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In the “Titanic: 20 Years Later” special about the movie from a few years back, they actually built a mock up the davits and lifeboats on the Titanic. They had a bunch of men working as fast as they could, and it still took nearly 10 minutes (as I recall) to lower a boat. The take away was that even if the ship had been equipped with more lifeboats, they likely wouldn’t have been able to launch them all in time.
@@HyperVegitoDBZ well muscles yeah but also training and safety and knwong what to do, also if you crowd around a task or won’t always mean it will get done
I've seen an interview with, I believe, Ken Marschall, who mentioned some of the survivors he met recounting how much the davits were bending under the weight (and the loud creaking they did). During Cameron's film, the davits (built with an even greater degree of strength for margin of safety) did the same unnerving thing. It's no wonder people didn't wish to board the lifeboats until the situation looked more dire.
@@oriontaylor That may be true, but the lifeboat davits actually held up on Titanic pretty well, especially when boats 10 and 13 each launched with nearly 60 people onboard.
The fact that taking your chances on an open row boat was very likely to be more dangerous than staying with the ship, is too often overlooked, even in modern times. There have been many cases where crews of pleasure craft / sailboats bailed out to their liferaft and ended up drowning, only for the abandoned yacht to be found still afloat days or weeks later. An infamous occasion where this happened was the 1979 Fastnet Race tragedy.
It may diverge a bit but it reminds me to proper motorcycle braking technique. Just like buoyancy is the life of your ship/boat, friction between your tires and the road is the life of your motorcycle. As long as you've got buoyancy or friction, you stay, remain calm, and do all you can to control the situation or at least reduce the risks of the aftermath. In fact I think it's also the case with airplanes and airspeed. Panicking and bailing out will often be more dangerous. You do everything you can until the last possible second, because once you leave, you're no longer in control.
There's a saying in sailing/boating "only ever step UP into a lifeboat" or "never step down into a lifeboat" ie you only enter the lifeboat, when your main boat is effectively underwater/gone. There was also the Tony Bulimore example, where they thought maybe he was still alive, cause a new epirb was activated, but overhead views showed the boat fully upsidedown & no lifeboat in sight. He was inside an air pocket in the upsidedown boat & I think he was there for about a week or 2 before he was rescued. I haven't looked it up to freshen my memory, just going by what I recall about the event when it happened
Modern life-boats for big ships are much more complicated and dependable affairs from those old simple boats. Their almost like starship escape pods some of them.
It's easy for us to look back with modern eyes and blame White Star Line and Harland and Wolf for negligence. But the Titanic was indeed built to withstand every type of damage that had been previously documented as befalling an ocean going ship. As discussed in the video about the damage she sustained from the iceberg collision, it dealt a worse-than-worst-case scenario of damage, and the treacherous icy waters made it difficult for rescue vessels to get there in time. The Titanic was a victim of Murphy's Law.
Ships sink for three reasons, a collision with another ship and therefore rescue is easy, grounding near land so therefore rescue is easy or very heavy weather so therefore lifeboats would offer no protection. And icebergs are only present for a matter of weeks every year and its almost unheard of the them to be so far east. Normally icebergs are only found within 100-200 miles of the coast (navigational officer who has sailed those very waters and seen such ice bergs).
Its also easy to just brush off critiques at the time, ships had double hulls for 4000 years for a reason, the Great Eastern the largest ship of its time, 50 years before Titanic had a double hull, I suggest you research what happened to the Great Eastern in 1862 during its voyage to New York, its easy to sit there with modern eyes and completely brush off history for in early 20th century money was tight and ship builders had to cut costs, double hulls were usually double as expensive and required double amount of steel, White Star Line had to cut the line somewhere so they choose single hull, quicker to build, cheaper and they perfectly knew what they were doing, stop acting like people back then were idiots.
@@SMGJohn you're being a little unfair. That's like criticising airlines for not issuing parachutes when most planes in the 1920s had them. White star believed that water tight doors and compartments removed the need for double hulls, the same way airlines believe modern aviation tech means passengers will never need to bail out at altitude.
When you think about it, it was the specific circumstances in which the Titanic sank that made people believe a ship should have enough lifeboats for everyone - in the open ocean, in calm weather, sinking slowly enough to evacuate, and they had wireless so they were now able to contact other ships too far away to see distress rockets, meaning rescue could come from further away and therefore possibly after the ship had gone down (which it did). All of that came together to create a situation where getting into a lifeboat and waiting was the best possible thing you could do, when in many sinkings, especially before wireless, it wasn't.
I was fascinated a while ago to do a quick Wikipedia search and realise the worst iceberg-related sinking before Titanic only killed 81 people (or something like that). Titanic really was a Sept 11 moment for the Edwardians. Still praying for an Oceanliner Designs/Drachnifel mash-up about whether the Indefatiguable-class battlecruisers really were built to catch Lusitania-class liners!
It gets even more crazy: damage to Titanic was pretty much unique - AFAIK we do not have any other registered case of collision damaging so many compartments. Also, as mentioned by some historians - damages that sank Lusitania or Andrea Doria would have been troublesome for Titanic, but not necessary deadly.
Well the SS Pacific was supposedly sunk by an Iceberg as reported from a message in a bottle that was found in the ocean, and she had 186 souls on board.
Lady of the Lake was an Aberdeen-built brig that sank after striking an iceberg off the coast of Newfoundland in May 1833, with the loss of up to 265 passengers and crew. Only fifteen passengers and crew survived.
Despite my love for quick-ish documentaries on CZcams, I never would've imagined a channel dedicated to oceanliner history or that I would be intrigued or--even crazier--drawn deeply into the subject at all. However, you have a true talent for absolutely outstanding narration, writing, research, and visuals here, and I wish you the very best in growing this channel! It's truly a wonderful treat to watch your videos.
And I agree with you in every single word here, but I would add an observation about the fact that the auto generated subtitles on CZcams don't help at all people like me (and others that are not English native speakers) and need them for the perfect understanding of the narration. I'd like to help the channel to create subtitles in Portuguese, for example, but I haven't been answered yet by him.
