Quoted from Peter Comeau. "I thought would put my official reply into this thread because there’s a lot of misinformation out there and it is worrying owners who, otherwise, would probably be quite happy with their speakers. I don’t want to get into arguments with people who have strong opinions on this subject, but you all deserve to know the difference between fact and BS. So here goes … Resistors: as is typical in the hi-fi manufacturing industry, we use Cermet resistors. These are wirewound resistors encased in a ceramic housing. Generally they do their job very well and have minimal effect on dynamics. You can replace them with Mundorf Supreme and possibly get some benefit. I suspect that is probably the biggest audible difference in the HEADquarter Audio mod. Capacitors: the majority of caps in the standard crossover are polypropylene. There are some high value electrolytics but they are bypassed with PP caps to reduce any distortion. So is there any reason to replace them? You could replace the electrolytics with a load of PP types but you’ll have trouble fitting them on the PCB. I don’t really understand why HEADquarter Audio think that the really superb quality PP cap in the HF section can be improved by a Jantzen type? But I will get hold of some Jantzen caps and do some tests and report back on what I hear, probably after Christmas. Coils: we use silicon iron layered core inductors in the bass and midrange in order to keep DC resistance low. These types of cores have a good hysteresis loop and, in general, I prefer to keep DC resistance low especially for high value inductors in the bass. There would be an audible difference if you replace the midrange coil with an air core but make sure you keep the DC resistance low. Which means a big coil! So you need to Mount it off the PCB and keep it well away and at right angles to the other coils. What is often not appreciated about air core coils is that they are much more prone to electromagnetic interference than cored coils. So, if you’re going to use them, you need to space them well apart. Usually I use two PCBs if I’m going to do this. Terminals: all our terminals are plated copper. Why people want to replace terminals like these I don’t understand. There might be a benefit in using a low metal content terminal like the special ones from WBT. Keeping the metal content low is supposed to reduce eddy current effects. But then you have all the wires and coils inside the speaker, which also contribute these effects, so what are you going to do? Cables: we use good quality connecting cables internally. Some people like exotic cables. You could play around here but IMO the benefits, if any, are minimal. But maybe worth it to some people. Solder connections to drive units: The reason we use push on connectors is to enable easy servicing. I have seen lots of drive units ruined by overheating the terminals when poorly soldered by hasty service mechanics. Years ago I held a blind listening test on soldered vs push on terminals. The results were inconclusive. Here’s why I think that is … We crimp push on terminals onto the cables using high pressure machines. This makes an excellent metal to metal, air free joint. The push on terminals then slide tightly onto the drive unit terminal blades. This wiping action again makes a good metal to metal contact and our terminals are the locking type which means that contact stays stable. With soldered joints the current passes from the cable through solder to the blade. Most solder is an amalgam of different metals which lower its melting point, has a chemical action on the metal to wet it, and is oxidised when it melts and cools. If you’re going to use solder make sure it has a high percentage of silver and solder at the manufacturer’s recommended temperature. Frequency response: Frequency response in axis at 1m doesn’t give you any clue as to how a speaker sounds. The ear/brain system is much more critical of temporal performance and whether the harmonic structure of an impulse is correct/realistic than it is of 3dB changes in frequency level. Also, how you make these measurements is critical. Making a gated response in-room, like GR Research, is prone to huge errors. Compare its results to the Stereophile and Erin’s Audio Corner reviews. Erin and Stereophile accord to the measurements I make as a designer. Nuff said."
What Peter Comeau calls good, we call budget level cheesy parts. Much of what he just stated is total BS. The fact is these were built to a price point and the upgrade offers a considerable performance upgrade for those interested and many have ordered this upgrade. The feedback we get on the upgrade form the customer is overwhelming positive. So the performance speaks for itself.
The Lintons have become my personal end-game speakers as I near retirement. I absolutely love them. I have paired them with dual SVS SB3000 subwoofers .... and they put the artists in my room, pure and simple.
@@StrangerInParadise58 Until you hear speakers that truly don't need correcting. It's like driving a VW bug, not knowing about Lexus. The bug seems fine. Then one day you drive a Lexus. Glad you love em.
@@daleboylen6427 Thanks for your perspective. I completely understand it, but I’ve come to adopt and appreciate a different perspective. Fortunately, I have heard & owned the kind of speakers of which you speak. But I prefer the Lintons. One of the cardinal realities of audio and human hearing is the relative nature of personal audio preferences and nirvana. When people forget or overlook this reality, they often get befuddled by what puts a smile on another person’s face. But this is their problem, not that of the person with the smile. In other words, some people prefer a Volkswagen Bug over a Lexus any day. 😊 I am sure you are more than aware of this reality, but it plays central to these types of discussions and is often overlooked or forgotten. This is true not just in the realm of audio, but in almost every other area of life as well. Just keeping it real. Thanks again - I appreciate it.
Very harsh words. In spring 2021, I had the opportunity to listen to these speakers in a special listening room and with many other speakers in a any price range. I loved them right away, they sound very good, especially bass. The most expensive speakers we listened to was 80 000€, but they were weak for me, too many high frequencies and less bass. I thinks this mode makes them like this 80000€ again, too much highs and low bass. There were 3 more audio files in the room, two of them didn't like Wharfedal as much as I did, but the third also liked it very much. I think these speakers are such that they like it very much or not at all. After listening to them, I went and bought these speakers and I am still very satisfied today.
@@borisbulldog If i have 80k€ free money, then Yes, i think, i wouldnt buy those speakers. But I wouldnt buy speakers I heard there, maybe i find something better for this money.
The graphs will show how accurate a speaker is and not how it sounds. However, the measured responses will reveal problems like out of phase drivers, ringing, break up, stored energy, and response imbalances. And those issues are audible.
@@dannyrichie9743 if all of these “issues” are audible, then how come these speakers sound so good (as evidenced by the reviews and the hundreds of comments listed here)?
Okay so Erin's Audio Corner reviewed these he does the most detailed measurements of anyone. His measurements don't show any of the issues yours did and neither did Stereophiles? Subjectively and objectively these speakers do great with reviewers and customers? But somehow with you these speakers are measuring so bad that's they need upgrades that cost 50% of the total original cost of the speakers? Something doesn't feel right here 🤔
Danny probably measure them without the grills. Grills have wave guide so they are essential for good response. Not trying to defend him. Just my thought. Erin is the way to go for sure.
So I think Danny measures between the tweeter and the mid-range, and Erin measures at tweeter level, hence different results. Erin's -10º vertical is a better match to Danny's on-axis. Which is correct? I guess it depends on the height of your stands and the listening position. Also, GR-Research expensive replacement parts are not just about improving the frequency response. There are other elements to sound quality that do not show up in graphs.
His modus operandi is to sell his oils..... haven’t watched too many of his videos(3-4), just comes across to me as someone dodgy and dishonest. (No evidence, just gut feelings from observing his mannerisms etc.... and I could be wrong).
Had my Linton for about 6-8 months now. To me music sounds like music. I’ve tried other speaker that people rave about and music sounds like an iPhone playing through a tin can (I’m all for clarity but people are getting insane gushing over overly bright bookshelf speakers with no bass at all). If you want a nice kinda warm, kind of smooth sound with any genre for these. Vocals and drums sound incredible. Soundstage is really easy to find and enjoy, separation of instruments is clear. I listen to them for around 10 hours a day and never feel fatigued from them. Treble is clear, midrange is incredible and clear and the bass is realistic and smooth. They also look freaking amazing. But each to their own. I listen to just about every genre from Americana to Techno and everything sounds great and inviting.
Measurements are not music. If it SOUNDS good, it IS good. Measurements be damned. The reason "reviewers love these" is that they SOUND good. I remember going round and round once with a senior member at ASR about the Reisong A10 amp. Six WPC point to point wired tube amp for under $500.00, and they sound great, especially when paired with speakers that are a bit bright. He could not accept that a component that measured badly could POSSIBLY sound good. His loss. Since then, I've always taken measurements with a grain of salt.
People who love the Wharfedale sound, will like the Lintons. I agree, the company could have invested a little more on the crossover components and drivers, and I believe that the more improved Lintons can sell well even at $2500. But even without the upgrades, I believe the Lintons as they are now, will attract a lot of audiophiles like me. I started many years ago with my first Wharfedales, the Diamond 5 and moved on to other Diamonds powered now by a tube integrated amplifier with EL 34's. Warm, smooth and beautiful music. I visited a friend's home the other night to listen to his $278,000 Focal speakers in his listening room, and a pair of $20,000. M40 Harbeths in his living room. I liked the Harbeths and found the Focals overwhelming even threatening but still impressive. Happy to get back home and listen comfortably to my stereo system which I bought brand new 8 years ago for around $1,400. Marantz cd, Cayin EL34 integrated tube amp, Diamond 10.4 floorstanders in my bedroom. Sublime contentment.
Exactly. Peter Corneau sad in the interview himself, that the final crossover design was version 11. He was chasing particular warm, classic tonality and wasn't content until he reached it. This is also one of the reasons the rest of my gear (multiple amps and CD players) all almost predominantly Yamaha, which is another hifi company that follows that specific idiom - 'sound first, technology second'.
Initial measurements graph is the one most would prefer as sounds more pleasing to majority of music lovers and is designed as such with purpose. It should sound warm and not detailed as with new parts. Sound signature is suppose to recreate vintage sound that goes along with the looks. Not all speakers are to be upgraded!
$1,400 with the amazing stands. The cabinet is three layers, MDO and chip board + the Wood veneer is beautiful. Set-up: the tweeters go to the insde, so there is a definite R/L speaker. I would love to have a pair. Love my Wharffie Evo 4.3 and 4.2. Hands off my Wharffie's geek!
Well if the cabinet is MDO, we're sorry about this, there must have been a mistake in our production chain. One can always try to sell them back arguing it's real walnut, so you can quaduple the price. And that would be a nice deal.
Well Viv...they are real oak veneer but rather than the solid MDO of other manufacturers the walls are three layers with chip board at the inside layer, with purpose. This is the only neg review about these speakers. Excellent for the price.n before I'd f around adding $800 worth of aftermarket to these I'd just purchase the Wharfedale Evo 4.4, no brainer.
@@hmrowland6114 yeah this guys entire business is built around the typical audiophile FOMO. Once you learn to stop measuring and just start listening your life as an audiophile improves vastly. You invest more time enjoying music and way less obsessing about your next incremental tweak.
I have finally finished installing the Danny designed upgrades to one of my two Lintons. I took the opportunity to A/B listen test the unmodified and Danny upgraded version in mono. Okay - so they are certainly not the same speakers. To be clear, the originals did not have the sound signature I enjoy (too laid back, midrange clarity was less than what I like, etc), thus why I went the upgrade path. The Danny designed version sounds much more upfront (not in your face) and the midrange clarity is astounding and the bass remains tight with (maybe) more extension. To my ears, the changes made by Danny in the frequency response are responsible for many of the positive (to me) changes. However, this upgrade has convinced me of the value of the parts quality! Listening over and over again to the same song on both speakers (alternating) was enough to 'sell' me. The major differences were in the treble and midrange - listening to Lumineers "Dead Sea", I could hear the separation of instruments, voices, and notes on individual instruments. Further, the lead singers voice can sometimes be a bit fatiguing over the unmodified Lintons, but this was gone with the modified one. Technical details - I used all the supplied upgrade parts except the tube connectors and no rez. I did not use the tube connectors because I did not wish to modify the cabinet. I did not use no Rez b/c the box is separated by the midrange tube (cabinet within cabinet) and the new crossover parts take up a lot of space, so I felt there was insufficient space left. So, instead I used roof membrane (rubberized asphalt adhesive backed by layer of high density cross laminated polyethylene) throughout the cabinet and then installed the crossover components on top. Other equipment: Benchmark pre-amp and dac, Schitt Aegir mono amp.
@@willbrown8433 It is pricey, but it took the speakers from not my taste to ones that I thoroughly enjoy. If I had not updated them, they would be back in a box or I would have sold them. There isn't really any comparison between the unmodified (fine) and the modified (really good). I have written more about this on the one of the other audio forms. Summary - for me it was very much worth it. The midrange is now incredible clear and articulate; i can hear details that were not present before. Hope that helps.
