Double Axes II: Is History Weirder Than Fantasy? (Not so Stupid After All)
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2021
- Watch part 1 first: Are Double Axes REALLY That Stupid? (Reply to Shadiversity)
• Are Double Axes REALLY...
What we armchair enthusiasts think about realism and practicality is one thing, but what about real-life historical people? What did they consider practical? Well, intentions are hard to deduce, especially the further back in time you go, but we can at least look at available evidence.
Did double headed axes exist for real? Yes. They weren't common by any means, but there are some archaeological finds, mentions in ancient texts, and depictions in medieval imagery. Let's take a closer look... Some of these will probably surprise you with how strange they seem.
If you expect double-edged Viking axes you'll be disappointed... but ironically they did exist in what is now Scandinavia, just made of stone, and much earlier (Neolithic / Chacolithic).
** Sources **
Neolithic / chalcolithic stone / copper axes
www.ancient-origins.net/human...
www.megalithic-visions.org/wp...
tinyurl.com/chalcolithiccoppe...
www.catawiki.com/en/l/2874505...
www.britishmuseum.org/collect...
Minoan bronze axe heads
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
www.salimbeti.com/micenei/weap...
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
www.pilotguides.com/study-gui...
www.diva-portal.org/smash/rec...
antiquatedantiquarian.blogspo...
Another great example of a functional double bitted tool with evidence of wear from use
www.britishmuseum.org/collect...
About Minoan religion
tinyurl.com/minoaninscription
www.degruyter.com/document/do...
Luristani bronze axe-adze hybrid
www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...
Other examples from ancient Greece
www.salimbeti.com/micenei/weap...
Scythian axe head
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Alani axes
neolitica.ru/index.php?r_id=37
English auto-translation from Russian
translate.google.com/translat...
Crimean examples
swordmaster.org/forum/cat-Oru...
Byzantine axes
protostrator.blogspot.com/201...
Great source for medieval imagery
manuscriptminiatures.com/tags
Double halberd, 1600
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
French halberd, 17th century
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
French halberd, 1712
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Indo-Persian ceremonial or battle axes (uncertain)
www.militariahub.com/indo-per...
www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos...
Fascinating all-steel axe with hidden stiletto
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
From the Sudan
auctionsimperial.hibid.com/lo...
www.ashokaarts.com/shop/fasci...
Various types from China
wukong.toutiao.com/question/6...
The Fang Tian Ji
zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/方天戟
Native American finds
www.bradfordsauction.com/auct...
www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...
Roman historian Quintus Curtius
www.loebclassics.com/view/qui...
18thC Spanish war axe (potentially questionable source)
www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb...
** Music **
Outtakes:
"Little People At Work" by Horrorpen
opengameart.org/content/littl...
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 license (CC BY 3.0)
Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
theslantedroom.github.io/stev...
Used with artist's permission
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Yes, fantasy tries to make a "realistic" world that the reader can look and say:"that makes sense". History doesn't have that confinements, history is made of stupid rulers making stupid decisions with stupid people doing awesome acts and things that *DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT WORK* somehow work.
In WW2 a group of Brazilian soldiers decided to make a campfire because they were feeling cold and in turn revealed the position of the troops, the germans did not attack however because "no one would be stupid enough to light a fire and reveal their position" they thought it was a trap and didn't go.
Edit: I wrote rules and not rulers so yeah
That ww2 was hilarious
History often has the most interesting stories because they don’t have to be imagined first but are always so easy to imagine once you hear about them
When talking about historical items I often hear the phrase "people in the past were not stupid" but while I get what is usually meant by it I always think, well statistically some of them were. Even in the modern day we have products and weapons that are failures but have been made in some number. Future archaeologists could well find them and wonder hwhy or how they were used given they seem poor.
@@101Mant We think the same way as people did in the past. I've been doing a lot of local historical research lately and have been reading 100-plus-year-old newspapers, and it's amazing how many things they talked about are still talking points for us today. Humor was the same back then as it is now, too... comedians still joke about the same parts of the "human condition" that they did then. People in the past had amazing ingenuity, and we still do today, but we have a higher level of technology, built on the foundation they created in the past. We still aspire to the same ideals and desires as they did back then.
Even in the modern day we have snake oil like we had back then - someone is always trying to make a quick buck on the promise of a miracle cure. Thankfully people have realized they need to record history, so now we can look back at the history and find instances of these things happening... and HOPEFULLY learn not to repeat it, although as a species we are DOOMED to repeat it by our very nature.
@@John-ir4id I was just thinking about this earlier. There’s a simplicity to nature where you make the wrong move and it costs you. Theres more on the line.
In the past, making a stupid decision could mean you getting killed... now days we have so many safety nets that we throw caution to the breeze and do whatever we want, and rarely suffer any serious consequence. For example, just getting wet 1000 years ago could have meant hypothermia or getting sick and dying. Now getting wet isn’t even a concern at all for most people
We (society) have come so far from that cut and dry simplicity of nature and, kind of like you said, stupidity is now accommodated and accepted. If we were stripped of all modern societal structure and technology, most of the earths population would die in a few months. That’s my opinion anyway lol
True, in fact WE LIVE in a time with stupid rulers making stupid decisions with stupid people, however the awesome acts are missing.
I think it's obvious what the giant Minoan axes were for--their minotaurs!
I've consulted Castlevania, and this checks out.
:o
What? Mind The Door? Everybody knows the best weapon is door.
@@chengkuoklee5734 Dark Souls 3 would agree
Their Minotaur *kings* surely.
