Painting DIYers Beware: The Dangers of Using PVA as a Primer
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- Hey there, DIYers! Are you thinking of using PVA as a primer before painting? NO WAY!
Let me show you what happens when you use PVA on a surface you want to paint over. Check out this plasterer's job - yikes!
PVA is not a primer for bare plaster if you plan on painting over it. It will react with your paint over time and cause major problems. You need the right primer for the surface you're working on, so don't cut corners!
There are plenty of suitable primers out there that will help you get the job done right. PVA might seem like a cheap and easy solution, but trust me, it's not worth it.
You need paint that can soak into a bare surface and adhere properly, and PVA just won't cut it.
So if you're ever in doubt about what primer to use, just check the technical data sheet of the paint you're working with. Different surfaces require different primers, so make sure you're using the right one!
And please, for the love of all that is holy, stop using PVA (even diluted) as a bare plaster or surface primer. It's just not a good idea. If you need to size your walls before wallpapering, use wallpaper paste thinned down instead. Trust me, your walls (and your sanity) will thank you!
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Hey man, i live in america and PVA is a commonplace primer in new construction over drywall. You have to understand that we don't typically use plaster hardly at all in new construction anymore, at least on the west coast. I do think its used more on the east coast, though, in restorations and high end stuff, but plaster is a totally different beast from drywall, as far as i can tell, and likely requires a different primer.
Also, i think the term "pva" is a bit confusing. There is polyvinyl acetate, polyvinyl acrylic, polyvinyl alchohol, and PVA glue, whatever that is. Very confusing. Acetate and acrylic are what we use on new drywall. The alchohol is used on fiberglass boats, cars, and such. The glue is a glue and not even a primer!
Im reading the comment section and people are so up in arms arguing either side, but i think its mostly misunderstanding. I am a painter in california, and i think what concerns me about a video like this is homeowners will see it and think they've uncovered some dirty secret we were hiding from them, when we were really just doing the job right.
Dont worry about the haters. You obviously saw a problem with the substrait and took the long, painful, but necessary steps to fix it. CZcams comments may hate you, but your client will probably love you. Just remember that the latter are actually paying you, lol
Thank you for reaching out from across the Pond.
I'm in the UK, and this is a big problem with those with little knowledge in the UK.
USA... yes you are correct, I think your PVA is toatlly different to what we use.. what we have is a GLUE.. its what kids use at school to stick pasta to a piece of card and paint it with a gold rattle can of paint lol
'our' PVA is not suitable for bare plaster... it reacts with the surface and it's good for painting over.
thank you for replying :)
I must have missed something i"m a retired painter of 19 years a disney world and all we ever used was a form a pva on freshly mudded drywall, works great, also it looks to me like in the video that wall had some sort of a glossy coat like maybe it was oil base and you can not use a latex base paint over oil, every painter worth his salt knows that, the other way around is possible however, that's all i have to say on the subject
Yeah, I'm not sure what you have in the states. But PVA isn't a thing here.
It's a glue.
And those walls were emulsion... No oil.
I'm no expert, but PVA is for new drywall work. Idk why anyone would use it elsewhere.
Great video Phil...its about time someone got this out there...
Complete waste of time as a mist/sealer under paint.
It has no opacity, its reactivated by water/moisture, and can cause following coats to peel. As a 'sealer' bare plaster isn't sealed, its primed..
And to top it all, most PVA manufacturers say not to use it under water based paint.
DIY myth, paint company's specifiers and architects etc don't specify PVA, and 99% of decorators don't use it.
nice to see someone on the tube who knows what they are talking about. i've been in the game a long time and use old school methods, if it ain't broke don't fix it😉
But some don't like what I say..... Hey Ho.
;)
Thanks for the support:D
Hi. Phil. This is really top advice. You are super cool
Im glad I watched this video, my ceilings are patchy/bleeding after many coats of cheap matt. Someone recommended i use pva, I watched another one of you video's and took your recommendedations and bought johnstones trade stain block matt. As im a smoker. I would be swearing vigorously pealing pva off the ceiling. Your videos have been very helpfull..
Tnx. If only more people were like you and listened ;)
At last! I bang on and on about this to anyone who'll listen. Too many crap spreads around now giving crap advice and information. Not just spreads but crap chippies, sparks, plumbers, tilers etc. I get sick to bottom of my balls sorting their shit work out and being paid the least for it. I used a whole can of foam today filling massive gaps left by the so-called carpenter who couldn't join a queue. Tomorrow I have to make it look amazing or I won't be paid. Rant over. Great work Phil, keep it up mate.
Will the competitors bite 🎣😉 I sometimes use it to bind taped walls before paper hanging but never painting
Had this argument a few times with certain painters on a particular youtube channel who insist on using at as a sealer. Big NO , NO.
The same ones who won't use a dustless sander or use a 12" roller I'm guessing 😄
@@mattychapatti7342 ah the foam filler man
So at work a colleague of mine was told to use PVA as a primer for painting wooden signs, I thought it was a stupid idea but I'd like to know what you think.
It's a glue and it will peel off.
Why would someone say that.
Thanks for the info very informative. I will only use PVA glue on wood work joints from now on, thanks.
Sounds good to me lol
Have a watch of a recent video where I show papering a ceiling.
You'll see where PVA has been used and what it looks like!!!
Great video again I come across this time and time again, this is what you have to do even before you've started the job, well done Phil.
Im a multi trade plumber and had a wall to prep for painting. I bought a new scraper and got carried away and scraped the paint off the entire wall because it came off so easy! I believe the previous painter went on to fresh plaster with a mist coat but didnt prime well.. after scraping paint off im left with a really dusty white wall. Can any of you legends recommend what to use to get my dulux diamond matt to bond beautifully instead of the rubbish bond the previous painter did? Id be so greatful for any advice.
