Stealth in Dungeons and Dragons 5e
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... In this video, we take an in-depth look at the techniques, tactics, and rules for stealth in Dungeons and Dragons 5e.
We cover the basics rules for stealth and hiding, the benefits of being hidden, how to remain undetected, as well as the many ways foes can locate you despite your best efforts. We’ll also talk about a few class features, spells, and feats you can use to greatly enhance your chances for a successful infiltration.
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Which class do you think has the best tools and abilities for stealth and infiltration?
Dungeon Dudes I think the Ranger is a good choice if one does not want to play the Rogue.
1. When traveling alone move stealthily at normal pace.
2. At tenth level gains hide in plain sight ability.
3. At 14th level gains vanish ability.
4. 2nd level Pass without trace and silence spell
5. 3rd level nondetection spell
6. 5th level tree strider spell
Read the tree strider spell, this could be a game changer. Almost every ranged attack could be a surprise attack and almost all attacks would be from partial cover!
I think at 5th level the Ranger gets its second attack. And if I remember there is a fighter archetype that is called battlefield master which allows the fighter to control another fighter on the fighters turn. So the ranger could hide in plain sight and attack from behind, use tree strider to move to a new position stealthily, fire a second shot, and use tree strider to move to a third position. On the fighters turn they could use battle master to control the ranger to fire a third shot from a spot unseen. In this situation the fighter/ranger combination could be a wicked combination.
Ranger can get the pass without a trace spell (+10 on stealth rolls for you and your party), but doesn't get Hide in Plain Site until level 10, and Vanish (bonus action to hide) until level 14. A fighter/rogue multiclass would get the bonus action at level 2 (Cunning Action), Sneak Attack, as well as other Rogue goodies, and the Fighter abilities (Action Surge for an extra attack or two at level 2, and the extra attack at level 5). I get what you're saying about the attack and hide stuff not making sense, but as a DM, I would say that with a ranged weapon, an attack and hide as a bonus could easily be done, as long as the hiding places aren't obvious (i.e. there is only one place they could have hidden), especially if their backs are turned. That makes Rogues really powerful early on with their sneak, attack and hide combos, and as a fighter, the action surge means that you can go "Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Hide".
Ninja!
Druid/Wizard IMO: "I turn into a fly."
Group Stealth: If half the members of a party succeed, everybody does. PHB P.175
I think if the party is trying to stealth the dm should roll it and then let the players find out if they failed by accepting that they "passed".
I think the point with ''a stealth kill'' is that the rolls dictate the action not the other way round. Or put it another way, if you sneak up behind someone and attack them (getting advantage for being unseen) and you hit, and then roll enough damage to kill them straight out then yes - you slit their throat. If you didn't roll enough to kill them out right, then you tried to slit their throat but they twisted their head earning themselves a nasty gash but ultimately surviving the attempt.
Exactly!
I concur, my 8th level human rogue assassin does a nasty amount of damage when I attempt a stealth kill. Using assassinate, I roll to hit with advantage & if I hit its a critical. That's 8d6 for sneak attack, 2d4 for dagger, & add my dex mod. I usually do over 40 pts of damage. And if they look particularly strong I can always dual wield and/or use short-swords. The 2nd attack doesn't get dex mod or sneak attack but it is more damage.
Not only this I always try to make clear, tell the story tell me what you do. If you say I slit his throat, but didn’t say I covered his mouth, he is letting out a death scream and alerting his friends. As an example
@@ericm3327 that's the point of the surprised condition. He can't act. Unless his initiative comes back around and he's still alive. Then if they said they're covering the mouth I'd allow an opposed str check using the grapple rules
@@RobKinneySouthpaw they can't take actions
Screeming isnt a action
"Stealth kills are actually really hard to do." Almost as though he's tried it before in the real world.
I can neither confirm nor deny this.
@@FuelDropforthewin Do you know my friend Koh Bold?
@@MrAdam-lt1px Of course! He is absolutely a genuine kobold and not an eldritch horror pretending.
Actually in real life they are fairly easy to do. if you shoot someone unexpectedly his friends don't stand around and try to figure out where the arrow came from, they dive for cover.
i see you have a perception bonus
A few sessions back, the ranger in my game managed to sneak into, and subsequently get locked inside a warehouse without alerting any enemies, AND without telling any of his party members; he spent the session enacting hair-brained ideas to try and get out.
The best attempt was when he decided "hey [DM], you said there are lots of cats walking around, right? I'm going to cast Speak With Animals and convince one to help me get out." He also decided to lie to this cat and pretend he was a cat too.
The Ranger didn't know anything about the area though, so the person he managed to convince the cat to fetch to help him was just a local cook who didn't have any means of unlocking the warehouse. My Ranger bud didn't know this, but he was fully committed to pretending he was a cat and, he didn't ask, he *said* "I use Disguise Self to make myself look like a cat!"
Being a dutiful DM, I obliged.
"Your body seems to completely cover itself in brown cat hair with white stripes. Your face appears a bit wider, and your eyes turn green with black slit pupils. Your hair disappears into the rest of your head, except for two tufts that fashion themselves into faux-ears.
[pause]
You are now a 5ft tall elf-shaped cat person with no tail. You're essentially a mediocre furry in a mediocre fursuit hiding alone in a warehouse." [raucous laughter from the group]
[in response to his confusion] "Read your spell, dude. You can't turn into a cat-sized cat. But it's an inspired idea! Who knows, this might work out for you."
Unfortunately since the random cook couldn't open the warehouse, no one got to see him as...this thing. But we all know. We all know. And thanks to his stealth, so far as his party knows, he simply did an excellent stealthy reconnaissance job!
🤣
“But we all know, we all know”
You basically made Cats in DND!
And THAT is why you should always have a ranger in the party!😉
I had a player try to stealth their way around an enemy camp, but they rolled a 1. So I decided they tripped. On a Dexterity saving throw they rolled another 1, so.... instead of sneaking around the camp they tripped, fell down the hill toward the camp and stopped rolling prone at the enemy’s feet.
Those moments are my favorite. Or when you are really fudged and probably about to die and someone pulls an amazing idea together and rolls a 20.
