Should you be an Army Officer or Enlisted?
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- This is in partial reaction to the video placed by Matsimus, himself an NCO, over on his channel.
• Should you enlist in t...
Without recourse to doing anything so base as to referring to books, I give my take on the ever-present question: "Should I go enlisted or commissioned officer?"
Both are viable routes with their pros and cons.
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1SG here. For my 2 cents, this is a perfect representation, and should be required viewing prior to commissioning.
I completely agree with you! BTW, thanks for your service my brother!
Hoah
As another retired 1SG, I'll go even further: This should be required viewing before even APPLYING !
Question for you top. Do you think it would make for a more rounded NCO if they had to do time in a staff job or something other then their MOS like officers do. Something along the line of it being a requirement for SFC. Say a staff job so when the 19A SFC ask for a bridge he understands why he is being told no for the logistics side.
@@wesleyshirley326 the best answer I can come up with is a solid "maybe?". A broadening assignment will provide greater understanding of the big picture, but time spent away from the Soldiers and the unit's specific mission will be time that could be spent perfecting your craft. I think both are important. That being said, experience in staff prior to reaching the E-8/E-9 level can be very advantageous.
6:59: "make a decision" reminds me of a German field manual, where it was stated (from memory) a bad decision is still better than none, which reminds me of the interview with the Australian staff officer that explained to me the problem of paralysis.
Perhaps it was a quoting Theodore Roosevelt? "In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
I think it was Patton who said that a 75% solution today when needed is preferable to a 100% solution tomorrow.
@@emm4rmstrong No, the German manual MHNV is thinking of, Truppenführung, was a synthesis of Prusso-German military philosophy going back to Napoleonic times, even it was only written in the 1930s. Prussian officers were chiding each other for being too idle decades before Teddy was born. Still, Teddy and the Prussians were of the same mind when it came to the value of initiative. Even a bad decision forces the enemy to react to you, and if you keep the enemy reacting to you, you can eventually draw them into a position of advantage to yourself. If you are idle, then you can only react, and if you only react, then how can you control the situation to your favor? So goes the thinking.
No doubt Caesar's centurions were talking about the same things.
When I was going through rescue boat crew training, every powerboat had a sticker on the console that said “a good plan now is always better than a perfect plan later”
You nailed it.
I did discover a big difference in the the chow line. On my very first day at my unit after OCS I wanted a quick lunch, so I asked the mess sergeant if they had any peanut butter for a sandwich. I was told "No, sorry" and I replied that it wasn't a big deal. I grabbed my tray and sat on one of those flimsy metal chairs to eat. Before I finished the sergeant walked over with a jar of peanut butter. I thanked him and commented on how he managed to find some. He said that he didn't find it, he sent a private on a run to the PX to buy some! First practical lesson as new lieutenant, be careful asking for things you don't really need.
Lol! Sending a private on a Fool's errand for a commissioned officer. I remember being sent on those a couple of times when I was in.
It was funny how quickly the commissioned officers left the area when we had satchels slung over our shoulder that said explosives on them.
This is like sending your kid into the gas station for headlight fluid right? 😀
In a large unit there are many such privates sent to the town, to the range, to the cantina, to the airport, post office... etc So many, they can keep one driver busy all day long. And guy's jeep, pick-up truck, Galendewagen, 4x4 or whatever they have on the parking. This is the same driver that picks up a drunk mjr or gen. from the city late at night and carries him back home (camp). He is also the one that will be the personal driver of that hi-ranked officer from the other NATO army, which came to visit. These guys are also decent military ambulance drivers. 😉
I read once in the Officer's Handbook that "the expressed wishes of your superior officers should be regarded as orders". Presumably, the take-away is that under NO circumstances, no matter how dire, should an officer shout, "OH, F**K ME!"
@@krissfemmpaws1029 See, there is a difference in intelligence. Geoff Who was enlisted, before most folks here were born.
This video reminded me of the old joke about the officer candidates and the flagpole. - During training a group of officer candidates is taken outside by a major and shown a flagpole on the ground. The major tells them that their assignment is to raise the flag pole in thirty minutes time, and to do this they have the help of a sergeant, a couple of privates and some shovels. The candidates get to it, making planes and trying to come up with the most efficient way to raise the flag pole, but after thirty minutes the flag pole is still laying flat on the ground. The major then tells them that he will now show them the correct way to raise a flag pole; whereupon he turns to the sergeant and orders. "Sergeant, raise the flag pole."
It came to mind immediately.
The classic. Geoff Who was US Army 1972-82.
not necessarily a joke... My friend saw this happen to OCs as he was the "Sargeant" in the story.
I tried to tell this joke to my father (the MSgt.) Before I got to the punch line. he started to explain how to set up a flagpole.
Yes! I always try to hire Ex E5\E6's for supervisor positions...the "how to raise a flag pole as a 2LT" is always my last interview question that has yet to get a big laugh, a hand shake, and great hire.
US Army Officer Rank Structure
Once you learn to sign your name on paperwork without any spelling errors, they give you a gold bar.
When the pile of paperwork you need to sign could fill a boxcar, they give you railroad tracks
.
When the pile of paperwork that you need to sign is piled higher than a tree, they give you oak leaves.
When the pile of paperwork you need to sign is so high, birds detour around it, they give you an eagle.
When the pile of paperwork you need to sign is so high that satellites are diverted around it, they give you star.
Nice xD
LOL, about right
You’re missing the part of giving you junior ones to each rank above a butter bar, to do that, then you do more, and control what they do, lol.
Brilliant! Geoff Who was an E-6 in the US Army 1980's.
This comment section is gold.
This reminds me of my favorite quote I ever heard an officer actually say. We were training up for Iraq, and several of us were standing at the hood of my Company Commander's Humvee giving him facts and our ideas for how to proceed with a mission which had just seen it's first SNAFU courtesy of an OC with a god gun. He was generally comfortable getting input from the NCOs on what to do, even if he decided on something else. I got to listen in as his driver. These conversations never lasted five minutes, but they were gold for letting junior men get experience thinking about the problems we faced. He liked one half of what a Sergeant proposed, and about half of what another man suggested, and had made up his mind when someone else asked if we could just x. That's when he responded with, "The stop date for good ideas was ten minutes ago." We were sitting ducks and OPFOR was likely in route so decisions had to be made yesterday, and it was time to execute. We got to our objective whereupon the OC reinstated our Humvee for the urban combat mission we were training on next. I never forgot what it meant to make a good decision now instead of a perfect one too late.
