Completed the calibration. It sounds perfect. Better result than I ever got with Audyssey. Highly recommended and well worth the effort. Thanks again for the tutorial👍
thank you for your effort ,great content and i agree that Dynamic Eq is not prefect and manual is a grate think but there is one think with Dynamic EQ that in REW i couldn't do is sound stage is more pronounced with Dynaimc EQ on
How do you get to play the .mp4 files through the height speakers - for example when I try playing the TFR, the sound plays through my right speaker, not the height channel...any inputs please. I have a 5.2.4 setup using Denon x4300h AVR.
You shoukd disconnect REW from the amp from ASIO controls and select your amp as default player in Windows. Then WMP should play these files from the correct channel.
After Struggling for a few days, I finally made the file atmos measurements. I was getting low volume measurements (-16DB) after checking all my PC sound settings, and then noticed that once my Marantz SR6014 receiver flipped into Atmos mode, a new Surround parameter showed up called Loudness Compensation and it was flipped to On, I switched it off and the the measurements came through at the correct level. Also, in Atmos mode the Graphic EQ item switched to Front Speaker. Hopefully this means that you can't adjust the EQ while in Atmos and not that EQ isn't used in the Atmos mode.
GEQ shows up the channels which it can detect in the signal coming to HDMI. You need to play any one of the supplied .mp4 sweeps (just a few seconds) with Windows Media Player to bring them all up.
I was calibrating my subwoofers and they needed to be +30 feet over the center channel reference. Marantz only allows for a maximum of 20 feet delta between the lowest and the highest distance settings. Do you know of any way to get around this or is this distance not even reasonable?
Are you using a minidsp? That's known to cause extra delays (thus distance) due to processing inside. You can try switching the phase of the subwoofer. Almost all of them have a phase switch button.
I am having issues with Level Low when checking levels. In the Sound settings, I have Marantz output volume set at 60% and UMIK-1 input volume set at 60%. This results in decible reading of 74 db (level low) at 20-250 Hz (this db reading confirmed with decible meter) and reading of 49 db (level low) at 20-22k Hz. I also have the subwoofers volume turned way down - what should they be set at?. How do I bring up the readings to Level OK level? Does low level affect the results?
It's not optimal if REW reports that level is low. It means it's having difficulty stripping signal from the background noise. You should ask that in AVNirvana REW forums. John will have the accurate answer to your question. Try using ASIO drivers if you are on Java. Also check Windows sound settings for all levels. Something must be dimmed down somewhere.
I thought I saw in one of your videos where you took multiple measurement locations for a certain speaker and then averaged these together and applied eq. Do you use vector or rms averaging for the multiple measurements and then apply eq to that average? Could you refer me to which video this subject was discussed? Thanks.
It's in the very recent "Supreme Digital Room Correction" video. The measurements there are very close to each other: center, left ear and right ear so a vector average is advised. More importantly , you should take more than one measurement at each point for each speaker and eliminate ones with odd phase graps before averaging. Frequently, there'll be odd ones. After that, vector averaging will work just fine. Use RMS averaging when determining a common target curve for left and right speakers together (after applying FDW:15 to each speaker).
Dear OCA, you are a god send angel with the fabulous skill with art of teaching. With your help I am getting bit of clarity on REW. I am not able to set the speaker distanc ebelow 2.65m on my x6500. I sthere any work around for that?
You should be able to go as low as 0.04m in distance settings. Try resetting all the distances or master resetting the Receiver if the issue continues.
Hey First of all thanks for this guide. My AVR ist quite old (Denon x3500h) and it seems that there is no "Low Frequency Effects" option available. Is there a workaround or should I just deduct the 10db boost from the actual measurement?
You'll need to check if there's SPL difference between 20-200Hz and 20-20,000Hz measurements of the sub and compensate for it with Measurement Actions / SPL offset if any.
Some more notes on my experience. A Mac cannot be used for this process because it can only output 8 channel PCM, not bitstream, plus the LR channels have an inexplicable 20 ms delay when the proper distance is entered into the AVR. The pc does not exhibit this delay. My marantz sr6014 has hidden menus that are only available depending on sound mode, web menus or tv menus. I was tripped up yesterday by the hidden loudness setting that only shows up when Atmos is on and today I have to remeasure everything because I had to change the speaker impedance from 8 ohms to 4 because my LR are 6 ohm and my front heights are 4 ohm. You can only access this setting from the front panel of the AVR with a series of button presses. Anyway, it helps to read the manual 5 times, as almost every setting has multiple footnotes and exceptions.
I will ask around in the forums because I am sure some Mac users achieved to play thes efiles. I will let you know. I didn't know you can change impedance in these AVRs (I have 6015). I will try that.
I don't have any idea how to use Logic Pro so what I'm going to try to do is amp assign the dolby speakers to surround back, use Audio Midi setup to select a 7.1 rear surround set up, and then use the regular REW workflow. I only have a 5.1.2 setup so it may not be workable for those with more speakers.
My front right speaker seemingly shifts polarity after EQ which then messes up vector averaging. I know that my room isn't ideal but is there anything I can do to overcome that?
Yes! The two frequency response curves look similar but when I check the impulse graphs the highest peak flips from where it was previously. This speaker does have more correction than the others as a result of being almost in a corner which is unavoidable.
@@zaidmullins2642 The drop in VA is related to the large phase difference between left and right and is quite normal given asymmetric placement. You should still crossover them with where the vector average intersects withbthe sub but if the level seems too absurd try taking RMS Average of FL and FR instead and use that.
So if I got it right at the end you mention different crossover points for the bed layer speakers. Is that correct? Shouldnt the crossovers of all bed layer speakers be 80hz if you hace adequate speakers? At least the front LCR?
Thanks for your nice thoughts. I wouldn't suggest that since you will need to phase (time) align 4 different woofers in the room at four different locations or else they will almost always either cancel or multiply each other at certain frequencies causing bass peaks and dips. If you align for that, then this will have to be different than the required time alignment for these speakers to fire at the right time to reach the LP. So you can have good bass but no coherence between speakers in your bed layer. I suggest investing in a powerful subwoofer(s) and leave the bass management to that. Also it's not easy to phase align 4 woofers correctly. You'll need something like MSO.
I have watched the video a couple of times. I have a Marantz AV7703 and was trying to access the web interface like in your video. I put in the IP address and it says access forbidden. How else can I change the receiver settings? The manual setup on the receiver front panel does not have the option to change most of these settings you change in the video.
Unfortunately I've never used a pre-amp/processor before and may be their menus are different. Regarding the web interface, did you check if DHCP is set to ON in network settings? It could be related to your router settings or maybe if HEOS is ON, it might be blocking web interface.
I was able to access the speaker settings via the Marantz remote control app (from original comment). I started to check each speaker with pink noise. I have audio from computer hdmi going into Marantz front panel AUX 1. There are 5 soundfields to select: 1. Multi Channel Stereo Virtual (all speakers), 2. Virtual Stereo (FR,FL,Sub Only), 3. Stereo Dolby Surround (FR,FL,Sub Only), 4. Dolby Surround DTS Neural X (all speakers), 5. DTS Neural X Multichannel Stereo (all speakers). Pink noise plays in all speakers simultaneously for modes 2,3. For modes 4,5 noise plays through correct speakers for channels 1,2,3 with remaining channels playing through center speaker. For mode1, all left side speakers play for channel 1, all right side speakers for channel 2, all speakers for channels 3-8. Should I not use the front panel and use an input on the back panel? What did you use on your Marantz for the video?
@@steveaidt6138 The speaker output should be independent of the receiver sound mode settings. Check your ASIO4ALl settings in REW. Are you seeing all 8 channels? If so then it should be your Windows Media Player sending only stereo channels. Check if Marantz is the default player in Windows sound settings. Problem is on the PC side.
I got the speakers in REW to work correctly. The spatial settings on the computer were not working so found a command on the web that allowed all speakers to show up. Once I started doing measurements, when the tone can be heard, there is also a crackly static plays along with the tone. Have you ever experienced this? Not sure if it is affecting the measurement results.
@@steveaidt6138 Speaker crackling is almost always caused by a connection problem. Someplace between your amplifier and your speaker driver, there’s a bad wire which is causing the driver to move abruptly, causing interference. You should not be needing a Web command to trigger atmos speakers, the mp4 files I've supplied already have the correct speaker direction info in them. Try using Flexasio instead of Asio4All or try using Java Exclusive drivers and see if the problem persists.
In setting up REW 6.50 minutes in to this video my screen has 30 options for default equalizer. Can you please advise how I bring up the screen you show giving the option under "Model" where you can load the configurable PEQ file And do I actually need to load this file to correctly complete this process ? I have a miniDSP 10x10 in my system and noted that it is included under default equalizer options
İt's under "Generic" and then second option is Generic PEQ and the filter I supply in the link gives the automation defaults like 0.5dB steps, etc but you can also create it yourself but with a Minidsp 10x10 you can do much better of course.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks for the quick reply. Just to confirm, I can load the results directly in to the miniDSP but I need to use Generic to create the filters ? Under Preferences (I am running REW V5.20.13 in Windows 10) in the Equaliser Tab there are 30 default options starting with TMREQ and ending with Generic. I do see under default Equaliser "Manufacturer" Generic and Model where your file is loaded 7.30 minute's into the video
@@neilpage1185 What's your speaker configuration? Minidsp 10x10 can do 7.1 at best and that's not enough for height channels if you have 7.1.4 system for example.
They are the same curves as long as you keep "LF rise" & "HF Fall" the same and 10Hz-20Hz doesn't matter as none of the speakers tested can go that low.
@@ocaudiophile I compared the 2 curves for purpose learning and are identical :) I can now compare things thank's to your tutorial, I'm using rew more easily 🙌💪
I am playing the 256k sweep files. REW set up just like on video to play sweep files. LF, LR, and C channels will play on correct speaker. Files for SL, SR, SBL, SBR, TFL, TFR, TRL, TRR will only play on the Back Surround speakers (L/R). Do you know why the files will not play on the correct speakers? This is on Marantz AV7703 which has the same functionality/setup essentially as your Marantz 6015. My system is set up as 11.1.4.
If I remember correctly, someone else with the same gear had the same problem but eventually solved it. I will check past comments. It could be under another video (the first one about the same subject). Please also check for yourself. I think you need to switch to some sound mode on the pre-amp but I am really not sure, never had a pre-amp.
@@ocaudiophile I could never get my setup to read the Atmos sweep files using Windows Media Player. I installed the VLC player and was able to set to Bitstream to read the sweep files on the correct speakers.
Great video OCD. I'm using an REW Mac version 5.20.13 but I can't see a configurable PEQ in the filter preferences, just a list of manufacturers and generic. Any ideas how to resolve?
Nice, but can you do a video for that , using the audyssey PC App? Would be great to have such a good manual for the Multi EQ X Windows App, that should be able to push the sound on a even higher level
I don't have the MultEQ-X app and the trial version didn't show much of what's inside. Frankly, I don't think I will ever need it but if I do, I will certainly launch a video on it.
Hello OCA, Your videos are gold ! A quick question though. In your previous video, you add frequency dependent window before EQ, but you didn't this time, why is that?
FDW is a way of windowing the response to avoid correcting for reflections in the high frequencies. There are other ways, too. And most target curves are designed for no FDW responses.
How do you have the zone distance ? when I try to mesure distance between impulse with shift key, REW told me that "Metrics are not available for this graph"
Dear OCA, thanks for this tutorial. Questions on Subwoofer calibration, 1. Using center channel as acoustic time reference, I tried to get impulse response for Subwoofer. According to REW, the distance between center peak impulse and Subwoofer peak comes out at 9 metre... I have tried to reverse Polarity on the Subwoofer, but no luck. What am I doing wrong? 2. Peak impulse of center channel points down. However peak impulse of subwoofer points upwards (regardless of position or negative) polarity. What causes it and how to fix this? Thanks a lot in advance.
9m is a bit too much. Are you using a Minidsp or internal DSP of the subs? They can both cause extra delays. But it's not a big deal, you can align the sub's first impulse peak (not the highest peak) to the centre channel instead. Distance will be shorter and doable in the receiver settings. Impulse peak direction of the sub might be changing from measurement to measurement due to the crossovers in the sub and/or the receiever. Again not a big deal, it can be in opposite direction with the speakers. Compare its phase response with the speakers (in Overlays/phase) and pick the polarity that has the best phase harmony.
