The chicken industry’s worker safety problem

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  • čas přidán 4. 11. 2021
  • There's a human cost to factory-processed chicken.
    Subscribe to our channel! goo.gl/0bsAjO
    In the 1960s, the US began a love affair with chicken, and poultry workers paid the cost. Over the past few decades, poultry processing line speeds have increased to meet demand. But that’s happened in tandem with the decline of unions and deregulation of the industry. The result is a high rate of workplace injuries and repetitive motion disorders, with gaps in workplace safety oversight.
    For this video, we contacted Tyson Foods Inc. and the National Chicken Council for comment. The NCC, the poultry industry lobby that has repeatedly requested increases in line speeds, wrote that faster line speeds do not affect the pace of work because plants will add additional staff and lines to accommodate speed increases. Through our reporting, we weren’t able to substantiate this claim, and the NCC did not respond when we asked for an example or for any evidence that this is the industry standard.
    The NCC also mentioned that other countries run poultry line speeds as fast as, if not faster than, the US. It’s difficult to do an apples-to-apples comparison with other countries. Claire Kelloway, reporter and researcher for OpenMarkets, noted that in Europe, for example, factories are typically smaller than US plants, and have higher rates of unionization and more industry safety regulation. The regulating agencies enforce longer breaks and switching up job roles to avoid repetition. Even so, working conditions in poultry plants are still criticized there.
    While the NCC cited a decline in workplace injuries, advocates and experts say that this data is unreliable. It relies on workers reporting injuries to the government agency that regulates workplace safety, OSHA. There are a number of reasons a poultry worker might not report an injury or illness, including language barriers or fears over their citizenship status. Worker and advocate-led surveys show high levels of injury, here are examples:
    www.splcenter.org/sites/defau...
    foodchainworkers.org/wp-conte...
    www.uusc.org/sites/default/fi...
    Tyson disputes, without evidence, the petition that Magaly Licolli presented on behalf of the workers at the Berry Street poultry plant in Springdale, Arkansas. The company said it was misrepresented to those who signed it and that there were duplicate signatures. Tyson also noted that it offered raises to poultry workers in 2021 amid a labor shortage.
    We also contacted OSHA for comment. They noted that they issue citations or fines to any workplace found by federal inspectors to have violated their safety standards, but confirmed that it is under the jurisdiction of the USDA to determine line speeds. They also said that they do not track data on the use of the chemicals we mention in the video: chlorine, ammonia, and peracetic acid.
    While reporting this episode I read Christopher Leonard’s The Meat Racket, a deep-dive report into the history of Tyson and the poultry industry:
    bookshop.org/books/the-meat-r...
    More reading on poultry plants in Europe:
    thefern.org/2020/06/how-did-e...
    How meat consumption has changed in the past 50 years:
    ourworldindata.org/grapher/pe...
    More coverage of the failed OSHA ergonomics rule:
    www.motherjones.com/food/2020...
    Deborah Berkowitz, former OSHA chief of staff and director of the Worker Health & Safety Program of the National Employment Law Project, was a crucial source for this story. Here is her recent congressional testimony on workplace safety:
    www.nelp.org/publication/test...
    Some reporting on whether more automation could help reduce workplace injuries.
    www.wsj.com/articles/meatpack...
    More on the history of anti-union politics, specifically in Arkansas:
    www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...
    For more about the impact of Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle:
    www.nytimes.com/interactive/p...
    Watch Episode 1, How 4 companies control the beef industry: • How 4 companies contro...
    Watch Episode 3, Hog farming has a massive poop problem: • Hog farming has a mass...
    Watch our full video catalog: goo.gl/IZONyE

Komentáře • 1K

  • @Vox
    @Vox  Před 2 lety +336

    This is the second episode in a series of three by producer Laura Bult and Vox’s Future Perfect team, which explores big problems and the big ideas to solve them. This series explores the human cost of the meat industry.
    You can watch the first episode “How 4 Companies Control the Beef Industry,” here: czcams.com/video/3_hCLjUrK1E/video.html

  • @sambarrett3059
    @sambarrett3059 Před 2 lety +1418

    I hate to tell you, Tyson sent the director of public relations because they see it as a public relations issue, not a hr issue

    • @rogierbesselink9364
      @rogierbesselink9364 Před 2 lety +87

      Indeed, that clearly reveals their priorities

    • @Beelzebubby91
      @Beelzebubby91 Před 2 lety +22

      Well, if I buy chicken I’ll check to see where it came from first. Cant support this.

    • @p0kem0nlvl1
      @p0kem0nlvl1 Před 2 lety +5

      I love Tyson chicken

    • @lost.in.scaradise
      @lost.in.scaradise Před 2 lety +17

      And this is the crux of the problem. Profit over people. 🧐

    • @maknyc1539
      @maknyc1539 Před 2 lety +1

      amog

  • @LisaBeergutHolst
    @LisaBeergutHolst Před 2 lety +1080

    "No access to a union" just means "not allowed to form a union". Unions aren't some elusive natural resource; they're made by workers themselves.

    • @murdelabop
      @murdelabop Před 2 lety +47

      Yup. The wonderful world of Right To Work (For Less) laws.

    • @indulgentenhydra5997
      @indulgentenhydra5997 Před 2 lety +33

      Yeah whenever people say they don't/can't access a union I always feel simultaneously angry and exhausted for them. So many of these workers are migrants, probably here without imperial approval, and aren't protected. I hate it here. My family are all immigrants, and so many of my relatives suffered similarly awful conditions on plantations and other service and farm labor. What a nightmare

    • @cellonpot
      @cellonpot Před 2 lety +15

      A decline of Unions during the 80s? 🤔 thank you coccaine and Ronald Reagan!

    • @SpaseGoast
      @SpaseGoast Před 2 lety +12

      @@cellonpot And illegal immigration. You're far less likely to unionize when your boss threatens to have you deported. You also won't speak up about your unfair low wage.

    • @sxmdt
      @sxmdt Před 2 lety

      @@SpaseGoast unfair unjust judgement much lol

  • @MarkusArkus5
    @MarkusArkus5 Před 2 lety +1337

    Two amputations per week... That gave me chills.

    • @RJGMorris
      @RJGMorris Před 2 lety +59

      That's awful and something definitely needs to be done to protect workers. But it seems wired to not give more mention to the billions of chickens getting there heads chopped off and being kept in awful conditions so that we can have a sandwich. Is our taste pleasure really more important than the life and suffering of another animal?