Great video! Being a multi trade guy I am always looking for how to make the next job easier and being considerate of the next tradesmen coming in to do the next job, cos its usually me 😁
Hi.
As it's had dodgy stuff on before, give it a light sand over... Fill if needed .. give it a coat of Zinnser Gardz.
Or for new plaster a wash coat of bare plaster primer... Screwfix sell it.
Don't wash coat it Diamond Mat!!
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator Your an absolute gem. Top man. Thankyou for takin the time to reply Phil.
Have heard many plasterer recommend to customers to seal with PVA if they want to DIY or prep for a decorator.Also the DIY branches have been known to push it.
A cause of many a emulsioned flaking ceiling in older properties..
The inevitable "we've always had problems in that room"
As I'm sure P n D's have heard many a time.
I've fell out with loads of so called trades telling me use PVA as a primer sealer. I sand everywhere with mirka, sugar soap wash and follow the directions on the tin diluting for first coat on new plaster. Leaves a sheen underneath the paint. I'll only use PVA for bear brick bond skim filling
And that's it's only use for a decorator.
Good luck trying to get a plasterer to prime with Gardz or Peelstop, we must count ourselves lucky if the bother to wipe the neat PVA runs off the dado or skirting when its wet and easy to wipe!
Been quite lucky. The usual plaster we deal with keeps the PVA area to a minimum and knows I moan if they get it all over the place.
But this work wasn't done by who we normally follow up after.
I used PVA primer once on bare drywall (United States). I had peeling issues. I don’t understand all the hate you’re getting in these comments. I absolutely agree with you.
PVA is total trash. It’s not worth the cost savings. Contractors should do themselves and your clients a favor and just spend the extra money on a good primer.
I moved into my new house, and when I repainted the one drywall surface in the bedroom, the whole new paint and the coat underneath peeled off! I was left with original drywall brown surface! I peeled it off so easily, probably because of the new paint making the wall damp. I peeled everything off, apart the edges, as others already mentioned in the comments. I wonder if that is the same PVA issue ? 🤔🤔
@@jhutfre4855 that’s exactly what happened to me. It may not be PVA, but it’s definitely a “prepping” issue, no matter what the cause
I tried watered pva as a mist coat/primer on new skim plaster. Ended up scraping the new emulsion coat off. Came off in sheets like wallpaper.
It just formed a skin and the paint didn't stick to the wall.
Maybe some people can make it work but I couldn't. UK based.
It doesn't work, that's the thing. As you've found out the hard way. :(
I am a paint retailer in Ireland and I am sick of customers coming into my shop for PVA. They are usually recommended to use it by a "Painter " for both inside and more worrying outside also some painters recommend adding it to Weathershield to help it stick and make it more durable. FFS
You'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting too.
Much appreciated
One brand of pva tells you that it can be used with cement paints
"prime example" 🤣🤣 your a funny guy. So true about PVA, seen that so many times when working on building jobs.
Glad you picked up on it lol
Would it be appropriate to use PVA on a plaster surface, with existing paint, after sanding, and prior to skim coat with setting type drywall compound?
Or would GARDZ or ODERLESS oil primer be a better choice?
Well I wouldn't. But I bet plenty do.
Prep your wall and Gardz it. Fill any areas. Then touch over the filler with Gardz
Then paint it.
Hi Phil. Thanks for advice. Would you recommend beeline primer sealer after sanding down old emulsion on plasterboard walls before new emulsion, cheers pal
Hi. No. Have a read of the spec for it. The BeeLine primer sealer is for use prior to wallpaper hanging, not prior to emulsion painting. :)
I'm so annoyed, I took wallpaper off that was put on by the previous tenant. The wallpaper came off fine, but then I see this PVA undercoat that is attached to the plaster of the wall! A lot of it I was able to remove, but the corners and edges I cant get to come off, as it is too fiddly and is basically very dry and hard. I have tried hot water, vinegar, fabric softener, white spirits and sanding it down, but that is not working as bits still peel off, so I cant paint over it. Help please!
I've replied to you on the other post
Btw... Don't use fabric softener lol
very informative, ty
Two brothers on here uses pva on new plaster but they mix it very weak so it's not sitting on the plaster so will this still cause problems. A few years ago I used gardz on plaster and it left a sheen to the wall and the leyland retail emulsion I used didn't want to stick to it so what paint would you recommend over gardz
Clearly never been taught correctly or been to college.
I'll say no more.
New plaster, mist/wash coat it. Don't use PVA.
You don't need to Gardz plaster unless it's a problem surface or had wallpaper paste on previously.
You can paint over it.
I don't use retail paint, so unsure how that reacts with trade products.
Tikkurila Optiva 5 goes over Gardz without issue. I've used it before over it.
This is happening to me on a ceiling I plan to wallpaper! After I sand and apply peel stop what should I treat the rest of the ceiling with to avoid the flaking?
Have you watched my how to paper a ceiling video yet?
I totally agree with you mate. Although that looks a damn strong mix of pva.. almost neat. You sure it’s not SBR? Also just as crappy for painting over? Had it myself a few times having to sand off excess pva/sbr sometimes thin and other times thick as rubber
Seeing the plasters... It could be anything lol
I use SBR when patch plastering and never have issues with it when painting... careful application like paint is needed, wouldn't just throw paint at the surface why throw a sealer?
Bit late to this video, but recently watched a video of another "professional" decorator who said you should add pva to filler if been used over emulsion paint otherwise the filler will crack in a couple of months. Your thoughts please?
I think you'll know my thoughts!
LoL
painting use to be simple in terms of what to use . i had a painting business in the late 1960s early seventies . in those days , there was latex or water base paint and lead free oil based paints. pigmented shellac was used as a sealer if needed . that was pretty much it . there was no problem with chemical or mechanical bonds . if you wanted to change from water based to oil or vice versa we just did a quick interface with pigmented shellac which had good adhesion properties and that was that .