Oh shit....then the next turn he has to stand up which takes away half his movement.
Or if he had the feat mobile he could only spend 10 feet of movement
They rolled 2 1’s in a row... damn
@@michaelcdarby If you think about rolling 1s when you roll, then you often do.
My players did this. They cast silence to the door and killed the guards while everyone was sleeping, successfully infiltrate to the barracks and trap all the soldiers that where sleeping inside with the Stone Shape spell just after they light the room on fire of course. In that way they killed most of the guards without even droping a single Hit Point.
Really nice...
A great strategy, masterfully executed. Kudos to your players! I think you did a great job by rewarding their ingenuity and teamwork, too. Next time their adversaries better be on their guard!
And they all dropped in alignment, right?
Wow that sounds like a war crime
No one yet? Ok, i have to tell the obvious joke:
-Why the rogue is the sneakiest of them all?
-Because his armor is literally made of hide.
*clapclapclap*
GLORIOUS!
The end of Conan the barbarian, Schwarzenegger sneaks up behind the main villain, thulsa doom, and chops off his head. He does turn around, but is still felled in 2 hits. This guy became a giant snake.
Obviously Conan had inspiration going for his stealth roll in this case, otherwise "He's too big to be a Thief!"
@@ronangarey7327 Conan starts out as a thief, both in the movies and books. He has high dexterity and intelligence, people tend to underestimate this.
@@rezkalla I mean before he's a thief he's a killer, but he has a knack for the whole thieving thing because he used to be a great hunter before that, if I recall. But yeah I always loved how multifaceted his skillset was, and that there was more to him than just 'cronch skull, drink drink, touch lady'
"i sneak behind them"
*Roll 1*
"You fart"
A high school friend of mine and I used to spend weekends tag-teaming Ultima 4.
There were creatures in there called Headlesses; essentially orcs or goblins with no heads.
One time, I was just idly wondering out loud, how these critters communicated with each other.
Just about then, my buddy let one rip, and we knew without a doubt, how a creature with no head could communicate... :D
Just two weeks ago our ranger rolled a 1 and farted, alerting our enemies. It happens, man.
i mean if you roll a 1 and have a +7 to stealth is it still a 1?
@@Probableloss critical fail is critical. You can run your game with it or without it.
@@thor498 Critical rolls don't apply to skill checks.
My take:
Hiding and stealth are not the same thing. Hidden just means not visible. Stealth means they don't know where you are. So if you are never seen, you are stealthed. If you are seen and step behind a wall, you are hidden.
Think of it like the game Hide and Go Seek. If you peek and see your friend going into the closet, you know your friend is in the closet and will go look there.
But where it gets really subjective is, like your example, the ranger popping out and taking a shot then hiding again. How far away was the shot and the travel time of the arrow? Sure they know the direction the arrow came from, but did they look quickly enough to see him?
And how about mask of the wild? The guy is looking at me but it's raining so I just disappear?
The bottom line is that stealth is WAY too complicated to set hard rules on. But at the same time I think DMs have to have some leniency on it as it was obviously meant to play a part in the game.
This, emphatically.
Don't forget about the halfling's ability to hide behind medium creatures, too.
Saying that you can't hid because they saw where you were, and can't go back into hiding is not only not supported by the rules, but doesn't actually make sense.
But carte blanche to hide everywhere doesn't make sense either.
Either way, I wouldn't want to play a rogue with these guys. Sounds like they just don't like stealth...
It's all a balancing act. Stealth is super powerful for Rogues - advantage and sneak attack on any creature plus enemies can't target you for attacks. And pretty powerful for everyone else. So it has to be balanced by requiring particular conditions to be met to use it. Plus there are just the demands of verisimilitude - e.g. you can't hide as a normal sized person on a flying broom in a clear sky - it just doesn't make sense, people are going to see you.
I actually think Starfinder has a very good set of rules on this, that Pathfinder 2 is adopting I believe, that outlines "levels of awareness" one creature/pc/npc might have of another.
Coming at it from that angle lets you ascribe rules and abilities to those various states in particular, and better describe what you can do and can't do from them. Quantifying the difference between an enemy you don't know exists, you know something's in the area but don't know what or where, you know something's "over there" but not where exactly, something you know exactly where it is but can't "see" (or blindsight etc), and something you have eyes on helps smooth out a lot of these wackier cases with stealth.
Even without using those rules explicitly, just reading through them has made it easier for me to explain and categorize different situations, and try and sort out what makes sense and what doesn't.
I agree with the difference between “hidden” and “stealthed” wholeheartedly. It also gets even more complicated when you introduced the concealment and cover terminology. Cover stops line of effect, but not necessarily line of sight. Concealment stops line of sight, but not necessarily line of effect. If you’re in stealth, enemies don’t know where you are but they may still have line of sight and line of effect to you once they notice you. It’s way more complicated than I think a lot of us give it credit for.
I agree 100%
There's always the classic of grabbing a guard and strangling them. Basically becomes a grapple, until they die, which is covered under the rules of choking (which takes awhile) and you, as a DM, can always have enemies come to check on them (change of guards, overlapping patrol routes, they notice the guy in the watchtower isn't there anymore) so your party can't really get away with strangling out every guard, but it can get them into a stronghold without raising the alarm.
Absolutely. Good call on referencing the rules for suffocation as a means of adjudicating it!
@Sesha BeoWulf I would love to see something like this baked into the monk class (as it is the ONLY martial artist class in 5e). Perhaps a trait that others can learn but only monks do so regularly.
Sesha BeoWulf Keeping the DC at 8 each turn to wake up makes sense to me as it forms a geometric distribution of the time to wake up as it is necessarily longer for a low Constitution character.
@@Nurk0m0rath I've also been a little frustrated that monks don't have better access to things like grapple and shove since holds and throws are so central to so many martial arts. I tried to get my DM to let me use Athletics (Dex) instead of Athletics (Str) as my roll for those as like most sneaky types his Dex is great but his Str is so-so. But he feels that Dex is already "the most useful stat" and nixed it.
@@scottbender9056 Yeah...I kind of agree with him, but at the same time I don't, because most martial arts throws and holds are more reliant on skill and speed (aka dexterity) than on strength. Then again I'm a guy who'd base bows on strength and swords on dexterity, because from my experience with historical martial arts, that's closer to the truth.
