Asgard Isn't Interesting
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 06. 2024
- Hey! You can get Persona 3: Reload here - gsght.com/c/kdhqdw
Kyle talks about writing, and also still superheroes forever! Thank you for watching and supporting, let me know if you found this format interesting in the comments. I'd love to hear your thoughts!
Help us get to $4k on Patreon - / doormonster
Download "Living Forever" by JP De Ovando:
www.newgrounds.com/audio/list...
#Persona3Reload #Sponsored
----- ------- ------------
WATCH MORE STUFF
****************************
Door Monster Studio: tinyurl.com/y62337xj
Door Monster Podcasts: tinyurl.com/y55gsn66
Live Streams: / doormonstertv
JOIN THE COMMUNITY
****************************
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / doormonster
Reddit: / doormonster
Instagram: / doormonster
SUPPORT THE CHANNEL
****************************
Patreon: / doormonster
CZcams: / @doormonster
GET SOME MERCH
****************************
DFTBA: store.dftba.com/collections/d... - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Asgard is not a place, it's a people. This is true on so many levels. If we don't care about the people, we don't care about the place.
Except that the place literally contained all the cultural works of the people, from their architecture to their writings to works of art.
A culture is both the place and the people.
@@LordVader1094 That is a good point- So what is their Culture? I fell off the MCU so I haven't seen all the films, do they ever provide context for anything about Asgard's culture? Outside of Thor liking drinking and violence? Because that is what is missing there, anything to make the place more then the modern version of the background art in old films like the Wizard of oz- there to make the world feel bigger then the Stage it is actually taking place on, but obviously absent any depth if examined at all.
This guy gets it.
And then they killed all the people because we didn't care about them
America is not a place; it's a people.
And those people are being replaced.
I like how Kyle proved his point with the video itself.
You establish a clear precedent of introducing regular examples, and THEN you throw in the ad.
Tbh Marvel Asgard and DC Themyscira can be probably covered under same umbrella. The main problem is that both companies don't want to worldbuild new "hubs" for stories and just rely on "NYC, but not NYC".
When I think of MCU Asgard you know what comes to mind? Cool aerial shots that really just amount to a bunch of meaningless gold buildings, a big stony room with a throne, and the rainbow bridge. I have the strongest emotional connection to the rainbow bridge, which really says something.
It just doesn't feel like a city, let alone an world. It just doesn't feel lived in. It feels like a handful of set pieces.
@@rosscalhoun3389 Which is crazy, because with three Thor films, one of which entirely focused around destroying Asgard, you'd think they'd have made us care about both Asgard and the people who inhabit it. Yet they failed at both.
@@LordVader1094 Yeah, Asgard got destroyed and it really felt like "okay, so?"
ahh, the only place on Yggdrasil with proper public transport
@@rosscalhoun3389 All of those big shots also suffer from what I call "concept art syndrome" : they look like they were built from scratch by a designer all at once (well, they were, out of universe). Real places aren't like that. Things build over time, different styles, some buildings that aren't meant to be aesthetically pleasing... It's just never this perfect.
The thing about the cantina scene is that the audience is *supposed* to feel uncomfortable and like an outsider (because Luke is), and it's also supposed to show that the main character isn't the center of the universe. Life goes on in the Star Wars universe even when we aren't watching. Which made the remasters even worse, with all the sudden song and dance routines and aliens trying to get our attention.
What I find kind of interesting is that Star Wars actually makes the very same thing that breaks Asgard: If something isn’t explained, it creates the impression that it isn't interesting or important.
When we first get to Mos Eisley there's clearly a bunch of questions we as the audience COULD have, first and foremost "Why are there all these strange aliens"
And the fact that no one bothers to explain it or even mention it actually helps drive home the idea that this is something we're not SUPPOSED to wonder about. The aliens are just there, and thir existence is boring and uninteresting in the context of the Star Wars universe and for the people in it.
The problem with asgard is that were actually supposed to care about all these new people and concepts, but it falls flat for the exact same reason that the ordinariness of the aliens in the Cantina works out.
Someone else in the comments had a great point on that. Before entering the Cantina, Obi Wan tells Luke that it's a dangerous place. This completely changes the scene. When you know that you are walking into a shady bar full of dodgy criminal types, then you expect to see things you don't understand, and you know that you should definitely NOT comment on it.
