The study was flawed. They took people that ate a high fat high carb diet with lots of processed food and didn't blame the trans fat processed meat but just put the blame on saturated fat.
@@aintfromrounhere8099 we found the vegan lol Bruh there's been more studies agaisnt the saturated fat bad and not much for it. We went over this in my research class with one of the most famous researchers in the US and maybe the world. The vegans would not accept that eliminating fat might not benefit them. They're so invested in their reasoning but they couldn't be so sure if a simple fact breaks their whole personality.
@@ObamanableSnowman There are a lot more observational studies against saturated fat and not many non-observational studies for it. There are plenty of times where we observe people starting a diet high on saturated fat, for example, people from other countries moving here, increasing their saturated fat intake, and then having a higher risk of heart disease. But we don't take into account what else they might be eating. If you have heart problems, the doctor is going to tell you to lay off the saturated fat. But you are also going to stop eating like crap, in general. Stop drinking soda, eating sugary snacks, etc. There are plenty of countries, like France, who have diets that are high in fat, but they don't eat the amount of processed carbs that we do. And they don't have heart problems. That's the crux of everything. Whether you are vegan or not, the sheer amount of processed carbs Americans eat is what is causing their heart problems. Not Saturated fat. We've been eating saturated fat for millenia.
@@Denny-Thray I have read tons and tons of expert doctors and researchers opin that saturated fat intake is associated with higher LDL and higher risk of these diseases. And almost all opposing opinion have been from aternative sources. Even people like What I've learned and Dr. Eric berg are both alternative sources. I personally use a oil rich in saturated fat, and in the past I used to think like you because of this specific interview and tons of others, my cholesterol has been in tipping point of unhealthy for quite a while now, probably because of this. I only use coconut oil because it doesn't produce trans fat like literally all other replacements I could find. I use it sparsely though. It's better to be safe than sorry and this is why I'd probably never take advise from camps that deny these evidence altogether.
Get blood work, change and track diet for a couple of months, get blood work again. After that, who cares what general population trends occur with regards to diet, you'll know what works for you.
I have high cholesterol and eat lots of saturated fat yet I have had multiple coronary artery calcium scans over the last few years that have scored zero which means I have zero buildup/blockage in my coronary arteries, so no heart disease. As the first guy pointed out we didn't see lot of heart attacks in the early 20th century but we did start seeing them increase exponentially in the later 20th century. Why? It wasn't because more people were eating more saturated fat. It was the opposite. More people were eating less saturated fat and more processed sugar laden foods. It's not the cholesterol and saturated fat that causes heart disease it's the sugar and junk carbs.
Saturated fat and calorie consumption in general was lower before WW2. During the post war boom, meat and dairy consumption increased greatly. Ancel Keys' tipoff to the causal role fat played was that heart disease decreased during rationing, when meat and dairy were very restricted. Not everyone is as susceptible to increased LDL from dietary sources. There are plenty of anecdotes of long lived people who ate a decent amount of saturated fat. That doesn't change the clear trends preset when we analyze diets for entire populations. And of course, there are RCTs at this point that controlled for diet directly. You are right that refined carbs are a risk factor for heart disease. However, they're just as bad as saturated fat. No health guidelines recommend replacing sat fat for refined carbs. A lot of people might do that, but that's not a failure of the lipid hypothesis. It's that most people are terrible at feeding themselves.
@@Strawbclock0 Look up sugar association and the tabacco industry. The whole low fat fad of dietary guidlines was created, reaserched and published by people who had stakes in sugar! Saturated fat is essential, sugar isnt. Sugar association is just another cartel. Following dietary guidlines which they still influence is like going to Marlboro for health advice.
No thanks, I eat well 90% of the time so I can and will enjoy that diabolically good stuff at the weekend, and I feel sorry for anyone that deprives themselves of whatever makes them happy. Also, it's just not feasible for most people now as so many people are hooked on sugar etc. Cut out sugar and processed crap most of the time alright but don't forget the happy face! :D
@@I2ezident why don't you shoot up heroin? It'll make you happy... you know, when you're 50 and have already had 2 bypasses, you'll be thinking to yourself that you shouldn't have been eating the foods that make you "happy "
ChuckleKnuckles better than Aubrey “paint your balls in marracaan cow-shit to harvest the unity with the spirits of Onnit’s matcha green tea” Marcabilly
Well when in comes to diet and cholesterol to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also for looking in to this matter from a different perspective and without being condemning from one's views and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering everyone's valid opinion, i honestly believe i forgot what i was going to say
@@austinf9239 As I bite into my Wendys jr bacon cheeseburger I realize how much of an idiot you are. I'm not vegan but I am honest enough to realize the evidence is on their side. Anything that tastes like shit is good for you and the food that does taste good like meat is obviously not as healthy.
@@Noah-wv4td oh, high dietary cholesterol has been PROVEN "cause" heart disease? I thought the entire purpose of this particular debate was that it WASN'T PROVEN.
@@Noah-wv4td Except cholesterol is NOT BAD. It rises to help combat inflammation. It's what hormones are made out of, including Vitamin D when your skin hits the sunlight. So if vegans have the lowest cholesterol, assuming cholesterol was bad, then that would be a good thing.. Except cholesterol isn't bad.. Refined sugars and carbs raise insulin and cause inflammation, so the body increases its production of cholesterol as a bandage. So in this case, higher cholesterol is TELLING US there is inflammation, but at the same time, it's helping us combat it. But what do the doctors do? Give you statins to prevent you from producing the cholesterol.. So yes your blood cholesterol is lowered, but you just got rid of your bandage against inflammation, and the damage the insulin is doing plus the inflammation is still there! Now vegans have low cholesterol NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOW INFLAMMATION, they don't eat any animal products so the body has a tough time producing enough cholesterol. They have less protection against inflammation, less raw material to make hormones, low vitamin D, and the consequences are many (low sex hormones, adrenal fatigue, hypothyroid etc)
@JCmasters100 Probably because dr. Grease was debating badly, bringing up unrelated shit and studies from 70 years ago. Like science hasn't improved since then.
More like one guy talking endlessly and being extremely biased and acts like a slimy politician vs a guy who is an obvious critical thinker and exudes logic.
@Mr. Mopar yeah blood sugar spikes are responsible for the bulk of people's weight gain. I recommend a high protein, high fiber diet and weight training to anyone that will listen. What is going to accelerate your weight loss, and keep the weight off, is going to be adding lean muscle to your body. Muscle is hungry stuff.
@CriticalZero PCOS and thyroid issues can cause weight gain. Carbs can cause weight gain in people with these issue. Healthy carbs cause weight gain in some people.
@@pentachronic Calm down, Mongolian population is consuming lot of meat and animal fats, whereas India has highest ratio of vegetarians, both countries have similar life expectancy, with Mongolia being slightly ahead. Diet alone is not to blame for everything, lifestyle has far bigger impact. Whole anti-meat/animal product hysteria is driven by vegan ideologists, not actual science.
I have genetic high cholesterol, born with it and in my family. My grandfather had his first heart transplant when he was only 45. When I was 18 I had arteries that were “clogged” in the 99 percentile to the point that they were those of a 40 year. After taking medication and reducing cholesterol and saturated fat in my diet (I am vegetarian now, say what you want about that) my arteries have cleaning out to the 50 percentile and that of a mid 20 year old. This was only 4 years.
Key thing here is the fact that this seemed to boom after WWII. That’s when processed convenience foods became widely distributed. And fast food chains followed. The fact that this wasn’t our great great great grandparents case who ate meat dairy, eggs, vegetation, lived off the land, tells you most likely it’s the processed crap that is the problem. Eat more whole food, plants and meats.
I live in a country where almost all of our food is fresh eaten still we have high MI(becouse we love meat so much), our grandparents life expectancy was much lower than ours they didn't live to become older and to be exposed to heart attacks and even if they were they I don't think they were recorded as a MI
As they say ‘confusion is our product’. Please trust yourself! Check our blood work. Switch to any diet you want to experiment. Follow it precisely for 6 weeks. Do another blood work. See the results. Switch again tho the next diet for 6 weeks. Do the blood work and see what is said. Evaluate how you feel after both diets- tired, no energy, constipation, etc… whichever feels better- keep going with that one! Do the study on yourself first!
The only diet that's used as an intervention for heart disease, successfully I might add, is a WFPB diet with little fat. I am not suggesting it's the healthiest diet since it's an intervention for extreme cases, but there are no clinics using low carb diets as interventions for heart disease. Not a single one.
They dont, cause if they do, it is clear that if you have healthy baseline levels , or if you have low dietary levels, your cholesterol shoots up ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1534437 , meta analysis and review)
@@nunoschumacher6028 I noticed that too. I have also read into the study more and found it interesting that the people they used in the analysis already had high levels of cholesterol before the study. If you give an egg to someone who already has high cholesterol, of course their numbers won't go up significantly - put a twig on a bonfire and see if it makes a difference. But if you give an egg to someone who is living a whole foods plant based diet void of any amount of animal proteins, then their cholesterol shoots up.
@@TheBeardedSandman Look up the elderly gentlemen who eat 35-30 eggs a day long term - no cardiovascular issues... perhaps it isn't as simple as "cholesterol bad mkay" the brain, mothers milk, our lipid cells etc - all cholesterol
@@theboraxbandit9563 I really think I made that comment more than 2 months ago... my opinion on the matter has been shifting quite a lot. First, I really don't think the cholesterol we eat correlates to high cholesterol in the blood. It's only a small percentage of dietary cholesterol that actually gets metabolized into the body anyway, so the cholesterol in eggs doesn't really do much. The second argument is about saturated fat and it's effect on cholesterol. While I do believe eggs increase cholesterol in the blood due to saturated fat metabolism in the liver, most of that cholesterol is actually HDL, not LDL. If anything, eggs are good for your heart depending on how you cook them. Lastly, there was a study on monkeys a while back - they fed monkeys pure cholesterol and within weeks they were all having heart attacks, but then they looked at the quality of the cholesterol and found that most of it had oxidized. When they fed the monkeys non-oxidized cholesterol, all the heart attacks stopped. Looks like the quality of the food you eat and how you prepare said food matters just as much as what the food actually is. There's so much more that goes into this. But no, I don't think eggs are America's heart disease problem. Refined grains, processed foods, sedentary lifestyle; these are the true causes.
I just did a large exhaustive study....I ate all the meat and fat in my lab/kitchen...several lbs.....burp....I'm sure I will die shortly....because a vegan told me...the vegan agenda started by the religious cult who thought animal foods cause masterbation....The Seventh Day Adventist Church.
@Christopher Har V mate, you gotta question causation. Atherosclerosis causes thrombolitic plaquing in forms of cholesterol trying to repair the damage, doesn't mean that cholesterol is the criminal in heart disease.. i mean look at the eskimos and hunter-gatherers. The thing is that Ancel started with 28 countries but crossed out 19 of them to come to his conclusions because they were not in line with his hypothesis... I view it kind of like seratonin for depression. The reason suicide is listed as a side-effect of antidepressants is because different levels of seratonin show up in different mental diseases and someone not having a reuptake issue could easily be depressed. Yet so far we didnt find a better explanation so we went like ok this seems the most legitimate mechanism of action. I mean eggs contributing to atherosclerosis was "proven" by feeding rabbits (a herbivore) eggs. Cereal companies enjoy and fund such researches, and high carb foods like pasta are cheap to produce, durable and a good business model
And rightly so, that doctor is full of shit; David Diamond- Demonization and Deception in Cholesterol Research czcams.com/video/yX1vBA9bLNk/video.html in my opinion...