The giant axes weren't made for giant people. Geeze, they were of course made for regular sized cyclopses.
No no no, they are from Crete. So obviously they were for the Minotaurs so they could fight off the invading Cyclopses from Sicily.
Pretty obvious what with the -mammoth- cyclops skulls found in ancient Greece.
Wrong again, you see, the cyclops where actually from members of the Loxodon race (one knows them from D&D) which's skulls then got misinterpreted as one- eyed cyclops.
Got me.
Actually the correct spelling is "cyclopes" - yes that's my only contribution here. You're welcome.
[NOTE] At 12:54 there are a few seconds of video missing, where I mention the name of the Roman historian (Quintus Curtius). Sorry about that, folks... there was lots of editing and I've been a little over-worked lately.
And if you haven't seen part 1 yet: czcams.com/video/IHvgG3UsYqI/video.html
No worries Skall! It's a fantastic video.
Make sure you take enough time gor yourself, too, my friend. We'd all rather you be in good health than make one or two more videos than you would have by overworking yourself.
Tineye reverse image search is something You ought to know about Skall. :)
@@Fish-ub3wn I use reverse image search all the time when researching topics like this.
Hey so.. it was quite nice of you to blur the picture.. but isnt the same picture on the lower part of the screen and like.. not blurred :o - Also great Video as per ususal!
Yeah, the video that contains 33 minutes of fascinating detail is now useless because of this few seconds... honestly I was mesmerised and after a hard week at work, I needed something interesting and different, so thank you, really.
I always love it when Skall finds these kinds of weapons that I thought would only have 2-3 historical examples. Like the trident video he made, that was great. I just hope his vids will gain the favor of the algorithm again. Keep up the great work, man.
Thank you.
@@Skallagrim thank you for all the great vids
3 cheers for Skall! Excellent research, presentation and humour.
@@Skallagrim 🤣🤣 you calling shad out?!
Skall is awesome like that. Don't get me wrong shad is great but let's ego and arrogance sway his views. Skall will say something and if gr feels wrong cones back what a "guess what guys video. His opinion isn't drawn and based on one video
The stone axe at 3:35 with the offset hole is definitely a woodsmans tool. The short side is basically a splitting wedge and the longer side has a much finer bit for chopping. Very cool.
Other cultures from history: different two headed axes of various geometries and levels of symmetry.
China: Death Paddle.
They have achieved weaponized frying pans
In daytime a weapon, in nighttime a tool in the bedroom
That weapon/tool made me think of the monk's spade, though we didn't get to see the other end, and the source might not have shown it. Though I guess there might be some debate about just how common that tool (that could be used as a weapon) was too.
Might not have been the greatest against fully armored opponents, but how often do you come across those anyway outside of an actual battlefield? Against lightly armored, or more likely UNarmored attackers, or animals, it'd be perfectly functional.
Aztecs be like
"that's a paddlin'"
I, for one, am fully in support of more topless women carrying axes for self-defense.
I believe in female warrior supremacy
If this presentation had been a lecture during a University course, i would feel that my tuition money had been well spent.
There was a historian that said something like the further we get from the actual date in history, the more skewed that view of history becomes. When you said that it was hard to tell if something was used in battle or not, I thought about that. This was very good by the way. Really enjoy your content.
On seeing the neolithic stone axes:
"Less random and clumsy than a bow. A more elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
Its interesting that the idea of a double axe has been a symbol of 'cool' for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Shows that while humanity changes, humanity doesn't change.
Same goes for horned helmets. The ultimate synthesis would be double-axe helmets, are there any sources on this? 😂
@@freshhands9461 The game Clash: Artifacts of Chaos has a boss by name of Moon-Sun who wears a helmet/hat hybrid that looks like a gold-colored skull to cover the face except the eyes, with side flangs looking like big axe blades, and the top is like a hollowed-out capirote or wizard hat with a blue sky with stars painted on it.
@@jurtheorc8117 I shall look for him next time I visit Zenozoik :)
I really admire the craftsman that worked with stone, stone is such a shitty material to work with even in modern times.
And thinking about the many many hours of carefully crafting a stone tool with other stone tools like those seen in the video boggles my mind everytime.
Nah, grab a river rock and start grinding it against a smoth boulder with some wet sand on it. Done in 4 hours.
Did this on the playground when i was like 10
I made some neolithic style stone-adzes and axes myself. Picking a rough shape with a harder rock and then grinding the adze/axe head on a wet slab of sandstone for many hours is yet very relaxing and more like a meditation. People had more time and patience back then. It only gets annoying when you are almost finished and then you discover a crack in the stone which makes the whole piece useless. Archeologists found many almost finished stone axes in neolithic waste pits, broken apart during the drilling of the shaft hole. Everytime I see these pieces I feel like I can hear the maker shouting curses in a long forgotten language :D
it's amazing what people accomplished before tv and phones and 24/7 convenience-everything
(i still wouldn't trade in my AC or indoor plumbing tho)
It’s very difficult to find good knapping stone in most of the world since ancient people used so much in the places where you would go to find it.
Let me just pull out my handy dandy easily transported and not heavy at all sandstone slab complete with diorite hammer stone and matching anvil stone. It's so useful I hardly have any tasks that require this expensive and soft copper chisel.
21:20 - when they attacked Rothesay Castle in Scotland back in 1230 , we're told that the Norse used their battle axes on the castle walls, which were/are relatively soft sandstone. Sometimes you just have to work with what you've got to hand.