You've seen a lot of changes now then.
Did you move into another trade or just do something else?
I learnt about paints & scraping walls at an early age my father was in the game late 50s to mid 60s but he got out as he had plenty of work but no money! The bigger the job the harder it was to get paid
Hi Phil, very pleased i found this as a 'decorator' advised that i should prime an old wall with pva, but maybe because he assumed i was going to skim the whole wall with 'easifill'? I have removed 25 year old wall paper that has also taken off some plaster, and render, in places that i will need to fill before painting. I was going to use dillute pva as the dust sealer as you mentioned before filling. if i do splash pva where it's not wanted will it come off using sugar soap please?
Hi.
If you using it to back prime before filler, you'll be ok ... Just apply it to the area that's needed. PVA will soften backup with water/moisture. So wipe it off any woodwork if you get it on.
But...
Don't be using PVA.... Full Stop prior to painting or wallpapering.
Thank you very much - massively helpful @@ProfessionalPainterDecorator
I mix mine with turps and egg white before applying it to new plaster.
Ideal... With a touch of cinnamon
How do you get rid of the pva the shody plasterz have left sugar soap? Ive washed and sanded and its still there argh
yes, I mention this in the video... about half way through ;)
did you watch it all?
Doesn't one use PVA to stop dusting on fresh plaster prior to applying wallpaper paste to lining paper and then papering the wall? So, whilst PVA it isn't supposed to be touched directly by paint, it does have a place when decorating right?
In simple terms NO.
You don't put PVA on bare plaster... As I discussed in the videos why not.
If you're wallpapering you size the surface with thinned down wallpaper paste... Use the same paste to size the wall as the paste you'll be using to hang the paper.
Or you can use Zinsser Gardz.
Which is alkali resisting... PVA isn't.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecoratorThanks for clearing that up.
How would the plaster marry into the old painted wall with out pva?
By being neater where he splashes it about.
Hi, you seem like a person who is well knowledgeable. My husband and I are renovating an old vintage trailer that has walls lined with wallpaper that do not come off easily. We would like to just prime the surface before limewashing. We are also trying to go for something least toxic to our environment since it is a small closed off space. Do you have any experience with lime wash and pre-prepping walls for this? What would be your recommendations for primer? If you have ANY suggestions, would love to hear your input since we are held back from moving forward with this. We have NO idea what we’re doing so any help is appreciated! Thanks so much!!
hi, when you say lime washing.... what do you mean, what process are you doing?
Did you try a steamer? Steamers work great on removing wallpaper. The heat and moisture softens up the glue of the wallpaper backing and it should come right of in big sheets without damaging the plaster or drywall behind it. Almost every other technique i've seen has limited success.
@@chrisloesch1870 I did that, and the wallpaper came off fine, but the pva coating underneath has been a nightmare, i cant get the corners off. help
In our country we use pva primer only on wall that painted already with jotun penetrating sealer wall
Then we use Acrylic putty then a first coat off whit acrylic paint and the final silky smooth paint
PVA is a glue though.
Pva is not a wood glue, but known as a wood glue, it is a water soluable polymer, and using as a primer basically using as an emulsion stabilizer…
This is from wikipedia :
Poly is a water-soluble synthetic polymer. It has the idealized formula [CH₂CH]ₙ. It is used in papermaking, textile warp sizing, as a thickener and emulsion stabilizer in polyvinyl acetate adhesive formulations, in a variety of coatings, and 3D printing. It is colourless and odorless.
@@Tinnitussss you don't put PVA onto bare plaster.
Painting over it also causes problems.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecoratorI saw a guy pva the brick on the out side of a building then they rendered it so if that were to get damp its all coming off 🤣👍
@@Mattlawton-ft6ew don't they use SBR outside? or should do.. i'm not sure.. i don't use it being a decorator lol
lol
Well, I’m jigged, I was told many years ago, oh yeah you diluted primer of PVA and water, not in all instances but in some have this really weird thing had happened where the paint would stop lifting and peeling and just like you said it’s like pulling off skin sunburned, I didn’t know what was causing it and now I do I totally stripped a room last year pit and ended up papering it took ages. I will never use PVA again. Thank you kindly good sir a very very much amateur DIY decorator painter probably just a painter not a decorator not skilled. I have just learned much though, thank you.😊
Sorry to hear this.... Yes. I explained about it not being alkali resisting.. hence why you get a reaction between the surfaces over time.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator Zinsser is top 👍👍, and expensive😱😱! 😊
And yet you still see people on forums advocating using it ,adding it to emulsion etc I dont know when this started but it never used to be a thing absolutely no reason to do it or no Benefit from doing it ,
Bloody whole house has a pva base layer and a oil top layer, ask me how i now it was done in the 80's by mam under advice of the plasterer, im in my 30's so wondering was water based paint a thing then
Never ask a plasterer about painting anything.
If it's an oil finish. Alkali resisting primer should have been used before applying an oil paint.
Not PVA.
Alright Phil...just subscribed! Im Plastering my own house and its going really well so far... question for u...
Plastered all four walls in a room and got the ceiling to do but it wont be me doing it and im sure your aware that the plasterer will pva 2 coats on the artex ceilimg before Plastering. So he will splatter small amounts of watered down pva here and there proba 50/50 ratio pva water. I plan to emulsion when olaster dry...the pva/water thats splashed onto walls will this coz a problem for me to emulsion the walls? As its only splatters of 50/50?
Hi ya.... Loads of vids for you to watch then.
PVA splatter.... :( When you do your wash coat of very thinned down emulsion... The splatters of PVA may show, but don't panic, you'll give the wash coated new plaster a light sand anyway. If you see the PVA you can hand sand those if they look to be a problem.
