Instruments 102: Woodwinds
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- Let's talk about the woodwind section of the orchestra - and then go practice!
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0:00 Overview
5:13 Transposing Instruments
11:31 Articulations and Techniques
14:35 Peculiarities
21:00 Functions in the Orchestra
24:08 Voicings
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#orchestration #instruments #woodwind
Something I didn't really explain in the video is WHY some instruments transpose. It's very common for WW players to play multiple instruments within their WW family, sometimes even from different WW families. In order to make doubling on other instruments easier for them, they don't read a written note as a pitch, but rather as a finger position. So for them, the finger positions across the instruments stays the same, making their job easier and reducing the risk of wrong notes when they switch from one instrument to another. But the sounding pitch from the different instruments is different which makes the job of composers and orchestrators harder.
Why then a transposing instrument player doesn't learn the note they are playing as the actual concert note name instead of the transposed note ?
Do A and Bb clarinets therefore finger the notes the same for the concert notes a semitone apart?
But it’s also to keep more notes on the main staff, fewer ledger lines. I prefer the medieval solution to that - transpose the staff rather than the instrument. Unfortunately, I was not around to ask when the decision was made.
@@velvetsound No actually. When a clarinet player sits down to a piece of music, they don’t really care too much if the clarinet they are playing is B flat, or A, or E flat (unless the conductor asks the entire group to play something in concert pitch, then they’d have to transpose what pitch to play depending on the key of the instrument they are currently playing). If the piece of music they are reading has middle C written it doesn’t matter if their horn is pitched in B flat or E flat or A or F or whatever pitch, they play a middle the instrument’s middle C fingering because the composer has already transposed that note to correct for the pitch of the horn. If the conductor asks that all the clarinet players to play a concert B flat (say there is intonation issues between the players) the B flat instruments will transpose that note and play their C pitch, and an A clarinet player would transpose that note and play their C sharp pitch and it would sound like they were all playing the same pitch but these notes would have different fingering between the B flat and A players.
The advantage to this is that no matter the pitch coming out of their horn (which again is dependent upon what key the instrument is pitched as) they know that the G written as the second line of the treble staff is all fingers up (no keys pressed and no fingers covering holes) regardless of the actual pitch of the horn and this again is true all they way up and down the horn. If the instruments were not pitched they would have to keep the fingering for different horns straight. They would have to know that G on a B flat horn is an D on a E flat horn and a G sharp on an A horn, which you can see gets confusing quickly. Now consider that in Jazz ensembles the lead E flat alto player is expected to double on B flat soprano for some songs and even sometimes switch between the two in the same song, occasionally switching back and forth several times in the same song as called for by the composer or arranger.
TL;DR transposing instruments are transposing so that a player can (in theory) effortlessly switch between different members of the same instrument family. If you know how to read sheet music for an E flat alto saxophone, you know how to read music for a B flat saxophone because all you have to do is push down the same buttons no matter which instrument you are playing because the composer has already done the hard part of transposing the music from concert pitch to the pitch of the horn you are playing.
Hope this makes sense. I was/am a woodwind player and it took me a long time to figure out why they made transposing instruments.
(The main reason they make an A clarinet is to make certain passages of music easier for players to play and read. Say that something is written with an ugly key signature (Say concert B natural major, that transposes to C sharp major for B flat clarinets and thats 7 sharps in the key signature to have to remember while playing the piece. I consider that pretty ugly, on an A clarinet that would transpose to the key of D major, with a much easier 2 sharp key signature to have to remember, which causes me much less stress when I sit down to read something for the first time but I am also an amateur player. More skilled players usually have all of the scales and arpeggios well under their fingers and can play proficiently in any key, but still it’s much easier to just have to keep track of two sharps in your head than it is 7.)
What if you have a plastic reed? 🤔😉😁🤷♂️
I almost spilled my coffee all over the place when I got to the transposing section. you are way funnier and natural than many stand up comedians.
Once she reached transposing instruments this video switched into a new gear. I was laughing out loud, earned my sub in 30 seconds.
I'm sayin bruh 😂
IKR. Somehow I also love it when she cusses, because she does it like a sailor but with the voice of a proper lady. I guess that's also some kind of transposing :)
I love how you fluctuate between speaking like a high school music teacher and shit talking like a college professor. 😂
Great tips on composing as a Flute player, I greatly appreciate composers like you and all the ones here in the comment section. Bravo!
I love these guides.
Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
Glad you like them!
And yeah.......bloody French 😂😂
As with all of your videos, this is jam packed with great information. I’m a woodwind player and it’s much appreciated to have this info available to composers.