I like videos like this. It shows just how complex the narrative surrounding the Titanic disaster actually is and it can’t be overly simplified to ‘arrogant Captain and not enough lifeboats’
Given lifeboats were small little boats that often didn't hold up well in heavy seas and needed rescue before the supplies ran out, I can see why White Star went over the legal limit but not all out
I've been fascinated by the Titanic since I was a kid. After years of buying into the insufficient lifeboats myth, I now realise that the number of boats wasn't the issue. What killed so many people was the speed with which the Titanic sank and the lethally cold water. Two hours and forty minutes was simply not enough time to determine the ship was sinking and evacuate the 2,200 people on board. Many people were doomed the moment the iceberg opened up her hull.
10-15 minutes in that water and you die. The only thing you can do is get drunk to counter the effects of the ice constricting your blood vessels, that's why the baker survived so long according to doctors.
The movie made it seem like they figured it out pretty quickly. There also wasn't much done drills which is something that should have been done when you think about but no government legally required them to do so.
Hello Michael, You are one of the most amazing presenters, having the talent and ability to keep the interest in the subject going from start to finish. My grandmother personally knew a lady and her daughter who survived the Titanic disaster because of the life boats. Thank you for an amazing CZcams Channel.
All of this NEEDS to be said more often! Excellent work combating, if you will, the incredibly over-simplified “they should’ve had more lifeboats” assumption that the general public makes. I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this video :) ESPECIALLY since you used “surprising” in the title instead of something ridiculous like “shocking”. I’ve pretty much been completely desensitized by the word “shocking”, thanks to the thousands of clickbait articles out there, haha!
@@OceanlinerDesigns I love your videos on the shipping and shipbuilding industry. My great grandfather Albert Horswill was a crewman aboard the Rms Oceanic and was transferred to the Rms Titanic for it’s ill fated maiden voyage. He survived the wreck when Officer Murdoch ordered him and six other crewmen onto cutter lifeboat one on the starboard side. There were five first class passengers on this lifeboat as well, three of whom were Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon and their secretary Mabel Francatelli. Due to the fact there were only 12 aboard when it had capacity for 40. The press accused the Duff Gordons of bribing my great grandfather and the other crewmen. This negatively impacted all of them for the remainder of their lives. Keep up the incredible work, I’d love to see a video on the Edmund Fitzgerald some day!!
@@OceanlinerDesigns hmm most interesting analysis i saw about titanic pointed out that... even with the "small" number of lifeboats launched... they weren't FULL. Not all of the possible room on the lifeboats was actually used. this also goes with the idea that more wouldn't have helped, since... well.. who would have filled them?
Mike, you can take a well-known story or set of facts and then add so much more detail, another point of view and nuances that it "almost" becomes a new story. Great job.
Here's a couple of other tidbits about the Republic/Florida collsion and its relationshuip to the Titanic disaster: in the aftermath of the crash, wireless operator Jack Binns, who sent out the "CQD" signal, was made into a hero by the White Star Line and the press, and actually became a short-lived celebrity. He was afterwards offered the job of operating Titanic's wireless, but turned it down (I think because he was getting married), and some have wondered if his presence could have made a difference. He also is known to have made a recommendation that ships have someone on the wireless 24/7 in the future, but this advice was clearly ignored.
you mentioned that collapsable boats A and B floated off the deck. it was so close with B that the crew didn't have time to turn it upright. that nightmare scenario of people huddled on an overturned boat actually HAPPENED. Harold Bride - the surviving wireless operator - got out that way
Collapsible B is such a chilling account of survival and a sobering testament to human endurance. You may recall how Second Officer Lightoller climbed aboard (after almost drowning when he got sucked against an intake vent and nearly getting crushed by the forward funnel earlier that night) and arranged all 30 of the survivors in two parallel lines and had them shift their weight against the waves to prevent it from getting swamped. But in spite of this, it was still slowly sinking underneath them, and if they hadn't been picked up by another lifeboat, all of them would have frozen or drowned long before Carpathia arrived. According to Lightoller's account in his autobiography, the water was already up to their knees when they were finally transferred to a proper lifeboat.
@@Hirundo-demersalisnot to mention, some people actually DID die on B. For some of them the cold and the exhaustion was just too much, and they just collapsed into the ocean.
This was a really excellent video! It addresses some things which distress me as a amateur historian. I am constantly amazed by those who make grand statements about some historical event. "If only Commander X had done (fill in the blank) the entire course of the battle and perhaps the war would have been completely different!!!" What they fail to realized is that each tiny detail of a battle does not exist entirely in and of itself, but in concert with every other aspect. It's like believing you can change one piece of a puzzle, and all the other pieces will magically transform to fit with the newly reshaped piece. Historical events, battles, wars, etc, are intrinsically complicated compilations of a multitude of details all swirling around and interacting upon each other. Events in the past proceeded the way they did because the weight and flow of all those details inevitably pushed history one way or another, like water always follows the path of least resistance to go downhill. If in some alternate universe you have Commander X seize an objective earlier than he did historically, it doesn't change other factors. Commander Y on the opposing side is still going to show up with a bigger army at the same time he originally did, and crush Commander X's smaller force. More lifeboats on the Titanic likely wouldn't have saved more people. History happened the way it did, people made the decisions they made, because at the time it made sense under those circumstances. The weight and flow of history has almost always proceeded along the most logical and practicable course.
On the night of April 15th, it turns out the water was so calm, it was difficult to spot icebergs, but this also served as a blessing to the survivors in the Lifeboats, as if the Sea were rough, as the North Atlantic tends to be, the Survivors in the Lifeboats may have capsized and drowned.
O_O Okay... I didn't realize that even today they don't _have_ to have 100% accommodation. That was a great breakdown of the laws and logic of the time for Titanic; never heard it put that way or explained so well before. I think if I ever _do_ get the chance to go on an Ocean Liner, I'm still gonna pack my drysuit, _just in case_ .
To be clear, I think they _do_ need to carry capacity for 125% of passengers, just not as regular _boats_ - meaning that, if you're unlucky, you'd have to make do with one of those auto-inflatable rafts that are kept in their characteristic cylinders. That can actually be a good thing, as regular life boats are known to be difficult and time consuming to launch (and especially problematic in cases where there is a list, which is often the case on a sinking ship), whereas the inflatables are often much more lenient.
@@JasonHoningford, I went into one ship and there was a practical demonstration of some of the safety procedures, and during the explanation, the inflatable raft of that ship has held by a group of cables, so if it was the case, we would go in by the side of the ship, at the same level as the boats.
