Addressing the Moscow Mood | Doug Wilson & Sean DeMars
Vložit
- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Join us for a conversation with Doug Wilson and Joe Rigney from Canon Press as we discuss Federal Vision, the Moscow Mood, Ligon Duncan, the Embargo, mass communication, and... The sin of nuance?
If you are new to this channel, don't forget to subscribe!
bit.ly/48UFgAt
0:00 Intro
1:00 Opening Prayer
1:48 Unity and the Bond of Peace
2:35 Encouragement
4:20 What We Have in Common
6:05 Shifting Away From Moscow
9:50 How do you respond?
13:53 Federal Vision
28:00 Theological Triage
34:45 Evangelical Discourse
44:10 Ligon Duncan Controversy
56:42 Is the Woke Right Real?
1:03:00 Mockery toward true believers
1:10:00 Mean Comments Online
1:19:20 Should We ALL use slander?
1:22:45 Should I Repent?
1:25:30 Message to the Defenders Online
1:26:55 Comments About Ligon
1:33:40 DeYoung’s Article
1:36:30 DeYoung Doesn’t Have To Respond
1:41:44 Are you Quarrelsome?
1:44:40 What is Big Eva?
1:48:00 Why did Joe Leave Bethlehem?
1:51:10 Christian Cussing?
1:57:00 Fun Questions
2:01:32 Closing Prayer
2:02:00 Mission Conference AD
2:03:20 10ofthose AD
A lot of people are about to watch this video and realize Wilson is not the monster others make him out to be
This is how it’s done. Sit down in a room together & have an adult conversation seeking clarity & hearing from both sides. God is honored when we do this.
Not without not getting the first joke and exposing how much one is still tied to progressivism and saying your own race is your least favorite. lol
Love Doug, but I certainly wouldn’t look to him when it comes to people unafraid of optics in every direction
@@ChrisTisking12256 yes Doug definitely does all he can to not make the left mad…. 😂😂 🤡
Perhaps he meant human race. Is that possible?
@@ChrisTisking12256 He meant the human race, I think. Christians rarely think or speak in terms of "race" as established by humanists.
couldn't agree more! Amen!!!
Amen! This was pure gold. God was honored indeed.
Sean putting Kevin DeYoung and Lig Duncan to shame with his willingness to discuss his criticism of the Moscow Mood with the criticized!
I don't see how anyone is being put to shame here. If people at my church as asking me about an author or movement, and I give a nuanced, detailed response, it does not obligate me to sit down and chat with the authors and/or leaders. Our pastors and leaders are required to give clear, biblical direction as we interact with the world around us, not do a public conversation with all of them. I'm thankful for this conversation, but it is not something all pastors are required to do.
@@prawjeke Lig Duncan said not to throw grenades, but talk in person; and then threw grenades and refused to talk in person. Lig Duncan said:
1) The Moscow Mood is: "desensitized to its own spirit of mocking and slander...many of those mockers and slanderers, I have no reason to even think they're Christians."
2) The Moscow Mood are those who: "LARP faithfulness and courage on social media... put 'em in a room and you'd have them in a fetal position in three seconds"
3) The Moscow Mood has "problems at the levels of church, fidelity, and the gospel"
Don't you think Sean's approach is the better one?
@@briankohl3597 Apparently @prawjeke didn't listen to the part about selective "nuance..."
Lololololol. Clueless much?
I wouldn't say putting them to shame, I would say setting the example. God bless you Sean
Sean as someone who follows a lot of what Doug Wilson puts out I greatly appreciate your willingness to have this conversation especially after taking a ton of flack for your conversation with Ligon Duncan. Thank you helping bring nuance/clarity to this.
I've sat under Doug's ministry here in Moscow for 16 years. It's rare that someone is actually willing to talk with him about these matters. Thanks so much, Sean. You came incredibly prepared and this was probably the most productive recorded conversation about these things that I've ever watched. You are a brother who truly lives out Ephesians 4:3. Really appreciate you! May God bless your ministry!
Pastor DeMars, I wrote to you following your interview of Dr. Duncan asking that you would call your guests to the Matthew 18 heuristic. This interview demonstrates an overflowing commitment to Biblical conflict resolution, and the name of God is honored by you.
