Power Drawbar For The Milling Machine - Power(less) Drawbar
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- G'day everyone,
In this video I will be showing you my take on a manually operated power drawbar. An automated drawbar will make tool changes much faster and easier for me. Most of the common designs call for the use of an air compressor, but my air compressor probably isn't up to the task, so I will need an alternative. I will be taking inspiration from Edward E, and making a mechanism based on two second class levers to act as my power drawbar.
Milling machine quick too changer.
0:00 - Intro
2:10 - Design Outline
2:54 - Materials For The Project
4:02 - Making The Lower Lever
5:19 - Making The Bearing Pillars
7:15 - Machining The Base Plate
8:20 - Making The Top Hat and Drawbar
10:41 - Making The Top Lever
13:12 - Compression Pin
13:52 - Top Hat Slide
15:33 - Testing The Power Drawbar
#machining #millingmachine #powerdrawbar - Věda a technologie
This man will do anything to avoid getting a bandsaw 🤣
His shop is tiny he shows it in one of his videos
Excellent video! Thank you for sharing.
There are hydraulic cylinders used in car repair. Small one is 50mm high, and with hand pump generates pressure measured in tons. Travel is around 10mm. I am planning to use one o these as power component, with foot operated pump for hands free operation.
Travel is 100mm
@@xyzspec82 Nope, this is not hydraulic jack used to lift car. This is small tool used to push bent parts. Travel is very limited, but the whole tool is only 50mm.
@@jakubkopec9313 oh sorry, now I got it 😅
Porta power
I'd be curious to see how this works
yeah, i finally got my cnc mill yesterday, and did my first wood and alu testparts and its really cool to finally be able to replicate some of your (or others) projects
What did you get? I'd love a mill for the same reasons but I think I prefer the CNC route as I run a small production operation and I want more time with my hands free!
Given there's such a short travel required to release the grip on tooling, would a simple cam on a lever be feasible? Regardless, it's another great bit of home machining there.
Some more great work there again, well done. From experience I know that with some projects a large amount of time is spent in the design work. Looks like you spent a lot of time on the design work here, and the mechanism turned out great and functions well. Thanks for sharing.
Muito bom ! Parabéns.
Old parts are always great new cleaned parts 👍
Nice bit of work, especially reusing the aluminium from the unfortunate dust collector.
Regarding the possibly slightly sloppy bearing fit you mentioned: I've heard that for lighter duty loads you can rough up/disturb the inside of the bore the bearing is to fit into with a punch, this has the effect of reducing the diameter, and allowing a bearing to fit more snugly.
And a wooden handle on the end of the arm would really make the whole thing pop, while also lengthening it for more torque. Though that would increase the amount you need to pull to work the drawbar...
Great Work again, Thanks for Showing👍
Really nice solution.
Thanks for that.
A pull cord attached to the end of the handle might be an improvement so you don't have to reach up so high. Nice build.
One! More! Lever!!!
very nice!
Man power drawbar👍
Nice job, sir.
Быструю смену инструмента обеспечивает?
А ,это главное .
Идея отличная .
Лайк поставил
Good work yet again. We shared this video on our homemade tools forum this week 😎
Drawbars in large CNC mills use this sort of arrangement to hold tools. BT30, BT40, CAT40, etc all use the Belleville washer arrangement to retain tools and release them quickly. It is a simple system that can easily withstand heavy cutting forces.
Really love the voice over
Great job man !
Thank you very much for your great work with inspiration and motivation. You could choose a so called "knee lever" design to realize a sufficient translation ratio with fewer parts.
The Emco PC55/F1 cnc mill has a really elegant example of a manual drawbar release for their BT30 spindle. Grabcad has a really accurate model. They use an excentric cam to create the mechanical advantage. I've been planning to reproduce this component for my build as the orginal spindle is extremely hard to find.
Could you please share a link to the crabcad model? I cannot find it there :)
Very impressive sir .. I am new to machining and have learned a lot from you.. please continue to post videos … so far I have learned to make a fly cutter watching your video , a mill vice speed wheel , and I have gained some knowledge as well from watching your videos . Thanks again .
cheers, glad you enjoy them
It’s not a permanent solution to the issue, nor is it a complete failure. It’s just another turn on the road to the final, let’s say “situation” 🤔 🤷🏼♂️ I think it works 🙌🏻
Can’t wait to see the next version you consider, and the next project!