I know this channel focuses on the orchestra, but one interesting fact is the clarinet acts as the core of the concert band, much like the violins/strings in general act as the core of the orchestra. Bands also feature a whole lot more of each woodwind instrument.
Nobody teaches music with your level of humor and sarcasm. I love it, and it makes it easier to remember and "understand".
Bassoon player here. I had to chime in when you mentioned tenor clef. Everything you've said about bassoons is true.
Recently discovered your channel and already hooked.
For woodwinds, in terms of "traditional setups", it was in pairs between flutes, oboes, clarinets, and bassoons. I imagine you and many others who watch these vids have seen this setup when looking at classical pieces for reference. Source: am a woodwind player.
Again, love the videos and the channel!
She's great. She said it out something about transposing instruments that I've always had in mind but never said. Thanks Anne-Kathrin to have said it for me.
We must protect Anne-Kathrin Dern at all costs.
Thanks Anne. This will be a great reference while reading The Study of Orchestration. You give the book life and I will be able to understand it better. And because of this I'm able to get a better picture in my head of how orchestration works.🙂
Fantastic video, some excellent insights. As a bassoonist though I'd say double tonguing is very much a bassoonists jam. It's actually a lot easier on the larger reed than it is on the Oboe or clarinet. Double tonguing is a very staple technique in the orchestral repertoire for us. And THANK YOU for mentioning that we prefer tenor clef! When you're used to it it's such a useful clef. Treble clef is sometimes appropriate, but usually only for the extreme high register, where tenor clef works anyway. Finally, maybe it's down to regional style differences, but where I'm from clarinet players usually tend to go non-vib unless they're looking for a really specific colour, in like a Russian or French score solo. In German and English music usually they prefer the non-vib sound.
No criticisms here though, just sharing for the sake of sharing, keep up the great videos :)
Brilliant; thank you for such a good exposition on Woodwind!
Nice. Love your sense of humor in this one.
Pure gold. Lots of valuable information here. Thanks so much!
And NOOOW ladies and gentleman (imagine Miss Grace Jones' Slave to the Rhythm kind of suspension suspension).......go practice. Love your videos Anne-Kathrin!
Super session! Lots of useful information and a few good funny bits.
This has to be said, the eye makeup is on point. Great video once again. Thank you
Nice condensed essential down-to-the-point practical information about (probably the hardest group in the orchestra to write for)-woodwinds.
Yes, transposing is a nightmare, and you covered it with a great sense of humor :-) “Must watch” video for all music students, especially when it comes from your perspective-a hard working composer in actual media scoring production. No sugarcoating. Straight down to the point. As is. Bravo !
I've almost died laughing from your sarcasm 😂😂😂😂😂
Au nom de beaucoup de français, on est vraiment désolés ! (In the name of many french people, we are really sorry !)
That "those mother******s" was so unexpected, brillant ! Awesome video, as always :)
On est des gens bien !!
We love you all, because at the end of the day - what would the world be like wizout ze French!?
I always love your videos, but this was next level! both informative and VERY entertaining
Another great video! Sidenote: You have a brand of sarcasm that I really like.
This video is great!! Super helpful and accurate info, thanks for putting this out.
One tiny nitpick, all woodwinds will play vibrato automatically except for the clarinets (11:45). In a classical context, clarinets won't use vibrato unless it's specifically notated.
As for transposing... I will say does make life easier for woodwind doublers like me. When I put one finger down, it's always a B (except for lower register on clarinet, and don't get me started about how bassoon should be an F instrument that reads treble clef 😅). But yeah... a few hundred years of various traditions make for a terrible rule book.
Seriously though great video, I can tell this took a ton of work to put together.
@@craigwilliamdayton Very true, good nitpick on my nitpick. In the context of film scoring there's not too much of that, although I literally recorded some jazz clarinet with vibrato a couple months ago for an upcoming film, so maybe take that for what it's worth 😂
Y’all are nitpicky nitpickers and I love it 😂❤️ More detailed information is always better.
A mistake I made on my first media composition recording was doubling flute and clarinet with the flute in its lowest register. Sounded great with samples. But when the real players tried it, the flute had to blow hard, driving it a little sharp, while the clarinet was blowing softly to avoid drowning out the flute, driving it a little flat. They were good players and managed to negotiate a decent compromise. But I still had to Melodyne them both in post, and use only the close mics. The final result was quite engaging. Magical, really. But I should have hired an alto flute for that part.
Another fantastic video entertaining as always. I also enjoyed the references from one of my favourite orchestration books in the world.