OCA, Thank you so much for putting the time to make all these videos. I'm learning so much by just watching your tutorials. When playing the Atmos sweeps with Windows Media Player, my levels are really low. Is there another setting I should be looking for? All the bed layers played fine with no warnings from REW, only when playing the atmos sweeps do I get the level too low warning from REW.
Either your reciever's loudness management (or whatever the name it has in your model) setting is left "on" - just turn it off or you've one of those models which dim atmos channels depending on their dialnorm settings for which there's no cure other than increasing the volume while measuring them. There's a list of Denon/Marantz models which are effected by this but I couldn't find the link now.
@@ocaudiophile okay thank you for the reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I'll research to see if my model den on is the one that is affected by
Another question, if I may? Do we still have to do several measurements for each speaker like three mic positions? And then cross correlate, time align, and then optimize gains? Is that correct?
Hi OCA! I followed your excellent videos, but I'm having some issues with my adjusting the timing of my subwoofer. The 100% impulse are very late and I'm not sure if it's a phase problem. I'm unable to delay the sub further. Any chance I can share my REW results somehow for you to see?
You can of course especially if you're equalising for a large area but single central point will be good enough for most purposes and will be impressive enough if you follow the procedure correctly.
Good evening, the time alignment of the speakers, is it done with the crossover on the denon on full band or in small(bass management on)? does it depend on how we use the speakers to listen? Thank you
There'll be very small time delays caused by crossovers versus full range measurements. It's best to remeasure and check speaker distances at the end of the calibration.
Thank you; great video! i wanted to try it, but the sweeps from the top-Speakers are only played by the correspondent floor-speaker, so for example: TFL is played by FL, etc..!? Any advice?
@@ocaudiophile Sorry🙂; Yes i'm using ASIO drivers (ASIO4ALL v2), Windows 10 Lenovo Notebook and i tried VLC and Windows Media Player, it's a 5.1.4 system which is configured to Auro3D and the AVR is Denon AVC-X4700H (and i'm also measuring funny values for the SW (15.8m) like Daniel Collins)! As a beginner i tried to do everything as you explained! It's a great help for me, because my idea is to hear the difference from manual calibration and Audyssey-Calibration.
@@didi_p7756 There's the first video on this subject where you can find more details on activating dolby channels.If you already watched it and still cannot get top sepakers, it could be related to Auro which is not likely but since I don't have it or ever used it, it's a possibility. FYI VLC needs to be configured dirst but WMP works with defualt settings. Make sure your reciever is selected as default playert also in Windows Sound settings. For subwoofer distance, I need more info. Are you using a Minidsp? DId you reset all distances to 3.00m initially while measureing speakers?
@@ocaudiophile Thank you for your tips! I think you are right that it is related to Auro. For some reason the AVR is switching into 'Auro 3D' sound mode when i send one the files for the Heights-Speakers; i changed the sound mode into 'PURE/Direct' and then it works!? I will try a little bit more tomorrow and see if i can come to a result. Concerning the subwoofer, i don't use a miniDSP and i reset all the distances as you discribed; but in the Overlay/Levels-Tab i'm always measuring about 7,80m!? Maybe it's because my speakers are low-budget-ones and not so good!
@@didi_p7756 Measure the sub for 25-120Hz range and check the impulse peak distance to the impulse peaks of other aligned speakers. It will almost never be the expected distance of the sub to the LP but still 7-8 metres without extra processing like Minidsp inbetween doesn't look normal.
How did you find the initial distance for the center channel? Did you do a center channel sweep with the acoustic ref of the center channel too? Because when i did that i didn’t get a distance in the rew description. All it says is a delay.
Curious if you ever tried the ‘moving mic’ method for taking measurements or are you of the view one (stationary) measurement position at the MLP is sufficient?
Multiple measurements have advantages compared to single point but moving mic measurements will lose phase data which is not ideal for optimal correction. However, it could yield good results with Marantz Denon line receivers as the correction options are limited to a graphic equaliser.
@@ocaudiophile Makes sense! let me tell you something…….you are an EQ ‘animal!’. I doubt there is anyone more knowledgeable in this area (at least in respect to Marantz/Denon users such as us). THANKS AGAIN!
Oh, forgot to ask. In respect to taking multiple measurements (for each speaker) at the MLP what form of averaging do you recommend (e.g. vector averaging or rms averaging or another form of averaging)?
Hi, great channel. I have two questions: the first is why should the subwoofer be aligned with the center channel and not with a front left or right speaker? the second question is: how do you know that the center used as an acoustic reference is three meters from the listening point? did you measure it with a tape measure from the speaker to the mic? Thanks so much
Thanks! You're free to choose any speaker as the acoustic reference and as long as you keep the same speaker as reference while measuring others, they will all be time aligned relative to this speaker. I chose center because I could manually measure its distance to the LP. I used iPhone "measure" app for that. It doesn't need to be very accurate, but other speakers including the sub should be perefectly aligned relative to that speaker for best Atmos experience. If the acoustic reference speaker distance is manually measured longer than it really is for example, you will only have a slightly larger sound bubble but sound will still move accurately along the speakers.
can you please explain more on how you get that smoothing impulse response ? like the blue one .. is there some plot window settings you apply ? im struggling to get the exact plot like yours THX 🙏 asio4all even on my laptop and pc with nvidia gfx seems to have big crackling and bad quality sound issues.. i will try AsioFlex or stay with Wasapi
Hi OCA - Thanks again for answering my earlier question. A user asked what would be the better way to follow your videos and you suggested that starting with the subs could be a good idea. In this video, after applying EQ to the center channel, the target SPL dropped around 31 mins. You mentioned to boost it to get to the target of 65.9 which was the target spl from your sub. Is this still correct to do? Again thank you!!!
Yes, and as long as you adjust all speakers to the same level, it doesn't make a difference. Just remember that Audyssey cannot apply more than a total of 20dB to any channel i.e. if a filter has -16dB gain and you additionally drop the SPL of that speaker -5dB, Audyssey will not be able to apply both of them (16+5=21) and cap the total drop to -20dB.
@ocaudiophile I just wanted to drop by again and say thank you! After reviewing almost all of your reviews over and over. I finished calibrating my 7.2.4 system and boy the difference is day and night. My 2 SVS PB 2000 were already thunderous but not the way it blends with the other speakers has transferred my everything. The atmos is something else right. Watching a quiet place felt like I was watching for the first time! The atmos was just amazing!. Thanks again OCA
Why i don't have the distance tool to measure distance between impulses in my REW?. Why don't I have PEQ option in Eq In my REW? Are those functions limited to Apple based REW?
I am using a Windows based REW in the videos. To measure distance you press keyboard CTRL key and mouse right click and move your mouse. For PEQ you need an early access REW version which I must have given a link for in the decsription section but here you go: www.avnirvana.com/threads/v5-20-14-early-access-build.11154/
Hello, what should I do, can you please help me? There is no option to choose an Equaliser model in REW. I can only choose Generic equaliser, and there are no EQ Filters shown. What should I do?
@@ocaudiophile Thank you very much for your answer. This is the most comprehensive and detailed REW Home Theater tutorial I've seen. And I believe the only one providing the separate ATMOS level sweeps. Thanks.
Excellent videos. I’m just starting out with rew and got stuck at the impulse response part. Nothing’s happening when I click and drag in the overlay window. So I’m not able to measure the delay. Any idea what it could be?
Macs have problems playing the Atmos sweeps as they don't use HDMI bypass DD+. Watch this video for Mac calibration: czcams.com/video/LwORN-tSPjk/video.html
True. And the reason why I bought this receiver is that it has 4 individual sub outs. Unfortunatelly those can't be EQ'd independently, so only one global EQ is applied. Levels and distances can be set individually. I have been using MiniDSP and MSO before and I was hoping that Marantz could do close the same. It can't, but with 4 subs I can get it pretty good anyways.
Good morning OCA. I have one question. I have followed your method and fine tuned my 4 Atmos speakers. TFL/TFR/TRL/TRR. When I input the EQ after room/target curve in the receivers no matter How the system won't show TFL EQ channel it's always jump to FTR . I have reset my Marantz 7010.. but can't get to that particular Atmos channel. Could you please quide. Tq
You need to feed the receiver with an Atmos signal for these equalizer settings to show up. Just start playing any Atmos sweep and they will show up and stay there for a bit even after the signal is stopped.
@@kalaimani7354 I have never experienced that. They come and go altogether in mine. Maybe try using the web intetface? It's easier to enter all these values there anyway.
@@ocaudiophile I have miniDSP setup connected to my two subs. I tried changing the phase from zero to 90 and 180 - the peaks only moved further away from the center and yet couldnt get to flip the wave. also the max sub distance in Denon is 25.5ft and still the peak was way away from zero.
@@sammywonks404 It's the delay MiniDSP is introducing to the line which causes large distance offsets. You can align the first impulse peak of the sub (not the highest peak) to time 0 instead. This will also produce good results and the direction problem will be fixed.
I downloaded your files, but the surround files are playing through my front channel. I don't have ASIO4ALL. Is that required in order for the files to play to the proper speaker. I've time aligned everything using REW sweeps for C,L,R,SL,SR... in REW the SBL and SBR won't play. The work-around I might do, but wanted to ask first is to connect each of my other speakers to a known channel and find distance and eq from there and carry settings over to the proper channel. Then leave the known channel for last. Thoughts? Update: I got asio4all to work. I didn’t realize there wouldn’t be a shortcut to the control panel of the app. It’s only accessible after selecting it in REW. I will try the surround speakers again tomorrow.
Yes, you need to use either ASIO or Java Wasapi Exclusive drivers to access surround channels. I used to apply the workaround you've come up with for Atmos channels in the past. You can get their response correctly but it becomes very hard to get the right timings. You have to compensate for the distance of the speaker output you're using for the particular channel, etc. Far easier and cleaner to do with the played sweeps.
Ok. I watched your longer video on this. In that video we disable asio4all to give windows full control when playing your sweep files. That didn’t didn’t solve the named file playing to the correct speaker. In sound settings in windows I had to turn of Dolby atmos and set the format for Marantz to be “24 bit, 48000 Hz (Studio Quality)”. I also turned off spatial audio. Once I did this, the files played to the correct speaker.
Hi OCA, I am a little confused. I just been back over my impulse response's and I think I am reading them incorrectly, Pitty I cant send you a screen capture or the File I understand that the impulse response should be read at the highest peak and they should all be the same either pointing up or down My center speaker response's fist peak is on zero (SPL is +90) but its not the highest peak the second peak is higher (SPL is -100 pointing down and late) I,ve tried increasing the distance in the Emotiva XMC 2 but it will not shift So at this point I can not move forward until I know where the problem might be I have measured all 7.1 speakers but haven't aligned them yet pending the issue with the center speaker. I also note that they are all pointing down at -100 SPL and they are all at the second impulse peak. The first impulse like the center vary between SPL+75 to +90 Thanks in advance Neil
Further to the above, The Mic is dead center As a possible work around should I move all the other speakers to match the center ? The center speakers second peak is 0.012m positive to zero
If you have selected the Center speaker as acoustic timing reference then its peak will always be at 0 regardless of what distance setting you use in the receiver for it. As per the second peak, it means that there's a large reflection near the center speaker. 100% SPL means, you're plotting Impulse peak normalized, you can untick that option from the settings in the upper right corner.
Awesome video. Thanks so much! Quick question: I’m running a Yamaha RX-A8A. At the 9 min mark you talk about deceasing LFE within the surround parameter. I’ve hunted through all my menu options on the amp and can’t see anywhere to make this type of adjustment. Do you have any suggestions as to how I might deal with it otherwise? Thanks
@@ocaudiophile two other question if I can… at around 17min you go into EQ to calculate your target shape, but you use the full range sub measurement rather than the measurement just using LFE range. Why is that? Or would they give the same target (but not the same timing? In your earlier video you were taking multiple speaker measurements post time alignment and then cross correlating + vectoring to get a better response for multiple listening distances. Is it worth doing that for the subwoofer as well? Thanks
When you measure only low frequencies, the receiver will boost the signal by 10dB thinking it's a special signal for the LFE channel. If you dimmed LFE volume by -10dB in the receiver, this is also ok. If you send full range signal, receiver will not boost the sound and keep it the same as other speakers regardless of the LFE volume setting in the receiver. Low frequency response wouldn't be different at different locations so unless your measurement positions are quite far away from each other, you don't really need to do that. But if you're measuring LF response for a home cinmea with 6 seats, you would benefit from cross corr align and vector averaging.