@@Damogen I believe his exact words are that the cantina is a "wretched hive of scum and villainy"
It doesn't just portray it as something dangerous, but somewhere they should NOT be, because they're the heroes of the story
the first Star Wars movie does that really well, it talks about Clone Wars, a Tosche Station, a Kessel Run, Parsecs etc., all things that we don't really know what they are at this point in time (and for decades for most of these things). These added details really enhance the world-building and give us a feeling of a world lived in that also exists outside of the story we follow. I think that's the issue with Asgard. not the not explaining, but mostly the feeling that it is not really a place that people inhabit living their own stories, just some set decoration for what we are currently watching.
As an Australian, I thank you for the fire clarification.
This is part of makes the first season of the revival of Doctor Who work so brilliantly. Russell T Davies went out of his way to ensure that every single story no matter how far flung somehow related back to humanity and earth, which is part of what made those early stories tense and dramatic and compelling but also provided so much of the heart and emotional core of the show
This is also why the companions are so important in Doctor Who.
@@YMasterS I think companions are important, but not necessarily for that reason. Pretty much everywhere the Doctor goes, they will be new to the place as well, or at least somewhat unfamiliar, so we'll still be learning alongside them. Companions make that easier, but I don't think an audience insert is necessary if you have a good writer.
@danochy5522 it's not they as an audience stand in that matters most, It's they as a grounding to the wild scifi fantasy elements.
There's also what Kyle was talking about in us getting to see the difference in The Doctor's reaction to things compared to the companion's. The companion finding something wondrous or strange is natural and draws attention to it; The Doctor finding it so means something is wrong or strange.
@@YMasterS Ok, that's very true. But I still think they can get away without a companion/companion stand-in if the writing's good enough. Take The Waters of Mars or Midnight for example. There, the Doctor is the one expressing wonder at both settings despite having some knowledge of them already.
Mostly, I'm saying this because I don't think the companion needs to be less knowledgeable than the Doctor, necessarily. Like Romana for example (not sure about your own familiarity with the show, but she's a Time Lord companion) works remarkably well as a companion, despite approaching scenarios from place as the Doctor, albeit with less experience time travelling.
But regardless, I agree that companions are definitely a useful tool in establishing these senses of familiarity, as you say, and maybe I'm just being slightly (but unintentionally) pedantic.
@danochy5522 Waters of Mars was the example I've been thinking of, as well. Didn't need a companion, and it was an excellent episode because of the writing. That said, I wonder if the concept would have worked if it had been an alien race on a fictional world, rather than near future humans on Mars.
I've only seen a couple of episodes with Ramana, and they were also stories with other humans. I assume there were other stories without humans during her run, so I'm guessing the writing took advantage of the age gap between her and the doctor to help with the necessary exposition, but as you say that still wouldn't necessarily ground the show for the audience.
I think you have a great point, and it might be a part of why the Isekai genre blew up so quickly, by it's nature they tend to be stories that open with a character struggling and then learning about a new world, super condensed storytelling.
same with amnesiac protagonists
Although the majority of those Isekai worlds also have no interesting lore or anything to grab you with, just a handful of characters.
@@LordVader1094they tend to have a semi- decent concept and then the vast majority fail to deliver. The odd gem does show up.
@@Sir_L.WallaceWorse still are those that have an interesting concept and good start and then just crash down to basic op main character that is so cool and awesome and badass and has a harem and blablabla. I am still salty about this isekai that started with the concept of: trapped in the depth of a dungeon with monsters 60 level higher than you and trying everything in your power to survive, no matter the price devolving into a main character that one shot everything
I would argue that's part of the familiarity thing Kyle was talking about. If someone is sent to some JRPG-esque fantasy world and we the audience have already seen 50 isekai just like it, we know what the world is like even if we are given no lore whatsoever.
I'd add that this is why Asgard feels so much better when both Thor and Loki are onscreen together. Alone, they're alien gods over a thousand years old doing... stuff... but the moment you put them together and suddenly it's a familiar sibling dynamic. Thor standing in the giant gold throne room? Not interesting. Thor and Loki bickering while their scheme falls apart? Much, much better, even though we're smashing through the city on a Dark Elf warship.