Great ..!! It's good to hear what we read in books about woodwind issues, from an actual player who is also happen to be a composer and orchestrator, since the idiomatic language for every section and every instrument has always been the main struggle when mixing them as a whole in the orchestra.
Thank you, Anne. Best regards from Chile.!!
The transposing section is a lot of fun , I had a wee chortle at your delivery and facial expressions.
I weep every time I'm looking at some older score and realize that it's transposing. So much fun...
Awesome and funny video, with great information as always. The woodwind transposition voodoo pretty much did my head in on my last project.
Once again, a remarkable amount of useful information, delightfully presented. Thank you!
Super helpful as always! I like your description of the transposition stuff😁
Fantastic content, I learned a ton from this! Will go right back to my last score and check whether or not I respected all of your great advice. Awesomeness!
Why oh WHY do I love your videos so much! lol...Thank you for this
Once again an awesome, to the point and in some (deserved) places downright hilarious video!
That is why I love this channel. Totally informative but so sexy when she goes full potty mouth and dissing the initiators. I get so excited over theory, I can't contain myself, fully belly laughs.
I pretty much know this stuff. But I just keep coming to those videos because I like your style and you are a joy to listen to :) Please keep this up!
Great video; much to learn and be entertained too.. "The orchestra will murder you" I pictured yelling musicians wielding piccolos running towards the booth.😂😂
"Because f*** it, why not switch it up?" -- LOL!! Spit my coffee on that one!
Great overview. Thanks.
Haha epic video! Thanks for the info and laughs :)
Was waiting for this part!!!! As always, informative video. Thank you. 😄
As always very informative. Transposing always amazed me sax players who play tenor, alto, and how they could transpose on the spot switching instruments and reading a from a fakebook. Which brings up why some of the tunes in the original RealBook are in the wrong key. They two guys who did the original RealBook were running around school grabbing lead sheets to copy for the RealBook and sometimes without realizing it they grabbed transposed lead sheets. That's why some tunes in the RealBook are in wrong keys.
Thanks for the work!
My pleasure, and thank you for the support!
So ... Trouble cleff?
Those Gauls are crazy!! :)
Very useful, gives a great idea of how to approach this family of instruments and while I'm sure there is lifetimes worth on the subject this is more than enough to get ones hands dirty (start arranging).
Clear, concise and fun
I once sat in on a parents' orchestra at a music summer camp, and a band director player was playing Eflat sax, reading the Viola part in Alto clef, naturally. Mad props.
love how that you gave credit to the session players for making up mistakes in scores :)
This is so funny!!! Love your content!
Very informative.. as always great video. Thank you 🙏
Can't thank you enough for this video! As a total amateur starting to explore orchestral music, this is immensely helpful. And loving your sense of humor, too! =)
you rule, thanks for all your work!!
"The French... of course it would be the French."
Deadpan comedy gold 😂😂😂😂
Great video, as always! I truly love the woodwinds, and it's one of my biggest problems with a majority of modern "blockbuster" scores: the woodwinds seem to have been almost entirely faded out from any kind of dominant use, in favor of strings (especially performing some kind of ostinato) and brass (usually doing a majority of the top-line work). It really saddens me, and I hope we see some kind of a revival in the near future. It seems ages since we've had a "classic" Love Theme that uses a solo flute or flute/oboe doubling. That's an approach that would be near impossible to pull away from me - this, among other gripes, is one of the many reasons why I've not gotten too deep into the industry and often have to question myself on whether I TRULY want to get into the industry; I have a composer friend who works in Hollywood and he has told me on numerous occasions "You're gonna have to sacrifice 'hummable melodies' if you want to get far in the modern industry." In fact, I overheard another composer friend say this almost exact thing a couple days ago. And that alone is enough to make me pause. I hate this idea that the studio suits up top, for some reason, now seem to view "hummable melodies" as "too old-fashioned" and "out of touch" with modern audiences. I find this to be both ridiculous AND insulting to the common movie-goer, quite honestly; almost as if to say the average movie-goer is "too stupid" to be able to handle or process a movie soundtrack that is "too motif-driven."
As a former trumpet (B flat instrument) player, I always wondered if someone was subliminally condescending to us players thinking that it would be easier for us to think in C major scale even though the instrument somehow landed on a physical arrangement in which its easiest major scale turned out to be B flat. Must be chaos in the mind of someone who has to compose across instruments, probably mock them up via a keyboard input on a synth, then still convert scores to the "native" transposed staff for sheet music. Music's own Tower of Babel.