Good call on recycling the aluminium from the old project - I am considering buying a furnace similar to that unit you bought, simply to be able to make aluminium bar stock to feed the mill and the lathe, the price of aluminium billets is eye watering, and old mag rims are not to expensive or hard to get if you keep an ear to the ground!
just saw this so a late response, but I cast a fair bit of stuff from alloy wheels, most of them are A357, and after casting they are really gummy to machine, if you heat treat at 150C for 2 or 3 hours, followed by a water quench, it machines really nicely.
Gday, overall it works quite well and it’ll be interesting to see how it holds up in heavier cuts in steel, great job as always mate and thanks for sharing, cheers
There is only one issue I can see using the Belleville Washers and that is , If you don't install a tool into the collet it will over compress it and most likely bend it. I would strongly recommend you add some sort of lock in the down position for the handle just in case you don't have a tool to hand or drop it? You can then lock it open and grab or adjust the tool you are using. Think Hand brake handle from a car type of lock. The Morse taper is a lot shallower than a BT style taper or any of the standard dedicated milling tapers. It really is only made for driving rotationally and very little side load. There is also the added issue of the diameter differences of the tooling. Belleville Washers give a lot of force differential over a small amount of travel. Good for precision bad for any variance. For a mill with that type of clamping taper a wound spring would be more in order as it would have a smaller change in force over a longer distance of travel. A decent Valve spring ot of an engine would be ideal. Belleville Washers are used in machine tools and will hang in there for years but those are BT , CAT or HSK tapers and work to a very fine tolerance height wise for the pull studs.
Regardless you have made it work and it has solved your problem. So nothing wrong with that.
Cheer's
yeah, that is one this I saw mentioned in another video, not to have nothing in the collet. For what its worth, ive seen people use these belleville spring set ups in many other morse taper mills without issue. If I run into any, I will have to post an update about it. cheers
Really hope this works for you. Great job
The bigest drawback of your solution is the fact that all that release force you need to apply for a tool change is applied to your precios AC bearing in the spindle. Pinch type release mechanism is the one to use. Anyway very good and informative video. Thanks!
No, the locking plate the I push in and out is designed to take all of the downwards force to save the bearings
Cool build. The primary lever is essentially a cam and could be simplified into an arm with an eccentric of the same length as the pusher bolt/stud or a cam with limit switches if you’re inclined to automate it. I’ve been thinking about small CNC tool changers lately and this was right in line with that kind of project.
Yeah sure, but this way takeaway gives a bit of adjustment. Taking into account the human side of me making it and it not being 100 percent to the drawing :)
Come on Artisan. Surely with the skills you currently have, making a power hacksaw, even a small one that uses standard blades, should be a walk in the park!
I love seeing the upgrades u come up with and more times than not just like all of us money is a main factor ....can I suggest u start a members page or a patreon account to help with projects I think alot of people would donate
Using Belleville washers in opposed directions makes the spring softer, if you stack them the same direction (nested) makes for a much stiffer spring with the bonus that you don't need as many..
Nested also reduces how far the stack can compress, ie not enough to disengage the taper
CNC drawbars often use Belleville washers in stacks of three opposing each other to get the best combination of pressure and travel.
yes but this configuration provides enough force on the tool to work
nice we just talked about this a+
Hoi nice work a bit heavy for the job but it works , to get more clamping power the springwassers should be two on two or even 3 by 3 stacked that gives double spring strengt, stacking more one by one gives a slightly softer spring. 6 (9) washers will be sufficient for the travel and gives you a lot of springforce. The stack you use wil give slipping destroying the tools and spindle, try the spring with fasting the drawbar using the normal effort, and you will see how weak your spring realy is. succes Jos
That is an amazing amount of planning and work. I love watching the thought process of development.
Here is some thing to think about; Couldn't you use a small arbor press bolted to the top for simplicity?
I really like your videos, and they have inspired me to make things again. Thank you!