Getting surprise, but not having advantage is like bursting in on enemies and hitting them before they can react (that doesn't mean that they can't dodge out of the way). Surprise with advantage would be like attacking them from stealth where they don't know they're being attacked.
Perfect explanation!
would a similar example be if you walk into a room where you know there are enemies but they are hidden behind cover and then they pop up from their cover and shoot arrows?
@@aelfman1 sounds fair, you're on guard but they've already lined up a shot; they're going to get the first attack but you're not sitting down having a chat and some tea.
i’m late to the party but surprising require stealth attempt from the surprising group. The reason why you wouldn’t have avantage (it wasn’t mentioned in the video) is if you go in plain sight to melee attack. You are exposed before reaching your target. Any range attack would have advantage... unless they move out in the open.
Bursting in on ennemies is not supposed to give surprise if you were not stealthy. If you are stealthy and then initiate combat by bursting a door, any ennemies who didn’t detect you with their passive perception being higher than your stealth will be surprised and then initiative is rolled. But the reason they are surprised is stealth, not bursting in.
1.Play Barbarian
2. Run in kill all guards
3. Walk through dungeon
There's always a bigger barbarian.
YOU NO SEE KROD!
Mazzy this is the way I play this game :-??
Here's what I tell my players if they ask about instant stealth kills:
If you want to do them, then others in the game world can do them too.
I lost my first table top RP character due to over estimating his stealth abilities. I'd cheesed most of the campaign hiding in the shadows and murdering enemies with what must have been maddening ease for my game master. Then a huge siege event took place and he was basically useless. Too many eyes and too much chaos he couldn't control and he was VERY squishy. Desperate to do ANYTHING (and intensely bored as the player) he did sneak out of the city to try and harass the enemy army only to pick a fight with a group of a dozen crossbow men in the middle of an open road surrounded by a field (not my smartest move) they spotted him on his approach and he was promptly a pin cushion. It was very sad. My fellow players offered to burn or bury his character sheet.
That's a pretty epic death. Leonidas in 300 comes to mind.
Wood elf allows you to hide while only "lightly concealed" such as while wearing a cloak of elvenkind with the hood up. No matter where you go, you're good....apparently.
Not quite. Mask of the Wild says, "You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena." A cloak is _not_ a natural phenomenon.
@@bigdream_dreambig you are 100% correct. When I wrote that comment, I was new and my dm ruled that a cloak of elvenkind lightly obscured you. I know better now.
I'm not sure I agree with the Halfling lightfoot description made in the video. Naturally Stealthy states : You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you (Halfling is listed as small so most creatures will likely be considered one size larger). I would argue that with the addition of Halfling Nimbleness trait (You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours) and the way Naturally Stealthy is written, that a Halfling should in theory be able to 'travel' through party members to a point at which a foe(s) should lose track of them (so you don't just hide behind your Fighter/ Paladin but actually traverse a couple to several members depending on the Halfling's available movement and the teams positioning. If you're playing with an agreeable group of folks, they will often reorient themselves to aid in the Halflings goal). Considering if that Halfling is a Rogue and using Cunning Action - Hide, I would think that would be debatable grounds for a character that could actually attack (ranged being preferred) and then hide (AoO aside if melee). Yes the foe(s) would technically be aware that there is a Halfling in the fight but I think it's more about the foe(s) being able to actually keep track of the Halfling during a skirmish. If you're constantly moving throughout the fight (using teammates and environment) and popping up in different locations while passing all your checks, I'm of the opinion that this is one of the few types of characters that can actually 'hide' in a battle (aside from adding in additional feats like Skulker or the Stealthy feat in Unearthed Arcana or things like you mentioned in the video like invisibility etc).
I always imagined the "Detect Magic" spell would be like the bane of magic-based invisibility spells.
Like an invisibility cloak, but that lights up like a Christmas tree if perceived through an infrared lens.
Not quite so anymore! Detect Magic only "lights up" visible creatures and objects:
"For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you. If you sense magic in this way, you can use your action to see a faint aura around any *visible* creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any."
You can't determine the location or school of a magical aura that is invisible.
Dungeon Dudes but you would sense something is unseen in a 30 foot radius since invisibility is magic, right?
Nope.
It's a sight-based spell. Invisibility defeats it.
Wrong, you wouldn't be able to see it, but you would sense it. First sentence of the spell.
And then the second sentence explains _how_ the character casting the spell senses the presence of magic: any _visible_ magical object appears to glow. That is, the description _starts_ with the term "sense", then goes on to explain that the specific sense used is sight and only _visible_ objects are analyesd by the spell. Specific beats general. Invisibility therefore defeats the spell.
Another way to look at it is to consider that See Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell, while Detect Magic is only 1st. As a general rule, if it seems to you that a character could get the benefit of a 2nd-level spell by casting a 1st-level spell, you're reading the spell wrong.
I’d love to hear you give an example of how the Rogue’s Cunning Action is used during combat. It’s clearly an in-combat ability and Hide is one of the bonus action ms they can take “after attacking”. There’s a stealth guide up on dndbeyond right now that says this can be done repeatedly.
Great catch. We touch on this in our Rogue Guide! Check it out.
Short answer, this works, but remember you can never hide when a foe can see you clearly, so you need to find total cover in order to hide. This is a lot easier said in theory than executed in practice. This might mean you have to hide somewhere were you can't see your foe clearly either. So if you have to come out of hiding in order to attack, you might lose the benefits of Sneak Attack. Again, this is always going to depend on the conditions and the environment, which is why the DM is given total authority in the rules about when you can and cannot hide.
@@DungeonDudes There are cases where you can hide when a foe can see you clearly, such as if the PC race is an elf or a halfling. The Sage Advice Compendium straight up says that wood elves and halflings can hide, "While observed."
Straight from the document, which is a collection of rulings by Jeremy Crawford: "A lightfoot halfling, though, can try to vanish behind a creature that is at least one size larger, and a wood elf can try to hide simply by being in heavy rain, mist, falling snow, foliage, or similar natural phenomena. It’s as if nature itself cloaks a wood elf from prying eyes-*even eyes staring right at the elf!*
So a rogue that takes wood elf, for example, will have a substantially easier time hiding than a human, etc., subrace without additional support.