Sean, as a long time follower of the “Moscow Mood” I can not thank you enough for agreeing to this conversation. The folks in Idaho have been shunned and slandered for too long and your willingness to sit down with them and have a grown-up discussion exhibits biblical maturity that is all too rare in the church today. May the Lord bless your future efforts.
hi friend! can you explain to me the moscow mood and why it's so unpopular?
@@jamesrosner3840 Sorry for the delay in answering. The term "Moscow Mood" was coined by Kevin DeYoung in an article he wrote. He was warning people about what he sees as the dangers of the efforts of the various ministries in Moscow, ID. A google search will provide DeYoung's original article as well as several responses to it.
I have much respect for pastor DeYoung's ministry but he badly missed the mark with this article.
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133:1 Thanks for this conversation brother!
I'm so glad to see this sit down. I have the utmost respect to you for taking the opportunity to have a conversation.
Pastor DeMars, thank you SO much for having this conversation!
Sadly, KDY & Lig won’t do the same for their brother’s in Christ.
As a card-carrying Mosco Mood Enjoyer™️, I can't tell you how much I respect you for sitting down with these guys. This was a fantastic conversation, and I think it's desperately needed right now. Well done, brother.
I really appreciate your willingness to sit down with Doug and Joe, thank you for pursuing unity in the flock!
Excellent, Genuine, Brotherly Conversation about the differences of reformed ministry approaches! Great example for us all :)
Beautifully done. God bless you Sean for seeking peace & understanding.
Despite the overwhelming grace shown by Doug & Joe, Ligon should still repent.
Nicely done Sean. That took stones to initiate and follow through on. You went to Doug’s HQ and did a 1v2, demonstrating there is no 1v2, just 3 dudes who love and follow Christ. Great interview!
THIS
I don’t know Sean, and have only seen others react to his Ligon Duncan podcast… but I’m really glad he’ll at least talk to Doug, unlike a lot of people who will criticize, and strawman but won’t actually talk to any CN.
Thumbs up to Sean for that
Very solid interview. Respectful, honest, clarifying. Props to Sean DeMars for making the honest effort and going the extra mile.
Really enjoyed and learned much from this conversation. Thank you gentlemen for getting together and having the willingness to discuss hard issues. Doug has a way of communicating I believe that’s so unique. I’m certainly a better man, and Christian I believe for learning from him. I wish Ligon, any of the leaders that are opposed to Doug to simply tear down the wall and have a charitable conversation. God bless you guys 🙏
Great job Sean! I appreciate your intellectual honesty. You’ve earned a new subscriber. God bless you and your family 🙏
Amen!
The comment section is already littered with comments like this, but I’ll just reiterate that it was a huge blessing to me that this interview happened.
Mad props to you, Sean! I’m a Doug Wilson fan and it was so great to see you do this.
This video should have at least 300 000 views - Reformed American Evangelicalism would be the far better for it. This interview is a great example of how to disagree with charity, when having intramural discussions. Really well done fella’s! From, South Africa
This interview which I watched entirely on Canon YT channel was so good. You did a great job, and allowed the discussion to flow. Thank you for going there and interviewing them.
So thankful for this interview! Great work Sean!
My estimation of Sean has increased immensely.
Same. First introduction was through the Lig interview. Been listening to Wilson for years. Sean showed his skill as an interviewer.
Great great discussion. Much respect for being willing to do what Christians ought in resolving differences.
A breath of fresh Air! That’s how it’s done! Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!
Great talk. It would be great if we can stop fighting among brothers. We have a war to fight and I hear there are some gates that need to be torn down. We need all hands on deck for that task.
Excellent Sean, thank you for this! Although I have differences with Doug, Like Piper said, It does not make him a heretic and most will not take the time to listen to him. Glad I met you at the conference.
Sean, for what it’s worth (a fellow brother in yt comments section) since I commented on your video with Ligon (my comment was a call to repent of the slander) I want to follow up with my commendation of your actions. What the christian in the pew is looking for is actions consistent with repentance and as Doug and Joe acknowledged you have done so well. Thank you for doing this and demonstrating your trustworthiness as a leader. You have gained respect from myself and I assume by the rest of the comments, many other brothers and sisters.