Awesome post. Finally someone speaking the truth. Lintons are horrible for treble and midrange, bass is awesome. It's unfortunate because they just sound dull, lack clarity and vocals are just bad. I'm considering spending money on upgrades, or just selling them. You play Hans Zimmer Curse of Black Pearl or Medley and you realize you miss 1/3 of the instruments. Sad experience.
Thanks for the detailed video. Would the no-rez alone make an improvement to these speakers? I feel there is sometimes too much bass or colouration as you mention. What could I expect from installing no-rez and would one sheet make an improvement in the most important cabinet areas or would two sheets definitely be required?
You reviewed the Wharfdale Linton and you found it had a "choppy" frequency response, and you revealed a curve you captured with your equipment of the Linton on loan to your shop that was in fact choppy, as you say. Stereophile magazine has reviewed a Wharfdale Linton pair that were decidedly not choppy, and the graph from their equipment demonstrated a frequency response free from choppiness. Why would Stereophile hide the choppiness? They don't sell expensive upgrades to Wharfdale Lintons and many other commercial products as you do. They don't stand to gain from frequency response that does not in fact exist. Then you accused Wharfdale of using "cheesy" parts in their crossovers. You discussed the various kinds of parts you prefer to see in such crossovers, but you neglected to discuss the vast increase in price. I'm quite sure that the price of the Wharfdale Lintons was a major factor in their popularity. The same purchaser probably wouldn't buy the Lintons at the price you would make them with your "non-cheesy" parts. An example of a "cheesy" part as described by you is a 4.7 microfarad non-polarized electrolytic capacitor that can be purchased from a parts supplier for sixty-seven cents. That is the kind of part most often used by most speaker manufacturers. An example of the kind of part you would rather use is a film capacitor, and most speaker builders would not use such a part in that location. Why? A 4.7 microfarad film capacitor will cost you eighty-six dollars from the same parts supplier. Imagine using six or eight such capacitors. That is a fantastic price increase that does not make a change in sound quality that most people can hear. You would be hard-pressed to demonstrate the increase in sound quality between the "cheesy" capacitor and the eighty-six dollar capacitor. You'd be hard-pressed to measure the difference between the two parts. I can imagine why you might neglect to mention this price difference. In fact the sixty-seven cent part is not cheesy at all. You would be hard-pressed to hear the difference, and your customer would probably choose the "cheesy" part if he was informed about the price difference.
Also, there is no single response graph that encapsulates what the speaker will end up sounding like. Speakers have different curves at every angle and since we are going to hear multiple arrivals from the listening position (unless we listen in an anechoic chamber) manufacturers often have to sacrifice a perfectly flat on-axis response to achieve a flatter room response. This also means not all rooms are suitable for a given speaker. Peter Comeau is a very experienced engineer and I have a hard time believing these speakers did not meet his design criteria.
First of all International Audio Group owns Wharfedale, Quad, Mission, Luxman, Castle Acoustics, and Tag McLaren. How much advertising, kickbacks and industry junkets do you think those brands provide stereophile and their reps? Secondly, the parts these mid-fi Lintons are made with are on par with $600 polks. Ok sure that's common, but they're just low grade parts no matter how you rationalize it. Now I'm not saying an upgrade makes sense here. I mean why spend that money on making a midfi speaker a bit better when you could just buy better speakers? But you barging in here with your bad logic and unfounded assertions sounds like you have an agenda.
I'm sorry but that's not true, I've done a few blind tests to compare the caps. I even asked people who have nothing with audio. They all picked the expensive caps out... I tried to fool them and they still picked them out. It was quite a bummer for me cos from that point I needed to spent more money for my self build, and every single time when I design a crossover it's quite confrontating. ( my apologies for the bad grammar, I'm dutch🙈)
They're supposed to have that warmed up bass region, makes them sound rich and warm at low to medium volume levels. I wonder how incredible you could have made it with some tweaks that left the woofer alone.
Curious how the tweeters hold up to most of your mods that pull the crossover down to around 1500hz. At 1W I'm sure they work fine, but what happens when we "get after it" as you eluded to? Most tweeters have almost no usable Xmax. Every time I've simulated a tweeter crossover that low with real world usable xmax included in the simulation things go pear shaped pretty quickly if we throw any power at it.
I've had mine for a month now running a LS3 pre and B&K mono amps and I get a great soundstage on these in my room and love the sound. If the upgrade improves the sound that would be even more amazing.
talking about narrow baffle, that is why i designed my speaker with 106mm baffle width, then a 45 degree angle backward for 40mm. as narrow as i could get the woofers to fit.
I have them hooked up to my Luxman el84 amp, absolute heaven (25m2 room). Are there better? Certainly. At this price though, they are just fantastic (classical and jazz mostly)
I love my Lintons and I have no problem with them designing to a price point. It is to be expected. I would much rather them leave room for improvement in the crossover than anywhere else. Besides, for the price, this speaker has proven to be a winner by many peoples ears. Ive planned to replace a few parts in the crossover but im a tad hesitant to change the design completely. I'll be looking forward to know how people respond to Danny's re-design.
If you have been in a mastering studio, you know that you absolutely don't want that "measurement perfection" in your leaving room ;) . The room correction is the first thing to do before any cross over tweeking or binding post replacement because frequency ring and bad reverberation is way more annoying than " cheesy parts " if you own those wonderful speakers.
Apart from the drivers, isn't the crossover the next most important component? I think the speaker manufacturers spend more effort / money on the cabinets than the crossovers, but the cabinets have less of and effect on the sound quality than the crossover. Surely a well braced plain MDF box is all you need but most people want their speakers to look good. This is why the DIY route gives you far more bang for your buck. Spend 90% on quality components and make the box as fancy as you want. You can start with a plain box and upgrade to some fancy veneer later on when funds allow.
@@miheadhurts Yes the crossover is important but despite the 'cheesy' parts inside, I still have respect for the product Wharfedale made. Besides, the narrative I've heard before Danny's video is that this speaker's performance punches above it's price point. I've seen nothing but good reviews. There are plenty of speakers with 'cheesy' parts that sound fantastic. If you want more then you will spend more.
@@user-bj9ln4em6n no doubt they sound great but the parts might cost Wharfedale $300-$400. If you spend the same amount on the XLS Encore then you are likely to have a better speaker in the Encore. The Hi Fi manufacturers cannot compete with the the GR Research business model. Wharfedale get the speaker made in China, pay a decent amount for the packaging, ship to the US, pay import duty, send to distributors, send to the store and add tax then sell to the consumer. DIY isn't for everyone, but for those who are handy, it's the best way to build an awesome speaker for the least amount of cash. I'm weighing up with going with the pimped out Encores or Lii Audio Betsy open baffles. The Encores would suit my room better.
I am using a MiniDSP in conjunction with the Wharfedale Linton. I believe this is the best way to EQ the speakers to your meet your listening preference. Much cheaper without opening up the speakers. The main disadvantage is I could never achieve the increased sensitivity compare to the crossover upgrade. Then again, at the original 88 to 89 sensitivity, this is already quite good to begin with.
Sir, I'm an old lover of Hi Fidelity from back in the 70's.. I am now diving back into HiFi .. I never was able to own any HiFi components of real value before, so I'm starting from scratch. so after listing and watching your videos and learning about the true engineering, it makes me want to take apart the components I already have just to see what's inside. I enjoy your videos it helps me to carefully select my future purchases... I'm at a budget level of $2k maybe $3k for any speakers or amps. Thanks for your educational videos it's helping me tremendously!
I have the Lintons. We replaced a cap and a condenser I think for the high frequencies. That really helped the high frequency smooth out. I'm wondering about your setup. How much work is it to put the new crossover in? Thank you .
Nice results. Have a pair of the Wharfedale Denton 80th. Same sound signature, boosted bass and recessed highs. The highs also sound grainy at times. Overall like the speakers just wish they were more balanced and refined. Any plans to analyze the Dentons or the Triangle BR03?
The Lintons are supposed to be listened with the grilles on. I preferred the Sonus Faber Lumina III to the Lintons, but the Lintons are awesome speakers.
How could a speaker get, what seems to be, unanimous rave reviews across the board and have such a choppy response? Does that mean frequency response is somehow irrelevant? If there are negative--even mildly negative-- reviews out there, I haven't seen them. One of the most jaw dropping statements made about this speaker came from Erin's Audio Corner in his recently released video "My Top Five Speakers at ANY COST". He picked the Lintons in this group! -- And he owns a Klippel Near Field Acoustic Scanning System--as far as I know, the most powerful (and expensive) speaker measurement system on the planet. I can understand that these products use cheaper parts to fit into a certain price category, but I can't understand why these large companies, with very large budgets to hire top design engineers, would intentionally put out a poorly designed system. Where am I figuring wrong?
Some of those reviewers are really using budget level or mid fi level systems in rooms that are not well treated or set up well. So the bar isn't set very high.
What puzzles me is the supposed reverence to the original Linton and Denton. I remember the 70s incarnations of these were cheap and not very good sounding speakers. Dull and boxy. They went through a number of iterations but none I recall were reviewed that well. The name certainly had a long production run though.
Remember those giant Fisher stereo systems? I think you could get them at places like Sear's or JC Penney's. The speakers were probably close to 5 feet tall, & had 15" woofers.
I have a pair of Mirage here that are four feet tall and sound very good. They are music they have a driver on both sides..bi polar I think it's called.
My one critique: Danny assumes we all want flat frequency response or close to it. That's so misguided. Omg, speaker designers voice speakers how they want to for a reason. Some speakers are going for prominent vocals. Some are going for added bass. Some are going for low listening fatigue, etc. Some try to balance all three. Danny, please consider making crossover improvements which don't target frequency response too much. Please target better phase integration, directivity improvements, and distortion improvements/decay results. Consider not fussing about boosted areas and specific dips. They're often intended. Hint: most people enjoy more bass, better speech clarity (boosting a few regions humans don't hear well) and a way of reducing listening fatigue (cutting frequencies which resonate in the human ear canal). The revised ANSI Fletcher Munson curves provide the clues.
i agree...all videos are about make them ( speakers) "flat"., almost stripping "personality" from the product to achieve uniformity...I thought he (Danny) needs to work for the government...impose the control over crowds- don't be too loud, don't be too quiet, don't look like that, etc.
A more accurate frequency response is minor compared to what I focus on. Most of the corrections or real improvements that I make can be seen in a the spectral decay. That is where the most audible problems and real distortions can be seen. I also look at overall responses in the vertical and horizontal off axis. Strong improvements are also made from the quality of parts used along with removing poor connections and insertion losses of cheesy binding posts and wire. Further improvements are made by controlling cabinet wall resonances. These are more comprehensive and complete upgrades.
@@oleplanthafer7034 how was it a mic drop? Hint: it wasn't. He thinks he doesn't change the frequency response all that much, while I think he tends to flatten things out a bit too much while not focusing on other criteria I find more important. It is true that he often smooths the impedance results which does make a speaker easier to drive. Our disagreement is a matter of scale. It's nice to hear that the frequency response in his mind isn't always the most important improvement he makes. Phase, distortion, decay, and impedance are in my mind a better area to focus on than using most of the time on these upgrade videos talking about frequency response.
So if you change the iron core inductors would you change the sound? Maybe those inductors help make the sounds that many people that have them like them for.
OK, so I don't own these, but for some reason I want to defend them.. I would like speakers with somewhat flat response, because that's a good starting point, and I have a treated room that I will treat more, and I use my speakers to mix records. So, that's one use case. Another, more typical use case is that you buy speakers and put them in your untreated living room and those speakers will either compliment the room acoustics or not. Maybe your room is large and light on bass - these might sound full where other speakers might sound thin. On the other hand, maybe your room has thick carpets so it's boxy and dark - you might want a speaker that measures bright and has a big dip at 800 hz. Beyond that, there is taste. So if you own these, and like them, it's very possible that things lined up for you. I say all of this because I have speakers that measure very flat in my mix room that are awesome for that, and I also have vintage speakers in my living room that I know there is no way they measure anywhere near flat, and they kick butt in that room by looking and sounding fun!