Our halfling rogue likes to hide behind our half orc druid shape shifted druid alot. Orc turing into a bear in the middle of combat was deemed enough to let the halfling disapear.
I guess you could say that your enemies could bearly see the halfling rogue behind the mountain of fur.
@@DungeonDudes that's a good one
@@DungeonDudes That's unbearable.
@@DungeonDudes Lightfood halflings CAN HIDE behind a creature larger than them. If you are gonna be rules lawyers, then you gotta stick by the rules even if you don't like em. Seems like you are house ruling this one as lightfoot halflings can't do this because you don't like it.
@@DungeonDudes that joke was just grizzly!
Awesome videos, i’m learning SO much from you guys
Very helpful, dudes! Thanks for droping the knowledge!
Regarding stealth kills, I am reminded of Matthew Colville saying that in early D&D, HP represented your reserve of awesome - so losing HP might represent an epic dodge of a killing blow that saps some of your heroic strength. Perhaps taking a ton of HP damage from a sneak attack is grabbing the wrists of the rogue just as the first drop of blood beads on your throat
My favorite stealth story involves our group "sneaking" into a hidden temple to locate an item. We were killing small groups before alarms could be raised ... right up to the point that the wizard cast "Thunderwave" on a group of enemies. Then our stealthy infiltration turned into a fighting retreat as we rushed to get away from every enemy in the temple.
That wizard is such a bard.
The End from MGS 3 can be killed prematurely in an earlier mission if Snake snipes him from a hiding spot.
Hi guys. I'm new to Dungeons and Dragons and I love your videos. I haven't played a game yet though. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can DM and host my own games. Thanks for all the great information!
erin0033 I just started as well first time playing and first time dm and have run 2 sessions successfully
I suggest you learn everything you can and make sure you know most of the rules if you want to check out
Web DM And Nerdarchy are my favorite dnd youtubers
Matthew Mercer has a series on Geeks and Sundrys channel where he gives a lots of new DM tips.
Most importantly rules in the books are guidelines. Literally the creators said they are. So if you think something should be different change it but tell your players (if they should know). And if you aren't certain, ask around the internet, many people are really helpful and will help you to improve your ideas or show you alternatives.
And if something funny or really cool comes up, try to roll with it.
Oh and a big thing: don't expect players to know what you know. Most players aren't as euphoric about d&d and might not even know basics.
The biggest rules are unless you have a feature that says otherwise you have to be heavily obscured and you CANNOT hide from what sees you. So you have to break line of sight before hiding but in order to attack you have to move out of said cover revealing yourself, meaning you are no longer hidden, unless you are hidden by lighting
The hardest part of it is there's no "behind" a creature in 5e. If you're within line-of-sight, the creature can see you*. Therefore, it's almost impossible to "attack from stealth" in a lit room. Which is why, I suppose, the Sneak Attack rule doesn't even mention stealth. Everyone else just has to accept that using "stealth" to get the drop on an enemy is no different from any other method of gaining Advantage.
\*Conditions Apply
Rev Shad42 id say you can attack/shoot your bow as you turn the corner. Stealth still drops, but you get that sweet advantage
Thx for the video. I liked it.
Please make a video for guide for monks.
Also open to you more in depth about perception and passive perception.
Thanks! Clear clarification of rules. Good video presentation.
Rangers at a higher level could use a bonus action to hide, right? I think it's the ability Vanish that let's them do that. That's pretty important for my Gloom Stalker Wood Elf in this Sunday's game as the scout for the party.
Re: Sleeping Character "Stealth" kills.
Attacking a prone character (from within 5') grants Advantage. A sleeping character would be considered "Unconscious", thereby granting an automatic critical.
Basically, at my table you'd play that out as a Stealth Encounter to see if they get there without alerting the victim, then Surprise on the combat you're initiating by taking a violent action. So, it's not strictly speaking an insta-gib every time, but that should be enough to take out any low-to-mid level mook without "breaking the game", or at least get you well on top of the fight when they wake up bleeding and unarmed.
Honestly loved this video! I tried explaining stealth to the rogue in my party and he just didn't get it (he thought he could keep hiding on the same cover) this video helped clear things up and because of this video ive subscribed to your channel
Thanks guys, this was so clear. We have been having problems with out Rogue in combat.
Barbarian: "The DM let me slit that guy's throat with my greataxe because of my stealth check."
Rogue: "I'm totally putting all my future levels in another class. FML!"
Thank you for doing these guides, Dudes, they are fun, informative and well made :D
This video was exactly what I was looking for, thank you
first campaign I've ever played in, I'm trying to do some reconnaissance roll 2 nat 1's in a row on stealth checks and end up arrested by the city guard :)
I had a great scenario where one of my players dropped a minor illusion and made a barrel adjacent to the entrance of a building from whence were pouring out hordes of Lemure devils. She was a rogue, and was shooting into the throng of lemures from within the barrel with advantage every time. I opted to give her the "Rule of Cool" since she wasn't interacting with the barrel itself.
The intro puns are why I watch these now
Played a halflings rogue at one point. There was a crowded room, being smaller than everyone in there made for easily getting lost in crowds.
Technically in 5e stealth attacks give advantage to first attack (PHB. 195) , and if it is a melee attack and the target is also sleeping (unconscious) then if it hits it is a crit.
And you can also run away from it without provoking opportunity attack if its turn is after yours and it is suprised. (as the suprise ends as soon as its turn ends)
So there is a benefit for every class. But ofc the rogue can deal the most damage with the sneak attack. Best stealth and infiltration options are for Bards as they can get the same stealth score as rogues with expertise, plus the inspiration die, plus invisibility, disguise self or if they take Pass without Trace if its part of Magical Secrets. Only thing missing would be Thieve's tools, but they can apply Jack of All Trades feat to that roll or choose criminal background to gain the proficiency, or just use Knock spell that is better IMO. And they can also teleport with Dimension Door.
Cool Bard combination. Magic really takes infiltration and stealth into overdrive, this is why I love bards and arcane tricksters.