Hey Mike, I just wanted to say that I absolutely love your style of presenting these videos. I can tell you are genuinely passionate about these topics and you always seem to have a real sense of joy with sharing your knowledge with us. I'm looking forward to watching this and cannot wait to see your channel grow and flourish! All the best to you my friend!
Just thinking of the Costa Concordia disaster makes this so pertinent. 34 deaths still weren’t enough to outrage the world and question the safety of modern cruise ships. If Concordia hadn’t sunk in shallow water, the lives lost would have been hundreds. Even all the modern safety measures wouldn’t have worked.
Look up some of the videos from Viking sky cruise accident... Scariest day of my life they evacuated five hundred plus people by helicopter before they got things under control... My cruise with the Viking sky The last one I'll ever take lol
It only sank BECAUSE it was in shallow water, so if it stayed in deep water like it was supposed to it never would sunk in the first place. That situation was less about ship safety and more about crew competency, that's why several crew members that were on the bridge faced criminal charges.
People usually tend to ignore how much the passengers had a role in their demise... They were reluctant to enter the lifeboats for a very long time since the boat sinking was very slow and steady for the firsthour, they didn't want to part with their families due to the women and children rule... Combine that with the confusion in orders among the crew and you have a miss in saving a few hundred more people... When the lifeboats were lowered with less than half their capacity, there was nobody else on the deck in most cases
I love the semi-3d effect you've been adding to your videos recently, though it's sometimes noticeable that the bridge has no windows and the back of the forecastle has no railings. Otherwise, great work.
lots of valid points i didn't think about. im sure if i was on the titanic in 1912, i'd probably be hesitant to get into a lifeboat as well. and also interesting that even nowadays we don't carry lifeboats to 100% capacity eventhough modern lifeboats are fully covered and can survive storms
I'd get in, at least if I was on deck & seeing them being loaded. If not on deck, I don't think there would necessarily have been anything to get me there, but if there, I'd get in, cause I'd be thinking that the crew knew the history, so why the heck are they loading people onto lifeboats, so clearly there must be something serious going on, so I'm not taking chances! I'm getting onto a boat, before everyone realises there's a problem & panic causes even more problems. I wouldn't be thinking lack of lifeboats, I'd be thinking about how panic disrupts things so badly at times
glad there's finally a good video on this topic. even if titanic had enough lifeboats for everyone, there just wasn't enough time left by the time the evacuation process started. lowering lifeboats takes like what, 10 minutes per boat?? they did everything they could that night, it's just unfortunate circumstances
Without a doubt the most compelling evidence & argument I've ever seen about the survivability of Titanic's passengers. This was an outstanding and eye-opening presentation, Mike.
Hey Mike, the animations are looking better and better with each video, and so is the content! Congrats on the 60k subs, and hope it keeps on going. Even in the Clallam incident, a large number of the passengers were reluctant to board the boats, or even outright said that it was far too dangerous to board. The officers either persuaded some of the women to board the boats by telling them the ship wouldn't be afloat much longer, or either physically dropped them into a boat. In at least two reports I've found, they flashed their revolvers to get the passengers into the boats. Any interest in covering the Lund Blue Anchor or the NYK ships? They've always seemed a bit overlooked.
You're teaching me more about Titanic then I've ever known. Plus, some other ships which are worthy of attention. Thanks for all this. Your videos are a pretty big inspiration and I'm hoping to make a Titanic movie one day.
Thank you for finally giving some much needed context where it belongs. It’s easy to repeat the same old stories about lifeboat capacity, greedy shipbuilders, and callous crew, but it’s much harder to actually do the research that you do to fully flesh out the story, and correct the errors. Bravo!
I love this channel! Being a Titanic enthusiast since I was about 10 years old, I follow you keenly and look forward to every next upload. Also teaching my children what a real youtuber is supposed to be:) someone who really knows about something and presents it with humility. Always keeping to fact and not going with cheap bought myths and easy explanations. Keep up the (very) good work!
I really wish the idea that Harland and Wolff cheaped out and cut corners on the construction of the Olympic class ships would go away but I suppose some people are determined to believe drama over fact...
I think there would have been a big increase in people saved from Titanic (even with the 18 lifeboats) if the crew had done full practices before the disaster. Figuring out how to lower the lifeboats and what they can withstand whilst in the middle of an event like hitting the iceberg was a recipe for disaster.
Won't really matter if they can't get passengers INTO the boats in the first place. And given how slow relatively the sinking was as well as having to choose between a small boat in the middle of the ocean or a big ship with heating it's no surprise that some people were more hesitant to leave until it was too late for many of them.
On a side note I've always found it so horrific when lifeboats get swamped or capsize during a disaster. It just seems so cruelly unfair. Like, you got a place in a lifeboat, you should be safe. Obviously I know tragic disasters like these are by very definition unfair and there's no magic universal rule governing them, life is harsh and unforgiving, etc. ... but man, it just feels like a gut punch every time I read/hear something like that. Especially given that those who usually die in these situations are the women and children. Imagine the survivor's guilt a father would feel having put his family in a lifeboat, only for them to drown and him to survive.
I used to have a book of Titanic news reports, and I recall one had a man who said that he suggested that instead of lifeboats, that ocean liners could have large sections of the deck where passengers could gather, and it would just float free from the ship as it sank. He said his suggestion was only laughed at. I know it's not that simple, and certainly not all ships sink the same way, but I still think there is a lot merit in the idea.
A note about modern lifeboats... They are only good if you can actually launch them. If the ship lists beyond a certain number of degrees, half the lifeboats, the ones on the high side, become effectively useless.
Modern lifeboats are fully enclosed and pretty tough, in worse case scenario you just untie the boat from the ship, lock the door, strap yourself in and wait for ship to sink under you :) Or just drop the boats and let them freefall to the water and use the other side to lower yourself to them.
Thank you for these interesting facts, Mike! I have heard a rumour or two on this subject over the years, but never cared about them. Now - and thanks to you - I have heard facts and they are always worth remembering. Disasters and accidents are awful but the flipside of the coin is that we can learn something from them and not repeat the same mistake(s) over and over again.
There's so many self proclaimed Titanic historians. You are the only one who knows what they're talking about. You deliver accurate unquestionable facts.
