Important Armor! The Maille Standard, or Chainmail Collar
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- The importance of the chainmail collar, or maille standard, to late medieval armor. Collar from www.capapie.co.uk/
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What Matt doesn't mention about his mail collar is that he likes to keep a very high standard. Great content as usual!
Is that really where that comes from?
@@DC3328 “It was called a standard because the part encircling the neck and throat was able to stand upright without any external stiffening.” Per Wikipedia.
@@DC3328 Yeah, I'm just being silly with the word. I have no idea where the name came from.
In a cutthroat world you really do need a high standard.
@@themadscientest indeed, something to turtleneck in
13:54 Hello, I've got a tip for you ;)
If you don't want to use oil for maille I recommend using beeswax.
I've been using it for years now and it is the most efficient and cleaner way to protect your maille I believe.
First, clean off all of the oil from your maille and apply with a cloth soft beeswax (neither solid or liquid).
Don't be scared to apply too much of it as the excess will be scratched away by the friction of the rings. Thus a thin layer of beeswax will remain on the ring's surface to protect it. It protects the rings from all liquids such as rain or sweat.
I reenact the late XIIth century and early XIIIth century in France so I've got a lot of maille to wear and clean haha but with this technique I don't have to clean it that often. For example, for the winter period (where reenactment events are dead) I can just put away the hauberk greased with the famous wax and it won't rust at all. Then, I can use it all summer without having to clean it.
Nice video and interesting topic.
cheers.
I was thinking that beeswax or gun wax would be better then oil myself, as they tend to last longer.
I used to wear a mail Collar in my 20's when going to the local "punk" club, it was the hangout for most of the subcultures in the city, and some of them would bite you neck. and a mail collar helped with that.
Very nice video.
6x1mm flat and round rings are definitely historically correct. Although 8x1.5mm rings also are historically correct. So you can't go wrong with either of them.
It always depends on what you want to do with it. If it's full contact, you really should not use mass produces mail or at least you should check every single ring and rivet and change out dubious ones. If you are in for living history and reenactment, Indian made mail is Imho, absolutely OK. Even for light training and sparring, it's absolutely great. Keep in mind that a mail haubark with 6mm rings still costs almost 1000€ for the larger ones and they are not fitted to your body. That's quite an investment.
If it's hand made in Europe by a real sarwürker (mail smith), you will get broke buying one. Alternatively, you have to make it yourself if you do have the time.
Btw. Making it by yourself isn't that complicated, because there are great books and guides on how to custom fit mail. Tongs, rings and rivets can be brought online or even made at home. Home made rings also come with the advantage that you can adjust the gauge to your needs (collars etc).
If your budget is slim and you "just" want to go for living history, light reenactment and sparring/training, go for 8mm and adjust it to your body. Remember.. Not every man-at-arms in the middle ages had a master crafted 6mm mail haubark.
How about riveted or arc welded titanium rings in a modern version to minimise maintenance? With a wear resistant moist wicking microfibre backing and cover to make it comfortable and discreet.
@@SonsOfLorgar titanium rings would off cause be super awesome.
But.
1. Very expensive. At least 5 times the cost and titanium rings are not readily available.
2. You can't not really make the rings by yourself, if you don't have the proper equipment. You would need titanium wire and titanium rivets. Puncturing and forging titanium is difficult.
You can buy titanium mail armor but it's really, really expensive. 5000€ plus. Next problem is that you can't really repair damaged mail by yourself, unless you can't get your hands on rings.
Historical mail actually was forge welded - at least half of rings. The solid ones. Mail was half riveted and half solid. The solid rings were either stamped out of sheets or forge welded. The other half was riveted. The didn't forge weld the other half, because it's basically not possible to do so. Forge welding needs high temperature and clean surfaces. In this context, it's not feasible to forge weld them.
If you want super strong Mail and don't care for 100% historical accuracy, buy welded armor.
Matt, you could always Wax it to prevent rust, take some paste wax and heat up the mail slightly just enough so the wax will melt enough to coat it and apply the wax then wipe off any excess. Then you don't have to worry about rusting as much. 👍👍
I think the Maille Standard is quite neglected piece of armor. In historical Czech sources known to me it's frequently mentioned to be part of townsfolk personal and collective armouries and I think I saw it also written to be part of mandatory set of arms & armour in villages (every farmstead was obliged to have such a set). Thanks for another good piece of content!
I enjoy these films about the little bits of armour you never really think of. Be interested in something on splint armour for limbs.