I know others have said it too but your videos are unbelievably helpful (especially for a beginner like me trying to maximise everything out of their system). Thank you so much for producing such amazing content I haven’t seen anything anywhere as good and comprehensive. The fact you are willing to also help people out by answering all their questions is just awesome!! Thank you!!
Very nice video!! i am new to all this and still learning. When checking the subwoofer level it will play way to loud if im at my lisening volume. Would i adjust my volume of the receiver untill it hits the 75 db in rew or should i turn my receiver to lisening volume and adjust the subwoofer on the back?? Most other videos recommend to have your receiver at 0db while measuring speakers and subwoofer. Sorry for my engllish i am from the Netherlands. Thank you in advanced!!!
Always measure your speakers at the volume you watch your movies. The subwoofer level relative to other speakers can be seen in REW/All SPL tab graphs after you measure every speaker and subwoofer from 0 to 24,000Hz. You can adjust the individual volumes from the receiever menu (+- 10dB) but if the subwoofer volume is outside this range, you should change it first from the subwoofer's own volume knob.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks for your fast respons. I did what you said and i got it to 75 db at listining level. I just cant get the target sub right. I dont know what i am doing wrong. All the other staps in the video are going well bud since i dont have the right sub target curve to start with it doesn't make sense i guess. I will keep trying
Hey mate please help me . I have few questions. 1) Lets say if i keep the LFE effects at -12db & eq'ed or time aligned with speakers at 75db ( here you did at around 65) . After volume aligning everything at 75 if i change the LFE effecta from -12db to 0db will that increase my subwoofer over all spl level ( lets say from 75db to 80db or so ) ? 2) if i follow your other video where you EQ'ed the subwoofers & time aligned the subwoofers b/w each other . In that case how can i time align align the subwoofers with center channel , where all my other speskers are time aligned to the center channel. I tried to time align the subs after time aligning the subs b/w esch other but if i look at the impulse response & try to time align them with center channel then the distance is huge where my denon doesn't go to that extent. What should i do in this case. Should i just time align both subs b/w each other ? Or is there any other way to align the subs with center channel.. I can only do one. Aligning both subs to center channel or aligning both subs to each other rather than center channel. I cant avoid the time alignment b/w the subwoofers because i am EQ'ng the subs using your method & entering the PEQ to the bulit in dsp of the subwoofers.
1) LFE volume only effects special effect *.1 channel in the surround mix. The channel is boosted by 10dB by Dolby standards and -12dB will only remove this extra boost. It will not change the general subwoofer volume level crossed over with speakers. My Marantz LFE volume setting is limited to -10dB btw, only speaker volume level settings go down to -12. Make sure you're not changing the wrong adjustment. 2) If you cannot time align the combined subwoofer impulse highest peak with the center speaker, try to align an earlier impulse peak. This is not optimal but will still sound better than Audyssey's own adjustments. If you are using MiniDSP to EQ subs, that will also introduce extra delays and speaker distance setup will not be enough to align peaks properly. I ended up removing MiniDSP and the second sub altogether for the perfect sub time alignment. In your specific case, you could try plugging both subs directly to the Denon, time aligning them separately with the center channel, apply an initial PEQ to both and finally apply a correction to their sum output with the method in the tutorial.
@@ocaudiophile hi mate , thanks for the quick reply. I also have MULTEQ-X software for another room setup with subwoofer which didn't have any built-in PEQ's. I think I can directly connect both subs to the denon & time align them with the center channel , later I'll follow your video tutorial where after aligning the subs to the center channel , I'll align both subs b/w themselves & I'll generate PEQ'S . These PEQ I'll enter in the Audyssey PC app For the 1st room setup I'll follow whatever you said above.
I've one more doubt . In the first room setup i think I can time align both subs combined ( average of both sub at MLP ) to the center channel & then i can follow your optimal subwoofer calibration tutorial. I can individually align subs with the center channel & again time align b/w the subs.. this will go beyond denon sub distance.
***** I can't individually align subs with the center channel & again time align b/w the subs.. this will go beyond denon sub distance. **** Small correction to the previous reply
@@Robin-rq1jo Phase aligning two subs between each other has the advantage of maximizing total bass output and minimizing the required EQ but if you're not after the deepest possible bass from two subs, individually time aligning each sub with the center will almost be possible with the distance setting limits and a single EQ to their sum response will be good enough. PS Audyssey can only apply a single EQ to the sum of subs.
Hello OCA, First of all, thank you very much for the interesting series about REW. I've seen the 2 videos several times because I don't speak English well either. in all parts, including the last one on Audyssey, some things are quite identical in procedure. Still, there are question marks in my mind. Examples: - you recommend 1M measurements and use 128k because of the video. However, the attached files are also so short. I have now always measured with 512k. - then 0 - 24kHz is used once and then 0 - 20kHz again. Questions: 1. Usually vectoring is used, but then also rms averaging, when do I use what? 2. where do the Q factors for the Marantz come from? I use an old SR7005 and tried to determine these values and came up with the following values: 63Hz: 2.5 125Hz: 2 - 2.5 250Hz: 2 500Hz: 2 - 2.5 1kHz: 2.5 2kHz: 1.5 4kHz: 1.5 8kHz: 1.5 16kHz: 0.5 3. I would be interested in how I proceed before the actual measurements as in your videos? By that I mean the placement of the speakers specifically FL and FR. I have some leeway here. I have measured various positions but have not set the new distances. What is the best way to determine the best position in advance? Waterfall, Impulse ETC, frequency response? 4. Regarding the last video: the SR7005 has Audyssey XT and I don't have an app. Can I still include the dynamic EQ in the measurements? A little more text, hope it's ok. Maybe a pinned point-like procedure in one of the videos would be good so I don't have to watch the videos 5 times?! Best regards
A lot of questions :) 1M measurements will give better results in noisy electric or high room noise floor environments but they take too long to measure over and over. Measurements should always be 0-24000 for 48kHz sampoling rate but at the time I didn't have the DD+ Atmos encoded mp4 files so I had to use 20-20kHz. These files are not easy to produce. You cannot measure Atmos speakers with 512k beccause you don;t have the DD+ files for it. Now the questions: 1. RMS average for target level , vector average for XO. 2. Q factors given in the links were calculated by myself and optimized by John (the author of REW) for SR6015 and they work with most Marantz/Denon amps, I don't think they are different for SR7005 but I cannot be sure. You should be able to tell from your results. The GEQ are quite standard btw. 3. Put one of the speakers on a roller board without the spikes (so the total height is similar) and measure it with fdw:15 and pyshcoacoustic smoothing at different locations. Pick the location with the minimum distance between highest peak and lowest dip of the frequency response in the 20-20,000Hz area. Place the other speaker symmetrically on the opposit side. 4. Yes, you can apply everything in the method with XT. There's an index with chapter titles in every video? Tip:To advance frame by frame in CZcams, press the space bar to pause, then "." to go one frame forward and "," to go one frame back.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks very much! Yes index is present. What do you mean by XO? I set fdw:15 and pyshcoacoustic smoothing as default. That's how I did it all day today but without a roller board. Many positions and FL and FR always positioned the same and measured individually and together, now I don't feel like it anymore ;) However, I still had a problem with the impulse. All speakers on the AVR were connected the same way with plus and minus. Still had to swap polarity on 3 speakers so all tips pointed in the same direction. However, it still happens from time to time that the tip suddenly points in the other direction during a measurement. Do you know why?
That's because the mic is not in the exact middle of these two speakers and their high frequency phases are cancelling each other out. Move the mic to the central position.
What to do when my distance setting limit has been reached? I need to add 3 meters more delay to my subwoofer response, but my Marantz receiver won't let me do it because the distance apart my center/sub is too high :(
@@ocaudiophile yes. Everything is aligned, but the subwoofer is still 3,986 meters too late :( My setup consists of 4 subwoofers which i have aligned with MSO and a minidsp.. perhaps there is some sort of delay/latency that happens? Either way, the distance delta is maxed out in my receiver and there is no other way I can input "negative delay" for the subwoofers for them to arrive earlier in the impulse response :/ My closest speaker is 1.81m distance and my subwoofers is maxed out at 7.71 meters (and i need about 4 meters more for them to align).
@@BuffSquadBigBenni If you can't decrease the delays in MiniDSP and I know you can't, your only option is to adjust sub impulse timing not to the highest peak but the peak before that.
Question from a newb. At the end of the video after you’ve applied the filters that rew recommends why do you remeasure with rew to match the target SP that the eq recommends ? Couldn’t you just run pink noise through the speakers using rew and level match the speakers to 70db or whatever’s you choose to make sure there all playing at the same volume? I think I’m missing something. Can someone try to clear this up for me. Thanks!
Even if the pink noise is generated from REW itself with the signal generator and built in SPL meter? I thought it was only the receivers internal test tones that would ignore any EQ work done. My receiver is an A8a. It uses YPAIO. Don’t know if that makes a difference. I also forgot to add that I only used this method for my 7.1 channels. Not my atmos. Haven’t gotten there yet.
Rew will read what it hears from the mic. I am trying to say that, you will not be able to play the sweeps with the EQ filters engaged. What AVR are you using?
@@ocaudiophile Im using a Yamaha a8a. I was just thinking after EQing all the speakers I could just go to the signal generator and run the built in spl meter with the random pink noise and recheck the volume levels between the speakers instead of using the sweeps. Am I making any sense?
I understand that this isn’t possible with atmos channels. Another question I had was how you came about your target SPL. Was that just based off the first speakers calculated target level response or did it have something to do with your subwoofers target level. I wasn’t able to get any good measurements from my subs. No matter what I did it was always to quiet for REW or way to loud. Tried measuring in full range and up to 250 hz with -10 applied and it just didn’t seem right. Would be nice if Yamaha allowed you to adjust the lfe channel in the receiver.
I see you have measurement level at -12 dBFS. If I set my recover to reference volume 0. Then my sweeps are way too loud. Is it better to adjust the receiver volume down or the dBFS to -30 (or something like this). Does it matter which way I adjust ?
I am curious. Instead of turning the volume down on the LFE channel by -10 why not just run the sub sweep on the right or left main speaker channel with the speaker cables disconnected to whatever main speaker is being used?
I am able to access the Denon X4300h receiver settings page by adding my ip address/settings, but dont know how to access the main menu page - any suggestions pls
@@ocaudiophile Yep found this page too but it doesnt get me to that page which shows ' advanced settings' I simply get 'Page not found' when I type ip:10443 while strangely when I type ip/settings/ it takes me to the network page.
-25dB which is around 75dB in SPL reading! You can set your reciever volume directly from your browser with this command: 192.168.0.229:8080/goform/formiPhoneAppDirect.xml?MV55 with your receiver's correct IP in place.
@@avsolutions212 There's a "Check Level" button in the REW measurement window. You can use that just before running the sweep. Anything above 70dB for a single speaker is fine. Just make sure once set, you don't change the AVR volume until you complete all measurements.
@@avsolutions212 Yes and adjust the speaker's volume trim in the receiver if you need to. And after EQ you should recheck and readjust as EQ changes the volume level a bit.
I'm gonna do this on the weekend, just one question I have two subs. Is it better to do this for the sub, or the Optimal Subwoofer Alignemt with Cross Correlation video? Or a combination of both, which one should I do then first?
@@ocaudiophile They are both connected to the processor and have their own output (I can do all settings separate for each woofer and have a 6 band PEQ for each) (Its a Tonewinner AT300)
That's good because you cannot manually EQ subs in the SR6015 (I've the same). All you will need to set up in the receiver is their distances and volume levels. You can useoptimal subwoofer alignement video to decide the optimal timing (distance) difference between the subs and dial that in the MiniDSP. A MiniDSP will usually introduce extra delays to the system which can make it impossible to align the combined subwoofer impulse peak with the rest of the speakers. In that case, align the first impulse peak of the sub to time 0. It'll sound just as good.
You can follow the method in this video to align the subs between each other: czcams.com/video/ga2eOwJRtXo/video.html Once you align the subs with REW's "Alignment tool" for phase alignment, use REW's auto EQ feature to find the necessary filters for the "aligned sum". Apply these filters to your subs using thier own PEQ. Then you can follow the "Manual Tuning" method for the rest.
My two subs are already aligned with that tool and those delay values are in a minidsp controlling them. For time and volume alignment purposes with the rest of the speakers, they're just 1 sub. I showed that in another video.