I expected it to be wood and dirt... Many castles were never made of stone.
@@edi9892 some castles, esspecially old ones which were developed over generations, had partial stone walls, either as full wall's in certain sections which were considered important/vulnerable, witht he reat being wooden, or as short and relatively sturdy foundations for higher wooden wall's, as obviously there is a concern about your axe welding foes hacking into your wooden walls in an attempt to knock them down.
If you look at Rosslyn Chapel, it's made of sandstone and looks practically like it's melting. Hacking into that with an ax made for cloth, flesh, and hopefully-not-metal makes sense
"Imagine using a sandstone defense" - Technoblade
My understanding of woodsman axes isn't about a spare edge for sharpness but a different profile, as mentioned around the 5 min mark about the stone one. Two profiles for two types of cutting/chopping.
Felling axe vs. Splitting wedge, on one haft.
A thought that occurred when he was talking about them as offerings for a goddess of war, or possibly Demeter: why not both? That is, a battle axe combined with a wood axe, for a combination nature/war goddess?
I thought that wood axes would sometimes have two blades so if one becomes blunt over a days' work, the other edge can still cut effectively. A blunt battleaxe can still kill people effectively, but a blunt woodaxe can't do shit.
@@jackbaxter2223 I agree with this simply because the majority of axes depicted *specifically* for cutting wood that have two heads, have heads that are very similar in shape and profile which is probably so the user could comfortably spin it around and continue working with a fresh blade without having to adapt to a different design.
@@IcepersonYT They had slightly different profiles, one side was for chopping through the bark as there can be sand deposits in the cracks. The other side was used for clean wood underneath. They would also remove the bark where the cut for the crosscut saw was located. The advantage was only needing one axe with two profiles instead of having to bring two. It was easier to hike to the worksite with all the gear and tools having only one 4 pound double bit instead of a 4 pound single bit and another axe.
“Sanity not included” RIP Skall
This video was awesome, I really enjoyed it, and the trident video too! Thanks for all the work you do on these, they really are fascinating! And I appreciate the addition of the bloopers at the end too :)
I always love the post-video bloopers, gets a chuckle out of me
Skall for president
Dual sided axes make sense in stone weaponry, stone breaks more often than metal so the extra head might be what allows you to keep fighting after you crack the first blade.
Especially if it was flint or obsidian glass. Sharp but brittle as hell, which is why they were used because it's easy to chip and shape.
Of course, enormous minoan axes weren't made for giants. They were made for minotaurs!
I suspect these stone axes were actually a LOT sharper than they appear now. the rounded off edges is likely due to age. Stone is known for erosion and it can happen over just a few years. So given the age of these pieces. Yeah, I'm pretty confident they "should" be a lot sharper and pointier.
Those would not be sharp anyway, something like a modern one size fits all tool axe, sharp enough for most jobs but in fact as blunt as a spade.
@@demoncore5342 I'm not saying they would be super sharp. Just sharper then they appear now.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop Sorry then dude, I took it like sharp blade. Sure those axehammers and axes would be way pointier back in the day, but one can't even put a lasting edge on a polished stone axe, I tried.
Regarding Minoans, they were basically the JoJo characters of ancient Greece. Nothing they did can be considered anywhere near "practical".
You also gotta remember that “practical” is subjective. The Japanese had shields but rarely used them in warfare except when planting a shield in the ground to provide cover for archers/gunners. Why? because shields just didn’t fit in with the Japanese style of warfare. Same with the Minoans. We barely know anything about them but I’m sure there is a reason for their crazy shit we just don’t have the cultural context.
In the minoans defence, they were unbelievably rich in their era. Rich cultures do impractical things all the time just to show off that they are so wealthy they can afford to be stupid.
@@YaBoiDREX Yup, Japanese used shields mostly to stop arrows and projectiles... So, their shields were big and stationed on the ground and were incorporated on their armors with the big shoulder pieces.
Whereas enemy blades were meant to be stopped by the blade, staff or armor.
we all saw that video too buddy
@@admirable_kon5083 Japanese armor is uh
An interesting subject
And then there's a pretty impractical tool made to kill armored folks in one hit (Kanabo) that they too decided was a good idea
Skall: "No, cut it out" (To Giants)
Them back then: "LETS MAKE DOUBLE BLADED AXES FOR GIANTS!!!!!!!"
Skall traveling through time and in disbelieve that they made it for Giants: "God damned... idiots are smarter than i thought."
Just call it a 'Ceremonial Copper Alloy' weapon to summon an Italian samurai to eradicate it from time and space.
Ok, i have no sources for this, so it could be utter bs, but appearently the giants myths started with people finding mammoth and cave bear bones, misinterpreted them as human- like gigantic people and gave them a "proper" burial, often making weapons and armour fitting this "giants". Later, ofc, other people re- discovered those graves and where like "Oh crap, look at those giant warriors, with axe and helmet and everything! They totally existed!" Basically humanity trolling itself through the ages.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 Highly plausible. As there are ancient Greek accounts of finding what we know today to be woolly mammoth skulls and thinking they were cyclops.
The opening in the bone for the trunk resembles a giant mono eye.
Everyone knows that you need the Berserker armor to wield such heavy weaponry properly.
Would just like to point out that double bladed axes where used to depict "barbaric" tribes by the Romans and the connotation that a double bladed axe is barbaric carried on past the renaissance era.
