Is the ETNZ Two Boat Programme Legal?
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2023
- Have ETNZ found a loophole to conduct LEQ12 testing across multiple platforms? But have attempts to spread their parts quota undermined their whole programme? Will the AC40 Class Rule, which ETNZ are currently drafting, offer the team an opportunity to correct the situation?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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Who are you are you some sort of spy.
Yes, a spy of sorts: check out this video which explains more: czcams.com/video/zb5P20XfZXw/video.html
Seems like the real issue was allowing a test platform to be a class that had yet to be defined. Royal screw up by the challenger. They can't prevent improvements to the AC40 because that is important for the future of the sport and yet that gives them access to an unlimited set of changes in a cup cycle. Well played ETNZ.
that's pretty much it in a nutshell. What is ETNZ testing and what is AC40 development... it's all grey.
ahh that change of challenger... ;)
I love how well you explain things in so many of your videos. Written by lawyers. I had relied on my brother till I discovered your channel. Well done.
Cheers Brandon, I'm glad you found the channel
Great video Mozzy! Honestly, I asked myself the same question after I saw some of the videos and pictures from the AC channel and I wondered: “why are they the only one doing it?”
I still think that 2-boat testing would be a great complement to a computer testing campaign; maybe not so across all points of sail, but I imagine for all those circumstances difficult to model correctly (e.g. manoeuvres, transient, lift-off conditions, etc.).
Lastly, let’s not forget that nothing can beat real racing with a sparring partner for crew training.
Problem is the people who write the rules know they want to do it a certain way while the people who read the rules need to interpret them often in a different way.
Spilling the tea, I love some AC test drama!!
Thank you for the video- looking forward to the response from the teams
You and me both!
THANK YOU for another thought provoking video and analysis.
WOW! Defenders "making up the rules as they go along" there's a unique thought in the history of the Americas Cup
Thanks for the sail details as well.
I would like to build a twin skin mainsail for my boat and have planty ideas so everything helps
Sounds great! I will be following you
Ok. Questions for both You "Carbon Arne" & "Mozzy Sails"- Is it not True If Your Design/Build/Campaign can not acheive a Reliable/Consistent FttW, Faster than the Wind Apparent Wind Simpler and Safer Performance numbers; Why bother- All this Conjecture, Testing and Speculations is Not very Cost-Effective or Safely User-Friendly,The Price for This Designated/Dictated Game is very Expensive in All areas of future Application...If You are not "FailSafely" Able to attain 2.5 to 3.5 Times the Speed of The True Wind; All this Effort and Expense to just the same Direction that all the preceeding Campaigns Cycles have been "waltzing" Full-n-Bye" with $$$$$ "Special-Interest_Team-Advantage Rules"... Enough Said!!!! P.S. ? Why do the Nomanclature Definations refer to the Foiling Monohull as AC75's;by the numbers these Team Concepts are 68' to 69', Please make any and All corrections Made True, If I/We have miss something in the Exact Description & Rules Written with How to Play the Game.
I wasn't really surprised about them having 2 up and running together, nor do I have any complaints as much as it must be an advantage. Having said that ETNZ have built a legacy of constantly being ahead of the game. So I don't imagine them ever being on level or behind any team for the foreseeable future when it comes to development. Having great sailors is the icing on the cake.
Excellent find Mozzy!
thanks
The first part about being able to spread the quota across multiple hulls is exactly how I would expect it to work. Certainly they shouldn't get a new quota for each hull and if there isn't a limit on the number of hulls how else should it work?
This is the defender being the defender. All these rules need engineers with legal degrees. These guys are really starting to refine their systems.
Where is Dennis Connor and his lawyers when you need him?
Isn't AC all about developing through legal loopholes, constant lawsuits and outright cheating though? Occasionally a yacht race breaks out where they compete to see who cheats the best.
😂
The NYYC paved the way. Spot on.
It’s a soap opera with occasional sailing scenes.
Love the channel keep up the great work
thanks!