I got to tell you though... you're killing me - watching you saw all of your metals by hand. Get a chinese 4x6 bandsaw, mate. Then you'll have all kinds of new project videos modifying it!!
Since this double lever requires not that much power, perhaps it could be driven by a motor or some (weak) hydraulic system. Then you could use a foot switch.
Here in the States we use a Butterfly style impact guns that is mounted in a frame on push springs on each side that a lever is used to pull down the entire frame unit to make contact with the draw bar nut..it will have a lever mechanism to choose between tighten / loosening then just let go of the lever to allow the unit to spring up on captive rods the push springs are on etc..the Butterfly impact gun is very compact and rather weak with nearly no real use besides this use..it uses a Butterfly or dead mans lever on the side to operate it etc..
intente montar ese sistema en una fresdora con MT4 y al aflojar la barra el cono queda bloqueado y no desbloquea
Cool
My friend, you really need to budget for a bandsaw. A little 5 X 6 horizontal/vertical bandsaw is worth it’s weight in gold, is relatively inexpensive, and is the most useful tool in my shop after the mill and lathe.
Amazing how little travel there is on the drawbar itself. I think parts from this project could be useful for someone with an air cylinder with either too little power and or to much travel. I picture a cylinder laying down horizontal vs vertical and pushing on a backwards L with the vertical part of L super long to accommodate a longer travel air cylinder which seems to be more common then short fat cylinders. The cylinder I have in mind came from a junk yard. I'm sure a 2 stage lever could also be used.
Well go make it and post a video! This is a “do it” channel, not a “picture it” dreamers channel. You probably don’t even have a mill, you just ‘picture it’ in your car port.
Does the pin that connects the levers and puts downward pressure on the drawbar rotate? I ask because if it doesn't turn, you could put a grub screw in the centre of the pin lined up with the drawbar to make fine adjustments to the downward pressure. Even though It sucks it took so long, I do appreciate you mentioned how long it took, as many makers make a task look easy and quick when it is far from reality.
Nicely done, nearly there just needs some fine tuning. I thought Sieg SX2.7s came with a captive drawbar just like the SX3 I have, it's the cylinder that screws on top which the drawbar head pushes against. I've seen Edward's design but wasn't confident of getting the correct preload on the Belville washers.
cheers, 2.7l comes with that cap on the top which isnt a captive drawbar in the same vein as the precision matthews mills are. I tried to use that as a captive drawbar and it ended up pushing the quill down, even with it locked. Edwards design was a bugger to get working correct, definitely not worth the hassle, but I only realized that hours into this project :)
@@artisanmakes I use the a hollow tube as a lever to really tighten the quill lock. If it's slipping even with that then best option is to tappy tap. I've been thinking about rebuilding the quill lock similar to what Stefan Gotteswinter did for his Optimum mill, one for this summer perhaps when I can get to the shed more. Perhaps a quill stop and lock combo would be even better.
just if anybody is interested, an air cylinder that is capable of 2900N cost 70 USD in aliexpress
Have you considered trimming down the MT collet in your mill spindle? That would be a free rigidity upgrade
I’ve trimmed down a mt3 collet to account for this same hangout. However the mt collet I used didn’t have enough depth to allow full engagement for my 3/4 tts type collet. Not a lot of free depth in the mt3 taper to give full insertion of these tts style holders. Whilst I haven’t measured the depth of the mt3 bore in the spindle of my sx2 Sieg seems they could have bored the mt3 taper a little deeper in the spindle
seeing your design, i see how i'd make one. a fair deal different, maybe if you do a second, some day, you'll ask for suggestions. it seems you're not satisfied with it, maybe... a small air cylinder, longer, levered, it'd take about the same amount of air, but over a longer time, so your compressor might handle it. perhaps a foot lever operated motorcycle brake cylinder for hydraulic operation, it'd take almost no changes to the current set up.
I was thinking how to cut the 20mm thick Aluminum plate over the weekend.