I noticed this piece in the recent House of the Dragon episode where the guard undresses. It seemed to be way more accurate than most media. Each piece had to be untied and he had the fabric under armour too.
This makes me think of Pietro Monte's comments that mail in this area should be doubled: "The helmet or cassis or galea should be spacious and reduce upwards, and the iron should not touch the top of the head, and the lorica which comes through the edge of the galea should be doubled. For often a single one, even if it is strong, is quickly penetrated, especially in the back part, which, when the man leans down, is left unarmed between the neck and the rear part, so that in that place one must provide for long and doubled mail.
"
It would be even better if anybody of the time had written down what doubled meant.
I just want to say I really appreciate what you do. You’re keeping history itself alive.
The T-shirt + maille standard combination actually looks really good on you. We should bring them back into fashion.
In the 18th and 19th centuries enlisted soldiers wore leather neck stocks. Ostensibly those were to protect the neck like this but in reality it seems to have just been a uniform thing, and to "improve posture" by making the head sit in a certain position.
Interestingly unlike these mail collars, neck stocks seem to have directly contributed to death rather than prevent it, by litterally choking men to death and restricting blood flow, usually in hot climates (i.e. India).
This is such an important, common-sense piece of armor. I find that many who are unacquainted with the subject are ignorant of its existence, yet its importance is immediately obvious to them.
I've recently been trying to find good pics of the inside of renaissance gorgets, in particular the articulated lames that cover the throat. (If this has a more specific name, I am unfamiliar with it.) I'm just curious about the construction, how it maintains its form, etc...
It's been challenging to find many great sources for 16th Century armor. There's no "Matt Easton" of 16C armor out there offering great content. 😉 If there is, I've yet to discover their content.
EDIT: I immediately found something, seconds after typing this, that essentially answered my questions regarding construction. 😆 Still, I'm eager to hear and read whatever else might be out there.
Too many "documentaries" and fantasy films and games ignore this unfortunately.
yep... just a plain breastplate and helmet over a t-shirt. it's hilarious how often you see it once you start noticing it
If (when?) you make a video on bevors, can you also talk about what distinguishes them from gorgets and falling buffes? Thanks! Great video as always!
So that's why so much mail has a yellow edge. It's brass! That makes so much sense! The edge rings wouldn't have as many other rings to rub against, so you make those ones out of a material that doesn't rust!
I like the contrast of you wearing a maille collar over a t-shirt of a character who should really wear something similar under his helmet.
The maille standard has become an essential part of many of my models for my fantasy designs and have had versions over and under cuirass.
I supposed this is one of the first pieces of armour a soldier would try to get if they already have a gambeson and a helmet. That could lead to an interesting situation with a fully armour soldier but the outfit consists of pits and pieces aquired over time. The wealwealthy knight may have the entire outfit made for him at one go but the commoner footman are unlikely to be able to do that, so it is a mix of pieces.
Same goes for HEMA, not from mail but it's the same principal. I put it on even on light sparring without the mask, it usually comes along with the safety goggles. Doesn't restrict you and protects you from most possible serious damages.
Matt, would be interesting to see you do an overview of the history of the gorget, how they transition from full neck protection in the middle ages to eventually just an ornamental/symbolic military piece by the 18th century.
Particularly interested in that transitional period. I swear some of the examples I've seen in pictures (that lost the neck collar part) just look like a great tool for redirecting any thrust to your upper chest into your now fully exposed neck.
I am also interested in this, as well as the US Marines adding leather to their collar to protect the neck from being cut. The various styles of neck protection over several hundred years is interesting.,
As you say Matt, the maille standard worn today against knife crime! And back in medieval times against knife crime too, probably more than the battlefield. i.e travelling merchants,rich people town guards probably villain's and outlaws too...
Contrast that against modern governments frowning upon modern armor. Smh. 🤔
Your photo as a black 🖤 knight at 3:13 just has it's outstanding charisma with its vibe
Good point. A neck needs protection for it is a very vulnerable piece of anatomy. I've seen my share of neck wounds in my time on the job in EMS already.
Thank you for being so thorough about your subject matter and free with your knowledge. You're an excellent presenter as well. Cheers!
Love the Boba Fett shirt! Especially love it for any video on armor since armor is so important to the Mandalorian culture. Nice touch 🍻
I really enjoy the discussions around the importance and function of individual component pieces of armor. It really helps to establish context for the evolution and development of different styles of armor over the course of history. Thanks!
Gotta get these back into fashion.
Thank you Matt for making this happen !