THANK YOU for your effort! When I try to match subs and the other channels, i dont get the "regular" impulse response - It's only one long decreasing line, does not look like the impulse of the other speakers :/
It's peak could be far away, "Fit to Data" and "Plot Normalized" and it should show up. If you measure the sub from 0Hz to 250Hz (instead of 24,000Hz), it's impulse peak could be visualized better.
@@ocaudiophile Incredible fast response :D Will try that, seems logic, as i use different dsps chained to each other, it may 50ms or so. Thanks for the hint! Now the only issue is, that the avr cuts the last acoustic timing reference, so the measurement starts only with the first reference, runs through and lacks the "ending reference" I guess it's a signal detection issue.
@@ocaudiophile will try it! Strange, that this behaviour dont occur, when I use one of the dsps as sound source directly (instead of thr avr). Do you have a funding page, to support you?
Whats your rew version is it standard version or beta version? Why iam asking this question means for me equaliser editing option doesn't show so thats why iam asking
@@ocaudiophile please put me link here, and also i have small doubt you said harman curve 120hz and 80hz, is it need to change any crossover for mains or lfe bass ?
awesome tutorial. I have questions, how to applying eq for front as denon eq for both left and right front. Should I average spl L and R from the REW then EQ?
@@ocaudiophile i will check again later, maybe my fault. Another questions, my subwoofer located just behind the front speaker. Physical distance front and center are about the same, 2.9 meter and the subs around 3.2meter. The strange thing when I use rew for the sub impulse response, I cannot match with the center (as reference) cause the denon can go only 7.65m and the sub impulse res still 1.5m short according to rew meaaurement. And this without using any minidsp for the subs. Any idea what did i do wrong? Thanks.
That's normal, extra delays possibly caused by filters in the sub. You can align the first peak of the sub that's in the same direction with center speaker's highest peak.
@@ocaudiophile i see. The firsr impulse peak of the subs is the opposite peak of center speaker. So, I can just inverted the subs to get align with the center speaker. Is this correcf? Thank you. Another questions, what is the difference the sweep test from your file vs the sweep test using rew? Other than your file can do atmos and rew cannot.
@@1psxpat Don't invert subwoofer polarity, just align the next (or previous) peak of the sub which is in the same direction with the center speaker. REW (and Windows for that matter) cannot produce Atmos decoded sweeps thus you play them in Windows Media Player and REW listens to them and records them. These Atmos files are mp4 files created by a lot of effort in Amazon Web Services.
When playing the test sweeps from file. All the files either play through my right channel or left channel. They don't play in any other speaker. Is there something I am missing. I am playing the sweeps off a laptop.
@@ocaudiophile I'm using asio drivers for rew, and I disable them like you showed in the video. Do I somehow need to set asio drivers for playing other content other than Rew?
@@robotag95 Not really, WMP usually automatically plays these files thorugh Atmos channels even when Windows default player (the reciever) is set to stereo. Something must be off, keep checking!
No matter what I do I am unable to make the calibration sounds come out of the atmos speakers. I have followed exactly what you do in the video and it doesnt want to work at all. I have a denon 3700h amp
@@ocaudiophile I'm not sure how to force it into that mode but I have done it while it's in that mode. Multi ch in 7.1. but still nothing comes out the Atmos speakers and seems to come out one of the fronts
Hi OCA i think i got it for the first part. Only i had to set my sub distance to 8m to align with my center. After doing all speakers my marantz set mij distance automaticly back to 7.20 m and i cant change it because of incorrect speaker settings. any idea?
You can't enter a distance for the sub more than about 6m higher than other speakers. Try to align for the first impulse peak of the sub. That will also sound good.
Hey OCA! I’m struggling and could use some help. I have a Denon x3800H, 3 channel emotiva amp, 7.2.2 klipsch reference, and using a UMIK-1. Issues: 1. I am getting a periodic (40% of runs) drop on my front right channel. It’s between 1k and 2khz with amp, and directly to receiver it drops to around the 600hz mark. What could be the cause of that? I’m positive the wiring is good. I haven’t noticed this same problem on my other speakers yet, but I haven’t run 10+ checks on all of them. 2. All of my speakers give off a random pop around mid test during 20-20khz sound. Is that normal? 3. I will sometimes have loud crackling noise from REW when playing sample db testing and when running tests. However it never happens with your sweep files. 4. My sub EQ graph looks like a mountain, with a slight upward bump around 120hz. Is that an okay spot to pick for the reference DB level? Thanks in advance!
Crackling noise could be REW sample rate being different to the sample rate in the Windows audio properties default format setting. Also check ASIO, Umik and Denon dirver buffer sizes, increase if you need to. Lastly, Consider using Java EXCL drivers instead of ASIO. The measurement irregularities could all be stemming from that.
@@ocaudiophile Hey OCA, so I narrowed down the "drop" in my speakers to it ONLY occuring when I am doing the REW measurement (using microphone). When im not taking a measurement I can play the test tone 50 times with it never dropping, but once I hit measure it is a ~70% chance to drop. I am wondering if there are other effects from this because my measurements are rarely repeatable. Often differ by several inches and amplitude from eachother, even when I am listening and removing obvious dropped measurement test runs. Any insight into why this may be happening? I updated my NVIDIA HD Audio drivers today, but this glitch was happening yesterday as well.
Just wanted to follow up incase anyone else has this issue! Finally finished calibration! My solution was two use two separate computers. One for recording, and the other for playing the sounds. This completly solved my speaker crackling, drops, and inconsistent measurements I was having. THANK YOU OCA for your tutorials! You're the sound guru we all need!
@@ocaudiophile its the one right before this one "Dolby Atmos Height Channels Measurement & Calibration with REW" also which phone app did you use for measuring your speaker distance? i use android
@@_shogun_gaming_Both videos apply the same method. The mp4 Atmnos sweeps are also the same, just the lengths are different. The longer sweeps are always better in terms of resolution but will take more time of course. The complimentary video's main difference is it doesn't use the chirps for distance measurements as some users don't have chirps I used "measure" app which comes preloaded in Iphones with the IOS.
I have a strange problem. I was trying to time align my sub but I was getting a very large delay of around 22 milliseconds. This is outside the range of what speaker distance settings can compensate for. I am using a Denon 4700h and eventually tried adjusting the Audio/Bass Sync setting. The default was 0ms, I changed this to 16ms (the maximum) and my delay dropped to 6ms. Does this seem correct? It seems to me that this setting on the Denon is reversed? Thanks for these tutorials, they are superb.
Are you measuring your sub with a narrow frequency range like 20Hz-200Hz? That will make it easier to see and compare it's impulse peak. 22ms is about 7.5 meters which you should be able to dial in the receiver. The limit is something like 7.87m. This kind of delay /distance is normal if you're using a minidsp.
Yes, I'm using the narrow frequency range. The maximum difference between speakers that the Denon will allow me to set is 6 meters. My Atmos speakers are set to 3 meters so the maximum I can adjust the subwoofer to is 9 meters. The Bass Sync setting is per input on the Denon. I also am unsure if I adjust that to set the subwoofer distance how it would affect timing for bass that is redirected to the subwoofer by the crossover rather than directly by the LFE input.
I am using a mini dsp, so I actually removed it and hooked 1 sub only up directly. It's with the direct connection that I was getting 22ms. The sub is an Arendal. Arendal say the Subs onboard DSP adds 8ms. I also checked an older SVS sub and it was the same. I also used a PC and a laptop just to rule that out, if that's even possible to have an effect.
@@DanielCollins Marantz amps don't have that bass sync but from what I understand it acts on the LFE channel only so when you measure limited range that should be the one to adjust.
@@DanielCollins so even when you directly connect a sub and enter the highest possible delay /distance value, it's impulse peak is still on the right side of time 0?
![[繁中字幕] REW應用: 簡潔高效的DRC方法(最小相位反轉濾波器)](/img/n.gif)
Completed the calibration. It sounds perfect. Better result than I ever got with Audyssey. Highly recommended and well worth the effort. Thanks again for the tutorial👍
I am very happy to see you, You give answers of all comments. 😊Thanks
Absolutely awesome OCA. The results so far are amazing!! unreal. and I've not finished yet. Thanks so much for shearing your skills. Merry Xmas
You are so welcome!
This is commendable work. Thank you.
Cheers
thank you for your effort ,great content and i agree that Dynamic Eq is not prefect and manual is a grate think but there is one think with Dynamic EQ that in REW i couldn't do is sound stage is more pronounced with Dynaimc EQ on
Because it's increasing the volume of surrounds and heights more than the others.
Under rated for free Video. Other famous youtuber are releasing paid CD for similar steps 🤮
Well, my video subjects are too specialized to be very popular but the right people eventually find them.
This is really good! Thank you!
Wathing this on slow motion, so I wont miss any details. 🤓
🤣
How do you get to play the .mp4 files through the height speakers - for example when I try playing the TFR, the sound plays through my right speaker, not the height channel...any inputs please. I have a 5.2.4 setup using Denon x4300h AVR.
You shoukd disconnect REW from the amp from ASIO controls and select your amp as default player in Windows. Then WMP should play these files from the correct channel.
@@ocaudiophile On mac dont have option to use ASIO. Have been using the amp as default player for the floor speakers as well .
@@sammywonks404 Do you have Java Exclusive drivers on Mac?
@@ocaudiophile I am not sure, tried googling around but couldnt find any relevant info
Funny I also have 6015 avr and focal dome subs x2 with 7 sat, but using ADS fronts with monoblocks.
😂
After Struggling for a few days, I finally made the file atmos measurements. I was getting low volume measurements (-16DB) after checking all my PC sound settings, and then noticed that once my Marantz SR6014 receiver flipped into Atmos mode, a new Surround parameter showed up called Loudness Compensation and it was flipped to On, I switched it off and the the measurements came through at the correct level. Also, in Atmos mode the Graphic EQ item switched to Front Speaker. Hopefully this means that you can't adjust the EQ while in Atmos and not that EQ isn't used in the Atmos mode.
GEQ shows up the channels which it can detect in the signal coming to HDMI. You need to play any one of the supplied .mp4 sweeps (just a few seconds) with Windows Media Player to bring them all up.
Thank you.
I use a Yamaha 3080 Receiver. There is no LFE Option (-10db to 0). What do i have to do? Could you make a Video for Yamaha also? Thanks.
I will try
I was calibrating my subwoofers and they needed to be +30 feet over the center channel reference. Marantz only allows for a maximum of 20 feet delta between the lowest and the highest distance settings. Do you know of any way to get around this or is this distance not even reasonable?
Are you using a minidsp? That's known to cause extra delays (thus distance) due to processing inside. You can try switching the phase of the subwoofer. Almost all of them have a phase switch button.
I am having issues with Level Low when checking levels. In the Sound settings, I have Marantz output volume set at 60% and UMIK-1 input volume set at 60%. This results in decible reading of 74 db (level low) at 20-250 Hz (this db reading confirmed with decible meter) and reading of 49 db (level low) at 20-22k Hz. I also have the subwoofers volume turned way down - what should they be set at?. How do I bring up the readings to Level OK level? Does low level affect the results?
It's not optimal if REW reports that level is low. It means it's having difficulty stripping signal from the background noise. You should ask that in AVNirvana REW forums. John will have the accurate answer to your question. Try using ASIO drivers if you are on Java. Also check Windows sound settings for all levels. Something must be dimmed down somewhere.
is it possible for you to provide the harmon target curve?
drive.google.com/file/d/1kfTm89YaYik7kNujyY3bM_LU9UXJzjsO/view?usp=sharing
I'm on the latest revision of REW and configurable PEQ isn't listed as an option in Equalizer or Equalizer preferences.
I was using an early access version but it will be the released version very soon.
@@ocaudiophile thanks I wondered where it was.
I thought I saw in one of your videos where you took multiple measurement locations for a certain speaker and then averaged these together and applied eq. Do you use vector or rms averaging for the multiple measurements and then apply eq to that average? Could you refer me to which video this subject was discussed? Thanks.
It's in the very recent "Supreme Digital Room Correction" video. The measurements there are very close to each other: center, left ear and right ear so a vector average is advised. More importantly , you should take more than one measurement at each point for each speaker and eliminate ones with odd phase graps before averaging. Frequently, there'll be odd ones. After that, vector averaging will work just fine. Use RMS averaging when determining a common target curve for left and right speakers together (after applying FDW:15 to each speaker).