To be clear: "using stealth" is not what gives you advantage on an attack roll: being unseen *does*. It's a small distinction, but the rules you quote on page 195 is the same line we quote in the video. It means that it is possible to be hidden from a creature at the start of your turn, come out of hiding, and lose the attack roll advantage in the process, even though at the start of your turn the creature didn't know you were there. The Dungeon Master could adjudicate otherwise, which is exactly why the 5e rules give the Dungeon Master the ability to make the call rather than spelling out a ton of specific circumstances. We wanted to disentangle these rules in the video to be clear that the Stealth rules themselves are pretty simple, they just interact with a lot of OTHER rules in the game! -- monty
yes, my comment was just to add additional benefits of stealth that I didn't hear the first time watching the video, I missed the mention of it on 3:44
Well you did explain the sleeping rule which in the video they mentioned that, no a creature being unconscious (sleeping here) doesn't allow you to auto-kill them. They didn't say what it does do and advantage on hit with auto-crit (if hitting) is pretty big.
The downside to Bards stealthing is that they don't get the Sneak Attack bonus that Rogues do. Arcane Trickster Rogues can do a lot of what you just said too. Also, Bards don't get to hide as a bonus action after making their attack and running to another position.
@@Lndmk227 While this may be true, the roguish archetype of bard, College of Whispers, has a very similar power to sneak attack, using psychic instead of normal damage. And being main casters, bards can also get all that spell support while leaving room for multi-classing. However, bards cannot by RAW apply their inspiration dice to themselves, which is one less thing in favor of the bard.
Personally I think the best infiltrator would be a rogue/warlock multiclass. Invisibility, detect magic, silent image, and disguise self at will, perfect 120ft darkvision, reading every language ever written, and your choice of an invisible familiar, extra spellcasting, or a blade you can conjure out of thin air are all tools a rogue could use to ensure they get in, get the job done, and vanish without a trace. And that's just the pact boon and invocations. This build would not include pass without trace unless you also multi-classed 3 levels in druid, but I could see cause to add it to a fey pact's expanded spell list. Unfortunately Shroud of Shadow is a level 15 invocation, but there's always the lesser version at level 5 and an actual invisibility spell.
Nice video! Agree 100%! I like to play using the same way!! Thanks
HUGE thanks for the Audible Distance chart AND for making it full screen so I could screenshot it, paste it in paint, and just save it! How have i just recently found you guys? Also, thanks for the vid it's self. Something I can show my players to explain this with ease!
It's on the DM Screen
A random thought, if you have darkvision and the skulker feat, you have effectively no penalties at all in darkness.
Speaking of that halfling lightfoot ability to hide behind a larger creature, as the bard/rouge of my party I typically hide on the golaith barbarians back cause we both wear large feathered cloaks made from the same owlbear, using this to make assassinations then hide during combat has always been full of silly moments, once even resulting in me taking the stealth attack from behind meant for the barb :p
Thanks for sharing your creativity and knowledge.
The most important thing was at the beginning when they said that the DM decides whether or not stealthing could be successfull or not and whether or not a stealth check is to be rolled. This is also important for hiding during battle. If a player tries to sneak behing the same tree over and over again I don't allow that cause everybody knows he's there. But if he ducks underneath the bush next to that tree and crawls (half speed at I'd consider that being prone) to the next tree to hide there, I would totally give him the stealth roll for hiding again.
Also I like rewarding players for coming up with good ideas and descriptions on stealthing so I sometimes grant either advantage or their rolls or disadvantage on my rolls, if they came up with some really good ideas. But I don't recommend doing so too often.
This isn't *wrong* per se, but Crawford suggested it's a fine usage of cunning action to do this (it is the Rogue's key feature in lieu of stuff like extra attack, after all), and the DM should instead direct enemies to the general direction of the source of attacks. "Pursue the enemy", as it were. How can an enemy know you're going to fire an arrow at them if you're only popping out of cover after you've already drawn your bow? It only grants advantage, not an automatic hit, after all. The enemy is still reacting, just with less time because you're well-hidden.
"Must have been my imagination" love MGS
I personally love Rogue for stealth. I was recently a large help with my party when faced by a large group of NPCs. It also helped to have some dust of disappearance.
I just got into with a character, about stealth and hiding. He was upset that I told him that skeletons and their master were waiting and watching him from the flank.
Glad I finally got to this video. My players are OBSESSED with being as stealthy as possible. Give me some KNOWLEDGEEEE!
I have been in skirmishes during sword training (contact fighting) and trust me when I say this, as the number of people goes up it gets progressively harder to keep track of everyone, especially in a melee. It is hard to keep track of 3 against one and if there are several such grouping around you it will be a confused mess.
A smart character can use that confusion to their advantage and hide anywhere as long as they have a way to do it. Hiding in the middle of the floor is a bit difficult without resorting to magical means to hide. Stealth and illusions are a nasty combo once you get good enough.
Instant kills are easy, you just have to be smart about it and that do NOT work in D&D.
A fun trick is walking invisible and sneaking up to a sleeping ogre, then slip a thin strong wire around its neck, then tie the other end to a tree. Then move 20 meters away, get ready and start shouting insults at the ogre. It is really funny when it storms towards you only to be yanked back by the thin wire. That's when you attack with ranged weapons and spells. It works even on a squad of ogres if you av someone good at stealth. Then there is the guillotine like blade suspended over the head of someone, or simple an anvil, both will kill almost everyone.
Then there is the innocent little girl lady of the night who doubles as an assassin who likes to push a then blade in your ear when the target is sleeping or not paying attention, done right stuff like that will kill.
Be creative, it might work or it might not, but many things work surprisingly well in real life because we humanoids are soft fleshbags. In a fight we can be hard to put down, but surprised.. ending a fleshbag is easy once they are out of armor, unless they have pesky magic or technology.
One of my trick were to block a room where people were sleeping right after throwing in something burning and emitting lots of smoke, if it is poisonous even better. Then just sit back and wait for the occupants to either succumb or come staggering out and easy to take down. Once you have them prone a deathstrok is easy.