Thank you once again for your generosity in making these videos. It's such a wonderful thing to help out others like this. Plus - the funny does not hurt! Unless you really have a problem with the French, in which case I completely misread the tone!! (Some of my best friends are French. No, really.) I don't know how you did it; but you have really helped me in my composing after many years of doing little more than improvising solo or in small band environments.
Very good tutorial and well done.
The transposition section made me laugh out loud, you made my day! What you say is so true! :D :D
As one of those composers who frequently neglects the WWs because I am just bad at them, I am very eager to watch this 😅
Never expected to hear your potty-mouth, but when it comes to transposing instruments and the French, I do understand. Thanks for the great videos, learning a lot. Please keep them coming.
Awesome guide...I'm going to have to watch a few more times and take some notes... You really cracked me up at points too...glad I wasn't drinking anything like Steve elsewhere in the comments...I would have spilled it all over the place...
THank you, very useful information!
Very cool, thanks!
You are very good at what you do.
This is great content!
Ah yes transposing instruments. They were the bane of my existence during my theory exams! Ha! Great video!
Thank you so much ☺️
Ain't the world of composition whacky and weird? Transpositions . . .what? I just love listening to you talk about stuff.
Wish she were my music teacher. I think I could go 8-10 hours listening to her. Great info and very funny video.
Hahaha "the French (...)..." Bravo encore ! Votre chaîne est un trésor !
I'm looking forward to your brass transpositions rant. Brass are a bit more tame compared with woodwinds though as far as modern transpositions are concerned. Great video.
7:18 LMAO.
We love Anne-Kathrin.
Have you any plans to continue this "Instruments" series? I find it an excellent, and easy to understand, resource on how the different categories of the orchestral instruments work.
I love it because I never learned to play any kind of orchestral instrument, but I actually have the gall to compose orchestral music and it is supremely helpful to know what the different instruments ( or groups) are good at and what their limitations are.
Love it !
This content is very cool
All I can say is say - keep them coming. :D
You really killed me with the french thing. Anyways, great video, waiting to see the brass section!!
thank you very much
Anne: calm and teaching music with patience and passion
Also Anne : "Now some of these M*****F****** are transposing instruments"
As someone who did 12 years of Musical Formation, I felt that.
PS: Great content as usual, as a ( future ? :D ) composer which want to do films orchestrations, this channel is really helping me! Keep it up !
Update: "Of course it's the French"
I also felt that. Nous l'avons fait parce que...... c'est ArTiStIqUe. Voilà.
After watching this hilarious video this morning, I find myself eating Raclette and drinking Sancerre. Yeah. This is why we listen to the French.
This may be the greatest video ever. Informative yet I’m nearly wetting myself watching it.
Thanks Anne-Kathrin Dern
Former avid bassoon player here. I think there are - certainly for non-professionals - certain keys that are a lot more pleasurable to play. For example, the bassoon is basically built around F, but since I often played around string players of course I got used to other keys such as A major. But, for example, that's why Mozart's bassoon concerto is in B flat.
Also beware of downward octave slurs (again, I'm sure a professional would have no problem with this).
As for starting at a high pitch, every bassoon player knows the beginning of the Rite of Spring, so actually I think starting straight off in the upper register isn't too bad.
In terms of the clarinet. I think it's well-known the so-called chalumeau register has a particularly distinctive sound compared to other registers. Also I do believe that the clarinet overtone is not an octave but a 12th and supposedly that explains its incredible agility.
Ironically 😂 I was in a Zoom meeting with a buddy that I’m collaborating with I somehow in the conversation we stumbled upon transposing instruments. Whilst trying to explain the same concept, he looked completely BEWILDERED by what I was saying. Especially the whole “ written here but sounds here” thing 😅😅. Your parody reminded me of his EXACT reaction!! 😂😂😂😂
Great primer! I can't wait to hear your thoughts on writing for trombones though... 😂
As a clarinet and saxophone player, I agree with you x)
A German saying "noboby likes you french" 💀 Grüße aus Köln, Deutschland
Thanks for that rant about transposing instruments! 😂 I've always found the whole concept extremely irritating. Granted, coming from a non-woodwind, not-really-orchestral musical hobbyist, this doesn't mean much. Glad to hear that a pro like you roughly feels the same way.
Thanks
Woodwinds are a beautiful collection of instruments, very whimsical at times. I’ve recently started adding them to my music (rock + symphonic instruments) but they have such a unique sound that’s not always easy to incorporate.
Doubling is a useful technique, runs on the flute, and even though their timbres are so different they sound great playing chords. They’re definitely one of the most difficult sections to write for but a beautiful addition to music when written carefully and with purpose.