Thank you for doing this. Huge blessing
Thank you for having him on.
This was really good. Thanks for making it happen.
Love this kind of stuff. Good talk.
As someone firmly in the Moscow mood camp (New St. Andrews grad, CREC church member), I too understood Lig not to be leveling pointed accusations at Doug & co., but at certain online Moscow mood adjacent bros. Glad to see that point brought up and discussed.
Thanks for this, all!
This was beautifully done, gentlemen.
I really appreciate you having this conversation, Sean.
Thanks for showing courage in doing this Sean
This was extremely helpful...
Gold. Thanks for this.
Very impressed and a well done to you, Sean!!! Excellent character 🏆
Commenting for the algorithm. Came for Doug and Joe, will be back for Sean. Thanks.
Super grateful for you being willing to discuss these issues and ask honest questions of real disagreement. This clarity is a help to the Body of Christ!
Great interview!
Sean-Thanks for doing the interview. It was helpful and edifying.
Massive respect to you Sean for hosting Doug and clearing the air! You’ve got a new subscriber
This was a Huge move by Sean. Thanks for meeting up with the moscow crew.
Thanks Pastor. Well done!
Well done sir. Well done.
Major respect for following Leviticus 19:17-18. That’s how we mature into Christ’s likeness.
I hadn’t heard of this gentleman before but I’m glad he handled this as he did. Well done.
Way to go Sean!! Been listening to you for a while (D&C), and I pray that the Lord uses you greatly for His name's sake!
This was such a refreshing conversation to watch. I hope there will be much more like this that brings together different constituencies in conservative evangelicalism. Thank you brother Sean!
12:50 awesome! If this was your Goal, Doug, I am a success! Thank you, brother.
This is a model for how brothers should seek clarity and have conversation. Great job Pr. Sean.
I really do appreciate that engagement. A hardy Amen to the unity of the brotherhood and rigorous discourse that makes us nervous and rethink our thoughts.
I’m super encouraged by Sean Demars’s willingness to have this conversation. Thanks for doing this!!! To be honest, I wasn’t familiar with him before the interview they reference.
Haven’t finished the whole episode but I was blessed by this conversation so far.
Sean, thank you for this brother. It is wonderful to see some basic obedience to God's word with regards to engagement and charity amongst the brethren. Thank you for going to the source and not relying on secondary sources.
I was quite edified by this discussion.
Well done Sean. I respect your integrity. 👍
This was excellent
I have a lot of respect for this interviewer. Not familiar with him but he's got some wisdom and guts!
Let's nuance the word nuance for the sake of nuance.
As a Pentecostal, I very much appreciate this conversation. 🌳🪓
Well done.
Great interview- thank you! Well done. Now if others like Lig Duncan and KDY would follow suit.
Pastor Sean, musch respect to you for willing to have this conversation with Moscow! Thank you for showing and Biblical example of how brothers should resolve their differences!
Grace and peace
Thanks for doing this interview, Shaun! Great respect for you. There were moments when the interview sounded a bit like a struggle session. I would not be surprised to learn that Ligon Duncan got a heads up about this interview and suggested that if certain concessions were extracted in the interview that there would be some effort to begin contact with Moscow. But if those concessions were not made by Wilson, Duncan could cite the interview as further proof of Moscow’s error. That’s just a working theory on my end.
I can assure you that Ligon did not get any "heads up" about the interview. Grace and Peace.
Awesome
So thankful for this Sean Demars! Hats off to you for taking the invite and for going to Moscow! I’m with Rigney on the nuance though. Maybe an easy name change of “Rid the room of Nuance”. Nuance walks in and clarity leaves. AD said to give some respect and encouragement! Hats off to you on a job well done!
Very good, glad this happened, though I believe the TGC cohort has much more to defend and answer for than anything in Moscow. I’d give my arm to see Ligon and Kevin on the hot seat for two hours, but our tendency is to grill to the right, and nuance to the left. Nevertheless, thank you Sean.
I would say the seat was only tepid at best.
💯
I really did appreciate Doug and Joe and this was great.
In regards to the mockery though, we’re told not to call people idiots or fools.