When you have player that comes up with stuff like this all the time, aka fighting smart, then the npc must be smart to, and that just ups the immersion. Especially if each npc has something to do, a goal, a dream and so on. The guards are doing a job and they want to life, so scaring them shitless will work nearly as good as killing them. Add in visual (illusions or window dressing) and you can make anyone agitated.
Just be smart about it.
Thanks for mentioning that invisibility doesn't automatically mean hidden. So many DMs I've played with seem to have that wizard we managed to corner just pop an invisibility spell then immediately walk away, and we essentially have no chance of finding them again. You have to wait until next turn before you can hide and then stealthily leave the area, but they always seem to ignore this and think "Invisibility = ceases to exist"
In the movie "Departed," Leonardo DiCaprio's character is pretty much "stealth killed" with one shot. (Granted, not really a movie that one tends to analyze according to the according to D&D rules, but you did ask for action movies where a non-cannon fodder character is stealth killed...)
By the way, I should have added thanks for the video--I enjoyed watching it. I'm playing a Wood Elf Rogue right now (just dinged 11) and having a lot of fun with stealth. And (in reference to the Rogue's Guide you made earlier)--you guys are missing out on the Thief. I've had tons of fun with the Fast Hands ability and Fast Climbing. Forces me to think of creative ways to use these abilities. (Of course, I realize the different archetypes appeal to different players, and I haven't had a chance to try the other archetypes yet--but want to try the AT and Swashbuckler at some point as well).
I was playing in an Arena style setup (think Gladiatorial) where I had my character cast Invisibility then basically go into a corner and wait until the enemies were weak enough. Then she used her own spells to decimate the remaining enemies.
"I have a sneaking suspicion that this video might surprise you." I love this man.
4:30 Mutants And Masterminds, a superhero game based on the D&D mechanics, has a feat literally called Hide In Plain Sight which allows you to do exactly what you just described.
In a recent session, our group got into a fight where my character (a Bard/Rouge), decided to charm one of the other player (the Cleric) and failed twice and nearly got one-shotted when the paladin used their ability to take the damage and was K.O-ed. I went invisible and waited until the Cleric went to help them and tried to sneak attack them only to miss (by one point!) against their AC of 23 and got destroyed but the fighter who was backing the Cleric up. Then the Cleric healed me, in which the moment I regained consciousness went invisible and high tailed out of there to the next town. It was great, we went from 0 to 10 in a matter on minutes.
August 5th, 2022.
Commercials were much more often.
Congratulations guys.
You guys work hard.
The Ranger also has an ability called "Nature's Veil". This is great for giving advantage on attacks if timed properly. Not to be confused with the "Hide in Plain Site" Ranger ability, which can also come in handy in certain situations. I personally love the Ranger class. Especially if you multi-class with Rogue. Great video!
The halfling rogue in one of my groups keeps hiding behind my bulky paladin :) The feature have been really useful for our campain.
Regarding your comment about stealth kills, while it's not a movie there is a series of games called Dishonored where you most certainly can sneak up behind a boss or key target or whatever (or literally any other character) and stealth kill them in one shot
Our halfling rogue loves to hide behind the half orc barbarian during battle. All it really does is make them target the half orc but hey that's one of the reasons we have him
my group of pcs just about stealth killed a young white dragon at level 4. they stalked it to find out when it slept, pass without a trace and all held their attacks to attack at once. white dragon rolled low initiate so took 8 attacks before it could even react. the rogue had a poison and sneak attack with assassinate. the easiest boss fight. now i face them with deadly encounters or worse because of how well they did that one time
So I guess the mechanics in 5e are a bit wonky and could use more definition or revision. My POV:
1. In a major battle, a person in battle cannot process all the sights and sounds instantaneously. If a warrior is engaged (fighting or charging) then this warrior will not naturally know whether his comrade 50 feet behind him was fallen by an arrow from a hidden adversary. I would allow for the hidden attacker to remain hidden from some people in subsequent turns unless the person he attacked somehow alerts the party of a hidden attacker. Now if the non attacked warrior had some special battlefield ability or super high passive perception the warrior would know their comrade had fallen.
2. If a hidden attacker shoots someone in the attack from distance and stealthily moves into fully covered position I would make the enemy NPC assume the attacker was in the same position and not moved. I would allow this because the party attacked did not have line of sight and the player casted/rolled a silent move.
I hope this makes sense.
Great comment, and a perfect example of why the D&D 5e rules give DMs a fair amount of leeway in adjudicating when stealth is and is not possible. The D&D rules in general assume combatants are aware of their surroundings, but we can imagine many circumstances where foes might be sufficiently distracted that you could get the drop on them. As always, DM's call!
Well 5e leaves a lot up to the dm
I feel like one of the big bits to this is that 5e doesn't explicitly factor the scaling difficulty of perception checks over distances the way other similar rulesets do. In 3.5, the circumstance was handled by applying a huge stealth penalty for attacking, making it next to impossible to stay hidden in most circumstances, but at extreme ranges, this penalty to hiding was easily offset by the penalty to try and see/hear that far.
The problem with doing things that way though, is calculating the DCs gets pretty arduous, and can really slow down the game if the players and DM involved don't know the bonuses and penalties offhand, and you get bogged down in sifting through rulebooks.
So personally, what I might do in a situation like that is rather than make hiding impossible in a case like that, and instead call for checks or use passive perception, and try and either assign DC's accordingly, or apply bonuses/penalties to the opposed checks.
Kinda standard operating procedure for situations that seem to fall outside of the intended scope of the core rules: when all else fails, try and make a dice roll out of it somehow. That way whether the chances are low or high, it doesn't feel arbitrary in the face of an uncertain situation.
As a DM I love stealth with Dryads... Between pass without trace and tree stride, you can pop around the group and smack them with a shillelagh.
I have allowed, and requested, what I call "story kills" which is exactly the kill without rolls. I let it work/ try it on minions and other mooks, to move the story forward. For bosses or more advanced enemies I will allow them to try, but will usually resolve it as a surprise attack.
The look on a PC's face when they attempt the story kill, and I describe the sound of the dagger scratching across the metal gorget is always amazing.
