I love that you guys have been expanding the discussion topics lately. So far we’ve had a lot of Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic discussion, as well as Anglican Protestant. And now recently we’ve been getting some Mormonism, and more Islam. Next you guys should have a Jewish person on the show! Or maybe even a pagan (Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist would be preferable to a Norse/Greek pantheon larper). Also a Lutheran and Calvinist, if you haven’t had any of them on yet
Much more coming your way. We are in discussion to get a prominent Jewish apologist on the show to debate some time in late 2020 or early 2021. Best theological content on the web. Much more coming your way.
Overall this was a good discussion among Christians and interesting to hear. I enjoyed hearing from Prof. Reynolds, who is a respectable scholar, except that he seems curiously and perhaps purposely unknowing about some important topics, including parallels to Christianity (strange, as his whole career’s foundation is on a Christian/biblical-Islamic/Quranic comparison). There are clear and widespread examples of the physical characteristics of heaven and hell in Catholic literature from the Middle Ages, for example. About causing evil or opposing unbelievers, just look in your very Lord’s prayer, where God leads people into temptation. If the God of the Quran is a trickster, then so is the Christian God. God is the Creator being in Christianity too - the problem of evil is a philosophical issue that Christians have had to grapple with actually much more than Muslims. There is no contradiction between rejecting Trinitarianism and also believing some Christians are able to enter Heaven. You don't have to be perfect to be good. Reynolds doesn’t do justice to the issue of divine justice in Islam. In Islam, the very act of judgment is divine justice - people are held to account. And the fact that Reynolds didn’t walk out of a question about Quranic reliability that was clearly prefaced by an intent to prepare for a debate against Muslims - that made me lose quite a bit of respect for him. He is an academic, and his public role shouldn’t be one of a polemicist. Plus, his answer was a half answer at best. The Quran is highly well preserved, and Reynolds knows it - better than any other ancient or Late Antique scriptural tradition. And that's why he comfortably relies on it to try to understand Islamic origins. Yes, there are variant recitations called qiraat - the differences of which are insignificant - and sure, there were companion codices before or contemporaneous to the Uthmanic codex. But even the Sana palimpsest doesn’t diverge that significantly. It maintains meanings, syntax, verse order, and so on. You can refer to scholars who specifically study that manuscript for more information. The differences are fascinating as a study of the complexity of scribalism and oral transmission. But nonetheless, Muslims clearly treated the Quran with fidelity the likes of which are not seen in Christianity. That neither proves nor disproves that the Quran is the word of God, but it’s an observable fact of the human world.
There is no god but God alone... Christians who followed the genuine teachings of Jesus Christ (Monotheism) will surely going to Enter Jannah(paradise). As simple as that. Including the Jews and sabians who followed Allah and His prophets who worship no one except Allah alone. Islam urges its followers to do all good deeds as much as possible and avoid all its opposites and by the End everything will be depending upon God’s Mercy & Grace... guys don’t be bias, the mercy of Allah is over spread in all parts of the HolyQuran. Still the belief of Islam is more rational and reasonable than of what Christianity ✝️ has.
The ayah regarding Mary worship with Jesus could be related to the worship of their icons or idols in the Imperial Roman Byzantine cult in Jerusalem in 7 a.d. Also, the byzantine orthodox hymns in 6 & 7 a.d. describe Mary as God's wife and mother.
In the same sura which u mantion secondly means that christain who accept jessuse as a messenger of Allah and and jew accept mossese as the messenger of Allah they are muslim bcz they submit there well to the will of Allah and worshiping only to allah.
Sorry, but dr. Reynolds is not really that expert in Quranic theology. He got many things wrong. Not sure why is that? Is he not interested in Quranic theology? Is his field of experty is just Islamic history maybe?
Sorry, but none of this is new! Many scholars before have said this. And the reference to John's Gospel is a laugh since it's such a departure from the earlier gospel of Mark, Luke and Mathew. Present day Christianity is a Pauline creation and far removed from the original message of the historical Jesus. In fact, Christianity as we understand it has little to do with Jesus's teachings. And, bwt, the overlap between Christianity and Islam is litlle compared to Judaism & Islam, despite all the apparent claims being made here!
