UPDATED - IT'S NOT WORKING = $650+ Lie Nielsen Vs $385 Veritas Shooting Plane Review and Comparison
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- READ PINNED COMMENT and SEE BELOW FOR AN UPDATE! In this video I review and compare the Lie Nielsen no 51 Shooting plane ($650 + tax + ship) vs the Veritas Shooting Plane ($385+tax). Biggest difference, besides price is the bed angle. LN is a standard bevel down and Veritas is a low angle bevel up.
2.16.2023 UPDATE: A rep from LN caught wind of this video and called me. This surprised me but he wanted to give me some advice on using this plane.
He and told me the issue is because I put a piece of paper between the plane and the plane fence. Because this is such a precise tool, that 4 thou matters when you're only taking a 2 thou cut. He also recommended a different hand position when using the plane, holding onto the plane, where the tote meets the body. Unfortunately, I already sold the plane, so I am unable to test this out. Please comment below if you are able to test this out and let us know how it goes!
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00:00 Intro
00:30 Specs
09:05 Specs Overview
09:46 Shooting Board Error
10:55 Fixing Error
11:33 Test Prep
12:37 Testing Veritas
13:09 Testing Lie Nielsen
16:38 Back to Veritas
17:17 Outro/Results?
2.16.2023 UPDATE: A rep from LN caught wind of this video and called me. This surprised me but he wanted to give me some advice on using this plane.
He and told me the issue is because I put a piece of paper between the plane and the plane fence. Because this is such a precise tool, that 4 thou matters when you're only taking a 2 thou cut. He also recommended a different hand position when using the plane, holding onto the plane, where the tote meets the body. Unfortunately, I already sold the plane, so I am unable to test this out. Please comment below if you are able to test this out and let us know how it goes!
UPDATE: I am still getting extremely mixed reviews on the LN Plane.
The most common answer:
- They love LN planes but this one is based on a flawed design, and they use the Veritas for shooting
Here are some of the other answers:
- that's just how the plane is, and they have the same issues
- don't use it on end grain..... (its a shooting plane.....?)
- they have it and have no issues with it
- there is a manufacturing issues with my plane
- try a back bevel/don't do a back bevel
- move the chip breaker away/move the chip breaker closer
- ect.
I just got a Lie Nielsen 51 shooting plane, and am having similar issues. I'll try some of the recommendations you have listed. It's one of my first planes, so i'm still learning how to do the setup properly. Tips appreciated :D
@kibraeldavidroell5367 oooh tbh this is gonna be a tough first-ish plane :/ it's finicky to say the least. Lol I have a few videos up that make help with the set up but nothing dedicated to this plane because I couldn't even get it to work :( if you keep having issues. Call Lie Nielsen and see if you can talk to Dineb, he is the one in the videos on their website showing how to use this plane, he can help more than I can with it :(
I resharpened both the chip breaker and blade and set the plane back up with the chip breaker about 2mm from the blade tip. So far it's been working well. i've been hand milling some madone and it's coming out smooth.@@BatCaveCreations
Was it Deneb who contacted you? He is a great guy and is a lie neilsen foundation of knowledge.
@danthechippie4439 it was and he is deff full of knowledge!
I have the Veritas shooting board and plane and love it. As you noted, very little to fuss with, give the settings a quick check before starting and you are good to go. I recently edge trimmed a 17 1/2" square chess board. Had to be careful at the start of each stroke but I was able to square it up nicely.
I’ll send you a video of my LN in action. No skipping with mine. Great video buddy🤙🏻
I love your content and the types of videos you have been producing. I have been looking for a video just like this one for a while ( comparing the two shooting planes ) since I have been thinking about which one to get. Thank you for putting these types of videos out there! Can't wait to see more!
So what's your purchasing choice???! I wonder???!
I have had similar issues, not with a LN but an old Record T5, quite a different plane. What I learned was that when I used the tote I was getting unreliable results, when I accepted that whoever designed it knew better and attached the accessory handle things came together.
Having learned this I found I could get similar results by griping the ahead of the tote in alignment with the mouth, without the handle.
Just where you see the sausage on a No9.
I have the LN plane, and get the same problem seems to work fine then it doesn’t ? It only seems to work really well when its just been sharpened ?
Excellent content. Just the sort of reviews I need.
Good video. Me, too-- a lot of trouble with the L-N No51 shooting plane. (I use with a Vogt ramped shooting board.) Truly dissappointing because all of my other L-N planes work beautifully. For this plane, I have minimally acceptable results; and, even then only after a lot of fiddling. Must sharpen the blade after only a few cuts (end-gain so . . . possibly ). Seems to work somewhat better when the frog is far forward so mouth is at minimum. Also, works better on thin stock. I cannot get good results on 3/4 thick hardwoods. I called L-N and they said try taking thinner passes, but I'm already at minimum---often the blade just skips past the wood. I wish I knew why it's so troublesome.
Thank you for sharing!! I'm hearing a TON of mixed reviews, some have the same issue you and I are having. Others have 0 issue at all other than they have to take extremely light passes and never full length shavings. It is crazy a brand that we'll known doesn't have a LA shooter yet lol
I am having the same trouble with this plane. A few good cuts, then it starts skipping. Frustrating.
The LN is based on a flawed design. Not only was the Stanley prone to breaking at the frog, they ignored their own bevel up designs which would have been much better for this type of work. The no.s 9, 164 and 62 were full sized planes that could've been converted to a good shooting plane. The 9 works but lacks the size. Veritas really came through.