Former NCO here; with four sons all either serving, or have served; one is an officer, the other three enlisted. I am sending them this video because it is a great overview. However, as a Boomer, I probably won't be able to figure out how to share it! ;-)
Signals specialist private here,
If watching on a smart phone, the share button is the symbol looking like a <
Then select the option that says something along the line of: copy hyperlink.
Then open your text message service, push and hold in the typing section to get an option prompt where you select "paste".
/I do expect you actually managed to share the video on your own ;)
Greetings from Europe!
Remember that the internet was invented by people born before the baby boom.
@@michaelsommers2356 Yeah, but I remember giving those guys swirlies and atomic wedgies so I am pretty sure they've made it impossible for guys like me to use... ;-)
My favorite description when I was an NCO was that "Officers set the policy, NCOs execute the policy". Of course, it's a lot more nuanced than that, but I think it gets to the heart of the matter.
I was only a dumb marine lance corporal, but the way I explained it to my boots, "The officers decide what and the NCOs decide how."
@@CharliMorganMusic Yep, that's about right. Though, "how" is kind of vague. I still told my joes how to do shit. It's more of the "why" and "you can do this, but not that" that came from the officers.
I'm a corporal.
I don't make policy, I just laugh at it.
When I was doing officer training for the British Army, one of the big things they teach is "the 80% solution right now will always trump the 100% solution too late" that and the O.O.D.A loop (Observe Orientate Decide Act) if you can complete your OODA loop before the enemy then you win.
So, much for thereory.
Essentially it's 'Get there fastest with the mostest'.
I’ve been studying the start of WW2 in the Pacific a little and that is what I’ve been noticing again and again. The Japanese Army and Navy was consistently getting inside of everyone’s OODA loop, especially in Malaya.
@@Glove513 That and racial bigotry on the allies part, "we can't do it! so there's no way they can!" Singapore was a prime example
@@andreww2098 Sad but true.
General Moran does have a nice ring to it!
the very model of a modern Major-General, if I may say. ;-)
I'm a civilian (former police officer) and I've worked with in EM with lots of former and current active and guard members. I would add that not only do junior officers need to learn how to make decisions, they also need to learn how to be comfortable with other people making decisions based on their guidance. The worst managers either won't make a decision or want to make all of the decisions. In a disaster, there's no way for one person to make all of the decisions no matter how skilled and important they think they are. So the people that work for them have to make big decisions on serious issues and they have no experience doing that.
That's actually a pretty good point i didn't think to bring up. The issue of trust in the subordinates is a good one
The officer needs to trust that his subordinates will do their jobs every bit as much as we need to be able to trust our officer will do *his* job. Not, "I need my lieutenant to be brilliant and not make mistakes," but, "I need my lieutenant to be decisive without impulsiveness, and then to stand by his decisions with the integrity to take the hits for being wrong and the integrity to be flexible when he's wrong but there is time to fix it." Dumb? I can fix. Lazy? I can mitigate. Waffling? Gotta triage that NUB (Non Useful Body). Lack of *moral* courage? Gotta triage that oxygen thief before he screws over or ruins my boys through his bad example. (And, yes, newbie LTs, the NCO chain *can* cut your throat, professionally speaking, if necessary. I *have* gone to the 1SG and said, "Hey, Top, I need some help. LT Fuzznuts is safety wired into Active-Stupid, arrogant, doesn't listen, and yet can't make up his own mind. I need the CO to fix this." Most of the time, the Captain fixed the problem - and once it took the CSM and BN XO to correct the issue... but I have seen a 2LT get a downcheck on their PL tour - which is pretty much Career Death for Combat Arms, even for the WPPA.)
Ripley: "They're cut off! DO SOMETHING!"
Lt. Gorman: **confused blinking**
Excellent case study. Gorman, by his own admission, was fresh out of the OCS equivalent. He is sent specifically because the mission is supposed to be an easy assignment, to give him the real life experience needed that the Chieftain mentions earlier. Freezing up the first time someone comes in contact with the enemy, the first time one sees people killed is a well documented event. It's why they had along a veteran sergeant. To Gorman's credit, he does step up to the plate later, does not shy away from making the decisions (he authorises nuking the site from orbit and goes back personally for troops left behind).
Are the events discussed in this comment from a movie? It sounds interesting.
@@JackG79 Aliens
@@benlubbers4943 Al Matthews was a real Marine NCO and a Vietnam vet. So he really did know his stuff.
I seem to recall Hicks authorized the nuke, Gorman was still hors de combat
"Possibly even the targets!" Even if I didn't watch this channel for the information Nick imparts on subjects I find fascinating I would watch it for his wonderfully dry sense of humor.
Good break down.
So I commissioned Infantry in 1997 out of ROTC at one of the two Senior Military Colleges with a Corps of Cadets inside a larger civilian population. Prior to commissioning, the Senior NCOs from all the departments (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines) sat us all down and went over the what to expect, how to act etcetera.
The key points:
1. Listen to your NCOs.
2. Don't wear your ring until they get to know you.
Fast forward, I finish at Benning and head out to Germany, get my dream unit assignment and find out I'm getting a Rifle Platoon immediately. Of course they were already deployed and I had to catch up and take over on a real world mission (Macedonia).
I get introduced to my Platoon Sergeant (SFC J), a huge, intimidating man with a combat patch and a CIB. We sit down for chow and he's trying to make small talk but I'm terrified. Finally I blurt out "SFC J, I've been at Benning for the last year, they taught me a lot of stuff but I don't know how to apply that here in the real army, I need your help".
He broke out into a big grin, put a tooth pick in his mouth, leaned back in his chair and put his hands behind his head. He nodded, stood up, patted my shoulder and said "I got you, Sir".
We finish the deployment, recover and start training back up for our war time mission (it was still the Fulda Gap. It's always the Fulda Gap). We're getting missions every day, I get the OPORD from the Command and run back and it goes like this:
Me: SFC J! SFC J! The Commander says we need to do this. I think we should X, what do you think?
SFC J: That's a pretty good idea Sir, have you thought about Y?
Me: Wow, that's great, we'll do that!
One day, and I vividly remember this, when I told him what I thought we needed to do and asked him what he thought he said "You're the Platoon Leader" and so I became the Platoon Leader.