    • @zil1832
      @zil1832 Před 2 lety +20

      @@RJGMorris but when Indians raise the same exact issues they are termed as radical "hindu nationalists". Its a complex world.

    • @darhaha3391
      @darhaha3391 Před 2 lety +1

      Same... 😵😪

    • @birdrocket
      @birdrocket Před 2 lety +34

      @@RJGMorris it’s not weird, it’s a story about worker safety.

    • @raghavendravishwas5929
      @raghavendravishwas5929 Před 2 lety

      😥

  • @knusprigeschuhsohle7939
    @knusprigeschuhsohle7939 Před 2 lety +290

    this is actually terrifying
    I think popular discussions about meat consumption dont focus enough on the human costs at all

    • @knusprigeschuhsohle7939
      @knusprigeschuhsohle7939 Před 2 lety +13

      @@mdstate829 they're not the focus of this video but yes people love to dismiss those but at least they're talked about when discussing meat consumption

    • @tammyd.970
      @tammyd.970 Před 2 lety +5

      @@mdstate829 humans are animals... something that tends to be missing from a critical animal studies approach. Just as important to address the abuse of humans in this situation as the other animals. If more people did, we might start to see that the two are inextricably linked. One could question how many of these plants would be open if they could not rely on workers from vulnerable and marginalized communities, if they had to pay wages commensurate with risk.
      This video does not address this point at all, and that's a shame. Meatpacking used to be populated by white men who supported unions and were well paid, then this changed starting in the '70s. The demographics of workers completely changed, not by coincidence. Wages had been higher than that of automotive workers, so one of the highest in manufacturing. This was closer to matching the risk. Now people are paid far far less, but probably still more than fastfood workers.
      It is not possible to understand the suffering of animals and the injustices against them until we also understand the suffering and injustices against the humans asked to do this kind of work.
      (Just in case it is not absolutely crystal, i do not support the suffering of any animals and do not support this industry, even run under the best conditions. I just do not think that excluding humans in the equation is helping the cause.)

    • @jellybeansi
      @jellybeansi Před rokem

      @@mdstate829 Their comment didn't implicitly dismiss the astronomical animal costs...

  • @1.4142
    @1.4142 Před 2 lety +141

    Here are two new units to add to the imperial system: chickens per minute and amputations per week.

  • @el_chapito4567
    @el_chapito4567 Před 2 lety +102

    As my mom that works in a chicken plant here in Arkansas I can agree with this . My mom comes back from work in pain every day, in her fingers/hands specifically joint pain , of nerve pains, and is getting surgery on her shoulder next week. She has been there for almost 23 years now maybe more but, as her child it’s very hard to see her come back from work everyday tired, stressed out,in pain. They act almost as if humans where machines.

    • @tammyd.970
      @tammyd.970 Před 2 lety

      Would your mom be interested in doing an indepth interview/study?

    • @chadvanryn1327
      @chadvanryn1327 Před 2 lety

      I’m a job we’re your hands could get cut off you need to realize that your mom is lucky to have hand in the first place. Your ignorant

    • @Insomniac-xu9ds
      @Insomniac-xu9ds Před měsícem

      Is it ok foods?

  • @IamHat
    @IamHat Před 2 lety +573

    20 hours of paid sick time a year... A year. Yeah it's better than nothing but effectively that's nothing.

    • @MarcMTG
      @MarcMTG Před 2 lety +26

      It's a joke

    • @jeremias-serus
      @jeremias-serus Před 2 lety +4

      It’s too much, frankly.

    • @cityuser
      @cityuser Před 2 lety +11

      What if you get sick more than 20 hours a year? Do they expect you to show up anyway? Will they lower your pay? Fire you?
      Genuinely asking. How does it work in the US?

    • @andreaolavarrieta
      @andreaolavarrieta Před 2 lety +5

      @@cityuser usually you can still take sick time but you won’t be paid for it

    • @Tustin2121
      @Tustin2121 Před 2 lety +11

      @⸻ - Congrats on being part of the problem.

  • @mehere8038
    @mehere8038 Před 2 lety +746

    Interesting. Living outside the US (in Australia) I'm wondering what conditions are like in my country & I'm sure a lot of others watching are too. In future episodes, could you consider mentioning how other countries compare? I think a lot of people would find that really interesting, either letting us know this is a problem in our country too, or showing this is a US only issue. Either way would add to the impact of the report imo

    • @jojitogonzales
      @jojitogonzales Před 2 lety +113

      Vox doesn't think people in other countries exist

    • @JamesBu11
      @JamesBu11 Před 2 lety +82

      @@jojitogonzales They frequently mention rates of other countries to compare

    • @mehere8038
      @mehere8038 Před 2 lety +8

      @FURRY GAYMERS AGAINIST TRUMP especially not furry humans huh?

    • @walterbrunswick
      @walterbrunswick Před 2 lety +44

      @FURRY GAYMERS AGAINIST TRUMP I helped slaughter chickens in Ukraine, with my ex-wife's father ...
      you turn the chicken upside down, and it's completely calm, then chop the head off with a Soviet axe ... no pain no suffering
      they were all home-raised, ate well, had a good life
      I don't support these massive farms

    • @meltedelevator
      @meltedelevator Před 2 lety +26

      I looked it up and here in scotland (The UK as a whole can be applied) we have alot more regulations and factory workers have less injuries per capita than america

  • @nataliecruzat9999
    @nataliecruzat9999 Před 2 lety +127

    My dad works construction, and he’s been hurt before. Hearing that his job is less dangerous than working in a poultry plant is astounding and absolutely awful

    • @PHlophe
      @PHlophe Před 2 lety +4

      Nathalie, makes you think don't it. over production . chicken is the equivalent of fast fashion in food.

  • @adamjb21
    @adamjb21 Před 2 lety +998

    This happens in almost every industry its all about Capitalism. Raise profits so the upper management gets bigger bonuses Meanwhile the workers get a $20 gift card yearly bonus

    • @samthegreatman
      @samthegreatman Před 2 lety +14

      exactly

    • @briandamage7808
      @briandamage7808 Před 2 lety +10

      Well said amigo

    • @gasun1274
      @gasun1274 Před 2 lety +13

      this is corporatism. if it were capitalism the whole line would have been automated.

    • @vysharra
      @vysharra Před 2 lety +4

      I’ve never gotten a bonus, not even a gift card. I’m college educated.