The LN and Stanley frog design is completely different, they took care of the problem Stanley had
I'll always take an adjustable mouth over an adjustable frog, even the easier to adjust ones like the bedrock style. With an adjustable mouth I just find it so much more useful, as you can very easily open it up to clear chips out without needing tools or worrying about having to reset the blade or depth of cut or anything like that. Especially with the depth stop on most Veritas planes, I can quickly open it, clear it out, and close it back up in just a few seconds. Obviously, setting the mouth to avoid tearout is great too, but I'm surprised more people don't mention how easy they are to clear out (maybe I'm doing something dumb to jam my planes up so often). Anyway, great video as always. the Veritas plane might need to end up under the tree this year.
Very true! And I am the same say, deff prefer adjustable mouth vs frog.
When you get the shooting plane you will see that it doesn't really clog. The shaving basically fall out cus its on its side or launch out when your getting serious about endgrain hahaha so that may be why it's not mentioned for this plane :)
Well, I have the Lie Nielson, but haven't used it yet. I do have a Stanley 4 1/2 plane (?). I was having back lash issues with it. Mostly in the 'fine shaving one pass, then adjust for slightly heavier cut and bad chattering/dig ins/ tear out. I messed with the bottom of the frog and where it sits on the plane. That seems to have fixed that problem.
For wax on your sole, and on the track. look at Butcher's bowling alley wax. Good stuff. I might have to try out one of those tracks.
As for the 45 degree setting for a shooting board, I did take a big speed square and use it to set the miter gage on my table saw, then cut a plywood piece from that setting at 45 degrees. Perfect as near as I could tell. Then went to the shooting board, and checked it again with the big speed square. Seemed to work, but I haven't tried to make a picture frame, yet....
I heard about bowling alley wax! I'll deff check that out! A buddy made me some Bees Wax so once that's gone I'll give it a try.
The frog on this being a bedrock style shouldn't have that issue esp cus it's a $650 plane haha but I'll check it out!
Great idea ok just cutting a piece of ply from the 45!!
I was getting similar issues to what you're describing with a brand new LN51 so I read through the comments and made some tweaks. I believe my issues to be resolved at least for now as I'm able to get a smooth cut through 4/4 white oak, birch, and pine & 8/4 cherry. Here's a list of the things I changed:
- Sharpen the iron. I thought I had done it right the first time, but I should have spent more time getting rid of the factory edge. I'd also recommend sharpening to a higher angle (35 for me) to give the edge a better fighting chance into end grain. Anecdotally that helped with chipping.
- Prep the chipbreaker. I jumped straight into planing with a tight gap between the blade and the chipbreaker and that was a mistake. For one there's no need to have them be so close for shooting end grain. But also, I sharpened the chipbreaker just as if it was an iron to make sure there's absolutely no catching chips. Side note but it's really noticeable how much softer that metal is because the burr is so sticky!
- Tighten the frog screws. I gave a little extra muscle to the frog screws under the knob and to the lever cap. Nothing crazy, just tighter than they were.
- Wax your shooting board. This is kinda optional, but it allows the workpiece to slide back in front of the blade after taking a cut.
- Prioritize applying pressure towards the plane instead of into the fence with your workpiece hand. This is a bit of a balancing act but with some practice I got the hang of it.
- Check your fence squareness. Mine isn't square and it's giving me an inconsistent result depending on where I'm pushing.
Thank you! I don't have the LN any more so I'm bummed I can't try these :(
Love the content! Especially the jorgen stuff. Your audio is good in the main part, but it's washed out in the intro and outro?
Thank you! Im having fun with it!
For the intro and outro, ya... I bought a cheep camera from Amazon to get started. If this new adventure does well I'll upgrade everything
Very fair and useful review. Thank you so much!
Subscribed! I really like your content and honesty with your reviews. Thanks
Thank you!!!
I have the LN and it works well for me. Been through the video a couple times and nothing's jumping out at me as a key difference, though with the speedup it's hard to know for sure. I'm using a similar board in terms of dimensions, but without the track; can't imagine the track would make a difference here. Setup for the frog is standard bedrock, pretty much what I'd use for any bedrock plane. I keep the chipbreaker about 1/32" away from the blade, cap screw set so that adjustment isn't a struggle. I do use a Cosman Adjustar on mine, but it's otherwise stock. Blade, Charlesworth ruler lapping to 16K, 29 degree secondary bevel, 31 degree tertiary bevel. I guess the only input I could offer is that endgrain is a tough business and that blade is very good steel, so it'll take a fine edge; don't be afraid to give it one. Also, and likely preaching to the choir here, but cap screw tension can be a make or break; ensure it's not too tight or too loose.
Thank you! I deff appreciate the feedback! Been getting so many opinions. Some say, that's just how it is. Alot are saying it's an issue with the plane. I love what you are adding to the convo! It does have the ruler trick on the back, I could try a steaper angle but.... I am trading the LN for a Stanley Chute Board to go with the Stanley 51 I have. Wouldn't be able to make that trade with the veritas haha I have it for a bit longer to do another video so I may give that a shot! Thank you again. I appreciate you!
@@BatCaveCreations Brother, if you can find a genuine Stanley board to trade for it, you want to jump on that opportunity. Normally there are, well, kidneys involved. Just sayin'. ;)
@@sneezingfrog hahaha 100%!!!
I think in this case it might be the table / workbench the shooting board is resting on. Kind of wobbly. The cleat beneath might be worn out etc. In my workflow - DIY shooting board, old Record 5 ½ , Ron Hock iron, no fence - never any issues. My bench is leaning against the wall. So full stability there. Next: remove the fence. The moment the cutting edge enters the wood there might be some interaction between plane body and fence. Next, make sure the shooting board itself doesn't move. Clamp it down to the bench. If nothing works out, only then it's probably the plane.