You mentioned the idea of a surprised foe being able to see you, and when you said that my mind immediately jumped to batman. One thing he does is jump from above right in front of a foe; he still gets a few swings in before the foe can react, whether against mooks or against big villains. The difference is one has the AC and HP to survive that surprise round and fight back
This was a lifesaver, thank you so much! You guys are awesome.
Question of group checks: Should the DM require the group to decide before or after rolling whether they are making a group stealth check or individual stealth rolls?
Slipping by enemies works very well on, say, the open road. Remember, however, that in other circumstances (for example, a dungeon) leaving enemies there may cut off a retreat should you find it necessary...
Thanks for the video.
I have the house rule three rounds hidden, preparapring to kill a enemy, you auto crit on the first attack, but you can not take any hostile action towards the targets near them during this time.
So, for example if you were to casually stab a guy in the middle of negotiations, he would be surprised, but you wouldn’t get advantage
Great explanation guys! Just want to clarify: if on a turn a player attacks, then breaks line of sight (behind an obstacle for example) the player can ABSOLUTELY roll a stealth check. The restrictions to attempting stealth is, as you stated, clearly being seen by enemy and "being in the open". If a person has broken line of sight, neither restriction applies. Your reasoning for not allowing it "everyone knows you're there", while totally reasonable, is not a restriction under the rules. So you are playing by a "table rule" not the PHB rules.
Many thanks for these explanations. I'm certainly not a noob DM (running for 30+ years) but only really just getting into 5e and re-learning Stealth with regard to character abilities. I'm seeing (no pun intended) that Stealth outwardly appears to make the Rogue (particularly) an easily OP class if not adjudicated correctly. In particular, the bonus action Hide, seemed to be a lot easier than it should be, my take is that in order to make the attempt the character needs to move (or at least expend move) to do so, in order to then utilise cover or concealment, before they can make a stealth check. Therefore, whilst after making a melee attack (successful or otherwise), it is very difficult to achieve unless the character has surprise (as opposed to just advantage).
As far as stealth kills go, I usually make my non-rogue characters do a combo of stealth and slight of hand rolls (and some other rolls depending on what they how to kill them). For example, I had a fighting that wanted to sneak up behind the guard, cover the guards mouth, slit his throat, and hide the body around the corner. They had to roll stealth, slight of hand, athletics (to catch the body), and slight of hand again (to hide the body. They failed to catch the body and the other guards were alerted.
We were playing Strahd (still are) and in this little hose we had just gotten to, our party started to explore, due to one of the players dropping out and us replacing him, our new compatriot was a kenku rogue, who stealthed his way into the house, avoiding detection by the party. Except for me, as I was rolling high in my perception checks while looting the kitchen. He was quite embarrassed.
I'm dealing with this very issue right now. My party finished the last round of D&D stumbling upon a couple of sleeping goblins. We will pick up at this point next round.
My brother and I had an unlikely duo. A half giant barbarian and a goblin rogue. My goblin rogue would hide in the half Giants backpack and during combat he would pop out and fire arrows at targets. It was fairly effective, even if I had to roll with disadvantage at times due to the half Giants movements
* remembers playing Skyrim and successfully hiding from bandits after sniping one of their number *
I have a halfling Swashbuckler and he is awesome. Luck, naturally stealthy, and plenty of swagger. My DM allows me to pop out from behind the tank then pop back behind and hide. Because of the halflings ability to freely move through an enemy if he is larger than the halfling then you pop through and hide behind nearby cover or another party member.
Everyone always forgets the Gloomstalker 💔
Fighter Lvl 4 (arcane archer) monk lvl 5 (way of shadow) ranger lvl 7(gloomstalker) rogue lvl 4 (Assassin) stupidly stealthy!
Infiltration potential? Pact of the Chain Warlocks. They can have a familiar that has the ability to be permanently invisible, capable of flight, and things like an Imp or a Quasit can shapechange into a spider or centipede respectively, which logically allows them to squeeze through really tiny gaps (one would argue that medieval-esque keyholes, likely present in DnD worlds, would be wide enough for such creatures to slip through), largely eliminating the need for lockpicks etc. to navigate an enemy building. That makes them perfect for scouting and data espionage, although less so for item retrieval missions (if it has to shapechange to squeeze through a gap, then it's a pickle, because it can't transform items it's holding).
All that while the Warlock can preceive through the familiar's senses and communicate with it via telepathy over an unlimited range as long as they're in the same dimension (as opposed to the 100ft limitation imposed by the base "find familiar" spell).
And to put a cherry on top of that cake, there's a spell from a new adventure (Lost Laboratory of Kwalish) called "Flock of Familiars". It's a 2nd level spell that summons 3 familiars for 1 hour (non-concentration) +1 familiar per spell level above 2nd (-1 familiar if you already have one from "find familiar"). Additionally, for whatever reason, those familiars can share their senses with the caster when they're within 1 mile, as opposed to 100ft from the "find familiar" (maybe because they aren't permanent), so that's some serious scouting right there.
KubinWielki i remember hearing someone talk about how “rogues ruined d and d” because basically everything a rogue does. Is stuff the entire party should be doing. Hiding, picking locks, gathering information. Conning foes and charming hoes. Magic uses can even deck themselves out in spells tailored to do just that like your warlock example using his familiar to scout, gain information. And maybe even pick locks if it transforms into a small spider and messes with the tumblers a bit.
In the kingsman one of the members of the kingsman is killed really early on with a stealth kill. Though he wasn't a main character he was a high level one. He was cut in two.
Was in a group that scored a collective stealth of average 19 with 2 nat 20 rolls. The DM ruled that we as a party had rolled high enough that we saw where the enemies were and could approach to 30 feet undetected. There was a bell the enemies could toll to summon further troops, but because we wrecked them so fast between surprise and good rolls we ended combat before the 6 could even move. The DM was kinda annoyed but laughing as the epic battle he had planned got completely destroyed by a lucky moment.
In my first battle with a new party at level 6, reinforcements for the enemy had just arrived and there were ~15 bandits staring myself (bard) and our goblin rogue down. I was already hurt so the goblin decides to draw aggro by taunting the bandits (I think he missed a ranged attack too) then running behind a bush to hide. He succeeded on the stealth check marvelously and all the bandits focused on me. I was rendered unconscious, but I didn't die thanks to the goblin running out and dragging me behind cover before giving me a potion.