Something I think the historical community should take into account. Just because a weapon is decorated, doesn’t mean it wasn’t used for combat. Look at the modern gun community, they always decorating their weapons. Look at the 1800s, there have been some elegantly decorated weapons. If you go back further, a lot of ships of the line sometimes had different decorations on their cannons. I’m sure there is even more examples of weapons that were both used in combat yet elegantly decorated.
The one he mentioned was probably not used for combat, he also mentioned that it looked like it didn't have the edge grind.
Guns can get away with decoration since they don't usually make contact and the parts decorated are not involved in the ignition process. Imagine having to redecorate the flat of the blade each time they get damaged. Totally impractical, even in a historical context.
Shad: DOUBLE AXES ARE STUPID
Skall: **laughs in history**
Some future archeologist will find evidence of nerf guns and conclude that since they were not suitable for combat, they must have been ceremonial.
😂
Have you also considered this pre posting thing instead of just just dropping the video without it is what might be screwing with your numbers? The algorithm is a mystery and finicky.
has he done this before?
@@johnbd9765 yes
Interesting point. Maybe it only puts a certain number of items from each channel into a feed? So if we get the advert we don't get the video?
You mean the premiere feature? No, if anything it actually helps a little. I've only tried it a couple of times, and not at all in the past months.
@@Skallagrim yeah. It was just a thought. Random thought can you do a video on whether or not the short Thor like one handed hammer would be an effective weapon? Not the one with a giant head like marvel Thor, just a one handed war hammer with a normal sized head.
Thanks! Love the stuff.
@2:40 Actually some historians say that the offspring of Thors "hammer" Mjölnir is of a predecessor God of that culture and is actually one of those Axes. I think I heard it on Jackson Crawfords channel, but I'm nut sure about that and I don't want do quote him wrong^^
Well that’s sort of right, striker gods often had axes and sometimes they’re double sided. Thor is the Nordic striker god. Thor was the last line in said genealogy so I’m not sure how that depiction had any offspring.
I wanna add one thing, even in the past people like decorating walls, many of these "ceremonial" ones could just be old wall hangers
"I just like collecting cool looking shit" - King of Persia, probably
Humans gotta human:
"look I made this cool choppy thing and call it AXE"
"Daaaamn, that's awesome"
"Right? Perfection."
"Bro, what if it had like two choppy bits?"
"Bro..."
"..."
"THAT WOULD BE SOOO COOL!"
How many bad ideas came to be in history.😎
or they made two choppy bits to compensate for early materials losing sharpness more quickly than steel
This is the best way explaining us humans.
Human gotta human
'Luristan' obviously had a well developed wildland firefighting department... That's a Pulaski Axe.
lol that whole blooper reel and then the swift cut to "thanks for watching" outro. Thanks for the effort in your work! your content is appreciated =3
Most double-bit axes I've seen for forestry have a chopping edge and the other side is a wedge/splitter edge.
10:33, that helm on the axe does look a lot like what Athena's helm is depicted as. So it possibly was dedicated to her.
12:05 it looks exactly as a tool i have at my home, is used to take out rocks from the terrain, or to cut or break them (instead of bricks, here in the south ern region of Italy called "Puglia" - we use to build walls, portion of rocks shaped on bricks proportions but much bigger - 25x25x50 centimeters)
We used them to break up the hard clay soil during a community project
@@saccorhytus2728 oh and they have bigger shafts, obviously, being tools to dig
That's remember me firefighter axe/pickaxe, when we have firefighter and our thing in chief don't make a race whit Trudeau for being the more degenerate creature in the world...(salt and sour ? Nah...).
The making of double axes.
"Hello!"
"Hello!"
"Hey, so I got this idea. So, I saw Hamshank with a pile of dry grass, and he made it burn for a few seconds. I wonder, if I can take that plus some sticks and make the red flower. But I'll need some sticks and people have been picking them up."
"Hmm... So, what if we take a stone, grind it down to a shape, and maybe it can cut a small tree?"
"OOH! That could work!" So, Raging Rapid and Two Tusks go and grab a stone and grind it down. They then cut down a small tree and use it as the haft. This made the Stone Ax. Then.
"Hey, Double T."
"Yeah?"
"What if... We added another edge to it?"
"... Dude... You're a f*cking genius!"
And so, they made the first ax and the first double ax. At least in their region, as everyone else was making bronze tools and weapons.
Beautiful 👏
Good shit
That axe with the horizontal blade on the back could've also been used to remove trees and tree stumps. The blade that's sideways could've been used to cut the roots.
The other end is essentially an adze so maybe it can be used to level wood, I've heard that some places still use an adze to do this job
I have one of those for gardening; although it's extremely suited for that use case, the main purpose is usually the exact opposite (planting new trees) 😃
@@tommycrowley382 I'd like to get an adze for working on a cabin I want to build. They're something I could hang on a pack and take to it.
@@markusesslinger huh, I guess that makes sense. Cut one down, use the same tool to plant another.
Regarding the Indo-Persian axes around 24:00 - I'm Persian, & my grandpa used to tell me about warriors that used axe & shield, or sword & shield + spears / archery etc, but never mentioned 2 headed axes as weapons. We do have 2 headed axes being portrayed in legends & sagas as weapons, but no physical evidence of such as far as I'm aware
The Eastern Romans used 3 types of one-handed axes (and the Persians as well since they fought and shared bread for so long). Anyway the types were 1) the normal axehead, 2) a double axehead, and 3) the most recommended one, the axe head and a steel point on the other side (for penetrating armor). Since both Eastern Romans and Persian had both heavy armored (heavy infantry and very heavy armored units (cataphracts), makes sense why this was recommended.