I thought that too but the veritas doesn't have any issues with the set up I have :/
Luck
Hey there, interesting attempt. I am wondering, what is the use of a shooting board track? Normally we make shooting boards out of thick plywood or other decent material, so its all flat. Then we cut on table saw and get square edges, so an aluminum track seems redundant. Also, the plane naturally cuts where the blade is, when using it, and forms its own track which is zero clearance (or darn close). You get maximum "support" from the edge. So you might try ditching the track, and try just a wood edge. I also like the trick where instead of a screwed on perpendicular fence, you route a dado there, and then make a spline piece which fits into a fence piece. You can then slide the fence as needed to get zero clearance which is a big deal on these cuts with end grain. Good content, people like "non-perfection" videos. I wish the sound volume did not cut in half when you are doing the "clothes washer/dirty sink" talks though lol.
I like the track because it has the metal fence to hold the plane in place. I know you can do that with a wooden one too but I tried both and like the track better for the fence and for the anti friction design. I also like the gap between the board and the plane. The fence there does extend pass the gap so it is 0 clearance. When I built it I put the fence over hanging then planed it to 0 clearance. I think more of all the track is preference haha
Ya the volume is a problem :( I bough a CHEEP camera on Amazon to get started. If this takes off I'll deff upgrade! :)
I own the LN Shooting Plane. I've had issues getting it to do any challenging work squaring end grain. I built a super-nice shooting-board for it per LN instructions. I want to like this plane because all of my other LN tools are excellent. I think this one doesn't really work in real life. What I found is that it cannot hold a blade setting when shearing anything remotely difficult such as something like 3/4" Hard Maple or 7/8" White Oak. What happens is the blade shifts and loses its setting. There is very little keeping it from doing so. By contrast, Veritas has the lower angle approach and it has lateral-lockdown grub screws. That is what the LN needs. I tried a lot of things but nothing so far has worked. The main thing that helped was using planks underneath whatever I'm shooting, to make sure that the board being planed is centered along the width of the plane blade. Otherwise, if it is down lower for example, the plane blade gets knocked out of adjustment right away. And while you're not supposed to do it, I've cranked down on the cap-screw to try to lock things in place better. That didn't solve the movement enough. I've had to resort to squaring end-grain for my current White Oak project freehand, vertically clamped in a vice with a back-stop jig, using the LN 62 which is a low-angle bevel-up. I sharpened that blade down at 25 secondary bevel for a total angle of 38. That ended up being pretty workable. The oak I'm using has been air dried and technically it is Chestnut Oak and looks just like brown English Oak. For what its worth, not even the LN 62 really likes planing that end-grain at 15/16 thick on the shooting board. But free-hand, with the blade skewed and very sharp, things start working fine.
I called Lie-Nielsen tech support and they said I could try applying alcohol to the end grain and that might help, they agreed that the work was demanding for the plane, and also offered that I could send the plane back.
At the moment, the only other thing I might try is roughing the plane blade a little bit with sandpaper where it contacts the frog, and spray contact adhesive or hairspray on one of those surfaces, to help the blade keep its setting. But when you get to the point of trying stuff like that, I feel like its probably grasping at straws with hopes that something will work that has an inherent design flaw. If all I made was thin pine boxes, it would probably be fine. Maybe I'll check and make sure that the frog is flat. So far I've just assumed that it is. LN is always that good!
Probably time to start considering the Veritas since I need something that works every day.
Thanks for the review, good job!
Thank you for sharing! This is really good insight! Did you find that the LN goes outta lateral with other woods? I was trying cherry and didn't even think that it getting knocked out of lateral would be a thing. The Veritas has been my user mainly because of price but also because of the low angle. So I never worried about the lateral given the set screws like you said.
Can you put a shim on the lower side of the blade to hold it? Vs adhesives make something thats like a set screw for that side?
Thanks great video
I have found that even out of the box the LN chip breakers need work, I’ve had nearly all of them that need minor flattening to the chip breaker and the bevel honed to remove the blunt edge on the chip breaker, this being said I have made all of my LN planes work and have had long term success with them also very impressed with the Veritas planes I have too, maybe just a little time more needed to fettle the chip breaker on the LN and if it was as cheap as you said it was seems a little hasty to sell the plane you’ll never pick one up as cheap again! Keep up the good work👍
In your opinion can the chip breaker effect this much? I didn't check it with feeler guages but a buddy did mention that. No chips got stuck under it I know that.
Another buddy mentioned that the LN is top heavy and may be deflecting away from the board.
I am also thinking that I want to keep the veritas just cus it's smaller, easier, lighter, and cheeper. I struggle to keep $$$ tools lol like I don't own a LN Jointer cus it's $500+ I use a bedrock 607 I got for $140 lol I had a LN no 9, best plane ever made hands down, but too $$$ for me to justify keeping as this is a hobby not a buisness haha
Chip breaker is arguably the most important and most under looked thing on a bevel down plane. You need both the back of the blade and the chip breaker to be perfectly flat so you can move the chip breaker right to the front of the blade I've never measured but read under .010" of an inch is ideal and on my planes you can't see the edge of the blade as the chip breaker sits right on it. In pretty much every plane I've set up like this they can make incredibly thin shavings and work on end grain/curly grain without tear out. It's totally under rated as a set up when learning from the internet.
@@BatCaveCreationsa lie neilsen number 9?
K though his bench planes ended with the number 8 jointer?