I am literally working on building my standard right this minute and I'm terrified Matt will tell me some critical detail I completely missed lol
Edit: Ok so not a fan of padding, good to know! I was procrastinating making that decision. Even with Indian rings, a 6 in 1 neck has been a great improvement so far. It stands so well I was really doubting the need for a stiff lining.
You're out here working on neck armor and probably collecting sweet melee weaponry too...meanwhile I have a nice guns and ammo collection but I think I'm woefully unprepared for the zombie apocalypse. (Zombies hate armor, I need to diversify)
I often wonder, how many men had to get the chop before some smart boffin came up with these innovations? The first guys with helmets must have carved an absolute swathe until the idea caught on generally.
I would definitely say that early arms races would have felt absolutely insane to the people involved.
Brilliant. Don’t you know he was the butt of jokes till that battle you referred to where he carved swathes and saved the day.
In the case of the standard, probably not long. While I don't know for certain, but I suspect that the standard came from the coif and the aventail that you'd find attached to the bottom of certain styles of helmets like the bascinet.
@@DangerMouse62 "Oy, lookit this wanker wi' the bloody cookin' pot on 'is noggin! Ye gonna heat us up some soup once the fightin's done, mate?" 😁
Probably not as many as you’d think. Greek, Roman, and Scandinavians never used them despite knowing and using maile. Something changed and it became obvious that you needed something like this.
It is all in the details. Good one.
Love the armor videos in general, looking forward to more of them
There are historical accounts and illustrations of squires putting mail into a small barrel and rolling it to clean the mail. There is some suggestions they added sand as well.
When planning and prepping my harness, I decided on a middle ground when it comes to padding beneath the standard, having a separate fabric/leather gorget around the throat then overlaying the mail standard. It's a lot of buckles etc but it's a movable and easy to clean design (though I have no idea if it was done very much historically). Maybe on the warm side but all armour is really, ideally I'd like to upgrade to a medium length wrap around steel gorget to cover the base and back of the neck, an extra stop rib can't hurt.
This is just Matt bragging that he has armor!
Love your channel.
Great video! Thom Richardson's "Tower Armoury in the 14th Century" also has some good info on both these and a number of other things.
I think it’s kinda humorous that in Lindybeige’s most recent video he was working on adjusting a standard he’d gotten.
I can't recall where I read this, but I remember reading maille was cleaned in period by tumbling it in a barrel with oily sand.
Hey Matt, do a video on the Norwegian Kings Mirror, a pretty cool source on 13th century weapons, armor, siege, training and other related stuff.
Thanks for the video
Matt Easton in an iron collar.
Oh my...😳
This is great stuff!
Thank you Matt. Always a pleasure! I was wondering if you ever might make a video focusing on suspension methods; buttons, straps, sliding rivets, turn-pins, lacing et cetera? I'm sure there is a lot to learn for all of us.
I'm working on a standard of my own as of writing this comment. I make the rings. One thing I did notice is the importance of turning the rings so that the rivets are facing outwards. With a tight weave you will save yourself a lot of work if you keep this in mind. The upper part of the standard I make of 2 millimeter rings under that there will be a few rows of only slighter smaller rings but with thinner 1.5mm wire. The 'mantle' will also be 2mm wire methinks but in a looser weave with wider rings.
Hey Matt, great content as always thank you! As you are asking for suggestions: Could you please make a video about that peculiar object on the wall behind you, on the very left of the frame next to the shield? You know, this brown wooden(?) paddle shaped thing? I've seen this in a couple of your videos now and I'm racking my brain what on earth this is and how it's used. Take care and greetings from Cologne :)
Are your referring to the patu?
it's amazing how tight those rings are on the museum examples
Another excellent video for those just getting started. Aside from plate would a maile standard be appropriate with other types of armor like a brigandine or gambeson based system? Your video "Brigandines & common soldiers' armor of the 15th century" does not mention a maile standard but it looks like it would fit right into that type of system.
A really good video, watched it with great interest. By the way, love the shirt you are wearing. His dad sadly very well demonstrated what can happen when you don't wear a standard (albeit his might have been made of armorweave - Mandalorian mail fabric).
I wish I was out there in England to work on my more modern body armor, I've been doing lots of research over the last few weeks or months. It can be harder to work on a 5mm steel, narrow truncated cylinder triangle tipped, or outer polycarbonate plastic shield with not having as many people interested in listening, or smithing and machining armor by myself, but I'm getting around to getting over to the smithy soon enough.