Something that you missed was that come context is at least given, like in the case of Luke going to the Mos Eisly Cantina. Luke doesnt know the area but Obi Wan does. He explains its dangerous, it tells Luke before going in its a rough kind of establishment so when you get the shot of all those aliens the designs plus what Ben has told Luke gives an added air of unfamiliarity and intrigue to the place that is a hub for the underworld of the city.
Then when obi wan cuts off a guys hand and barely anyone blinks it goes to confirm how rough of a place it really is.
honestly, one of the better mid-video CZcams add introductions. no long rambling introduction that sounds like it will connect to the the main idea but then doesn't. Just introduction, add, done. I didn't know I would appreciate that as much as I did.
What you are talking about with Luke in the cantina I've always known as the "Everyman", "Audience Stand-in", or "Dr. Watson" (Dr. Watson being the guy Sherlock explain everything to so that the audience/reader can hear it). I never thought of this in terms of locations and settings but it makes absolute sense. Wonderful!
Dr Watson is different. He is a lens to let the audience understand, but he's also a way to maintain separation between the reader and the character of Holmes, allowing Holmes mystique to remain intact even after we've read a lot about him.
Watson was this idea done right, Grand Admiral Paleon was it done wrong, as his purpose was to maintain Thrawn's mystique, but Zahn also used him to have an excuse to not have to explain how Thrawn knew what he knew.
*To add to the discourse, about writing something that is recognizable, creating something that is inspired by a well known work also works.*
With Lord of the Rings as the icon of the fantasy genre and so many other works that implement similar concepts, you can easily introduce elves to your story and most people (at least those with basic knowledge of the fantasy genre) don't even need being told they are long lived.
*Frieren: Beyond Journey's End,* a currently airing anime that became extremely popular, *has it's premise being "How does an elf deal with the passage of time and with outliving all the people around them?" and follows her on that journey.* Before even watching episode 1, people can immediately comprehend the concept of the story in their minds because the concept of elves is very familiar.
It may not exist, but the concept of elves became to the fantasy genre something even more recognizable than real life.
I remember hearing writing advice a few years ago that was similar, being basically:
Have ordinary people in alien environments, or alien people in ordinary environments, but don't try and put alien people in alien environments, cos the audience won't have any grounding in reality.
I'm pretty sure wind in the willow was a good example of this.
Ironically, my first example of this alien people in alien environment was in an american football movie, where a guy died cos he had to play football instead of recover from getting hit by a car which was such a completely alien morality that I just could not empathise with the character or the movie, and not being familiar with 1960s or whatever america meant the world was just kind of weird and unknown, so the whole movie was just something I was completely lost in myself.
You could have an alien person on an alien planet. The issue isn’t “I can’t relate because not human”. There’s plenty of animated movies/shorts where inanimate objects interact with other inanimate objects and makes you feel something.
All you need to do is have them go through something relatable like: struggle (as mentioned), not conforming to culture, going through puberty, dealing with becoming independent, handling death of a loved one, being thrust into a situation, and so on. Any sort of scenario where the protagonist conflicts with he status quo of that environment gives the opportunity to convey information to the audience. But also, not everything has to be outright explained. If it’s written consistently or has a noticeable pattern, people can pick up on it. The worst way to handle it is having lore dumps, because it’s virtually guaranteed people will check out and forget it anyway. Some lore explanation is fine, but if that info is important it should be something that affects the protagonist (or some key characters) to give people a reason to retain it. That info then has use outside of being flavour text.
@@mrshmuga9I would say that "alien" doesn't mean "non-human," but instead means "strange or unfamiliar." You can have strange things in familiar places, or familiar things in strange places, but if you have strange things in strange places, then the audience doesn't have a reference for what's supposed to be normal for the setting.
This really helped recontextualize an issue I've been having with a story I've been working on. Thanks a million!
i, for one, am embracing the Door Monster Video Essay Arc
Kyle’s house not being on fire is the least realistic part of this video
I love this the same way i love OSP's trope talks. Keep it going!
Othersyde Phil? Darksyde Phil's evil twin that is actually the good twin because DSP is terrible?