@danthechippie4439 ya they called it a Miter Plane, thing is awesome! Not technically a bench plane tho
Great content! I knew which should win out of the gate as Ive seen this quite a few times but I knew which one you wanted too! lol. LN makes amazing products but not all perform up the Veritas equals. Ill give ya $60 for the LN and youre up $20! Your welcome.
DEAL! Shipping will be $700 so your total is $760. You have my PayPal hahahahah
@@BatCaveCreations Touche!
Have you checked to see if there was some figure in the board you demo-ed? The shavings you described made me think of it. The low angle Veritas would likely not have had the same issue. Summary: I think it was the sporadic curl in the wood sample you used. Loved the video and will follow your channel. Cheers.
That is possible, deff could be the species I was using and a buddy mentioned that. But I deff wouldn't want to have to be picky with the wood I used with the LN :/ trust me it was a bummer. I ended uo selling the LN.
I am glad you liked the video! Check out the other ones I improved alot since that one haha
Thank you!! Have a good day!
I have both in Jack and smoothers. I gotta tell you, I like the low angle bevel up Veritas. I like my bevel up rabbet LN plane.. I have been chastised by other woodworkers that I am using beginner planes by using bevel up... But compared to my traditional bevel down, They are so much easier to work with. I like the LV adjustable throat over the bedrock style, it's just simpler. I keep multiple blades for my LV so I can choose what angle I work with. To those that say it's a beginner plane, it just makes them feel more experienced and superior... To me easier is desireable, especially since I don't see a difference other than ease of use. My LV irons are A2 and O1.. I chose O1 to be able to quickly modify the angle.. A2 requires more work and diamond for sure.
Don't listen to ppl when it comes to that. Use what you like! I started that way but got tired of how much effort it tool to push the LA when I had the 38 degree and 50 degree irons in there haha but that's my preference! Your is to use them and there is no issue with that! I will always reccomend trying a standard bevel down but if you don't like it, that is 100% ok! Use what you like and get good results with!
@@BatCaveCreations I don't listen to them, they are just trying to feel superior. In my 50 years of woodworking, I have used a lot of bevel down.. I have a nice collection, gave my son all bevel down.. but if you ask me, bevel up like LV with all adjustable mouths have an advantage, especially if you have multiple blades. I still use my bevel downs, but adjustment is not as easy as bevel up. It works well without a chip breaker, I can get whisper thin shavings, or nice honking cuts if I need to quickly dimension or true up a piece. I use a jack plane for shooting. I don't need a dedicated plane.. I use my bevel up LV jack.
@@jsteifel that is awesome!!! Love it! Thank you for sharing!
@@jsteifel I guess every hobby has snobs. ;) I am with you on the bevel up planes. Most of the bevel down planes I own were my father's, grandfather's and father in-law's. I use the planes from time to time just to think about them (father ect). All of my users day to day are now bevel up. I have extra blades for higher angles. Fast and easy to change the angel of attack. Have my eye on the bevel up jointer but that might just be a waste of money as I have a super long shooting board for edge work. Anyway people should use what works and ignore those who are offended by someone else's hand plane.
I suspect the issue is related to the piece of paper and (indirectly) because of the Veritas plane track. On a traditional shooting board there is no back fence preventing the plane from moving away from the workpiece, so proper technique must be developed to hold the plane tight to the side of the board. If you're using the Veritas track and only pushing the plane forward through the cut, it's free to chatter by as much as whatever clearance you leave.
I think you are correct, I just didn't see the same issue with the veritas when you think there would be. I still continue to hear about 50/50 results on people liking or not liking the LN lol
Jamie, I enjoyed this video. I have been a Stanley bedrock user for many years as you mentioned, the Lie Nielsen planes are dressed up copies of Bedrocks while I will admit they are prettier than my bed rocks. I have used Lee Nielsen Planes several times and I find no improvement in the work done over my bedrock I have often felt the pricing is outrageous. Good video, Jamie.😮
I agree :( I compared the 604s and really it's just the metal types and machining options we have now. That's why I lean to Veritas cus they are innovative and we need that
It might be something to do with the squareness of your wood. and/or the fence. I think your stance is off kilter. you need to get behind it so your arm is in line.
That is possible but I had the same set up and stance with the Veritas and didn't have any issues. :(
Disclaimer: I’m a L-N user for Bench Planes and Block Planes (exception is I own a Veritas NX-60 in addition to my L-N blocks) I’m a Veritas user for all joinery planes. I do own a Veritas LAJ, but rarely use since getting the Veritas Shooting plane 2+ years ago.
While I consider the shooting plane to be a joinery plane and only got away from BU planes as a product of wholly embracing gross, medium, fine in all aspects of handwork and can’t ever see me looking back. The L-N bench planes are the bees knees, but I think the L-N Stanley style frogged bevel down design is left wanting for the same reason it wasn’t reliable for Stanly. The BU design is superior for Veritas because it’s the right application for the task and that correct application of skewed BU also keeps the forces applied to the whole system better in line and better supported than any frogged bevel down double iron ever could. It’s simply the better design. That said, if I didn’t own a Veritas Shooter, I’d be fine with my Veritas LAJ (which otherwise is now pretty dormant in my shop) or I’d get by just fine with L-N 5-1/2, 6, or 7 as a shooter. I have a bunch of money invested in both L-N and Veritas, but would consider the L-N Shooter a poor investment that I’d continually regret every time I simply turned a 6 or 7 on its side leaving the shooter to gather dust.
Just my 2¢
Previous comment was already long so I split this off.