I was actually thinking of the same thing i was planning on using an electric linear actuator because im not ready to add a permanent air compressor to my shop
As long as it it powerful enough to compress the springs I dont see why not
⭐🙂👍
That roughing end mill looked a bit course for the material you were cutting. More suited for softer metals??
what about a where the force comes from an offset... like vise grips... or cams... I've seen those used in sheet metal breaks and the like for shaping metal... just an idea... fun times!
stacking the spring washer alternating them, increases the travel but not the force. stacking them all in the same direction (nesting) increases the force but keeps the travel small. Just thought to clarify as you mention increasing the force but show alternating washers.
Yeah, ultimately did t need to alternate them
What force are your washers rated at? The way you have them stacked, you aren't increasing the force, so you are only getting the force of 1 washer pulling on the drawbar. Stacking like you did only increases the distance they can compress. You would need to nest them the same direction (not flipping every other) to increase force.
I can’t remember off the top of my head but it is enough. Yes the stacking doesn’t increase the force but what I needed was the distance increased
I never used this system. In Germany, we used to use self locking tapered heads which come off by giving them a sideways whack with a piece of wood or rubber hammer.
And as I think about it, there were some mills with a sort of drawbar which were losely inserted from the top and could be whacked from above.
very interesting, I have not encountered this method before
Powerless drawbar. Hmmm, new thought.
What did you mean at 9:17 - 9:30?
Has the large extra mass above the mill affected the stability or more likely, the vibrations?
9:17 - 9:30ish explanation?? Please 🤷🏻♂️
I got an idea for your next project. A power hacksaw! I'm amazed at how much hand sawing you do, I'd go insane. I had to hand cut a 2" dia piece of A26 solid bar a few weeks ago and my arms were dead 😥
The hacksawing is a channel meme at this point! Long may it continue!
The accent can't help but draw unfavorable comparisons to Clickspring mate 😂 only taking the p, keep up the great vids
That'll teach me for living on the same continent as him. haha cheers
An airpot from air brakes on a semi truck or trailer would probably work that lever for you.
I suggest switching to sk30 on the sieg you can get the replacement at paulimot and they are crazy good. It’s way faster to change the tool.
that would require a new spindle with that taper no?
I already contacted them, no bueno. They won't sell a replacement spindle.
@@HM-Projects Strange i suspect you didn’t ask for the right thing then i got mine basically immediately..
Sehr geehrter Herr Redacted,
Vielen Dank für Ihre Rückmeldung.
Der Umbausatz ist sofort lieferbar.
Die Lieferzeit nach Österreich beträgt 2-4 Werktage.
Wenn Sie den Umbausatz bestellen möchten, können Sie mir gerne kurz per Email Bescheid geben.
Wir lassen Ihnen dann eine Auftragsbestätigung zukommen. Auf dieser sind die Kontodaten hinterlegt.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind Regards
Mr. Siegers vom paulimot-Support
@@platin2148 how much did it cost and was it for Sieg SX3 or SX2.7 ? Cheers
what did you use to clean the cosmoline off the sieg machines when first arrived and what do you use after that to keep machine from rusting
i would love a video on maintenance on both the mill and lathe
WD-40 works great as a cleaner and then use a light oil coat for corrosion protection.
@@JETHO321 does it matter what sort of oil
@@theancientones3755 any oil at the very least, something like LPS2 works better as it actively prevents rusting. Lanolin is better for longer term storage, almost as good as cosmoline but easier to wipe off.
@@HM-Projects thank you for the help
Kerosine or WD40 to take the cosmoline off and i use a product called lanotec to stop rusting but i have seen all sorts of stuff used, even motor oil will do in a pinch .
This device is great. But I would make it from sheet metal and profile pipe by welding.
For sure that was the original plan, I didn't think alu would hold up, but Edward Es video convinced me otherwise, Cheers
Hello, I love your video and I watching them for a long time. Btw I'm curious, what is your accent ? It seems a bit australian to my french ears but I don't think you are coming from here.
He is from Australia.
@@an2thea514 Ok thanks 👍
spot on
Perhaps I'm wrong, but this type of fast tool changing is a "bicycle invention". There is a much more effective and cheaper way to do this by pneumatic or hydraulic. Pneumatic is definitely better solution. It will be very easy to operate by this tool (for example use feet to lock/unlock tool). Anyway you have lathe machine, and can to make your own pneumatic cylinder. Try to search VotyanCGI channel. He make his own cylinder by using a lathe. Mainly, my opinion based onnyour time which you spend on this project. 7 months is a REALY a lot.