The mockery goes all the way along to anyone who isn’t post mill or preterist. It’s not that the brother is in sin but the rebuke is that their theology is wrong.
The constant refrain from Paul is that we do it all in love.
I don’t agree with Joe here and think it’s just become an excuse to be rude at people you don’t know
Kudos for doing this. PS, I also wondered if he came up with the clown analogy on the spot. Lord bless, brother
This is the bomb!
Even watching this: great job Sean. Glad you were willing to sit down and have a real conversation.
Secondly, the more I listened, the more frustrated with Ligon I found myself becoming.
I came looking and found that they already uploaded 😂
One of the factors that should be considered, IMO, in this matter of "death by a thousand cuts" is VOLUME. If the things one says that are found offensive or questionable are one in a thousand, and you write a thousand words, that's one thing. Write ten thousand words and that's now ten things.
Whether or not the offensive or questionable things are legitimate, sinful, whatever -- that's a whole other question. But the reality is there's going to be more OF them the more someone outputs overall.
I appreciate Sean with his high T, straightness, and the balls to actually talk to Doug. Great job!
Did you attend the Stronger Men conference?
@@RecalledtoLife help me out, I believe the joke has gone over my head.
@@Nuclear_Option_10
Some of the mud slung at Sean after the Ligon interview were, “Low T” “castrated” and “gay”
Edit: he said this during the interview
@@UnlimitedMercy yeah, that's why I said this comment haha... Gotta balance out the bad
Chad move Sean! This was great!
Where do I find Sean’s video on Critical Pedagogy?
At the 1:40-ish point, regarding the ball being in play, I think there's a Matthew 18 sort of principle at play here. You don't get to publicly declare that your brother has offended you, and then refuse to face your brother so there's an opportunity to clear things up/make things right. There are situations in which we can just choose to not be part of a particular mess, but if we've already taken up the offense, it's SINFUL to refuse to engage in the necessary means of resolution.
I appreciate you taking this up 👍 I hope you’re able to do it again but having done your homework a little better (i.e., FV history, Russ More comment) R.C. Sproul said they are outside the Gospel and was adamant. You should know why he was.
Yes, just accepting Wilson's cursory explanation of FV was very disappointing.
@@RecalledtoLifewell, it was a better interview than taking EVERYTHING liegon said at face value. He pushed back tons on doug, which is what he should do if he really thinks wrong
This is dope
Bro what area of the country are you in? Would love to have you on the show.
Sean pastors a church in Decatur, Al - he’s a dear friend & his wonderful wife & daughters are a delightful counterpoint to Sean’s bold defense of the Gospel. Invite him on & get him to bring Amber along & ask how/when they met.
@@glennfincher2574 thanks for letting us know! We’re planning a Nashville/Atlanta trip soon. Will have to try to loop Sean into the trip.
i listened to the whole podcast. can someone briefly explain to me what the moscow mood is?
18:38 I think John 2:24 pretty clearly lays out that Christ doesn’t really care if you are in the crowd following him around. He only has an ‘objective connection’ to those that are actually his.
Finally, Doug is in the 'room' where the slander was fired from. Watching here instead of watching via Canon Press 😅.
Such a brave man, Sean.🫡
@@ArugaPH What makes doing this interview "brave"?
And yet not one fetal position to be found.
@RecalledtoLife he's willing to be in a fetal position 😅. We almost see that in the slander part.
@@ArugaPH Sean is in a fetal position? How so?
Those that love nuance are often condemned by the obvious
Sean, you should have Cody Libolt for the podcast, to talk about CN, theonomy, politics, etc.
The sign and the thing signified in baptism and communion are different.
Can someone tell me what is Moscow Mood? Explain it to someone who is a new believer?
1:51:18 Camera Error
It’s kind of bizarre that you didn’t know they were at least talking about Doug Wilson and when Lig was talking about the abolitionist obviously it was Apologia as well as the T. Russel Hunter crew
Yeah, i dont buy that either
Yep, you're not even reading the story if you didn't know who ligon was referring to.
Is Doug an abolitionist? I thought he said he was a "smashmouth incrementalist."