Really interesting. Great detective work.
Thank you!
Any difficulty in distinguishing in the footage of the ETNZ boats of what we are looking at? Usually by the time I can begin to determine what is going on the top of the sail is obscured and often with a high number of cuts in the edit, the usefulness of their recon videos where 2 boat testing, is reduced. Maybe a video talking about differences between the classes and the implementations on the water where teams have 2 boats could be a good formula for content.
great video as normal thanks!
however, what appear to be twists in fixed ends of the lines of your beautiful cascade blocks in the background are hurting my OCD :)
Unfortunately I'm not at all surprised that TNZ is 'testing' as they're writing rules for the 40's.
It'll be interesting to see the class rules finally published and what that means for all the rest of the AC40's.
Potentially smells pretty bad, doesn't it?
Kiwi here. Ever heard of Split Enz. " One step ahead of you ", cracking tune Mozzy
If there's rule contravention it's been ongoing for some time yet we hear crickets. Odd. Either NZ is operating in a regulations grey zone wherein it has some wiggle room without repercussion, or the other teams are turning a blind eye for some derived mutual benefit.
I think this will deserve a good follow up video now that it’s been several Martin zone since it’s been originally posted
It comes down to how you define modification and hull. Looks like some if not most of the mounting material in the cockpit is some sort of Velcro and taking instruments on or off wouldn't be defined as "modifying" the hull otherwise you couldn't change damaged or broken screens or gauges because that would be seen as modifying the hull and a team having a capsize wouldn't be able to continue if they had something as little as a broken screen or control equipment.
Regarding AC40 design evolution; it is probably fine if they have been doing this while in transparent consultation with the other teams. Or, if all of these modifications are bundled into a design upgrade package that is released to all teams.
On the other hand, yes, there must inherently be an advantage to have been doing development work on the AC40 - that will be directly translatable into LEQ development also. Yes, everyone will ultimately be the beneficiaries of this development work (and the AC40's will be a better, more reliable, coherent design) but the Kiwis will also be that much further ahead down the track than everyone else.
The other thing will be... having an AC70, plus an AC40, plus an LEQ all sailing at the same time, under seperate but parallel development programmes (and sailing against each other...?) has got to be a significant advantage...
Interested by the difference in days on the water between teams as shown by the Americas Cup message today. 53 days for Red Bull, only 33 for Ineos.
Always the best
in this level of (new class) sport if the rules aren't being developed on the fly then we would be still racing J class
IMO the best looking and best match racing, but its 2023 lets see how fast VMG can go . always good report Moz
ETNZ seem to be ahead of the pack with their program. And that's no big surprise, surely. The rule detail has to be scrutinized, yes. Possibly they're over the line somewhere, sure. Will it matter to the outcome? I doubt it. And it's nothing close to historical rule shenanigans from AC of yesteryear. It's interesting to see other teams getting time on AC40. Love to be a fly on the wall as they assess their learnings!
ETNZ development is a good example of how we all should approach one design sailing, trying any possible legal modification to fine tune boat and sail.
So are the other teams able to do what Team NZ are doing if so the issue is ???
My issue is that the Teams should all have a (at least one) dedicated expert who is pouring over the oppositions developments with a rule book in hand.
This is an area Cups are won or lost. If they are not doing this, or not picking up and asking for clarification on these things that could be rule transgressions, then they are negligent or worse..
Making up the rules as they go along is putting it very politely indeed.
You don't get to keep a cup for 132 years by playing with equal rules.
Just call it home advantage.
interesting to see so strange class rules
What are the rules around 1*leq12, 1*ac 40 and 1ac75 test??
I thought they could have either the leq 12 OR a previous ac75. But in etnz shed they have all 3??
The legacy AC75 is an additional option, regardless of how many AC40s/LEQ12s they have. But obviously some teams will have a financial limitation
It's not an easy job to take a one design boat and turn it (in this case) into an LEQ 12. But worse, it will be a herculean task to revert back to a factory-original AC40. Team NZ will likely argue that they created two "test platforms" for redundancy, but I think you are right Tom, there's a certain singularity in the wording that suggests its competitors may have been misled.