    • @TheMADC999
      @TheMADC999 Před 2 lety +31

      @@gasun1274 capitalism comes in different shapes or form, corporatism is just another form.
      They all have one thing in common which is exploitation. This is why workers union are extremely important to balance out the power between employers and workers.

  • @jeffcrumpler8905
    @jeffcrumpler8905 Před 2 lety +213

    I've worked poultry in the Ozarks. It's all pretty accurate. I wonder if she works for George's or Tyson.

    • @khrashingphantom9632
      @khrashingphantom9632 Před 2 lety +5

      Probably Purdue.

    • @jeffcrumpler8905
      @jeffcrumpler8905 Před 2 lety +3

      @@khrashingphantom9632 maybe. I've not heard anything good about them.

    • @jsplit9716
      @jsplit9716 Před 2 lety +2

      I mean there's only 4 or 5 companies

    • @jeffcrumpler8905
      @jeffcrumpler8905 Před 2 lety +1

      @@jsplit9716 yeah I mean Tyson is everywhere and I worked for George's so those were the two I thought of immediately but there's a few more.

    • @waterbottleman5511
      @waterbottleman5511 Před 2 lety

      I think Tyson

  • @zayanmendoza4506
    @zayanmendoza4506 Před 2 lety +163

    “If you don’t care about the animals , then Atleast have compassion for the people “. -Will smith

    • @mmmmmmmmmmm111
      @mmmmmmmmmmm111 Před 2 lety +27

      Ideally care about both and give up meat.

    • @munk3064
      @munk3064 Před 2 lety +10

      @@mmmmmmmmmmm111 It tastes good

    • @YukariAkiyama
      @YukariAkiyama Před 2 lety +8

      @@mmmmmmmmmmm111 It tastes good

    • @laleloli
      @laleloli Před 2 lety +15

      @@munk3064 What is more valuable the life and wellbeing of an actual conscious, living, feeling being, or your short satisfaction of taste?
      This is not just about animal welfare, it's about human welfare and even global welfare as a whole, supporting the meat, chicken, dairy and egg industries and having empathy is a paradox.

    • @munk3064
      @munk3064 Před 2 lety +5

      @@laleloli Taste. I don't care for lesser beings. We should be able to enjoy things, not them.

  • @center8922
    @center8922 Před 2 lety +61

    I worked at one of these places where they'd pack chicken breast meat. The safety procedures were ok. But the way they treated the workers was abhorrent. They would rush them. Blame them if the machines weren't packing the meat right. Needless to say they fired me because I spoke up. Now, I'm jobless. :(

    • @nic1512
      @nic1512 Před 2 lety +5

      I hope you found a new job in the present day, sorry to see the way you were treated

    • @John_Smith_86
      @John_Smith_86 Před 2 lety +1

      Yea... you probably shouldn't have whined

  • @felixthehuman
    @felixthehuman Před 2 lety +103

    I don't think I've ever worked anywhere where OSHA just showed up, unannounced.

    • @SpeedyRV
      @SpeedyRV Před 2 lety +8

      In 24 years of construction work I have only seen OSHA twice and both were after deaths on site.

    • @potapotapotapotapotapota
      @potapotapotapotapotapota Před 2 lety

      OHSA too busy with COVID nowadays

    • @felixthehuman
      @felixthehuman Před 2 lety +1

      @diane Taylor not if the person involved feels safe calling, and is aware of the regs, but a lot of the times at a workplace there is very much a "we're-all-on-the-same-team" mentality. Employers would take workplace safety regulations more seriously if they knew that an inspector could show up whenever and there would be consequences if they weren't following the rules.

  • @harmonyam
    @harmonyam Před 2 lety +209

    This needs to change the people who work are valuable and change should be adjusted for the future

    • @fynkozari9271
      @fynkozari9271 Před 2 lety +1

      its 2021, cant they cut the chicken using a laser machine or something?

    • @wallywallendo
      @wallywallendo Před 2 lety

      @@fynkozari9271 if it was profitable they would

  • @aerofpv2109
    @aerofpv2109 Před 2 lety +134

    Keeping the poor poorer is what gives the rich power. It's so evident that the people with lots of money only want more money.

  • @NerdRapper
    @NerdRapper Před 2 lety +226

    An industry that makes its money exploiting living beings also exploits its workers. This is sad all around. Thank you for this coverage.

  • @fieldofreeds8581
    @fieldofreeds8581 Před 2 lety +60

    Looking at the meat industry as a whole... there is literally no perspective in which it's moral or acceptable... the human workers, human health, animal suffering, and environmental concerns are all SO bad. When will we stop supporting these industries?
    They are the worst industries in the world on the scale of suffering.

  • @d-extra5814
    @d-extra5814 Před 2 lety +150

    The Meat Industry is horrific

    • @talianicole
      @talianicole Před 2 lety +9

      I second that

    • @Snugglelol
      @Snugglelol Před 2 lety +10

      @@noi000 been vegetarian for only 23 years :/ but then again I'm only 23 years old

    • @yagikidd2300
      @yagikidd2300 Před 2 lety +1

      Sure is. Those poor animals get treated like garbage & sadly so do the workers. I personally don’t eat meat but without meat workers/farmers a lot of people won’t have food. They should be treated better 👏🏽

    • @namelesskat4814
      @namelesskat4814 Před 2 lety

      @Carpe Diem What do you mean by a horrific demand for meat? What's so horrific about people wanting meat?

  • @downingbots
    @downingbots Před 2 lety +237

    Temporarily bracketing the animal rights conversation (I'm vegan, and I do take it seriously)-What sort of world are we looking to create for humans? We spend a third of our adult lives at work. Good quality of life requires high working standards and working class control in the jobs we have. Otherwise we're just going to be mistreated and ignored because it's not profitable for the business owners to care about our genuine problems in the workplace.

    • @SuperPrem
      @SuperPrem Před 2 lety +17

      I'm a vegetarian and I agree that this is the problem. We need stricter regulation, if not for Animal rights, it should be for a healthy world world for humans.

    • @Mesuxyxrxbskxkxyp
      @Mesuxyxrxbskxkxyp Před 2 lety

      @@SuperPrem you think stricter regulations are going to help?
      We need people, especially women, to design and manufacture better, safer, more efficient equipment. Gov policies will only make things worse!

