Are Violinists Better Than Violists at Playing Viola?
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- čas přidán 26. 02. 2021
- Violinists such as Maxim Vengerov and Pinchas Zukerman have performed on the viola to critical acclaim, but in this video I explain why their playing is different from full-time violists and apply it to the broader question: are violinists better than violists at playing viola?
If you’re wondering why I chose to use an extended metaphor about Martian food, it’s because I felt like ethnic food being prepared by non-ethnic people was a perfect metaphor but I didn’t want to use actual races in case it offended anyone. Sorry if anyone watching this is actually from Mars and got offended.
Also in case anyone is wondering why my brother went on viola to Allstate twice when he mainly performed as a violinist, our state’s system is you audition for a district orchestra first and then qualify for state. He auditioned on both violin and viola for district and he would have qualified for state on both, but he won principal viola at district both years so he felt like he couldn’t turn that down. He also went to state a different year as a violinist and placed highly (I don’t remember exactly but I think it was top 10)
Background Music: Brahms F minor Sonata Mvt. 1 and 2 performed by Amihai Grosz: • Amihai Grosz plays Bra...
In case you want to listen to more of a piece you heard in this video, here are links to the original videos I got them from in order of appearance:
Maxim Vengerov, Sibelius Violin Concerto: • Sibelius Violin Concer...
Maxim Vengerov, Walton Viola Concerto: • Maxim Vengerov plays W...
Antoine Tamestit, Walton Viola Concerto: • Walton: Bratschenkonze...
Pinchas Zukerman, Brahms Zwei Gesange for Voice, Viola, and Piano: • Chamber Music Society:...
Amihai Grosz, Brahms Zwei Gesange for Voice, Viola, and Piano: • Two Songs for Alt, Vio...
Julian Rachlin, Schubert Arpeggione Sonata: • Violin Recital / Julia...
Julian Rachlin, Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto: • Video
Julian Rachlin Interview: • An Interview with Juli...
Lawrence Power, Rameau Piéces de Clavecin en Concerts: • West Wycombe Chamber M... - Hudba
I like how you analyzed them into groups, and pointed out subtle differences I never noticed as a former youth orchestra violinist. Here's the summary just to make it a bit easier to follow.
1:13 Part 1: Violinists Who Play Viola
5:11 Part 2: Violinists Who Are Also Violists
8:15 Part 3: Violists Who Also Play the Violin
10:01 Part 4: Pre-College Violinists and Violists
11:31 Conclusion
Keep up good contents king! 👏
Cool
#twosetviolin needs to see this!! :D
@@8Phoenix8 😂ohhhh most definitely Thank you. Love them and yes 👏 Thank You 🙏 violists unite 💖 🎻 this was an amazing 🥲 break down of how it is for us… love it.
As someone who plays violin and viola equally, I definitely think viola is harder. You can't copy-paste violin technique onto viola bc everything feels completely different. I've had to work A LOT on my right arm placement bc on violin it's very high and on viola you need to hold your elbow lower and dig in more. I'll argue that viola is harder until the day I die. Violins are so tiny
I find the same things when I occasionally try violin. I might make a video about why viola is harder at some point
I completely agree! As a violinist who dearly loves and desperately attempts to play the viola well but doesn't always succeed, I'm constantly faced with just how difficult the viola is. It continually gives me more and more respect and admiration for such a marvelous instrument.
I don't know. I think the same can be said for both. Going from violin to viola, viola is a big different and very challenging. You have to use more strength to get notes to sound well and you have to adjust to violas rich, resonant sound. Going from viola to violin, you are having to contract your movements and use more precision because of the smaller, narrower, playing area. I would say they are equally matched in my opinion, outside of the drastically more competitive nature of violin.