Same here! But if I was forced to choose between my Focal (Twin be) and the Linton, I'll choose the Linton :). The imaging is far better on the focal however...
Couldn’t agree more. Frequency response and other characteristics of speakers are like how you prefer your food to be seasoned. Some like some spice, others like some zest. Heck some people even enjoy pineapple on their pizza. The obsession with perfectly flat frequency response - not sure I get it.
Well, to a certain point, of course, but isn't it why EQ was put in use to begin with. -To EQUALize -To flatten the response? New speakers might not even have crossovers anymore, now more and more come with in-built amps with DSP. That's progress and I very much look forward to mass-production from more manufacturers.
@@EJK1965 Pineapple, which is sweet, paired with a salty meat, such as ham or Canadian bacon, paired with a spicy sauce, maybe with sun-ripened tomatoes, can balance the variety of flavors very nicely. Mixing sweet with spicy is a cliché in Sichuan cuisine. Pineapple isn't one of my favorite pizza toppings, but, if there's a fresh pineapple and Canadian bacon pizza on a buffet, I'll grab a slice or two.
I love this style of speaker. I've repaired and upgraded many pairs of Ditton 44s and just love that 70s style. Yes they have issues with having such a big front baffle and that trim round the face doesn't help but they are beautiful. Like you Danny I do wish manufacturers would put better parts in their crossovers.
Do you think I can replace tweeter with something like sb acoustic beryllium tweeter without changing crossover? Or this will need redesigning crossover to new values? Thanks
Interesting as always; especially the series/parallel part. One thing I don’t understand: what is a “fast” woofer and why would they need to be smaller. Don’t those little “fast” woofers have to move like crazy in those small ported boxes after they’re bsc’ed to produce LF?
The smaller the woofer, the less mass the cone has. The less mass it has, the faster the cone can move. The faster the cone can move, the greater the potential to resolve fine detail. For 2.1 music-only applications, an 8" subwoofer is usually better than a 10" or 12". Home theater is a different ballgame. In home theater, it's all about moving air, and picking up fine detail in an explosion is generally not an issue.
There are 2.2ohm resistor located in right before the tweeter. I want to get it out for the tweeter brighter more. Did you do this before sir? Any comment for me please ?
I don't know... I own these as well, I love the warmth and tonality of these, highs could be a little cleaner and center imaging could be more spot on, but what I found after testing with various equipment and placement they do have a sound that keeps you engaged. "Even better with the right equipment" they are smooth and easy on the ears. I would be tempted to hear the difference however if you, yourself didn't or couldn't do a A/B comparison before and after the changes I would be skeptical to purchase at $731 without real world listening. I would be afraid it would change the tonality that makes these so good. I get the fact that these use cheap parts on the crossover but that has everything to do with price/performance and target audience they were going for. Were not talking Wilson Audio, Joseph Audio here with there spare no expense crossover/cabinet designs. The designer himself "Peter Comeau" spends hours/months of listening and tweaking before releasing his designs which the Linton's are one of those designs. You managed to do it in what 2 -3 weeks with no listening, based on graphs? I'm not trying to bash you and I am certainly not questioning your technical ability because you do excellent work but you should offer a trial or partial money back for at least the crossover it's self if the sound isn't up to par... Or give a few out to Linton owners as a real world test! Watch Peter the Linton's designer here - czcams.com/video/F1WYNCZqOKY/video.html
The upgrade isn't going to loose or give up anything that they had. It is going to take every aspect to another level (or two or three levels). And I have spent a carriers worth of time comparing the sonic signature of these parts. So I know exactly what the before and after effects are going to be. I have never had anyone say the smearing of those cheesy parts sure sounded better than the much cleaner sound of the higher quality parts.
Hi Danny, I'm a fan and long time watcher myself. I've often wondered if you actually listen to the speakers in stereo with proper placement before redesigning crossovers? Most of the time I get the impression you only have one speaker on hand and go purely off of measurements. These Lintons, for example, are voiced to sit on the included stands. Did you have the stands to listen to them?
@@deeplyclosetedindividual Listening to a poorly designed speaker or a speaker full of budget level parts is not useful in correcting what is wrong with them. I can hear the problems and quickly note the sound of a speaker playing through a wet blanket, but in the end I need to take the measurements to see the issues and get an idea of what will be needed to fix them. The upgrade in parts quality has more to do with how they sound in this case. The redesign just slightly rebalanced them to a more accurate level. No Rez takes care of the cabinet resonance issues of a large unbraced box, and new wiring and tube connectors improve clarity as well.
I'm exactly in the same position! There is something « magic » about those speakers in my point of view. A reviewer said: With those, you focus on the music performance not the sound of the speaker or technicality. And indeed they are more forgiving for poor or old recording but when you listen to something really well recorded, they shine...
@@deeplyclosetedindividual Fried, if you've watched enough of Danny's videos you'll find that he's a knowledgeable designer with a one track mind. There can only be one way for speakers to measure. One quality level for crossover parts, well, unless those parts are in his base level crossovers then they're okay. He loves to use the term "fix" when nothing is actually broken. It's merely that a speaker doesn't measure the way he wants it to measure. If someone thinks they like the same sort of sound Danny likes then they should just buy his kits rather than buying a speaker and sending it in to him in order to try and change it into something they like. The Lintons do have a smoky, bass heavy sound and a lot of people like that. Different strokes for different folks except in GR land.
Nice upgrade to the design. I'm not sure I agree that all wide baffle speakers image poorly though compared to narrow baffle speakers. It depends on how well they are designed. Narrow baffles do inherently image better but you typically have the baffle step problems with the sharp dip in the bass response which is almost impossible to remove effectively with filters. Not so much of an issue with wide baffle speakers which have made a bit of a comeback recently.Take the JBL L100 Classic for example which images superbly well for a chunky speaker.
one of the best measuring speaker of all times, damn near perfect, if you touch them you should go straight to the seventh circle. stop being a snake oil schill.
Based on whose measurements? Show me an independent 3rd party measuring them, not Stereophile that reaps lots of ad revenue from IAG who owns many brands, including Wharfedale. I wish someone would send G-R a set of Evo 4.4 speakers for testing and any "upgrades" to see how they compare to the Lintons.
You mentioned adding a sub after your upgrade. Does the new network change the bass performance, low frequency roll off? I ask because I am currently running these in a work shop type garage area off a Naim XS, and has just the right amount of low end as is.
@@sergeysmelnik I am not at all interested in what is going on at Audio Theory Review. Those are not industry professionals. Companies are not coming to them for driver design work, crossover design work, product line designs etc. They've won no industry awards. Am not interested in the least, and I stand behind my measurements. They have been confirmed many times.
@@sergeysmelnik First of all, they are known as Audio Theory Review because the name fits. They do no (zero) science. They take measurements and then theorize what the audible result will be. They do no listening at all to confirm their theories. One of their guys built out one of our least expensive kits, no upgrades, just the base level model. They measured it and said it was great. Then Amir listen to one speaker. He liked it and gave it a recommendation. How was the imaging? How was the sound stage layering? He doesn't know. He listened to one speaker. That is a complete and total joke. Buying the most expensive measuring equipment doesn't make you an expert. If you don't know the audible differences of power cables, speaker cables, capacitors, wiring, connectors you are no expert. You are still at square one. And if you believe the rhetoric they spew over there then you are a fool. Repeating what you saw on the internet doesn't make you an expert either. If you want to really learn what is audible and what is not then come on over for a visit and class will begin.
That sounds like it would be a good listen. The retro looks are appealing. Maybe some felt or foam on the baffle would help. I get the feeling that Wharfedale wanted a slightly vintage sound, a nod to designs they had in the 1960s and 1970s, old Wharfedales seemed a bit warm, mid-forward and a bit soft in the treble. They would have used paper drivers and would probably have been designed around low wattage amplifiers. I guess these would still sound modern, more revealing and give reasonable bass at normal to low volumes. Modern recordings have almost too much treble so the down tilt would have been good at balancing the sound. I don’t know, I haven’t auditioned them. What did they sound like playing music? I am guessing they covered their tracks well by being easy to listen to. I would love to get a review of the standard vs the GR modified version. The new one must be transformed. Please let us know how they compare playing music in a review situation.
The NEW Wharfedale Dovedale speakers actually have TWO PC Boards isolated from each other for their crossover network. One for the bass and the other for the mid/treble! Look for some of the CZcams videos of Peter Comeau from Wharfedale talking about crossover designs. His knowledge of them FAR EXCEED's Dannys knowledge.
@@dannyrichie9743 Did you even bother to watch the video? I didn't think so. While I respect your knowledge and channel, what you say is not the LAST WORD in Speaker and crossover design!
@@dontcare563 Well, I know one thing for sure. Whoever is designing crossovers for Wharfedale certainly is not the guy to be praising. We just had the Wharfedale Denton in for upgrades. Man, that thing was a mess.
I love watching Danny's name & shame videos but it doesn't always have to be all or nothing either, recently bought a pair of Dali Oberon 5's which review very well for their pricepoint, found them to have a boomy, boxy type sound which I hate, had a sheet of wool type wadding from a previous purchase laying around, so just filled some gaps in the cabinet with it, hey presto, now love my speakers, upgrade cost zero 🙂
I'm only new to your station but I've watched many of your video's and noticed that regardless of make or price of speakers you seem to find problems with them which is cool. I have two question's the first being is there a speaker on the market you have heard that don't need any kind of tweaking at all Have you ever worked in a company that manufactures speakers ?
Any speaker can be improved or upgraded. We even offer upgrades to our own models. There are some gems out there that don't need much tweaking. I also have done design work for many other companies. My designs have won just about every industry award there is.
someone sent me a comment saying "So many amazing mixes have been done using these speakers, how do I explain that"? Many MORE mixes have been done on Yamaha NS10's than on Lintons. Few would ever refer to NS10's as "amazing speakers" Many mixes are done on Genelec speakers with very high order crossovers. Many mixes were done on old JBL 4311's. The way I explain that is simple: great engineers. Not great speakers. Example, I took a pair of speakers a physicist friend designed to a studio on Maui where Willie Nelson has recorded. The guy was using Genelec's. I left them with him over the weekend. When I returned to pick them up, he said they dropped his jaw and he was unprepared for the sound that came out of them and how DEEPLY he could hear into his mixes. A mastering engineer at Sony felt the same way. My friends speakers cut his mastering time in half, he said. You can mix on ANY speaker. I'm unaware of any studios using Linton's as mixing monitors, but stranger things have happened. As a recording engineer I ask ONE THING of monitors: DON'T SCREW UP THE WAVEFORM.
All very true. Many people that mix or master never really hear what is in the recording. We used to have a local recording studio come by ever few days to listen to something they mixed. Then they would go remix and come back again. I finally sold him a pair of mini monitors to mix with so that he could hear what he was listening for. I don't think he ever used his Mackies again.
@@ChicagoRob2 he kind of is in some ways. Not every speaker is supposed to have a perfectly flat frequency response. Some people WANT a bit of resonance or accentuated high end response. Sound is subjective. He must know this.
@@sergeysmelnik The Stereophile frequency response measurement is very similar to Danny’s. I also read several complaints from actual Linton owners of elevated bass, excessive warmth, and rolled off highs.
I just re-watched The Audiophiliac´s review. His observations match Danny's comments of parts quality and frequency response pretty much 100%. I am stunned!
The Audiophiliac always say to not trust the measurements so much but listen for yourself. That is a very good recommendation. If I recall correctly, he loves the B&W 606... ask Danny about those...
@@raymoore8435 yeah and it seems to me Danny doesn't provide upgrades to speakers he doesn't like. There are a couple of examples already. A lot of people think that if a speaker can be upgraded then it sucks. That's not how I see it. Steve's comments on frequency response match Danny's measurements and comments, and Steve's comments on treble quality match Danny's assessment of poor parts quality in the treble crossover circuit.