    • @Mystro256
      @Mystro256 Před 2 lety +30

      @@Mesuxyxrxbskxkxyp stricter policy pushes people to innovate to make safer technology faster. Capitalism alone adds very little pressure to innovate for safety sake; it only pushes to make more money, with safety as a by product if it happens to make them more money.

    • @meltedelevator
      @meltedelevator Před 2 lety +5

      I'm not a vegan myself but seeing the pain the workers go through in the meat plants in america is heart breaking luckily here in the UK we've got more restrictions to make workers safer

    • @Bisquick
      @Bisquick Před 2 lety +2

      Indeed, as usual, the _actual_ choice for humanity, should we choose to you know _actually_ reconcile with reality, is just as Rosa Luxemburg put it in 1918 Germany before of course being executed by the freikorps paramilitary (later becoming the SS, shocker) at the behest of Ebert's SPD _social democratic_ party (and we know the rest): socialism or (continued) barbarism.

  • @01joja
    @01joja Před 2 lety +61

    My biggest feeling from all things that Vox puts up is that USA really need to start getting there Unions to work better. The workers needs to have a say in every industry and from my experience unions is a good way to make that work. So is it possible that you can make more videos that explains the problems that unions experience vox?

    • @tammyd.970
      @tammyd.970 Před 2 lety

      Good request.
      I can tell you that unionism was high in meatpacking, almost 95% before the '80s, excluding the south. Then companies took tips from poultry plants and 'chickenized' their processing lines, increased the use of technology and decreased skills needed. They then moved all the plants or shuttered them and built new ones in rural areas of Right to Work states in the High plains and Midwest. These states make it illegal for union dues to be taken from paychecks by the employer or to require union membership. The industry moved completely away from the urban union strongholds. The meatpacking unions then had to merge and then merge with unions that represented other types of workers and were less bold. They just did not have the same leverage after the industry shifted.
      It might be of interest that union rates in other fields and industries was much higher as well, across the board in the 50s and 60s, but that also significantly dropped.
      I, too, would be very interested to know why unionization has decreased. It is obvious today that it is more necessary than ever.

  • @ReturntoSpender
    @ReturntoSpender Před 2 lety +36

    The hands! Those swollen hands!

  • @ceo_k9jc12am5
    @ceo_k9jc12am5 Před 2 lety +11

    Worked at Mountaire Farms in Lumber Bridge, NC for 4 years. Debone, Breast Trim/Packout, Wings, etc. Quit in 2017. Still get random sharp pains, the winters are brutal, and my hands can randomly go numb or get stuck in a stiff position when opening anything in a twist motion. Definitely hardest job I ever had with the worst pay.

  • @connor4582
    @connor4582 Před 2 lety +187

    Sure, these horrible physical working conditions aren’t inherent to the process of meat production. However, one thing that is inherent to this industry and one that should be talked about far more than it is in this video, is the psychological and mental effects working in this type of setting has on workers. Slaughterhouses are brutal and torturous places for not only the animals involved in the process, but also the workers who must work through that suffering each and everyday. While there’s always potential to improve working conditions here and there, I simply don’t believe this industry will ever be a champion of worker wellbeing and satisfaction...

    • @Happy_Shopper
      @Happy_Shopper Před 2 lety +6

      I can't think of a job I want to do less.

    • @ConvictedFelon2024
      @ConvictedFelon2024 Před 2 lety +10

      I think chickens are a lot better to work with than pigs and cows though, given the information I heard from this video and from my dad who frequently visits slaughterhouses as a consultant for a pest control company. At least with chickens the "killing part" is fully automated. With cows, however, I was told that there is a worker who stuns them by firing a stud into their head, then there's a whole line of workers who slash the cow open to spill its contents while it's still alive. I can only imagine how traumatizing _that_ must be. By comparison, being an abortion doctor is probably nothing. The inhumanity of our species towards others never fails to amaze me, and yet we have the _audacity_ to say (well some of us, anyway) that taking the life of a fetus that isn't even 18 weeks old (and hence cannot feel pain) while it's still in the mother's womb is somehow "immoral." That has to be the most outrageous contradiction I've ever seen. I'm so glad I gave up eating beef and pork 10 years ago. Don't miss it one bit.

    • @connor4582
      @connor4582 Před 2 lety +4

      Matthew Walton could not agree more. I went vegetarian when I was 16 at the start of this new year. It never fails to amaze me the amount of hypocrisy people hold in their morality surrounding the value of life in its many different stages and forms. It makes no sense to me why people find it immoral to exterminate a clump of human cells with absolutely no consciousness, yet support the mass slaughter of other forms of life which actually exhibit sentience and display emotions, intelligence, and suffering. The thing that has surprised me most with going vegetarian is that it isn’t as common as I believe it should be. In my entire life I’ve only ever been aware of meeting two other vegetarians/vegans. In my mind it’s common sense that the way treat animals is wrong and that we should refrain from supporting these industries. I understand cognitive dissonance is a strong force to overcome, but it still amazes how few people have the courage to overcome that barrier.

    • @Happy_Shopper
      @Happy_Shopper Před 2 lety +6

      @@connor4582 I think a lot of people's unwillingness to give up animal products is that it has been normalised and reinforced since birth. It's a part of most people's upbringing that eating meat is normal so convincing them otherwise is extremely difficult

    • @donwaters2022
      @donwaters2022 Před 2 lety

      Its a horrible situation. But we all can't be non profit CEOs making 7 figures a year.

  • @colechapman6976
    @colechapman6976 Před 2 lety +20

    Yep. This industry is also bad because they target low income areas where they are the only employers and employ immigrants who won’t be able to report these issues to OSHA because they might get deported then.

    • @tammyd.970
      @tammyd.970 Před 2 lety +1

      I think it's pretty important to differentiate 'immigrants' from workers of questionable legal status. Immigrants don't get deported for making a complaint to OSHA, undocumented workers do. Not to disagree with your other points.

  • @mwangi8623
    @mwangi8623 Před 2 lety +24

    "it's about the moral duties that we have to these workers". They should put that on a billboard in every city in the world

  • @Chaca811
    @Chaca811 Před 2 lety +21

    Brilliant piece of journalism; great quotes, great animation to demonstrate the production line and also regulatory mandates. KEEP IT UP!