Our Platoon was Top Gun Bradley Platoon in Big Red One for the rest of our time together. We also got to go right back to the Balkans when Kosovo kicked off.
Blue Spaders!
I'm not a military guy. But that sounds to me that the first thing a CO has to learn is respect. You earn it, as you give it.
I know this response is a bit late, but your situation reminds me of my situation in the CG. I was back home from my first year at the Academy and OiC from the local small boat station a BMCS took me under his wing. During our first run he asked how things we were going, and I said something along the lines of "good, but I am still a bit overwhelmed." He just smiled and said "That's why I am here, you will be fine when the time comes."
I got more sleep as an E5 than I ever did as an O1.
I got chewed out less as an E5 as well.
You weren't in the right unit.
@@UkrainianPaulie I think I was. I had a fantastic CO who worked me to death proving I could be trusted with one of his platoons.
Later on, I understand his reasoning and applied it myself.
An officer needs to prove he is worthy 7/24/365. That's to his soldiers, his peers and his superiors.
Wow! I know you were not in the Navy then!
@@edwardpate6128 No, Army...different culture.
I'm convinced officers don't sleep.
Sixty years ago, when I was an officer-candidate in the Wisconsin National Guard, I found myself in a situation wherein the Chief Tactical Officer of the Wisconsin Military Academy, one Capt. William Chipman approached me, in front of God and everybody. and whispered to me the exact words you quoted " Do something mister, even if it's wrong." That encounter and those words have stayed with me for more than half a century. I've never before seen those words in print, and have never before heard them spoken, except by myself. By-the-way, if you had earned Capt. Chipman's wrath in those days, he would never raise his voice to you. His whisper was sufficient to chill your blood!
I joined my Australian Army Reserve tank unit as Trooper in a Centurion gunner and progressed through the ranks until Sargent before I was commissioned. The benefits were that I know all the excuses that my troops would come up with in those days we had M113A1’s. I subsequently went on to Command my old Regiment (remember this is Australia and we follow British tradition) which still had M113A1 (with T50 Turrets and a 50/30 combination), Medium Recon Vehicle which had Scorpion turrets on M113A1 bodies, TLC, Fitters tracks and M113A1 Fitters tracks. Whist I was recommended to be promoted to Brigadier I ran out of time as at that stage we had to retire at 55 so I recognise the comments by the Chieftain, I retired as a full Colonel after two postings in that role.
Way back when I was a cadet, and I'm not sure if I was told this or figured it out, I learned that there are really four kinds of answers you can come up with during training. There's the right answer, the right wrong answer, the wrong answer, and no answer. The right answer is the one that meets the objective and nobody gets hurt. A wrong answer is something like somebody misreads a compass and gets lost, somebody falls out of a tree trying to do an improvised field recce, or the like. No answer means you stand there blubbering, trying to think of something to do until the instructor gets bored and calls on someone lese. Most training scenarios were actually designed to get you to generate the right wrong answer.
Getting the right answer the first time around isn't necessarily what's expected, because it doesn't create what are now known as "teachable moments". The instructor can then point out why the selected answer was wrong, and what makes the actual right answer the right answer.
Ehm... What happen to the "Right Wrong Answer"?
@@marcoflumino Was gonna ask that.
@@marcoflumino They have it at the end, perhaps it could have been clearer. Sounds like giving a sort-of right answer, that the instructor can say, "Good! But here's a better option."
@@marcoflumino It's "You screwed up, but in the way we wanted you to."
This makes me feel a lot better about that day in ROTC...
“Do something, even if it’s wrong” is something my dad always says, he probably learned it at OCS, he was an infantry officer back in the 70s. This quite an insightful take and a lot more nuanced than the usual “officers don’t know anything, NCOs do everything”. I think a lot of people just think the officer/enlisted distinction is a hold over from the old days where gentlemen didn’t want to associate with the common rabble, but it’s much more than that. It’s a crucible to find the next generation of generals, people who have to make decisions that affect the lives of thousands or potentially millions. “Hey you, some 24 year old out of college, go be responsible for 30 men, many of whom are older, more experienced, with vastly different life experiences to you. If you can do that and not majorly screw up then you might be worthy of more responsibility.”
Would have loved to see if I could have done it, unfortunately Crohn’s disease ended my career before it got started.
Great guidance and summation of the officer life. The CO who told 2LT Moran he just needed to know what wrong looked like was brilliant.
The only anecdote I will add on the differences between officer and enlisted comes from a Gunnery Sergeant in OCS when I mistakenly called him "sir" during night land nav (there was zero ilum). He retorted angrily, "No, I work for a living!"
A classic line I learned in Basic Training, US Army, Ft. Polk, LA 1972. Geoff Who has used that line too many times.
A sidenote from Sweden regarding the enlisted before officer. We have a conscription army and you do your time as an enlisted befoer you CAN go to officer school. No this time can be as short as 9 months but is more often 12-18 months. I dont know how long the minimum time is in the US but this seems to be a resonable idea to give future officers some idea of "life in the trenches" (as 95% of the time as conscriptet is training it is seldom wasted time.)
At the moment there is no prior enlistment requirements to become a officer in the us military. There mustangs which are prior enlisted officers. Prior enlisted from what I have seen are given more opportunities to become officers.
Similar in Finland. Every grunt everywhere gets the mandatory 6o days of basic training about basic soldiering. Then it is first phase of NCO-training (not everybody of course) and after that some are sent to reserve officer training and some to reserve NCO-training. Basically if you want to apply to higher training for officer you must have at least NCO-training from basic service. At least that was the case.
typical enlisted contracts are 6 years acitve (Guard/Reserves) or 4 years active for Active duty and then 2 years inactive (Guard/Reserve) 4 inactive for Active duty in the US.
Granted, I had a very limited perspective as a US enlisted man, but I found that mustangs were always very hit or miss, and often miss. Too often, they'd end up being the NCOs they've been for years and forget to do "officer things." I had one company commander who literally chewed my ass about my haircut; he was fired a few months later-not because of the haircut, but it was a symptom of the problem. He could have been doing his job and letting my SSgt do his, but he didn't. Purebred (?) officers were much more predictable. They'd start out optimistic and our booger-eating shit-flinging ways would demoralize most of them within a year, after which, most of them would become decent. Maybe not as good as the very small number of very good mustangs after the same amount of time, but decent. I'll take a decent officer every time over a very good officer some of the time.