I agree… and I think one of the reasons is “physics”. Viola being bigger is a pain in the as. Hurts more, weights more, u gotta play stronger.. even though is played in the same place in the body as the violin. so i guess it may be the real challenge. Just my opinion hehe
I started on violin last year and then picked up the viola back in March/April. While I haven't played for a relatively long time, I can say with certainty that each instrument has its own challenges. I ended up advancing on the viola much faster than on violin and people were even pointing out when I first started that I sound better on viola and have an easier time playing complex pieces, despite having started on the violin roughly 7-8 months prior. Then I have this weird thing going on with my schedule where I end up switching between the two literally every day during the week. It's very hard at first to differentiate clefs and techniques, but after a while, I got the hang of both differentiating the nuances of the two and at the same time, combining it. It's very difficult to explain but both instruments are difficult but which one is harder depends on the person. I had an easier time on viola and ended up outpacing my developing violin skills, but eventually, I managed to merge and differentiate the techniques and my violin playing has almost skyrocketed in about a few months while simultaneously skyrocketing my viola playing. Sorry for the long response but this is just a very intriguing topic for me.
I liked your Martian cooking metaphor. I don't think Martians would be offended. This entire video was well-thought out. I wish more violinists (and other musicians) understood that viola's differences (resonance vs. projection, for instance) are what make it such a great instrument, and not something just to make jokes about.
One of my channel goals is for more people to understand those things, like you said
Thank you for pointing out the importance of the viola’s special character. I grew up in a time when it was a “given” that violinists were better and I’ve fought and struggled with how to dispel that prejudice; you show very clearly what I’ve never quite been able to! I’ve been playing the viola for 45 years and still find new colors and sounds; it’s a privilege to play viola!
Zukerman still has one of my favorite viola sounds. His sinfonia concertante with Perlman is fantastic, and his arpeggione sonata is the the best i've heard.
I always see both viola and violin as different tools for different expressions. My love for the viola comes from the very mature and suave tambour it resonates.
It's also a cute mini cello
Mini cello
Thanks so much for sharing as always great content
The only thing that makes the violin more popular than the viola is repertoire. The rest is subjective and up to preference. I never tried the viola, but I heard that it's also harder than violin, and that makes me curious and I definitely should try one day. If I ever become a composer, I will do my best to add some very good pieces to the viola's repertoire!
Indeed. And it on,y started happening because in the loud settings of orchestra violins could project better. Today, with better technique and technology, viola can win any day!
Such a great video! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it was very interesting.
This was so interesting, thank you for the great comparison!
I started on viola at age 7 and never played violin. (I did learn to play piano so I consider myself trilingual in music!) I appreciate your discussion of these subtle differences and am in love with my viola (naturally I bought one too big for me but I keep trying to live up to its beautiful tone!). My teacher played violin first and moved to viola and plays in a professional orchestra; he was impressed that I was a "purist"! Well, I am and proud of it and have never been tempted by the violin. I like being the mediator in the orchestra as you put it. Thanks for this interesting discussion.
It is much harder tind a good viola than a violin. Most violas will have a dead C string, a too-narrow dynamic range, slow response, lack of clarity and unfocused sound. As a viola maker, I have to fight this problems all the time.
Great descriptions, it gives a lot to think about.
You are very thoughtful. Your use of analogies is excellent.
a delightful, entertaining and very informative video!
I love your videos!
Excellent video. Thanks 😊
Exactly! Loved this video!
One of my conducting teachers was Dr. Richard Lert. He was the god-son of Brahms, friend of R. Straus, conductor of Vienna and Berlin Orchestras, and much more. He said that the use of vibrato in Germanic music was a natural growth from the Baroque style where it was used sparingly. It was the Russian - Hungarian style that used massive fast vibrato as exemplified in Auer's students.
That's an interesting observation! I definitely have noticed that on some older recordings in particular the vibrato can be particularly fast and dramatic. It's less of a thing in modern recordings.
Thank you for this really thorough and well thought out video. I love the examples that you include because they are clear and concise and I like how you were able to pull excerpts from the recordings so we can hear for ourselves. I really like your food / cooking analogy, it really makes sense, and I think this also applies a lot to languages too. I play both violin and viola regularly (and piano but that's another story). I have never studied viola formally and I admit that I probably do have a bit of a "violin accent" when playing viola, but I do agree that there are important differences between playing the two. Personally I tend to invest myself a lot more in the difference in tone production than the difference in vibrato because vibrato seems to vary quite a bit among string players anyway and everyone needs to have a varied vibrato based on musical context, but that's just me.. But I agree, there are physical challenges in playing the viola and I am small stature so that definitely adds a layer of difficulty, but the effort is worth it so long as you find a way to do it without straining your body. I also admit that I might have a tendency to display a bit more of a virtuosic character on the viola sometimes but I absolutely don't wish to disrespect its warm, deep tone.