As for greataxes, the only thing i can think off is the 'Danish' Longaxe of the Varangian Guard. Maybe there was a double headed variety.
Edit: I was correct, Skallagrim showed it and its actually an ingenious weapon because it is still lightweight (the Inverted U shape). Rus is one of the people that were Varangian Guard. Seems that area is also what inspired Persia to experiment with their own double axes.
Wrong, your grandfather unless an archaeologist is probably a less accurate source than your average internet nerd. We have A LOT of physical double sided axes from the indo-Persians. Mostly ceremonial but plenty were definitely used for Calvary, like we have pottery depicting them doing.
@@imlonelypleasehelp5443I've come a long way as far as my knowledge of arms & armor since that comment
@@Sacrentice I’m glad soldier🫡
Again, because i think it's neat: Poleax was a bit of a catch-all for the whole family, even ones without an Ax head. In the treatises, they treated (Couldn't resist the pun) a Hammer/spike such as the Bec du Corbin as a Poleax for all intents, and purposes. Also, there are some plates that literally have a head on each end of the pole. A true double-ax!
Skall, I'm finally able to sit and watch this video. And it's one of my favorites in quite some time. I like the majority of your content, but the research and work that went into this are exceptional. Thank you for taking the time to educate and entertain.
I would love to see a video like this on Vjking axes. You could show how they started and all the variants they inspired afterwards. Also could show your favorite historical example/shape.
Just remember Skall, "Sanity is vastly overrated."
I am busy and usually miss your video uploads because it gets lost in the chain of the daily grind and the other fact I have too many channels I’m subbed to that literally flood my inbox. Good thing I caught this.
There's definitely a difference between channels I enjoy daily and channels I subscribe to in order to boost them. Small obviously is a daily.
I think symmetric double war axes are usually quite functional, but they don't add any versatility to this weapon....to be honest i think we should distinguish it between asymmetric double war axes and symmetric double war axes. Simply because the former tend have an additional versatility, like ripping shields down and use the other hand to attack the now open area etc. And a large amount of symmetric double war axes have symbolic function, seen in the minoean culture (as a symbol of justice). The only weird thing are the oversized double axes we see in the fantasy genre, who tend to be also extra thick and too heavy. Maybe Shad has a little bit skewed perspective, because he are more used to LARP weapons, who tend to based on fantasy weapons.
You REALLY think Shad based all his points on fake weapons?
@@blumiu2426 Well he didn't held a war axe in his hand otherwise he wouldn't assume symmetric double war axe are heavy or unwieldy. As an example: if held a tabarzin he would recognize that while it's top heavy it's also quite light. They are many variants of it and some islamic sects prefer it as a symmetric double axe head. Are they unwieldy...nope, they are just less versatile and the weight difference between a one bladed and double bladed tabarzin is just marginal, additionally a symmetric axe head also has certain symbolic image. By the way i never wrote he didn't held any real weapons, so i assume this question is just a poor misdirection tactic, while running out of arguments/extremly defensive or just lack of reading or discussion ability.
@@klausernstthalheim9642 Not at all, because I recall Shad mentioning the fact of the actual weight of weapons when he's describing how force distribution works in comparison with a single to double. It is as if you are saying he was either 1) Not mentioning every single variant of double-axe, so he was wrong or 2) Literally thought that a fake weapon was equivalent to a real one.
It sounds more cherry-picking needlessly he didn't cover all bases for every example, than him actually being wrong. I'm not an expert on any of this, but if you think you can advise better, I'm sure you can make a video response of your own to Shad.
You've brought a lot of history with all of these videos but the part at 15:40 really got my attention how you brought everything together with the map and what-not was very nice. I'd love to hear more history like this with weapons as its focus rather than how most history is told through politics or economics
One reason stone axes may have had two blades (aside from having access to another tool) may have been to increase their longevity, if a single-edged stone axe got damaged the user would have to make a new one, having two blades would have allowed them to keep working when one side broke. Metal axes by contrast may be easier to repair, to an AXE-tent. (Couldn't resist)
21:28 that one could also be one guy with a pickaxe and the other hits it with a Hammer.
the one at 22:50 could have been used by a Gard to defend against multible opponents
Hey Skall. Been a fan of your content for years now. I dont know how tp use swords, I dont really have a desire to learn. But hearing you talk about what your passionate about is just so entertaining. Thanks for the content buddy
Looking at the Chinese ax (second to last), it looks like the haft is actually perpendicular to the cat, not parallel. That would imply the whole circle was on one side of the handle, which would be a single bitted ax.
Fascinating overview, cheers pal!!
P.S. Your bloopers are the best ;-) you do the slow descent into madness so well lol
It can be difficult to determine whether a thing is a tool, a weapon, a ceremonial object, or some combination of the three. Sometimes it's fairly clear such as things that resemble a weapon but clearly aren't suitable for combat due to their materials. Ceremonial objects are almost always highly decorated but sometimes actual weapons are too. It's not very common with weapons but it's not all that rare, either. There's also a tendency for obsolete or obsolescent weapons to hang around for ceremonial use long after their battlefield use is over. The USMC Silent Drill Platoon uses M1 rifles for their balance and iconic look so they could be reasonably called ceremonial; however, they are still fully capable of delivering lethal fire. Hand-to-hand naval boarding actions are a thing of the long past but I have a U. S. Navy officer's sword that was intentionally made of quality steel and is perfectly suitable for fighting. What would a historian of the past think of these objects without written records or much by way of context? That's kind of the situation we're in trying to determine how often double axes were actually used on the battlefield. Even if they were rarely used as weapons, it's possible they were over-represented as ceremonial objects simply because they look impressive.