  • @Ediemachuli
    @Ediemachuli Před 2 lety +11

    The only company that cares for its workers in this Industry is Los Pollos Hermanos

  • @death2hope
    @death2hope Před 2 lety +18

    Even in a union its still not great I worked at a ham plant union and we worked 32 days in a row Monday to Sunday no days off then had one day off and back to 20 days in arow before I said I had enough and got out.

    • @yahirbear
      @yahirbear Před 2 lety +5

      It depends on the union for sure but that is f*cked

    • @kaitlyn__L
      @kaitlyn__L Před 2 lety

      Yeah, unions can be weak or not fit for purpose just like regulations can be weak or not fit for purpose. Of course the solution is better (unions/regulations), rather than none (like the anti-union and anti-regulation rhetoric would have people believe).

  • @Shubham-cl4xs
    @Shubham-cl4xs Před 2 lety +34

    Sometimes I think 🤔. What are the benifits of born in developed country like USA ?? If they are also suffering for same things.

    • @mikhwanese
      @mikhwanese Před 2 lety +1

      i thought that USA is supposed to be an advanced country, the superpower one

    • @maknyc1539
      @maknyc1539 Před 2 lety

      Amog

    • @slushie.2332
      @slushie.2332 Před 2 lety +11

      Good government compared to most, good economy, good human rights etc.

    • @boost800
      @boost800 Před 2 lety +6

      it's purely lucky being born into the right, wealthy family

    • @sam08g16
      @sam08g16 Před 2 lety +20

      The US is first world for the rich and third world for the poor

  • @harunsuaidi7349
    @harunsuaidi7349 Před 2 lety +8

    As long as the power isn't in the workers' hands, the way we produce things in the economy will always have high human costs.

  • @ordaineddoodle4970
    @ordaineddoodle4970 Před 2 lety +16

    This gives a new meaning to “chicken fingers.”

  • @issaknife5710
    @issaknife5710 Před 2 lety +28

    Thanks Vox for keeping me informed.

  • @enfercesttout
    @enfercesttout Před 2 lety +21

    Upton Sinclair jumped to my mind.

  • @Thebreakdownshow1
    @Thebreakdownshow1 Před 2 lety +179

    Never before did I know this was a thing one can make a video about. I need the number for Vox’s idea generator for my channel.

    • @ohboy9429
      @ohboy9429 Před 2 lety +3

      have a sub

    • @Thebreakdownshow1
      @Thebreakdownshow1 Před 2 lety +2

      @@xzxmemoxzx Thanks for your advice I will now go ahead and shut my channel down. ONly if I know this sooner.

    • @patientzero5685
      @patientzero5685 Před 2 lety +1

      Are you kidding?

    • @Thebreakdownshow1
      @Thebreakdownshow1 Před 2 lety

      @@patientzero5685 about?

    • @launchamerica4786
      @launchamerica4786 Před 2 lety

      @@Thebreakdownshow1 I like your channel. Remember me when you hit 100k. All the best brother.

  • @samspencer7765
    @samspencer7765 Před 2 lety +16

    This makes me want to find out which companies:
    -Pay the best for their workers
    -Allow the best working conditions and slower line speeds.
    I'd happily pay double the cost for chicken for workers to be safe and well compensated for their work.
    Unionize!

  • @chinesesparrows
    @chinesesparrows Před 2 lety +30

    Thank you for clearly stating information in an easy to understand way

  • @NXNX7
    @NXNX7 Před 2 lety +16

    The worker asked to be anonymous, but you guys just gave out every single possible unique detail about her that could easily get her identified. How many people worked at the same plant in Northwest Arkansas, who speaks Spanish, who met her husband on the job, who also died of covid last year after an outbreak the factory?

  • @jc5070
    @jc5070 Před 2 lety +3

    My first job was at a Poultry plant in Gainesville, GA. I worked there for 3 days, that's the worst job that I ever had. They did not even have a fridge to store your food when you come to work,

  • @rachelxue1390
    @rachelxue1390 Před 2 lety +3

    imagine losing control over the most dexterous instruments of your body for the sake of obtaining meager earnings.

  • @fauzirahman3285
    @fauzirahman3285 Před 2 lety +9

    Surely there's something that can be learned from how other countries do it. In Australia for example, there are still strict safety and food laws, and the workers are paid a higher minimum wage and are mostly unionised, yet the poultry companies are still profitable and plentiful. There are lessons to be learned from elsewhere.

    • @kaitlyn__L
      @kaitlyn__L Před 2 lety

      They always find a way when regulated or taxed harder, but will kick and scream and say they can’t afford it every time too. The USA seems to be among the best at believing them when they say it like they always do, but other countries do it too, just to a lesser degree.

    • @pong9000
      @pong9000 Před 2 lety

      Australian companies aren't temped to just process chickens in Mexico.

  • @knav5216
    @knav5216 Před 2 lety +8

    Our factory workers have paid sick and vacation leaves. Thanks to a dictator we had years back. Even if we're just a developing country, at least our workers are treated like humans.

    • @The14541
      @The14541 Před 2 lety

      Dictator? Where r u come from bro?

  • @luiscianciardo4095
    @luiscianciardo4095 Před 2 lety +38

    "The national chicken council "

  • @beyrutphl
    @beyrutphl Před 2 lety +46

    "they're taking our jobs" 🙏

  • @RangerRyke
    @RangerRyke Před 2 lety +8

    I’m normally quite critical of your videos but this was fantastically informative. Always grateful for the prospective.

  • @miglemigle9575
    @miglemigle9575 Před 2 lety +96

    As someone who doesn't eat meat, I can say that I have tried to explain to many people that this industry doesn't only hurt animals but humans too. This video is a perfect representation for this, thank you Vox

    • @dynamicpenguin55
      @dynamicpenguin55 Před 2 lety +11

      I think the majority of us who do eat meat can still acknowledge that the meat industry is absolutely awful

    • @allansh828
      @allansh828 Před 2 lety +2

      why confuse a labor protection issue with eating meat?

    • @miglemigle9575
      @miglemigle9575 Před 2 lety +21

      @@allansh828 ...because by eating meat you still support these companies that treat people unfairly and give them the power to exploit workers further.

    • @newbornspirit
      @newbornspirit Před 2 lety +2

      @@miglemigle9575 that's a 1st world problem, just don't buy from them. buy from small independent butcher.