The first 2 magical items I try to acquire as a rogue are the immovable rod and boots of elven kind. Throw in a way to get invisible (like being a 7th level AT) and the only things you need to work around are environmental interactions, scent and the asshole that can see invisible creatures lol
I have a shadow marked elf whom I like to call a gloom assassin which is an assassin/gloom stalker multiclass. She had also had acquired lost family heirlooms boots of elvenkind and cloak of elvenkind.
Very good. Instant kills are a great rule, but you still need to roll to make it work and a high success threshold is best. Changing stealth, backstab, instant kill rules is fine, but WotC did a poor job writing the Stealth sections in the core books. This caused lots of confusion and rules lawyering that should not have happened. They also did a poor job emphasizing (and people did a poor job reading) that rules should be taken as suggestions and made to fit your group. 'All rule are optional' --GG
Thanks for dislosing the source! I listened to the podcast.
I was playing a halfling, arcane trickster in an ice cave. Light fog, dim light. I came around a bend in the cave to an open chamber, stealthy af(nat 20+ bonuses and such). I saw 3 guards with their backs to me and started to move towards them when some 12 other guards that had been obscured from view saw me and attacked me with surprise. Did not end well for me. Lucky for me, the party wasn’t too far behind and ended up saving my bacon thanks to a message spell.
I'm playing a lightfoot halflink rogue with a goliath barbarian in the party (Just finished session 0 in a Strahd campaign). I plan on hiding behind him quite often.
One time my ranger snuck through the front door of Gah’s base in Storm King’s Thunder because he got separated from the group and failed a survival check to find the tracks of his party going in the back door. I went through the front door while they went through the back and we met up somewhere in the middle. I was crazy stressed going through it. I thought I was going to get spotted and have to run from an army of ogres and giants. I was lucky I didn’t (but the halfling I saw roasting on a fire wasn’t so lucky I wanted to stay stealthed). I felt so good getting through that.
on the note of stealth kills I like to use the 3.5 "coup de grace" mechanic, where you take a full round to perform an attack that automatically scores a critical. It means if you are good you can get that extra surprise damage but it still allows the person to have caught the garrotte or catch your hand with theirs just at the last second
5e supports automatic critical when creatures are unconscious and paralyzed, so there is a precedent for a situation when you have truly caught someone unprepared. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I thought you could only coup de grace dying or unconscious creatures in 3.5?
Im not sure to be honest, I only played it back then so I could be remembering a house rule that was given as if fact. My dm back then made a lot of rules that he taught us as if they were core... I didnt know spells just worked until pathfinder came out
Dungeon Dudes
Damaging Helpless Defenders from 3e Player’s Handbook p. 129:
“Even if you have lots of hit points, however, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye. When a character can’t avoid damage or deflect blows somehow, when he’s really helpless, he’s in trouble.”
Helpless Defenders p. 133 same Player’s Handbook:
“A helpless foe-one who is bound, held, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy- is an easy target.
Regular Attack: A melee attack against a helpless defender gets a +4 circumstance bpnus on the attack roll. A ranged attack gets no special bonus. A helpless defender (naturally) can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).
Coup de Grace:
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he still must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
It’s overkill, but a rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening foes because it involves focused concentration and methodical action.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits, such as a golem.”
Hope this helps.
I wouldnt give out auto crits for stealth attacks, because that makes the Rogue Assassin completely redundant.
Regarding Dungeon Dudes reply: That is correct to my knowledge as well.
I'm finding my rogue is trying to e the facechecker too often, my guess is he is Assassin subclass so he's greedy for the free crit's. ut it's getting him KO'd a LOT! (4x in the last fight).
16:06, a darkmantel would also benefit greatly from the skulker feat.
Cloak of displacement on a light foot halfling rogue (3 feet tall). For just a moment he manuvers behind his comrade's cape, flips his hood on so nobody knows his "exact location", and then he quickly uses his bonus action to hide.
I was once a Rouge that specialized as an Arcane Trickster. On my way out of a heavily guarded boarding school that I was temporarily attending to learn about magic.
This beautiful carriage rolls up in front guarded by two horseman and two bodyguards. The owner of the vehicle left and went into the school and thru the open door I noticed a very delicate crystalline box covered in gold trim.
The front guards posted themselves in front of the door and the two horsemen went on patrol.
So I grabbed a snake tossed it next to the horses made my way over to the carriage and hid underneath of it and pulled the pin holding the harnesses to the carriage and made a hissing noise.
The horses bolted and the guards effectively ran after them the horse men tried to get a head and the guards tried to lead them back.
In that time I unlocked the door stole the ring inside. Cast an illusion to hide my true face even helped the guards put the horses back petting to arrive at the scene by chance.
I went on my way a few gold richer for my troubles. Changed the color of my cape and returned my face to normal. I was then ironically given a ride back to the nearest town by the same people I robbed an hour and a half back. As they questioned me about a red hair guy, with a big bushy beard wearing a black traveling cloak.
I lied and said I seen him pass me by and left it at that.
Bagged a nice magic ring and got paid for the trouble.
Three things about stealth kills from a ninjutsu instructor (meaning I have more training in this than a laymen but nowhere near something like a navy seal)
1 it is very very very hard to simply get close enough to someone to remove them. Stealth checks in d&d I think are more for evading or going around a group of people than approaching them silently.
2 there is virtually no such thing as a "nonlethal" removal. If you want to knock someone out from behind, itll make them bleed out cause you busted their head open and give them brain damage from not being woken up quickly. If you want to choke them out, they wake up as soon as you let go. If you want to use a tranq dart or something, its something you have to mix heavy enough to make someone fall asleep and not enough to kill them, judging by their weight. Not really something you can do on the fly.
3 it is super hard to remove someone also simply on the grounds that someone inexperienced in this finds it extremely difficult not only to take a life, but to take a life of someone who isnt directly a threat to you.
I think I can fix true strike target under the effect of this cantrip is suppressed by one AC along with all like creatures in castors field of view. Castors AC is also buffed by 2 against targeted creature