@@Ozymandias2x Overly Sarcastic Productions with Blue and Red xD
4:37 Okay, I'm so glad you said something about how the main characters in Valerian look like siblings but apparently weren't because it always bothered me.
its the white person game where you guess if they're dating or siblings
@@CanyonF why bring up race for no reason?
its funny@@ShinyWasTakenTwice
@@CanyonFYou could say that about any race tho because phenotypes look very similar lol
Hey, this was great! I don't usually find CZcams writing advice videos helpful (or tonally my thing), but this was just a chill dude who actually knows how difficult it is to make stuff talking about how to make stuff better, and it was awesome. I hadn't thought about this in this kind of way before, and will probably start invoking, "Asgard isn't interesting," when I need a shortcut to this concept.
Also, btw, thank you for doing a writing advice vid where you: Acknowledge repetition / "copying" other stories isn't bad, advocate for necessary / interesting exposition (because telling people things is storytelling), and don't just go, "Ugh, this thing that took hundreds of people multiple years of their lives to make is bad," hahaha. CZcams needs more chill content creators like you protecting its streets by night. Except actually, don't, get some SLEEP. Listen to your wife!
your comment about being able to navigate a fantasy world really resonated with me. I havent got a clue about what asgard looks like geographically, where are the major rivers, where does there food come from, etc. But in game of thrones they make sure you know the capitals & general vibes for each of the seven kingdoms by season 2.
With GoT a lot of the stuff going on is related to those co-dependencies between places and people so it needs to be detailed to the reader/watcher. I don't have any experience with MCU but Asgard seems to be just a big gold city for people to stand in grand halls and talk. The rest of the planet(?) doesn't factor in to anything.
Your eyes look dead! Hope your having a wonderful Christmas while the world outside burns. You rock!
He hasn’t slept in 4 days
@@panicbanana1841 wow he's really prepping for the sleep challenge video.
Tbh I think he's leaning into the "Kyle doesn't sleep" meme and using makeup to make his eyes seem worse
Now THIS is the sorta video I love, idk why but I just love hearing you talk about film. I specifically remember one behind the scenes where you talked about using blender for set extensions. This captures that vibe and brings it to a new level. Please don't stop!
You mention the feeling of "If you know it, everyone else probably does as well." I'm not one of the other comment section geniuses, this is really insightful to me! It really pieces together what exactly didn't click with Asgard for me, and was super engaging throughout. I loved the examples you used as well.
I would love to hear more of your observations! Glad you’re getting more support on Patreon, you and the door monster crew deserve it so much
This is the first ad I’ve seen for Persona 3 that actually made me want to play the game! Thanks Kyle!
Gosh, I followed you guys about 6 years ago for fun lil D&D content (I regularly rewatch Diplomacy) and kinda tune in an out over the years. I can only imagine how hard it's been to make content online for 10 years! Just wanted to say I enjoyed this video, hope to see more!
Re: you making videos about things that “of course people know about”
I think that these videos are helpful even to people who DO already know, as this content gives the viewer another perspective on the matter or even a way to put something they already felt into words.
Honestly, for me, Asgard is the only place in the MCU that I feel like I still have an understanding of.
I haven’t watched a Marvel movie since the first Black Panther, and I haven’t gotten back into them because I feel like I need to know a textbook of other information in order to know what’s happening in this new movie.
The last time I saw Asgard, it was the place that Thor and Loki came from, and that was it. It was a anchored base for me to stand on and say “ok, I understand this.”
Love the video(s), keep up the great work. 👍
Very fluid transition to an ad. 10/10
This was super helpful, thank you so much for this wonderful video!!
This is extremely good. Please make more!
So interesting. Much essay. You're so right. (I have watched 10 seconds)
relatable
20 seconds in. I agree.
That sleep fake out at the end was genius. You didn't have to go there, but you did.
Yup, he definitely got me for a sec
Excellent video. And thanks. I plan on one day trying my hand at writing and you gave really great advice and food for thought.
Congrats on the sponsorship!
this lesson taught me alot more about world building that i thought it would
I absolutely love this. I'm not a writer but I love talking about writing and analysing stories so this is 100% my jam.