This always amazed me that even in 1912, someone didn't think of the possibility that all lives on an oceanliner might need to be saved, as outlandish as that may have sounded at the time with the Titanic being regarded as "unsinkable". Well, we now know that pretty much nothing is unsinkable, and have adjusted our ways to based the number of lifeboats on the actual number (or rather max capacity) of an oceanliner rather than by gross tonnage.
What the Titanic needed a lot more than more lifeboats was RADAR. They would have seen the berg 20 miles away, made a slight turn and missed it by half a mile. This of course is a problem of timing: they were about 30 years too early. If it happened that way, she'd probably be some obscure old ship that most people have never heard of instead of perhaps the most famous ship ever to exist.
Technology is no match with stupidity or oversight. Radar did not prevent Andrea Doria and Stockholm from colliding. Having enough lifeboats is not enough to prevent thousands of deaths from Empress of Ireland or Lusitania. Advanced radar and GPS assisted navigation system is no match to Captain's stupidity.
@@mehere8038 Why did the other ship, the Californian, stop for the night? Because it was surrounded by an ice field it couldn’t get around or through Titanic had not reached that field yet…
This is by a long way the best video I’ve seen on Titanics lifeboat complement. Really good back story, reasoning and debunking of myths. You are becoming one of my favourite channels! Keep it up 😀
It’s still scary to think ocean liners and cruises don’t have to accommodate for 100% of the total capacity of a ship to this day. Granted I know sinking ships of such as those has pretty much been cut down to practically 0 with how they build ships now a days. But they really should because being prepared for something like sinking with help along way away. Albeit very rare. Is better than leaving anybody having to deal with their chances
Why do you say they've been cut down to 0? How about all the ferry sinkings, even if not so many larger ships going down? I live in Sydney Australia, if catching the ferry that goes across the heads (entry to the Harbour, where ocean swell enters), the first thing you hear via the speaker system on the trip is the information on where the lifejackets are located. I assume there's more than enough lifejackets onboard for everyone, even at max capacity & tbh, I think it's highly unlikely that ferry would ever sink, since they cancel it anytime there's too much swell & it's never sunk before, but they still take safety seriously & go through the protocols for everyone, every trip. I wonder how many of the ferry disasters would have been less tragic if they did the same thing & I certainly think all ships should be still treating the sinking threat as serious, to say they are "practically 0" is the same thing as was said about Titanic's chances of sinking isn't it! & look how that turned out. We definitely shouldn't think there's no threat cause the ships are more modern or whatever & btw on that Manly ferry, the majority of passengers are commuters that catch it every single day & they are Aussies, which mean they can EASILY swim to shore in the event of a sinking, without any assistance of lifejackets or any floatation devices, plus there's ample other vessels on the Harbour that would be there within minutes to pick everyone up. If it's felt necessary to go through that safety stuff there, it should be seen the same way everywhere & for all ferries & ships!
Thank you! Jeez, finally someone who just gives the straight facts. I do love the story of the Titanic and understand completely how it's been mythologized over the decades, but there's no need to dramatize it with stories of cut-corners or disregard for safety due to frivolous greed. Most of the blame leveled at J. Bruce Ismay comes from renowned muckraker and all around prick William Randolph Hearst, who hated Ismay and was happy to blame him for all aspects of the disaster whether it was warranted or not.
Of all the amazing videos you posted, this one is special, I always thought the regulations were archaic but I never considered public’s cautious opinion towards the lifeboats.
@denniswilson8013 I did not know about Ford’s safety issue, thanks. It is very ironic how people think about safety issues. People prefer illusion of safety rather than actual safety.
Interesting comment on the davits and how they held up on the strain. I remember reading in a book that one of the (not sure if likely or confirmed by later testimony) reasons that a number of the boats were launched less than full was that although Titanic's davits had been apparently designed to support lowering a fully-loaded boat all the way from the boat deck, a lot of the officers and crew doing the lowering apparently weren't aware of this, and were planning originally to use a procedure where they would put some people in at the boat deck, then lower it down partially, where more people would be loaded from one of the lower decks, then they would finish lowering the boat to the water. If true, why, especially for the first boats when there would've presumably been time to do so, they didn't actually do this (or attempt to do so), I don't know. (I presume for the later boats, it was clear that there wouldn't be enough time to do a 2-stage loading procedure.)
Thank you , another excellent video , I've often wondered why people didn't start ripping wood paneling off the walls as well as tables and anything that would float , tossed into the sea , even wooden doors ripped off would float .
The cork & kapok fibre rafts, or a variant of them, could have been designed to be flat & stack up one on top of another, so that 20-30, maybe more, could have been piled up in the space of a pair of lifeboats. Especially after Titanic, I don't understand why that didn't happen on all large ships, that way all it takes is to undo/cut the ties holding the pile & all will float off when the ship sinks & provide lots of buoyant, large objects for survivors in the water to use (kapok is the same material that was in the life vests & was used as sides on the liferafts, should be easy enough to have it as flat strips & just ties on each corner that can be tied to move it from flat to raised sides by those in the life raft, but till then, they would all just be flat panels, that could easily be stacked up) Yes it would have been good to get as much buoyant stuff as possible into the water, but it could have been done at a more professional level too
Late reply. But Charles Joughin, Titanic's head baker who was in charge of stocking the lifeboats with food, did actually have the foresight to toss deck chairs over board for people to use as flotation devices. And a Chinese man named Fang Lang did survive the sinking by getting on top of a piece of floating wood (which inspired the door scene in the movie. In fact a scene of him was filmed but cut was from the movie.). His story wasn't well known due the the anti-Chinese view at the time sadly. He and the other Chinese passengers (there was 8 total but 2 died in the sinking) were basically erased from history because of that.
You mentioned Titanic's builder, Harland & Wolff. I'm curious how the sinking of the Titanic affected the company? Did it damage their reputation at all? I skimmed a wikipedia article about them, but Titanic is only briefly mentioned
Not much at all, considering they were only the builders and not the designers. The company seems to have lasted into the beginning of the 21st century, but is only really limping along due to competition with overseas construction companies and a decline in demand.
Interesting video, thanks Mike! I also saw the other recent video about the process of the sinking - there are so many misconceptions about Titanic. Good to set the record straight!
Thanks Mike for letting people know this, as a lot get this wrong as you said. However, I am still of the opinion that if Californian HAD headed to Titanic she could have saved some by ferrying passengers to her. Thank you Captain Lord.