Once you wash coat and sand over the plaster, give it another thinned down coat of emulsion to those surfaces.
Better do thin coats and build up, than trying to rush it with a thick coats over one wash coat.
For your wash coat on new plaster. Do look at dedicated bare plaster primer paints.
Tikkurila Optiva Primer
Or Nonsense bare plaster primer
I'd still thin these slightly, even though they say you can use as they are.
You'll know what feels right when you start to apply, whether it feels a bit thick.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator spot on Phil! That's reassuring then! I'll definitely take note of this as hope to do a mist coat next few Weeks as finish plaster this week so time it dries etc. I've bought an emulsion that's suitable for new plaster "express coat Valspar, pure brilliant white matt" so hopefully 50/50 this with water for mist coat paint it on and I'll look out for the splatter and do as you say sand the imperfections down and second coat that! When you say sand the mist coat before a second coat of mist...is this just literally like a once over say with 120 grit? Think when I get ceilings done I might try hand sheets up the walls hahahaha if it saves me less splatter can't be too daft
This video is giving me nightmares !
I employed a man to install a new bathroom to my Victorian cottage. To keep costs down I decided to do a lot of the work myself to prep the room. On his advise I PVA’d the ceiling. When I the following day tried to paint my new beautiful plastered ceiling, the paint just dripped off. It look me 10 hours to sand the ceiling to remove the PVA. The mess that it made was horrific.
Needless to say. The bathroom fitter turned out to be a complete moron who walked off the job when I challenged his competence. Sadly he caused £100’s of damage.
PVA is the produce of the devil.
I’ve enjoyed watching many of your videos. Thanks for all the advice.
Oh no. At least you got it off.
But once again, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
It works well on new plasterboard taped walls as a sealer either before painting or wallpapering but that it 👍
You know what I'm going to say.....
No no no no no no and no
LoL
@@ProfessionalPainterDecoratorThankfully gypsum is pH neutral so the PVA doesn't actually need to be alkali resisting, if the wall is drywall timber partitioned.
@@bitTorrenter yes, plaster board will be, as it has paper over it, gypsum plaster is still a allali surface.
if you're painting over plaster board I wouldn't use PVA t seal it, why would you need to?
And painting over PVA with emulison... well, that never ends well.
Hi Phil, l recently striped off wallpaper from a 1950s plaster board wall. The top layer of backing paper on the plaster board has been torn off in large areas of the wall . What would you recommend to prepare for painting. I've sanded it down and was wondering if l should seal and give it a skim coat before painting.
If its plaster board paper that's ripped, Zinsser PeelStop is the product to use that will seal those ripped edges.
I'd skim out the damaged areas, with filler. Sand it down, till you're happy with it.
Now if it's only some areas, I'd re PeelStop those areas of filler so they are sealed.
Then for a better job, line the walls, that way you'll have a great new surface to either paint or wallpaper.
I'd need to see it for a better conclusion though lol
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator Thanks Phil! That's great. Yes there's large areas with the last layer of backing paper exposed down to the last layer. What do you mean by lining the wall?
@@user-ct1vo2sd3v wallpapering it with lining paper which you can paint
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator yea ok Phil thanks for the tips . I think l'll see how it looks first before lining it with paper .
Hi whats your thoughts on using diluted pva as a primer on a wall before wallpapering to stop any seam spliting? ❤
Do I need to answer that one?
@ProfessionalPainterDecorator I will take that as a DO NOT DO then. I watch a professional wallpaper guy in the USA and although he says u can use products like gaurdz he uses PVA
@@nataliehayden8330 Spencer?
They don't have plaster walls like we do. They work on dry lined walls....
PVA is not alkali resisting... Plaster wall are alkaline surfaces.
No different to asking.. should not oil paint (oil undercoat, or rggshell or gloss etc) on bare plaster!
Watch the start of this video.
czcams.com/video/E0u6ey-7zaY/video.html
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator yeap Spencer. Thank you
I just had a contractor use PVA after skim coating bathroom ceiling. What can I do now to fix their mistake so it doesn’t start flaking? Should the ceiling be sanded (there is now paint over the PVA) and apply Zinsser Peel Stop before repainting? Instead of PVA should the contractor have applied a mist coat or used an oil based primer after skimcoating?
Hi.
Oil based paint also isn't Alkali resisting on bare plaster.
You'd need Alkali resisting primer on bare plaster, if you wanted to paint it with oil.vaeed paint.
But emulsion is also alkali resisting... So a wash coat of Matt emulsion is fine, or use a bare plaster primer (that's geared up for first coating bare plaster)
Going forward.. the PVA shouldn't have been used on bare plaster
Give the surface a sand over... Use Zinsser Gardz over all of it.
That should help.
If you notice peeling you can use PeelStop.
TBH... Either will be ok, and so much better than using PVA (which I'd wrong, no matter what anyone tells you).
Watch the start of this video and how plaster reacts with a Coat of PVA over .
czcams.com/video/E0u6ey-7zaY/video.html
You're going to be fine, pva as a 1st coat over skim coat is great, just top coat with egg shell or semigloss paint.
@@guyfromaz01 very worrying who's told you that.
PVA isn't alkali resisting. Eggshell and semi gloss Oil paints aren't alkali resisting so you don't put them over bare plaster . As it's an alkaline surface.
Have you heard of saponification and what that is?
Wait till you have a problem. Why fix what's not broken. Fact is many, I'd say millions, in the USA use pva drywall primer first without a problem for many years. The new pva also isnt the same as the old pva. Guardz is only for major problem surfaces, not a fresh skim coat. Plus it reeks to high heaven.
"Saponification of paint is a chemical reaction that occurs when newly plastered substrates are painted with oil paint"
I don't know anyone that uses oil based paint anymore, especially over primed drywall.