I really love these new long form videos.
Long form content and skits? Kyle, you spoil us!
This was cool, I’m super down for videos and thoughts and discussions about writing (especially since I’ve always enjoyed the writing in your videos/stories!) I like this perspective - fantasy settings can be the coolest thing ever but it’s hard to get invested if we don’t have something relatable to grab on to. This also reminded me of Ad Astra - I wanted to like that movie so much because of the settings but the main character had no emotional reaction to anything and I just couldn’t get invested in it. (something something there was a reason he didn’t have emotions or whatever, doesn’t make me relate any more for there to be a reason ha)
I also love that you were able to have this discussion without doing some form of calling the Asgard movies “bad,” I have been really into them lately and am so used to seeing people be like “this one thing could have been better SO THE WHOLE THING IS TRASH,” ty for not doing that :D
This was extremely informative and I both learned a lot and enjoyed it quite a bit.
Bro, you and this channel are my favorites on youtube
I didn't follow you for this content, but I really enjoy this kind of content, so I'm all for it! Keep it coming :)
Thanks for the Persona ad, I just woke up and forgot I had it preloaded.
OH MY GOSH I needed this! I have notebooks full of characters and backgrounds that I've been trying to put together into a story for a long time, but I couldn't figure out where to start. Now I know that I need to start in Asgard so nobody reads it when I'm done.
I love any insights you're willing to share on writing. Always looking to improve for my dnd games.
I love this! I'm not actually a writer, but I love the concept for story telling. Thanks for sharing
The recent Dune film is an interesting case study on this. Arrakis has a perspective character in Paul in a big way, but the other worlds shown (the Imperial planet, the Harkonnen and Atreidis homeworlds), are still pretty weird and don't get that direct audience stand-in perspective. It works, though. We're given enough information in the right order to keep a handle on what's going on (or, more often, shown something mysterious and then given the answer to the mystery shortly afterwards in a satisfying way) and strong, subtle performances that make the stakes and relationships understandable even if the worldbuilding is pretty opaque. It works. I think having a perspective character is one way to unravel the knot, but it's not the only one, and it doesn't always work. Jupiter Ascending has a perspective character and it's *hot dogshit*.
I would like to real quick add that Caladan (the Atredies home world) is meant to act as a stand in for our world, and Paul's role as a "perspective character" is to show his reaction from leaving a "Normal" world to go to a barren wasteland. Additionally in the books Selusa Secundus, and Gedi Prime have their own perspective charaters (at some point). The Barron Harkonnen and his nephew are meant to act as twisted counterparts to Leto and Paul, even their world Gedi Prime is described similarly to Caladan but more corrupted. Selusa Secundus is the only planet that doesn't really get a "perspective character" until a later book (mostly due to the fact that Selusa is never visited until Children of Dune).
I’m reading the Dune series now, and Selusa Secundus is always and forever Second Salsa in my brain.
It was so interesting to listen and I don't even into superhero stuff. Thank you Kyle, really hope we can see even more curious takes like this in future:)
I actually really did enjoy this quite a bit.
It’s a very excellent breakdown of a trend that’s long dissatisfied me in novels I’ve read, but had difficulty putting words to various points as to exactly why.
Let's goooo, new door monster video just dropped
Enjoying the long form content!
I appreciate this insight and it makes a ton of sense. Thank you and yes, I would like to hear more.
Very interesting! Keep up the good work!
That was the best ad lead-in I've ever seen.
Kyle is one of the few people that make me not wanna skip the ad.
This was a really good video. I really respect your work ethic and your opinions on movies, TV shows, etc (though I don't always agree with them). I would be really interested to hear further discussions and breakdowns of the MCU or other franchises along this line. Thank you again for your hard work.
Loved the vid!
I love this. I like this free form style of video
Hey Kyle! I just wanted to let you know that I really like this loose lightly edited style of content, as well as the slightly unhinged BDG energy videos, keep it up!
Thanks, I could never quite put my finger on the problem with certain fantasy or sci-fi locations, and you explain it so clearly!
This was great, reminds me of Trope Talks on OSP.
THANK YOU
I like thinking about how stories work, you make a good point that characters in a strange world are most relatable when they are learning about that world along with the audience.