Oh, and transposing instruments are so annoying. That should have been corrected decades ago.
Try doubling the flute with a more percussive instrument like glockenspiel or xylophone - gives it more punch and worked really well for the Beach Boys back in the days (listen to "Sloop John B"). 😉
@@Fastvoice Thanks I'll have to give that a listen, but I already think I'm going to like that sound. Jordan Rudess, the keyboardist of Dream Theater, has a synth sound that seems to combine a flute with marimba or something similar. Wasn't a fan at first but I now appreciate how well it plays with a distorted guitar.
Instruments can have such a different perceived sound based on what they're playing along with, sometimes completely getting lost. When I first learned of doubling it completely changed how I approached composition (I must have thought it was taboo or something lol).
Love your videos, very illuminating. I've seen you mention flutes a few times, I'm curious do you ever use a wind or breath controller with your DAW, etc.?
It's such an amazing way to add expression, I view it like putting your DNA fingerprint on the sound. Seems like it would be a very natural thing for you in your work. There have been many great wind synth players and many of them have done film work like Nyle Steiner (Apocalypse Now), Michael Brecker, Tom Scott (first call woodwind player for everything), Steve Tavaglione, Bob Mintzer and many others. I'm leaving a number of people out. While many of these musicians used a woodwind-based controller (usually similar to flute/sax), there are also breath only input devices where you could use breath as an expressive control via MIDI.
I'm thinking of getting Cinematic Series Woodwinds - or should I take advantage of the Berlin Woodwinds and Berlin Solo Woodwinds (both)? Help me out here, I'm a newbie. (BTW, I loved your comedy regarding 'transposing instruments' - I've heard this is so that the fingering on the families of instruments would be consistent - I guess it's hard to grasp unless you've been there. Like if I were playing a reed and saw Bb I would remember to play the patterns I was familiar with? Still confused!
Concert-pitch “C scores,”conceptually at least, make it easier to see what pitches are being sounded. However, they also obscure “what’s going on” with the instrument itself.
For example, C-scores make the various register breaks and timbral registers harder to see. They make it harder to see what trills sound cleanly or not. They obscure what is easy vs. difficult to play, which is a big concern if you’re composing for high-school ensembles, for example.
Also, there’s the question of how to notate an alto sax, for example, in actual pitch: Its concert-pitch range doesn’t line-up very well with any clef. So, you’ll either end up counting ledger lines, or switching back and forth between tenor and treble clefs, potentially losing track of which clef you’re in as you hop between instruments across the score. *_Are we sure it isn’t easier to read the transposed score_* ?!
In short, Orchestration (and conducting) is as much about putting yourself in each performer’s seats, as it is writing the correct pitches in the correct tone colors, and that’s easier to see in a transposed score than on an actual-pitch score.
Great video Anne and so very true your a funny women,,, and you look incredible best wishes Phil UK England 👍🌼
I'd say the reason bass clarinet and saxophones are written in treble clef are for the players, it's much easier for a clarinet player to switch between the instruments in the family while reading the same notes with the same fingerings, instead of having to change their whole system based on the instrument, same with saxophones, you can play tenor and alto the same way with same fingerings, instead of having to change the way you play every note
Thanks!
Thank you so much for the support! ☺
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer You’re very welcome!
I'm a guitar player who has no background in orchestration or classical music. And am watching this video at 2 am at night with no exposure to any of your previous videos or any other videos on the subject matter. Life is strange. I think now would be a good time for me to seek professional medical help.
As a former strings player mystified by all instruments requiring air, I couldn't help but chuckle at all of the transposition that goes on in the woods. I think I'd be feeling passive aggressive too! The french I swear...
...but I was also one of the freaks that had to read in Alto clef, so I can't say much.
A while ago i had a beef with a young maestro about how non-transposed my scores are :P
Stepped back due to doubts if everything in C is indeed the norm today, but thanks for making me sure to stick with that
Great overview. Is there an estimate on how long woodwinds can hold a note in terms of beats? Tempo is off course a consideration I know, but say a moderate tempo?
This really depends on the pitch and especially the volume of the note, and each instrument has different lengths they can hold notes. The louder the note, the more frequently the player has to breathe. As a woodwind player I would have to work hard to hold a note longer than 8 bars at a moderate tempo unless it's piano or softer. Woodwinds don't play a lot of really long sustained notes (nor brass I think). I imagine those are best given to the strings. If you need to have sustained notes in the woodwinds, having the players trade off the notes every 4 bars or so should work well.