@@jonb2437 One takes truths as one perceives them, from wherever and whomever they arise. Cardiovascular experts recommend low fat and six servings of grains per day- should I take cognisance of such expert advice, simply because they're experts? Experts are a multi choice affair...
I'm a fitness trainer of 25 years. One word: Adkins. High saturated fat diet, high cholesterol diet, low REFINED CARBOHYDRATES, low REFINED SUGARS = lower bad cholesterol, higher good cholesterol. Saturated fats and high cholesterol are only bad when you mix with refined carbs and sugars. No more than 20 grams of saturated fat per day (Even good Sat Fats), eat unrefined carbs and sugars for your energy level of the day, push your heart with cardiovascular aerobic exercise 5-6 days per week. Push your muscles with weight resistance of some kind 3-5 days per week. Period.
What the guy in black doesn't acknowledge is that excessive carbohydrates oxidize LDL and help create Lipoprotein(a), preventing the recycling of LDL by the liver. Lipoprotein(a) is readily absorbed into the blood vessel lining, where macrophages soak up the molecules, creating the white foam that puts pressure on the cell wall and leads to calcification of the arteries.
Glucose only oxidizes LDL significantly if you have diabetes or prediabetes. If you are eating a low fat diet and losing weight, your insulin sensitivity improves. Sugar doesn't cause diabetes.
@@Magnulus76 word? Excess Sugar causes you to get fat. Once you get fat you start getting in insulin resistant. Keep on sugaring and the diabetes party begins.
The doctor said that heart attacks became an issue in the 1940s or at skyrocketed but were people eating earlier than 1940 were dating less meat eggs cheese and butter?
Up until the industrial revolution and before we could ship fruits around the globe, the majority of the world was in ketosis for 9-10 months of the year. Cholesterol is not a factor unless there is a pre-existing nutrient deficiency, typically Vitamin C. This deficiency in our American society is typically caused by excessive blood insulin, which in turn is related to excessive carbohydrate ingestion. Dietary cholesterol (that which comes from the foods you eat) only accounts for 20-25% of the cholesterol your liver makes each and every day. These knuckle heads are arguing over something which is not significant. Well...one is arguing. The body needs lots of cholesterol. Your nerve myelin sheaths, brain cells, sex organs, hormones, thyroid T4-T3 conversion and a bunch of other processes require cholesterol production. Seeing cholesterol build up in blood vessels is a sign that something else is going wrong in the vascular and arterial walls (lesions). have you noticed that cholesterol is only a topic at issue with regard to heart and vascular health? Why is that? Do you think the human body uses cholesterol and saturated fats well for all other systems and then somehow f***s up with regard to this singular system?? Think about it, the rise in heart attacks coincides with the rise in dietary sugars. We didn’t have the availability of year round processed grains and processed sugars and fruits until the last 120 years or thereabouts. Lipoproteins carry BOTH cholesterol and triglycerides. The folks with heart disease also almost always have chronically elevated insulin levels. We are only looking at fats as causative because Ancel Keyes was a dumbass lying manipulative bastard looking to falsely promote his own backward ideas. There is only one blue zone which doesn’t consume animal products. The rest eat fatty fish and oils and animals. What they don’t eat is sugar and crappy processed oils. It’s the processed foods and all the sugars and stripped grains which cause the problems. Our grains are absolute shit. We strip the grain and eliminate all of the B vitamins. The liver can’t cope with processing carbs in the absence of B vitamins. This is why Asia now has to contend with increased levels of Beriberi (B1 deficiency induced disease) Want to heal your heart? Eat fats. Up your vitamin C intake without stimulating an insulin response. Insulin blocks uptake of Vitamin C. Vascular walls require elasticity and collagen like cells. These come from Vitamin C and certain amino acids as building blocks. The cholesterol will only cause a problem if there is a lesion to repair. If the arterial and vascular walls are healthy then the intelligent body systems won’t need to deposit cholesterol to patch the lesions. This is not rocket surgery. It’s time to get rid of the cholesterol-is-dangerous model. We have had the low fat/high carb idiots running our SAD guidelines since the 1970’s and during that same time we have seen DRASTIC rises in heart disease, cancer, diabetes. These chronic diseases all share the same root cause - Lactic acidosis due to excessive carbohydrate metabolism. This mechanism merely manifests differently in different persons. Root cause is identical. 1. Keto 2. Fasting 3. Micronutrient increase 4. Burst exercise training 5. Gut repair That’s how you repair blood vessel damage That’s how you reverse diabetes That’s how you begin to address cancer
How do you increase vitamin C without an insulin response? Certain vegetables? I know fruits have lots of vitamin C but they all have sugar...but it’s natural sugar. Thanks for the summary!!!
What they aren't including in this discussion that I personally believe weighs very heavy on the amount of heart attacks and cholesterol, etc, etc, etc. is SMOKING AND STRESS. The speaker just glossed over the smoking contribution. Heavy saturated fat eaters coupled with smoking and stress. Men were dropping dead from smoking and stress. Okay so he admits smoking might effect it.
I heard a good explanation which is, blaming cholesterol for heart disease is like blaming fireman for fires. Just because they are present at the event doesn't mean they are the cause.
Close but not it. I'm not exactly sure that saturated fat helps against heart disease like a fireman does for a fire. It's more like just because then EMTs are present at fires doesn't mean they cause them.
The rate of heart attacks begins to rise in 1948. What changed about the american diet? Did people all of the sudden start eating meat and butter? Im pretty sure that had been going on forever. So what did change? Pretty sure people started eating a lot more sugar
I was gaining weight and feeling really bad no matter what I was doing...exercising, lower calories. When you realize your body has no idea what a calorie is and that is a finely tuned machine that is controlled by hormones, losing weight and getting healthy is pretty easy....food isnt entertainment...it is nutrition.
"...you realize your body has no idea what a calorie is". No shit, a calorie is a unit of measurement defined by humans to represent energy. Your body knows what energy is. Eat less energy in the form of hundreds of calories a day and you lose weight, eat more energy and you gain weight.
Too much of anything is bad but sugar and fats are the worst. Saying that try eating too many whole vegetables. Won't happen. You physically won't want to.
Its essential to have your OWN cholesterol. Eating it from animals heightens your chances to numerous diseases and ailments including heart disease and attacks.
Cholesterol, which is only available from other animals like ourselves, is together with saturated fat (richest sources: dairy and fatty meat) are the ONLY dietary causes of plaque formation in your blood vessels which long-term causes high blood pressure, heart disease and cognitive diseases. So don’t be giving advice like that without having any reviewed studies to back it up cause that can have dangerous consequences for people.
Just further proof that Joe Rogan’s podcast is the greatest podcast ever created...and it’s not even close. What other podcasts give you this amount of insightfulness, variety, and civil, profound debate? Real talk 💯
The problem with the beta carotene study was that it compared food to synthetic pharma supplements. The two are not identical. Synthetic beta carotene can be pro oxidative, whereas getting beta carotene from whole foods is not. What's the take away? Eat your fruit and veggies, skip the pills.
It was a great discussion but let's all be honest. Joel Kahn is a real medical doctor with studies. Kresser is not a medical doctor. He studies pseudoscience chinese medicine. He tried to call out Kahn referencing epidemiology studies but then Kahn called him out using epidemiology studies to support his claims lol. Plus any studies Kresser referenced on cholesterol didnt measure at base line.
Definitely agree, he had a psychologist on earlier that said debates on serious topics need to be 6 hours or so, and i think this definitely paints a bigger picture instead of lobbing grenades of abuse and nitpicking articles on both sides.
@@TheKyleAye you either have selective hearing or didnt understand what Chris was saying. He never said epidemiology was to be completely thrown out. He said that it was easy to make mistakes with it when not properly controlled. He then cites properly controlled epidemiology along with a large number of random control trials... Meanwhile Kahn is making large conclusions based on correlation.
No, Chris was using flawed studies that amount to junk science. He refereed to a study that did not account for baseline cholesterol. The affect is not linear. The less you have, the greater the impact. If you already have a lot, there may be no impact. You can't take a bunch of unhealthy people who have high cholesterol, give them more knowing it will have no change, and then claim there is no connection. That is the stuff of con artists.
Drink water, get a purifier, eat grass fed meats and wild fish, avoid fast food/junk food, and exercise. You will likely be fine for the majority of your life
Bro please please please read the meta analysis. Consumed saturated fats directly correlates to serum cholesterol levels. Of course the body needs saturated fats but it is grossly over consumed in most American’s diets
You are reading the meta wrong... people who eat a lot of saturated fat in the US also eat a lot of sugar... Sugar is and was always the problem, not fat.
Ju Berry Red Herring. I’m not defending sugar. It’s clear that saturated fats lead to higher cholesterol levels. The problem is that crooked doctors fight against the notion that saturated fat does correlate to cholesterol by taking a sample of people who already consume ridiculous amounts of saturated fat so if you increase it, they show little to no change. BUT if you control for base levels of cholesterol it does indicate a correlation between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol. We’re referencing different research
zbLoodlust087 i eat nothing but greens and meat. I train a lot. I never drink any sugar and my only carbs come from potatoes... i eat 6-7 eggs a day. That for 5 years, since i started training. My bloodwork are a1. Exercice + No sugar = you live That's that simple.
I went vegan after two successive yearly blood tests showing upward trending cholesterol and blood sugar. After one year vegan on a whole foods plant based diet, all markers dropped back into healthy range. Lost 12 kilos and my cardio fitness and general energy levels have increased dramatically. Before this change of diet I was consuming a predominantly Mediterranean diet and thought vegans were loopy. Having made the change the only regret I have now is not doing it earlier.
I would agree that short term vegan diets are cleansing... but don't fool yourself thinking you can stay vegan long term. You will starve. Plants are cleansing and medicine, and meat is building and nourishing.
@@theboraxbandit9563 yes, I am 44 years old and have been Vegan since 1995. I am doing iron man and outperforming 20 year olds. Just waiting for that malnourisment to kick in 😂
The development of processed 🛢 oils. Early Cotton oils, Sunflower, vegetable and seed oil's. Cholesterol is an anti-inflammatory agent and is also essential in the production of vitamin D.
It's crazy how we don't know what's good or not nowadays. A couple of years ago fat was bad, vegetables were good, and meat affected your body negatively. I'm just gonna eat and consume things that don't personally make me feel bad.
Follow the money. Just look at all the Paleo related junk Kresser is trying to sell on his website, and check his medical credentials, what does this tell you!?
Do yourself a favor and look up the papers Kresser's cites, not his blog. A good example of the egg study. That study contradicts his view on saturated fat and cholesterol, but he cites the sentence on egg intake and cholesterol. Not only that, the folks in that study already had high cholesterol. He is cherry picking studies and in some cases, cherry picking sentences in the studies, and there are many contradictions when you look at his sources.