@@CharliMorganMusic This is so true. I was a previous enlisted, but I was taught well at OCS. Other previous enlisted though, were prone to serious micromanaging and contesting with their NCO's about how they should be doing things. That never ended up well.
Lets be clear: The word "office" is right there in the word "Officer". Be aware.
A pilot's office is at 50,000ft.
Regarding rank has its privileges, the Marine Corps has an interesting take on this notion. While in garrison, our officers, to a degree, do get certain privileges over the enlisted, better barracks, their own mess/chow hall or at least their own corner. But in the field, troop welfare is emphasized and they're not supposed to get any special privileges. Whenever we were in the field and we got hot food trucked in, the officers and Staff NCOs would always be the ones doing the serving and the line would form in reverse order of rank with junior most Pvt. being the first in line and going up from there. They'd sleep in the same tents of hooches the enlisted side did, even if they would all share a GP tent or hooch with fewer of them in it. Of course, not all of our officers followed this practice exactly. One time, when we had a night field exercise, we had set up a watch with every other person up on watch while the other half slept. Our officers didn't bother standing watch and all slept and our CO/OIC didn't like that and (I heard) he showed his displeasure at his brother officers by throwing a smoke grenade in their tent(s).
As far as commanding a desk and not getting to do all of the fun stuff, this also applies to the enlisted side of the house as well. It just takes longer is all. Instead of driving a desk starting around O4 for an officer, and enlisted person doesn't get a desk until around E7 - E8. So, instead of getting a desk at around the beginning of the middle of your career, and enlisted man doesn't get their until nearer the end of their career.
One last thing as an interesting little aside, I've read that in the old Soviet Union, they didn't have a true NCO corps like we do in the West. Most of their NCOs were draftees like everybody else that were selected early on for extra training and made NCOs. So their Cpls & Sgts really had no more experience, sometimes less, than the troops under them. The majority of what NCOs do in the West was handled by the officers. Seniority on the enlisted side of their house wasn't determined strictly by rank so much as by time in service with draftees towards the end of their term carrying more authority and seniority than those with less time in, to include junior NCOs.
Always taught my brother that there are two decisions. One is a calculated and well thought out one. And then there are Military decisions. A military decision might be right, might be wrong, but it's a decision and it's done quick. And in real life you encouter situations requiring the latter way more than the former. So train in be able to do that.
I think those "military decisions" are those decisions made then with then-available information which may be insufficient and misleading.
@@vksasdgaming9472 A military decision is a decision you made with whatever info you have RIGHT NOW, and is a decision made based on that info RIGHT NOW. It's called that as you don't have time to sit and think about 10 ways to best jump into a foxhole, when things get loud.
@@Kar4ever3 That is not a military decision - it is just act of self-preservation where there is no decision to make. Military decision is more like company commander hears reports about enemy activity (or what looks like it) from three different directions and has not enough troops to investigate every incident. So he must choose what is to be done with available resources. Is it real? Is it deception?
@@vksasdgaming9472 Whatever you say. We're not talking on the same level. I'm ending it here.
Having gone all the way through the ranks, from Pte to Maj before retiring, I couldn't agree with you more. Looking back I am glad I did it the way I did however that isn't for everyone. There isn't enough time to learn the skills of very senior leadership Col and above if you go all the way through the ranks and therefore you need direct entry officers. All the way through the ranks get to fill nice niche rolls as officers and are great for teaching junior officers, you might say we fill a void between non commissioned and commissioned however that direct entry will always be needed. Having done both I enjoyed both being commissioned and non commissioned both were great fun and mostly enjoyable and thats really why you should do any job.
Retired Senior Chief here..fairly well said, especially from an Officer! I think Recruiters should have to use this as a decision making aid for potential recruits! Nicely done! I still think the Chief's Mess is nicer than the Wardroom though....
Well as they say Chiefs the backbone of the Navy.
Adrimals go nowhere without a Chief's approval.
You mean the Goats locker, I hated having to go get my Senior from their as an Ensign.
I was one of those "butter bars" during the Army's transition from a draft to a volunteer force at the end of the Vietnam War. The quick promotions of officers and NCO's in the draft Army left the inexperienced adrift with muddled leadership examples from above or below. One of the greatest changes made for the volunteer force was the creation of NCO advanced schools and training that are equivalent in quality to the those available to officers. In a few years it created an NCO population of incomparable competence. The officer/NCO rolls noted in this video are now firmly in place and have moved the professional force light years ahead in effectiveness as demonstrated time and again since the late 1980's. Officers and NCO's may not be interchangeable but both are respected professionals in their areas of responsibility.
I served ‘79-‘83. Still had quite a few incompetent NCOs with many incompetents joining the junior NCO ranks then.
You were serving at a time when there was not the same respect for the military as there is today - thank you! I was in from '71-"77 and a lot of the earlier generation NCO's were probably still serving out their time when you were in. I can only assume that the improvements took some time. The other thing was that the initial recruiting standards of the volunteer force were not what they ideally should have been ("The Army wants to join you!"). Hence, some of the younger NCO's may not have been the best.
I can see where BNCOC and ANCOC really help to make a better NCO. Training on those areas you don't know about and aren't trained on in your unit. Leadership isn't taught at the unit level so schooling is good.
@@whoysradt What "respect"? What we have today is full on propaganda and brainwashing into army cult much like glorification of Werhmacht in Nazi Germany. US public reaction to Vietnam was the sane one - why respect people doing tons of war crimes in blatantly illegal war of aggression to support fascist regime murdering its own population (funny how no one today ever asks why south Vietnamese fought for the northern cause in such big numbers)? Alas, US army took note and did everything to stomp out sanity and conscience from the public with Nazi-like propaganda, and thanks to that, almost no one opposed countless wars of aggression USA started in last 25 years (Serbia and Iraq in particular, both started on blatantly lying US propaganda smear) and millions of dead they left behind...
@@KuK137 I'm sorry to see you are stuck in a time warp from 1968. Every country has a military to defend its territory and interests (well, maybe not Iceland). in the case of the US those interests are world wide. The use of the military by this country is a political decision strictly controlled by the President in conjunction with the congress which must allocate the funds. Your attitude led many people in this country during the Vietnam War to insult and denigrate individual uniformed servicemen (volunteers and draftees) for honorably carrying out their required duties. Thank God that has changed. I recommend you reread the constitution of the United States regarding war powers.