They were stopped and surrounded by field ice at the time, unable to safely move until morning, with cold boilers that would’ve taken at least a couple hours to re-light.
@@DerpyPossum This is so not true. As the ship needs power even when stopped, one boiler is always on. Captain Lord saw the rockets from Titanic and even saw the ship. They were not far away at all. Even with one boiler he could have been at Titanic’s side within an hour or so. Californian could have helped ferry the survivors over as planned. But the reality is Captain Lord ignored the rockets, went to bed, and spent the rest of his life trying to explain. He didn't even try. Shame on him.
@@DerpyPossum They were not surrounded by ice and the boilers were not cold. The actual time it took for Californian to get underway once they found out about Titanic via wireless was considerably under an hour's time. It took them a while to get down to where the lifeboats were, but Captain Lord ordered the ship to go THROUGH the ice field to the west and to the incorrect CQD position coordinates. When Lord realized the coordinates were wrong, he turned and traveled down along the western side of the ice field and around up to where Carpathia was, arriving just in time to get word that all who could were rescued and there was nothing left to do.
@@DerpyPossum But maybe soon enough that they could've saved people who died of exposure while waiting for rescue in the lifeboats. And Captain Lord, seeing Titanic's distress rockets and the liner's own lights would've realized much sooner that Titanic's CQD position was wrong and head for the ship, thus getting there even faster. So, at bare minimum, a dozen or so lives get saved.
When thinking about that sinking you gotta remember how hard it is to spread correct information to everyone. The passengers had no clue if it would sink or not. Getting lowered into the pitch black often would be difficult scary
A really informative and interesting video. Thanks very much for this. I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot. I've always been fascinated by the Titanic (more so after I found out that Captain Smith was a distant relative) and this was a new angle on the lifeboat situation. 👍
This insight, which I know must not be new but is certainly not widely understood, has definitely shined a different perspective on the disaster in my mind. In my youth, I'd always come to believe that the disaster was purely the result of corporate greed and incompetence. But now I see it more of just...a different time where things like crossing an ocean were just far more deadly. Perhaps the mistake Titanic made was just existing at a time when technology was not ready to concur iceberg ridden waters at all. It's so easy to try and paint a picture of "It was White Star Line, they were evil and removed life boats to save clutter". But realizing of course a life boat was not only likely equally dangerous but even having more of them doesn't mean they would have been filled at all definitely is a perspective I hadn't considered and I thank you for your insights. In a way, it makes the whole disaster all the more terrifying.
This video answered a question I've long had about the number of lifeboats: would more have saved any more lives? Coincidentally, I asked about this in a comment on your Sept. 18 video. Great minds!
It's so sad. It shows that death was inevitable. Nothing is unsinkable and the idea that nature can't take over is a myth. Everyday is a miracle. Thank you for sharing this interest information and analysis.
I always figured that having more lifeboats wouldn’t have made much of a difference since they couldn’t even get the collapsibles launched properly. A good many more could have been saved if the crew had been better prepared for an emergency and if the chain of communication hadn’t broken down, but those are things that modern ships still struggle with.
The crew were about as well-prepared as you could expect, considering they were all experienced crewmen and had drilled on the _Titanic's_ lifeboats a couple-three times prior to.
@@stevenschnepp576 IIRC I believe there’s some debate about the “women and children” thing, with some crew members thinking that meant “women and children first, then if there’s room, men are let on”. Others interpreted that as “women and children ONLY” but I don’t know if that’s a rumor or if there’s actual basis for this story
@@Assasin2 I believe the bases for that story is looking at the difference in capacity loading on each side of the ship, depending on who was in charge & also looking at the number of men who were able to board, with the same person who loaded less onto each lifeboat, having far less men onboard them - and yes, there's clear evidence from that of what you are talking about there being true
still am astounded at the endearing anc captivated audience to this day and age..could you describe sea trials..how long did it take..did they test lifeboat loading/unloading etc..once again..a classy and comprehensive video on the subject on hand..
Debatable on Titanic having enough time since the last two boats basically floated away, and that's not counting losing able seamen to prepare the davits since some went into boats to row or be in command of the boat.
There is a saying in sailing - you only step up into a lifeboat. The idea is that so long as your primary vessel is seaworthy enough to be further above the water than your lifeboat then you shouldn’t abandon your vessel yet as it is still the safer place to be at sea.
Taking collapsible B into account 25 people survived on her, at most it would have saved 400 people, having 16 more that in this situation were luckily cut free before being taken down with the ship. However it will most likely will have caused future issues, as the enquiry would not list, the lack of lifeboats as an issue. The rule may never changed as ~16 - 18 lifeboats seem to be the limit you can launch properly in time. Which would end the lives of possibly thousands in the future if that rule was not changed.
But some people got into collapsible B (already overturned) before the ship sank, while there was still light to see the boat. In the pitch dark after the ship had gone down and with the widespread panic of +1000 people just dropped into the water I don't think many would even realize some boats were there, and even less would be able to climb on top of them. Also let's not forget Lightoller was in the overturned collapsible B and distributed the survivors to even out the weight and allow more to get onboard, so 25 really was pretty much the best imaginable result.
@@Headbreak1 that's why I said it was the most you could hope to save, I would also point out there were 27 - 30 on board and 5 di ed and it was just the people who got on board before they started kicking others and preventing them from coming on, that's what all accounts says. There was no orderly listening to Lightholler, they kicked people until they stopped and then balanced it properly and 30 was not what people would feel normal the enter boat was submerged, as they stood on it, because there was no order to who had got on or how many. It just got to a point when independently started pushing and kicking people trying to get on.
the reason for the lifeboat number though still related to using them to ferry passengers to waiting rescue ships, so without waiting rescue ships, presumably they still would have realised more lifeboats were needed, plus, without lifeboat numbers to blame, they might have actually legislated actions that ACTUALLY would have saved lives in future sinkings, such as electric hoists, to speed up the process & allow more people on, with less strain on humans lowering them & a smoother ride, so less fear from passengers & less reluctance to board
The rate limiting step was persuading passengers that a) there was a problem, b) the problem was worth evacuating for, and c) persuading them to actually board the lifeboats even in that knowledge. Multiply that by 20. Then imagine trying to get that done in one hour and fifty minutes (not 2 hours and 40 minutes - discovering the problem, noting its terminal nature despite all measures, the solitary position in the ocean, and priming the boats, would all have taken time; and then there was the end bit if the sinking where the ship was too far gone to launch any more lifeboats).