Dear OCA, you are a god send angel with the fabulous skill with art of teaching. With your help I am getting bit of clarity on REW. I am not able to set the speaker distanc ebelow 2.65m on my x6500. I sthere any work around for that?
You should be able to go as low as 0.04m in distance settings. Try resetting all the distances or master resetting the Receiver if the issue continues.
Hey First of all thanks for this guide. My AVR ist quite old (Denon x3500h) and it seems that there is no "Low Frequency Effects" option available. Is there a workaround or should I just deduct the 10db boost from the actual measurement?
You'll need to check if there's SPL difference between 20-200Hz and 20-20,000Hz measurements of the sub and compensate for it with Measurement Actions / SPL offset if any.
Some more notes on my experience. A Mac cannot be used for this process because it can only output 8 channel PCM, not bitstream, plus the LR channels have an inexplicable 20 ms delay when the proper distance is entered into the AVR. The pc does not exhibit this delay. My marantz sr6014 has hidden menus that are only available depending on sound mode, web menus or tv menus. I was tripped up yesterday by the hidden loudness setting that only shows up when Atmos is on and today I have to remeasure everything because I had to change the speaker impedance from 8 ohms to 4 because my LR are 6 ohm and my front heights are 4 ohm. You can only access this setting from the front panel of the AVR with a series of button presses. Anyway, it helps to read the manual 5 times, as almost every setting has multiple footnotes and exceptions.
I will ask around in the forums because I am sure some Mac users achieved to play thes efiles. I will let you know. I didn't know you can change impedance in these AVRs (I have 6015). I will try that.
Unconfirmed but general consensus is that these sweeps will play in Mac if you have Logic Pro.
Interesting about Logic Pro. I wonder if it will fix the lr delay too. I’ll see if I can get a demo.
I don't have any idea how to use Logic Pro so what I'm going to try to do is amp assign the dolby speakers to surround back, use Audio Midi setup to select a 7.1 rear surround set up, and then use the regular REW workflow. I only have a 5.1.2 setup so it may not be workable for those with more speakers.
My front right speaker seemingly shifts polarity after EQ which then messes up vector averaging. I know that my room isn't ideal but is there anything I can do to overcome that?
Is this at the stage where you vector average FL & FR to find the crossover frequency?
Yes! The two frequency response curves look similar but when I check the impulse graphs the highest peak flips from where it was previously. This speaker does have more correction than the others as a result of being almost in a corner which is unavoidable.
@@zaidmullins2642 The drop in VA is related to the large phase difference between left and right and is quite normal given asymmetric placement. You should still crossover them with where the vector average intersects withbthe sub but if the level seems too absurd try taking RMS Average of FL and FR instead and use that.
So if I got it right at the end you mention different crossover points for the bed layer speakers. Is that correct? Shouldnt the crossovers of all bed layer speakers be 80hz if you hace adequate speakers? At least the front LCR?
Amazing videos by the way. Just what i was looking for and super helpful
Thanks for your nice thoughts.
I wouldn't suggest that since you will need to phase (time) align 4 different woofers in the room at four different locations or else they will almost always either cancel or multiply each other at certain frequencies causing bass peaks and dips. If you align for that, then this will have to be different than the required time alignment for these speakers to fire at the right time to reach the LP. So you can have good bass but no coherence between speakers in your bed layer. I suggest investing in a powerful subwoofer(s) and leave the bass management to that. Also it's not easy to phase align 4 woofers correctly. You'll need something like MSO.
Have you seen the new rew update, it has a section to upload a file when doing equalizer. Can we upload yours directly there?
yes
I have watched the video a couple of times. I have a Marantz AV7703 and was trying to access the web interface like in your video. I put in the IP address and it says access forbidden. How else can I change the receiver settings? The manual setup on the receiver front panel does not have the option to change most of these settings you change in the video.
Unfortunately I've never used a pre-amp/processor before and may be their menus are different. Regarding the web interface, did you check if DHCP is set to ON in network settings? It could be related to your router settings or maybe if HEOS is ON, it might be blocking web interface.
I was able to access the speaker settings via the Marantz remote control app (from original comment). I started to check each speaker with pink noise. I have audio from computer hdmi going into Marantz front panel AUX 1. There are 5 soundfields to select: 1. Multi Channel Stereo Virtual (all speakers), 2. Virtual Stereo (FR,FL,Sub Only), 3. Stereo Dolby Surround (FR,FL,Sub Only), 4. Dolby Surround DTS Neural X (all speakers), 5. DTS Neural X Multichannel Stereo (all speakers). Pink noise plays in all speakers simultaneously for modes 2,3. For modes 4,5 noise plays through correct speakers for channels 1,2,3 with remaining channels playing through center speaker. For mode1, all left side speakers play for channel 1, all right side speakers for channel 2, all speakers for channels 3-8. Should I not use the front panel and use an input on the back panel? What did you use on your Marantz for the video?
@@steveaidt6138 The speaker output should be independent of the receiver sound mode settings. Check your ASIO4ALl settings in REW. Are you seeing all 8 channels? If so then it should be your Windows Media Player sending only stereo channels. Check if Marantz is the default player in Windows sound settings. Problem is on the PC side.
I got the speakers in REW to work correctly. The spatial settings on the computer were not working so found a command on the web that allowed all speakers to show up. Once I started doing measurements, when the tone can be heard, there is also a crackly static plays along with the tone. Have you ever experienced this? Not sure if it is affecting the measurement results.
@@steveaidt6138 Speaker crackling is almost always caused by a connection problem. Someplace between your amplifier and your speaker driver, there’s a bad wire which is causing the driver to move abruptly, causing interference. You should not be needing a Web command to trigger atmos speakers, the mp4 files I've supplied already have the correct speaker direction info in them. Try using Flexasio instead of Asio4All or try using Java Exclusive drivers and see if the problem persists.
In setting up REW 6.50 minutes in to this video my screen has 30 options for default equalizer.
Can you please advise how I bring up the screen you show giving the option under "Model" where you can load the configurable PEQ file
And do I actually need to load this file to correctly complete this process ?
I have a miniDSP 10x10 in my system and noted that it is included under default equalizer options
İt's under "Generic" and then second option is Generic PEQ and the filter I supply in the link gives the automation defaults like 0.5dB steps, etc but you can also create it yourself but with a Minidsp 10x10 you can do much better of course.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks for the quick reply. Just to confirm, I can load the results directly in to the miniDSP but I need to use Generic to create the filters ?
Under Preferences (I am running REW V5.20.13 in Windows 10) in the Equaliser Tab there are 30 default options starting with TMREQ and ending with Generic. I do see under default Equaliser "Manufacturer" Generic and Model where your file is loaded 7.30 minute's into the video
@@neilpage1185 What's your speaker configuration? Minidsp 10x10 can do 7.1 at best and that's not enough for height channels if you have 7.1.4 system for example.
@@ocaudiophile I running 7.2 MiniDSp 2x4 Hd for subs as single mono and 7 channels in to the 10x10 minidsp
Ok then you should select minidsp in REW EQ and auto generate biquad filters. Save them and upload to minidsp. You have nothing to do with generic.
I see now you have changed the target curve from 500/10hz to 200/20hz. There is a specific reason? Ty 🙏
They are the same curves as long as you keep "LF rise" & "HF Fall" the same and 10Hz-20Hz doesn't matter as none of the speakers tested can go that low.
@@ocaudiophile I compared the 2 curves for purpose learning and are identical :) I can now compare things thank's to your tutorial, I'm using rew more easily 🙌💪
Just curious if you could show how to use this set up and also incorporate the minidsp for handling the subwoofer
Noted for the next video launch!
I am playing the 256k sweep files. REW set up just like on video to play sweep files. LF, LR, and C channels will play on correct speaker. Files for SL, SR, SBL, SBR, TFL, TFR, TRL, TRR will only play on the Back Surround speakers (L/R). Do you know why the files will not play on the correct speakers? This is on Marantz AV7703 which has the same functionality/setup essentially as your Marantz 6015. My system is set up as 11.1.4.
If I remember correctly, someone else with the same gear had the same problem but eventually solved it. I will check past comments. It could be under another video (the first one about the same subject). Please also check for yourself. I think you need to switch to some sound mode on the pre-amp but I am really not sure, never had a pre-amp.
@@ocaudiophile I could never get my setup to read the Atmos sweep files using Windows Media Player. I installed the VLC player and was able to set to Bitstream to read the sweep files on the correct speakers.
@@steveaidt6138 I use VLC in my PC but I didn't want to add another software to the equation as WMP also played them just fine.
@@steveaidt6138 where do you see this option to bit stream? Or what did you change in the options in vlc to make it happen?
Great video OCD. I'm using an REW Mac version 5.20.13 but I can't see a configurable PEQ in the filter preferences, just a list of manufacturers and generic. Any ideas how to resolve?
It's under generic but you may need an early access version of REW
Nice, but can you do a video for that , using the audyssey PC App? Would be great to have such a good manual for the Multi EQ X Windows App, that should be able to push the sound on a even higher level
I don't have the MultEQ-X app and the trial version didn't show much of what's inside. Frankly, I don't think I will ever need it but if I do, I will certainly launch a video on it.
Hey, thankyou For Guide, I have One Question When ever I try To play atmos sweep files, sound alwas comes from l or right speaker only
Put the receiver in Movie/Stereo mode
Hello OCA,
Your videos are gold ! A quick question though. In your previous video, you add frequency dependent window before EQ, but you didn't this time, why is that?
FDW is a way of windowing the response to avoid correcting for reflections in the high frequencies. There are other ways, too. And most target curves are designed for no FDW responses.
How do you have the zone distance ? when I try to mesure distance between impulse with shift key, REW told me that "Metrics are not available for this graph"
Keyboard CTRL key + mouse right click
Dear OCA, thanks for this tutorial. Questions on Subwoofer calibration,
1. Using center channel as acoustic time reference, I tried to get impulse response for Subwoofer. According to REW, the distance between center peak impulse and Subwoofer peak comes out at 9 metre... I have tried to reverse Polarity on the Subwoofer, but no luck. What am I doing wrong?
2. Peak impulse of center channel points down. However peak impulse of subwoofer points upwards (regardless of position or negative) polarity. What causes it and how to fix this?
Thanks a lot in advance.
9m is a bit too much. Are you using a Minidsp or internal DSP of the subs? They can both cause extra delays. But it's not a big deal, you can align the sub's first impulse peak (not the highest peak) to the centre channel instead. Distance will be shorter and doable in the receiver settings.
Impulse peak direction of the sub might be changing from measurement to measurement due to the crossovers in the sub and/or the receiever. Again not a big deal, it can be in opposite direction with the speakers. Compare its phase response with the speakers (in Overlays/phase) and pick the polarity that has the best phase harmony.
OCA, Thank you so much for putting the time to make all these videos. I'm learning so much by just watching your tutorials. When playing the Atmos sweeps with Windows Media Player, my levels are really low. Is there another setting I should be looking for? All the bed layers played fine with no warnings from REW, only when playing the atmos sweeps do I get the level too low warning from REW.
Either your reciever's loudness management (or whatever the name it has in your model) setting is left "on" - just turn it off or you've one of those models which dim atmos channels depending on their dialnorm settings for which there's no cure other than increasing the volume while measuring them. There's a list of Denon/Marantz models which are effected by this but I couldn't find the link now.
@@ocaudiophile okay thank you for the reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I'll research to see if my model den on is the one that is affected by
I found the link:
www.avsforum.com/threads/defeating-dialnorm.3253654/#post-61958511
Another question, if I may? Do we still have to do several measurements for each speaker like three mic positions? And then cross correlate, time align, and then optimize gains? Is that correct?
Yes, multiple measurements are benefical unless you're the only one ever listening to your system.
Hi OCA! I followed your excellent videos, but I'm having some issues with my adjusting the timing of my subwoofer. The 100% impulse are very late and I'm not sure if it's a phase problem. I'm unable to delay the sub further. Any chance I can share my REW results somehow for you to see?
In that case, align for the first impulse peak of the sub rather than the highest peak.
Are we still making multiple measurements and cross correlating for each channel and vector averaging the channel mesaurments for EQ?
You can of course especially if you're equalising for a large area but single central point will be good enough for most purposes and will be impressive enough if you follow the procedure correctly.