@@user-oj2is7eu5h If the advice that hasn't changed was correct, why has obesity and diabetes not get any better? Why has it actually gotten worse? Because they were wrong.... OBVIOUSLY. If it worked,it would have worked. Simple.
I really wished that he mentioned that the so called blue zones with a high life expectancy conveniently left out regions where people eat a lot of animal products but still don't have problems with heart disease.
@@byggerEttSlott The Masai tribes in central Africa are a frequently referenced example. Another lesser-known example is the Arab country of Oman, especially populations who live in rural areas outside of the big cities. They're known for for their longevity and generally Better Health markers than people who live in the urban areas, yet they still include a lot of animal protein in their diet. Granted it is all wild stuff they raise or hunt themselves.
@@brodietaym8475 The problem isnt really the meat honestly....loads of tribes in the jungles eat meats and i dont think they worry about heart disease,the problem is that in "developed countries" the animals are fed nonsense and overly controlled in how they grow...
How about they try using the word OVERCONSUMPTION? This word is downplayed to the point where "authorities" within a subject use it as a invisible catalyst to carry an idea. However it's importance could be the central thesis of the arguement. There are other countries that have access and consume the same types of high fatty or processed foods that we have. But why are their obesity levels, heart disease levels, and heart attack risks so low in comparison to ours? Because America consumes up to 5x the amount of something that the rest of the world does, Britain is EVEN MORE! They brought up Japan alot, arguably the healthiest country in the world, but failed to mention their portion sizes and consumption rates compared to ours. We over consume almost everything that doesnt have a warning label and even then still fuck it up with the massive pharmaceutical OD death statistics rising and alot of them are accidental. So you put NO WARNING on overconsumption for alcohol, fast food, or processed food, and then consume 5x the amount required for energy and nutrition, then act surprised when your cells call it quits after being redlined everyday for 15 years? Try putting a 63 Octane rated fuel in your car and then drive everyday carrying maximum load, and scratch your head when the engine says FUCK YOU and seizes.
Well said, Black. Everybody's bumping heads because of minutia like fats, cholesterol and sugar, when in fact the issue is plain abuse. Let's face it, Amercans love to pig the fuck out. It's the abuse that's the issue, not the occasional Coke, fries, burgers, whatever.
I would be really curious to see a study comparing low carb diets to moderate/high carb diets BUT with one group consuming mostly processed and simple carbs (packaged and boxed snacks, high sugar cereals etc) and the other group consuming complex and natural carbs. Or at least have more studies when comparing low carb diets to diets who are eating carbs but only complex ones (i.e. sweet potatoes, quinoa, sprouted no sugar added breads etc.) because I wonder if when they are using individuals who eat carbs that are filthy carbohydrates and loaded with weird oils, sugars and stuff like de-caking agents and other weird chemicals that we shouldn't be eating to make the product look, feel, or smell a certain way that naturally wouldn't be so. I think there would be a huge difference in results.
i like how he saids look at japan less cholesterol than americans look at france they eat all the stuff our guidelines say not to eat and they have very low risk at having heart attacks and have low cholesterol compared to us. what people over look is the lifestyles japan and france both have very active cultures it’s not uncommon for someone in france to walk on an advantage 5 miles a day. i know some people here that sit in a office and do next to no walking maybe walk 5 miles a week. it’s not just what you eat it’s also how you live. japan also eats differently most don’t keep enough food in their homes to last 3 days. they eat less and eat out while on the move and don’t eat late. how many people in america work late and eat when they get home. there’s a million factors. constant hard stress on a person who eats right and works out can cause a rise in cholesterol. our system is so fed up it’s crazy for years they told us crap like margarine and diet sodas was great for us. Now they say their horrible for you.
That's because he, like ancel keys, is strategically choosing his examples out of a plethora of data to support his hypothesis. To him making a point is more important than reviewing the full body of data.
No, when looking at the actual data, the French have those things in very little amounts compared to the amount of vegetables and fruits that they eat.
Hi, I'm Chris Kresser and I have a degree in chinese medicine. I've never published any research and have no PHD, but let me tell you why all major medical groups are wrong along with the scientific consensus
Den Harry retarded scientists bc the rest of the scientific and medical community moved on from this long ago and we’ve already declared these guidelines bc of the evidence .. here dude 395 tightly controlled metabolic wards proving saturated fat and cholesterol significantly raises serum and LDL cholesterol with 4/5s of the raise in LDL cholesterol... there is no better science than tightly controlled dietary interventions www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9006469/
Keto is good short term for quick weight loss, as all fad diets are, or for a kick start for moving into a more healthier diet. But if you do this long term, yes it's very bad for you! And unsustainable. Just eat a healthy balanced diet where the majority of your food comes from nutricious whole plant foods and be active. Good luck :)
If you have so many opinions about this- maybe it is not the most important thing for stress. Connection is much more important. I wish people debated the best way of giving empathy.
This is very important and easy to miss!!! Kresser brings up two meta-analyses at 7:05, which Kahn fails to strongly rebut UNTIL 19:55. It's obvious that Kahn had responses but didn't immediately realize which studies Kresser was referring to (since he doesn't reference authors). Also, Kresser never responds to Kahn's points, indicating that he may have missed the fact that he was addressing the two meta-analyses he brought up as evidence! If you don't connect those dots, you'd be left thinking Kresser's 1-2 punch was KO, but those studies were widely criticized as Kahn touches on.
My father would eat a big greasy bacon sandwich every morning then go to Mcdonald’s everyday get a fish fillet large fries and a Big Mac and for dinner a large pizza pie extra cheese and giant calzone and he lived to the ripe old age of 42 i thought that was pretty good
Scott DuPont no smoking drugs or alcohol sugar wasn’t his thing notice nothing sweet on his menu just lots of saturated fat he was a cyclist and swimmer doctors said poor diet was the cause
Scott DuPont Carbohydrates consist of starches, sugar and fibre. Wheat contains basically 0 sugar and a lot of fiber. So your statement that flour is 70% sugar is wrong.
There's tons of carbs and Trans fats in your aforementioned diet. Which today are considered the root causes of inflammation and auto immune disease, according to the leading science of today.
@@triger1 well, technically all carbs(simple as well as complex) are chains of sugar molecules but no food or macro group is bad for you unless u exceed your caloric goals..but the thing is, saturated fat foods actually keep u satiated for a much longer time than carb rich foods expect potato which is also not actually bad within caloric limits..
So basically he ate cheap, highly processed foods without a lot of nutrition, his meat and cheese likely came from grain fed cows, and he got lots of trans fats and carbs - and yet you blame it on the saturated fats. This is one of the problems, to look at ONE FACTOR RETROSPECTIVELY and imply that that must have been the problem and cause. Sorry, this is not reliable or helpful information and actually doesn't say anything about how much saturated fats or any other factor contributed to his premature death.
Not sure what Chris is talking about Olive oil has mostly Monounsaturated fat in it. Also different types of saturated fats (there's mainly 3 different types we attain from diet, Lauric, Palmitic and Stearic acid) have different effects on health.
Because Kahn slaughtered the other guy 🚶♂️, I still remember Kahn talked about one of the carnivore champion - Charles poliquin died like a rat at 57 to a heart attack
all i got from this whole thing was one guy saying "hey go read this article (states article) that pushes my narrative and then the other guy going "thats not correct! go read this article (states article ) that pushes my narrative"
Dr Ronda Patrick covered this in much better detail, they're missing the huge component of gut health and endotoxin entering the blood stream causing heart disease.
I've just been cutting processed foods and cutting out seed oils... The reduction of seed oils via deep fried food and only cooking with coconut oil has made a bigger difference on how I feel than anything I've tried. Keto would probably be a better move but I've tried it but can't stick to it
@@chris-nj3vg That is based on studies where they did not correct for carb intake. Saturated fats on their own will cause you to gain weight or clog arteries
I can't take Kresser seriously ever since he was destroyed in a debate by ex UFC fighter James Wilks! how on earth are you supposed to take him seriously while debating an actual surgeon???
Just cause he lost one debate (if he even did, I havent watched that debate yet) doesn't mean he's wrong on everything. It also doesn't mean you can dismiss his arguments. They seem pretty solid, and even if you don't trust him, the studies he references should speak for themselves
I agree! Kresser can't even read a forest plot. He knows so little about health and nutrition and is not qualified to give diet advice. He is not a nutritionist, a doctor, or an expert in the health field.
"winning" a debate is nothing more an indication of one's abilities to debate. It doesn't necessarily mean they are right or that they provide sound & accurate arguments . That's why I'm not a fan of debates, & prefer proper objective discussions.
the one dude keeps taking it away from saturated fat when the other dude is just talking about it lmao. One is debating saturated fat and the other is debating low carb
@@Aria-Invictus His point is that science has evolved a fuck ton since the 50s. Newer, much more precise, detailed, and more numerous studies have shown radically different results than what was found in the 50s. Dude on the left makes mostly observational and emotional points. The guy on the right only sites the most recent and accepted research. What's so hard to understand about that?
As my wife has a PhD in Statistics I feel comfortable reminding people that correlation is not causation. They picked saturated fat and tried to prove it was correlated. They didn't bother to figure out if it was actually doing anything or of anything else was related.
The American Heart Association recommends aiming for a dietary pattern that achieves 5% to 6% of calories from saturated fat. (11 g fat of 2000 kcal diet)
more than anything heart diseas prob comes from stress and metal health. including how we manage our diet i dont think most diseases come from a single source or a single problem but a mix of since the human body is so resilient
One thing I will say is that every time this argument comes up about dietary/animal/saturated fat causing heart attacks or not - all the proponents of that hypothesis state “every health agency says this and these people live this long with low fat diets” but then the detractors from the hypothesis point to dozens of cited studies and thousands of articles and excerpts from studies. Seems like one side has a stronger case than the other.
Joe should put Dr Greger of Nutrition Facts. Or at least Roy Cronise, who might be more fashionable. But Greger is the guy to bring to defend the "whole foods, plant based diet".
All nutrition boards recommend limiting saturated fat, dietary cholesterol, because they can't just say "limit meat intake". Why? Agriculture lobbies, beef and dairy check-off.