Very interesting! The great problem with Islam is of course the great gap between the somewhat uncertain historical and theological contexts of the Quran and later Islamic orthodoxy of the Abbasid period, both Sunni and Shia. I personally hold to the idea of the Caliph Abd Malik being the original author and protagonist of the Quran as he was the builder also of the enigmatic Dome of the rock. A sort of failed apocalyptic leader of a militarized judeo-gnostic arab christian sect who eventually through its surviving scripture (the Quran) became the unwitting founder of Islam. Unwitting in the sense that he expected the end of the world and the return of Christ in his own life time (late 7th - early 8th centuries).
That doesn't work, because the hashemi families have been around since before Abdul Malik. This doesn't really work historically unless you basically just want to toss out all islamic history imo, and only accept things westerners have written in their books after readings little bits of the islamic tradition
@@syedhasanahmed3514 The Muhammad of the Sira and Hadith and the first four caliphs are pious fictions of the Abbasid era. Made to explain and ground the Quran to people living in the later islamic empire of Baghdad. They never existed. Muawiyah was a Christian arab ruler. Then comes Abd Malik and the first prototypical elements of what would become Islam under the Abbasids.
@@syedhasanahmed3514 I dont think it is. Ibn Anas is probably some kind of pseudo-authority, like Hasan Al-Basri etc. Writing in the name of some invented authority is a well known method both in Christianity and Judaism (and other religions). There simply is no islamic literature other than the Quran before the 9th century. In the 9th and 10th centuries it explodes into a giant mass. And why is that? I think the first hundred years of let us call it "proto-islam" simply was a hectic volatile time of apocalyptic fervor. Baghdad (or Madinat-as-Salam "The city of peace" as it was called) clearly was a sort of millennial/utopian construction. Probably meant as an earthly home for Al Mansur/Al Mahdi which I think were titles of Christ Himself. When this energetic period began to wane, orthodox Islam started forming primarily using the structure of rabbinical Judaism as its model.
This channel has come so far. Been here since day #1. Keep it up
This was really good, thank you!
Excellent discussion!
I love that you guys have been expanding the discussion topics lately. So far we’ve had a lot of Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic discussion, as well as Anglican Protestant. And now recently we’ve been getting some Mormonism, and more Islam. Next you guys should have a Jewish person on the show! Or maybe even a pagan (Hindu, Buddhist, or Taoist would be preferable to a Norse/Greek pantheon larper). Also a Lutheran and Calvinist, if you haven’t had any of them on yet
Also a JW might be interesting
We did have a rabbi but we will be doing more and expanding topics.
Much more coming your way. We are in discussion to get a prominent Jewish apologist on the show to debate some time in late 2020 or early 2021. Best theological content on the web. Much more coming your way.
William Albrecht Can’t wait! Keep up the good work!
Reason and Theology Great news! Really good content. Have you had on a non-anglican protestant before?
Overall this was a good discussion among Christians and interesting to hear. I enjoyed hearing from Prof. Reynolds, who is a respectable scholar, except that he seems curiously and perhaps purposely unknowing about some important topics, including parallels to Christianity (strange, as his whole career’s foundation is on a Christian/biblical-Islamic/Quranic comparison). There are clear and widespread examples of the physical characteristics of heaven and hell in Catholic literature from the Middle Ages, for example. About causing evil or opposing unbelievers, just look in your very Lord’s prayer, where God leads people into temptation. If the God of the Quran is a trickster, then so is the Christian God. God is the Creator being in Christianity too - the problem of evil is a philosophical issue that Christians have had to grapple with actually much more than Muslims. There is no contradiction between rejecting Trinitarianism and also believing some Christians are able to enter Heaven. You don't have to be perfect to be good. Reynolds doesn’t do justice to the issue of divine justice in Islam. In Islam, the very act of judgment is divine justice - people are held to account. And the fact that Reynolds didn’t walk out of a question about Quranic reliability that was clearly prefaced by an intent to prepare for a debate against Muslims - that made me lose quite a bit of respect for him. He is an academic, and his public role shouldn’t be one of a polemicist. Plus, his answer was a half answer at best. The Quran is highly well preserved, and Reynolds knows it - better than any other ancient or Late Antique scriptural tradition. And that's why he comfortably relies on it to try to understand Islamic origins. Yes, there are variant recitations called qiraat - the differences of which are insignificant - and sure, there were companion codices before or contemporaneous to the Uthmanic codex. But even the Sana palimpsest doesn’t diverge that significantly. It maintains meanings, syntax, verse order, and so on. You can refer to scholars who specifically study that manuscript for more information. The differences are fascinating as a study of the complexity of scribalism and oral transmission. But nonetheless, Muslims clearly treated the Quran with fidelity the likes of which are not seen in Christianity. That neither proves nor disproves that the Quran is the word of God, but it’s an observable fact of the human world.