The axe with an adze poll is still in use, look up Pulaski ax used in forest fire fighting. Though it is more of a mattock than an adze. As for the axe stiletto combo that was featured on Forged in Fire.
We appreciate all your efforts, Skall! I think I catch more than 90% of what you put out.
Your efforts show!
It's always good to see someone do a deep dive into a topic, unlike an archaeologist that, because there are still 2 stones stacked on top of each other, they were a "ceremonial" site. It's always great to have as much information as possible before drawing conclusions.
That's the academic way of saying "I don't have a clue" like if someone unearths a bottle opener in some 3k years or so, it will be definitely something ceremonial.
@@demoncore5342 There was a story in Reader's Digest, I think in the 1980s that covered the archaeological dig of a motel, I think about a thousand years from now. Toilet seat was a collar and headpiece for the high priestess, and the "Sanitised for your protection" band from the toilet seat was a chant. 😂
@@paulherman5822 Lol can see it being a thing in the future, on the other hand, who know how many such bronze age toilet seats did made it in to history books.
@@demoncore5342 It was a running joke on Time Team about one of the archaeologists that he could find a ceremonial site in an outhouse pit. 😁
The circle axe is badass! Never would've imagined such a cool design. I hope one day Skall can get his hands on something similar, it would make for some super fascinating tests.
Seems to me if you're offering it to the goddess of war, there may likely be a military funtional version of it. As they are clearly associated with war.
You can not automatically make this assumption. Icons representing a divine being are often different than the real world things they represent. Take Poseidon's trident for example. It was not used as a battle field weapon. Instead the trident form was a fantasy invention inspired by Poseidon's mythos. It's points represented 3 harpoons that contained in them the power to make earthquakes, create springs, or summon raging floodwaters depending on which point he used. It is likely that the war goddess's multi-headed axe had some similar symbiology.
@@nosajimiki5885 2 points.
1 I did not assume it as fact. Just a likelihood.
2 you'll not that your example actually supports my Suggestion. As the trident was a fisherman's tool. And as such would naturally be associated with the God of the sea.
@@bfastje As far as I can tell, there is no actual archeological evidence that the Greeks used tridents for fishing. All of their artwork of fishermen shows them either using a net or a fishing pole, or in rare cases, a single ended harpoon. Every cited mention I can find that says that the Greeks used tridents for fishing can be traced back to the Halieutica written by Oppian in about 180 AD. (The first depiction of Poseidon wielding a trident was from the 6th century BC.) The Halieutica is a poem about anthropomorphized fish where the fish represent people motivated by various emotions, and all of the ways of hunting them are metaphors for the dangers of human emotions. Given the context of the story, it seems more likely that he talked about fishing with a trident specifically as a reference to Poseidon, not to describe it as a way that people actually fished... Does this mean that absolutely no on ever tried it? No, I'm sure someone tried it, but it does not appear to be something that ever caught on.
@@nosajimiki5885 there's is some debate on the matter. But the prevailing theory is that it's a fishing tool.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_of_Poseidon
books.google.com/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&pg=PA137#v=onepage&q&f=false
@@bfastje That theory is probably inspired by the gararra: a 3 pronged fishing spear found in Australia, but that theory is problematic because the gararra is shaped very different than Poseidon's trident, and not native to Greece.
More likely, the trident was derived from the Lotus Flower Scepters found in early Greek artwork. All of the Olympians were depicted with such scepters as a symbol of their divine authority, but over time, each god's scepter was made more unique. Zues's became an eagle, Hades's became a pair of horns, Hemes became a pair of wings, Hera's remained the lotus flower, and Poseidon became the 3-pronged harpoon. All of these forms though closely resembled the original lotus flower's shape; so, even if the Greeks did use multi-pronged fishing spears, there is no reason to assume they would have looked anything like Poseidon's trident.
The same is true of the Minoans, there may have been a single bitted war axe, but the reason for 2 axe heads could have unrelated origins. The leading theory is that the double headed axe was intended as a symbol of the female vaginal opening, with each head representing the labia on each side. This also explains the 4 bearded labrys , because they represent the labia majora and labia minora. So what the Minoans did was take the familiar image of a war axe, and then reimagined it to represent the female form in honor of a female war goddess.
I do love how you and Shad go back and forth all the time. I wish you two would get on a podcast or talk more in videos.
That southern bit of the Crimea that the Byzantines ruled were Goths btw, the descendents of the last of the group that didn't go with Theodoric. They still spoke a Germanic language into the 1500s as I recall (might be off by a couple hundred years, memory is fuzzy), there are German-speakers (I want to say French who spoke German) and compared it.
Linguistically we can tie the Sarmatians and Alans (or Ossetians as they are known today) to the Scythians, they all speak/spoke a form of Eastern Iranian. Also with that, consider that we are speaking a Western Germanic language, so although I don't really know vocab in either language I doubt it's similar to modern Persian.
Anyways, just thought I would add that, been a big fan of all of those "barbarian" tribes for a long. Interesting views, keep up the good work!
If you were a wealthy fighter in the middle ages you would often have highly decorated weapons and armor so you shouldn't assume just because it is highly decorated that it was built to be ceremonial/ nonfunctional. Just look at empire maxamilian 1 armory it is almost all highly decorated but was also supposed to be functional.
