How An Upstart Upset Lionel's 6454 Boxcar Line
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- čas přidán 29. 12. 2022
- Episode 127: Lionel's X2454 and 6454 9 1/4" boxcars were well-detailed cars that represented the best of Lionel's early Postwar production. Then, they suddenly disappeared in 1953, never to return again!
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Lionel X2454 Boxcars: ebay.us/WDtVQo
Lionel 6454 Boxcars: ebay.us/CCPFaR
Why were they discontinued, and what role did Auburn Model Trains, a small Indiana startup manufacturer, play in their demise? And what became of AMT and its products?
Let's take a closer look at these neat and relatively inexpensive boxcars.
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A fun history lesson! Thanks! For those of you who operate toy trains for fun if you look at a real-life freight train you're going to see cars, box-and-otherwise, of all lengths and heights. Don't worry about perfect matching, real freights usually don't anyway. And Happy New Year to you and yours!
Thanks for watching and Happy New Year to you as well!
love the history vids. I remember my Lionel from late 19401s, Baby Ruth, double stack liquid carrier silver, gondola, silver box car where the boxes flipped out, milk car where man pushes out cans of milk onto a platform, and a caboose for the end. 80 years old now and I still remember like it was yesterday.
Added on UP passenger train, log cars operating, Erie Lockawana freight loco probably a GP20. I did not know what a GP20 was, but after working at EMD 35 years I gained some info.
Neat story. Thanks for watching! BTW, regardless of what Lionel called them, all of the Lionel "GP7/GP9/GP20" models were really GP7s. They never learned the difference, either! ;-)
Lionel dropped the frame with steps so they could be put in a cheaper box. Without the steps the trucks could be rotated underneath the car at a shorter box could be used. He was so cheap.
I recently bought a KMT reefer, a very well made car. Thank you for the history.
I love my AMT boxcar.
Personally I prefer the 2454/6454 boxcars. Even behind larger locos like the F3s, they look good. Way I see it, the old Lionel catalog artwork highlighted the massive, powerful locomotives, and with the smaller early postwar cars, thats what they look like hauling a train. In fact, we run mostly early postwar cars like these on the 1949 showroom layout replica I manage, which is fitting, because that layout was designed by Robert Sherman, who also was the illustrator for Lionel's catalogs, and so, the guy who drew those massive, powerful locomotives in the first place.
Interesting points. Thanks for your input!
I run all the different types of box cars it's alot of fun.
:-)
Thanks!
Tooling never dies, does it? It's funny how it goes on and on though several iterations.
And yet the 6454 never returned. But the Scout goes on and on and on...
Lionel use the AMT Passenger cars in their display layout in New York as well as in catalogs to show what they were going to make. He should have just bought cars from them but he wanted to put them out of business.
Honestly, I think a scale operator could run 6464 box cars and auburn box cars together and it would look ok, because I’ve seen real pictures of long lines of boxcars and not all of them are the same size so it looks acceptable to run the 6464 and auburn cars together, at least I think it does.
I agree ! I've seen that in the old films also.
There is a lot of discussion about proportion. Keep this in mind.Lionel was making toy trains for children. They refered to those toys as scale detailed not scale.Lionel did produce 0 scale prior to the second world war with the 700E and the much sought after scale freight cars in the 700 series.Sales were weak and the line was dropped. The one exception was the 773E in 1950 but it lacked many of the fine details of the 700E.
With the exception of the FAs and 44 Tonner, Lionel Postwar diesels were more or less scale-proportioned models. The 6464 cars were a "happy medium" as they were "close enough" to look okay with F3s and GP7s without being gargantuan in comparison to a Pensy Turbine. However, I wish Lionel had kept the 6454 line going as they are more detailed than the Scout-series cars for O27 operation - especially with the nicer (but still undersize) Postwar steamers.
I have a 1948 scout babe Ruth boxcar. I have no idea what they were thinking with the couplers on the scout sets. Fantastic review of the history of these cars.
Thanks. The idea was to create an operating coupler that was cheap enough to compete with the "top" if the Marx line. Keep in mind when the Scouts arrived in 1948 the regular Lionel coupler was the all-metal electromagnetic type with pickup shoes and a coil for each coupler that was very expensive to make.