I have a pair of Linton's that I purchased in the spring of 2020. I'm an old timer and have these Linton's paired with a my restored Marantz 2270 that I purchased back in college around 1974 or 75. My wife and I do enjoy the Linton's warm sound but I've often wondered if they sounded a bit muddy at times. Our music preferences are varied as I listen to my old Pink Floyd albums along with newer pop as well. I stumbled across this video while looking at a few other audiophile reviews. I'll admit I'm a bit intrigued by this upgrade and wonder what type of skill level is needed to complete the upgrade. I'm assuming the work is completed from the front by removing the speakers and there is no need to break out the sawzall and open the backside. :) I did a bit of soldering when I was much younger as my father was an electronics repair man and unfortunately I didn't pick up all his skills but do have all his old irons. With this video being relatively new has anyone actually made the upgrade besides Danny and can speak to the merits of the upgrade both in sound quality and ease of doing the upgrade itself?
I've done some upgrades on my lintons. Lay lintons on their back, remove bas driver, unscrew and unplug the board from terminals and you should get enough room to do the work. No need to unsolder other wires. Most of the muddiness comes from the electrolytic 22uf midrange capacitor, you will also gain clarity if you change 6.8uf tweeter capacitor for something better. This will give you most benefits for not much work and money spent. You can also change sandcast resistors on high pass and midrange path with some better wire-wound resistors. Next you could change all of those yellow Spirit capacitors. I could say they make the sound of Lintons with their smooth character but they are just smoothing transients, not letting the details and natural sound come through.
Basically every speaker I have seen you review has 'cheesy' parts. Yet many were highly rated. I am doubting how stuff looks on your charts really matters much. But, it's good for your business.
@@jakep8484 A lot of these reintros have little to do with sound quality. More with taking advantage of the "back in the day" mystique. Like edge reflection and how it changes with or without the grill. That it was not designed out in this reintro when the effect is well known.
I own these and would never change the original design of any internal parts. The sound is beautiful and especially for the price, very hard to beat this performance and price point together in one speaker and its a three way....just a gorgeous sounding speaker. Can't wait for the dovetail's.
I have no issues with upgrading any speaker with better crossover parts.., my thoughts about this certain speaker, the Linton, is it is known and talked about by many owners that the sound of this certain speaker changes after a substantial amount of listening time on it. Now I have not seen measurements to back up these claims, but I would love to see some measurements 3 or so months after heavy hours being put on these speakers before putting better parts on it. If the measurements were different than the initial out of the box response would that call for different parts or values of parts? Would it make a difference in the parts you would choose..or no?
You are right. It does change with substantial time on it. I bought them nearly 2 years ago. They sound great now. Lovely tone. Listen all day sound . Don't be fooled by those immediately impressive speakers because after an hour , you're fatigued
Hey Danny. I’m curious why your measurements are so different from Erin’s Klippel measurements? Based on his measurements I wouldn’t change a thing but the parts quality.
Interestingly, I auditioned the Lintons last week as a possible replacement for my refurbished AR-2ax speakers. I did not like the roughness of the Linton's high frequencies and felt that my old ARs were better in most respects, except for efficiency and sound at low volumes. In the end I passed and will continue searching unless I can find something much better than the ARs
I've chosen simpler way. First i got rid of connectors and soldered wires to posts on drivers. Then I've gradually changed most of the Lintons crossover components for better ones with the exception of adding one bypass cap on C1 position. Pathaudio and Mundorf resistors, Jantzen Silver cap on C1 (slightly too extended heights but much more details, Miflex bypass cap helps), Jantzen Superior and Standard and Miflex KPCU capacitors. All together cost half of what Danny did. Lintons became much cleaner in midrange and bass, they are faster, breathe easier, are more dynamic and image better due to better tolerances of the components. What is most important, they retain most of their character. Haven't done any measurements but I can tell they sound closer to what I would like to hear, being a classical musician, conductor and an opera singer. One interesting thing I've noticed the other day when doing mastering with my not quite studio reference AKG K242HD headphones, that I like a lot for their lushness and pleasant midrange, is that they sound almost exactly the same as Lintons.
Danny, which reasonably cheap 15uF cap would you suggest on C3 high pass positition if I would like to get more realistic timber mostly on cymbals and better attack, transient response? Does changing this cap even matter all that much? I wouldn't risk with another Jantzen as they all seem a bit to smooth, silky with slight lack of texture. Though they are much much better than those original Chinese caps.
@@dannyrichie9743 sorry, C3 cap is second capacitor in high pass signal path. Comes after inductor. I guess this cap works as additional trimming of frequency drop curvature? It's hard to find good info about this specific design on internet.
I wonder what you would think of my old Philips' from 70's.. the baffle is even wider than this one, for sure sounds better with grill on but that's how they were designed
I had these speakers but I sent them back. I wasn't happy with the top end and integration with the other drivers. I'm pretty sure with this upgrade its going to sound real nice.
Is this the Wharfdale Linton 85th anniversary edition? There was also previously an anniversary edition in 1980. Important to know which model this is.
He says the kit includes 2 sheets in the video. But it wouldn't be a bad idea to add some corner braces much like what was done in the Forte III upgrade video with the owner Tyson.
I think these were never meant to have flat frequency curve. More like warm sounding with vintage look. What I have heard Wharfedale Evo-series is more "hifi speaker" sounding with flatter frequency curve. Wharfedale EVO 4.2 is fantastic in my opinion. I greatly appreciate work what Danny has done to it. Looking at the improved frequency curve it looks more something what I would like.
Would be great to see an upgrade to the EVO 4.2. Have owned them paired together with an Yamaha A-S2100 amplifier. Think they would be even better after an upgrade with better components.
The original crossover was probably designed to sound like an old fashion box speaker with a house curve. This is the one time I don't see the logic of upgrading. Most people probably bought it knowing what it is. Over priced for what it is in my opinion. I'm glad he had it on the table I thought they were bigger.
Lintons sound good to many ears that prefer their bass but for a tiny bit more you can get the KLH Model 5 which is more revealing and the bass is more accurate and faster.
I appreciate all your efforts and measurements, but do you ever listen to any of the speakers you test? I'm curious to how they sound before and after you fix them.
One of the upcoming videos is for a speaker I recently installed the upgrades for the customer and the difference was night and day. Stock, it was a rather dull, muddy sounding speaker. Nothing worth writing home about. After the upgrade tho, the clarity and detail across the full range is much improved, and they are a much more fun intereting speaker to listen to. Its suprising how much performance we got out of those speakers after the upgrade.
What is it in a speaker that dies or wears out first? I am asking this about not only the Lintons, but all speakers what wears out or dies ?The circuit board and components used in the Linton Heritage speakers are they so poor that the speakers will need to be thrown out or repaired in five years instead of 30 years or 50 years? How many years should we realistically expect to get out of a speaker? Thank you.
We need review of the classic JAMO Concert 8 bookshelf speakers🤔 Would be very curious to hear your thoughts and recommendations on those in the future 🙏
I did a direct comparison of these with my dealer, using my amp, with the Triangle 40th Anniversary Comètes. I bought the Comètes. I had thought the Lintons would be quite good, but was quite disappointed. The sounded dull, slow and woolly. The cost of the upgrade kit puts them roughly in the same price category of the Comètes, maybe even higher.
Congrats on the Cometes. I think Triangle speakers are superb, I have the Titus EZ and they are the best small speaker I've heard under £1000: agile, punchy, sweet, capable of big dynamic sweeps but also great delicacy. I'm sure the Cometes would be very special, particularly the anniversary edition.
These are excellent speakers but great when upgraded. Change to better crossover components(Mundorf and Jatzen, use same values), New binding post, solder all wires directly to the drivers with quality silver and treat all driver membranes with C37 lacquer. And then…you will have a serius high end speaker ($10k-$15k in my opinion compared to others that I own).
Quoted from Peter Comeau.
"I thought would put my official reply into this thread because there’s a lot of misinformation out there and it is worrying owners who, otherwise, would probably be quite happy with their speakers. I don’t want to get into arguments with people who have strong opinions on this subject, but you all deserve to know the difference between fact and BS. So here goes …
Resistors: as is typical in the hi-fi manufacturing industry, we use Cermet resistors. These are wirewound resistors encased in a ceramic housing. Generally they do their job very well and have minimal effect on dynamics. You can replace them with Mundorf Supreme and possibly get some benefit. I suspect that is probably the biggest audible difference in the HEADquarter Audio mod.
Capacitors: the majority of caps in the standard crossover are polypropylene. There are some high value electrolytics but they are bypassed with PP caps to reduce any distortion. So is there any reason to replace them? You could replace the electrolytics with a load of PP types but you’ll have trouble fitting them on the PCB.
I don’t really understand why HEADquarter Audio think that the really superb quality PP cap in the HF section can be improved by a Jantzen type? But I will get hold of some Jantzen caps and do some tests and report back on what I hear, probably after Christmas.
Coils: we use silicon iron layered core inductors in the bass and midrange in order to keep DC resistance low. These types of cores have a good hysteresis loop and, in general, I prefer to keep DC resistance low especially for high value inductors in the bass. There would be an audible difference if you replace the midrange coil with an air core but make sure you keep the DC resistance low. Which means a big coil! So you need to Mount it off the PCB and keep it well away and at right angles to the other coils.
What is often not appreciated about air core coils is that they are much more prone to electromagnetic interference than cored coils. So, if you’re going to use them, you need to space them well apart. Usually I use two PCBs if I’m going to do this.
Terminals: all our terminals are plated copper. Why people want to replace terminals like these I don’t understand. There might be a benefit in using a low metal content terminal like the special ones from WBT. Keeping the metal content low is supposed to reduce eddy current effects. But then you have all the wires and coils inside the speaker, which also contribute these effects, so what are you going to do?
Cables: we use good quality connecting cables internally. Some people like exotic cables. You could play around here but IMO the benefits, if any, are minimal. But maybe worth it to some people.
Solder connections to drive units: The reason we use push on connectors is to enable easy servicing. I have seen lots of drive units ruined by overheating the terminals when poorly soldered by hasty service mechanics. Years ago I held a blind listening test on soldered vs push on terminals. The results were inconclusive. Here’s why I think that is …
We crimp push on terminals onto the cables using high pressure machines. This makes an excellent metal to metal, air free joint. The push on terminals then slide tightly onto the drive unit terminal blades. This wiping action again makes a good metal to metal contact and our terminals are the locking type which means that contact stays stable. With soldered joints the current passes from the cable through solder to the blade. Most solder is an amalgam of different metals which lower its melting point, has a chemical action on the metal to wet it, and is oxidised when it melts and cools. If you’re going to use solder make sure it has a high percentage of silver and solder at the manufacturer’s recommended temperature.
Frequency response: Frequency response in axis at 1m doesn’t give you any clue as to how a speaker sounds. The ear/brain system is much more critical of temporal performance and whether the harmonic structure of an impulse is correct/realistic than it is of 3dB changes in frequency level. Also, how you make these measurements is critical. Making a gated response in-room, like GR Research, is prone to huge errors. Compare its results to the Stereophile and Erin’s Audio Corner reviews. Erin and Stereophile accord to the measurements I make as a designer.
Nuff said."
Thanks for this one! 👌
What Peter Comeau calls good, we call budget level cheesy parts. Much of what he just stated is total BS. The fact is these were built to a price point and the upgrade offers a considerable performance upgrade for those interested and many have ordered this upgrade. The feedback we get on the upgrade form the customer is overwhelming positive. So the performance speaks for itself.
The Lintons have become my personal end-game speakers as I near retirement. I absolutely love them. I have paired them with dual SVS SB3000 subwoofers .... and they put the artists in my room, pure and simple.
Do you use them purely for your stereo set up or do you use this with a home theater system as well?
I agree................These are giant killers ........and I don't care what the ISSUES are.........they satisfy me and that's all that matters!!!
Heard these numerous times with various electronics and consistently sounded like mud. But their owners loved them.