From Garth Davis, MD: Let’s start with the statement that there is no evidence that dietary cholesterol affects cholesterol. Wrong! It is true that most of our cholesterol is synthesized, only about 20-30% comes from diet. Also true that there is down regulation in synthesis with increased consumption. So we absorb about 60% of consumed cholesterol BUT this number may be lower if you are a high consumer and higher if you are a low consumer, which is why vegans will see a dramatic rise in cholesterol if they start eating it. That being said, ward studies show a very definitive increase in cholesterol with eating cholesterol. The prospective ward studies show an increase of 2-2.5 mg/dL per 100 mg of cholesterol. So he is clearly wrong. This effect is much lower than saturated fats effect on cholesterol. In fact, studies Kresser will cite to show dietary cholesterol won’t increase serum cholesterol were studies that increased dietary cholesterol BUT decreased saturated fat. A sneaky way to publish a study saying dietary cholesterol doesn’t increase serum cholesterol. Now the statement that higher cholesterol doesn’t affect mortality is UTTERLY wrong. I mean, c’mon!!! You could write a book on this, and many have been written. Hundreds of studies. This is why we have cholesterol lowering drugs. I can list so many studies here but let’s go with this recent excellent prospective study on people with low risk followed 10 yrs. www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.034273 Now, the statement that there is “no” evidence that saturated fat increases your risk of mortality is beyond ridiculous. None? Really? Studies clearly show that reducing saturated fat by switching to monounsaturated fat significantly reduces risk of cardiac event. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9366580/. Likewise, shifting saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat greatly decreases coronary events. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20351774/. Even replacing saturated fat with whole grains will reduce heart disease, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5492032/. This review showed that replacing saturated fat with carbs didn’t decrease heart disease but DOES decrease risk of death. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29174025/. Much of the issue may have to do with the food as a whole rather than just looking at saturated fat. Certainly saturated fat coming from meat is more tied to mortality www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966685/. Now it is vital to understand that there is data that suggests that saturated fat has no effect on cardiac events. How can there be such discrepancy. The main study that demonstrated this, and the most referenced study on the topic is this: scholar.google.com/scholar?q=saturated+fat+and+cardiovascular+mortality+scholarly&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=%23p%3DthFOEITShzoJ. I suggest you look at where the funding came from for this study. Now let me explain to you the trick in this study. They were looking to show that saturated fat did not affect heart disease. So, they wanted to eliminate all confounding factors that can contribute independently to heart disease. In doing so, they controlled for cholesterol. The problem here is the fact that saturated fat, in part, contributes to heart disease by increasing cholesterol. So basically they are removing the key pathological step. What is left are people who are not as affected by saturated fat. This is called over adjustment. Dr. Stamler provided excellent critique of this article in NEJM academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/91/3/497/4597072. Bottom line is that the literature certainly suggests cutting back on saturated fat is good for your heart. We know that the Ornish program and Dr. Esselstyn’s program cut saturated fat tremendously and actually reverse heart disease. jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274 I can go on forever but let’s get to longevity, because at some point I have to get back to my day job. So let’s go to the question of who lives longer. This is a tough one. Very hard to compare life long vegetarians and lifelong omnivores. So many variables. The EPIC Oxford trial attempted to compare vegetarians, vegans, and meat eaters. Of note, the meat eaters were low level meat eaters and controlled to be moderate veggie consumers. In other words, the meat eating control was healthier than your average omnivore in England, as evidence by lower mortality rates compared to their compatriots. There was in fact a mortality difference though small. Recently the authors did a much larger review, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4691673/#!po=40.4110. This exhaustive review showed vegetarians had much lower pancreas and blood cancer but all cause mortality was not lower. How could this be? Well they explain in their discussion that their results are different to the Adventist Health study and this may be because of differences in diet quality between the Adventist Health and the Epic group. This is CRUCIAL to understand. The Adventist Health Study May be the best population to study for several reasons. First off, the population is very similar. They live in the same area, they practice generally healthy lifestyle, yet they are genetically different. Many thousands have been placed in their database and followed for many years. The authors of the epic study note that one deficit in their study is the fact that there was not a large difference between their meat eaters, and even their high meat eaters were not eating a lot of meat compared to US meat intake. This is important. If you are doing a study looking at 2 groups but they don’t differ much with regards to the variable being measured then you won’t see big differences. In fact, the Adventist group had much larger differences between groups. Also, the Epic vegetarians and vegans were not very healthy eaters. In several studies this group was found to eat about the same amount of fiber, a measly 20 gm, as the meat eaters. Several studies showed that many did not supplement B12 or did not get at least 500mg of calcium. The Adventist group did better in these regards, though still not to the diet I recommend. The Adventist Health Study shows a clear longevity advantage www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10479225/, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23836264/. These are excellent well controlled studies. An excellent Meta-Analysis was done on vegetarians and mortality and it showed a definite benefit to cardiovascular mortality and lower cancer incidence. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22677895/. Of course, there have not been that many studies on vegetarians and longevity because there are not that many vegetarians. The literature, however, is rich with studies showing that lower meat consumption is associated with lower all cause mortality. I list many in my book but this is perhaps the best review: academic.oup.com/aje/article/179/3/282/103471
@@Billy97ify yep... None of these studies show people eating clean grass fed meat. Eating nitrates can cause cancer. Meat does not cause health issues, eating junk food causes health issues.
@@leviwilliams9601 Worse than that the studies don't even show what he claims. Epidemiological studies are too weak to claim strong evidence when the differences are so low. Even the authors don't make such claims. Of course, we don't endorse eating meat and fat in combination with carbs anyway.
The study was flawed. They took people that ate a high fat high carb diet with lots of processed food and didn't blame the trans fat processed meat but just put the blame on saturated fat.
He talkin about studies from 1949 and 1950s
@@aintfromrounhere8099 we found the vegan lol
Bruh there's been more studies agaisnt the saturated fat bad and not much for it. We went over this in my research class with one of the most famous researchers in the US and maybe the world. The vegans would not accept that eliminating fat might not benefit them. They're so invested in their reasoning but they couldn't be so sure if a simple fact breaks their whole personality.
@@ObamanableSnowman There are a lot more observational studies against saturated fat and not many non-observational studies for it.
There are plenty of times where we observe people starting a diet high on saturated fat, for example, people from other countries moving here, increasing their saturated fat intake, and then having a higher risk of heart disease.
But we don't take into account what else they might be eating.
If you have heart problems, the doctor is going to tell you to lay off the saturated fat. But you are also going to stop eating like crap, in general. Stop drinking soda, eating sugary snacks, etc.
There are plenty of countries, like France, who have diets that are high in fat, but they don't eat the amount of processed carbs that we do. And they don't have heart problems.
That's the crux of everything. Whether you are vegan or not, the sheer amount of processed carbs Americans eat is what is causing their heart problems. Not Saturated fat. We've been eating saturated fat for millenia.
@@Denny-Thray I have read tons and tons of expert doctors and researchers opin that saturated fat intake is associated with higher LDL and higher risk of these diseases. And almost all opposing opinion have been from aternative sources. Even people like What I've learned and Dr. Eric berg are both alternative sources.
I personally use a oil rich in saturated fat, and in the past I used to think like you because of this specific interview and tons of others, my cholesterol has been in tipping point of unhealthy for quite a while now, probably because of this.
I only use coconut oil because it doesn't produce trans fat like literally all other replacements I could find. I use it sparsely though.
It's better to be safe than sorry and this is why I'd probably never take advise from camps that deny these evidence altogether.
Get blood work, change and track diet for a couple of months, get blood work again. After that, who cares what general population trends occur with regards to diet, you'll know what works for you.
Best comment regarding diet I've ever read, you sir, are a blessing.
If only blood work mattered, sure. In reality, that’s just one of several health bio markers.
This is good advice.
That’s probably the most accurate advice you can give someone
@@SIIKAP1 it's better than the majority who just say they feel better and they're eating what tastes best.
"while listening to this pod cast someone dies every 39 seconds" *left arm go numb* "Awww geez..."
laughed way harder than I should
39 likes hmmmm
Mario 46*
were you fapping when your left arm goes numb? Then you are ok, as far as dying of a heart attack, fapping to rogan is a whole 'nother issue.
you make your hand go numb BEFORE jerking off.. its called a stranger... lrn2insult.....
Professor Joey Diaz has published numerous studies on the health benefits of eating ass and avoiding ranch dressing.
Which is even more amazing cos it tastes like ass ,
oh my god dude I shit my pants laughing at this comment
The guy in the suit is an idiot. Fat is good for you
Hahahaha same!
I have high cholesterol and eat lots of saturated fat yet I have had multiple coronary artery calcium scans over the last few years that have scored zero which means I have zero buildup/blockage in my coronary arteries, so no heart disease. As the first guy pointed out we didn't see lot of heart attacks in the early 20th century but we did start seeing them increase exponentially in the later 20th century. Why? It wasn't because more people were eating more saturated fat. It was the opposite. More people were eating less saturated fat and more processed sugar laden foods. It's not the cholesterol and saturated fat that causes heart disease it's the sugar and junk carbs.
Exactly, and not only the processed sugars also seed oils that were marketed as “heart healthy”.
Well said!
Saturated fat and calorie consumption in general was lower before WW2. During the post war boom, meat and dairy consumption increased greatly. Ancel Keys' tipoff to the causal role fat played was that heart disease decreased during rationing, when meat and dairy were very restricted.
Not everyone is as susceptible to increased LDL from dietary sources. There are plenty of anecdotes of long lived people who ate a decent amount of saturated fat. That doesn't change the clear trends preset when we analyze diets for entire populations. And of course, there are RCTs at this point that controlled for diet directly.
You are right that refined carbs are a risk factor for heart disease. However, they're just as bad as saturated fat. No health guidelines recommend replacing sat fat for refined carbs. A lot of people might do that, but that's not a failure of the lipid hypothesis. It's that most people are terrible at feeding themselves.
Seed oils and sugar !
@@Strawbclock0 Look up sugar association and the tabacco industry. The whole low fat fad of dietary guidlines was created, reaserched and published by people who had stakes in sugar!
Saturated fat is essential, sugar isnt.
Sugar association is just another cartel. Following dietary guidlines which they still influence is like going to Marlboro for health advice.
Cut sugar and processed food completely out of your diet. That simple!!!!!
Not exactly easy to do though, those food are basically everywhere
@@aureeel it's not difficult at all. Just eat whole vegetables and lean meats fish etc
No thanks, I eat well 90% of the time so I can and will enjoy that diabolically good stuff at the weekend, and I feel sorry for anyone that deprives themselves of whatever makes them happy. Also, it's just not feasible for most people now as so many people are hooked on sugar etc. Cut out sugar and processed crap most of the time alright but don't forget the happy face! :D
@@I2ezident why don't you shoot up heroin? It'll make you happy... you know, when you're 50 and have already had 2 bypasses, you'll be thinking to yourself that you shouldn't have been eating the foods that make you "happy "
No it is not. Är du!
Joe "Saturated fat accelerates the absorption of dmt into the prostate which helps your hot loads tremendously" Rogan
ChuckleKnuckles lmao
ChuckleKnuckles better than Aubrey “paint your balls in marracaan cow-shit to harvest the unity with the spirits of Onnit’s matcha green tea” Marcabilly
10inch kettle bell butt plugs
@@Ableten bahaha
You don't even know what goes on between these ears, bro it's just my mentality.
Well when in comes to diet and cholesterol to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also for looking in to this matter from a different perspective and without being condemning from one's views and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering everyone's valid opinion, i honestly believe i forgot what i was going to say
Analysis by PCaralysis
Dude, I fucking read this shit. Lol
Dude....you got me lol
I was patiently waiting for your fucking point😂 this one was a good1
Lmao!
i love hearing the guy on the left start breathing into the mic after the right guy starts talking
hhuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh
@@henryg3313 found the vegan ^^
@@austinf9239 found the bullshitter.