In this country no branch of the military could possibly rewrite the history of the Vietnam war. There are thousands of published histories and memoirs with every detail, both good and bad. Don't forget to read the parts about the hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese who left their country to avoid living under North Vietnamese communist rule or the parts about those who stayed and then were reeducated or disappeared. I also recommend you read up on the history of Hitler's Germany if you want classic examples of propaganda, wars of aggression, and racial extermination. The US fought to end that.
At the end of the day most of my officers were pretty good men & woman. Honestly the best gift any officers can give is the gift of listening.
I know a few NCOs, officers and admirals and all of them are great people. But the one dividing factor between an NCO and an officer is the drive. I wouldn't say it's callousness, but being able to discard ones humanity and personal anguish to successfully lead through a battle and keep the greater goal in mind, is the key factor in a good officer. Whether that be in the direct leadership role or being an admiral or general, losses are to be expected and the dividing factor is not getting distracted by losses or non-essential information. An NCO has to present the same qualities, but on a smaller scale.
As a fiction writer, this in-depth information is invaluable. You can’t write any character convincingly without understanding the choices and decisions they face now and in the past. Same reason I talk to lawyers and accountants about their jobs, but more interesting.
Massive respect for the Chieftain, to start. And he's right, officers and enlisted are not the same. When I was an aircraft maintainer in the Air Force, it was was made clear to me that the only thing officers were qualified to do was hand me the tools I asked them to, and that none of them were qualified to tell me how to do my job. They had their jobs, and i had mine.
As a proud NCO I wholeheartedly agree, officers figure out what needs to be done, NCOs figure out how to do it and the privates do it. NCOs are the backbone of any army, the officers can scream orders from the rear all they want but the privates are not going to do a damned thing unless an NCO goes first and leads by example.
I concur whole heartily with your assessment of the difference between officers and enlisted. And agree with your thoughts on not having the need or requirement to serve as an enlisted soldier prior to becoming an officer. I came in the Army as an enlisted soldier, primary to get a good bonus and wanting to see what it was about, but I do not think it made me a better officer. All it really gave me was some experience as a soldier, but more importantly the motivation to become an officer, once I realize that is what I want to do with my life. During my 30 years in the Army, I will go on to teach USMA and ROTC cadets and my enlisted time just became stories to entertain them. When they would ask what the main difference between officers and NCOs was, I would say that NCOs look at the letter of the law and officers the spirit. We (officers) need to see the “big” picture and ensure that the plan meets the commander’s intent. The NCOs and soldiers will make it happen.
Good luck on your promotion from 2nd LT Field Grade to 1st LT Field Grade, but what I have seen, you should not need it. Also, it is nice to be called “Colonel”, even if you are a “light” one!
I recall reading a book by an Lt in Vietnam where he said the reason an officer gets all the perks is that there will come a time when the enemy fire is heavy and his unit is pinned, he looks to his Sargent and sees that he is scared as well. At this point he has to stand up, say “ follow me boys” and charge. BTW, he did exactly that and broke his unit out of the ambush.
My father joined the RAF in 1939 BEFORE the war started and remained an airframe tech his whole life with a bunch of recommendations for his work /expertise (repair of battlefield damage) He helped train the army's new (in the 1950's) air corps ( Detmold) In the 60's he was one of the 'go to' instructor's the RAF used to 'train' US officers in technique sustems for the repair of battle damaged aircrft, it wasnt that the US didnt know how, it was the fact it took more than twice as long to train USAAF personnel to do the same job as an RAF 'erk' and still not do the job to the same standards. With all this in mind I asked dad back in the 70's WHY he never opted for a commission, his rather flat answer was that if he became an officer he'd never get his hands dirty repairing aircraft again, he'd simply be telling other people what to do and that wasnt his cup of tea! A veteran of the phony war, the battle of Britain , Malta and the Western Desert that was an interesting comment I never forgot. Your talk xonfirms my opinion that dad knew what he wanted...and got it!
Col. David Hackworths autobiography "About Face" is an excellent source on this very subject.
Great read, recommended
Like my dad said, "More people die from indecision."
The best one sentence description I've heard of an officer's responsibility I read many years ago, so it's probably not exact. It was, I think, from Prince Andrew, chewing out a junior officer during the Falklands war: "Her Majesty made you an officer because she thought you would know when to disobey orders." It's a nice comment on the difference between tactics and strategy, and why the latter is the officer's responsibility.
No Frederik II
@@thodan467
„Ich habe ihn zum General gemacht, damit er weiß, wann er ungehorsam sein muß. “
A sport I participate in is orienteering (navigation using map and compass). Related to making decisions one thing that is often when you have to chose a route it is important to make a decent decision quickly - don't spend a ton of time trying to determine what is the best route because the time you lose in a slightly subpar route is made up by the time it takes to determine the best route. Also once you have chosen a route follow through with it, don't go waffling around second guessing yourself (unless you learn something new that might change your decision).
A very interesting presentation. Just for interest, in the South African army of the early 90's, the process was very different. Firstly, we were all conscripts. About two weeks into our basic training, the various specialised schools started arriving to select candidates. I was one of those selected by the first such school. We were immediately transported to that school's base, which im my case was the Infantry School. There, we were put through the remainder of basic training, and then straight into Junior Leader's course. About 2/3rds through the course, we were divided into Candidate Officers and those who would become NCOs. This was done based on performance/aptitude/character. At no point did we have any choice with regard to which we wanted to be, nor in which branch of the army we wanted to be. And despite also being called Commissioned or Non-commissioned officers, we did not resign or anything else, and as officers we got basically the same pay as equivalent NCOs and we did not have to pay for our own kit or meals. The jobs though seem to have been very similar.
I first joined as an officer but then resigned to be enlisted, as I didn't wanted to make decisions and just "have fun". Trouble is I advanced trough NCO ranks enough that I reached a position of leadership and now I have to be the bad guy. I don't mind training and teaching the privates, but damn, I hate to be the bad guy, and when I tried to take blame for being relaxed with my troop they reprimended everyone under me except me because "otherwise they are going to think they can do as they please and you'll save them", and then some of them hated me anyway because I wasn't harder on them.