I think this has more to mine then tier lists. I would be happy with more writing discussion.
Excellent points all around! I don't write, but I GM RPGs a lot and I'm often trying to work around the same problem, except that my audience can reach in and interact with Asgard.
That is a great assessment, Kyle
Great video, very insightful, concise and casual. I learned the same thing I could have learned in a 40 minute video essay in a 10 minute conversation.
Hey Kyle, I’ve been watching your videos since middle school and now I’m about to graduate. I used to watch nearly every single upload, but unfortunately now that I’m older, I don’t always have the time, but I still love the shenanigans when I do. I’ve always tried to show your videos to friends but I never know how to describe Door Monster. None of this makes any sense, and I love it. I’ve been loving this new series btw. It’s been funny to watch you, your friends, and this channel change over the years. That being said, please make sure you’re taking care of yourself buddy. Hope you slept after posting this.
To anyone who is reading this, how would you describe Door Monster?
I haven’t thought about it this way, but I agree with your analysis. I’ve definitely noticed the phenomenon you’re talking about, but I never put my finger on what causes it!
Also, I enjoyed this style of video!
I've never thought of it like that. Interesting
Would love to hear your takes on writing comedy bits since your channel is an absolute treasure trove of them. On a side note, where's your accent from in the US? There's another youtuber that sounds a lot like you and I'm wondering if you're just from the same place.
This was helpful, and I did like it!
Great video, keep up this content
Better analogy, "I have ice cream." "Oh you should try this frozen custard."
Doormonster getting sponsored by Persona? Wow!
Great Video btw.
I'm a big fan of this format and in fact it's why I'm now a patreon patron. The people want more Kyle comics unraveled!
Please take care of yourself anyways even if you arent at 4k yet dude. You deserve it
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a great SciFi that doesn't take you out, probably cause the main character is just as confused as us. x3
I love people taking in depth looks at stuff that doesn't matter at first glance then there's actually miles worth of meaningful stuff
I have to say for Valerian: The screenplay is gorgeous. I absolutely love the depiction of the City of a Thousand Planets - there is so much going on, so much hinted at. I also love the scene in that extra-dimensional marketplace That's just astonishing. Unfortunately and I can't tell if it was the actors or the direction - the acting is rather bland. Which is unfortunate. It had the colors and the detail from the 5th Element - but alas not the energy.
But the single best thing from this movie is the intro. With the space station growing the - peaceful scenes of hostile world powers shaking hands in space, the peaceful first contacts and all of it to. It is one of the most powerful sci-fi scenes I've ever seen. And it's really a shame that the movie couldn't keep up to the intro.
holy shit that ad was so unexpected, truly worthy of a night shamalayan twist
Oh gosh, I remember watching Valerian. Whole lot of beautiful set pieces, not a lot of story that made sense. It absolutely had this problem. Thanks for explaining this!
Fine long form kyle. You win. To the backlog!
I’m trying to worldbuild for a dnd campaign and this was very helpful ty
I like this style of videos.
Loved this format. Found your points insightful.
And since I skipped on all Thor movies all of your examples were fresh for me.
“But mostly I just pay attention to things that don’t matter” is going on my resume
Please man, I love your other stuff, but I love this stuff too! You should make more of these. Hell, I would love a whole series of these little rules you follow, as the presentation was so great! Especially since I was gonna come down hard on you about Asgard being awesome! But nah, the movie Asgard does suck and you are 100% right about why.
I never would have thought Door Monster would get sponsored by Atlus for Persona 3! This is crazy!
"Experimenting with long-form content." Yes. More of this, please!
That's a weird Christmas-tree-shaped window in the background.
8:43 "You wanna know how I got these scars?"
Great video
I have only watched a little too, but I already love this.
Not a writer and wouldn't call myself a marvel fan but this was very enlightening! I'm really enjoying the long form content :)
Side note on the video.. when putting in a PIP, white is a "little" bright on modern monitors. Consider like a dark gray or something lol
Also, good video! (I'm 12 mins in)
As a non writer, I had no idea about these things, thank you for this :)
This feels like it's actually really good writing advice. I hear all kinds of advice about world building and storytelling, but rarely how to get people to CARE about your world building