Another excellent video Mike but i think you should have mentioned the story of lifeboat N°1, who was the 4th boat launched that night with only 12 people onboard for a capacity of… 40! Surely, by this stage, well over one hour after the collision, it should have been filled up with more people, even if they were reluctant to leave the relative security of Titanic. What’s disturbing is that it was filled by a very rich couple and their servants and crewmen. Namely Sir Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon. Surely, more people could have been found nearby to fill the boat, perhaps not to it’s maximum capacity but at least more than 12! It seems to me that money had its way in that particular case…
Agree. Remember how in Titanic (1997) Cameron showed Cal's character giving Murdoch $ money as an early payment of getting on board during the early stages of lowering the lifeboats. Cameron didn't just do it as a joke, or show the audience the sinister character Cal Hockley was (Slapping and yelling at Rose already did that), but merely alluring to what happened on Lifeboat No.1 with Sir Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon.
Unfortunately, he seems far more concerned with facts and history than with unfounded rumors. Sir Cosmo did not bribe the crewmen on the lifeboat to launch prematurely, and the only servant of theirs aboard was Lucy's secretary, Laura Mabel Francatelli. It appears the boat launched prematurely for two reasons - the first being the reluctance of passengers to board the lifeboats, and the second being to get more time to launch the collapsibles. It seems that none of the crewmen manning the lifeboat were actually interested in rescuing swimmers, as only one of them told any story about the Duff-Gordons objecting - and the rest of them refuted it, saying nobody made any such proposal.
Watching a recent documentary, I believe it was so the 2 collapsible boats behind it could be launched. These boats could not be pre-prepped like the other boats and had to use the same winch system as boat No1. In order to get those 2 boats prepped, positioned and out No 1 had to be out the way.
Another great video Mike! Well done! One thing concerning the Titanic's passenger's reluctance to get into the boats. If what I've read is true the reluctance disappeared when the first distress rocket was fired. While there was a certain amount of disbelief that things "Couldn't be that bad, could they?" the rockets erased all disbelief. "Oh my, things ARE that bad!" And there's no point in going into detail over the fact there were no passenger lifeboat assignments or drills back in those days which only made boat loadings and launchings more inefficient than they should have been.
There's no way the crew had enough time to launch more than the 18 boats that did get off the ship. Had there been rough seas and a rescue ship, I wonder how useful the boats still would have been in shuttle passengers to another? Sadly, many people were doomed that night. There was no way around it.
Given it took something like 3 hours to get the people out of the lifeboats & onto the rescue ship, with kids being lifted in flour sacks, cause that was the best option they could come up with as to how to get them up to the deck, I can't see a rescue boat being there would have helped at all, other than having their lifeboats potentially able to launch with professional crews & go into the screaming masses & pull people out of the water & get them dry & warm as fast as possible to maybe save a few more that way
Great video! I am familiar with the SS clallam wreck and it was a major tragedy in Washington state where I grew up. To this day the Washington state ferry system which names all of its vessels after Indian names won’t name a boat Clallam because of the disaster, even though there an Indian tribe be that name and a county in WA named by that name. I’m also going back to Canada next year to hike the trail to the Pachena point lighthouse which was constructed solely because of the SS Valencia grounding. These disasters which occurred near where I grew up were major causes for many changes of Maritime safety. If you never have been plan a visit to Port Angeles Washington and I will take you on the ferry from there to Victoria Canada and show you where the incident of the clallam happened. Love your content!
Hoping you can answer a question for me that I’ve not been able to find the answer to. How do the davits attach to the lifeboats themselves? My guess would be there’s a loop in each boat for a hook on the davit?
It would vary depending on the builder of the boat, some would have a ring at bow and stern of the boat, others would have 2 of each with a 3rd between on rope for the davit to hook to. Or the davit line would split to hook to the two rings at either end.
Very small correction: with the Republic incident in 1909, the US Coast Guard didn't exist under that name. It wasn't until early 1915 when the US Revenue Cutter Service and US Lifesaving Service combined to become the US Coast Guard. The US Lifesaving Service had an incredible history of service and bravery, both on the sea coasts and the Great Lakes.
Thought I read one of the front boats had an issue & needed to be cut free during the evacuation, & as he said several boats floated their way off so I can imagine a scenario of people possibly cutting lines like their lives depended on it & perhaps a couple miracle boats surviving that’d be 120 ppl in theory 🤷♂️
I have to disagree with your final assessment some. One thing you and Historic Travels miss when it comes to the last two lifeboats is that they were all the way up on top of the rooftop of the officer's quarters on either side of the No. 1 funnel. Getting those boats down from there was, to say the least, one hell of difficult feat, and it's to the credit of the officers and crew that got them down onto the boat deck just before the final plunge that allowed those two collapsibles to save as many lives as they did. If those boats had been stationed right next to davits, as the other pair of collapsibles had, it's quite possible they could've been successfully launched via davits just minutes before the final plunge took place. Furthermore, having lifeboats for everyone or very close to it, means that Captain Smith might've had the courage to risk informing the otherwise reluctant passengers gathered up top that the ship was going to sink and that help was too far away so it was necessary to evacuate everyone from the ship as quickly and orderly as possible. So lifeboats are loaded more fully, within the best judgement of the officers, and plans might've been put in place to cut loose as many boats as possible if it looked like they couldn't be launched in time.
You can only say all of that with the benefit of hindsight, planning specifically for the conditions that existed on the night that Titanic sank. Even WITH the extra boats, there would not have been enough for everyone. So Captain Smith would have had the same problem with 32 boats as he did with 16.
@@Crosshair84 I am not simply saying that with benefit of hindsight anymore than anyone else here is. With 32 boats, that means that with boats nearly full, all 1,200 passengers can be safely evacuated and most of the unessential crew or about 1,600 people in total. A simple change in a variable like this has so many downstream ramifications that it's impossible to say what would happen. But there are some reasonable guesses we might make based on what we know happened and the people involved.