What are they really up to? I wonder in fact whether they are playing on the fact that early on a certain modification was needed on their AC40 following their smashed bow. Is there anything in the rules stipulating when an AC40 ceases to be an AC40?
It's certainly going to be "interesting times" ahead
While I don't think that would work in any established dinghy class. Turn up the 49er worlds with a boat that is a foot longer than the standard and explain that I had no choice but to extend the hull, it was the only way I could repair it after the bow got smashed in a crash with a harbour wall. I have never been a measurer, but I suspect that you be unlikely to get the relevant tags and be allowed to race it!
Kiwis know what they're doing,plus they do it very well,a very clued up competitive country are us kiwis
Maybe on the end - this one design AC40 its still under development 😉!
This newer knowing getting on AC 37 - AC 40tis on the end.
Its not leq12 🥳...
Hopefully team NZ finding development for AC40🥴❤️❤️it!
I'm a NZ fan
Interesting thoughts. My gut feel is, if it were an issue, one of the challengers would have already gone to arbitration about it. Most likely Luna Rossa would be all over it if it was a problem. Once the AC40 class is finalised, all boats will receive the latest mods I assume. Therefore Team NZ won’t really have an advantage as everyone will benefit from their development time/effort. 🤷
True. But only Team NZ will know WHY those mods are designed the way they are.
NZ would most certainly have an advantage. Say they tried 6 different iterations to make a change. None of the other team would know the advantages or disadvantages of these other iterations. NZ could make the official change to the third best design and keep the best in their pocket. Therefore getting to develop their new design for free without any cost towards the design limitations in the rules.
Now the second part seems pretty sketchy but your reasoning that the mods look like test components is again exactly what I would expect when trying to design a class. Otherwise you are saying you can't test improvements to the one design class which would clearly be nonsense. All in all seems like it's legal.
Except the mods aren't on any of the ac40 boats delivered to the other teams, and I very doubt they are sharing the data collected on their modified ac40
@WoWOmegor no because the class hasn't been finalised. Only once they are would you expect to see the fleet updated. This is the loophole. If it were fair then all teams could test improvements to the class and provide the data back to the designer but then they wouldn't necessarily want to do that in case they found something they wanted to keep to themselves.
Or it should have been a third party who were designing the AC40 class.
Is there a statute of limitations on the time to lodge a protest? What would be the likely redress if they were found in breach. Should the AC40 design cycles and data capture be open source.
Do ETNZ forfeit the cup to the winner of the challenger series?
Will LRPP keep their protest in the bag, pending further observation?
No brown envelopes were harmed in the consideration of these contraventions.
I had the opportunity to ask Grant Dalton a question a couple months ago. I asked him: "you talked earlier about some of the innovations your team made, like the bicycle whatchemecallit things... what are some of the innovations we can look forward to in the next boat?"
We all laughed. I didn't get an answer. Looks like you're on the case though.
Firstly, I have to admit that I haven't read all the rules, but from this video alone they seem to contradict themselves.
At 1:09, it states you can use it as a test platform as long as you return it to class-legal before racing it in that class. This implies that what they are doing it perfectly legal and, in fact, expected.
However, rule 4.2 clearly states that modifications outside of class-legality would mean it becomes an LEQ12.... so which is it?
If I read these rules in isolation I would see the option to use an AC40 as a test platform (then returning it to class-legal) as an excellent cost-saving strategy, and allowing this is a really good way of getting new & smaller teams in. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. If the ETNZ approach is legal it would actually encourage people to buy two boats rather than building one, which seems counterproductive.
I would like to point out this potential rules-lawyering and it's link to the ITUK 'mast'. The tow mast was a potentially cheap way of getting accurate & controlled data without spending the money on a tow tank, and it was outlawed (I still think it's a shame). If the Challenger of Record can get stung by these rules (regardless of the intentions behind them) it is a little worrying that the cup holder may be able to get around the intention of their own rules.