@@Micscience oh another one lol still hurting vegans feelings even a year later 😂😂😂
@@austinf9239 As I bite into my Wendys jr bacon cheeseburger I realize how much of an idiot you are.
I'm not vegan but I am honest enough to realize the evidence is on their side.
Anything that tastes like shit is good for you and the food that does taste good like meat is obviously not as healthy.
"I never scooped sugar from a clogged artery"....and wet roads cause rainy days.
@@Noah-wv4td oh, high dietary cholesterol has been PROVEN "cause" heart disease? I thought the entire purpose of this particular debate was that it WASN'T PROVEN.
@@Noah-wv4td Except cholesterol is NOT BAD. It rises to help combat inflammation. It's what hormones are made out of, including Vitamin D when your skin hits the sunlight. So if vegans have the lowest cholesterol, assuming cholesterol was bad, then that would be a good thing.. Except cholesterol isn't bad.. Refined sugars and carbs raise insulin and cause inflammation, so the body increases its production of cholesterol as a bandage. So in this case, higher cholesterol is TELLING US there is inflammation, but at the same time, it's helping us combat it. But what do the doctors do? Give you statins to prevent you from producing the cholesterol.. So yes your blood cholesterol is lowered, but you just got rid of your bandage against inflammation, and the damage the insulin is doing plus the inflammation is still there! Now vegans have low cholesterol NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOW INFLAMMATION, they don't eat any animal products so the body has a tough time producing enough cholesterol. They have less protection against inflammation, less raw material to make hormones, low vitamin D, and the consequences are many (low sex hormones, adrenal fatigue, hypothyroid etc)
wood causes fire
Noah pitted vegans against omnivores? Or vegans against people on a western diet? Big difference
@@JM-co6rf just because there is more fire trucks in a city doesnt mean the fire trucks are bad, but it is a sign that it is bad
“Just talk normal we have plenty of time” 😂
Brilliant debate. Both guys being respectful, letting the other guy speak.
Yes but if he didn’t intervene to allow a counter argument one guy would have have just spoke the whole show.
JCmasters100 I can’t dispute that. His ego is getting bigger constantly these days.
@JCmasters100 Probably because dr. Grease was debating badly, bringing up unrelated shit and studies from 70 years ago. Like science hasn't improved since then.
yrah but one is a jerkoff with a gold chain
More like one guy talking endlessly and being extremely biased and acts like a slimy politician vs a guy who is an obvious critical thinker and exudes logic.
The sugar industry has been trying to point the finger of blame at fat for decades.
@Mr. Mopar then they added even more sugar to make up for the lack of flavor..
@Mr. Mopar yeah blood sugar spikes are responsible for the bulk of people's weight gain. I recommend a high protein, high fiber diet and weight training to anyone that will listen. What is going to accelerate your weight loss, and keep the weight off, is going to be adding lean muscle to your body. Muscle is hungry stuff.
@@Thezuule1 What do you consider high fiber? Thanks
@CriticalZero PCOS and thyroid issues can cause weight gain. Carbs can cause weight gain in people with these issue. Healthy carbs cause weight gain in some people.
@CriticalZero If only that was true.
They should have looked at what was changing in the american diet that heart disease became an issue. Butter and Meat wasn't new.
It was after new the war period when butter meat etc was more scarce
@@pentachronic Calm down, Mongolian population is consuming lot of meat and animal fats, whereas India has highest ratio of vegetarians, both countries have similar life expectancy, with Mongolia being slightly ahead. Diet alone is not to blame for everything, lifestyle has far bigger impact. Whole anti-meat/animal product hysteria is driven by vegan ideologists, not actual science.
I'm so glad the people are seeing past these bullshit doctors recommendations. Cut out sugar, wheat and vegetable and seed oils. This is the way.
It was the OIL. They added oils to the diet and transfats.
@@kirangovind4934 why cut out vegetables lol. spinach is very good, asparagus, broccoli same
I have genetic high cholesterol, born with it and in my family. My grandfather had his first heart transplant when he was only 45. When I was 18 I had arteries that were “clogged” in the 99 percentile to the point that they were those of a 40 year. After taking medication and reducing cholesterol and saturated fat in my diet (I am vegetarian now, say what you want about that) my arteries have cleaning out to the 50 percentile and that of a mid 20 year old. This was only 4 years.
Chris is talking garbage
Going vegan will improve your lipid profile even more. You may even be able to get off the statins.
Did you reduce your carb intake too?
@@kerry_runs Statins are never a good idea
Okay, how do you differentiate between the effects of the medication vs dietary changes?
Key thing here is the fact that this seemed to boom after WWII. That’s when processed convenience foods became widely distributed. And fast food chains followed. The fact that this wasn’t our great great great grandparents case who ate meat dairy, eggs, vegetation, lived off the land, tells you most likely it’s the processed crap that is the problem. Eat more whole food, plants and meats.
amen
It's when trans-fats were introduced and there was a BOOM in toxic seed oils
I live in a country where almost all of our food is fresh eaten still we have high MI(becouse we love meat so much), our grandparents life expectancy was much lower than ours they didn't live to become older and to be exposed to heart attacks and even if they were they I don't think they were recorded as a MI
It's honestly become so convoluted that no one can tell you what's good for you anymore. Everything will kill you depending on who you talk to.
Wrong.
As they say ‘confusion is our product’. Please trust yourself! Check our blood work. Switch to any diet you want to experiment. Follow it precisely for 6 weeks. Do another blood work. See the results. Switch again tho the next diet for 6 weeks. Do the blood work and see what is said. Evaluate how you feel after both diets- tired, no energy, constipation, etc… whichever feels better- keep going with that one! Do the study on yourself first!
@Dimi F Now that's an actual answer that I can agree with. Not like Professor Dingleberry that posted his "Wrong " comment.
The only diet that's used as an intervention for heart disease, successfully I might add, is a WFPB diet with little fat. I am not suggesting it's the healthiest diet since it's an intervention for extreme cases, but there are no clinics using low carb diets as interventions for heart disease. Not a single one.
Always take baseline cholesterol levels into account when studying the effects of dietary saturated fat and cholesterol.
They dont, cause if they do, it is clear that if you have healthy baseline levels , or if you have low dietary levels, your cholesterol shoots up ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1534437 , meta analysis and review)
@@nunoschumacher6028 I noticed that too. I have also read into the study more and found it interesting that the people they used in the analysis already had high levels of cholesterol before the study. If you give an egg to someone who already has high cholesterol, of course their numbers won't go up significantly - put a twig on a bonfire and see if it makes a difference. But if you give an egg to someone who is living a whole foods plant based diet void of any amount of animal proteins, then their cholesterol shoots up.
Exactly
@@TheBeardedSandman Look up the elderly gentlemen who eat 35-30 eggs a day long term - no cardiovascular issues... perhaps it isn't as simple as "cholesterol bad mkay" the brain, mothers milk, our lipid cells etc - all cholesterol
@@theboraxbandit9563 I really think I made that comment more than 2 months ago... my opinion on the matter has been shifting quite a lot.
First, I really don't think the cholesterol we eat correlates to high cholesterol in the blood. It's only a small percentage of dietary cholesterol that actually gets metabolized into the body anyway, so the cholesterol in eggs doesn't really do much.
The second argument is about saturated fat and it's effect on cholesterol. While I do believe eggs increase cholesterol in the blood due to saturated fat metabolism in the liver, most of that cholesterol is actually HDL, not LDL. If anything, eggs are good for your heart depending on how you cook them.
Lastly, there was a study on monkeys a while back - they fed monkeys pure cholesterol and within weeks they were all having heart attacks, but then they looked at the quality of the cholesterol and found that most of it had oxidized. When they fed the monkeys non-oxidized cholesterol, all the heart attacks stopped. Looks like the quality of the food you eat and how you prepare said food matters just as much as what the food actually is.
There's so much more that goes into this. But no, I don't think eggs are America's heart disease problem. Refined grains, processed foods, sedentary lifestyle; these are the true causes.
France and Switzerland are the biggest consumers of saturated fats and they also have the lowest heart- and cardiovascular disease rates in the world.
Are their cows A1 or A2?
The egg study Kresser cites was literally published by the egg industry. lol
Eggxactly
Big egg
You're going to have a shock when you find out that every academic research is funded by someone
@@LJ7000 one thing is institute funding, another thing is funding from the FOOD industry that clearly needs the results to go their way
I just did a large exhaustive study....I ate all the meat and fat in my lab/kitchen...several lbs.....burp....I'm sure I will die shortly....because a vegan told me...the vegan agenda started by the religious cult who thought animal foods cause masterbation....The Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Joe talking down to literally a heart doctor like he knows more than the doc. Not a good look bro. If it was Rhonda saying those things...
@Christopher Har V mate, you gotta question causation. Atherosclerosis causes thrombolitic plaquing in forms of cholesterol trying to repair the damage, doesn't mean that cholesterol is the criminal in heart disease.. i mean look at the eskimos and hunter-gatherers.
The thing is that Ancel started with 28 countries but crossed out 19 of them to come to his conclusions because they were not in line with his hypothesis... I view it kind of like seratonin for depression. The reason suicide is listed as a side-effect of antidepressants is because different levels of seratonin show up in different mental diseases and someone not having a reuptake issue could easily be depressed. Yet so far we didnt find a better explanation so we went like ok this seems the most legitimate mechanism of action. I mean eggs contributing to atherosclerosis was "proven" by feeding rabbits (a herbivore) eggs. Cereal companies enjoy and fund such researches, and high carb foods like pasta are cheap to produce, durable and a good business model
And rightly so, that doctor is full of shit;
David Diamond- Demonization and Deception in Cholesterol Research
czcams.com/video/yX1vBA9bLNk/video.html
in my opinion...
@@RonDotComnz basically an opinion of a psychologist discussing cardiovascular health. LMAO, how relevant.
@@jonb2437
One takes truths as one perceives them, from wherever and whomever they arise.
Cardiovascular experts recommend low fat and six servings of grains per day- should I take cognisance of such expert advice, simply because they're experts?
Experts are a multi choice affair...
I'm a fitness trainer of 25 years. One word: Adkins. High saturated fat diet, high cholesterol diet, low REFINED CARBOHYDRATES, low REFINED SUGARS = lower bad cholesterol, higher good cholesterol. Saturated fats and high cholesterol are only bad when you mix with refined carbs and sugars. No more than 20 grams of saturated fat per day (Even good Sat Fats), eat unrefined carbs and sugars for your energy level of the day, push your heart with cardiovascular aerobic exercise 5-6 days per week. Push your muscles with weight resistance of some kind 3-5 days per week. Period.
Tbh, the doctor looks the healthiest out of the 3 of these guys.
and he's also the oldest by at least 15 years
Arent them both Doctors ?
what is a doctor?
Thank you for this! It‘s nice to see two people who disagree talk to each other for a change!!!!
One of the “bloodiest” Uber nerd battles ever. I learned a fuck ton, most of all, NO DOUGHNUTS.
What the guy in black doesn't acknowledge is that excessive carbohydrates oxidize LDL and help create Lipoprotein(a), preventing the recycling of LDL by the liver. Lipoprotein(a) is readily absorbed into the blood vessel lining, where macrophages soak up the molecules, creating the white foam that puts pressure on the cell wall and leads to calcification of the arteries.