A general observation about shooting: I shoot a lot of ends and have done so since nearly my first week of woodworking when I made a bench hook. I've shot with planes from low-angle blocks to no. 6 and IME some settings are nearly irrelevant to planing end grain. As there's no chip to break per se, a tight mouth isn't giving you anything you need, and if the cap iron is set close it's just increasing resistance without giving a benefit.
Since one or more people suggested a back bevel for the L-N, I'll weight in and say you absolutely don't want to use one here 🙂Given that we already know low angle is good (not required, but beneficial) deliberately going for a high AOA is already silly just in theory. And without boring you with the details I've tried it and It just pointlessly increases resistance (to the point that a plane of normal weight can easily just stop dead in its tracks!). A back bevel will always prolong edge life, potentially useful working on the end grain of very hard woods, but for general shooting? Nah.
Thank you! You officially tipped the scale to no back bevel! It was tied into the info i was hearing. Just funny how there is always stuff like this in woodworking lol
same went for the mouth size, chip breaker location, etc.
Maybe this is showing us why the LA Veritas Shooter works, it doesn't have any of that besides the mouth!
Thank you again! Great info for ppl, i hope this one gets bumped up in the comments!
As a Stanley No. 51/52 owner and regular user, I would say your comments are very will informed. Watching the user fiddle with the frog position and chip breaker on the LN was curious. Neither has any positive effect on end grain. As for the Veritas, the adjustable mouth would also be a somewhat useless gimmick as tear-out is not an end grain issue. I occasionally experience the skipping on my Stanley and it is attributed to the working stock recoiling in the holding hand. A firmer grip, a bit more inertia will overcome it once it starts and allow normal planing to resume. The original Stanley stock hold down was not a useful piece of the tool and would not combat this issue, which is why it is the most common missing part on these antique planes. I may have to acquire a Veritas to honestly compare the low cutting angle to the standard 45 degree bedding angle in the hands of an experience shooting board user. Interesting.
As to the idea of just using the speed square for a 45 shoot. at that point why bother with a shooting board at all, just go with the miter saw (unless he doesn’t have one). The point of the shooting board is to dial in a square or miter cut to perfection exceeding that of most miter saw cuts.
This was an old video but I think I said some peope do, I dont now lol I got the veritas fence for a decent deal from a friend so I use that
Thanks for posting this video and the comparison between the two planes. I appreciate all the work you put into getting the LN to work. The biggest red flag for me (and I am not making any accusations here) is that you said you purchased the LN #51 for $40.00?!?!? While I appreciate a good bargain, (most of my planes are type 11 Stanley Bailey's that have been really well refurbished and tuned) It seems to me that getting a plane for less than 10% of the new price may bring with it the expectation of a damaged or poorly manufactured plane. While I'm sure you put it through it's paces and made sure everything was working properly, I can only think of that issue. Such a deal for an expensive plane... maybe something was wrong with it? I don't know, but keep doing what you are doing. I appreciate your videos. Thanks!
Thank you! I won the plane in a raffle that I only paid $40 to enter. Buying out right for 40 would be way to good to be true haha
I have not tried the LN shooting plane, although I own several other of their planes. I purchased the Veritas shooting plane last year and use it daily. In my opinion, the Veritas has three advantages. The lower cutting angle is definitely an advantage. If both planes were sharpened to equal levels of sharp, the lower attack angle will require less force, but I'm certain the difference will not be that great, so I'll forgive you for dismissing that out of hand. The next difference which is probably the most significant one is price. No contest. The third is the availability of PM-V11 in the Veritas blade. It seems to take a sharper edge with less effort than anything else I have ever touched to a whetstone or diamond plate and it holds that edge several times as long as O1 or A2. As I mentioned, I have used mine a couple times each day for over six months and have only sharpened it twice. And earlier today it was still peeling off light full length shavings of hard maple. I have absolutely no buyer's remorse on that purchase. Your mileage may vary.
I agree! And I also feel that low angle planes are way better at handling end grain than standard angle planes. Both can be used but the low angle is just easier lol pmv11 rocks esp for this kind of application!
My guess is that you are referencing the bottom edge of the plane on a track, so there is a bit of room between your sole and the work piece. Since the works piece is so much thinner from the end view,the plane is likley rocking a bit on contact. One of the fee locations where a low angle bedding such as veritas makes so much more sense as the weight is behind the iron, cause it to want to push through forward instead of diving from wanting to do more of a shearing force.
that is a great observation, thank you! Makes sense, maybe sometimes it was rocking and sometimes it wasn't.
Just for funsies! Ever considered using one with the iron up? Like a normal bench plane. 😅😮😂
Hahaha I may have to try that with the veritas lol
I don't know if it is relevant, but most people shooting are shooting endgrain. The Bailey set up on the LN makes no sense on an endgrain plane. One can argue bevel up and down, but this is a job for a low angle plane. Of course there are jig preferences and functions that are long grain. Examples would be guitar sound board prep, or the system Gordon uses with his planes. So maybe a Bailey would be great for that. Doesn't seem to be what the 51 was designed to do, though. The 51 shooting board is clearly a miter type setup.
I agree with you!
Well the price always had me buying the veritas in the near future but this video and comment's have strengthen my resolve to go veritas.
That's what I did! Thank you for reading the comments too! I thought about doing a follow up video on this but I sold the LN hahah
I think that shooting boards and whatever corresponding plane you use must be pretty bang on in every setup and also use respect. I can relate to your futile search for an answer. Sometimes we just have to punt….if answers don’t come after a reasonable attempt then move on. By the way, even the board could be flexing if it is not flat and square on the 2 reference surfaces. Maybe a board issue? Did you try another board which was square and true and did you put the reference edge against the fence and reference have down every time? A must!