With a carbon nanotube x handle, and viscoelastic foam/gel forearm mold. Probably want about at least 4mm thick aluminum 7075, at about .9 lbs. for a 6x6, to stop pistols, or 5mm steel for alot of rifles. Should be interesting with ballistic testing and future metal scale over the metal plates for ballistic waves with testing though.
I think its interesting that in in the 13th and 14th century we see presumably in addition to the maile standard we sometimes see the 'bishop's mantle' essentially a similar item that is worn outside the chest armour and it comes down over the shoulders, sometimes itself in conjunction with a bascinet(so either they have 3 layers of maile or are wearing no standard?). I have also seen what seems to be depictions of scale mantles and standards. I would presume that if these were indeed historical they might more likely be an attempt to better reinforce the throat protection and compliment a maile standard underneath, it is around the same time we see what seems to be experimentation with neck defences(including what seems to be the unholy crossing of a great helm's barber(reinforcement plate riveted across the lower part of the helm to provide 2 layers of armour to the lower face) and a bevor(although i have only seen this depicted once in a single source, so its good to be skeptical).
Gorget...
gohrjay phonetically.
I wore a separate soft leather collar under my gorget for comfort, also made it look even cooler.
Suggestion for future video: Make a video on every part of plate -armour and your thoughts on it.
2:04 Historically very correct. Most armour was worn by someone else than the original owner.
I'd love to see a video on the gorget to go with this video.
Hey Matt a video on the sarissa would be cool.
I'd think a cloth scarf would do a good job under the standard, and would be easy to dry after use.
But it would be extremely hot
Great video! There are any any surviving source from the 14th and 15th century about armour maintenance?
Great content thank you! Can you make a video talking about armour blueing or blackening? They look cool but what do we know about who was doing it, how and why and how prominent it was throughout the middle ages?
i could still use one of those in everyday use in my country
Mail armour is still used in various applications, for example the German police have been pictured using it against a knife wielder, and it is widely used by butchers and fish processors, as well as shark handlers.
@@scholagladiatoria I saw an SEK (German swat) member at my workplace wearing a full suit of mail armor when we had a madman with an axe running around our campus a few years ago. I can absolutely confirm it.
I use a maille standard for buhurt, however Ive stitched a hidden plate under the maille at the throat.
In 1853 there was an assasination attempt to kill emperor Franz - Josef of Austria. The assasin tried to stab the emperor into throat, but the knife glanced away from rather stiff uniform collar.
reminds me a lot of the hockey gear you have to wear as an amateur
I've been slowly converting my Buhurt armor into a more historical type. I still do buhurt with it, despite it not really being that advantagous for it, with a sallet+bevor offering very poor visibility.
Regarding the maille standard, I taylored one for myself from a indian made one. I wear mine with the buckles to the front, partly to minimize the choking effect of the rigid leather I used on the inside, but also I've attached extra steel plates to the neck side because buhurt-rules require that. Idk if there are surviving examples of wearing a standard that way, but at least with a bevor the buckles are hidden anyway.
Very interesting. Thank you!
Do you have any information about the Spanish morion helmet?
Since childhood, I would like to know why Morion has such a peculiar shapes. What were his curved brim supposed to protect against?
Was it depend on peculiarities of tactics in the 17th century and most common types of injury?
It kinda bothers me that this standard, but in fact some apparently period ones in museum, honestly seem quite short - I mean, ideally I would like this thing to run up to my jaw, neck is squishy all the way.
Though I guess it may be less comfortable, so one could use shorter standard instead, and just tuck one's chin, and lower one's neck a bit.
And of course, we have some of those "balaclava" standards/bevor, that cover your jaw, mouth or even nose too.
Thank you for your videos. I enjoy and am informed by them. As an aside, I do SCA and we have called that a gorget is that wrong?
Think I know who you were referring to when you said their standard is very important for the comfort of their armor. Poor lloyd and his oddly shaped collarbones
Few nice points there, as always. But I have to say that since I just started putting together some riveted mail for myself, the one errant ring about 4 rings left off the end of the mike has been bothering me a ton, and feels like it is missing a connection to an adjacent one! Argh! :D Since you touched on it, I wonder if you would consider doing a video on civillian/nonprofessional combatant (say, borrowing from fantasy, an adventurer of sorts, or traveller expecting trouble) armour, concealed or otherwise. I have recently heard of mail vests/short shirts being used by civillians in the renaissance, but cannot find sources. Further on I wonder how neck protection was done in earlier periods, be it early medieval or even migration period. I am not aware of even just mentions of neck defenses in those times, save the aventails of helmets - though often I see those opened at the front, and mail shirts seem to have just had a neck opening. I wonder if this was solved with just a few wraps of a scarf.