Thanks, you have a thorough observation than most people, Baruch HaShem!
There is no god but God alone...
Christians who followed the genuine teachings of Jesus Christ (Monotheism) will surely going to Enter Jannah(paradise). As simple as that.
Including the Jews and sabians who followed Allah and His prophets who worship no one except Allah alone.
Islam urges its followers to do all good deeds as much as possible and avoid all its opposites and by the End everything will be depending upon God’s Mercy & Grace... guys don’t be bias, the mercy of Allah is over spread in all parts of the HolyQuran. Still the belief of Islam is more rational and reasonable than of what Christianity ✝️ has.
The ayah regarding Mary worship with Jesus could be related to the worship of their icons or idols in the Imperial Roman Byzantine cult in Jerusalem in 7 a.d. Also, the byzantine orthodox hymns in 6 & 7 a.d. describe Mary as God's wife and mother.
In the same sura which u mantion secondly means that christain who accept jessuse as a messenger of Allah and and jew accept mossese as the messenger of Allah they are muslim bcz they submit there well to the will of Allah and worshiping only to allah.
Top
Sorry, but dr. Reynolds is not really that expert in Quranic theology. He got many things wrong. Not sure why is that? Is he not interested in Quranic theology? Is his field of experty is just Islamic history maybe?
@Amir Hossian No, he is Catholic.
Sorry, but none of this is new! Many scholars before have said this. And the reference to John's Gospel is a laugh since it's such a departure from the earlier gospel of Mark, Luke and Mathew. Present day Christianity is a Pauline creation and far removed from the original message of the historical Jesus. In fact, Christianity as we understand it has little to do with Jesus's teachings.
And, bwt, the overlap between Christianity and Islam is litlle compared to Judaism & Islam, despite all the apparent claims being made here!
Very interesting! The great problem with Islam is of course the great gap between the somewhat uncertain historical and theological contexts of the Quran and later Islamic orthodoxy of the Abbasid period, both Sunni and Shia. I personally hold to the idea of the Caliph Abd Malik being the original author and protagonist of the Quran as he was the builder also of the enigmatic Dome of the rock. A sort of failed apocalyptic leader of a militarized judeo-gnostic arab christian sect who eventually through its surviving scripture (the Quran) became the unwitting founder of Islam. Unwitting in the sense that he expected the end of the world and the return of Christ in his own life time (late 7th - early 8th centuries).
That doesn't work, because the hashemi families have been around since before Abdul Malik. This doesn't really work historically unless you basically just want to toss out all islamic history imo, and only accept things westerners have written in their books after readings little bits of the islamic tradition
@@syedhasanahmed3514 The Muhammad of the Sira and Hadith and the first four caliphs are pious fictions of the Abbasid era. Made to explain and ground the Quran to people living in the later islamic empire of Baghdad. They never existed. Muawiyah was a Christian arab ruler. Then comes Abd Malik and the first prototypical elements of what would become Islam under the Abbasids.
@@ausonius100 The muwatta of anas bin maalik is older than that, though.
@@syedhasanahmed3514 I dont think it is. Ibn Anas is probably some kind of pseudo-authority, like Hasan Al-Basri etc. Writing in the name of some invented authority is a well known method both in Christianity and Judaism (and other religions). There simply is no islamic literature other than the Quran before the 9th century. In the 9th and 10th centuries it explodes into a giant mass. And why is that? I think the first hundred years of let us call it "proto-islam" simply was a hectic volatile time of apocalyptic fervor. Baghdad (or Madinat-as-Salam "The city of peace" as it was called) clearly was a sort of millennial/utopian construction. Probably meant as an earthly home for Al Mansur/Al Mahdi which I think were titles of Christ Himself. When this energetic period began to wane, orthodox Islam started forming primarily using the structure of rabbinical Judaism as its model.
@@ausonius100 what is your proof? Just assumptions and pseudo history