100% agree and in response to the board/fence situation. That's what LN said when they called, but... the Veritas had no issues working on that same board, so..... :D I kept the Veritas and sold the LN.
Different tools different ways to use …
Do you have any problems with your Veritas Shooting Board?I’m having a hard time deciding the V and a LN 4 1/2. I will get both eventually, but the 4 1/2 seems a better because it can do other things besides shooting board work. On the other hand, I already have a LN 5 1/2 and I really need a better shooting board plane than using it as a 4 1/2. So standby. I’ll let you know.
No issues with this board. I only have the veritas track tho I build the board
Have you tried using the 5 1/2 for shooting? Try that before getting a 4 1/2 for shooting.
I love the veritas shooting plane it's just $$ lol
@@BatCaveCreations Sorry, I meant your shooting plane. My 5 1/2 is awkward for me to use as a shooting board. My Stanley 4 1/2 works better, but still not particularly comfortable. So, the Veritas makes sense. I’m still going to buy a LN 4 1/2 and the Veritas but not at the same time. I’m pretty sure the Veritas will be first. Both planes are essentially the same $.
Sorry for the delay for some reason YT held this comment for review.....
I have 0 issues with the Veritas shooting plane, it is hands down the best shooting plane you can guy imo. I dont like bevel down planes for shooting because of the angle but i know alot of guys that do it that way. I just prefer the LA shooting plane.
if you dont want a dedicated shooting plane check out a Low Angle Bevel Up Jack instead! I have a review looking at the LN and Veritas ones.
I'll take Veritas shooting plane any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm a fan of LN but the Veritas shooting plane and low angle Jack are best in the industry. I
It seems you have vibrations (chattering) somewhere in the loop - could be blade, frog, or just your shooting board fence is not stable. It will be nice to make another video when you resolve the problem.
Super strange request - would a knob from a long angle jack plane fit on the veritas shooting plane (in place of the brass knob)?? I am in need of a toothing plane, but don’t want to buy a whole other plane.
Lol it does!! I ran down and swaped them out! Make sure you use the brass piece from the LA on the shooting plane as well (or a washer) cus without it it rubs the side of the shooting plane. Just the little extra height prevents it from rubbing.
@@BatCaveCreations Woo!!!! That’ll save me a few hundred dollars. Thank you!!
@Robert Garvey no problem at all!! Happy to help!!
@@BatCaveCreations for posterity - Lee valley will special order the low angle jack knob with the brass washer. Hopefully the skew of the shooting plane won’t hinder the toothing blade’s effectiveness. Either way, having the flexibility of a low angle jack is well worth it! I may even keep the knob on there all the time - time will tell.
@@robertgarvey5744 If it does just hold the plane at the opposite angle and go diagonally across the board so the teeth engage the wood parallel to the edge, you know?
That is awesome that they can special order that for you!!!
try moving chipbreaker far away from cutting edge, it is no use on endgrain. Also I would not add back bevel, not even slightest.
Thank you! It's tough cus some are saying add a back bevel, some are saying not too. Some are saying more the chip breaker closer some are saying move it away hahah
@@BatCaveCreations one more thing I'd check is: unscrew the frog, try to rock it in place, if it clicks, that causes the chatter. It should sit rock solid.
@@gronk555 thank you!
I don't own a shooting plane but I can say that 9 times out of ten its in the sharpening. I have Veritas, Lee-neilson, Woodriver, Stanley and others. And I have had that happen from time to time,
I tried that too unfortunately :/ the veritas was less sharp than the LN too. I followed the other comments and most are saying thw LN is a flawed design and they use LN other than the shooting plane unless it's for edge and face grain. LN did call me when they found this video an gave me some suggestions but I had already sold the plane.
Paper to be the problem sounds a bit strange to me. A shooting board is supposed to work even if the plane doesn't ride in a track, a track with a paper thickness of freeplay is a lot better guiding than no track at all. Maybe a shooting plane with handle a bit away from the cut needs a track, but I have the same amount of freeplay on my shooting board track, with no problems. Also when it comes to position of hands, I think the LN is more ergonomic than the Veritas, with the handle closer to the cut, so if hand position was a problem it should be a bigger problem on the Veritas. I have the Veritas and have tested the LN and I heard and read more people having problems with the LN, but mainly in terms of edge retention. One guy made a very extensive test on this subject with different blade types and angles and conclusion was more or less due to the higher angle on the LN, more force was needed for the cut and the edge dulled lot faster than on the Veritas due to this. I try to put a link to it in next comment, sometimes youtube deletes comments with link and I don't want everything I just wrote to disappear.
I completely agree with you and that is still what I'm hearing that is it a design flaw. They should have gone low angle and upgraded the style vs just upgrading the previous design.
I have heard of a few who truly love that plane and almost everyone who says that has all their other planes in LN. Lol
@@BatCaveCreations couldn't post the link, it was deleted. But since you seem to have sold the plane it maybe doesn't matter. I have several LN and Veritas planes and no special feeling for one or the other company, but in this case the Veritas is just a better shooting plane design.
I agree and that was my finding at the time too and what seems to be the majority consensus. I'll try to Google that cus I'm curious what they said too
@@BatCaveCreations google "in the woodshop more about shooting planes and their blades". That's the second part, first part is linked in that.
thank you!! @@CarmoniusFinsnickeri
When strange things happen, I always go back to fundamentals. But rather than put you to all that work I would be glad to buy the LN from you and take the risk of solving the issue. How about 4x what you paid for it?