    • @martinperon4576
      @martinperon4576 Před 2 lety +1

      There's a chance people who don't care about animals don't really care about workers with a certain shade of skin colour either though... :/

  • @ostonox
    @ostonox Před 2 lety +59

    A reminder that veganism stands for workers rights as well as animal rights.
    Any reduction in the demand for animal products shifts jobs from dangerous meat production to crop agriculture, which isn’t free of abuses but eliminates a lot of these issues.
    You can make the change. I ate meat for my entire life before realizing it needed to change.

    • @KhaalixD
      @KhaalixD Před 2 lety +2

      +its way more ecofriendly with how much less carbon you release as well as better for your health since meat (especially processed meat) increase the risk of a ton of diseases. You don't have to go vegan, just try to cut back if you don't want to give it up completely :)

    • @joefrostick
      @joefrostick Před 2 lety +13

      It's probably silly to assume agriculture is immune to workers getting taken advantage of in the name of profits

    • @UnlimitedEmeralds
      @UnlimitedEmeralds Před 2 lety +10

      This problem 100% exists in the agriculture industry. I worked in the fields for 6 years and do not recommend it. I’m in my mid 20s and have chronic pain in my fingers already. The physical pain the workers go through at poultry plants are the same in almost all agricultural jobs. My family has been farm workers for 4 generations and most of them have either died of cancer or are currently dying of cancer due to pesticides and other chemicals we have to work around. The problem isn’t the food we eat, it’s the profit motive.

    • @seangt
      @seangt Před 2 lety +8

      @@joefrostick yeah, I highly doubt there aren't similar horrible working conditions on farms and non-meat processing plants. I think there are good reasons to be vegan but workers rights I don't think are one of them.

    • @ostonox
      @ostonox Před 2 lety +4

      @@joefrostick Of course, but agriculture is free of a lot of the issues you have with animal processing.
      A majority of these workers have respiratory issues that farm workers do not.
      COVID didn’t spread as readily in those conditions compared to a meat factory processing line.
      Working with animals, live or dead, opens workers up to so many potential illnesses and conditions that cannot be justified.

  • @ALAPINO
    @ALAPINO Před 2 lety +3

    It's always interesting how hard some people try to make others care about things people clearly don't care about.

  • @Todayyespresentno
    @Todayyespresentno Před rokem +2

    The factories don't need those workers. They can sell whole chickens.

  • @Dantick09
    @Dantick09 Před 2 lety +11

    Why don’t the workers agree to go slower? Truck drivers do it all the time to protest, it is called square wheels

    • @nellybutton
      @nellybutton Před 2 lety +21

      because truck drivers are not nearly as replaceable as factory workers. Not everyone can drive a truck.

    • @mehere8038
      @mehere8038 Před 2 lety +11

      cause the workers involved here are considered disposable, so they're simply removed & replaced if they try that

    • @ShadNex
      @ShadNex Před 2 lety +8

      @@nellybutton true, and also they have the means and resources to unify and plan a "full scale revolt"

    • @emmanuelcatan9218
      @emmanuelcatan9218 Před 2 lety +2

      im from argentine, i work in a slaughter of chickens (under the table). we cant protest bc the fear of losing the job, if we are working here, underpaid in an unregistered work... there are no so much alternatives, everyone is easily replaced for the nature of the unskilled work

    • @FlatEarthKiller
      @FlatEarthKiller Před 2 lety

      @@emmanuelcatan9218 that’s sad, you should go to Hong Kong when you grind enough for more work

  • @briandamage7808
    @briandamage7808 Před 2 lety +3

    I would encourage anyone affected by issues like this to contact their local branch of the IWW

  • @drakedrones
    @drakedrones Před 2 lety +4

    Working in cold manufacturing plant - seafood and meat is NO joke. I have worked for 8 years, and have mad respect for the hardworking staff.

  • @siphiwe20
    @siphiwe20 Před 2 lety

    Really Vox, well done, this is some great content, great visuals and narration, all your stories are well told, great journalism....Thank you and keep at it.

  • @kenleyrowse4824
    @kenleyrowse4824 Před 2 lety +9

    This is really sad. I work at Baskin Robbins, scooping frozen ice cream day in and day out. and although it's not dangerous, or as bad as this, to many companies don't care enough to do anything about it, I wish things would change.

    • @borkbork4124
      @borkbork4124 Před 2 lety +2

      When I had to scoop ice cream my wrist was destroyed after every shift, please make sure you are doing some therapy on your wrist. Warming the scoop always helped but 4 years later, 1 year of physical therapy and surgery and I still have a lot of pain.

    • @kenleyrowse4824
      @kenleyrowse4824 Před 2 lety +1

      @@borkbork4124 they won't let us have a warm dipping wells, they say it's a health violation, so we us cold water. I'm thinking of quitting for many reasons. I've only been working there for a year but I may try therapy, thank you.

    • @australium7374
      @australium7374 Před 2 lety +1

      @@kenleyrowse4824 you need to find new opportunities, chronic pain from those things usually doesn’t go away

  • @EOstr.
    @EOstr. Před 2 lety +4

    A wonderful job, I didn't know about all those long term or permanent damages related to the repetitive motion, it's terrible.

  • @Lexyvil
    @Lexyvil Před 2 lety +5

    Poor chickens. :(
    Repetitive jobs should be shuffled often between those who do it and those who don't, at least to make it less a little less repetitive. I can't imagine having to do the same thing over and over all day, every day.

  • @AndrewNicholsSeattle
    @AndrewNicholsSeattle Před 2 lety +1

    I really enjoyed the video and appreciate the in depth investigation. I wanted to comment that at 10:31 the statistic represents total injuries of all current poultry workers and at 10:40 the statistic represents the new injuries sustained by workers in the specific year of 2013. One statistic measure the population suffering from injury, the other measures the rate at which workers are injured.

  • @DeepFleeceheart
    @DeepFleeceheart Před 2 lety +7

    I used to teach ESL in a Tyson plant in arkansas. It's pretty bad sometimes.

    • @ladymonacoofthebluepacific2571
      @ladymonacoofthebluepacific2571 Před 2 lety

      What's pretty bad 🤔

    • @BernardoPatino
      @BernardoPatino Před 2 lety +3

      @@ladymonacoofthebluepacific2571 the plant, Monica. The plant

    • @DeepFleeceheart
      @DeepFleeceheart Před 2 lety +2

      @@ladymonacoofthebluepacific2571 they had a giant traffic light at the entrance to show green if everything's normal, yellow if there was a major line malfunction that would slow production or a minor injury on the previous shift, and red if there was a major injury that required pretty much everything to shut down.