For years you had 36 ft cars still in service which had been updated and rebuilt over the years for instance a 36 ft car in the 20s would have had archbar trucks. The 36-ft car in the 40s or 50s would have steel trucks like the Bettendorf. Small tank cars were used to service the small Oil Dealers that used to be scattered around the country until the oil company decided to shut them down and have you drive next to their tanker trucks on a highway ain't that fun. All of the 36 ft cars would have been out of service by the seventies except for work train usage. There was a great variety of sizes and Heights of boxcars in the old days depending on the manufacturer the railroad bought the car from which made a nice variety none of the cars for all the same size. Everybody uses the excuse that both scale trains are too big and require too much room but then they have a humongous Museum scale ho railroad layout which is even bigger than most O scale layouts were in the old days. If you were in the 1950s it modeled old time trains from the wild west era you would have short locomotives and small Freight and Passenger cars. These would be able to transfer scale curves equivalent to Ho curves. Standard gauge ran mostly on 042 radius so even on a 4x8 or 5x9 sheet of plywood you could have a double track standard gauge Railroad. Small steam engines are small electric engines will not pull 100 car trains so short trains with small engines are prototypical like on a branch line. Eo27 size cars will fit a particular time. But not later.
I have some of those, including the Peacemaker shown, plus Southern, Northern and Super Chief!
They're very nice cars for their era.
Enjoyable video!
Thanks for sharing.
And thanks for watching!
Thanks for the history lesson.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the videos keep them coming.
Thanks!!
Also interesting is how many different companies have made the Baby Ruth candy bar!
And how many versions Lionel made!
Thank you for the informative presentation. Your expertise answered my questions about differences and comparisons of the boxcar product line development. I enjoyed your video very much.👍
Happy to help. Thanks for the feedback!
That was a very detailed explanation.
Thanks for watching!
I got to find me one of those Ford Motorcraft boxcars like you got in this video.
They came in "The Allegheny" set circa 1971-72. They're relatively common.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks Guess I gotta keep my eyes peeled 😆
Great history lesson! also, nice idea for a video.
Thanks! And thanks for watching!
Glad to say i own 2 of the MPC boxcars for my rather small MPC/Modern era layout
The condensed version of the steam turbine is ridiculously small more like a scale. These box cars fit behind the Lionel fa series of locomotives very well as well as the smaller steamers. You could have a small steam locomotive in a correct size where you can't have a large steam locomotive squished to fit 027 track you could but it looks silly like the steam turbine. Lionel should have divided his trains into two lines the 027 could have been Lionel Junior for kids less scale detailed sturdier more play value. Then for the adult model railroaders and their fathers they could have the scale size engines and the scale size cars. Lionel downsize the scale of the GT1 to fit 031 curves. If he came out with a scale gg1 that took 042 curves people would have bought new track to be able to run the bigger locomotive and you could still fit an oval of that on a 4x8-ft plywood. A diecast gg1 with two Motors would have been a fantastic pulling locomotive and if you had two of them you could pull every car in your basement. My dad would run five diesel locomotives and trains of 100 cars. The basement would fill with the smell of ozone. Good old days
Did they not do that in the MPC era with Standard O and O or O27 lines then promptly go into bankruptcy again?
@@rangerstl07 Lionel trains under General avails listed in business for like 20 years. They made lots of good stuff and they made it here. Once the company was sold it seemed every other year it was sold to somebody else. Frankly I don't care for anything that Lionel makes anymore.
I don`t know who made them, but I`ve been looking for a Dutch cleanser box car for a while. Good Show !
www.ebay.com/itm/266059804651
The 6454 and 6464 cars are a better match for 027 with tighter turns in a smaller layout. This was pointed out in video and supports the need for slightly smaller rolling stock to match up with 027 non scale engines. No need for scale when the room is not available on 027 layouts just for entertainment. Just as much enjoyment with shorter/smaller cars when all the others in use are the same scale/undersize. It was pointed out that in real RR the size was a mix. So mixing scale and toy sizes is apparently realistic for persons concerned about mixed visual look. I did not realize that. Thank you for all information here.