Ahha it is long gone now, if I remember correctly I traded it for a Stanley 52 shoot board. Since I had the 51 plane then sold them to buy more tools! I use to flip tools haha
I'll preface by saying I do not have a LN shooting plane... but my observation is with your shooting technique. I don't know if it's been mentioned in the 116 previous comments, but you need to look at your left hand technique. In the video at least, you are hooking your fingers over the top of the fence... holding the work piece against the fence, but with minimal pressure into the plane. you should be putting more pressure toward the plane. Secondly, if you add a small chamfer to the trailing edge of the work piece (the side against the fence), it will not only prevent chipping out that corder, but prevent the end grain from acting like a micro size feather board... which can cause skipping. Also be sure to wax the sole of the plane. I believe you will get better results if you mind your technique.
czcams.com/video/Pq_3wg0_kG0/video.html
I deff appreciate the input! Thank you! My only "rebuttle" is I don't have to do anything like this with the veritas. Using the same method I did in the video on both planes the veritas had no issue and is 1/2 the price :( I love the look of thw LN but for that price and it not "just working", I went veritas lol
@@BatCaveCreations no worries at all... hopefully my input will help others that only have the Lie Nielsen. (maybe I'll also get a veritas!)
I think it will!! It is always good to hear from others!! Thank you again!
First comment is thanks for your greeting on 5/18. Sounds like machining on threads not holding
That is possible I don't thunk anyone mentioned that! Good thought!
1:25 Probably because it's the width of cut, not the tall of cut.
Good point!
Huh. Did you check the angle on the Lie Nielsen blade?
I did 25 primary 30 micro :( it had the *slightest* back bevel like someone did the rob cosman ruler trick but... could thay really mess uo this much? :(
@@BatCaveCreations I'm too much of a newbie to know. Planes are super tricky to me. I'm sure you checked to ensure the frog was snug. Perhaps reach out to Lie Nielsen customer service and ask what this sounds like?
@@blayne2029 I though about that too and someone commented that they did reach out and all LN told then was to take lighter passes haha I can't take light passes at all! Only HEAFYY shavings that I'd never want to take on a Shooting plane haha
@@BatCaveCreations That last comment sounds like either the edge is not truely sharp or the bevel angle is wrong for the frog. Both do result in needing a deeper cut to get anything at all.
@@ehisey I thought about sharpenss but get this after all that testing I took the plane and used it like a normal plane and got thin shavings with no issues hahaha
Why do only 400 know about this channel. You can say Lee if you want my dude
I didn't watch this at the time it was posted (while I like the idea of shooting planes dedicating that much moolah to a single tool that really does only the one job kinda goes against my grain!
Fascinating the issues you were having the the L-N. And thanks for the update posted about a week ago. Like you I am having trouble visualising what the issue could even be, because it sure seems like what you're seeing are symptoms of chatter. Which of course a Bedrock-style plane is supposed to be better at preventing (and especially in a beast of a plane like the 51, with all that mass to dampen vibration). Plus of course with the iron being so much thicker than the original Stanley would have had.
Because I'm commenting late you might have already made your choice and decided to keep the Veritas, although I _hate_ Norris adjusters it does have a number of nice features I must say. But in case you still have the L-N in the shop, I have a couple of things you might try in case nobody else has suggested them already.
1) a paper shim on the bed under the frog
2) I know this is counter-intuitive but adjust the fence away from the plane or take it off completely
In other planes with issues paper shims can dampen vibrations just enough to solve the problem, or reduce it by a lot. As for 2, TBH I'm just grasping at straws here! Who knows, maybe it'll work if nothing else does?
Thank you! The plane is already gone but never thought about a paper shim to dampen the vibrations! I think even if I were to still have it and keep fiddling with it I still would have chosen the Veritas. Noris style can be a pain for sure but it was the simpler, less moving parts, less fuss lol and cheaper. I was able to trade the LN shooting plane for the Stanley 52 Chute board, deff couldn't have done that with the Veritas hahaha
Thank you again! I love reading your comments, you always have great info to add!
good vid but really need to get rid of the sped up footage. Just get to the point and explain what is going on rather than speed it to try and let me guess. Otherwise well done.
I get you! I add chapters so ppl can skip ahead if they want too. I've had alot of guys watch the sped up part and help me trouble shoot. But again I deff get what you are saying and thank you for the feedback! I'm having fun with these videos!
Love your review. Two points. The Stanley 51 has a really poor and fragile frog unique to the 51. Makes parts and repairs hard.
Many many years ago, I ran into an English gentleman by the name of Jim Kingshot. One of the nicest sweetest and humorous folks I met. He was also one of the greatest woodworkers out there having done commissions for the royal family.
He taught me how cut dovetails the right way. I mention him here because he always wanted a 51 and it’s iron shooting board.
He designed a 51 pattern and had it cast. In his design, he took a standard Bailey frog and adapted it to work with his 51 design. No proprietary parts or blades. You can buy a replacement blade from woodcraft or use a Hock replacement.
Lie Nielsen went with this idea on their 51. Brilliant! They use a LN standard bronze Bedrock frog.
The issue is end grain. Even if you tune the blade, it’s still end grain. I think the low angle designs may work better on nasty end grain.
I have both a LN 9 and LN 61.5 block plane and mostly use the 61.5 due to its low angle design. The 9 is discontinued.
Point Two! In the European world, you often see “ie” and “ei”. My channel name has ei in it. It’s confusing to a wood worker. The “ie” is pronounced as a sharp E while the “ei” is pronounced as a sharp I. Easier to remember than the spelling of those French words like chauffeur.