We paint high end houses and we always prime interior drywall, so does everyone else. I've been doing this over 30 years and never had an issue painting over primed drywall surfaces with acylic or vinyl latex paint.
That peeling off like a face mask reminds me of valspar paint which whilst it goes on well and covers well its absolute crap for peeling.
I don't understand why you would sand a totally smooth wall before painting it. It seems obvious that if you sand something sitting on the surface, like PVA that it will start peeling off - but why wouldn't you just paint or paper on the surface as it is, without sanding?
You need to watch and look again. a plasterer had blended out an area and use d PVA as his primer getting over the face surface of the wall, which wasn't great anyway, so wanted sanding to improve it. The PVA just sites on the surfaces and starts to peel up when you sand it. Thing is, PVA and bare plaster don't mix, as I say, PVA isn't alkali resisting.. thats why you get a problem with it when you paint over it. The PVA sits on the surface and acts like a balloon skin.
Hi Phil, I new here from the NJ shore in America.
I have an 1800’s house with plaster lathe.
It is incredibly difficult to find tradespeople who actually know what they are doing. Most are alcoholic con artists who take your money and leave your job half done.
I’m repairing a stairwell that was never painted. Had 6 layers of wallpaper I removed.
Some chunks of wall missing, some large cracks, some hairline.
How would you recommend I proceed? ( with US available products) I have filled in the chunks with Plaster Repair.
NeXT recommended steps?
What can I use as a primer that won’t peel or bubble?
( I apologize if you’ve already answered this. Though we both speak English There are apparently LOTS of cultural differences. For example it sounds like you keep saying about using your Mirkin( sanding disk) a “Merkin” is a fake pubic wig apparently popular in the 1800’s. Lol.
So there are definitely language differences. 😅
So glad I couldn’t find the PVA which is in most of the videos I watched.
hi, welcome.
can you get hold Zinsser Gardz & PeelStop where you are?
a Merkin!!! lol yeah, that's just what I was on about to sand the wall lol
Don't be using PVA.. unless it was prior to plastering up the holes, where you'd use it to 'wet in' the area you were going to fill/pllaster back up.
love it, do painters not know what a pain this causes future decorating. if you dont like white washing the walls then plaster sealer or plasterboard sealer is a great product for only a few £ more. nice info phil
Ok, but why did you have to sanded with an orbital sander? Or why it wasn’t a good base for your finish? Let’s get it right the analogy you have given was on point, a sun burn and you peel off, surely if you heat up pva layer to a certain degree then it will peel off, that is a limitation for latex type of applications, so what are you going to say, don’t use latex based paints or products, because it peels of if you use an orbital sander. So my question stands why did you needed to sand it with orbital sander? Where have you ever need it to sand a primer? PVA might be known as a wood paper glue but it works wonder as a primer, to increase the strength of the substrate, to make the surface absorbtion free(D3 only), gives a bit of texture if the surface is smooth, Adding PVA to the plaster %5 - %10 increase the set time, increase the stickiness, makes it free of air bubbles much easier, improves the application experience(plasticity increased) , plasticity increased, it can bear environmental dynamics and chance of cracks decreases, better sound insulation yet again because of improved plasticity, plaster is always water hunger, it decreases rate of absorption(surely a responsiblity of the finish, but this is still an improvement).
I mean any of the things i wrote here, you can find relevant findings on pubmed and researchgate, this thing is researched well, known as a wonderproduct, you are just misleading people…
You don't apply PVA directly to a surface you are going to paint.... As I explained in the video.... PVA isn't alkali resisting.. hence it comes away from an alkaline surface, like plaster.
It is something you learn when at painting college, so not something I'm making up.
Watch my video on wallpapering a ceiling. See how PVA reacts on a surface.
Where I'm at pva is the best thing for priming drywall and joint compound. It penetrates and seals great. I've never seen it peel and be stretchy like that.
Thanks for sharing, your PVA must be different to the glue pva we have here. It's just not a think in painting & decorating... unless you've not been to colleg and learned why you don't use it... you've watched the video.. and have you watch the video about wallpaperinga ceiling where we come up against a previoulsy PVA coating on bare plaster?
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator I just did and again I'm baffled because I've never encountered pva peeling and looking gummy like that. Is the difference that I'm dealing with gypsum board and joint compound versus plaster? Or is there something different about the pva products you think?
Looks like the problem is that they did not dillute it? Yeah if you use a thick undilluted layer. that goes wrong 100%
@@jonasaur6462
It doesn't help that dulux decorator centres sell pva. There's no need to plasters to use it either. It stops walls from breathing and creates a peelable film. PlStwrrs should use something like sbr to seal the area, if needed, using the proper base coat plaster also helps pva is a cheapskates product.
Always great viewing from your vids Phil, as a fellow decorator why would you use PVA as a primer? Its not how we were taught at all, the only time i ever use it is when im prepping before papering with a really porous surface prior to using a paste the wall paper ....not before emulsioning 🙈
Thanks, glad you like them....
....and you know I'll say.... there's no need to use PVA for sizing before papering either, just thin down the paste you'll be using to hang the paper, you only need to even out the porosity of the surface you're working on..... for dry porous painted walls.. I use Gardz.
The problem with using PVA..
1. it's not Alkali Resisting if it goes over bare plaster.
2. when you come to strip the paper off its goes all snotty once the hot water gets to soften it up.
there's no reason to use it really.
That not the pva. There is something leaching through the joint compound.
All I ever use pva for is to prime bare plaster before lining paper.
oh dear :( you know PVA isn't alkali resisting? .. and what is a bare plaster surface?
should be using paste, either water it down to make size or use same strength mix as using for the paper, it tells you on the packet usually, the paper sticks like sh*t to a blanket if you do it right
That’s so so wrong mate ,
When i remodeled my bathroom last year i used pva as a primer and 3 coats of paint. When i wipe down the walls and wainscotting, the paint shows up on the rag. (Im carpenter not a painter by the way). Im still not sure why the paint wipes off when i use a damp rag but next time i will for sure use styx primer which is what my painter friend recommends
aaaarrrh I'm saying about the priming using the PVA... Slap your wrist... But you know not to use it in the future.