Good evening, the time alignment of the speakers, is it done with the crossover on the denon on full band or in small(bass management on)? does it depend on how we use the speakers to listen? Thank you
There'll be very small time delays caused by crossovers versus full range measurements. It's best to remeasure and check speaker distances at the end of the calibration.
Thank you; great video! i wanted to try it, but the sweeps from the top-Speakers are only played by the correspondent floor-speaker, so for example: TFL is played by FL, etc..!? Any advice?
I need some more info...Are you using ASIO drivers, Windows Media Player?
@@ocaudiophile Sorry🙂; Yes i'm using ASIO drivers (ASIO4ALL v2), Windows 10 Lenovo Notebook and i tried VLC and Windows Media Player, it's a 5.1.4 system which is configured to Auro3D and the AVR is Denon AVC-X4700H (and i'm also measuring funny values for the SW (15.8m) like Daniel Collins)! As a beginner i tried to do everything as you explained! It's a great help for me, because my idea is to hear the difference from manual calibration and Audyssey-Calibration.
@@didi_p7756 There's the first video on this subject where you can find more details on activating dolby channels.If you already watched it and still cannot get top sepakers, it could be related to Auro which is not likely but since I don't have it or ever used it, it's a possibility. FYI VLC needs to be configured dirst but WMP works with defualt settings. Make sure your reciever is selected as default playert also in Windows Sound settings. For subwoofer distance, I need more info. Are you using a Minidsp? DId you reset all distances to 3.00m initially while measureing speakers?
@@ocaudiophile Thank you for your tips! I think you are right that it is related to Auro. For some reason the AVR is switching into 'Auro 3D' sound mode when i send one the files for the Heights-Speakers; i changed the sound mode into 'PURE/Direct' and then it works!? I will try a little bit more tomorrow and see if i can come to a result. Concerning the subwoofer, i don't use a miniDSP and i reset all the distances as you discribed; but in the Overlay/Levels-Tab i'm always measuring about 7,80m!? Maybe it's because my speakers are low-budget-ones and not so good!
@@didi_p7756 Measure the sub for 25-120Hz range and check the impulse peak distance to the impulse peaks of other aligned speakers. It will almost never be the expected distance of the sub to the LP but still 7-8 metres without extra processing like Minidsp inbetween doesn't look normal.
How did you find the initial distance for the center channel? Did you do a center channel sweep with the acoustic ref of the center channel too? Because when i did that i didn’t get a distance in the rew description. All it says is a delay.
You have to assign an approximate measured value to center channel distance.
How did you get it though, by physically measuring the distance with a measuring tape or running an acoustic ref sweep with the center
@kringle924 İ can confirm that both ways in my system
Curious if you ever tried the ‘moving mic’ method for taking measurements or are you of the view one (stationary) measurement position at the MLP is sufficient?
Multiple measurements have advantages compared to single point but moving mic measurements will lose phase data which is not ideal for optimal correction. However, it could yield good results with Marantz Denon line receivers as the correction options are limited to a graphic equaliser.
@@ocaudiophile Makes sense! let me tell you something…….you are an EQ ‘animal!’. I doubt there is anyone more knowledgeable in this area (at least in respect to Marantz/Denon users such as us). THANKS AGAIN!
Oh, forgot to ask. In respect to taking multiple measurements (for each speaker) at the MLP what form of averaging do you recommend (e.g. vector averaging or rms averaging or another form of averaging)?
@@ts6640 RMS averaging after you time align every measurement for that speaker to MLP by cross correlation
Hi, great channel. I have two questions: the first is why should the subwoofer be aligned with the center channel and not with a front left or right speaker? the second question is: how do you know that the center used as an acoustic reference is three meters from the listening point? did you measure it with a tape measure from the speaker to the mic? Thanks so much
Thanks! You're free to choose any speaker as the acoustic reference and as long as you keep the same speaker as reference while measuring others, they will all be time aligned relative to this speaker. I chose center because I could manually measure its distance to the LP. I used iPhone "measure" app for that. It doesn't need to be very accurate, but other speakers including the sub should be perefectly aligned relative to that speaker for best Atmos experience. If the acoustic reference speaker distance is manually measured longer than it really is for example, you will only have a slightly larger sound bubble but sound will still move accurately along the speakers.
What is the master volume on your AVR should be set during all this measurement ? At zero level ?
Ideally, you should set it to the level you frequently listen to your system.
When I did the measurement, the impulse graph doesn’t get to -100 on the graph, what might be the problem ?
@@simonsung4903check IR window left window size of the measurement
can you please explain more on how you get that smoothing impulse response ? like the blue one .. is there some plot window settings you apply ? im struggling to get the exact plot like yours
THX 🙏
asio4all even on my laptop and pc with nvidia gfx seems to have big crackling and bad quality sound issues.. i will try AsioFlex or stay with Wasapi
Java EXCLusive Wasapi drivers are just as good...Apply FDW first for smoothing.
@@ocaudiophile thx Sir
Hey OCA; what's about the subwoofer when you measure the speakers; on or off?
You can keep them on, when speaker is set to "large", subs will not produce any sound.
Hi OCA - Thanks again for answering my earlier question. A user asked what would be the better way to follow your videos and you suggested that starting with the subs could be a good idea. In this video, after applying EQ to the center channel, the target SPL dropped around 31 mins. You mentioned to boost it to get to the target of 65.9 which was the target spl from your sub. Is this still correct to do?
Again thank you!!!
Yes, and as long as you adjust all speakers to the same level, it doesn't make a difference. Just remember that Audyssey cannot apply more than a total of 20dB to any channel i.e. if a filter has -16dB gain and you additionally drop the SPL of that speaker -5dB, Audyssey will not be able to apply both of them (16+5=21) and cap the total drop to -20dB.
Got it. Thank you!@@ocaudiophile
@ocaudiophile I just wanted to drop by again and say thank you!
After reviewing almost all of your reviews over and over.
I finished calibrating my 7.2.4 system and boy the difference is day and night. My 2 SVS PB 2000 were already thunderous but not the way it blends with the other speakers has transferred my everything. The atmos is something else right. Watching a quiet place felt like I was watching for the first time! The atmos was just amazing!.
Thanks again OCA
@cymonophori9998 Your welcome, enjoy!
Why i don't have the distance tool to measure distance between impulses in my REW?. Why don't I have PEQ option in Eq In my REW? Are those functions limited to Apple based REW?
I am using a Windows based REW in the videos. To measure distance you press keyboard CTRL key and mouse right click and move your mouse. For PEQ you need an early access REW version which I must have given a link for in the decsription section but here you go:
www.avnirvana.com/threads/v5-20-14-early-access-build.11154/
@@ocaudiophile ohh. Many thanks sir
Is the mic-alignment unecessary, if i am not sitting in the middle?
No, it only works if you need to centre the mic between front left and right speakers. Just keep the mic at exactly where you are sitting.
How do you optimize for multiple listening points? Just take multiple measurements, average, and continue as normal?
You have to align them to the central measurement with "cross corr align" before vector averaging.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks!
Hello, what should I do, can you please help me? There is no option to choose an Equaliser model in REW. I can only choose Generic equaliser, and there are no EQ Filters shown. What should I do?
Google REW early access version
@@ocaudiophile Thank you very much for your answer. This is the most comprehensive and detailed REW Home Theater tutorial I've seen. And I believe the only one providing the separate ATMOS level sweeps. Thanks.
@@crazydwarfer Thanks. Yes, it's the only one with Atmos sweeps if you don't count my other videos on Audyssey.
Excellent videos. I’m just starting out with rew and got stuck at the impulse response part. Nothing’s happening when I click and drag in the overlay window. So I’m not able to measure the delay. Any idea what it could be?
Keyboard CTRL + right mouse click then drag the mouse without releasing CTRL
@@ocaudiophile Thank you! Got it. It's ctrl+ left click, then right click and drag.
very helpful video. Same steps work for Mac OS?
Macs have problems playing the Atmos sweeps as they don't use HDMI bypass DD+. Watch this video for Mac calibration:
czcams.com/video/LwORN-tSPjk/video.html
I just learned from Hannu Kalkaja that the new Marantz Cinema 50 series also have the same speaker distance accuracy :(
True. And the reason why I bought this receiver is that it has 4 individual sub outs. Unfortunatelly those can't be EQ'd independently, so only one global EQ is applied. Levels and distances can be set individually. I have been using MiniDSP and MSO before and I was hoping that Marantz could do close the same. It can't, but with 4 subs I can get it pretty good anyways.
@@hannu.kalkaja Did you watch my sub alignment video?
czcams.com/video/ga2eOwJRtXo/video.html
@@ocaudiophile Yes. It might help. I haven't tried yet. MSO is pretty good on giving aling and gain values. Then eq on REW is best so far for me.
Good morning OCA.
I have one question. I have followed your method and fine tuned my 4 Atmos speakers. TFL/TFR/TRL/TRR. When I input the EQ after room/target curve in the receivers no matter How the system won't show TFL EQ channel it's always jump to FTR . I have reset my Marantz 7010.. but can't get to that particular Atmos channel. Could you please quide. Tq
You need to feed the receiver with an Atmos signal for these equalizer settings to show up. Just start playing any Atmos sweep and they will show up and stay there for a bit even after the signal is stopped.
Hi . OCA.. yes actually it's triggered all 4 channels but when I tried to Enter the gain in the TFL speakers the Marantz amp skip to TFR ..
@@kalaimani7354 I have never experienced that. They come and go altogether in mine. Maybe try using the web intetface? It's easier to enter all these values there anyway.
Hi... OCA.. actually I am using the web interface.. both are not working.. same issues... Maybe I need to reboot to factory settings again..
How do you flip the wave direction for subs when using coaxial cable just like you suggested swapping +ve and -ve leads in case of speakers
You can use the phase shift switch of the sub
@@ocaudiophile I have miniDSP setup connected to my two subs. I tried changing the phase from zero to 90 and 180 - the peaks only moved further away from the center and yet couldnt get to flip the wave. also the max sub distance in Denon is 25.5ft and still the peak was way away from zero.
@@sammywonks404 It's the delay MiniDSP is introducing to the line which causes large distance offsets. You can align the first impulse peak of the sub (not the highest peak) to time 0 instead. This will also produce good results and the direction problem will be fixed.
I downloaded your files, but the surround files are playing through my front channel. I don't have ASIO4ALL. Is that required in order for the files to play to the proper speaker. I've time aligned everything using REW sweeps for C,L,R,SL,SR... in REW the SBL and SBR won't play.
The work-around I might do, but wanted to ask first is to connect each of my other speakers to a known channel and find distance and eq from there and carry settings over to the proper channel. Then leave the known channel for last. Thoughts?
Update: I got asio4all to work. I didn’t realize there wouldn’t be a shortcut to the control panel of the app. It’s only accessible after selecting it in REW. I will try the surround speakers again tomorrow.
Yes, you need to use either ASIO or Java Wasapi Exclusive drivers to access surround channels.
I used to apply the workaround you've come up with for Atmos channels in the past. You can get their response correctly but it becomes very hard to get the right timings. You have to compensate for the distance of the speaker output you're using for the particular channel, etc. Far easier and cleaner to do with the played sweeps.
Ok. I watched your longer video on this. In that video we disable asio4all to give windows full control when playing your sweep files. That didn’t didn’t solve the named file playing to the correct speaker. In sound settings in windows I had to turn of Dolby atmos and set the format for Marantz to be “24 bit, 48000 Hz (Studio Quality)”. I also turned off spatial audio. Once I did this, the files played to the correct speaker.
Hi OCA, I am a little confused. I just been back over my impulse response's and I think I am reading them incorrectly, Pitty I cant send you a screen capture or the File
I understand that the impulse response should be read at the highest peak and they should all be the same either pointing up or down
My center speaker response's fist peak is on zero (SPL is +90) but its not the highest peak the second peak is higher (SPL is -100 pointing down and late)
I,ve tried increasing the distance in the Emotiva XMC 2 but it will not shift
So at this point I can not move forward until I know where the problem might be
I have measured all 7.1 speakers but haven't aligned them yet pending the issue with the center speaker.
I also note that they are all pointing down at -100 SPL and they are all at the second impulse peak. The first impulse like the center vary between SPL+75 to +90
Thanks in advance
Neil
Further to the above, The Mic is dead center
As a possible work around should I move all the other speakers to match the center ?