  • @kagrossett
    @kagrossett Před 2 lety +28

    Sounds like it might be safer to enter one of these factories as a chicken rather than a worker…

    • @mehere8038
      @mehere8038 Před 2 lety

      seems to be less suffering anyway doesn't there!

  • @myfinevoice5158
    @myfinevoice5158 Před 2 lety +25

    I love the sarcasm of putting the petitions in those poultry packages 🤌

  • @rafaeldugarte9635
    @rafaeldugarte9635 Před 2 lety +3

    Longtime Vox fan, supporter, subscriber here. Small, but I think important, note to the producer, Laura. I think it's important to make an effort to pronounce proper names correctly, in this case, your main point of contact with the workers' perils and stories, Magaly. The emphasis is on the second syllable.
    Love you're explainers. Best,

  • @brendahart5472
    @brendahart5472 Před 2 lety

    This video should be shared to every part of the world.

  • @viralnorn9173
    @viralnorn9173 Před 2 lety +1

    When I was in High School "The Jungle" along with Orwell's "1984", "Animal Farm" and Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" were required reading in English class. I doubt this has been the norm for a long time.

  • @nish663
    @nish663 Před 2 lety +3

    We can avoid all of this by actually regulating these industries, and eating less meat.... but we want our meat way too much, for too little. That depresses me.

  • @skimpuffy
    @skimpuffy Před 2 lety +3

    This is how the richest country on the planet treats its workers?

    • @walterbrunswick
      @walterbrunswick Před 2 lety

      Capitalism, it's great, ain't it?

    • @ShadNex
      @ShadNex Před 2 lety

      Nah its lobbyists and meat companies

    • @seanbrummfield448
      @seanbrummfield448 Před 2 lety

      @@walterbrunswick You complain about capitalism until liberals say, "Don't buy another thing, until we fix the problem, it won't take long." Then what do you have, huh?

  • @jonskislo1
    @jonskislo1 Před 2 lety +2

    The chicken industry's chicken safety problem.

  • @starcherry6814
    @starcherry6814 Před 2 lety +1

    Is it the same working conditions for the free range/grass-fed/organic chicken companies?

  • @ROR5CH4CH
    @ROR5CH4CH Před 2 lety +14

    Maybe eating less (industrial produced) meat would be a good Idea...

    • @lillaxxitiv1501
      @lillaxxitiv1501 Před 2 lety +5

      Not eating it at all would be best.

    • @carlosa.9533
      @carlosa.9533 Před 2 lety +1

      @@lillaxxitiv1501 True

    • @nitharshnirajagopal4575
      @nitharshnirajagopal4575 Před 2 lety +1

      Eating less meat means less suffering and no meat means no suffering. Which one do you prefer?

    • @namelesskat4814
      @namelesskat4814 Před 2 lety

      @@lillaxxitiv1501 No thanks I kinda like eating meat.

    • @lillaxxitiv1501
      @lillaxxitiv1501 Před 2 lety

      @@namelesskat4814 So temporary sensory pleasure is worth more than the very life of an animal, the environment, and the wellbeing of people?

  • @antoniomartins2900
    @antoniomartins2900 Před 2 lety +4

    Hi Vox, I wanted to ask, can you make this videos, with subtitles of more languages, please, I love your videos and want to show them to my friends, but they don't know English, and I know this is not only my problem, there's some people in here, that struggle with the same thing, I want to see subtitles in Portuguese, which is my language, and more languages please, automatic translation of the subtitles. Please, thank you.

  • @The40yearoldVegan
    @The40yearoldVegan Před 2 lety +1

    In Canada, when i started in 1999 line speeds where 60-80 birds per minute. When I left it was between 240-280 birds per minute, 3 birds per second. Humans (mostly marginalized) are machines, eyestrain, hearing problems due to noise, contracting pathogens like campylobacter, salmonella, ecoli and psychological trauma are rampant in this industry.

  • @chelidoniii
    @chelidoniii Před 2 lety +1

    How about using machine learning and image processing machines to replace the repetitive precise cutting labor?

  • @gamingpanda8665
    @gamingpanda8665 Před 2 lety +4

    I just read the teaser post you posted

  • @PianoMan6302
    @PianoMan6302 Před 2 lety +14

    What about their chicken safety problem?

    • @PHlophe
      @PHlophe Před 2 lety +1

      whole nother story..

    • @mehere8038
      @mehere8038 Před 2 lety +1

      nowadays they mostly use a sort of vacuum cleaner for harvesting the chickens, so no more human catchers, so no more bites & no more chicken related safety problems :D

    • @PianoMan6302
      @PianoMan6302 Před 2 lety

      @@mehere8038 I wasn't talking about the safety of the humans involved...

    • @mehere8038
      @mehere8038 Před 2 lety

      @@PianoMan6302 well you should be! It's talked about WAY too little isn't it!

    • @PianoMan6302
      @PianoMan6302 Před 2 lety +1

      @@mehere8038 Vox just made a whole video about it. Not once did they mention the suffering of the chickens.

  • @kbrown3760
    @kbrown3760 Před 2 lety +1

    My mom is permanently disabled because of her employment at a poultry plant. I remember her sleeping with braces on her hands and wrists at night. Poultry plants don't care.

  • @thebookkeeper8551
    @thebookkeeper8551 Před rokem

    There is a huge disconnect between management and the workers. Management only see numbers, while workers see what needs to be changed. Unionizing while important can often lead to immediate dismissal. That is why it is important that workers show solidarity.

  • @trunkmonkey1064
    @trunkmonkey1064 Před 2 lety +4

    90% of people in these comments won't hesitate to buy their tyson dino nuggets. If you want change then change your purchasing habits

    • @tardigrade0708
      @tardigrade0708 Před 2 lety +1

      Get off your high horse 90%. If you walk into a grocery store you're just like the rest of us. Everything is processed and is part of a supply chain.

    • @koopag8
      @koopag8 Před 2 lety

      @@tardigrade0708 so we shouldn't do anything? Great idea there, lazy 👍

    • @noname-zp1yh
      @noname-zp1yh Před 2 lety

      Purchasing "ethically" isn't sustainable because the meat industry has people specificly dedicated to figuring out how "advertise" to you and tons of lobbying money to decide what they can and can't say while you have your limited amount of time, money, and knowledge. You wouldn't win under normal circumstances and you're definitely not going to win when the chicken they sell is probably the ONLY chicken in the store.
      Stop blaming individuals for systemic problems. All you're actually doing is virtue signaling and telling people to waste their money on solutions that don't work.Ethically purchasing only works when there's a viable alternative and when you can make the bad option illegal or otherwise impossible.
      It's a short term measure so you can get the political power to put in place better solutions. It doesn't work long term and no amount of moralizing changes that.