Like I said in the video, I can't really recommend this type of set up to anyone. I was determined to see it through but I was happy that I got it working
@@artisanmakes thank you for your reply. By the way, do you make upgrade of your lathe machine and milling machine? Becsuse i work with both, and i can to guarantee, if you make all needed upgrades, you will get 5 times more faster and effective work.
Wait just one minute there my man! You didn't use a hacksaw on that aluminium. I feel very ripped off XD XD
what is the programme used at 2:29?
solidworks
Is it a problem to leave the spindle empty? I can imagine that it might be possible to crush the collet? (though it might well close down the slots while still in the elastic area, making this not a concern)
One advantage of a pneumatic design is that it is can be set to "pinch" the spindle, so that it pulls up on the top-hat and down on the bar. I did this with a specially made cylinder that has a small amount of vertical float in the mounting. It's been pretty reliable for about 12 years. (It was also apparently filmed with a potato back then so I won't give a link)
One way to make up for an inadequate compressor is to use a tandem cylinder design. I think that one of the ones you showed was a stack of three. I eventually went that route with mine, making a double-stack cylinder. This video shows the design and assembly, but none of the manufacture: czcams.com/video/mZWQvq-X7DQ/video.html
yes, morse taper collets shouldn't be done up without it being able to clamp onto anything, this will be something that I need to avoid doing. Cheers
G'day Andy. Good point. Can you explain your comment "...pinch the spindle...down on the bar..." I just can't picture it. Thanks in advance. Michael 🇦🇺
Did you buy solidworks or did you get it for free. If so, how?
Wanted to rewatch this video and saw it's been moths already?!!?
Anyways I wonder how it's holding up
It’s doing fine, but I am still trying to rework it to make it a bit simpler. Have had to remove it a few times to use my Morse taper tooling a bit
Another take on the lever draw bar. czcams.com/video/YhiMoQaLQvM/video.html
might be the way to go, honest I was expecting more force to be needed to release the drawbar, although my figures were coming from calculations done with R8 collets
@@artisanmakes yes reading lots of info about the force needed on the drawbar to prevent pullout is overwhelming. What I haven’t seen is a comparison of the force required on a mt3 spindle vs r8. Mt3 with the gentler taper maybe provides a slower slope and does need as much pull force to secure the collet. One for the mathematicians
Unless you already had the bearings the local bearing shop will sell you them way cheaper
I bought these a while back, couldnt tell you the price off the top of my head but I dont seem to recall them being particularly expensive
Больно сложно нагородил
All your manual hacksawing makes my arms burn lol Keep an eye out for a small band saw, should be able to get one pretty cheap if you have the room.
o7 so long 4-axis
"my air compressor really isn't up to the job"
bro that makes no sense.
all it depends on is the diameter of the cylinder. if your compressor does 100 psi and the cylinder is 2 inches in diameter, that's 314 lbs of force. if it's 4 inches in diameter that's 1257lbs - some cars don't weigh that much. and with only the inch or so of travel you need, even if you have a tiny ass compressor tank it still works.
Have you seen his compressor? What if its just an airbrush compressor
Also might not be reliable
@@TheTateyo have you seen him using an airbrush?
anyway those still do ~60 psi so again, would still work with an appropriately sized piston. (assuming the compressor had a tank, though a small one wouldn't be any harder or costlier to make than this hellish contraption).
@@Bigredkarl how do you come to that conclusion?
"power drawbar - powerless drawbar"
you need a band saw my friend
You really need to get yourself a metal cutting bandsaw.
7 months?????
Ahahahahhaa ok
does this mans realise his vice lacks a lot of rigidity, its gotta be way more rigid to produce better products and better quality surface finishes
buy a band saw
sorry dude, but your "upgrades" have almost all been complete wastes of time, money and material.
then why the hell did you watch the video. IDIOT
Most of them were perfectly good. Haters gonna hate, you do you no need to whinge.
Fair enough, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I hope you enjoy watching them get made
Slitting Saw > Hacksaw. I swear you still hacksaw your stuff just for rage-baiting commenters!