It’s like rabbits, those pesky grooves in wood. Is it “rabbit” or “rebate”? Well it’s neither… these are corruptions of the French word for the plane that cuts these grooves.
Or how about the term iron used in planes? Again, woodworkers not being the most educated simply called the steel blade an iron as it was not wood. The name stuck.
You. Are. Awesome!!! Seriously this is great info! I love it!
The LN no 9 is hands down the BEST plane I have ever handled in my life. I used it for EVERYTHING, shooting and planing normally. I just couldn't justify keeping it for the crazy prices they go for now haha
I love the veritas shooter. I have a video comparing LN to Veritas shooting planes. Check that out and lemmie know your thoughts!
Trust me watch my early videos I got yelled at lot for saying LIE instead of LEE hahaha
As a semi pro who specializes in vintage woodworking and old school custom work, I depend on my collection of LN heavily. I will soon post an awsome series on old school rustic cabinetry on a hunting cabin restore. You will not be disappointed! What I didn’t like about early Bridgecity is that they catered to a collectors market and not a craftsman market. LN and Veritas supply extremely well made tools to the vintage craftsman market. I have programmed and run the top end German CNC machines by Homag and Holhzer in three shops. The vintage tool designs allow me to execute techniques not really meant for or possible by these CNC machines. So my hand tools have to work for their bananas!!!!!!! No F’ing way I can afford to sell my LN 9 or other planes. They are daily users. If you think LN is expensive, have you seen the planes by Carl Holtey? He makes LN look like Wal Mart! And now his planes have gone collector! One plane I really need is a rebate block plane. As soon as the hunting restore check clears, I will buy the LN 60.5 R. It’s a clever fusion of Stanley’s 60.5 with Sargents edge to edge mouth design wrapped up in LN ductile (unbreakable) iron and precision. I have been using a 73 in the interim but it’s heavy and awkward as a block plane.
You will like the 60.5R
I have never tried one but I have the 60.5. Great block plane and you are correct. Bridge city is collectors, LN and Veritas are users. I'm deff not in production at all so the no 9 was a high luxury item haha
Never heard of the other one you mentioned but I will look then uo for sure!!!
@@BatCaveCreations Look up Carl Holtey. His planes set the standard for plane perfection. See what double splayed dovetails in steel and brass look like.
I did and wow! Deff outta my range as a hobby user but those are amazing!
Why do u have these tools?
I use them for planning/squaring end grain. I only have the Veritas now
Shooting planes can do long grain. In fact, it is far easier to joint an edge with a long-grain shooting board than in a vise. The LN would do better than the Veritas with the higher angle. czcams.com/video/klVPKTITguk/video.html
You are correct; however, if I wanted to primarily shoot long grain & face grain, I would just use a bench plane and not a $650 shooting plane. You know?
@@BatCaveCreations hey, just trying to help you make the best of a bad situation 😉
@@devinteske true that haha I traded it for a Stanley Chute Board tho :D
It’s Lee bro
lol I got so much hate for saying Lii hahhaha
there's your problem.... You're using a LN plane in the Veritas track. You're lucky the plane didn't blow up in your hand. LOL..
Ah! That's why the plane kept getting too hot to hold! 😆 😂
The Lie Nielsen is not a 20 degree bed angle it’s the standard 45 degree for the frog in bevel down planes!👍🏾
It's pronounced.."Lee".. haha 😂😂 jk
I have the Veritas it’s 385 and lie Nielsen is 650.. Veritas has grub screws to set the blade.. once you set them you just drop the blade in and go.. the blade is perfectly set ! No messing around.. adjusting a frog on a shooting plane is a pain in the dick! Buy the Veritas! It’s got a better blade with the PMV 11! Easier to sharpen than A2! A2 sucks! Not to mention the 260.00 savings! Tried the lie Nielsen and the handle sticks too far out! The Veritas has your hand closer to the center of the blade.. more inline and this is coming from a lie Nielsen junkie!! I too had the same frustration, I think your on to something with the backlash..
I could not agree more!!!! Thank you!! I sold the LN, bye bye lol Veritas now has a home in my shop lol
I think you need to redo this video, although the primary function of a shooting board is to clean/square up edge grain, a lot of people use it to square and clean edge and small face grain. When the LN is working like it should they both perform this very well. But when it comes to edge and face grain the LN wins at this without question. The finished surface is truly like glass even on figured wood. The Veritas gets a lot of tear out in difficult wood. Plus there is obviously something wrong with your set up. LN will not produce a plane that they don’t feel is premium. Don’t get me wrong I have and love veritas tools. But I believe this video will cause people to make a bad purchase decision without them even knowing about it
I get what you are saying, but if I plan on shooting long grain or face grain I'm just going to use a bench plane vs a dedicated $650 shooting plane. The LN bench planes would would great for this because the square side would so well in a track if using one.
I'm still getting alot of mixed reviews on the LN for endgrain. Alot are saying it's based on a flawed design that Veritas fixed. And this is comming from die hard LN fans thay only have LN but have Veritas as a shooter lol
If this review doesn’t convince consumers to buy Veritas then nothing will. Price is a major concern with many struggling to buy additional tools. Lie Neilson has the name but appears to have some serious issues. As a Canadian, you know what I’m buying.🇨🇦👍👨🦳
The proce alone was a turn off for me haha then when I realized veritas improved the design and style of the plane I was sold. Not gonna lie tho when I wok the LN in a raffle I wanted to keep it and use it cus it is really cool but... you saw I couldn't get it to work hahah