End game , Lol 🫢
@@tms372 Yes, absolutely … for me. Still true to this day. Have you found yours?
My Linton's don't need correcting, they sound freaking amazing.
Ditto!
@@StrangerInParadise58 Until you hear speakers that truly don't need correcting. It's like driving a VW bug, not knowing about Lexus. The bug seems fine. Then one day you drive a Lexus. Glad you love em.
@@daleboylen6427 Thanks for your perspective. I completely understand it, but I’ve come to adopt and appreciate a different perspective. Fortunately, I have heard & owned the kind of speakers of which you speak. But I prefer the Lintons. One of the cardinal realities of audio and human hearing is the relative nature of personal audio preferences and nirvana. When people forget or overlook this reality, they often get befuddled by what puts a smile on another person’s face. But this is their problem, not that of the person with the smile. In other words, some people prefer a Volkswagen Bug over a Lexus any day. 😊
I am sure you are more than aware of this reality, but it plays central to these types of discussions and is often overlooked or forgotten. This is true not just in the realm of audio, but in almost every other area of life as well. Just keeping it real. Thanks again - I appreciate it.
these were measured extensively. They don't need correcting.
😂
Very harsh words. In spring 2021, I had the opportunity to listen to these speakers in a special listening room and with many other speakers in a any price range. I loved them right away, they sound very good, especially bass. The most expensive speakers we listened to was 80 000€, but they were weak for me, too many high frequencies and less bass. I thinks this mode makes them like this 80000€ again, too much highs and low bass. There were 3 more audio files in the room, two of them didn't like Wharfedal as much as I did, but the third also liked it very much. I think these speakers are such that they like it very much or not at all. After listening to them, I went and bought these speakers and I am still very satisfied today.
I’m pretty sure if you had 80,000euros in your bank account you would have chose those instead of the Lintons.
@@borisbulldog If i have 80k€ free money, then Yes, i think, i wouldnt buy those speakers. But I wouldnt buy speakers I heard there, maybe i find something better for this money.
@@borisbulldog Unless he is hard-of-hearing, like most Linton owners.
Are those audio files (sic) kept in a filing cabinet¿
@@robertherman1146 What an ignorant comment. Linton owners are hard-of-hearing? Silly..
Thank goodness I listen to speakers and not graph's.
The graphs will show how accurate a speaker is and not how it sounds. However, the measured responses will reveal problems like out of phase drivers, ringing, break up, stored energy, and response imbalances. And those issues are audible.
It's all so ridiculous...
@@dannyrichie9743 Every Speaker's I own and listen to have there own character's. This makes it special and exciting.
If the graphs show a +15db boost 15khz-20khz they're going to be pretty awful harsh sounding they are
@@dannyrichie9743 if all of these “issues” are audible, then how come these speakers sound so good (as evidenced by the reviews and the hundreds of comments listed here)?
I like the sound of the Linton's as is, if I would upgrade, I assume it would be too bright for me.
Okay so Erin's Audio Corner reviewed these he does the most detailed measurements of anyone. His measurements don't show any of the issues yours did and neither did Stereophiles? Subjectively and objectively these speakers do great with reviewers and customers? But somehow with you these speakers are measuring so bad that's they need upgrades that cost 50% of the total original cost of the speakers? Something doesn't feel right here 🤔
Danny probably measure them without the grills. Grills have wave guide so they are essential for good response. Not trying to defend him. Just my thought. Erin is the way to go for sure.
So I think Danny measures between the tweeter and the mid-range, and Erin measures at tweeter level, hence different results. Erin's -10º vertical is a better match to Danny's on-axis. Which is correct? I guess it depends on the height of your stands and the listening position.
Also, GR-Research expensive replacement parts are not just about improving the frequency response. There are other elements to sound quality that do not show up in graphs.
I totally agree with you 😂 snake oil 😂
His modus operandi is to sell his oils..... haven’t watched too many of his videos(3-4), just comes across to me as someone dodgy and dishonest. (No evidence, just gut feelings from observing his mannerisms etc.... and I could be wrong).
@@franciscocunhaetavora9132 Erin measures with a Klippel and Danny measures at tweeter level. You are mistaken on both accounts.
Had my Linton for about 6-8 months now. To me music sounds like music. I’ve tried other speaker that people rave about and music sounds like an iPhone playing through a tin can (I’m all for clarity but people are getting insane gushing over overly bright bookshelf speakers with no bass at all). If you want a nice kinda warm, kind of smooth sound with any genre for these. Vocals and drums sound incredible. Soundstage is really easy to find and enjoy, separation of instruments is clear. I listen to them for around 10 hours a day and never feel fatigued from them. Treble is clear, midrange is incredible and clear and the bass is realistic and smooth. They also look freaking amazing. But each to their own. I listen to just about every genre from Americana to Techno and everything sounds great and inviting.
yes to each their own. I think they look ugly.
Right on, my friend! They look and sound amazing, for sure. So glad you are enjoying them as well.
And now the thousand dollar question : do the Linton have a "boxy" sound ? like most the vintage design have ?
Measurements are not music. If it SOUNDS good, it IS good. Measurements be damned. The reason "reviewers love these" is that they SOUND good.
I remember going round and round once with a senior member at ASR about the Reisong A10 amp. Six WPC point to point wired tube amp for under $500.00, and they sound great, especially when paired with speakers that are a bit bright. He could not accept that a component that measured badly could POSSIBLY sound good. His loss. Since then, I've always taken measurements with a grain of salt.
I do love my ls50 wireless 2 but you are NOT wrong
i have them in one of my systems and love them indeed, they are definitly coloured but have good warm sound that i like.
People who love the Wharfedale sound, will like the Lintons. I agree, the company could have invested a little more on the crossover components and drivers, and I believe that the more improved Lintons can sell well even at $2500. But even without the upgrades, I believe the Lintons as they are now, will attract a lot of audiophiles like me. I started many years ago with my first Wharfedales, the Diamond 5 and moved on to other Diamonds powered now by a tube integrated amplifier with EL 34's. Warm, smooth and beautiful music. I visited a friend's home the other night to listen to his $278,000 Focal speakers in his listening room, and a pair of $20,000. M40 Harbeths in his living room. I liked the Harbeths and found the Focals overwhelming even threatening but still impressive. Happy to get back home and listen comfortably to my stereo system which I bought brand new 8 years ago for around $1,400. Marantz cd, Cayin EL34 integrated tube amp, Diamond 10.4 floorstanders in my bedroom. Sublime contentment.
That is great!!!! More expensive is not always better!!! I have the Lintons and like them the best.....and my other speakers are more expensive!!
Exactly. Peter Corneau sad in the interview himself, that the final crossover design was version 11. He was chasing particular warm, classic tonality and wasn't content until he reached it. This is also one of the reasons the rest of my gear (multiple amps and CD players) all almost predominantly Yamaha, which is another hifi company that follows that specific idiom - 'sound first, technology second'.
Danny is in business to bad mouth most other speaker makers so he can sale his kits. Watch Audio Science review and you'll see he's mostly B.S.
Sound amazing whatever they threw in there. Love it the way it is. Smooth, soundstage is great.
Initial measurements graph is the one most would prefer as sounds more pleasing to majority of music lovers and is designed as such with purpose. It should sound warm and not detailed as with new parts.
Sound signature is suppose to recreate vintage sound that goes along with the looks.
Not all speakers are to be upgraded!
$1,400 with the amazing stands. The cabinet is three layers, MDO and chip board + the Wood veneer is beautiful. Set-up: the tweeters go to the insde, so there is a definite R/L speaker. I would love to have a pair. Love my Wharffie Evo 4.3 and 4.2. Hands off my Wharffie's geek!
where are you seeing that price? I see them for $1800 with stands in most places.
Well if the cabinet is MDO, we're sorry about this, there must have been a mistake in our production chain. One can always try to sell them back arguing it's real walnut, so you can quaduple the price. And that would be a nice deal.
Well Viv...they are real oak veneer but rather than the solid MDO of other manufacturers the walls are three layers with chip board at the inside layer, with purpose. This is the only neg review about these speakers. Excellent for the price.n before I'd f around adding $800 worth of aftermarket to these I'd just purchase the Wharfedale Evo 4.4, no brainer.
@@hmrowland6114 yeah this guys entire business is built around the typical audiophile FOMO. Once you learn to stop measuring and just start listening your life as an audiophile improves vastly. You invest more time enjoying music and way less obsessing about your next incremental tweak.
@@CliffForster Can we get an Amen, brother? You are so right.
I have finally finished installing the Danny designed upgrades to one of my two Lintons. I took the opportunity to A/B listen test the unmodified and Danny upgraded version in mono. Okay - so they are certainly not the same speakers. To be clear, the originals did not have the sound signature I enjoy (too laid back, midrange clarity was less than what I like, etc), thus why I went the upgrade path. The Danny designed version sounds much more upfront (not in your face) and the midrange clarity is astounding and the bass remains tight with (maybe) more extension. To my ears, the changes made by Danny in the frequency response are responsible for many of the positive (to me) changes. However, this upgrade has convinced me of the value of the parts quality! Listening over and over again to the same song on both speakers (alternating) was enough to 'sell' me. The major differences were in the treble and midrange - listening to Lumineers "Dead Sea", I could hear the separation of instruments, voices, and notes on individual instruments. Further, the lead singers voice can sometimes be a bit fatiguing over the unmodified Lintons, but this was gone with the modified one. Technical details - I used all the supplied upgrade parts except the tube connectors and no rez. I did not use the tube connectors because I did not wish to modify the cabinet. I did not use no Rez b/c the box is separated by the midrange tube (cabinet within cabinet) and the new crossover parts take up a lot of space, so I felt there was insufficient space left. So, instead I used roof membrane (rubberized asphalt adhesive backed by layer of high density cross laminated polyethylene) throughout the cabinet and then installed the crossover components on top. Other equipment: Benchmark pre-amp and dac, Schitt Aegir mono amp.
Hey Robert, did you get the second one done? Do you think you got value for money? I am hesitating it’s a lot of cash!
@@willbrown8433 It is pricey, but it took the speakers from not my taste to ones that I thoroughly enjoy. If I had not updated them, they would be back in a box or I would have sold them. There isn't really any comparison between the unmodified (fine) and the modified (really good). I have written more about this on the one of the other audio forms. Summary - for me it was very much worth it. The midrange is now incredible clear and articulate; i can hear details that were not present before. Hope that helps.
Awesome post. Finally someone speaking the truth. Lintons are horrible for treble and midrange, bass is awesome. It's unfortunate because they just sound dull, lack clarity and vocals are just bad. I'm considering spending money on upgrades, or just selling them. You play Hans Zimmer Curse of Black Pearl or Medley and you realize you miss 1/3 of the instruments. Sad experience.
Thanks for the detailed video. Would the no-rez alone make an improvement to these speakers? I feel there is sometimes too much bass or colouration as you mention. What could I expect from installing no-rez and would one sheet make an improvement in the most important cabinet areas or would two sheets definitely be required?
You reviewed the Wharfdale Linton and you found it had a "choppy" frequency response, and you revealed a curve you captured with your equipment of the Linton on loan to your shop that was in fact choppy, as you say. Stereophile magazine has reviewed a Wharfdale Linton pair that were decidedly not choppy, and the graph from their equipment demonstrated a frequency response free from choppiness. Why would Stereophile hide the choppiness? They don't sell expensive upgrades to Wharfdale Lintons and many other commercial products as you do. They don't stand to gain from frequency response that does not in fact exist.
Then you accused Wharfdale of using "cheesy" parts in their crossovers. You discussed the various kinds of parts you prefer to see in such crossovers, but you neglected to discuss the vast increase in price. I'm quite sure that the price of the Wharfdale Lintons was a major factor in their popularity. The same purchaser probably wouldn't buy the Lintons at the price you would make them with your "non-cheesy" parts.
An example of a "cheesy" part as described by you is a 4.7 microfarad non-polarized electrolytic capacitor that can be purchased from a parts supplier for sixty-seven cents. That is the kind of part most often used by most speaker manufacturers.