Check out Yura Lee. She plays both violin and viola equally and can actually draw out the sound needed on both effortlessly, as if she's a different person playing when switching.
bro viola literally sounds better, and there are still some violinists who thing otherwise 😐
A bold statement, yet an accurate one imo
Yessssss
I don't play either and I agree.
No, I play both instruments, viola sounds like an old man with lots to say, but violin is an innocent petite loli
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought so. My 10 years old son plays violin for about 2 years but he doesn’t sound that good, until my husband who is his teacher let him try viola. He suddenly sounds way better. Now he got admitted as principal viola and violin I to the local orchestra. Hard to decide
James, you've absolutely knocked it out of the park with this video! I've come back to watch this whole video all the way through now multiple times, and probably will keep coming back to it regularly, you've made some really excellent points. As a violinist who dearly loves the viola, I aspire to play the viola in its true character, or perhaps, "cook martian food that truly tastes authentic," even though I'm not a native player. The whole discussion on vibrato and resonance/projection is so very insightful, and also so very difficult to tackle in practice. My violinistic right arm and vibrato are just so ingrained and so natural to me, and getting that deep viola resonance and wide/slow/warm viola vibrato are so hard. Perhaps I will never be able to play the viola in such a way that truly captures its distinctive voice, but I will always continue to try. Anyway, keep up the awesome work James, you always bring such a positive vibe and great content in all your videos👍👍
Thank you for the kind comment and I wish you luck!
@@ViolaKing thank you!
My first violin teacher was in fact a VIOLIST! HE could play 1812 overture and fill the multipurpose room at our elementary school. IM NOT JOKING, HE PLAYED POWERFULLY!. I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE VIOLA HAD EXTRA POWER. I PLAYED A VIOLA 6 MONTHS AGO, I ENJOYED IT VERY MUCH. NOW I WANT A VIOLA! THIS IS 40 YEARS AFTER I GAVE UP VIOLITN. HOWEVER I PICKED UP
Great video. Very nice.
Hail to the Viola King!
Most of the greatest violists alive all started on viola: / Lawrence Power / Tabea Zimmermann / Paul Neubauer / Timothy Ridout / Paul Coletti / Hsin-yun Huang / Jennifer Stumm
and countless others
It taken me ages to even get the G-string on the violin to resonate as well as the other strings, it feels very different to the higher strings, I can imagine having longer strings and a lower string would completely change the feel, not to mention it being bigger and heavier, with longer stretches, it has taken me long enough to be able to play anything on the violin coming from guitar and related instruments, if I hadn't played some mandolin I imagine my frustration would have been even greater, my brother plays many instruments including cello and viola, I always envied his talent with music, but I'm making progress!
Hi, your ,,Stamitz practice,, video got me interested in your channel. I love viola very much, in my mind, it combines some better qualities of violin and cello and avoids some that I don't enjoy.
Thank you! Interesting video. I subscribe to the Spanish violist Sara Ferrandez' channel. AFAIK, she played the viola from the very beginning, which I suppose is a little unusual.
I would estimate that about half the violists I know were violists from the start and half switched from violin
alto clef x viola king is the crossover i didnt' know i needed until now
Thoughts on Primrose? I always assumed his and Zukerman’s quicker, continuous vibrato and more sustained sound was more related to the older school of playing but I don’t really know many old school violists to compare them to...
see my reply above
It’s not a violin, it’s a training viola.
8:54 🤣 so humble yet amazingly hilarious
Great analysis! How would you qualify Aaron Carpenter?