Paint coming off on your cloth... What paint was it, normally that happens with a cheap contract Matt paint that's not Hardwear enough to be wiped.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator it was glidden eggshell paint i got at a home depot. It was cheaper than kelly moore that i usually use which is why I bought it. What would you recommend for priming drywall in the future?
@@AN1MOS1TY117 just thin down your emulsion paint.. that's all you'll need to do
only use pva as a primer for freshly installed drywall then paint over it. If your not using a washable latex paint then that's why it's wiping off when you scrub it. The pva helps seal fresh dry wall. New dry wall soaks up so much moisture out of the paint it would take 5 coats and where the mud lines are will dry different as well because they soak up more moisture than the rock so it will flash differently unless sealed first.. now this is how we do dry wall gypsum board. I don't know shit about plaster.
@@joshuadraper1534pva doesnt seem to seal the mud at all.. first topcoat soaks right in to the mud still. If it was actually sealed, that wouldnt happen. Seems for pva heads, an option is spray all the mud first then come back spray & backroll the wall.
I hate when this happens especially when they leave big drips of pva running down walls 🤯
Like joiners and glue drips over wood.
PVA is the devils work. Find it a lot when stripping wallpaper. Creates a total mess. Some guys talk about mixing it with their wallpaper adhesive which baffles me. I would only use it to bind down dusty surfaces in large cracks or holes if nothing else is available.
Zinsser guards is an excellent product and also priced very reasonably 👍
Yeah….. repeat what I’ve said before you…. nice one 👌
It's absolutely spot on.
@@NigelHyphenJones you commented that Zinsser products were expensive and gardz isn’t, don’t spit your dummy out lad! 🤣
Is that bondo body filler on the wall?
which bit, where the plaster patched up?
😂😂
Better tell them 2 brothers who do videos who always use it they are obsessed with it , and expanding foam
two brothers? not sure I know them.
Expanding foam, does have its uses though ;) just not for every hole that needs filling lol
When they use pva they mix it very weak so it's not sitting on the plaster so i'm guessing that's the key or they wouldn't use it.
very interesting
Glad you think so!
Grrat advice there. But guess what. I have some walls to paint wheich just been plastered.
The plasterer advised the client to seal walls with pva.
Only the top half of thr eall was pva'ed.
Can i use Zinsser Gardz on the pva section prior to painting?
Please sont say i have to clean the whole area down😭
The pva was thinned down 50/50 with water.
Please helppppppp
Why did they tell them that... And why did the customer do it?
I'd do a light nib over the plaster to knock and bits off. Gardz it. Then a slightly thinner emulsion coat before doing and fine filling. Then sand again. Spot prime the bits if needed. remember, two thinner coats are better than one thick one.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator thank you so much for the help.
The customer think he knows it all so had it PVA prior to hanging wallpaper.
Unfortunately he passed away recently so I've been asked by family to paint the walls to sell the house to keep it not to personal .
I now always pass this on this video to people about painting new plaster.
And now I needed your expert advice
Thanks again 👍
strip the wallpaper, the pva on it will make it horrid underneath. Let it dry, fill sand over and gardz it.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator sorry my bad description. There is no wallpaper on. That was the plan.
All I want to do is prime over the diluted PVA that's been applied already.
The walls was just newly plastered walls which was Pva'ed half way.
One more question if you can help.
With the wall only being half way PVA. I won't know where the PVA wasn't applied on new plaster precisely. Can just roughly see where it is and obviously wasn't applied with a prefect straight line so to speak.
So can I apply Zinsser gardz on the bare plaster . Just pass the half way mark If that makes sense.
The rest of the new plaster I will obviously prepare the correct way.
Thanks
@@eltwilliams1116 I get ya.
Yes. Gardz over the PVA.
You could Gardz the new plaster, but it's a bit over kill on a new surface.
Ive just spent the last 3 days peeling paint off my sons wall.. sander did noting.. i presume it was sealed with PVA, absolute nightmare
More than likely. Get what you can off, sand best you can. A coat on of gardz will help bring it back to life .. or line them.
How did you get on with the corners and edges? Im struggling
@@melinmove hi. In what way
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator I've got the majority of it off, but it's all hard in the corners and won't budge. I think i need a heat gun to get it off, as a sander won't fit
@@melinmove sand it and put Gardz over it if there's still some about
I feel your pain Phil from here.
Best to use a cheep emulsion well watered down 5 water to 1 of the cheep mat emulsion this will soak into the fresh plaster , and then when dry another coat of cheep emulsion , this time not watered down . The plastered wall is now ready for your chosen paint . I would use 2 coats for a nice finish.
Correct. But there are now better barr plaster primer paints out there.
The problem you can get with cheap contact emulsion (we call it false opacity paint, as it's very chalky and looks to cover on one... But spray it with water and it turn a grey colour and reverts back to a soft chalk paint and wipes off)
If you put better quality paints over it, the moisture in that paint reacts with the cheap contact emulsion, activating it again.. then it trust to expel the moisture in it.. trying to breath itnout through the better paint you've applied... That's when you see little 'moons' /bubbles on a surface that don't pop and disappear.
Have you seen those before?
A prime example we had years ago... Wash coated with thinned down Eclipse... Ready for two coats of F&B modern emulsion.. bubbles formed.
Spoke with technical department of f&b and said it was the contact Matt paint causing the problem.
Since we've moved away from cheap contact paints and gone to Optiva primer or No Nonsense Bare plaster primer... It's not happened.