I know that the point of the cup is to beat the holder at their own game, but writing the rules to a supporting class that is based on a development class, while developing their own entry to said development class, seems a little strange (and a bit of a mouthful). At this stage I would have expected the AC40 class rules to be much tighter than they evidently are
What do I think? I think if this was INEOS instead of ETNZ, you would have never made the video :)
Making the rules up as you go along has always been the case with the team holding the cup. The US used a catamaran against NZ mono hull(1988 America's cup) because they could make the rules.
That's different to ac class rules. That race was a deed of gift ruling, just like the 2010 race which is nearly unrestricted....
New Zealand is a complete sports mad country,we like winning
I wonder how many of the AC teams watch your videos!
a few
It's the Americas cup, ETNZ knows the game, the legalities, the lawsuits etc. Why haven't the challengers stepped up ? and where is the AC comity ? the challenger of record ? The way I see it is ETNZ have always been innovators, inventors etc. I'm sure we'll hear about any issues if there are any.
Still, nobody really knows how one teams modifications will match-up to another's. My moneys still with ETNZ to find a way through. They have ingenuity to burn.
if cup was in NZ as it should be ,doubt they could afford all this
Very convenient to be writing the rules for the class that's also a basis for test boats. It's looks like NZ Sailing continuing their history of milking the rules and regulations to their advantage. Technically legal, probably. But.... eh as a casual follower of the sport for a long time, it's not a good look.
Well, indeed not as good a look as the America's Cup sitting securely on the mantlepiece at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron.
Well the government dropped the funding ball for ETNZ this sail around...
...We need the two boats to train three teams plus the reserves team...more efficient this way...
❤️ ETNZ let's go ⛳
It is rather curious that the other teams aren’t throwing a flag. Do they think they can learn more or hurt team New Zealand more if they wait? Or is this simply allowing team New Zealand to learn more than their competitors can possibly learn?
It's a tension. They have to want to get the best possible AC 40 PLATFORM. If nz is right these changes will stay and therefore, other teams will adopt them too. This could actually save other teams development. So, they wait and let it slide.
AC 34 San Fran is an example nz let the rabbit out to soon and it cost us the cup. Other teams just copied and did not have to go through the hard parts.
I think they know until the class rule is published its impossible to prove anything is not class legal. So they bide their time for the AC40 rule and hope ETNZ don't capture all their mods and then raise it. That's my guess anyway.
Waiting to determine if a greater advantage can be gained against NZ in the future presupposes some collusion on the part of the other teams. I think that's very unlikely, yet, if there's actual rule bending I also think it's very odd no one has raised an eyebrow. Yet. We'll see.
@@jamesaron1967 if you knew there was a team that was known for making revolutionary changes to their designs which gain major advantages over competitors, would you rather see then and know or wait till it's too late?
@@MozzySails wasn't it you who did the post on scaling? Just cause it works on AC 40 does not mean it will scale to 70s. We don't even know if there will be measurable gain.
I think you've shown the competition some pretty juicey photos which they can figure what it is, and copy it if they feel will benefit their boats performance. Isn't this what Americas Cup has always been about? Catch-up, in design, as well as in the races. The Kiwis design idea's have put America's Cup on the world stage. What they do, the others will do.
More Speed please!
As a Kiwi I cannot agree with you more. They have always been the innovators. This started way back in their first challenge in Fremantle where they used a fibreglass boat and Dennis Connor continued saying it was not possible and demanded core samples. At the end of the regatta they disclosed they also had a fibreglass mast. Within two more Cups all boats and masts were fibreglass. On their first defence in Auckland they even got down to having the mast stays elliptical to save drag. They came up with the "foil" and the "cycling" setup. There are enough photos and off-board scrutiny for others to see and copy.