Super focused, well illustrated and well narrated Skall. Good vid dude!
im gonna be honest, i really didnt notice the flickering at all in the video, but i really appreciate how much effort you put on your videos man. thanks for the entertainment
The last axe/blade looks a lot like a Coa which is a Jimador's tool, used for preparing the agave for Tequila production.
This video proves Indo-European cultures love double headed axes. Although, it’s hard to not like them when you’re storm gods use them.
Are you referring to Thor? Because his was probably a hammer axe; you might be thinking of Zeus Labryndos.
@@ezrafaulk3076 I’m talking about Perkunos, who split into all the different Indo-European thunder/storm gods.
@@kokofan50 Never heard of him.
@@ezrafaulk3076 the name is a reconstruction from comparative linguistics, and comparative mythology suggests that he carried a stone ax/ax-hammer.
@@kokofan50 I've still never heard of this Perkunos, or his splitting into all the different Indo-European thunder/storm gods; I'd appreciate a link to your information source.
Skallagrim you´re the best. The sprinkled in memes, the Quadruple and Omniaxe had me cranking up. Always a good time, watching your content.
Thanks!
The bloopers at the end, like some ceremonial double axes, were pure gold.
22:16 I've always known a halberd with two axeheads to be a partisan.
Though there is tons of inconsistencies in terminology. Feels like every collector, curator and antiquarian has there own personal favorite terms for different polearms.
To my knowledge Partizans were large bladed spears with one edge
9:05 there are weapons made of (hardened) gold. Well, the only example I have is a dagger found in Tutankhamon's grave (so much for representativity), but it does indicate that people found a way to harden the material. It doesn't mean it was used, as it's been found in a grave, after all. The decoration on the axe however do indicate more of a status symbol or ceremonial/decorative object.
27:35 The omni-axe: you can hack your opponents to death and eat soup out of the skulls of the defeated, whit the spoon-form!
I'd totally use that design if I was wearing armor, and my objective was to hack my way through hordes of cloth-covered peasants. That thing is clearly designed as a slash-and-chop weapon, and if you were skilled I imagine you could use it to thrust at people's throats--if they don't dodge fast enough, you'll nick the major blood vessels, and if they don't dodge at all, you'll possibly take off the entire head.
Great video, Skall, and props for all the research. You keep putting out quality stuff, which is great to see.
Respect to you Skall, for putting the work into researching this. Quite enjoyable and informational.
For the Minoan Labrys I read somewhere that they were often used for ritual sacrifices. This could explain the signs of use. Or maybe like I mentioned in the first video about something I heard or read long ago about the Romans, maybe the large Minoan axes were used to intimidate anyone that would try to invade Crete. Leave a handful of these massive axes on a "battlefield" along with some other weapons and armor or sorts that look like they were used by giants and it would make most people have second thoughts about attacking.
Archeologists always underestimate psychological warfare as an aspect of an object.
the supposed invaders would not be stupid tho - why would they be afraid of a weapon, that cant be actually used (even by giant, cause its fragile?)
@@meanczechguy1043 The fear would possibly outweigh logic. You underestimate how powerful fear is as a weapon. Even if it would appear fragile, if there was what looks like battle damage on it that could still stir feelings of fear since to someone who doesn't know the truth it would seem as it was used successfully in combat once. However I did first say that I read they were used for ritual sacrifice.
@@erinfinn2273 I agree, and for some of the more outlandish things it could be that was the purpose, to destroy morale. Even in the modern era psychological warfare is still used often, for example in the initial invasion of Iraq we had trucks playing the sounds of helicopters and tanks on loud speakers to drive enemies out of hiding.
Well, if that was true, it didn't work, because crete was invaded by the myceneans anyway.
it's axiomatic that double bladed axes are twice as axy as single bladed axes
11:36 man those blades look nice. The tomahawk and francisca shaped blades in the upper left quater especially. Nice choppers :D
I loved the steady loss of sanity while fighting OBS at the end. I've definitely been there!
Oh, the beef produced directions to seek out truth ?
I'm kinda happy for both of the parties, with extra thanks to Skall.
Conflict isn't always bad.
I studied archaeology and ancient history in Germany. When I said axes were used for fighting, a professor laughed at me and said "axes were only used for rituals". The current state of academics is simply below 100 IQ
Thanks for this Skall 🙏 Lots of examples and some pretty great commentary 🍻 Cheers and hope you're as well as you can be!
I like how the image is blurred at 3:26 but you can still see it at the bottom
2:34 stone axes with holes inside? I can believe one bad day and it is going to snap exactly on that spot (around the hole) I have crushed many stones in my Village to build stuff and know how weak spots work for them. really fascinating why they chose to make the weapons this way, instead of inserting one continuous stone inside a split wooden shaft, wrapped around with rope or something.
Guess after ruining enough hafts they just went with the less probable.
Probably much more difficult to make thwle hole aswell. I assume it must work fine with a strong enough stone.
Well Demeter has in her name the word "meter" (depending on hwo it´s written also "mater") or "mother". Literally.
It´s weird how many terms go back on greek and even further, "deity" goes back to latin "deus" which goes back to greek "Zeus".
Same for weapons and tools, they evolved over the ages to this very day.
On the two soldiers breaching the wall, it could be a team of pick axes and axes. Picks to tunnel through stone and dirt, axes to chop apart wood pillars, prepare poles for sapping supports, or for defending the sappers. Could also be picks and adze or similar flat blade for pulling through dense dirt and sand.