Using cheep watered down emulsion is a bad idea.
Ask me how I know it. I did that after watching loads of youtube videos of people doing it. I thought it's cheap so I'd give it a try.
Bought a tub of Leyland trade matt, watered it down painted on bare plaster and then painted over with dulux matt.
The problem now is the surface is very weak and if you put a ding on it or stick a masking tape the paint will then peel off and you can see that white chalky "mist coat" rubbish underneath which clearly has very poor adhesion with paint.
Just use dedicated products for it. I guess here it's a special primer paints. In Europe we were using Ceresit CT17 which is a really good primer but no idea why people aren't using these german products here. You can buy it but it'll cost you an arm and a leg (which isn't it's normal price in Europe)
Should use sbr it's far better and not activated by water
I wouldn't, it's another product for the builder and renderer/plaster to put in their sand/plaster mix.
It's not a decorating product
I was gonna say sbr don’t like being painted over very much. I use it for other applications such as in render and plaster prep etc
@@MarcGray1990 and that's it's ideal use.
It’s all about variables
Been using pva for years on new home construction
Never a problem
It’s variables
Different places and substrates….
Using it on what?
Maybe use pva on drywall/Sheetrock with joint compound not plaster.
What do the British call their wallboards for plaster? Is it the same wallboard for joint compound? Plastering seems more popular in England than the U.S.
@@YaBoiKi plaster board sheets .. then a few millimetre skim of plaster over it to bring it to a finish.
It's not good to be painting over PVA though.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator
It seems in England pva is a glue or adhesive. In the u.s. we use pva as a primer over drywall and over joint compound. We “ tape and mud” the joints not the entire wall like plastering.
@@YaBoiKi it does. What do you put on the plaster board that gives it that slight bobble texture?
I just use SBR now. Never had a painter moan about PVA peeling before.
SBR still a builder and plaster product though. Not good for painting over.
Pva has to be used when marrying in existing surfaces to create a bond for the plaster otherwise it will delaminate from the surface plus that paint is probably a silk paint or bathroom paint which has no suction atall which is why this is happening , sounds like your having a dig at plasterers I don’t know why anyone would pva before paint that’s beyond me there’s a process to plastering and a process to paint for me a fine fill and a light rub down with a fine 180 grade jobs a Gooden or pregrit due to low suction background plaster the whole wall nice and fresh for the decorator 🤷🏼♂️
There's a clue in the name PVA poly vinyl acetate, never use a vinyl for sealing. 😒😒😒😕
How is PVA different than vinyl in a paint then?
Hate it when plasterer’s splash pva , hate it with a passion 😡
Lol! Ain't nobody going to sand walls with an orbital sander
Like a Mirka :)
Thank god there is a painter decorater on the Internet that knows what there talking about..... Any one doing DIY listen to Phill .... There is a lot of poor information on the Internet concerning painting Decorating ...
Thanks.... share and share some more ;)
I dont use pva at all its crap
PVA it first lol helps the paint stick
I'm only joking. The manufacturer tells you on the back of the tin.
@@losttheplot26 no it dosnt
Only use SBR instead of PVA.
For building and plastering work.... It's not a decorator product to be used with paint.
Lots of products by Zinsser are more appropriate….. but few want to spend the 💷
Hello Phil. PVA is the Devils juice! Over the last 40 odd years of being on the brush, I've seen no end of crap that PVA has caused, including people that that think that putting it in wallpaper paste makes the paste better 🥵adding it to paints for the same reasons, coating new fresh plaster with it! The list goes on! When you ask folk why they are using a Woodworking adhesive as any kind of a primer / sealer, you get some strange looks and answers, as after all, PVA is a woodworking glue, have a look at Evo stick Resin "W", it's PVA!
Unibond is my other pet hate! Same dam stuff!
We know, those who know.. know. For everyone else they justify it to themselves they've been using it years with no problems.
PVA isn't alkali resisting, so shouldn't be put on bare plaster.
Painting over it causes problems.
Why put it in paste??
Just buy ready mix tub paste... You can thin that to the consistency you need..... You wouldn't put that on new plaster and paint over it lol.
If YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR DOIN PVA is a problem...for 1 you don't sand the pva with a DA...I've used PVA the last 10yrs I'm in business on my own and NEVER EVER NEVER 😂 had a call back from"PVA" issues.
This is a joke IMO
Do you put PVA on bare plaster surfaces though? And you remember what they taught you at college about PVA not being alkaline Resisting, and plaster surfaces are an alkaline surface?
I’m a plasterer and decorator, and I’ve never tried and wouldn’t try using pva to seal. I know the brothers do, and seemingly they’ve had no issues which is fair enough, but I’ve never had the guts to risk it. I just seal with either bare plaster paint or bullseye 123. With regards to the plastering, I do a pissy coat to seal then a neat coat of pva, never had it fail me. The plasterers in this vid were very sloppy with their pva’ing
Also that is shocking patching
it looks like they were trying to get their thin featherd out plaster to bond with the paint coating they were patching onto. Sometimes when the plaster is featherd on too fine onto the existing paintwork and you roll onto it with paint it flakes off onto the roller
@@utubeape I typically don’t patch. Easier to just do the wall or whole section. Regardless, they’ve done a shit job of that patching
Didn't help the cable protector was almost surface flush lol
I had to skim the edge best I could.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator I always say to my clients who want patch plastering doing that most likely the decorator (be it myself or if they get someone else in) will have to give the edge a bit of a sand or a bit of filler in places. Only a few times have I managed to completely loose the join with no additional work
Im not a fan of PVA. Trying to talk my boss out of using it on his new house; to no avail. If its not alkiline resistant, then why would it ever be used on new drywall, its always mudded. What are they thinking, just use it on the drywall & not the mud 😂.
Dry wall as in plaster board?