The center speakers second peak is 0.012m positive to zero
And all the other speakers are negative/ behind the center
If you have selected the Center speaker as acoustic timing reference then its peak will always be at 0 regardless of what distance setting you use in the receiver for it. As per the second peak, it means that there's a large reflection near the center speaker. 100% SPL means, you're plotting Impulse peak normalized, you can untick that option from the settings in the upper right corner.
Awesome video. Thanks so much! Quick question: I’m running a Yamaha RX-A8A. At the 9 min mark you talk about deceasing LFE within the surround parameter. I’ve hunted through all my menu options on the amp and can’t see anywhere to make this type of adjustment. Do you have any suggestions as to how I might deal with it otherwise? Thanks
Download the latest early access version of REW. There's a new LFE -10dB measurement option.
@@ocaudiophile two other question if I can… at around 17min you go into EQ to calculate your target shape, but you use the full range sub measurement rather than the measurement just using LFE range. Why is that? Or would they give the same target (but not the same timing?
In your earlier video you were taking multiple speaker measurements post time alignment and then cross correlating + vectoring to get a better response for multiple listening distances. Is it worth doing that for the subwoofer as well? Thanks
When you measure only low frequencies, the receiver will boost the signal by 10dB thinking it's a special signal for the LFE channel. If you dimmed LFE volume by -10dB in the receiver, this is also ok. If you send full range signal, receiver will not boost the sound and keep it the same as other speakers regardless of the LFE volume setting in the receiver.
Low frequency response wouldn't be different at different locations so unless your measurement positions are quite far away from each other, you don't really need to do that. But if you're measuring LF response for a home cinmea with 6 seats, you would benefit from cross corr align and vector averaging.
I know others have said it too but your videos are unbelievably helpful (especially for a beginner like me trying to maximise everything out of their system). Thank you so much for producing such amazing content I haven’t seen anything anywhere as good and comprehensive. The fact you are willing to also help people out by answering all their questions is just awesome!! Thank you!!
Very nice video!! i am new to all this and still learning. When checking the subwoofer level it will play way to loud if im at my lisening volume. Would i adjust my volume of the receiver untill it hits the 75 db in rew or should i turn my receiver to lisening volume and adjust the subwoofer on the back?? Most other videos recommend to have your receiver at 0db while measuring speakers and subwoofer. Sorry for my engllish i am from the Netherlands. Thank you in advanced!!!
Always measure your speakers at the volume you watch your movies. The subwoofer level relative to other speakers can be seen in REW/All SPL tab graphs after you measure every speaker and subwoofer from 0 to 24,000Hz. You can adjust the individual volumes from the receiever menu (+- 10dB) but if the subwoofer volume is outside this range, you should change it first from the subwoofer's own volume knob.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks for your fast respons. I did what you said and i got it to 75 db at listining level. I just cant get the target sub right. I dont know what i am doing wrong. All the other staps in the video are going well bud since i dont have the right sub target curve to start with it doesn't make sense i guess. I will keep trying
İf you get stuck, share your measurements and I'll have a look when I can. You can only post google drive links here.
Thanks for all the help!
Hey mate please help me . I have few questions.
1) Lets say if i keep the LFE effects at -12db & eq'ed or time aligned with speakers at 75db ( here you did at around 65) . After volume aligning everything at 75 if i change the LFE effecta from -12db to 0db will that increase my subwoofer over all spl level ( lets say from 75db to 80db or so ) ?
2) if i follow your other video where you EQ'ed the subwoofers & time aligned the subwoofers b/w each other . In that case how can i time align align the subwoofers with center channel , where all my other speskers are time aligned to the center channel. I tried to time align the subs after time aligning the subs b/w esch other but if i look at the impulse response & try to time align them with center channel then the distance is huge where my denon doesn't go to that extent.
What should i do in this case. Should i just time align both subs b/w each other ? Or is there any other way to align the subs with center channel..
I can only do one. Aligning both subs to center channel or aligning both subs to each other rather than center channel. I cant avoid the time alignment b/w the subwoofers because i am EQ'ng the subs using your method & entering the PEQ to the bulit in dsp of the subwoofers.
1) LFE volume only effects special effect *.1 channel in the surround mix. The channel is boosted by 10dB by Dolby standards and -12dB will only remove this extra boost. It will not change the general subwoofer volume level crossed over with speakers. My Marantz LFE volume setting is limited to -10dB btw, only speaker volume level settings go down to -12. Make sure you're not changing the wrong adjustment.
2) If you cannot time align the combined subwoofer impulse highest peak with the center speaker, try to align an earlier impulse peak. This is not optimal but will still sound better than Audyssey's own adjustments. If you are using MiniDSP to EQ subs, that will also introduce extra delays and speaker distance setup will not be enough to align peaks properly. I ended up removing MiniDSP and the second sub altogether for the perfect sub time alignment.
In your specific case, you could try plugging both subs directly to the Denon, time aligning them separately with the center channel, apply an initial PEQ to both and finally apply a correction to their sum output with the method in the tutorial.
@@ocaudiophile hi mate , thanks for the quick reply.
I also have MULTEQ-X software for another room setup with subwoofer which didn't have any built-in PEQ's. I think I can directly connect both subs to the denon & time align them with the center channel , later I'll follow your video tutorial where after aligning the subs to the center channel , I'll align both subs b/w themselves & I'll generate PEQ'S . These PEQ I'll enter in the Audyssey PC app
For the 1st room setup I'll follow whatever you said above.
I've one more doubt . In the first room setup i think I can time align both subs combined ( average of both sub at MLP ) to the center channel & then i can follow your optimal subwoofer calibration tutorial. I can individually align subs with the center channel & again time align b/w the subs.. this will go beyond denon sub distance.
***** I can't individually align subs with the center channel & again time align b/w the subs.. this will go beyond denon sub distance. ****
Small correction to the previous reply
@@Robin-rq1jo Phase aligning two subs between each other has the advantage of maximizing total bass output and minimizing the required EQ but if you're not after the deepest possible bass from two subs, individually time aligning each sub with the center will almost be possible with the distance setting limits and a single EQ to their sum response will be good enough. PS Audyssey can only apply a single EQ to the sum of subs.
Hello OCA,
First of all, thank you very much for the interesting series about REW.
I've seen the 2 videos several times because I don't speak English well either.
in all parts, including the last one on Audyssey, some things are quite identical in procedure. Still, there are question marks in my mind.
Examples:
- you recommend 1M measurements and use 128k because of the video. However, the attached files are also so short.
I have now always measured with 512k.
- then 0 - 24kHz is used once and then 0 - 20kHz again.
Questions:
1. Usually vectoring is used, but then also rms averaging, when do I use what?
2. where do the Q factors for the Marantz come from?
I use an old SR7005 and tried to determine these values and came up with the following values:
63Hz: 2.5
125Hz: 2 - 2.5
250Hz: 2
500Hz: 2 - 2.5
1kHz: 2.5
2kHz: 1.5
4kHz: 1.5
8kHz: 1.5
16kHz: 0.5
3. I would be interested in how I proceed before the actual measurements as in your videos?
By that I mean the placement of the speakers specifically FL and FR. I have some leeway here.
I have measured various positions but have not set the new distances.
What is the best way to determine the best position in advance? Waterfall, Impulse ETC, frequency response?
4. Regarding the last video: the SR7005 has Audyssey XT and I don't have an app. Can I still include the dynamic EQ in the measurements?
A little more text, hope it's ok.
Maybe a pinned point-like procedure in one of the videos would be good so I don't have to watch the videos 5 times?!
Best regards
A lot of questions :)
1M measurements will give better results in noisy electric or high room noise floor environments but they take too long to measure over and over. Measurements should always be 0-24000 for 48kHz sampoling rate but at the time I didn't have the DD+ Atmos encoded mp4 files so I had to use 20-20kHz. These files are not easy to produce. You cannot measure Atmos speakers with 512k beccause you don;t have the DD+ files for it. Now the questions:
1. RMS average for target level , vector average for XO.
2. Q factors given in the links were calculated by myself and optimized by John (the author of REW) for SR6015 and they work with most Marantz/Denon amps, I don't think they are different for SR7005 but I cannot be sure. You should be able to tell from your results. The GEQ are quite standard btw.
3. Put one of the speakers on a roller board without the spikes (so the total height is similar) and measure it with fdw:15 and pyshcoacoustic smoothing at different locations. Pick the location with the minimum distance between highest peak and lowest dip of the frequency response in the 20-20,000Hz area. Place the other speaker symmetrically on the opposit side.
4. Yes, you can apply everything in the method with XT.
There's an index with chapter titles in every video?
Tip:To advance frame by frame in CZcams, press the space bar to pause, then "." to go one frame forward and "," to go one frame back.
@@ocaudiophile Thanks very much!
Yes index is present.
What do you mean by XO?
I set fdw:15 and pyshcoacoustic smoothing as default.
That's how I did it all day today but without a roller board.
Many positions and FL and FR always positioned the same and measured individually and together, now I don't feel like it anymore ;)
However, I still had a problem with the impulse.
All speakers on the AVR were connected the same way with plus and minus. Still had to swap polarity on 3 speakers so all tips pointed in the same direction.
However, it still happens from time to time that the tip suddenly points in the other direction during a measurement.
Do you know why?
And what's still strange, when I measure L and F together, I get a sharp drop of 10dB+ in the high frequency range
Crossover
That's because the mic is not in the exact middle of these two speakers and their high frequency phases are cancelling each other out. Move the mic to the central position.
What to do when my distance setting limit has been reached? I need to add 3 meters more delay to my subwoofer response, but my Marantz receiver won't let me do it because the distance apart my center/sub is too high :(
Are all other speaker distances set correctly? Because then you can enter distance value up to 6m more than the shortest speaker distance for the sub.
@@ocaudiophile yes. Everything is aligned, but the subwoofer is still 3,986 meters too late :(
My setup consists of 4 subwoofers which i have aligned with MSO and a minidsp.. perhaps there is some sort of delay/latency that happens? Either way, the distance delta is maxed out in my receiver and there is no other way I can input "negative delay" for the subwoofers for them to arrive earlier in the impulse response :/
My closest speaker is 1.81m distance and my subwoofers is maxed out at 7.71 meters (and i need about 4 meters more for them to align).
@@BuffSquadBigBenni If you can't decrease the delays in MiniDSP and I know you can't, your only option is to adjust sub impulse timing not to the highest peak but the peak before that.
@@ocaudiophile thank you, will see what I can do :)
@@BuffSquadBigBenni did you get it to work?
Question from a newb. At the end of the video after you’ve applied the filters that rew recommends why do you remeasure with rew to match the target SP that the eq recommends ? Couldn’t you just run pink noise through the speakers using rew and level match the speakers to 70db or whatever’s you choose to make sure there all playing at the same volume? I think I’m missing something. Can someone try to clear this up for me. Thanks!
You cannot play pink noise from speakers with the filters on. Audyssey test tones will bypass any filters.
Even if the pink noise is generated from REW itself with the signal generator and built in SPL meter? I thought it was only the receivers internal test tones that would ignore any EQ work done. My receiver is an A8a. It uses YPAIO. Don’t know if that makes a difference. I also forgot to add that I only used this method for my 7.1 channels. Not my atmos. Haven’t gotten there yet.
Rew will read what it hears from the mic. I am trying to say that, you will not be able to play the sweeps with the EQ filters engaged. What AVR are you using?
@@ocaudiophile Im using a Yamaha a8a. I was just thinking after EQing all the speakers I could just go to the signal generator and run the built in spl meter with the random pink noise and recheck the volume levels between the speakers instead of using the sweeps. Am I making any sense?
I understand that this isn’t possible with atmos channels. Another question I had was how you came about your target SPL. Was that just based off the first speakers calculated target level response or did it have something to do with your subwoofers target level. I wasn’t able to get any good measurements from my subs. No matter what I did it was always to quiet for REW or way to loud. Tried measuring in full range and up to 250 hz with -10 applied and it just didn’t seem right. Would be nice if Yamaha allowed you to adjust the lfe channel in the receiver.
I see you have measurement level at -12 dBFS. If I set my recover to reference volume 0. Then my sweeps are way too loud. Is it better to adjust the receiver volume down or the dBFS to -30 (or something like this). Does it matter which way I adjust ?
The level in preferences tab is always around -12. You have to check level with the button in Measurement window or REW SPL meter.
So adjust AVR volume down
@@djarthur78 Yes
I am curious. Instead of turning the volume down on the LFE channel by -10 why not just run the sub sweep on the right or left main speaker channel with the speaker cables disconnected to whatever main speaker is being used?