Thanks for watching and Happy New Year!
The post war two bay hopper, 3 dome tank and the single dome "chemical" tank are close to scale. Gondola looks alright. Really steam and big electric engines were scaled down the most.
If the “pacemaker” box car is scale then what are the “modern” offerings that are way bigger than the “pacemaker” scale car? Modern in the box are huge compared to what is indicated as scale in this video.
The Pacemaker is a scale 40' boxcar - the most common boxcar of the 1940s and 1950s. Contemporary 50' and 60' boxcars are both longer and taller. A scale model of a Piper Cub is smaller than a scale model of a B52 even when both are modeled to the same scale.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricksA time period for steamers would be prior to the 50’ and 60’ box cars becoming standard freight thus smaller 6454 & 6464 works. One can see I’m referring to size and not the actual trueness of the scale. Obviously the postwar is scale looking but not scale size 1/48 trueness. They are more 1/52 or 1/55 scale. “O” scale used interchangeably with 027 Lionel when sold new as toys for kids. So 6464 & 6454 box car being closer to 1/55 or 1/52 scale size makes them a good fit with those post war sub 027 sized Lionel engines. Lionel was a mixed bag of big (“O”) and small (027) sized engines and rolling stock. And a lot of the “O” engines were the smaller 027 with a different number.
To me proportionally from the side the 6454s look like 40 foot boxcars and 6464s look like the early 50 foot boxcars of the 1960s. I know the true scale is way out of wack on both.
Yes, the 6454s would be close to 40' cars in 1/64 scale.
My biggest question is what happened to the two dome tank cars and why didn't they make them in other scales.....
I'm sure they didn't see the need. The real twin dome tanks were pretty well obsolete by the 1940s.
Dear toy trains tips and tricks what was the title of the music you used to use in your intro?
Cheers.
It's called "Vibin' 53". See the video description for more info and licensing.
@@ToyTrainTipsAndTricks thanks man it's i nice tune.
I don't think it is possible to mould the entire box of a scout in a single shot.
Sure Lionel will be caught napping again. 😏
What about the two dom tank car way was it abandoned Lionel had two different styles but hardly any other companies made it in any other scale except for a company called globe in HO SCALE which I have to of them And now it is practically lost to time...
The twin dome design was really a 1920s design on real railroads. It was already somewhat obsolete by the time Lionel produced it.
Refreshingly objective about the 6464s, which are farther away from being "scale" models--all proportions considered--than the 6454 series. And the 6014 series? A perfectly good S scale model of a rebuilt USRA boxcar, but on O gauge trucks (like prewar AF). The PROPORTIONS of the two earlier series are much more accurate than the later trumpeted 6464 series--they just aren't 1:48. But even the undersized Alcos rather emphasize the smallness of the 6454s, although, as you point out, they look wonderful behind locomitives using the USRA-style prewar shell (e.g. 224 or 1666). I think that if Lionel had bitten the bullet and produced a scale height PS-1 in 1953 they might have halted the mass exodus to HO. Another irony (obliquely referenced by one of your followers below) is that when Lionel first started to make toy trains, three rails was a perfectly prototypical way to run electric trains--until the third rail was banned in places (e.g. Connecticut) for safety reasons. As late as 1960 prototypical locomotives were manufactured that could run from overhead, outside third rail, or diesel-generated power (EMD FL-9). Lionel's third rail was a logical choice, not an arbitrary decision. I give great credit to those (like you) who can follow Lionel's logic to assemble beautiful looking consists out of the postwar jumble.
Thank you!!
I have both sizes and I love both type of box cars because on real trains from the 50s and even today the cars are different sizes.
My big question and quark is what ever happened to the twin dome tank car Lionel made tow different virgins of it in O..scale thay where Off scale but not bad but rarely none exist in a annie other scale way is that that this car is to be denied existence....
ps my favorite is the Sunoco...
In the Postwar era, various versions of the 2 dome tanker were made between 1946 and 1964. The cars were actually close to scale, based on a 1920s era prototype.
I have one of the Sunoco ones!