    • @noname-zp1yh
      @noname-zp1yh Před 2 lety

      @@koopag8 you should do solutions that actually work.
      Want workers to stop being exploited then stop giving the factory owners to power to do so.

  • @Phatxual
    @Phatxual Před 2 lety +4

    My buddy simply catches the chickens and STILL becomes sick, and many avenues are aware, they just refuse to take action

  • @phillipatencio2527
    @phillipatencio2527 Před 2 lety +1

    The worker isn't the problem, the profit motive is.

  • @isetthem
    @isetthem Před 2 lety +1

    Gave 2 and a half years of my life to foster farms on the chicken breast line. My hands cramp up every so often. Messed up my back. And the union didn't help a ton. I saw people get hurt all the time.

  • @miguelarredondo3481
    @miguelarredondo3481 Před 2 lety +3

    Glad to live in a "3rd world country" where worker health is above profit.

  • @Jkp1321
    @Jkp1321 Před 2 lety +24

    Factory work should be a job that pays really high with high turn over. Something to get someone on their feet in 6-12 months

  • @sammitorn5326
    @sammitorn5326 Před 2 lety +1

    This is heart breaking. 9:40 says it all.

  • @melibellu1271
    @melibellu1271 Před 2 lety

    Mu mom worked at case farms for about 1-2 years? Half a year after giving birth to my lil sister too. I was too young then to really care about her day but even she seemed down, tiredd, and never did much after coming home. She eventually quit because she got sick from the chemicals.

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    @jamsea794 Před 2 lety +30

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  • @seanlightning9634
    @seanlightning9634 Před 2 lety +3

    Great video!

  • @european6380
    @european6380 Před 2 lety

    The picture where they show her frame 16 times is an autostereogram actually, like in 'Magic Eye'

  • @michaelscottoriginal
    @michaelscottoriginal Před 2 lety +1

    This is so disheartening, especially when you consider the holiday demand crunch. This is the price we pay for convenience. I would not mind a few cents' price increase, so long as they go to the benefits of the workers. But we all know the companies will not do the right thing

  • @yihtorng
    @yihtorng Před 2 lety +4

    deboning now can be partially automated as well

  • @TheAnthonykirksey
    @TheAnthonykirksey Před 2 lety +4

    A worker in NW Arkansas whose husband worked for the same company who died from Covid. You probably limited it only a handful of people just with those data points. So likely they already know who she is now.

  • @tersrawr
    @tersrawr Před 2 lety +2

    My grandma was laid off from Tyson because it made her arthritis flare up bad in her hands

  • @MrAngrybaldguy
    @MrAngrybaldguy Před 2 lety +4

    Yet another reason to leave meat off our plate

  • @taskfroce80th95
    @taskfroce80th95 Před 2 lety +10

    After this video I think I will be switch to plant based meat

    • @christianl151
      @christianl151 Před 2 lety +1

      The plant based chicken tenders from Gardein are great

    • @slushie.2332
      @slushie.2332 Před 2 lety

      Plant based meats aren’t really good for you too. Just eat smaller portions or completely stop eating meat.

    • @koopag8
      @koopag8 Před 2 lety

      @@slushie.2332 He didn't say it was good for him...

    • @talianicole
      @talianicole Před 2 lety

      ehhh as someone who hasn’t eaten meat in years, plant based meats are that good imo. it’s better to just eat fruits, vegetables, etc

    • @Mystro256
      @Mystro256 Před 2 lety +1

      @@slushie.2332 At the very least, most plant based meats are better for you than red or processed meat, but that's not saying much. Eating more legumes are your best bet to improve your health.

  • @BienvenidoAlHoloceno
    @BienvenidoAlHoloceno Před 2 lety

    Fascinating insight into a problem I knew nothing about.

  • @nyramurphy1845
    @nyramurphy1845 Před 2 lety

    That's wild. My parents met in a meat processing plant

  • @petrholub3642
    @petrholub3642 Před 2 lety +3

    How safe is it for the chicken?

  • @giovanni2521
    @giovanni2521 Před 2 lety +12

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      @kimberlycarol5737 Před 2 lety

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      @wallywallendo Před 2 lety +1

      @Eva Megan Andrew? He killed my dog

  • @FitraRahim
    @FitraRahim Před 2 lety +1

    I remember when the media talked about the construction of the Dubai, UAE building which was built by Indian immigrant workers in appalling conditions. After that, everyone immediately thought that the UAE was a country built on slavery. Every building video in Dubai is always associated with slavery.
    I wonder how their double standards were when they learned that America was a country built on slavery, even today. Not only this one video, you can see similar things in other videos especially about agriculture (most of them employ workers from poor countries in the south). But none of them did the same as they did with the UAE. How naive and hypocritical.

  • @IScottTheScotch
    @IScottTheScotch Před 2 lety +1

    I didn’t know and am shocked to realise that chickens aren’t cut by machines.

    • @borkbork4124
      @borkbork4124 Před 2 lety

      There is some technology to do that, and I do not know to the extent it is being used, but in either case, the spresd of food borne illnesses is very high. Any equipment that is automatically fabricating the chickens can spread salmonella for example from one chicken, to all of the following chickens. I personally do not know why it is not being automated more, since fabrication by hand also has a high food borne illness risk. Probably something to do with money, idk

  • @mwelch94
    @mwelch94 Před 2 lety +23

    "she chose to remain anonymous, but she's a woman who works in Arkansas, has been there the last 20 years, met her husband at work, and he recently died of covid, here is what her hair looks like"
    Real anonymous guys 😂

    • @Quivex1
      @Quivex1 Před 2 lety +3

      Honestly? That might not narrow it down as much as you think it does haha....A lot of people in these types of jobs will work in the same job, in the same place, for many many years, meet partners at work, and there were A LOT of COVID deaths in the 2020 outbreaks in the meatpacking industry. Either way, it's certainly not the MOST anonymous I'll give you that, but it's really about maintaining plausible deniability. You would never be able to legally prove who that person based on those facts alone.