Collision was considered: it was built with a crow’s nest and crewed with a 24/7 lookout. Sinking was considered: it was built as unsinkable as they knew how, and equipped with more than enough life belts with everyone. Rescue was considered: it was built with a wireless, a morse lamp, and distress rockets. Lifeboats were considered: it exceeded the board of trade requirements for its tonnage, and it also had side doors for lifeboats to pick up extra people on lower decks as they were lowered. Ice was considered: they sailed when the ice season was pretty much over and south of the main ice berg zones, and had a way of receiving real-time ice warnings and updates. Power cuts were thought of: it had emergency lighting, and capacitors that could provide even some extra lighting on top of that. They thought of everything in some way or another. They had reason to feel safe and confident. It’s a shame they were blindsided with a perfect storm of unforeseen circumstances.
Fascinating! …and sad! It weighs heavy on my mind that given the knowledge at the time, I absolutely would have made the wrong decision for my family. I would have thought it much safer to stay on the Titanic instead of boarding a lifeboat …until it was too late.
The saga of the lifeboats, to me, is a non-issue. Titanic is one of just a few ships in modern history to have successfully loaded and launched, or floated off, her entire compliment of lifeboats before sinking. Oceanos, I believe is another. But it's rare. Either the ship has sunk too quickly (Britannic, Lusitania) developed a list which prevented the lifeboats on one side of the ship from being lowered (Andrea Doria, Costa Concordia), or caught fire and the smoke and flames prevented a number of boats from being launched (Achille Lauro, Morro Castle). Then you have the absolute shit shows like MV Sewol and MV St. Thomas Aquinas. Regardless of the number of lifeboats on board a ship, loading and launching them is up to fate. Having "lifeboats for all" is just a feel-good measure that often doesn't measure up in a sinking.
MS Estonia sank and took 852 people with it, with only 137 survivors. Zero lifeboats were launched, as the ship capsized in a storm in less than an hour. It seems the very serene conditions of Titanic's sinking served to overplay the role of lifeboats.
I "logicked" myself to the conclusion that "enough" lifeboats wouldn't have made a difference by realizing that it took up to the final plunge to get to the final collapsible. So thank you for confirming that for me. -----Also....it's not only about enough lifeboats. It also depends on the speed of the sinking and also the list the ship takes. You could have enough lifeboats, but it the list is too great, well.....now you only have enough for half. ----And if the ship sinks very quickly....well, you see where I'm going with that.
YOU ARE THE FIRST TO RECOGNIZE what I have been saying for about a decade now, that even if Titanic had enough life boats, the late decision to launch them along with the unwillingness of most people to board them AND the time it took (average 15 minutes per life boat as timed by James Cameron), it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Remember, they were still kicking those collapsibles off as the wheelhouse slipped under. If you wait and load the lifeboats fully, then it takes longer. And, if you had to load twice as many, well, even a Common Core Mathematician could calculate that they would run out of time before the ship slipped under. It just wouldn't have mattered. But I am curious about one thing; yes there was a danger in putting people in the boats, but what were the interiors of these ships made of? WOOD! Flammable wood. Wouldn't you want to take your chances should the ship start burning? Curious that no one addressed that...
He isn't the first to propose that. It's actually an old bit. I noticed that you also, like he did, remove the context of Collapsibles A and B being stored on top of the roof of the officers' quarters on either side of the No.1 funnel. It took a herculean effort to get them down to the boat deck and B wound up falling upside down. As it was, A was hooked up to the falls and had it been located next to one of the davits as had C and D, they might've got it launched before the final plunge occurred. Same with B. Keep in mind that two of the lifeboats, 10 and 13 were launched nearly full, thus there is a flaw somewhere in James Cameron's timing.
Even if they had enough lifeboats getting them down would have been the biggest issue. Andrews noted they didnt have enough or a double hull for the b deck. And in the end he started throwing chairs overboard for floatation devices. The more ive learned about him and the frustrations he mustve had regarding the construction must've been haunting as the ship began to sink. And he went down with it. I admire that courage to try and get as many people to the boats as possible even if it were a lost cause is nothing short of admirable.
Tell me you haven't seen actual Titanic fanboys without telling me you haven't seen actual Titanic fanboys. Trust me...Mike is *nothing* compared to some others...
There was a doccie made many years ago (1980s?) called Titanic, A question of Murder (or something like that) which really delved into the lifeboat question. It was a very early glimpse at some of the complexity involved in the ship and its construction as well as the suits who rubber stamped things. I saw it way back then and dont recall it much anymore but it was one of the first Titanic doccies I ever saw. Once again, thanks for the great vid.
As someone who does go on cruises occasionally it's great to know modern ships have watertight doors that have to be closed at sea, have double bottoms, modern radar and night vision, and also have far more lifeboat capacity than should ever be needed.
@@DerpyPossum Costa Concordia had a double hull. While 4,229 passengers and crew were saved, the 32 who sadly lost their lives did so due to the criminally negligent actions of the captain and some senior members of the crew. There was ample opportunity to save all souls onboard after the collision but they failed to do their jobs. The captain is still in prison and rightly so.
Titanic believe it or not was very ahead of its time in regards to layout. It would remind you of a 1980s hospital inside lol that’s how updated the interior was and acclimated to brand, new ways of interior, decorating, etc. and safety. I believe the infamous “caution, fire” and the first introduced “exits signs “or on the ship as well. I may be wrong, but I think they had the old ax in the protective glass as well that we see in many buildings today, which allows someone to break the glass with the metal bar hanging from it in case of fire access
Another thought, the small number of people that might have been saved from having more lifeboats might have been cancelled out by the problems of having the deck much more cluttered. It might have been more difficult to navigate the deck and taken longer to launch the boats they could.
This channel is one of the best out there. Your research and presentation are fantastic, and really illuminate a fascinating period for us ship nerds. Well done!!😊
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LOVE the video!!
I think that if the titanics life boats were already set up then maybe you would have enough time
Oceanliner, your Titanic model at the beginning of the video 0:29 looks amazing, it looks almost 3d!
Life after people
Star trek 4 whale
In the “Titanic: 20 Years Later” special about the movie from a few years back, they actually built a mock up the davits and lifeboats on the Titanic. They had a bunch of men working as fast as they could, and it still took nearly 10 minutes (as I recall) to lower a boat. The take away was that even if the ship had been equipped with more lifeboats, they likely wouldn’t have been able to launch them all in time.