Incorrect
@@youtubeaccount1815 Lol, incorrect how? Elaborate please "youtube account"
Glucose only oxidizes LDL significantly if you have diabetes or prediabetes. If you are eating a low fat diet and losing weight, your insulin sensitivity improves. Sugar doesn't cause diabetes.
@@Magnulus76 word? Excess Sugar causes you to get fat. Once you get fat you start getting in insulin resistant. Keep on sugaring and the diabetes party begins.
@@brucethompson4011 Sugar doesn't make you fat unless you are in a state of caloric excess.
2tbsp of olive oil has 4g of saturated fat compared to a 7oz pork chop has 10g…
The doctor said that heart attacks became an issue in the 1940s or at skyrocketed but were people eating earlier than 1940 were dating less meat eggs cheese and butter?
Up until the industrial revolution and before we could ship fruits around the globe, the majority of the world was in ketosis for 9-10 months of the year. Cholesterol is not a factor unless there is a pre-existing nutrient deficiency, typically Vitamin C. This deficiency in our American society is typically caused by excessive blood insulin, which in turn is related to excessive carbohydrate ingestion.
Dietary cholesterol (that which comes from the foods you eat) only accounts for 20-25% of the cholesterol your liver makes each and every day. These knuckle heads are arguing over something which is not significant. Well...one is arguing. The body needs lots of cholesterol. Your nerve myelin sheaths, brain cells, sex organs, hormones, thyroid T4-T3 conversion and a bunch of other processes require cholesterol production.
Seeing cholesterol build up in blood vessels is a sign that something else is going wrong in the vascular and arterial walls (lesions). have you noticed that cholesterol is only a topic at issue with regard to heart and vascular health? Why is that?
Do you think the human body uses cholesterol and saturated fats well for all other systems and then somehow f***s up with regard to this singular system?? Think about it, the rise in heart attacks coincides with the rise in dietary sugars. We didn’t have the availability of year round processed grains and processed sugars and fruits until the last 120 years or thereabouts.
Lipoproteins carry BOTH cholesterol and triglycerides. The folks with heart disease also almost always have chronically elevated insulin levels.
We are only looking at fats as causative because Ancel Keyes was a dumbass lying manipulative bastard looking to falsely promote his own backward ideas.
There is only one blue zone which doesn’t consume animal products. The rest eat fatty fish and oils and animals. What they don’t eat is sugar and crappy processed oils. It’s the processed foods and all the sugars and stripped grains which cause the problems.
Our grains are absolute shit. We strip the grain and eliminate all of the B vitamins. The liver can’t cope with processing carbs in the absence of B vitamins. This is why Asia now has to contend with increased levels of Beriberi (B1 deficiency induced disease)
Want to heal your heart? Eat fats. Up your vitamin C intake without stimulating an insulin response. Insulin blocks uptake of Vitamin C. Vascular walls require elasticity and collagen like cells. These come from Vitamin C and certain amino acids as building blocks. The cholesterol will only cause a problem if there is a lesion to repair. If the arterial and vascular walls are healthy then the intelligent body systems won’t need to deposit cholesterol to patch the lesions.
This is not rocket surgery.
It’s time to get rid of the cholesterol-is-dangerous model. We have had the low fat/high carb idiots running our SAD guidelines since the 1970’s and during that same time we have seen DRASTIC rises in heart disease, cancer, diabetes. These chronic diseases all share the same root cause - Lactic acidosis due to excessive carbohydrate metabolism. This mechanism merely manifests differently in different persons. Root cause is identical.
1. Keto
2. Fasting
3. Micronutrient increase
4. Burst exercise training
5. Gut repair
That’s how you repair blood vessel damage
That’s how you reverse diabetes
That’s how you begin to address cancer
Very based
How do you increase vitamin C without an insulin response? Certain vegetables? I know fruits have lots of vitamin C but they all have sugar...but it’s natural sugar. Thanks for the summary!!!
Stupidest fucking comment ever, possibly.
Can I see the research you are referencing
Solid 👌.
What they aren't including in this discussion that I personally believe weighs very heavy on the amount of heart attacks and cholesterol, etc, etc, etc. is SMOKING AND STRESS. The speaker just glossed over the smoking contribution. Heavy saturated fat eaters coupled with smoking and stress. Men were dropping dead from smoking and stress. Okay so he admits smoking might effect it.
Excellent point.
I heard a good explanation which is, blaming cholesterol for heart disease is like blaming fireman for fires. Just because they are present at the event doesn't mean they are the cause.
Fuck if I know... Just an interesting take on it.
Close but not it. I'm not exactly sure that saturated fat helps against heart disease like a fireman does for a fire. It's more like just because then EMTs are present at fires doesn't mean they cause them.
The rate of heart attacks begins to rise in 1948. What changed about the american diet? Did people all of the sudden start eating meat and butter? Im pretty sure that had been going on forever. So what did change? Pretty sure people started eating a lot more sugar
Smoking went up a lot
Vegetable oils, sugar, Trans fat, refine flour
Eating meat is surely correlated with getting richer, which happened after WW2.
But of course it is multifactorial.
I was gaining weight and feeling really bad no matter what I was doing...exercising, lower calories. When you realize your body has no idea what a calorie is and that is a finely tuned machine that is controlled by hormones, losing weight and getting healthy is pretty easy....food isnt entertainment...it is nutrition.
"...you realize your body has no idea what a calorie is". No shit, a calorie is a unit of measurement defined by humans to represent energy. Your body knows what energy is. Eat less energy in the form of hundreds of calories a day and you lose weight, eat more energy and you gain weight.
@@leonman112 Eat less to no carbs and you get the results. Remember carbs are no essential and the shit they process and sell you is poison mostly..
@@leonman112oh my it’s much more nuanced than that
Eat too much sugar/ carbs, become unable to properly process saturated fats.
Too much of anything is bad but sugar and fats are the worst. Saying that try eating too many whole vegetables. Won't happen. You physically won't want to.
Cholesterol is in everyone and is essential. So don't fear cholesterol unless you are one of the people in a small group of people that have issues.
Its essential to have your OWN cholesterol. Eating it from animals heightens your chances to numerous diseases and ailments including heart disease and attacks.
Cholesterol, which is only available from other animals like ourselves, is together with saturated fat (richest sources: dairy and fatty meat) are the ONLY dietary causes of plaque formation in your blood vessels which long-term causes high blood pressure, heart disease and cognitive diseases. So don’t be giving advice like that without having any reviewed studies to back it up cause that can have dangerous consequences for people.
@@Sing4TheMoments our body produces cholesterol
Just further proof that Joe Rogan’s podcast is the greatest podcast ever created...and it’s not even close. What other podcasts give you this amount of insightfulness, variety, and civil, profound debate? Real talk 💯
Agreed. I appreciate hearing people debate about the issue instead of making a single video about either end of the spectrum.
but still confused should i eat butter or not tell me ???
I agree completely
Gov is itching to shut it down
Rogan only had this podcast after he got called out on Twitter for being extremely 1 sided in favor of keto/carnivore lol
So basically, the science on both sides has flaws and the best thing to do is eat whole, natural foods for now
Saturated fat is whole natural food, isn’t it
@@chriswachiralappaitoon6610 Yes
@Raimonster what lol
No. The saturated fat bad side is fundamentallly flawed in its conclusion
You can tell how irritated Joe got at 00:09 when Joel dropped his sarcastic comment
PLS BRING ON DR MICHAEL GREGOR
Hahaha, this bro science podcast is beneath the integrity standards of Dr Greger. Dr Kahn is too good for this clown show.
Still waiting for Dr. Garth Davis to be on the program.
The problem with the beta carotene study was that it compared food to synthetic pharma supplements. The two are not identical. Synthetic beta carotene can be pro oxidative, whereas getting beta carotene from whole foods is not. What's the take away? Eat your fruit and veggies, skip the pills.
You have to eat 12x the Beta carotene then retinol to get the same effect
No thanks to the fruit and veg, yes to the skipping pills
exactly what i was thinking.
Great podcast! I love the debate, it's good to hear both sides when it comes to your health.
It was a great discussion but let's all be honest. Joel Kahn is a real medical doctor with studies. Kresser is not a medical doctor. He studies pseudoscience chinese medicine. He tried to call out Kahn referencing epidemiology studies but then Kahn called him out using epidemiology studies to support his claims lol. Plus any studies Kresser referenced on cholesterol didnt measure at base line.
Definitely agree, he had a psychologist on earlier that said debates on serious topics need to be 6 hours or so, and i think this definitely paints a bigger picture instead of lobbing grenades of abuse and nitpicking articles on both sides.
@@TheKyleAye you either have selective hearing or didnt understand what Chris was saying. He never said epidemiology was to be completely thrown out. He said that it was easy to make mistakes with it when not properly controlled. He then cites properly controlled epidemiology along with a large number of random control trials... Meanwhile Kahn is making large conclusions based on correlation.
No, Chris was using flawed studies that amount to junk science. He refereed to a study that did not account for baseline cholesterol. The affect is not linear. The less you have, the greater the impact. If you already have a lot, there may be no impact. You can't take a bunch of unhealthy people who have high cholesterol, give them more knowing it will have no change, and then claim there is no connection. That is the stuff of con artists.
@@TheKyleAye but to my knowledge kresser talked more sense than the real Doc. Very scienific and to the point
Finally some clarity on this subject.....
Drink water, get a purifier, eat grass fed meats and wild fish, avoid fast food/junk food, and exercise.
You will likely be fine for the majority of your life
Bro please please please read the meta analysis. Consumed saturated fats directly correlates to serum cholesterol levels. Of course the body needs saturated fats but it is grossly over consumed in most American’s diets
You are reading the meta wrong... people who eat a lot of saturated fat in the US also eat a lot of sugar... Sugar is and was always the problem, not fat.
Ju Berry I need a straight up answer I usually eat eggs, ham sandwich’s with cheese,chicken and drink nothin but water... am I goin to die?
Ju Berry Red Herring. I’m not defending sugar. It’s clear that saturated fats lead to higher cholesterol levels. The problem is that crooked doctors fight against the notion that saturated fat does correlate to cholesterol by taking a sample of people who already consume ridiculous amounts of saturated fat so if you increase it, they show little to no change. BUT if you control for base levels of cholesterol it does indicate a correlation between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol. We’re referencing different research
@@eduardochavez82 yep
zbLoodlust087 i eat nothing but greens and meat. I train a lot. I never drink any sugar and my only carbs come from potatoes... i eat 6-7 eggs a day. That for 5 years, since i started training. My bloodwork are a1.
Exercice + No sugar = you live
That's that simple.
I went vegan after two successive yearly blood tests showing upward trending cholesterol and blood sugar. After one year vegan on a whole foods plant based diet, all markers dropped back into healthy range. Lost 12 kilos and my cardio fitness and general energy levels have increased dramatically. Before this change of diet I was consuming a predominantly Mediterranean diet and thought vegans were loopy. Having made the change the only regret I have now is not doing it earlier.