An example of the kind of part you would rather use is a film capacitor, and most speaker builders would not use such a part in that location. Why? A 4.7 microfarad film capacitor will cost you eighty-six dollars from the same parts supplier. Imagine using six or eight such capacitors. That is a fantastic price increase that does not make a change in sound quality that most people can hear. You would be hard-pressed to demonstrate the increase in sound quality between the "cheesy" capacitor and the eighty-six dollar capacitor. You'd be hard-pressed to measure the difference between the two parts. I can imagine why you might neglect to mention this price difference. In fact the sixty-seven cent part is not cheesy at all. You would be hard-pressed to hear the difference, and your customer would probably choose the "cheesy" part if he was informed about the price difference.
Also, there is no single response graph that encapsulates what the speaker will end up sounding like. Speakers have different curves at every angle and since we are going to hear multiple arrivals from the listening position (unless we listen in an anechoic chamber) manufacturers often have to sacrifice a perfectly flat on-axis response to achieve a flatter room response. This also means not all rooms are suitable for a given speaker. Peter Comeau is a very experienced engineer and I have a hard time believing these speakers did not meet his design criteria.
First of all International Audio Group owns Wharfedale, Quad, Mission, Luxman, Castle Acoustics, and Tag McLaren. How much advertising, kickbacks and industry junkets do you think those brands provide stereophile and their reps? Secondly, the parts these mid-fi Lintons are made with are on par with $600 polks. Ok sure that's common, but they're just low grade parts no matter how you rationalize it.
Now I'm not saying an upgrade makes sense here. I mean why spend that money on making a midfi speaker a bit better when you could just buy better speakers? But you barging in here with your bad logic and unfounded assertions sounds like you have an agenda.
Boom.
I'm sorry but that's not true, I've done a few blind tests to compare the caps. I even asked people who have nothing with audio. They all picked the expensive caps out... I tried to fool them and they still picked them out. It was quite a bummer for me cos from that point I needed to spent more money for my self build, and every single time when I design a crossover it's quite confrontating. ( my apologies for the bad grammar, I'm dutch🙈)
Interesting how you are wrong on every count.
Love my Lintons as-is from the factory.
They're supposed to have that warmed up bass region, makes them sound rich and warm at low to medium volume levels. I wonder how incredible you could have made it with some tweaks that left the woofer alone.
In most applications the bottom end is far from warm. That type of balance will be boomy in most rooms.
Curious how the tweeters hold up to most of your mods that pull the crossover down to around 1500hz. At 1W I'm sure they work fine, but what happens when we "get after it" as you eluded to? Most tweeters have almost no usable Xmax. Every time I've simulated a tweeter crossover that low with real world usable xmax included in the simulation things go pear shaped pretty quickly if we throw any power at it.
I've had mine for a month now running a LS3 pre and B&K mono amps and I get a great soundstage on these in my room and love the sound. If the upgrade improves the sound that would be even more amazing.
Let us know if you do it.
talking about narrow baffle, that is why i designed my speaker with 106mm baffle width, then a 45 degree angle backward for 40mm.
as narrow as i could get the woofers to fit.
I have them hooked up to my Luxman el84 amp, absolute heaven (25m2 room). Are there better? Certainly. At this price though, they are just fantastic (classical and jazz mostly)
Thank you for the clean, honest review!
honest, or honestly trying to sell something?
I love my Lintons and I have no problem with them designing to a price point. It is to be expected. I would much rather them leave room for improvement in the crossover than anywhere else. Besides, for the price, this speaker has proven to be a winner by many peoples ears. Ive planned to replace a few parts in the crossover but im a tad hesitant to change the design completely. I'll be looking forward to know how people respond to Danny's re-design.
If you have been in a mastering studio, you know that you absolutely don't want that "measurement perfection" in your leaving room ;) . The room correction is the first thing to do before any cross over tweeking or binding post replacement because frequency ring and bad reverberation is way more annoying than " cheesy parts " if you own those wonderful speakers.
All very good points.
Apart from the drivers, isn't the crossover the next most important component? I think the speaker manufacturers spend more effort / money on the cabinets than the crossovers, but the cabinets have less of and effect on the sound quality than the crossover. Surely a well braced plain MDF box is all you need but most people want their speakers to look good.
This is why the DIY route gives you far more bang for your buck. Spend 90% on quality components and make the box as fancy as you want. You can start with a plain box and upgrade to some fancy veneer later on when funds allow.
@@miheadhurts Yes the crossover is important but despite the 'cheesy' parts inside, I still have respect for the product Wharfedale made. Besides, the narrative I've heard before Danny's video is that this speaker's performance punches above it's price point. I've seen nothing but good reviews. There are plenty of speakers with 'cheesy' parts that sound fantastic. If you want more then you will spend more.
@@user-bj9ln4em6n no doubt they sound great but the parts might cost Wharfedale $300-$400. If you spend the same amount on the XLS Encore then you are likely to have a better speaker in the Encore. The Hi Fi manufacturers cannot compete with the the GR Research business model. Wharfedale get the speaker made in China, pay a decent amount for the packaging, ship to the US, pay import duty, send to distributors, send to the store and add tax then sell to the consumer. DIY isn't for everyone, but for those who are handy, it's the best way to build an awesome speaker for the least amount of cash. I'm weighing up with going with the pimped out Encores or Lii Audio Betsy open baffles. The Encores would suit my room better.
I am wondering how much of distortion is added by those "cheesy parts" in comparison to the distortion of speaker drivers themselves.
I am using a MiniDSP in conjunction with the Wharfedale Linton. I believe this is the best way to EQ the speakers to your meet your listening preference. Much cheaper without opening up the speakers. The main disadvantage is I could never achieve the increased sensitivity compare to the crossover upgrade. Then again, at the original 88 to 89 sensitivity, this is already quite good to begin with.
85,1dB/2,8v meassured. Which is very good real value.
Sir, I'm an old lover of Hi Fidelity from back in the 70's.. I am now diving back into HiFi .. I never was able to own any HiFi components of real value before, so I'm starting from scratch. so after listing and watching your videos and learning about the true engineering, it makes me want to take apart the components I already have just to see what's inside. I enjoy your videos it helps me to carefully select my future purchases... I'm at a budget level of $2k maybe $3k for any speakers or amps. Thanks for your educational videos it's helping me tremendously!
I have the Lintons. We replaced a cap and a condenser I think for the high frequencies. That really helped the high frequency smooth out. I'm wondering about your setup. How much work is it to put the new crossover in? Thank you .
Pretty simple.
Nice results.
Have a pair of the Wharfedale Denton 80th. Same sound signature, boosted bass and recessed highs. The highs also sound grainy at times. Overall like the speakers just wish they were more balanced and refined.
Any plans to analyze the Dentons or the Triangle BR03?
I never plan to upgrade anything. I just work on whatever people send in.
The Lintons are supposed to be listened with the grilles on.
I preferred the Sonus Faber Lumina III to the Lintons, but the Lintons are awesome speakers.
How could a speaker get, what seems to be, unanimous rave reviews across the board and have such a choppy response? Does that mean frequency response is somehow irrelevant? If there are negative--even mildly negative-- reviews out there, I haven't seen them. One of the most jaw dropping statements made about this speaker came from Erin's Audio Corner in his recently released video "My Top Five Speakers at ANY COST". He picked the Lintons in this group! -- And he owns a Klippel Near Field Acoustic Scanning System--as far as I know, the most powerful (and expensive) speaker measurement system on the planet.
I can understand that these products use cheaper parts to fit into a certain price category, but I can't understand why these large companies, with very large budgets to hire top design engineers, would intentionally put out a poorly designed system. Where am I figuring wrong?
Some of those reviewers are really using budget level or mid fi level systems in rooms that are not well treated or set up well. So the bar isn't set very high.
What puzzles me is the supposed reverence to the original Linton and Denton. I remember the 70s incarnations of these were cheap and not very good sounding speakers. Dull and boxy. They went through a number of iterations but none I recall were reviewed that well. The name certainly had a long production run though.
"The name certainly had a long production run though." Usually an indication that SOMEBODY liked them.
@@careylymanjones or that they had a good marketing department and idiots didnt know how much they sucked.
@@careylymanjones Or that Sears bought up a gazillion units and sold them cheap to the masses.
from the factory under 1000 dollars what brand would you say go to for build and sound quality?
Gil Hardy
Remember those giant Fisher stereo systems? I think you could get them at places like Sear's or JC Penney's. The speakers were probably close to 5 feet tall, & had 15" woofers.
I have a pair of Mirage here that are four feet tall and sound very good. They are music they have a driver on both sides..bi polar I think it's called.
I do remember them. They had half-inch thick unbraced cabinets and the cheapest drivers and one-cap crossovers you could buy. 100% for looks.
My one critique: Danny assumes we all want flat frequency response or close to it. That's so misguided.
Omg, speaker designers voice speakers how they want to for a reason. Some speakers are going for prominent vocals. Some are going for added bass. Some are going for low listening fatigue, etc. Some try to balance all three.
Danny, please consider making crossover improvements which don't target frequency response too much.
Please target better phase integration, directivity improvements, and distortion improvements/decay results.
Consider not fussing about boosted areas and specific dips. They're often intended. Hint: most people enjoy more bass, better speech clarity (boosting a few regions humans don't hear well) and a way of reducing listening fatigue (cutting frequencies which resonate in the human ear canal). The revised ANSI Fletcher Munson curves provide the clues.
i agree...all videos are about make them ( speakers) "flat"., almost stripping "personality" from the product to achieve uniformity...I thought he (Danny) needs to work for the government...impose the control over crowds- don't be too loud, don't be too quiet, don't look like that, etc.
A more accurate frequency response is minor compared to what I focus on. Most of the corrections or real improvements that I make can be seen in a the spectral decay. That is where the most audible problems and real distortions can be seen. I also look at overall responses in the vertical and horizontal off axis. Strong improvements are also made from the quality of parts used along with removing poor connections and insertion losses of cheesy binding posts and wire. Further improvements are made by controlling cabinet wall resonances. These are more comprehensive and complete upgrades.
@@dannyrichie9743 ok, thanks for the clarification. And keep producing great content, I really do enjoy it.
@Danny Richie: Mic Drop! 😄
@@oleplanthafer7034 how was it a mic drop? Hint: it wasn't.
He thinks he doesn't change the frequency response all that much, while I think he tends to flatten things out a bit too much while not focusing on other criteria I find more important.
It is true that he often smooths the impedance results which does make a speaker easier to drive.
Our disagreement is a matter of scale. It's nice to hear that the frequency response in his mind isn't always the most important improvement he makes.
Phase, distortion, decay, and impedance are in my mind a better area to focus on than using most of the time on these upgrade videos talking about frequency response.
So if you change the iron core inductors would you change the sound? Maybe those inductors help make the sounds that many people that have them like them for.
Changing them out for an air core inductor will just remove smearing and allow them to sound cleaner.
OK, so I don't own these, but for some reason I want to defend them.. I would like speakers with somewhat flat response, because that's a good starting point, and I have a treated room that I will treat more, and I use my speakers to mix records. So, that's one use case. Another, more typical use case is that you buy speakers and put them in your untreated living room and those speakers will either compliment the room acoustics or not. Maybe your room is large and light on bass - these might sound full where other speakers might sound thin. On the other hand, maybe your room has thick carpets so it's boxy and dark - you might want a speaker that measures bright and has a big dip at 800 hz. Beyond that, there is taste. So if you own these, and like them, it's very possible that things lined up for you. I say all of this because I have speakers that measure very flat in my mix room that are awesome for that, and I also have vintage speakers in my living room that I know there is no way they measure anywhere near flat, and they kick butt in that room by looking and sounding fun!
Same here! But if I was forced to choose between my Focal (Twin be) and the Linton, I'll choose the Linton :). The imaging is far better on the focal however...
Couldn’t agree more. Frequency response and other characteristics of speakers are like how you prefer your food to be seasoned. Some like some spice, others like some zest. Heck some people even enjoy pineapple on their pizza. The obsession with perfectly flat frequency response - not sure I get it.