A friend was doing fibre-glassing on the KZ 1 boat for the "one off" challenge when it was being built in Auckland and he was amazed at the number of USA "spies" continually loitering around the boat yard and waterfront bars.
as I understand it ..one is AC40 one design set up..and the other is LEQ12 set up so whats your point...And ...perhaps you could explain the photos since the recon vids and photos arent allowed closeups or drones near the boats while sailing???...who exactly is taking advantage here mmmmmm...let me think...
Their AC40 currently seems to be mostly one design, although it does look like that have installed a non-class jib halyard (potentially a halyard lock) which I circle at 2:33. And the general point of the video is that the assumption that one boat must stay one design is not correct and over time ETNZ may start putting more test components on their second boat.
Its hard enough for the other teams to sail one boat let alone 2
All teams put 2 boats out and suss it out.
Team Nz💪
The defender always has the upper hand, that is what the america's cup is about.
Ha ha ...well spotted however pretty sure team nz have got the legal bit down pat but no dojbt some one will test them in thr hope to put the bos off the pill
And hey good luck with that this crew is def on point
Kiwis have interchangeable feathers. That is a well-known fact. It's because we come out at night and eat worms. 🤣
It funny how the bottom placed teams will look for any fault to take down the top teams.
Speaking of AC40, how come Ineos LEQ12 has a couple of top handle winches stuck in their deck? Doesn’t look 1D at all.
Bizarre that a 1D class is shipping to customers before the rule is finalised and released and, you’d think, shipped with it.
The winches are for hoisting sails. ETNZ remove them from both boats when sailing
What do I think?
I think you may get called a Whinging Pomme?
I'm going to be a spoil sport here, but the complexity of the rules for AC racing is counter intuitive. Why have a plethora of rules which have to be policed, interrogated and fought over, other than to offer employment to a large group of team members whose only function is to find loopholes to exploit, Or to spot rule breakers in your opponent's. If the rules are there to control costs, then clearly that concept has failed. Some rules are required of course, but a simple box rule covering size would be a good start. No stored power would simplify control systems. Relaxing rules would free up innovation. The Americas Cup claims to be at the pinnacle of sailing technology - it certainly qualifies if expenditure is the yardstick. I had a very small involvement in the UK's Blue Arrow AC challenge (I built the wing mast) Back in those days the excitement of developing a foil stabilised monohull was fantastic. (it needed buoyancy bags under the foils like a kids first bike to get up to speed) I'm being unrealistic I know, but I'm an old fart now, and that's what we do.
If ETNZ were doing something wrong the biggest moaners in the Americas Cup would be moaning.. they are silent... Well Played Boys and Girls well played
What I’m wondering is will your theory lead a team to protest?
I don't think I know anything that the teams don't. I think they will wait to see the Ac40 class rule and that point if ETNZ have made any change which aren't covered, then put in a enquiry. But they will all be monitoring it!
IM A AMERICAN , SO IM NOT SOMEONE BITTER TALKING BAD ABOUT ANOTHER COUNTRY BREAKING RULES. HISTORY OF THE AMERICA CUP , IS A HISTORY OF BREAKING RULES. AMERICA WOULD CHANGE THE RULES MID RACE, IF THEY WERE LOSING. SO IT BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME . IS IT RIGHT NO BUT IT BEEN THERE
We're a long way from TNZ bailing the boat with a 5gal bucket first race, first leg of AC31 aren't we? czcams.com/video/sNbQqzu8EZE/video.html
So your saying their ......cheating, with out saying their cheating ?
not at all. I am pointing out that America's Cup is a stacked competition where the winner makes the rules.
The AC40 class rules have now come out and there is a whole section that makes the modifications to their AC40 'class legal' but not 'race legal'.
It's not a dig at ETNZ but I think it's interesting and newsworthy. It's part of the fabric that has made the Cup what it is
Sorry.... I nodded off.
a sleeping viewer is still viewer in the eyes of ad revenue. Thanks for your support :)
You missed it hahaha
I’ve been sailing since I was 4, 65 now. AC is the most uninteresting sailboat racing in the world. Why is anyone paying attention? Again, the a-holes are cheating again as always. This is not sport it’s greed and self interest.