The offset haft on the double stone axes plays to you point in the last video about having different axe types instead of two of the same. Perhaps the point was so both sides performed differently.
It's amazing the variety of weapons that can be found from India over the centuries. They seem to have tried everything, all sorts of unusual shapes, and tons of combinations. Guess it makes a lot of sense, that area's been inhabited for a really long time, with a large population, with tons of conflict and invasions and uprisings, and all the innovation and experimentation that'd lead to. I suspect Africa has an even larger variety, for similar reasons, it just hasn't been studied as much, yet.
Great stuff Skall, both of these videos.
This one a interesting and excellent video, what a research you have done, there is no doubt that double axes where used and they are functional, thanks skall
11:55 I've used something like this in agriculture. The horizontal edge is usefull for digging hard soil, specially in places with thick roots growing underneath.
The dual headed woodsman ax I mentioned making in the comments of part one is built kind of similar to the Swedish ax head you show near the beginning. The offset of the shaft hole does help balance between the shorter, wider, splitting type end to the longer, thinner, chopping/cutting type end.
Really love to see bronze age societies getting some attention, especially the Scythian/ancient Iranic cultures which shaped so much of Eurasian technology and warfare!
Based on that Chinese circle axe, I think we know where the Dwemer went. Check the Dwarven battleaxe model in Morrowind.
Also, have you considered some of the large-but-not-ludicrous Minoan axes as sacrificial weapons? I've seen some crazy looking swords that were intended for beheading sacrificial animals.
I like how Shad explained and showed the logic and you showed the exceptions and how many there were
Love both your stuff
As someone who works 60-80 hours a week regularly I can totally relate to the "I love to work overtime." sarcastic comment.
Whoa those luristan axe heads looks beautifully elven-like
At about the 29:00minute mark you mention that double axes are quite the exceptions other than in the middle east where they seemed quite fond of them at time.
Question is: why do you suppose that is. What was it about that area that led to, caused, or allowed them to make double axes as weapons during those periods?
First off great video sir Skall! Second I'm on my phone and I have no problem seeing the axes at timestamp 20:45ish
On the topic of "Omni-axes" one of my favorite weapons is the Dwemer Battle Axe in Morrowind.
The term ceremonial seems to be rather excessively used. Ceremonial seems to imply religious meaning.
Some of those axes may have been parade or prestige in functionality. Parade type weapons are for “showing off”, usually, exceedingly exaggerated and opulently decorated.
Prestige type weapons may be badges of rank. These may even lose their functionality as weapons all together. The typical King’s scepter is a stylistic representation of a mace. However, the Cossack Ataman‘s bulava (type of mace) is a badge of rank, like a marshal’s baton, and yet is still fully functional as a weapon.
i really don’t think ceremonial implies religious meaning at all, not sure where you’re getting that. Ceremonial, at least to me, usually makes me think of parade or status weapons, never religious.
@@monochrome_soft9472 : Religious Ceremonial would be weapons used in the performance of a rituals like blood-sacrifice, animal or human. The weapon would shown in civilizations religious iconography and symbolism. The Aztec flint or obsidian knives used to cut out the hearts during their human sacrifice rituals. Also ceremonial weapons might be used to dispense justice through the punishment or execution of convicted criminals. In most Pantheons there usually a Justice/Judgement deity.
Could the giant axes be used on a device? Indy Jones style trap, for instance.
27:45 if skall started a gofundme to commission a smith to make one of these, I would TOTALLY donate. This seems like it would actually be pretty cool and it would have a really strange cut compared to any other weapon.
awesome video man have u ever done a video historically accurate crossbowmen/archer pavise crossbowmen ?
I laughed more than I should at your "flickering" bloopers.
I have heard that perhaps the Minoan "axes" were in fact meant to represent the head and horns of a bull. I suspect that double axes did actually see real combat use in the European middle ages, but were rare and limited to specialists that were specially trained in their use for breaking though shield walls or taking on multiple opponents, etc. Perhaps, if true, this is why they have become iconic because they were rare and indicative of a specialized warrior or knight.
The Varangian Guard (highly trained mercenaries) of the Eastern Roman Empire is exactly what comes to mind. They were used at critical points of the battle as fresh experience troops (a luxury only big rich empires can really afford) for exactly the purposes you describe. I knew about the Danish Longaxe specifically, but the Rus Double Axe also counts (fairly ingenious idea with the Inverted U shape because its still lightweight). The Varangian Guard recruited tribes from many different places throught the history (Danish/Swedes/Norwegians, Saxons, Anglosaxons, Rus and so on).
12:05 We still have these today. They're called Pulaski Axes and are used in fighting fires, particularly wildfires. It's also similar to a cutter mattock (aka "grub axe"), used for clearing in hard soils and rocky terrain.
11:56 I have one of those! Well, nearly. The one I have has a slightly shorter axe head, the other side is slightly thicker, and is made out of steel - but is otherwise identical (unless mine is larger than that one... hard to tell from the image, but mine's a fairly beefy tool that needs two hands to be properly swung/controlled). It's been a while, but I used it as a combination pickaxe/wood chopper on my land/garden - very useful when uprooting smaller trees, since the roots need to be chopped with the axe part, while you also need to pull upwards with the adze-like end. Also good for removing/digging up medium-sized boulders from arable soil.
I wouldn't even be surprised if this was commonly used to clear out woodland to produce farmland.