Pineapple? pizza? That's illegal where I live.
Well, to a certain point, of course, but isn't it why EQ was put in use to begin with. -To EQUALize -To flatten the response? New speakers might not even have crossovers anymore, now more and more come with in-built amps with DSP. That's progress and I very much look forward to mass-production from more manufacturers.
@@EJK1965 Pineapple, which is sweet, paired with a salty meat, such as ham or Canadian bacon, paired with a spicy sauce, maybe with sun-ripened tomatoes, can balance the variety of flavors very nicely. Mixing sweet with spicy is a cliché in Sichuan cuisine.
Pineapple isn't one of my favorite pizza toppings, but, if there's a fresh pineapple and Canadian bacon pizza on a buffet, I'll grab a slice or two.
I love this style of speaker. I've repaired and upgraded many pairs of Ditton 44s and just love that 70s style. Yes they have issues with having such a big front baffle and that trim round the face doesn't help but they are beautiful. Like you Danny I do wish manufacturers would put better parts in their crossovers.
Their not there.
Do you think I can replace tweeter with something like sb acoustic beryllium tweeter without changing crossover? Or this will need redesigning crossover to new values? Thanks
That would require a complete redesign of the crossover.
Interesting as always; especially the series/parallel part. One thing I don’t understand: what is a “fast” woofer and why would they need to be smaller. Don’t those little “fast” woofers have to move like crazy in those small ported boxes after they’re bsc’ed to produce LF?
The smaller the woofer, the less mass the cone has. The less mass it has, the faster the cone can move. The faster the cone can move, the greater the potential to resolve fine detail.
For 2.1 music-only applications, an 8" subwoofer is usually better than a 10" or 12". Home theater is a different ballgame. In home theater, it's all about moving air, and picking up fine detail in an explosion is generally not an issue.
Have you done any test on the KLH model five speakers and are they a good speaker.
There are 2.2ohm resistor located in right before the tweeter. I want to get it out for the tweeter brighter more. Did you do this before sir? Any comment for me please ?
I don't know... I own these as well, I love the warmth and tonality of these, highs could be a little cleaner and center imaging could be more spot on, but what I found after testing with various equipment and placement they do have a sound that keeps you engaged. "Even better with the right equipment" they are smooth and easy on the ears. I would be tempted to hear the difference however if you, yourself didn't or couldn't do a A/B comparison before and after the changes I would be skeptical to purchase at $731 without real world listening. I would be afraid it would change the tonality that makes these so good. I get the fact that these use cheap parts on the crossover but that has everything to do with price/performance and target audience they were going for. Were not talking Wilson Audio, Joseph Audio here with there spare no expense crossover/cabinet designs. The designer himself "Peter Comeau" spends hours/months of listening and tweaking before releasing his designs which the Linton's are one of those designs. You managed to do it in what 2 -3 weeks with no listening, based on graphs? I'm not trying to bash you and I am certainly not questioning your technical ability because you do excellent work but you should offer a trial or partial money back for at least the crossover it's self if the sound isn't up to par... Or give a few out to Linton owners as a real world test! Watch Peter the Linton's designer here - czcams.com/video/F1WYNCZqOKY/video.html
The upgrade isn't going to loose or give up anything that they had. It is going to take every aspect to another level (or two or three levels). And I have spent a carriers worth of time comparing the sonic signature of these parts. So I know exactly what the before and after effects are going to be.
I have never had anyone say the smearing of those cheesy parts sure sounded better than the much cleaner sound of the higher quality parts.
Hi Danny, I'm a fan and long time watcher myself. I've often wondered if you actually listen to the speakers in stereo with proper placement before redesigning crossovers? Most of the time I get the impression you only have one speaker on hand and go purely off of measurements.
These Lintons, for example, are voiced to sit on the included stands. Did you have the stands to listen to them?
@@deeplyclosetedindividual Listening to a poorly designed speaker or a speaker full of budget level parts is not useful in correcting what is wrong with them. I can hear the problems and quickly note the sound of a speaker playing through a wet blanket, but in the end I need to take the measurements to see the issues and get an idea of what will be needed to fix them.
The upgrade in parts quality has more to do with how they sound in this case. The redesign just slightly rebalanced them to a more accurate level. No Rez takes care of the cabinet resonance issues of a large unbraced box, and new wiring and tube connectors improve clarity as well.
I'm exactly in the same position! There is something « magic » about those speakers in my point of view. A reviewer said: With those, you focus on the music performance not the sound of the speaker or technicality. And indeed they are more forgiving for poor or old recording but when you listen to something really well recorded, they shine...
@@deeplyclosetedindividual Fried, if you've watched enough of Danny's videos you'll find that he's a knowledgeable designer with a one track mind. There can only be one way for speakers to measure. One quality level for crossover parts, well, unless those parts are in his base level crossovers then they're okay. He loves to use the term "fix" when nothing is actually broken. It's merely that a speaker doesn't measure the way he wants it to measure. If someone thinks they like the same sort of sound Danny likes then they should just buy his kits rather than buying a speaker and sending it in to him in order to try and change it into something they like.
The Lintons do have a smoky, bass heavy sound and a lot of people like that. Different strokes for different folks except in GR land.
Nice upgrade to the design. I'm not sure I agree that all wide baffle speakers image poorly though compared to narrow baffle speakers. It depends on how well they are designed. Narrow baffles do inherently image better but you typically have the baffle step problems with the sharp dip in the bass response which is almost impossible to remove effectively with filters. Not so much of an issue with wide baffle speakers which have made a bit of a comeback recently.Take the JBL L100 Classic for example which images superbly well for a chunky speaker.
Bingo!!!
I've been hoping someone would eventually send these in.
Sounds like they should have gone to the dump.. for the money..
What do u recomend for wharfedale Diamond 10.6?
thank you for your time and info.
Is there a crossover upgrade for wharfedale evo 4.2 speakers?
If I may ask have you tested and tryed the Wharfedale Dovedale? and if so how do you think they compare ?.
I have not.
2:08 Yeah the manufacturer recommends using the grills for sure. Wharfedale is known for this.
wharfedales from denton 80th, 85th, and linton need a good amount of time to break in and paired with a lively amp
Can I connect 15ohm crossover to 8ohm or 11ohm driver unit? Thanks.
Merry Christmas 🎄
Thanks for all the great vids n info 👍🏻
@+❶ ❸３１７１❼３➃❼❹viaWhatsApp I won ?
12:06 Bless you for correcting yourself and using the adverb. Made my day.
one of the best measuring speaker of all times, damn near perfect, if you touch them you should go straight to the seventh circle. stop being a snake oil schill.
Based on whose measurements? Show me an independent 3rd party measuring them, not Stereophile that reaps lots of ad revenue from IAG who owns many brands, including Wharfedale. I wish someone would send G-R a set of Evo 4.4 speakers for testing and any "upgrades" to see how they compare to the Lintons.
You mentioned adding a sub after your upgrade. Does the new network change the bass performance, low frequency roll off? I ask because I am currently running these in a work shop type garage area off a Naim XS, and has just the right amount of low end as is.
The bottom end is not changed, but everything else is brought up to reach it.
@@sergeysmelnik The chart he shows cuts off at 200.
@@sergeysmelnik Sorry, but your speculations are without basis.
@@sergeysmelnik I am not at all interested in what is going on at Audio Theory Review. Those are not industry professionals. Companies are not coming to them for driver design work, crossover design work, product line designs etc. They've won no industry awards. Am not interested in the least, and I stand behind my measurements. They have been confirmed many times.
@@sergeysmelnik First of all, they are known as Audio Theory Review because the name fits. They do no (zero) science. They take measurements and then theorize what the audible result will be. They do no listening at all to confirm their theories.
One of their guys built out one of our least expensive kits, no upgrades, just the base level model. They measured it and said it was great. Then Amir listen to one speaker. He liked it and gave it a recommendation. How was the imaging? How was the sound stage layering? He doesn't know. He listened to one speaker. That is a complete and total joke.
Buying the most expensive measuring equipment doesn't make you an expert. If you don't know the audible differences of power cables, speaker cables, capacitors, wiring, connectors you are no expert. You are still at square one. And if you believe the rhetoric they spew over there then you are a fool.
Repeating what you saw on the internet doesn't make you an expert either. If you want to really learn what is audible and what is not then come on over for a visit and class will begin.
what is a good speaker in your book in the 1500 - 2000 dollar range i ask myself ?
Visit our website.
Can the upgrade be done by a novice? And do you have any how to videos ? Thanks for the review
HPF for tweeter and LPF for midrange driver? Did I hear it right from GR?
I'd certainly be interested to see a review of a pair of Quad ESL-57 - and a crossover diagnose and upgrade .... or better still, a stacked pair ....
Me to
Hey Danny - do you ever upgrade subwoofers? If no-any reason why not? thanks
No, there are no passive filters in a sub-woofer.
That sounds like it would be a good listen. The retro looks are appealing. Maybe some felt or foam on the baffle would help.
I get the feeling that Wharfedale wanted a slightly vintage sound, a nod to designs they had in the 1960s and 1970s, old Wharfedales seemed a bit warm, mid-forward and a bit soft in the treble. They would have used paper drivers and would probably have been designed around low wattage amplifiers. I guess these would still sound modern, more revealing and give reasonable bass at normal to low volumes. Modern recordings have almost too much treble so the down tilt would have been good at balancing the sound. I don’t know, I haven’t auditioned them. What did they sound like playing music? I am guessing they covered their tracks well by being easy to listen to. I would love to get a review of the standard vs the GR modified version. The new one must be transformed. Please let us know how they compare playing music in a review situation.
The NEW Wharfedale Dovedale speakers actually have TWO PC Boards isolated from each other for their crossover network. One for the bass and the other for the mid/treble! Look for some of the CZcams videos of Peter Comeau from Wharfedale talking about crossover designs. His knowledge of them FAR EXCEED's Dannys knowledge.
If loading a speaker up with the cheapest and cheesiest parts money can buy makes a guy appear smart then I am fighting a loosing battle.
@@dannyrichie9743 Did you even bother to watch the video? I didn't think so. While I respect your knowledge and channel, what you say is not the LAST WORD in Speaker and crossover design!
@@dontcare563 Well, I know one thing for sure. Whoever is designing crossovers for Wharfedale certainly is not the guy to be praising. We just had the Wharfedale Denton in for upgrades. Man, that thing was a mess.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm specifically talking about the new Dovedale.
@@dontcare563 Go ahead and find some photo's of the crossover.
I love watching Danny's name & shame videos but it doesn't always have to be all or nothing either, recently bought a pair of Dali Oberon 5's which review very well for their pricepoint, found them to have a boomy, boxy type sound which I hate, had a sheet of wool type wadding from a previous purchase laying around, so just filled some gaps in the cabinet with it, hey presto, now love my speakers, upgrade cost zero 🙂
I'm only new to your station but I've watched many of your video's and noticed that regardless of make or price of speakers you seem to find problems with them which is cool. I have two question's the first being is there a speaker on the market you have heard that don't need any kind of tweaking at all
Have you ever worked in a company that manufactures speakers ?
Any speaker can be improved or upgraded. We even offer upgrades to our own models. There are some gems out there that don't need much tweaking. I also have done design work for many other companies. My designs have won just about every industry award there is.
someone sent me a comment saying "So many amazing mixes have been done using these speakers, how do I explain that"?
Many MORE mixes have been done on Yamaha NS10's than on Lintons. Few would ever refer to NS10's as "amazing speakers"
Many mixes are done on Genelec speakers with very high order crossovers.
Many mixes were done on old JBL 4311's.
The way I explain that is simple: great engineers. Not great speakers.
Example, I took a pair of speakers a physicist friend designed to a studio on Maui where Willie Nelson has recorded. The guy was using Genelec's.
I left them with him over the weekend.
When I returned to pick them up, he said they dropped his jaw and he was unprepared for the sound that came out of them and how DEEPLY he could hear into his mixes.
A mastering engineer at Sony felt the same way. My friends speakers cut his mastering time in half, he said.