The people who know, and exploit the rules the best will almost always win.
NZ doesn't win by being conservative with the rules' interpretation.
I need 2 boats.. one is always broken.
Then you’ll be able to have 2 broken boats. It’s an ugly path i you’re the guy paying the toll.
take three boats to "improve" repair & maintenance 🙂
All looks well dodgy and as you pointed out, they have previous for this. Great video…
The boats are simply incredible, but when the competition complicates to this F1 level of rules, it comes across as an almost as expensive farce.
Luckily, as these are frivolously funded by the extremely wealthy, one really doesn't need to care if one team or the other is shafted.
Come on Mozzy, you are having a right laugh cobber. ETNZ are experts in following the rules to a tee. There is no smoking gun here so you need to move on swiftly..... Back to looking at Sir Bens concrete brick me thinks.....
So finally another one of the competition,has decided to use 2boat testing bit slow on the uptake but finally they realised,ETNZ aren't cheating,
Guessing,all those Rich lawyer's in the USA,told American magic,you can sail 2boats,😂😂😂
Doesn’t seem to be “Sportsmanship like” to me to be able to adapt the rules to one teams advantage. I think Team NZ are in danger of slipping into win at all cost and justifying it to themselves with “The others would do it if they could”. Surely the rules should be taken out of any teams hands. The challenge should be for the designers and most importantly the sailors not the lawyers.
Defenders making the rules up as they go along, what a surprise. 🤣🤣🤣
The rich get richer..
Whinging poms......who would have thought
A boat is a boat. If nz know how to build a boat, what is the problem. As long as nz follow the rules of building a boat.
thats owe right we won the cup we can make the rules dude get over it lol go kiwi rule americas cup!
As an amateur in this scale of yacht why don’t they just specify MONOHULL only and get some levelling of the playing field, or are we to be stuck with the same ‘interpretation’ of rules as as in F1, exercised by multimillionaire organisations- get back to sailing please!
ETNZ are a lot fairer than America ever were. That’s undeniable.
I’m a kiwi and we don’t have support for this team anymore after they didn’t show pride back to the country that’s supported them so they should be punished if it’s illegal. They are money hungry and that’s all they care about
You do seem to whinge a bit?!
You're trying to make something from nothing. They are obviously working out what is worthwhile using for the final one design rules. Someone has to do it. They have made a big push to cut costs and getting the rules down to sailors making the difference, not money. To encourage it as an event with numerous competitors not 1v1 crap from the past
HI there. Are you angling for increased views in the form of click bait? Or, do you have a complex against New Zealand and their success? How many detractors were there (you included) against the new mono-hulls and yet they turned out to be next generation sailing. Ask yourself, would Ineos be so evil if they come up with some game changing idea that seemed to circumvent the rules? N Z would have won in Sanfanciso too if America didn't discover our revolutionary foils, get Dean Barker in their back pocket and get saved by an out dated race time limit. Are you just sore because the creator and initiator of the Ole Mug has NEVER EVER WON IT?!
Please do some real recon and steal the videos from the underwater cameras.
I love the America's Cup but it's all so disingenuous.
Woke sailing.
A quirky-science- bureaucracy high jacked a sporting event to overcompensate and prove some sort of point.
It doesn’t have to like this.
Are the challengers running scared already..?
Yes.
Loophole Schmoophole..
Was Oracles "Mod" when they cheated back then legal..?
Depends if you've got the best legal system money can buy or not..
Cheating
Bro R U Blind
Get over it mate, less talking, and lets see more of the boats.
Who cares?
Crappy, flimsy boats. The world doesn't care anymore....
Its not ETNZ's first rodeo and there not stupid.
Don’t worry fans, as long as the BONESAW SAUDIES are in charge it will all be fair and ethical!