@@ts6640 It could be done but it's more convenient for me to do it on PC screen rather than fiddling with the speaker cables.
I am able to access the Denon X4300h receiver settings page by adding my ip address/settings, but dont know how to access the main menu page - any suggestions pls
Did you try adding ":10443" after the IP address?
@@ocaudiophile Actually yes, I saw that on your video and tried it, but was unsuccessful.
manuals.denon.com/AVRX2800H/EU/EN/RQIFSYzprtydut.php
@@ocaudiophile Yep found this page too but it doesnt get me to that page which shows '
advanced settings' I simply get 'Page not found' when I type ip:10443 while strangely when I type ip/settings/ it takes me to the network page.
It might be related to your local network or browser security settings
Is there a way to put uncorrelated pink noise through rew
Yes you can generate pretty much any useful test signal in the generator
@@ocaudiophile do you know to do it and what rew calls it
@@msoles30 www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/siggen.html
What's the master volume in your receiver for doing speaker measurements?
-25dB which is around 75dB in SPL reading! You can set your reciever volume directly from your browser with this command:
192.168.0.229:8080/goform/formiPhoneAppDirect.xml?MV55
with your receiver's correct IP in place.
@@ocaudiophile so you mean test right or left speaker until reach 75db?
@@avsolutions212 There's a "Check Level" button in the REW measurement window. You can use that just before running the sweep. Anything above 70dB for a single speaker is fine. Just make sure once set, you don't change the AVR volume until you complete all measurements.
@@ocaudiophile so need to check level for every speaker, is that right?
@@avsolutions212 Yes and adjust the speaker's volume trim in the receiver if you need to. And after EQ you should recheck and readjust as EQ changes the volume level a bit.
I'm gonna do this on the weekend, just one question I have two subs.
Is it better to do this for the sub, or the Optimal Subwoofer Alignemt with Cross Correlation video?
Or a combination of both, which one should I do then first?
Are you using a MiniDSP to combine the two subs as one or are they both connected to the receiver?
@@ocaudiophile They are both connected to the processor and have their own output (I can do all settings separate for each woofer and have a 6 band PEQ for each) (Its a Tonewinner AT300)
That's good because you cannot manually EQ subs in the SR6015 (I've the same). All you will need to set up in the receiver is their distances and volume levels. You can useoptimal subwoofer alignement video to decide the optimal timing (distance) difference between the subs and dial that in the MiniDSP. A MiniDSP will usually introduce extra delays to the system which can make it impossible to align the combined subwoofer impulse peak with the rest of the speakers. In that case, align the first impulse peak of the sub to time 0. It'll sound just as good.
@@ocaudiophile I was actually wrong, Left and Right have one EQ and all Sub outs have one EQ.
How would one use one EQ for both left and right?
You can follow the method in this video to align the subs between each other:
czcams.com/video/ga2eOwJRtXo/video.html
Once you align the subs with REW's "Alignment tool" for phase alignment, use REW's auto EQ feature to find the necessary filters for the "aligned sum". Apply these filters to your subs using thier own PEQ.
Then you can follow the "Manual Tuning" method for the rest.
How to find the right crossovers for each speakers
İt's the last section in the video around 00:35:00
why didnt you just use the REW alignment tool ?
My two subs are already aligned with that tool and those delay values are in a minidsp controlling them. For time and volume alignment purposes with the rest of the speakers, they're just 1 sub. I showed that in another video.
THANK YOU for your effort! When I try to match subs and the other channels, i dont get the "regular" impulse response - It's only one long decreasing line, does not look like the impulse of the other speakers :/
It's peak could be far away, "Fit to Data" and "Plot Normalized" and it should show up. If you measure the sub from 0Hz to 250Hz (instead of 24,000Hz), it's impulse peak could be visualized better.
@@ocaudiophile Incredible fast response :D Will try that, seems logic, as i use different dsps chained to each other, it may 50ms or so. Thanks for the hint! Now the only issue is, that the avr cuts the last acoustic timing reference, so the measurement starts only with the first reference, runs through and lacks the "ending reference" I guess it's a signal detection issue.
@@Paffi. you need to tick "adjust clock with acoustic timing" in preferences /analysis
@@ocaudiophile will try it! Strange, that this behaviour dont occur, when I use one of the dsps as sound source directly (instead of thr avr). Do you have a funding page, to support you?
@@Paffi. No, I don't ;)
Whats your rew version is it standard version or beta version? Why iam asking this question means for me equaliser editing option doesn't show so thats why iam asking
I am using an early access version that's earlier than a beta. You can find it if you "google REW early access"!
@@ocaudiophile please put me link here, and also i have small doubt you said harman curve 120hz and 80hz, is it need to change any crossover for mains or lfe bass ?
İt's for Crossover, LFE should almost always stay at 120 Hz
@@ocaudiophile is that equaliser option changes only in that versions or any other rew versions
@@ocaudiophile please sir if you dont mind put link in a comment section
awesome tutorial. I have questions, how to applying eq for front as denon eq for both left and right front. Should I average spl L and R from the REW then EQ?
Are you sure? It should have separate graphic equalizers for left and right speakers?
@@ocaudiophile i will check again later, maybe my fault. Another questions, my subwoofer located just behind the front speaker. Physical distance front and center are about the same, 2.9 meter and the subs around 3.2meter. The strange thing when I use rew for the sub impulse response, I cannot match with the center (as reference) cause the denon can go only 7.65m and the sub impulse res still 1.5m short according to rew meaaurement. And this without using any minidsp for the subs. Any idea what did i do wrong? Thanks.
That's normal, extra delays possibly caused by filters in the sub. You can align the first peak of the sub that's in the same direction with center speaker's highest peak.
@@ocaudiophile i see. The firsr impulse peak of the subs is the opposite peak of center speaker. So, I can just inverted the subs to get align with the center speaker. Is this correcf? Thank you. Another questions, what is the difference the sweep test from your file vs the sweep test using rew? Other than your file can do atmos and rew cannot.
@@1psxpat Don't invert subwoofer polarity, just align the next (or previous) peak of the sub which is in the same direction with the center speaker.
REW (and Windows for that matter) cannot produce Atmos decoded sweeps thus you play them in Windows Media Player and REW listens to them and records them. These Atmos files are mp4 files created by a lot of effort in Amazon Web Services.
When playing the test sweeps from file. All the files either play through my right channel or left channel. They don't play in any other speaker. Is there something I am missing. I am playing the sweeps off a laptop.
Are you using ASIO or Java Exclusive drivers?
@@ocaudiophile I'm using asio drivers for rew, and I disable them like you showed in the video. Do I somehow need to set asio drivers for playing other content other than Rew?
@@ocaudiophile I tried on 2 different computers and still only plays sound through stereo. There has to be a setting that I am missing.
@@robotag95 Not really, WMP usually automatically plays these files thorugh Atmos channels even when Windows default player (the reciever) is set to stereo. Something must be off, keep checking!
Are you on Windows 10 or 11? Maybe lower versions of Windows are not Atmos capable?
No matter what I do I am unable to make the calibration sounds come out of the atmos speakers. I have followed exactly what you do in the video and it doesnt want to work at all. I have a denon 3700h amp
Check I'd denon is the default player in Windows sound settings
@@ocaudiophile yep, did that and it is but still not working
AVR not in Multch in mode?
@@ocaudiophile I'm not sure how to force it into that mode but I have done it while it's in that mode. Multi ch in 7.1. but still nothing comes out the Atmos speakers and seems to come out one of the fronts
It should not be in multch in mode, stereo is fine. Try VLC player if all else fails with WMP
Hi OCA i think i got it for the first part. Only i had to set my sub distance to 8m to align with my center. After doing all speakers my marantz set mij distance automaticly back to 7.20 m and i cant change it because of incorrect speaker settings. any idea?
You can't enter a distance for the sub more than about 6m higher than other speakers. Try to align for the first impulse peak of the sub. That will also sound good.
Thanks for the help!
Hey OCA! I’m struggling and could use some help. I have a Denon x3800H, 3 channel emotiva amp, 7.2.2 klipsch reference, and using a UMIK-1.
Issues:
1. I am getting a periodic (40% of runs) drop on my front right channel. It’s between 1k and 2khz with amp, and directly to receiver it drops to around the 600hz mark. What could be the cause of that? I’m positive the wiring is good. I haven’t noticed this same problem on my other speakers yet, but I haven’t run 10+ checks on all of them.
2. All of my speakers give off a random pop around mid test during 20-20khz sound. Is that normal?
3. I will sometimes have loud crackling noise from REW when playing sample db testing and when running tests. However it never happens with your sweep files.
4. My sub EQ graph looks like a mountain, with a slight upward bump around 120hz. Is that an okay spot to pick for the reference DB level?
Thanks in advance!
Crackling noise could be REW sample rate being different to the sample rate in the Windows audio properties default format setting. Also check ASIO, Umik and Denon dirver buffer sizes, increase if you need to. Lastly, Consider using Java EXCL drivers instead of ASIO. The measurement irregularities could all be stemming from that.
@@ocaudiophile Hey OCA, so I narrowed down the "drop" in my speakers to it ONLY occuring when I am doing the REW measurement (using microphone). When im not taking a measurement I can play the test tone 50 times with it never dropping, but once I hit measure it is a ~70% chance to drop. I am wondering if there are other effects from this because my measurements are rarely repeatable. Often differ by several inches and amplitude from eachother, even when I am listening and removing obvious dropped measurement test runs.
Any insight into why this may be happening? I updated my NVIDIA HD Audio drivers today, but this glitch was happening yesterday as well.
Just wanted to follow up incase anyone else has this issue! Finally finished calibration! My solution was two use two separate computers. One for recording, and the other for playing the sounds. This completly solved my speaker crackling, drops, and inconsistent measurements I was having.
THANK YOU OCA for your tutorials! You're the sound guru we all need!
So would you recommend using this method with the custom wave files instead of the of your height channel video?
which video are you referring to?
@@ocaudiophile its the one right before this one "Dolby Atmos Height Channels Measurement & Calibration with REW" also which phone app did you use for measuring your speaker distance? i use android
@@_shogun_gaming_Both videos apply the same method. The mp4 Atmnos sweeps are also the same, just the lengths are different. The longer sweeps are always better in terms of resolution but will take more time of course. The complimentary video's main difference is it doesn't use the chirps for distance measurements as some users don't have chirps
I used "measure" app which comes preloaded in Iphones with the IOS.
@@ocaudiophile ye im one of those with no chirps showing up ;)
@@ocaudiophile i keep getting clock adjustment is unusually high and low dp warning,
I have a strange problem. I was trying to time align my sub but I was getting a very large delay of around 22 milliseconds. This is outside the range of what speaker distance settings can compensate for. I am using a Denon 4700h and eventually tried adjusting the Audio/Bass Sync setting. The default was 0ms, I changed this to 16ms (the maximum) and my delay dropped to 6ms. Does this seem correct? It seems to me that this setting on the Denon is reversed? Thanks for these tutorials, they are superb.
Are you measuring your sub with a narrow frequency range like 20Hz-200Hz? That will make it easier to see and compare it's impulse peak. 22ms is about 7.5 meters which you should be able to dial in the receiver. The limit is something like 7.87m. This kind of delay /distance is normal if you're using a minidsp.
Yes, I'm using the narrow frequency range. The maximum difference between speakers that the Denon will allow me to set is 6 meters. My Atmos speakers are set to 3 meters so the maximum I can adjust the subwoofer to is 9 meters. The Bass Sync setting is per input on the Denon. I also am unsure if I adjust that to set the subwoofer distance how it would affect timing for bass that is redirected to the subwoofer by the crossover rather than directly by the LFE input.
I am using a mini dsp, so I actually removed it and hooked 1 sub only up directly. It's with the direct connection that I was getting 22ms. The sub is an Arendal. Arendal say the Subs onboard DSP adds 8ms. I also checked an older SVS sub and it was the same. I also used a PC and a laptop just to rule that out, if that's even possible to have an effect.
@@DanielCollins Marantz amps don't have that bass sync but from what I understand it acts on the LFE channel only so when you measure limited range that should be the one to adjust.
@@DanielCollins so even when you directly connect a sub and enter the highest possible delay /distance value, it's impulse peak is still on the right side of time 0?
hey man ...get a better microphone ....it sounds like a walmart mic you are using and very low output
It’s loud and clear for me.