This video would’ve been a great help last spring, when I was trying to decide between college/ROTC and joining up as a private.
I ended up picking the college-> commission route. No regrets so far.
If the SMP program is still a thing, and there is a nearby Guard/Reserve unit, of your desired Branch (assuming you are Army ROTC), that will give you some practical experience, on both sides. This practical experience will serve you well as a cadet, and later, at your Branch Course.
The general is to know who the enemy is. The captain is to know where the enemy will be coming from. The sergeant is to know where to dig the foxholes. And we grunts have to know, nah, we just have to dig.
Great video. This is the stuff that makes me come back to this channel again and again.
Thank you. You are quite correct the Officers create the battle plan. The NCOs implements that plan while directing the Enlisted in executing the plan. There must be feed back both up and down the chain to ensure the plan is successful. Because any who have served know from experience, No plan survives first contact intact. Start with the 80 percent solution and work from there to improve said solution. As a senior NCO I always saw it a one of my duties to impart as must training and knowledge to the young officers I served with, and derived a great deal of satisfaction in watching them excel in their perspective carrier fields.
I find these insights very interesting. As a US Navy veteran I see that the dynamics much different. In the Navy there is a huge chasm between officers and enlisted. Officers have their own mess and eat off of china plates and served by junior enlisted. Also the role of Chiefs in the Navy(E7,8,9) occupy a very different space than their counterparts in the Army, USMC and AF. They wore the same Khaki uniforms as officers, had their own berthing and their own mess. They also performed a lot of the leadership functions that might be done by O1's or O2's in other branches. As the old saying went Chiefs the backbone of the Navy.
They also pretty much replace the Army and Marine Warrant Officer.
Excellent review of what to expect and good luck on your promotion!
I turned down the commission in order to stay with my friends with whom I trained and lived for so long. My captain made me a vehicle commander and a second in command of the platoon so I spent my time doing officers work anyway. I finished my enlistment driving a desk anyway. That is why I haven't accepted further enlistment. I got bored and I had better charier choices. Furthermore, I have no problem with leading man to their death what I do not want to do is send them to die, if you know what I mean.
I really appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I'm thinking about trying to commission right now and appreciate the information
My father joined the RAF in 1939 as Airman. He left as a Flying Officer. He preferred being an officer.
Back then, the US, Brits, and Germans still had enlisted pilots.
Excellent insight. Thank you
The point about "make a decision", brought to mind that old saying from my time in the Navy. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
Retired Navy here. I find your perspective very interesting and insightful. Interesting to compare and contrast against Navy Enlisted vs Officer.
I was never in the military, but I did supervise people, and worked as a manager in private industry.
I agree with your assessment.
I rose up from the bottom, which gave me some insights that some other managers didn't have, but it was management skills that they actually needed me to have.
And that is exactly what every organization should expect from its managers, management skills, not technical skills.
A manager needs to know what his department can do, what it is expected to do, and how it does it, but there's no need to know every detail of how. That's what supervisors are for.
Great vid as usual cheiftain
Having been an NCO, I would agree with what you say, a good rapport and respect between the NCO's and the Officer makes life much better for everyone.
I think he's pretty much spot-on here. One of the questions I used to ask they young enlisted who approached me about going to OCS - Why do you want to be an officer? If the answer involved more money, less work, or bossing people around I would discourage that soldier - for what that was worth.
I used to warn them also of exactly what was said here - you hit O4 and lose the tank / chopper / fun toys. Maybe you'll get to see it again as O5, but don't count on it.
I'm one of the "You'll pry my tank from my cold, dead, hands" guys. Resisted all attempts to promote me out of it - although I eventually got stuck in the S3 shop, driving that desk, ordering the ammo and coordinating other peoples tank fun. Something something about "Get out of the way old man! Other people want to tank!"
Very edifying. I wish someone would have told me all this 40 years ago. Thanks very much.
Appreciate the guidance sir! Been a fan of your content since I was a specialist and through out college. Commissioning from ROTC this May into active duty Armor.
Thanks, this was actually super helpful. I'm in college right now and was thinking about joining the armor core after I get out if my engineering degree doesn't land me a job I enjoy. Great stuff, keep up the good work : )
A retired Canadian artillery major here. I would say the nut shell in which you summed it up is very fitting.
As to rank having its privileges, a British officer (RWF) on exchange with the R22eR remarked to me that the only privilege Canadian officers had was that they were last on and first off parade. Proper thing too, lest they learn what the NCOs really thought of what just transpired.
Always interesting, thanks.
Really enjoyed this fantastic video.
Thank you very much for this. You've clarified things for me a lot.
It counters obsolescence as well..
The radio antenna.. generator... radio set etc... change over time...
Hence why a commander should concentrate on capabilities of platforms sensors and weapon systems.. not the technical aspects...
Joke’s on you, signal is changing so fast that I can’t even keep up with capabilities and just stick with HF.
I served over 28 years as an army officer and am a ROTC product. I taught Army ROTC for 8 years and worked at a military academy for another 6.
Whether or not someone was a solid cadet had nothing to do with being prior enlisted. Being prior enlisted had more to do with their financial resources than anything. Some needed money for school. Also being a super star student didn’t have as much to do with it but they usually were solid students. There is also a differentiation between a good cadet and officer. It’s a similar but different game. My officer basic course we had officers who we could see played the cadet game well but were weaker officers.
What makes the biggest difference is your qualities of character and decision making. Being a good officer is about what you do now not where you came from. Your history does influence things but a good person figures it out.
After promotion from 2LT prior service didn’t matter. As a captain no one cares where you came from but were you a good and fair leader, solid decision maker and did you take care of your people. As a field grade, it was nothing more than a passing conversation of your earlier status since you’ve had so many jobs since then.
A good person becomes a good officer. An average person can be trained to be a good officer. I’m the example of that. A bad person will usually rise to one level of their competence and find the door...or the door will find them.
Talk about a flashback to 1976... the year I went in the Army... you sound like our Master Sergeant, because he said much the same thing way back when. He use to give our lieutenant a hard time for not asking for help when it was clear he was in over his head.
Excellent presentation. As an NCO first in the U.S. Marines (Weapons, Vietnam) and later as an NCO with the 11th ACR (Armored Scout, East German Border), I arrived at similar crossroads. After six years, I was offered the opportunity to attend OCS, which I declined and left the service. Looking back, being an NCO was the best time. Whether directing fire in combat or commanding a track on the border.
