better than Instants, & that's...Interrupts⚡
For TCG players
...you've activated my Trap Card!
regarding pitching to multiple people... as opposed to pressuring, once you've made a decision on who to sign with, do you email the other publishers to let them know?
Yes, but the timing can be tricky. There are often a few stages to this:
1. The publisher says “We’re very interested. Is the game still available? We’ll make a final decision in the next XXXX days.”
2. The publisher makes a broad offer. “We’ve decided we’d like to publish the game. Can we discuss terms?”
3. The publisher makes an offer - laying out their standard terms.
4. The publisher sends an unsigned contract. There follows a short period of negotiation.
5. The publisher and designer signs the contract.
6. The advance payment is received.
These all represent varying levels of commitment. At what point should the designer inform other interested publishers?
I’ve sometimes done it as Stage 1, informing other publishers that an offer is pending, and I anticipate making a decision on a specific date, so if they want to be considered, could they let me know by then. In my experience, this pressure can push the other publishers away. “We’re not yet in a position to move forward; we’d suggest you take your alternative offer”.
Discussing with other publishers during stages 2-4 ‘feels’ dishonest because at that stage it is likely you will sign with the publisher who has made the offer. But these things still fall apart in the final negotiation so you don’t want to burn bridges by informing the other publishers too soon. On the other hand, if you don’t inform them they might waste their time playtesting your game when it’s not really available - and that could cause bad feeling.
I have had the situation where I sign the contract, then the SAME day another publisher makes an offer out of the blue - but they’re too late. It’s awkward, because they feel aggrieved that you haven’t informed them of the pending offer and given them the chance to match it. But you know that informing them before the contract is signed can scare them off.
After several signed contracts resulting in no published game, I never feel truly safe until I’ve received an advance. But I think it’s reasonable to inform other publishers as soon as you have a signature on a contract. That does risk other publishers wasting their time testing your game during that week or two of negotiation. I’m very conflict-averse, and aim to respect everybody’s time. But ultimately this is a business arrangement, and you can’t prioritise others’ comfort over your own security.
Everything before that signature is just talk. It can (and does) evaporate into nothing.
@@AdaminWales thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for your valuable input.