No idea, it doesn't go well under paint
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator standard usa drywall, taped seams with joint compound. It's the go to primer for most new constructions.. I guess that is different than European plaster.
@@jeremyr7147 you don't skim over the plaster board like we do with plaster.. which is alkali .. PVA isn't alkali resisting.. so reacts to the plaster surface over time.
FlaKy Paint? Sorry Phil you join a bunch of flacky BRITs who want to engraciate them selves to the makers of "stop paint flake' products. These products are simply watered down PVA supplied at exorbidant prices.
As a builder/ woodworker/ renovator , I have used PVA wood glue for over 50 years. Even to increase concrete strength!
The example you show where you simply peel some crap off the the ceiling, only shows SOMETHING that has not hardended or stuck to a surface that is probably greasy.
I have recently used PVA and pinned down some flacky areas, it was set and hard in 2 hours, a light coat of gyprock mud, set and sanded in 24 hours . JOB done!
as said, PVA is for builders/plasters and joiners.. school teachers with pasta shapes.... not painters. read the comments below from ppl.
PVA isn't a product for Bare plaster surfaces to paint on.. nor is it for exterior use.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator So let me get this straight, they used PVA on non-painted walls, if so my question is why. The only time I would use PVA would be on painted walls that I have to put mud on, since mud really doesn't want to stick to paint even after it's roughed up. but it sounds like you know this.
it kind of looks like the walls were painted hence the PVA but it also looks like they went a little crazy with it.
@@johnflynn6140 the plasterer patched in areas and back primed with PVA (like they do) but got PVA over more off the face surfaces, meaning it made it hard work for painting.
PVA should not be put on bare plaster prior to painting.
NEVER USE PVA ON ANYTHING YOU WANT TO PAINT !!! Simple really.
and yet people still think it's a thing
Im confused how you screw up priming/painting. You must not do it very often
We use pva on literally every single freshly mudded dry wall job we do. Its the only way to go. That wall looks like it has already been coated with somthing being the reason why its pealing.
UK. Bare plaster is alkali based and PVA isn't alkali resisting, that's why it reacts and comes away.
Hence on new bare plaster you need to seal/wash coat it with alkali resisting primer/paint.
Emulsion is one product that is Alkali resisting. Hence why you do a thinned down wash coat with it.
PVA, shouldn't be used.
PVA even on a painted surface causes problems when painting over it too.
Wallpaper paste, is not the same as PVA.
ZINSSER Gardz... Is not PVA.
You prolly mean like a valspar pva? Use it on every job too just fine
Thank you...this is a job that they truly don't know what happened prior...this isn't a PVA issue 😂
PVA is for bare/new drywall jobs,not contaminated patch work
Collage, I went there in 1987
for City & Guilds?
That comment reminds of Porridge. I read a book once. Green, it was.
In the wrong hands its a disaster. But it has it uses .
Not for painting :)
Pva is a primer not a sealer. Of course if you sand it, it will peel off LMAO. What does a "decorator" do anyways?
and you don't use it on bare plaster... or paint over it.. its still a glue at the end of the day
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator I guess millions of people are wrong just because you don't like a product.
@@jeremylunning654 there's clearly a lot who
1. Never went to college for p&D
2. Never been taught correctly
3. Don't realise you don't put PVA on an alkaline surface as PVA isn't an Alkali resisting product.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator you're right, you clearly know more than an entire industry the uses, produces and approves the use of a product! You are clearly smarter than an entire industry given that you are a fancy painter and all. You just know sooooo much more than the chemical engineers of the industry!
@@jeremylunning654 thank you .
Dr Google is very helpful for those who don't know.
Sherwin williams pva primer litterly says on its label not to use on plaster. Its only recommended for drywall. Plaster only needs a mist coat before painting. One would think a "painter /designer" who is smarter than a plasterer would know this! Lol!
pva has no place for the painter
@@ProfessionalPainterDecoratorwhats pva for them?
@@JustinMentionedIt not for putting on alkaline surfaces.... Or putting into paint.
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator what’s consider an acidic surface ?
@@JustinMentionedIt as the in the difference between acidic and alkaline?
As it's to do with pH levels.
You must have done a poor job applying or done zero prep work because Ive never had PVA do that. Also, what paint/primer doesn't get removed from sanding? We must not have the indestructible paint here in the US...
You are one of those freaks using an orbital sander to sand drywall mud. You must be using your professional decorating skills to cover that up with a mirror or something
Did you not watch and listen to the video?
@@ProfessionalPainterDecorator Did you read my comment?
@@scrowtumbus7522 yeah
But clearly you've not listened to any of the video as to what's happened. And why I did the video.
And what the hell is dry wall mud?
Great advice ,this mate ,you also find some plasterers think there painters as well with the advice they give out ,please stick to plastering,and leave the painting to pro painters ,it boils my piss when I hear if you can piss you can paint ,
I keep saying it.... Everyone Can Paint, Not Everyone Should!
At last the truth about pva , , jf
See you next week ;)
Rubbish!
Only use on raw new drywall not to prime over a paint
Or bare plaster like we have in the UK
Plasterers are the bane of my working existence. Talk about one trade that is going downhill fast. I'm doing good work for good money in the south-east of England, but my word the amount of times I go to some new work and the plasterers have been in - they give up around sockets, the give up around windows, reveals, any 'tricky' areas, they don't clean up, they don't unscrew sockets and leave fat edges everywhere, they leave snots on the floor, splashes of whatever shit they have been using, even ripples in the effing finish. 'Finish' - Ha! I've taken to skimming over walls and other areas myself with Toupret Joint & Skim then sanding it back with the Mirka. Honestly there are some hopeless bastards about, and they're usually the first blokes to talk themselves up down the pub.
All the pro plaster guys are long gone its best spraying or rolling it on nowadays easier for us deccys less prep.