Now retired from a senior executive officer for my organization, I never feel as if I didn't do something worth remembering. P.S.. Also member of the Border Legion.
Former officer here. Excellent overall. I would add two things. Officers write the letters to the next of kin. An indication of the resposibility they hold. My experience in the Armored Cav was that NCO's were resposibility for the individual soldiers' training and discipline. The officer (even in the Platoon) was responsible for UNIT training and operations. NCO were vehicle commanders (even in the vehicle the LT was riding in) but the officer lead the Unit.
In my officer training we had the same saying "Making a wrong decision quickly is better than being unable to make one at all". I guess that just goes with the job, no matter what army you do it in.
As an academy trained 2LT I wish everyone would have this presentation or similar on the first and last day of training. What you said about being a PL perfectly mirrors what I feel after a year of leading my first PLT
hope the youtube algorithm loves this! & thank you for the interesting view from the other side.
Excellent presentation.
That was a very good argument, especially when you described how a young platoon leader feels useless in front of hie experienced troops, I know exactly the feeling. Imagine now to be a reserve officer that comes back from time to time to his platoon and tries to keep up with the business. NOT an easy job. In the end of the day you need to ask yourself "can I make decisions and stand up to them?"
Chieftain: I would say you are right on target with your observations. Here are a couple of my thoughts. I joined the Army National Guard in 1978 as a cannoneer, I loved the big guns. At Basic Training/AIT, I also found it amazing at the number of soldiers who had trouble just following orders. Physically Basic/AIT was demanding, mentally it was nothing. OCS at Ft. Benning on the other hand, was basically the opposite, mentally very challenging, physically not as demanding. I eventually commanded a ARNG field artillery battery for about 2 years. I too dreaded the annual request for OCS candidates. This was a couple of years after Viet-Nam, and the unit did not have a deep core of NCO's and I hated sending troops to OCS when I knew they would be good NCOs and that was there preference.
I had a senior NCO who in civilian life owned a company that manufactured building supplies, it was very successful and he employed over 100 workers. I asked him why he was a NCO and his response was that he enjoyed being an NCO in the Guard because he didn't have to make decisions. In his business, he was always making decisions that affected the company, whether to hire or fire people, whether to buy new equipment or not, whether to accept a demanding delivery order or not, decisions of that nature. As a NCO, he said he was told what to do and he made sure it got done right. As a NCO, he could make things happens without all the responsibilities.
Oh, by the way, my son is named after my 1st howitzer section chief. That's how much I respected him.
Had my own mech infantry squad (pre-Bradleys) and was a company commander (for many years). My NCO time definitely helped with being an officer, but maybe that's just an infantry thing. Your story about cleaning the officers' quarters I found appalling. I had a friend who had been in the navy and said navy officers never got dirty. So, I guess you're right about the egalitarian US Army (it was especially so in the infantry). While serving duty as a Specialist RTO for the company commander, he asked me once to retrieve his bed roll from the jeep. I did so without question, but when he asked (sarcastically?) if I was going to set it up for him, as I walked away I replied that "I'm not sleeping in it". He laughed. I've often thought that anybody who advocates for socialism should have to complete an enlistment in the infantry.
The best part about being an officer is you know so much more about what is happening (almost as much as being the CO's RTO), but leading my own squad was probably the highlight of my career (that platoon was the best).
In my entire military career in the Army can I only remember one time when I wasn't sharing a room with at least a half dozen other people and that was at FAOBC. Showing up and being told I wasn't sleeping in a barracks was very confusing.
Well done, sir.
As some who was enlisted and then took a commission in the early 1990s I've spent a long time looking for something that accurately described the difference between commissioned and non-commissioned officers. You hit the nail on the head.
Thank you. Please keep up the great work.
On point Sir. And this is something I wish I had seen prior to Weaps asking me if I wanted to go do 90 day wonder. I declined as, mostly due to being an un-informed deck ape, but that decision also carried over to my civilian career (technical guru/problem solver/ass chewer) with not going for manager track.
My first platoon was very strong, and I let the Platoon SGT keep the machine running. I even let him write his own NCOERs (not that I was lazy, but I didn't want to write something that harmed his career because I thought he was excellent). One thing I always used to say when I was a LT, "You can think outside of your box, never EVER think outside of your CO's box," as they'll lose their minds. LTs in my day were often beat down for thinking better than those above them, or doing the 'simple and makes sense in real life' option if it didn't make those above them look good. the thing they REALLY needed to teach in ROTC/OCS is everything is about how it looks, regardless if it makes sense or not. It's one of the reasons I got so frustrated that I resigned and went civilian. the final straw was when a solider of ours got killed in an accident and the ONLY thing any officer around (there weren't many as the Brigade was down at Ft Irwin for NTC and I was running the rear detachment for the Battalion) cared about was making sure everyone's backsides were covered and again, how it looked. And BTW, I was 28 when I pinned on, not prior service. I think my age gave my some advantage because i was more focused and not prone to shenanigans as most LTs as they're usually about 21 when they pin on.
Great video. From personal experience, when you get up there and start riding the desk, the willingness to make decisions morphs into the willingness to sign things... Many officers balk at that.
Nick, this was an excellent discussion of the subject!
I got out of college and couldn't find a job so I enlisted in the USAF as an Airman because I believed it was the eglatarian thing to do. Five years later I made Staff Sergeant and was thoroughly bored as I had mastered my technical field and was no longer feeling challenged. I applied for OCS and got a commission as an Air Intelligence Officer. I loved every second of it for the rest of my career. In the Air Force at least, INTEL was always at the heart of air operations and command decision-making.
I do believe being a Mustang made me a better officer because I had an intimate understanding of the problems of the enlisted and NCOs not to mention earning their respect. But if I had it to do again I would have gone to OCS right out of college. You're comment about losing time at the end of your career was spot on as I retired as a major after 23 years. I found myself heartily agreeing with you point after point so I won't expound except one thing. As a new Air Force Officer I believe instead of "learning to make a decision" we had to "learn how to "delegate!" That's a lot harder than it sounds.
An Airman and 2Lt's job is the same...To learn about living and functioning in the Air Force and their future place in it.