You can mix on ANY speaker. I'm unaware of any studios using Linton's as mixing monitors, but stranger things have happened.
As a recording engineer I ask ONE THING of monitors: DON'T SCREW UP THE WAVEFORM.
All very true. Many people that mix or master never really hear what is in the recording. We used to have a local recording studio come by ever few days to listen to something they mixed. Then they would go remix and come back again. I finally sold him a pair of mini monitors to mix with so that he could hear what he was listening for. I don't think he ever used his Mackies again.
Wharfedale fans are going to lose their minds over this. It's supposed to be coloured and the cabinet is supposed to be hollow and resonant.
He’s basically full of shit
You take it too hard. Danny is just not into smearing.
@@raymoore8435 That’s a bold statement.
@@ChicagoRob2 he kind of is in some ways. Not every speaker is supposed to have a perfectly flat frequency response. Some people WANT a bit of resonance or accentuated high end response. Sound is subjective. He must know this.
@@sergeysmelnik The Stereophile frequency response measurement is very similar to Danny’s. I also read several complaints from actual Linton owners of elevated bass, excessive warmth, and rolled off highs.
I just re-watched The Audiophiliac´s review. His observations match Danny's comments of parts quality and frequency response pretty much 100%. I am stunned!
The Audiophiliac always say to not trust the measurements so much but listen for yourself. That is a very good recommendation. If I recall correctly, he loves the B&W 606... ask Danny about those...
@@guystpierrecomposer jo
I watched it too, and that’s not true! He doesn’t review products he doesn’t like, said so himself.
@@raymoore8435 yeah and it seems to me Danny doesn't provide upgrades to speakers he doesn't like. There are a couple of examples already. A lot of people think that if a speaker can be upgraded then it sucks. That's not how I see it.
Steve's comments on frequency response match Danny's measurements and comments, and Steve's comments on treble quality match Danny's assessment of poor parts quality in the treble crossover circuit.
I have a pair of Linton's that I purchased in the spring of 2020. I'm an old timer and have these Linton's paired with a my restored Marantz 2270 that I purchased back in college around 1974 or 75. My wife and I do enjoy the Linton's warm sound but I've often wondered if they sounded a bit muddy at times. Our music preferences are varied as I listen to my old Pink Floyd albums along with newer pop as well.
I stumbled across this video while looking at a few other audiophile reviews. I'll admit I'm a bit intrigued by this upgrade and wonder what type of skill level is needed to complete the upgrade. I'm assuming the work is completed from the front by removing the speakers and there is no need to break out the sawzall and open the backside. :) I did a bit of soldering when I was much younger as my father was an electronics repair man and unfortunately I didn't pick up all his skills but do have all his old irons. With this video being relatively new has anyone actually made the upgrade besides Danny and can speak to the merits of the upgrade both in sound quality and ease of doing the upgrade itself?
I've done some upgrades on my lintons. Lay lintons on their back, remove bas driver, unscrew and unplug the board from terminals and you should get enough room to do the work. No need to unsolder other wires. Most of the muddiness comes from the electrolytic 22uf midrange capacitor, you will also gain clarity if you change 6.8uf tweeter capacitor for something better. This will give you most benefits for not much work and money spent. You can also change sandcast resistors on high pass and midrange path with some better wire-wound resistors. Next you could change all of those yellow Spirit capacitors. I could say they make the sound of Lintons with their smooth character but they are just smoothing transients, not letting the details and natural sound come through.
Basically every speaker I have seen you review has 'cheesy' parts. Yet many were highly rated. I am doubting how stuff looks on your charts really matters much. But, it's good for your business.
No photo of the new crossover ???
Would have been nice to have a little detail about the actual sound before and after.
With all these old school reintros, one is left to wonder when the Pioneer CS-99A will come back out! Loved the lattice grill! 😆
Cs63dx was above the 99a and sounds better, that one should be the one to come back
@@jakep8484 A lot of these reintros have little to do with sound quality. More with taking advantage of the "back in the day" mystique. Like edge reflection and how it changes with or without the grill. That it was not designed out in this reintro when the effect is well known.
Great review, thanks!
Thanks, I did hear them but passed. I like the Legacy HD monitors. More detail and tighter bass.
I own these and would never change the original design of any internal parts. The sound is beautiful and especially for the price, very hard to beat this performance and price point together in one speaker and its a three way....just a gorgeous sounding speaker. Can't wait for the dovetail's.
When you get tired of mediocrity let me know. Our upgrade takes them up several levels.
@@dannyrichie9743 would be great if you offered drop in PCB/crossover. That way a noob doesn't have to disassemble existing crossover and fit parts.
@@user-gf7kj5vj3p To make it worth making the circuit boards I'd have to have 500 or 1000 of them made.
I have no issues with upgrading any speaker with better crossover parts.., my thoughts about this certain speaker, the Linton, is it is known and talked about by many owners that the sound of this certain speaker changes after a substantial amount of listening time on it. Now I have not seen measurements to back up these claims, but I would love to see some measurements 3 or so months after heavy hours being put on these speakers before putting better parts on it. If the measurements were different than the initial out of the box response would that call for different parts or values of parts? Would it make a difference in the parts you would choose..or no?
You are right. It does change with substantial time on it. I bought them nearly 2 years ago. They sound great now. Lovely tone. Listen all day sound . Don't be fooled by those immediately impressive speakers because after an hour , you're fatigued
@@nasdkhan254 yeah, I have experienced that before
Hey Danny. I’m curious why your measurements are so different from Erin’s Klippel measurements? Based on his measurements I wouldn’t change a thing but the parts quality.
His Klippel may be showing the response as an average group of measurements. Mine are showing actual measurements.
Love these vids, Danny
Very Interresting! Also Interresting for me is the Magnat and Heco loudspekers. Maybe in future?
I’ve been doing series crossover between the woofer and mid for years. It’s my go to in a 3 way with a good mid.
Interestingly, I auditioned the Lintons last week as a possible replacement for my refurbished AR-2ax speakers. I did not like the roughness of the Linton's high frequencies and felt that my old ARs were better in most respects, except for efficiency and sound at low volumes. In the end I passed and will continue searching unless I can find something much better than the ARs
I've chosen simpler way. First i got rid of connectors and soldered wires to posts on drivers. Then I've gradually changed most of the Lintons crossover components for better ones with the exception of adding one bypass cap on C1 position. Pathaudio and Mundorf resistors, Jantzen Silver cap on C1 (slightly too extended heights but much more details, Miflex bypass cap helps), Jantzen Superior and Standard and Miflex KPCU capacitors. All together cost half of what Danny did. Lintons became much cleaner in midrange and bass, they are faster, breathe easier, are more dynamic and image better due to better tolerances of the components. What is most important, they retain most of their character. Haven't done any measurements but I can tell they sound closer to what I would like to hear, being a classical musician, conductor and an opera singer.
One interesting thing I've noticed the other day when doing mastering with my not quite studio reference AKG K242HD headphones, that I like a lot for their lushness and pleasant midrange, is that they sound almost exactly the same as Lintons.
Danny, which reasonably cheap 15uF cap would you suggest on C3 high pass positition if I would like to get more realistic timber mostly on cymbals and better attack, transient response? Does changing this cap even matter all that much? I wouldn't risk with another Jantzen as they all seem a bit to smooth, silky with slight lack of texture. Though they are much much better than those original Chinese caps.
@@miharoskar I don't have the original crossover here anymore.
@@dannyrichie9743 sorry, C3 cap is second capacitor in high pass signal path. Comes after inductor. I guess this cap works as additional trimming of frequency drop curvature? It's hard to find good info about this specific design on internet.
@@miharoskar If it is a second cap in the tweeter circuit then it needs to be the same type of cap as the first one in the tweeter circuit.
@@dannyrichie9743 thank you
I wonder what you would think of my old Philips' from 70's.. the baffle is even wider than this one, for sure sounds better with grill on but that's how they were designed
Did you measured this speakers with grill on or off?
Both.
I had these speakers but I sent them back.
I wasn't happy with the top end and integration with the other drivers.
I'm pretty sure with this upgrade its going to sound real nice.
they are awesome without any upgrade.
Hardly....
Is this the Wharfdale Linton 85th anniversary edition? There was also previously an anniversary edition in 1980. Important to know which model this is.
85th Anniversary model.
You didn't mention adding no-res to the sides, that or add bracing to the insides to tame any resonances?
He says the kit includes 2 sheets in the video.
But it wouldn't be a bad idea to add some corner braces much like what was done in the Forte III upgrade video with the owner Tyson.
Thanks, I missed that! Yes, I'd still brace.
@@nacarp2000 oh absolutely.
I think these were never meant to have flat frequency curve. More like warm sounding with vintage look. What I have heard Wharfedale Evo-series is more "hifi speaker" sounding with flatter frequency curve. Wharfedale EVO 4.2 is fantastic in my opinion. I greatly appreciate work what Danny has done to it. Looking at the improved frequency curve it looks more something what I would like.
Would be great to see an upgrade to the EVO 4.2.
Have owned them paired together with an Yamaha A-S2100 amplifier.
Think they would be even better after an upgrade with better components.
Peter Comeau designed these speakers to be used with the grills on - all of their heritage-type speakers are designed this way.
The original crossover was probably designed to sound like an old fashion box speaker with a house curve. This is the one time I don't see the logic of upgrading. Most people probably bought it knowing what it is. Over priced for what it is in my opinion. I'm glad he had it on the table I thought they were bigger.
Lintons sound good to many ears that prefer their bass but for a tiny bit more you can get the KLH Model 5 which is more revealing and the bass is more accurate and faster.
The Model 5 isnt as accurate objectively. Full spins of both speakers on Erin's channel.
I appreciate all your efforts and measurements, but do you ever listen to any of the speakers you test? I'm curious to how they sound before and after you fix them.
Sometimes I do. And I have spent TONS of time comparing the components and learning the effect they have on the sound.
One of the upcoming videos is for a speaker I recently installed the upgrades for the customer and the difference was night and day. Stock, it was a rather dull, muddy sounding speaker. Nothing worth writing home about. After the upgrade tho, the clarity and detail across the full range is much improved, and they are a much more fun intereting speaker to listen to. Its suprising how much performance we got out of those speakers after the upgrade.
A shame its so difficult and expensive to get your diy kits to Denmark.
If l were to buy these and sent you the crossovers for modification would you do it?
Right now, we are not taking on assembly work.
What is it in a speaker that dies or wears out first? I am asking this about not only the Lintons, but all speakers what wears out or dies ?The circuit board and components used in the Linton Heritage speakers are they so poor that the speakers will need to be thrown out or repaired in five years instead of 30 years or 50 years?
How many years should we realistically expect to get out of a speaker? Thank you.
The old electrolytic caps are the first to go.
We need review of the classic JAMO Concert 8 bookshelf speakers🤔 Would be very curious to hear your thoughts and recommendations on those in the future 🙏
We just did. Keep an eye out for the next video.
I did a direct comparison of these with my dealer, using my amp, with the Triangle 40th Anniversary Comètes. I bought the Comètes. I had thought the Lintons would be quite good, but was quite disappointed. The sounded dull, slow and woolly. The cost of the upgrade kit puts them roughly in the same price category of the Comètes, maybe even higher.
Congrats on the Cometes. I think Triangle speakers are superb, I have the Titus EZ and they are the best small speaker I've heard under £1000: agile, punchy, sweet, capable of big dynamic sweeps but also great delicacy. I'm sure the Cometes would be very special, particularly the anniversary edition.
@Ruben Ramero It seems to drive many other speakers very well.
These are excellent speakers but great when upgraded. Change to better crossover components(Mundorf and Jatzen, use same values), New binding post, solder all wires directly to the drivers with quality silver and treat all driver membranes with C37 lacquer. And then…you will have a serius high end speaker ($10k-$15k in my opinion compared to others that I own).
I hope someone sends you a pair of KLH Model 5’s for upgrading. I want to see how they do because that’s the speaker I may buy.
I think New Record Day received a pair of them in for review.