Carpenter is an interesting case since he’s certainly a violist but he studied with Pinchas Zukerman. He has a violinistic left hand but his bow arm completely understands the viola. His violin playing is also quite excellent. I consider him a violist who can also play violin
Should be interesting to see which of the two would sound better on the Gamba: viola or violin? 😮
I will try a gamba someday if I have the chance
What do you think about people who started with violin but picked up viola lessons later (like late high school/early college)? Been playing violin for 15 years and viola for 5 years (only 3 years of orchestral experience on viola). I really like viola and now I’m even more confused about which one I want to pursue a professional career on! 😂
I had been playing violin for 12 years before I fully switched to viola. It’s definitely possible to fully transition your technique to viola if you understand the technical and character differences and legitimately enjoy viola
Your vibrato speed theory doesn't really hold up. Because in that case, most virtuoso cellists would play with an extremely slow vibrato in order to fit your theory - but they don't. The fact is you can play a wide, narrow, slow or faster vibrato on almost any bowed or blown instrument. It is a matter of personal taste. Of course the viola is harder and requires a somewhat different technique, but less different than say comparing a harpsichord with a piano, and there are plenty of pianists who successfully play harpsichord. I think there is a lot of in-built resentment by violists who object to Vengerov coming along and "stealing" their thunder. I understand their resentment but it's just hard cheese, or even paranoia. Good discussion though.
I am a retired professional violist AND professionally play organ, harpsichord, piano and violin. There ARE INDEED major difference between all these instruments that require subtle yet significant approaches and styles of playing. Many differences include school styles such as the Russian, Franco-Belgian, Flemish. English, etc., and historical mannerisms and styles.
Not to mention subtle differences between playing flute and piccolo, clarinet and bass clarinet, different types of saxophones, and different brass instruments... I'm not a wind player but I've heard people talk about it.
In common with so many other people, I started with violin before changing to viola as second study at college (piano is my first instrument) and have taught all three instruments for my whole career and played in orchestras. I love violin and viola equally but as I get older l find the viola incredibly heavy and it can strain my back so would rather play second violin in orchestras (l love playing the harmony of the inner parts). My viola is small as I am not particularly tall and have fairly small hands. I have had the neck of my viola narrowed so that it is the same width as a violin neck and makes the C string much more manageable. I think it is a matter of bow technique more than anything else. It is very different on a viola than on the violin.
What was the name of the violist playing the Walton concerto? First name was Antoine but I could not make out the second
Tamestit
Violin = "Training Viola" It's hard to learn basic chops on Viola, because of the size.
I remember reading a comment where someone said Vengerov got injured because he played the viola. No idea if there's any truth in that. But I think Vengerov did stop playing the viola?
I wouldn’t be surprised if he got injured. If you look at his hand in the Walton clip, he keeps his thumb anchored and stretches rather than bringing his thumb up more, which can lead to injury
this cat instantly made me sub
Surgei the cat! Surgei Rachimoniff! By the way I like your intro
A violinist instinctively plays viola closer to the bridge. Makes it project more.
Not sure how much the wrestling and music worlds overlap outside of my family, but as someone with connections to both (I'm much better at viola LOL), the closest metaphor would be wrestlers competing in Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). The stereotype is that any decent wrestler can smash a BJJ guy regardless of his belt just due to the speed and athleticism drilled from a young age among wrestlers. But with enough hard work, the BJJ guy can overcome his weaknesses and find a way to win. No matter what though, it's still very rare to see them outwrestle a wrestler on their feet by their rules. Sorry for rambling but if you've ever tried either sport, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm aware this is a hot take but I think it's important to be honest about what I see and feel. Constructive disagreement is welcome.
Hey Viola King, my sound sucks. It is not warm and dark and full and juicy and thick, as a viola should sound. What is the "secret", so to speak?
as a violinist, i don’t even know why we arguing which is better lmao
I just read "Are violinists better than violists" and got triggered immediately
Now if anyone says that irl you can show them this video
lol, I havent start playing viola yet but it is actually my plan to do so soon...I am actually playing violin…But I totally love cello and viola is the closet thing I can get to it….I have really small hands you see😆
as someone who is learning to play the fiddle who loves classical violin I have to say if it was not for the viola the orchestra would tank. I have always believed that the slow melodic sound from the viola balances all the other instruments in the violin family but each has it's sound. The double bass sounds beautiful on it's own, same with the cello and the violin as well as the viola but when the instruments are brought together their beauty is magnified and pulled together beautifully and that is all due to the viola and the balance it brings.