On RHIP, when I was a 2LT the Air Force Dining Facilities still had a roped off area for officers and the top three NCOs. I rarely ate there at home station as I took most of my meals at the Officers Club or off Base. The USAF Officers Clubs on the big bases were quite posh back in the day! 😉
As a retired AF E-8 that was Intel you gave a very balanced view. And it worked exactly as you said at least when I was in the Army in the Field Arty my first 6 years in. I just want to add that SNCO's in fields such as Intel Analyst have to come up with the big picture and make hard choices too. It was a very symbiotic relationships with the Majors and above that I worked with. And even my last posting was Wing IG, I got whatever I wanted from the Wing King. I just had to do it in private, not in front of the lower enlisted.
As a retired US Army O-6 with company, battalion and brigade command time, this was spot on.
I do want to share two points. As a battalion commander I had to endorse selectees for OCS. This required an interview. After the usual pleasantries my deciding question was " why do you want to be an officer?". This question is like the Kobayashi Maru from Star Trek. There really isn't a right answer. Its a test of character.
My final point is from my dearly departed Dad who spent 21 years in the US Army as enlisted and NCO. His deciding metric on leadership was could this individual lead a platoon to the latrines.
Medical, rather than military here. I’d assumed it was a responsibility Vs accountability thing, so interesting to hear the Chieftans take on it!
First of all congratulations on your P status. Just listening to this makes me believe that you are a rare officer indeed! I was asked about the Green to Gold program when I was just 2 years into my enlistment. As a specialist I was told I showed exceptional leadership ability and was not afraid to make decisions. Nor was I worried about taking the backlash for the wrong ones. It is one of my few regrets for my time in the Army and the Armor Corps. I would gladly talk of my others, but they are not relevant here. Great video by the way
One of the better videos I have watched in a while.
It is my experience that in a real "situation", in a "game", and in games. making a decision quickly can be more important tyhat making the right decision slowly. The problem however is whne you are the one following,a nd you know, or think you know that that decision is wrong.. So now you can follow because you should but things may go wrong, with possinle harm to yuorself. Or you dont follow .. and things will go wrong for someone.
So yeah, doing what you are told no matter what is hard. Even though you know you should sometimes.
He's dead on that a platoon leader is basically an officer in field training. And that they're not strictly necessary. I remember being 1st squad leader and acting platoon sergeant for a year because we shared a 1st lieutenant with 2 other platoons, and the platoon sergeant functioned as platoon leader.
And in the Swedish conscript system, a mortar platoon consisted of a Captain with a Lieutenant and equiv of a Jr. Lt. two Sgt/cadets responsible for the training. One Conscript Platoon leader and a number of conscript Corporal squad leaders (2/squad) as well as conscript specialists (radio men and drivers) in addition to five squads of conscript privates as mortar and ammo handling crew.
The comissioned officers and NCOs thus served at peace time stations at least two levels beneath their rank for two years at a time before they were qualified to apply to the officers academy for two years of studies before promotion to the next rank. These alternating cycles of a minimum of four years between each promotion topped out at the rank of Lt. Col.
All higher ranks were by appointment.
"Hey, boss, whats the difference between a Lance Corporal and a Lieutenant?"
"A Lance Corporal has been promoted at least once!"
And with that.... This Lance Corporal had the privilege of getting promoted to Lance Corporal twice... 6 months later
As a 26 year retired Chief E-7, third gen military, and Army brat this is the best explanation of how system works. Of course you can vary the process from service to service but this is the BASE group think of the process the military wants people to understand. Well done Sir.
Having spent 18 years in the ranks and now 15 as an officer, (10 more to go,,,,,yes I joined young),, this was bob on!.....It turns out I had leadership......and decision making ......but Fun kept me from moving on up....still does! Seeing both sides is vital for this debate. I've seen too many ex NCOs not grow as Officers since they didn't quite grasp the change in role.
I love these bits of insight.
I know I would never make it as an NCO, I think to much and talk back to much cause just doing what your told because that is what you should do does not appear in my personal operational manual.
As an old Firstclass Corpsman, you nailed it, Sir.
LOL I read the title as "0, 1, Commission". I can still hear Jethro Clampet saying, "Ought, ought, carry ought..." on one of the shows.
Thank you Chieftain. This was very informative!
25+ year Army veteran, and eventually retired as a 1SG. I TOTALLY agree with Matt Ohrstrom....this video could very well be required viewing prior to making any decision about career paths within the Army, or even the military in general. Very well done my friend!
"...people can be commanded by the rank, but are led by the person." Thank you Sir, outstanding statement! Retired USAF MSgt here, really enjoyed the talk, always enjoy your videos. My dad did tell me once, "Do SOMETHING, even if you do it wrong!"
I have to say this clarifies a great deal of things even in my knowledge worker and c-suite leadership transition in the business world. The two dynamics in corporate life are exactly the same, and I've had quandaries with why a mentor of mine pegged me in my career as a the prior vs. the later.
Now that my confidence has been elevated, I'm about to be promoted to a VP .. but this makes all the difference in knowing the singular question that has plagued me since leaving my military college.
Totally right time for me to see this.
Perfect assessment
Nailed it. As a butterbar, I reported aboard trained as a communications officer and assigned to the (propulsion) machinery division. My LPO (one MM1 John Dentone) took me aside before quarters my first day. "Mr. Hartsig, you're in charge. Put your hands behind your back and don't touch anything until you can explain to me how it works." In a few months, I became the only officer qualified as Engineering Officer of the Watch, running the ships propulsion plant underway. He ended his career as Master Chief of the Command at RTC Great Lakes. I made it to commander, retiring at 16 years during the Clinton draw down, taking the early retirement as I would no longer be able to go to sea and do ASW, my fun thing.
And yes, shipboard in the wardroom (at least in destroyers) meals are served, but no formal wear at least. And if I was in my coveralls, I just ate on the mess decks. Better company often enough.
That flimsy chair he sat on for lunch at Fort Bliss?
Price: $1247.36
They got it on the cheap I see
Tactical sitting device M69?
@@Paveway-chan
During WWII it would have the "Tactical seating device, M1"
How do you think they pay for the black ops? Schmuck.
@@UkrainianPaulie our tax dollars????
"Jede Entscheidung ist besser als keine Entscheidung"..."Every decision is better than no decision"
"Mach etwas, auch wenn es falsch ist." Auch im Zivilleben ein guter Vorsatz.
Great video Chief. Would like to see one on Warrant Officers when you get the time.