10/10 tumbnail
game of thonres/house of the dragon costume department is absolutely reeling after this video was posted
There are modern ones especially for special police forces. Most modern armour is quite vulnerable to knife attacks as it covers only a very small area compared to earlier armour and even a ballistic vest is only protected against stabs where ceramic or metal plates are inserted...
Butchers also wear sometimes gloves and ,Schürzen' ( don' t know english word) of mail to be protected when cutting dead annimals into pieces vor cut away the mest from the bones. German academic fencers have replaced leather protection gear with ,Kevlar jacket' and a mail shirt over it.
Kentucky Ballistics needs one of these. I guess the thumb works as well.
Any thoughts about the bishop's mantle?
Need a comparison of standards vs. gorgets. Also interested in how to partner up gorgets with pauldrons: how big can you go before they impede each other, and which is more important to go big with?
can you make a video about the kettle helm, i know its a basic helmet would it would be interesting
Ever thought about joining one of those jousting competitions? I don't remember the name but i have seen some vids of people doing in proper tournament reenactments.
Great timing, I’m halfway through building my standard right now. Some work still left on the mantle, the collar is done. Cheapo commercial Indian rings, but what can you do.
Actually, question for you; your standard is a fairly good example of the high and tight 15th century style. Does your arming garment have any sort of raised collar? If so, how do they interface, does it get in the way at all?
If only Jango fett had one of those.
These showed up quite a bit in the Americas because European commanders would gift one to allied Indian war chiefs as a sign of trust. It’s a gift that really shows you are willing to put your neck on the line for your ally.
Hi Matt, others may have done this but would you correlate practical historic armor with armor class for trpgs? Like, "This bits of armour or even full armour suit is Heavy Armour? And these bits would be Light Armour and this and this would be great protection but not practical for bouncing around a dungeon or abandoned evil temple"?
Remember Achilles and Siegfried: No armour can allways save your life.
Is something like a brigandine with mail or a thick gambeson and mail, basically any multi-layer set of armor, hotter and more restrictive to fight in than a properly made harness with just a bit of mail and an arming doublet?
I WANT TO WEAR ONE AND FEEL INVINCIBLE
we need more armour videos, european as well as asian ones. Like mirror armour and stuff like that. Also we need a diablo 2 one
Are there examples of plates or boiled leather under the mail at the collar?
I would want to have at least some lining personally. My throat is much less abrasion resistant than iron/steel rings.
I'm enjoying your videos! The historical stuff is the best. Not so much the rubbish about self defence etc. If you need a sword for self defence your doing something wrong.
Also protects the back of your neck (spine) from blows from the rear.
see 9:35 and 10:18 of the knight of hope for examples
I've been hit in the throat lots of times and I don't like wearing a bever so I always wear either a full coif or the collar but I still find mail uncomfortable, I feel like I'm always catching my hair or beard in the links
I agree… very very important, my coif is hood style so it covers but my armor is a couple hundred years earlier than yours sir
Matt, would this take the place of a gorget? Which would work better?
I am writing this only about 1/3 into the video, so pardon me if it gets covered later in the video, but when did the standard become...standard?
I am guessing probably 14th century as plate defenses came about, paired with better helmets which made a coif unnecessary.
I think prior to plate becoming common, a coif would have served the same purpose, but what about before the coif came to prominence? If you look at 8th, 9th, 10th century, before the coif came to prominence, a standard would have been a nice addition to a mail coat, but we don't really see them depicted.
Just a question of curiosity.
If one wears a full steel gorget would a maille standard still be expected? I'm building a pourpoint gambeson with a high and thick collar for a modified maximillian kit.
Going to the toilet is never as fun as it is with Matt.
Any evidence of rigid partial collar under the maille standard to prevent crushing of the throat and to provide more protection to the front of the throat?
Do you have any recommendations for someone that would make one of these from all brass?
You can also make the standard six in one
As far as cleaning armour goes I remember reading somewhere that it was standard on campaign to use a barrel half filled with sand or other coarse materials and rolled around ti scrub the armour? I may be wrong if anyone else knows of this please let me know.
You could totally drive in period.
Of course you would not be in modern automobile, but a coach, buggy, wagon, or a cart. The word “car,” is considered to have, probable, etymological origins, tracing all the way back to chariots.
Do you have a merchant recommendation for arming doublets?
I recommend tailor made, and mine is from Robert Taillour, but you can get a pretty good 'off the shelf' one from Historical Enterprises.