I would agree that short term vegan diets are cleansing... but don't fool yourself thinking you can stay vegan long term. You will starve. Plants are cleansing and medicine, and meat is building and nourishing.
Vegan diet = dum dum and u die early GG NO VITAMIN B12 U LOSE ALL OMEGA 3 AND DIE CUZ UR LOVE FOR COWS. :)
@@inspiringmedia3716 Inspired
@@theboraxbandit9563 LMAO 🤣🤣
@@theboraxbandit9563 yes, I am 44 years old and have been Vegan since 1995. I am doing iron man and outperforming 20 year olds. Just waiting for that malnourisment to kick in 😂
The development of processed 🛢 oils.
Early Cotton oils, Sunflower, vegetable and seed oil's.
Cholesterol is an anti-inflammatory agent and is also essential in the production of vitamin D.
If experts CAN NOT agree on how/what to eat, how the hell are the common folks supposed to know what to do???
Go with the science. The science of nutrition is physiology. Foods that are used in metabolic pathways. Brian Peskin is highly recommended.
It's crazy how we don't know what's good or not nowadays. A couple of years ago fat was bad, vegetables were good, and meat affected your body negatively. I'm just gonna eat and consume things that don't personally make me feel bad.
Its fake scientists getting a platform. The top guys haven't changed their recommendations.
Follow the money. Just look at all the Paleo related junk Kresser is trying to sell on his website, and check his medical credentials, what does this tell you!?
Do yourself a favor and look up the papers Kresser's cites, not his blog. A good example of the egg study. That study contradicts his view on saturated fat and cholesterol, but he cites the sentence on egg intake and cholesterol. Not only that, the folks in that study already had high cholesterol. He is cherry picking studies and in some cases, cherry picking sentences in the studies, and there are many contradictions when you look at his sources.
@@user-oj2is7eu5h If the advice that hasn't changed was correct, why has obesity and diabetes not get any better? Why has it actually gotten worse? Because they were wrong.... OBVIOUSLY. If it worked,it would have worked. Simple.
Fiddler Green That proves absolutely nothing.
I really wished that he mentioned that the so called blue zones with a high life expectancy conveniently left out regions where people eat a lot of animal products but still don't have problems with heart disease.
Which ones? Genuinely interested to know
@@byggerEttSlott The Masai tribes in central Africa are a frequently referenced example. Another lesser-known example is the Arab country of Oman, especially populations who live in rural areas outside of the big cities. They're known for for their longevity and generally Better Health markers than people who live in the urban areas, yet they still include a lot of animal protein in their diet. Granted it is all wild stuff they raise or hunt themselves.
@@brodietaym8475 The problem isnt really the meat honestly....loads of tribes in the jungles eat meats and i dont think they worry about heart disease,the problem is that in "developed countries" the animals are fed nonsense and overly controlled in how they grow...
I agree. I never said otherwise.
@@brodietaym8475 The average lifespan of the Masai 43. Not really a blue zone.
This Kahn guy never awnsers a single question, he talks just like a politician.
How about they try using the word OVERCONSUMPTION? This word is downplayed to the point where "authorities" within a subject use it as a invisible catalyst to carry an idea. However it's importance could be the central thesis of the arguement. There are other countries that have access and consume the same types of high fatty or processed foods that we have. But why are their obesity levels, heart disease levels, and heart attack risks so low in comparison to ours? Because America consumes up to 5x the amount of something that the rest of the world does, Britain is EVEN MORE! They brought up Japan alot, arguably the healthiest country in the world, but failed to mention their portion sizes and consumption rates compared to ours. We over consume almost everything that doesnt have a warning label and even then still fuck it up with the massive pharmaceutical OD death statistics rising and alot of them are accidental. So you put NO WARNING on overconsumption for alcohol, fast food, or processed food, and then consume 5x the amount required for energy and nutrition, then act surprised when your cells call it quits after being redlined everyday for 15 years? Try putting a 63 Octane rated fuel in your car and then drive everyday carrying maximum load, and scratch your head when the engine says FUCK YOU and seizes.
Pepe why eat steak at all? You dont need to kill or eat sat fat/cholesterol/blood/feces/dioxins/arachodonic acid to be healthy.
@@angelg8445 I meet alot of fat unhealthy vegans. If you have to supplement to survive, its dumb
Well said, Black. Everybody's bumping heads because of minutia like fats, cholesterol and sugar, when in fact the issue is plain abuse. Let's face it, Amercans love to pig the fuck out. It's the abuse that's the issue, not the occasional Coke, fries, burgers, whatever.
any consumption of animal fat causes atherosclerosis i.e. Heart disease
tell us how you really feel about it
I would be really curious to see a study comparing low carb diets to moderate/high carb diets BUT with one group consuming mostly processed and simple carbs (packaged and boxed snacks, high sugar cereals etc) and the other group consuming complex and natural carbs. Or at least have more studies when comparing low carb diets to diets who are eating carbs but only complex ones (i.e. sweet potatoes, quinoa, sprouted no sugar added breads etc.) because I wonder if when they are using individuals who eat carbs that are filthy carbohydrates and loaded with weird oils, sugars and stuff like de-caking agents and other weird chemicals that we shouldn't be eating to make the product look, feel, or smell a certain way that naturally wouldn't be so. I think there would be a huge difference in results.
If kcal are equated there wont be a difference in weight loss, will be some other differences in other health markers over time
Look up Kevin Hall. He did such studies.
i like how he saids look at japan less cholesterol than americans look at france they eat all the stuff our guidelines say not to eat and they have very low risk at having heart attacks and have low cholesterol compared to us. what people over look is the lifestyles japan and france both have very active cultures it’s not uncommon for someone in france to walk on an advantage 5 miles a day. i know some people here that sit in a office and do next to no walking maybe walk 5 miles a week. it’s not just what you eat it’s also how you live. japan also eats differently most don’t keep enough food in their homes to last 3 days. they eat less and eat out while on the move and don’t eat late. how many people in america work late and eat when they get home. there’s a million factors. constant hard stress on a person who eats right and works out can cause a rise in cholesterol.
our system is so fed up it’s crazy for years they told us crap like margarine and diet sodas was great for us. Now they say their horrible for you.
That's because he, like ancel keys, is strategically choosing his examples out of a plethora of data to support his hypothesis. To him making a point is more important than reviewing the full body of data.
True, it's multi-factored and much more complex than what people make it out to be.
No, when looking at the actual data, the French have those things in very little amounts compared to the amount of vegetables and fruits that they eat.
hundreds of phd dietry researchers commented below all saying different things.
Where? Too much dmt this morning? Been there mate.
They just started having blood pressure meds my parents said back than you couldn’t afford it you had to suffer
Hi, I'm Chris Kresser and I have a degree in chinese medicine. I've never published any research and have no PHD, but let me tell you why all major medical groups are wrong along with the scientific consensus
Mason Bilbrey listen vegan, shut the fuck up... no one cares... 🙄
@@AlbertaViking1977 hey scumbag fuck u
Alberta Viking please go buy Chris' bone broth keto paleo super food supplement
Chris was going off other scientist studies
Den Harry retarded scientists bc the rest of the scientific and medical community moved on from this long ago and we’ve already declared these guidelines bc of the evidence .. here dude 395 tightly controlled metabolic wards proving saturated fat and cholesterol significantly raises serum and LDL cholesterol with 4/5s of the raise in LDL cholesterol... there is no better science than tightly controlled dietary interventions www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9006469/
When I went keto I lost 50 lbs - blood work perfect, blood pressure perfect, appetite under control. This is somehow bad for me?
Don't worry this guy is a fucking hack who formulates arguments as well as Donald trump
Keto is good short term for quick weight loss, as all fad diets are, or for a kick start for moving into a more healthier diet. But if you do this long term, yes it's very bad for you! And unsustainable. Just eat a healthy balanced diet where the majority of your food comes from nutricious whole plant foods and be active. Good luck :)
@@laurahopkinson8415 Will I be filled with boogymen? Or maybe bad spirits? Or how about "toxins"?
Because people feel bad for animals and want you to feel bad also
This is a great conversation. Thanks Joe.
If you have so many opinions about this- maybe it is not the most important thing for stress. Connection is much more important. I wish people debated the best way of giving empathy.
This is very important and easy to miss!!! Kresser brings up two meta-analyses at 7:05, which Kahn fails to strongly rebut UNTIL 19:55. It's obvious that Kahn had responses but didn't immediately realize which studies Kresser was referring to (since he doesn't reference authors). Also, Kresser never responds to Kahn's points, indicating that he may have missed the fact that he was addressing the two meta-analyses he brought up as evidence! If you don't connect those dots, you'd be left thinking Kresser's 1-2 punch was KO, but those studies were widely criticized as Kahn touches on.
Weird how he was at 7:05 as I read your comment.
My father would eat a big greasy bacon sandwich every morning then go to Mcdonald’s everyday get a fish fillet large fries and a Big Mac and for dinner a large pizza pie extra cheese and giant calzone and he lived to the ripe old age of 42 i thought that was pretty good
Scott DuPont no smoking drugs or alcohol sugar wasn’t his thing notice nothing sweet on his menu just lots of saturated fat he was a cyclist and swimmer doctors said poor diet was the cause
Scott DuPont Carbohydrates consist of starches, sugar and fibre. Wheat contains basically 0 sugar and a lot of fiber. So your statement that flour is 70% sugar is wrong.
There's tons of carbs and Trans fats in your aforementioned diet. Which today are considered the root causes of inflammation and auto immune disease, according to the leading science of today.
@@triger1 well, technically all carbs(simple as well as complex) are chains of sugar molecules but no food or macro group is bad for you unless u exceed your caloric goals..but the thing is, saturated fat foods actually keep u satiated for a much longer time than carb rich foods expect potato which is also not actually bad within caloric limits..
So basically he ate cheap, highly processed foods without a lot of nutrition, his meat and cheese likely came from grain fed cows, and he got lots of trans fats and carbs - and yet you blame it on the saturated fats. This is one of the problems, to look at ONE FACTOR RETROSPECTIVELY and imply that that must have been the problem and cause. Sorry, this is not reliable or helpful information and actually doesn't say anything about how much saturated fats or any other factor contributed to his premature death.
Not sure what Chris is talking about Olive oil has mostly Monounsaturated fat in it. Also different types of saturated fats (there's mainly 3 different types we attain from diet, Lauric, Palmitic and Stearic acid) have different effects on health.
Why the full debate video is unavailable anymore?
Because Kahn slaughtered the other guy 🚶♂️, I still remember Kahn talked about one of the carnivore champion - Charles poliquin
died like a rat at 57 to a heart attack
Feel like the guy on the right was more objective and impartial. While the guy on the left had a conclusion he needed to defend.
all i got from this whole thing was one guy saying "hey go read this article (states article) that pushes my narrative and then the other guy going "thats not correct! go read this article (states article ) that pushes my narrative"
Why is the original video down ( I mean private
Dr Ronda Patrick covered this in much better detail, they're missing the huge component of gut health and endotoxin entering the blood stream causing heart disease.