@@RecalledtoLife yes Doug is a “smash mouth incrementalist” I’m just saying that thinking Lig wasn’t talking about Doug when he was is like saying Lig wasn’t talking about those other guys when he later talked about abolitionist
At the end of the Ligon Duncan Controvery section (56:34) Sean says that he didn't think Ligon was talking about the Moscow people specifically until all of the internet backlash, and that may be true. But the fact that so many people jumped to that conclusion on their own indicates that it was much clearer to the audience than it might have been to him. It seemed pretty clear to most listeners that Ligon was at the very least connecting the Moscow Mood with the criticisms he was leveling.
Doug, during the section regarding Mockery towards other believers (1:09:00), really didn't defend himself well. Doug regularly mocks specific individuals (who deserved to be mocked, like Moore, David French, etc.), but for him to act like he doesn't mock individuals with regularity during his videos was a miss. I would have preferred he tried to make an argument that mocking individuals is warranted (see Jesus mocking Nicodemous in John 3) in certain situations rather than pass it off like he didn't do that.
Overall excellent job on everyone's part.
Regarding "Nuance", anyone watching understands what you want and how you want to reclaim the word. But....Sean, you have also to understand that language is not static and the words become colloquial: Definition #3 or #10 in the OED can be number one in certain influential circles.
Doug's analogy of the 13th clown is appropriate here: Most people who have a couple decades of experience in Evangelical talk are going to take "nuance" as an indicator for not answering a sraight forwad question...straight-forwardly.
50-60 years ago people used the term relativity to begin to dissent from the prevailing moral orthodoxy while still being respectable and conversational. We don't have relativity anymore because that dissent then is now the reigning orthodoxy. IOW in X more years those same people using "nuance" are going to give away the store..most of the time.
You may be the exception, but you are not helping the clarity of the conversation by standing athwart the colloquial use of "nuance" and yelling "stop".
Disclaimer...I'm a big fan of Doug Wilson... I think he is somewhat of a "national treasure" (maybe a Christian sort of Rush Limbaugh).
That said...I saw the clips from your Ligon Duncan podcast, and know you took some heat (ha, just from the clips I saw, I did get the impression that you and he were sort of on the same side)... regardless, I haven't even watched this yet (I'm at 1:50), but the fact that you came to "Moscow" and sat down with Doug Wilson (and Joe Rigney) really gives you a lot of respect in my eyes, sir.
Its over 2 hours... not sure if I'll make it through the whole thing.... but I'm going to give it a shot... "your favorite race" hahaha fantastic!!
finished the whole interview.... great job! ... you asked about many of the same concerns I had/have ... and as stated above I'm a big Doug Wilson fan....
I hope all yall will become good friends and continue keeping the lines of communication open!
Talk about *clarity* ... this has to be (one of?) *the* most helpful and frank and detailed communication of the things discussed that I have heard.
As I saw somebody else say... by contrast the "other side" doesn't seem nearly as forthright and/or "honest" as Doug Wilson and Joe Rigney seemed to be right there out in the light of day.
........... I plan to leave a similar comment over on Doug Wilson's copy of this.
Sean couldn’t handle Rigney flipping the question posing if “Gentle and Lowly” has been misapplied and abused - telling
Rigney was there to keep Doug on point. He kept stepping in to steer the interview. Hilarious.
Was Luther unable to shake off his captivity to the papacy on baptismal regeneration, or are Evangelicals unable to shake off their captivity to the way man's natural eye sees bread and wine and water that has been combined with God's Word?
I watched this interview on Canon, I commented that the comment section there was respectful and encouraging and I wondered if the comment section on the other side ( here) would be the same? Sadly it isn't.
I looked at the comments on the Canon CZcams page, I would not say all of them fit the description of respectful and encouraging. It’s the Internet, it allows the troglodytes to come out and be nameless faceless trolls.
Boy i can’t find the comments you’re referring to; no I’m not saying they’re every last one super nice, but overall there is NOT a difference in tone that i can discern
@@Flintfishingi see many “not nice” ones, which you don’t have to do to be truthful or loving. Many people who are being encouraging are completely missing what all is going on between these two interviews
This comment section is pretty much the same as Canon' Press.
Okay, I am white-pilled again…
Asking idahoans potato salad vs macaroni salad... 🤭🤣
Bonjour mon ami.