Forget Mars. Try getting a philly cheesesteak in Oklahoma. I'm so frustrated right now..
I happened to have a Philly cheesesteak from my cafeteria earlier this week and I spilled it on my shirt. Quite frustrating indeed
See the main thing that this video shows is that a violin is like a rock start type of instrument, or a diva soprano or a tenor. It is bright and right in your face and not shy about anything, it wears bright colours, yellows, reds, pinks, it is like a that disco music ball they used to have in the 70s.
The viola on the other side, is an introspective character. It is the workman. It will do wonderful things but it is always reserved. You can think of the viola as the ambassador. It lives in multiple places yet it never the pin point star of a place. It is happy in staying at home an cooking dinner. It is very earthy and has no need to show off.
The violinists approaching the viola, still treat it as a violin. It is like putting bright colours on a horse. Just doesn't work. They need to put on those overalls and just be part of it.
In other words, they don't really get it as the approach is more in character rather than technique.
Martian mash...LOL!!! I've always thought about this topic since college days. There was a time when Arnold Steinhardt was on leave due to tennis elbow (?) during a concert season in the 90's. Thankfully, the Guarneri Quartet didn't cancel their concert, so I went. I think they opened with a Beethoven string trio in G major. John Dalley sounded amazing. Then they also performed the Chausson piano quartet. Michael Tree, who's playing I revere, played violin. Since the configuration for the piece is piano, violin, viola & cello, he could've played viola but he played violin and Dalley played viola. Well, it wasn't the greatest Guarneri performance but still memorable being that it was so unique. Violin-->Viola can be great. Viola-->Violin usually not so good. If you're interested, I think Elon is seeking volunteers to Mars. Love the viola, enjoyed your video analysis. Thank you!
👏👏 violists should also spend some time with the violin as vice versa #violaPower
Haha was that a Lawrence Power pun?
There’s actually a viola ensemble group called ViolaPower lol
*reads title, clicks on video, scrolls to comments; “no”
*leaves
I think as a electric bassist who can play guitar , I can see why some pick one over the other . Some guitarists play 7 or 8 string guitars trying to simulate bass but its definitely not the same different mindset . Violin and Viola seem like different mindsets also.
What's the real definition of a string quartet?
A pretty good violinist,
A not so good violinist,
Someone who couldn't play the violin, and
Someone who hates the violin.
Lol
Nice, I think I'll give a try at speaking another language with an accent!
I tend to disagree. Although I am now principal violist in the first orchestra of my country, I studied the violin, and I was not playing long the viola when I got my Position.
This has also happened in great orchestras of Germany or Austria, where sometimes the new principal could barely read the alto clef.
It's not that violinists play actually the viola better, it's just that people that choose to play the viola in average have worse technique and less talent than violinists (in average, not all of course).
Also playing the viola doesn't necessarily mean, slow wide vibrato etc. Listen to primrose for example. There are many ways to play the violin and make it sound beautiful as there are playing the viola. As is the case with cello. There are cellists who have fast narrow vibrato.
Of course it's best to vary your style. But that's true in every instrument. Zuckerman puts vibrato everywhere also on the violin. Whereas modern violinists like Kavakos don't do that. It's not a matter of the instrument, it's about the player.
Wow, that was tortured.
Marsian mash
Man, You are comparing different people, different approaches, different schools, different interpretations, and claiming that the violists are more “violistic” that is just wrong.
AMAZING! Ling Ling approves! 👍
I imagine people who are more delicate and precise will play the violin better, while people who are more rough and clumsy will play the viola better.
Violin is the easiest of the strings to play. Viola is harder, cello is harder again, and bass is even harder. The proof? Take the hardest piece you know on violin. Try it on viola. It's harder. It's harder again on cello and near-impossible on bass. So how did the myth that violin is hardest come about? Simple. What's hardest is the music, and the melody-players get the hardest music. Musicians, not being the sharpest butter-knives in the sock-drawer, equate difficulty of music with quality of performer. Attach big fat egos to the violin section and the rest becomes plain to see.
Bro I ONLY play Viola and I use Violin-like vibrato 😭😭