Yeah let's have a cardiologist debate a journalist lol
Doctor's and any "degree" literally only spend a small amount of time on nutrition.
Dr. Rhonda Patrick should of been on this
'have' not 'of' ... learn your own language
Nautilus1972 calm down douche 😂
I've just been cutting processed foods and cutting out seed oils...
The reduction of seed oils via deep fried food and only cooking with coconut oil has made a bigger difference on how I feel than anything I've tried.
Keto would probably be a better move but I've tried it but can't stick to it
Coconut oil is horrible, it has an insane amount of saturated fat.
@@PeaShooter1997 saturated fat is fine in the absence of carbohydrates.
The evidence shows that we should swap out saturated fat with unsaturated fat. You have done the opposite...
@@chris-nj3vg That is based on studies where they did not correct for carb intake. Saturated fats on their own will cause you to gain weight or clog arteries
Dr. Rhonda Patrick says you are wrong sir! They get nervous and just start going in circles 😂
I can't take Kresser seriously ever since he was destroyed in a debate by ex UFC fighter James Wilks! how on earth are you supposed to take him seriously while debating an actual surgeon???
Just cause he lost one debate (if he even did, I havent watched that debate yet) doesn't mean he's wrong on everything. It also doesn't mean you can dismiss his arguments. They seem pretty solid, and even if you don't trust him, the studies he references should speak for themselves
I agree! Kresser can't even read a forest plot. He knows so little about health and nutrition and is not qualified to give diet advice. He is not a nutritionist, a doctor, or an expert in the health field.
@@TheRealmusic18 argument from authority
"winning" a debate is nothing more an indication of one's abilities to debate. It doesn't necessarily mean they are right or that they provide sound & accurate arguments . That's why I'm not a fan of debates, & prefer proper objective discussions.
Kresser didn't lose the debate. The other guy was just a better bullshitter.
If I’m joe Rogan and I’m seeing the Docs skin in comparison to his age that should be enough to look into it lol.
We’ve always been eating saturated fat. It was the introduction of sugar and highly processed food when heart disease skyrocketed.
The guy on the left keeps leaving out the sugar rather added or not lol
Glad that’s all cleared up. /s
the one dude keeps taking it away from saturated fat when the other dude is just talking about it lmao. One is debating saturated fat and the other is debating low carb
It's because the studies showing saturated fat was bad had very high carb as well, negating the entire study....
Same thing. Low carb means predominantly fat
I love listening to both viewpoints.
The guy on the left cites studies when smoking was 'healthy'.
What does the cigarette studies have to do with the food studies? This just a way to dismiss Khan's points because you don't like what he said?
@@Aria-Invictus His point is that science has evolved a fuck ton since the 50s. Newer, much more precise, detailed, and more numerous studies have shown radically different results than what was found in the 50s.
Dude on the left makes mostly observational and emotional points. The guy on the right only sites the most recent and accepted research. What's so hard to understand about that?
@@bubblejuiceman recent studies are also industry funded way more...
As my wife has a PhD in Statistics I feel comfortable reminding people that correlation is not causation. They picked saturated fat and tried to prove it was correlated. They didn't bother to figure out if it was actually doing anything or of anything else was related.
Anyone one else baffled that NEITHER guy bring up quantities of food?
This is great.
The American Heart Association recommends aiming for a dietary pattern that achieves 5% to 6% of calories from saturated fat. (11 g fat of 2000 kcal diet)
The American Heart Association is a joke.
more than anything heart diseas prob comes from stress and metal health. including how we manage our diet i dont think most diseases come from a single source or a single problem but a mix of since the human body is so resilient
JOE YOU NEED PAUL CHEK ON THE SHOW
One thing I will say is that every time this argument comes up about dietary/animal/saturated fat causing heart attacks or not - all the proponents of that hypothesis state “every health agency says this and these people live this long with low fat diets” but then the detractors from the hypothesis point to dozens of cited studies and thousands of articles and excerpts from studies. Seems like one side has a stronger case than the other.
Where’s the full lockdown episode gone?!
Joe should put Dr Greger of Nutrition Facts. Or at least Roy Cronise, who might be more fashionable. But Greger is the guy to bring to defend the "whole foods, plant based diet".
Nice editing/moderating job on Rogan's part, totally can tell that he has no bias!
it's because he knows the truth and cuts the bullshit, like conspiracy theory tangents. well done in my opinion.
why is the original not accesable???
All nutrition boards recommend limiting saturated fat, dietary cholesterol, because they can't just say "limit meat intake". Why? Agriculture lobbies, beef and dairy check-off.
No because junk food like potato chips, nachos, and other crap are the main problem. Carbs with high amounts of fat.
@@EbonyPope then that's no carbs per se, but fat, salt, and too much.
They needed Dr Rhonda in on this.
She is a joke
@@luisvanden2053 she really isn't.
Cardiac Dr vs acupuncturist, you decide..lol
Appeals to authority are so boring. Come with an actual argument or don't come at all.
21:59 - what word did joe use? did he mean “applicable”?
"2 tbsp of olive oil has more saturated fat than a 7oz porkchop" it takes like 14 seconds and 2 google searches to figure out that's a lie lmao
Yeah that doesnt seem right lol
Vegans either talk fast or slow that depends on how carbed they are.
Wahid Khuram Chris must be undercarbed. He isn't vegan, but he talks so sloooow!
@@Aria-Invictus Yup he is catching up since he was a vegan a while ago, it takes time.
Wahid Khuram Nah. He is getting slower.
From Garth Davis, MD:
Let’s start with the statement that there is no evidence that dietary cholesterol affects cholesterol. Wrong! It is true that most of our cholesterol is synthesized, only about 20-30% comes from diet. Also true that there is down regulation in synthesis with increased consumption. So we absorb about 60% of consumed cholesterol BUT this number may be lower if you are a high consumer and higher if you are a low consumer, which is why vegans will see a dramatic rise in cholesterol if they start eating it. That being said, ward studies show a very definitive increase in cholesterol with eating cholesterol. The prospective ward studies show an increase of 2-2.5 mg/dL per 100 mg of cholesterol. So he is clearly wrong. This effect is much lower than saturated fats effect on cholesterol. In fact, studies Kresser will cite to show dietary cholesterol won’t increase serum cholesterol were studies that increased dietary cholesterol BUT decreased saturated fat. A sneaky way to publish a study saying dietary cholesterol doesn’t increase serum cholesterol.
Now the statement that higher cholesterol doesn’t affect mortality is UTTERLY wrong. I mean, c’mon!!! You could write a book on this, and many have been written. Hundreds of studies. This is why we have cholesterol lowering drugs. I can list so many studies here but let’s go with this recent excellent prospective study on people with low risk followed 10 yrs. www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.034273
Now, the statement that there is “no” evidence that saturated fat increases your risk of mortality is beyond ridiculous. None? Really? Studies clearly show that reducing saturated fat by switching to monounsaturated fat significantly reduces risk of cardiac event. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9366580/. Likewise, shifting saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat greatly decreases coronary events. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20351774/. Even replacing saturated fat with whole grains will reduce heart disease, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5492032/. This review showed that replacing saturated fat with carbs didn’t decrease heart disease but DOES decrease risk of death. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29174025/. Much of the issue may have to do with the food as a whole rather than just looking at saturated fat. Certainly saturated fat coming from meat is more tied to mortality www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3966685/.
Now it is vital to understand that there is data that suggests that saturated fat has no effect on cardiac events. How can there be such discrepancy. The main study that demonstrated this, and the most referenced study on the topic is this: scholar.google.com/scholar?q=saturated+fat+and+cardiovascular+mortality+scholarly&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&p=&u=%23p%3DthFOEITShzoJ. I suggest you look at where the funding came from for this study.
Now let me explain to you the trick in this study. They were looking to show that saturated fat did not affect heart disease. So, they wanted to eliminate all confounding factors that can contribute independently to heart disease. In doing so, they controlled for cholesterol. The problem here is the fact that saturated fat, in part, contributes to heart disease by increasing cholesterol. So basically they are removing the key pathological step. What is left are people who are not as affected by saturated fat. This is called over adjustment. Dr. Stamler provided excellent critique of this article in NEJM academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/91/3/497/4597072.
Bottom line is that the literature certainly suggests cutting back on saturated fat is good for your heart. We know that the Ornish program and Dr. Esselstyn’s program cut saturated fat tremendously and actually reverse heart disease. jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/188274
I can go on forever but let’s get to longevity, because at some point I have to get back to my day job. So let’s go to the question of who lives longer. This is a tough one. Very hard to compare life long vegetarians and lifelong omnivores. So many variables.
The EPIC Oxford trial attempted to compare vegetarians, vegans, and meat eaters. Of note, the meat eaters were low level meat eaters and controlled to be moderate veggie consumers. In other words, the meat eating control was healthier than your average omnivore in England, as evidence by lower mortality rates compared to their compatriots. There was in fact a mortality difference though small. Recently the authors did a much larger review, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4691673/#!po=40.4110. This exhaustive review showed vegetarians had much lower pancreas and blood cancer but all cause mortality was not lower. How could this be? Well they explain in their discussion that their results are different to the Adventist Health study and this may be because of differences in diet quality between the Adventist Health and the Epic group. This is CRUCIAL to understand. The Adventist Health Study May be the best population to study for several reasons. First off, the population is very similar. They live in the same area, they practice generally healthy lifestyle, yet they are genetically different. Many thousands have been placed in their database and followed for many years.
The authors of the epic study note that one deficit in their study is the fact that there was not a large difference between their meat eaters, and even their high meat eaters were not eating a lot of meat compared to US meat intake. This is important. If you are doing a study looking at 2 groups but they don’t differ much with regards to the variable being measured then you won’t see big differences. In fact, the Adventist group had much larger differences between groups. Also, the Epic vegetarians and vegans were not very healthy eaters. In several studies this group was found to eat about the same amount of fiber, a measly 20 gm, as the meat eaters. Several studies showed that many did not supplement B12 or did not get at least 500mg of calcium. The Adventist group did better in these regards, though still not to the diet I recommend.
The Adventist Health Study shows a clear longevity advantage www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10479225/, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23836264/. These are excellent well controlled studies.
An excellent Meta-Analysis was done on vegetarians and mortality and it showed a definite benefit to cardiovascular mortality and lower cancer incidence. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22677895/.
Of course, there have not been that many studies on vegetarians and longevity because there are not that many vegetarians. The literature, however, is rich with studies showing that lower meat consumption is associated with lower all cause mortality. I list many in my book but this is perhaps the best review: academic.oup.com/aje/article/179/3/282/103471
I read a few of the pages that you linked and didn't see any conclusive results. You are lying about this.
@@Billy97ify yep... None of these studies show people eating clean grass fed meat. Eating nitrates can cause cancer. Meat does not cause health issues, eating junk food causes health issues.
@@leviwilliams9601 Worse than that the studies don't even show what he claims. Epidemiological studies are too weak to claim strong evidence when the differences are so low. Even the authors don't make such claims.
Of course, we don't endorse eating meat and fat in combination with carbs anyway.
What's better? Butter, margarine or a certain oil?
The original episode is now private. Hmmmmmmmmm......