There's so much you can do with pure muscle power and tonnes of weight to move
@@HyperVegitoDBZ well muscles yeah but also training and safety and knwong what to do, also if you crowd around a task or won’t always mean it will get done
I've seen an interview with, I believe, Ken Marschall, who mentioned some of the survivors he met recounting how much the davits were bending under the weight (and the loud creaking they did). During Cameron's film, the davits (built with an even greater degree of strength for margin of safety) did the same unnerving thing. It's no wonder people didn't wish to board the lifeboats until the situation looked more dire.
Very interesting info - thanks!
@@oriontaylor That may be true, but the lifeboat davits actually held up on Titanic pretty well, especially when boats 10 and 13 each launched with nearly 60 people onboard.
The fact that taking your chances on an open row boat was very likely to be more dangerous than staying with the ship, is too often overlooked, even in modern times. There have been many cases where crews of pleasure craft / sailboats bailed out to their liferaft and ended up drowning, only for the abandoned yacht to be found still afloat days or weeks later. An infamous occasion where this happened was the 1979 Fastnet Race tragedy.
It may diverge a bit but it reminds me to proper motorcycle braking technique.
Just like buoyancy is the life of your ship/boat, friction between your tires and the road is the life of your motorcycle. As long as you've got buoyancy or friction, you stay, remain calm, and do all you can to control the situation or at least reduce the risks of the aftermath. In fact I think it's also the case with airplanes and airspeed.
Panicking and bailing out will often be more dangerous. You do everything you can until the last possible second, because once you leave, you're no longer in control.
@@moteroargentino7944 Very interesting analogy and I agree, thank you!
There's a saying in sailing/boating "only ever step UP into a lifeboat" or "never step down into a lifeboat" ie you only enter the lifeboat, when your main boat is effectively underwater/gone.
There was also the Tony Bulimore example, where they thought maybe he was still alive, cause a new epirb was activated, but overhead views showed the boat fully upsidedown & no lifeboat in sight. He was inside an air pocket in the upsidedown boat & I think he was there for about a week or 2 before he was rescued.
I haven't looked it up to freshen my memory, just going by what I recall about the event when it happened
Modern life-boats for big ships are much more complicated and dependable affairs from those old simple boats. Their almost like starship escape pods some of them.
It's easy for us to look back with modern eyes and blame White Star Line and Harland and Wolf for negligence. But the Titanic was indeed built to withstand every type of damage that had been previously documented as befalling an ocean going ship. As discussed in the video about the damage she sustained from the iceberg collision, it dealt a worse-than-worst-case scenario of damage, and the treacherous icy waters made it difficult for rescue vessels to get there in time. The Titanic was a victim of Murphy's Law.
Ships sink for three reasons, a collision with another ship and therefore rescue is easy, grounding near land so therefore rescue is easy or very heavy weather so therefore lifeboats would offer no protection.
And icebergs are only present for a matter of weeks every year and its almost unheard of the them to be so far east. Normally icebergs are only found within 100-200 miles of the coast (navigational officer who has sailed those very waters and seen such ice bergs).
Its also easy to just brush off critiques at the time, ships had double hulls for 4000 years for a reason, the Great Eastern the largest ship of its time, 50 years before Titanic had a double hull, I suggest you research what happened to the Great Eastern in 1862 during its voyage to New York, its easy to sit there with modern eyes and completely brush off history for in early 20th century money was tight and ship builders had to cut costs, double hulls were usually double as expensive and required double amount of steel, White Star Line had to cut the line somewhere so they choose single hull, quicker to build, cheaper and they perfectly knew what they were doing, stop acting like people back then were idiots.
@@SMGJohn you're being a little unfair. That's like criticising airlines for not issuing parachutes when most planes in the 1920s had them.
White star believed that water tight doors and compartments removed the need for double hulls, the same way airlines believe modern aviation tech means passengers will never need to bail out at altitude.
@@oliverlane9716
By this logic airliners should stick with square windows and just fly a bit slower.
this still doesn't resolve the guilt on the captains part of sailing full steam into a known ice field.
When you think about it, it was the specific circumstances in which the Titanic sank that made people believe a ship should have enough lifeboats for everyone - in the open ocean, in calm weather, sinking slowly enough to evacuate, and they had wireless so they were now able to contact other ships too far away to see distress rockets, meaning rescue could come from further away and therefore possibly after the ship had gone down (which it did). All of that came together to create a situation where getting into a lifeboat and waiting was the best possible thing you could do, when in many sinkings, especially before wireless, it wasn't.
True, boarding a lifeboat was usually certain death
I was fascinated a while ago to do a quick Wikipedia search and realise the worst iceberg-related sinking before Titanic only killed 81 people (or something like that). Titanic really was a Sept 11 moment for the Edwardians.
Still praying for an Oceanliner Designs/Drachnifel mash-up about whether the Indefatiguable-class battlecruisers really were built to catch Lusitania-class liners!
Aha, a fellow Drach enthusiast - and that would definitely be worth watching!
@@waverleyjournalise5757 Indeed!
It gets even more crazy:
damage to Titanic was pretty much unique - AFAIK we do not have any other registered case of collision damaging so many compartments.
Also, as mentioned by some historians - damages that sank Lusitania or Andrea Doria would have been troublesome for Titanic, but not necessary deadly.
Well the SS Pacific was supposedly sunk by an Iceberg as reported from a message in a bottle that was found in the ocean, and she had 186 souls on board.
Lady of the Lake was an Aberdeen-built brig that sank after striking an iceberg off the coast of Newfoundland in May 1833, with the loss of up to 265 passengers and crew. Only fifteen passengers and crew survived.
Despite my love for quick-ish documentaries on CZcams, I never would've imagined a channel dedicated to oceanliner history or that I would be intrigued or--even crazier--drawn deeply into the subject at all. However, you have a true talent for absolutely outstanding narration, writing, research, and visuals here, and I wish you the very best in growing this channel! It's truly a wonderful treat to watch your videos.
And I agree with you in every single word here, but I would add an observation about the fact that the auto generated subtitles on CZcams don't help at all people like me (and others that are not English native speakers) and need them for the perfect understanding of the narration. I'd like to help the channel to create subtitles in Portuguese, for example, but I haven't been answered yet by him.
I like videos like this. It shows just how complex the narrative surrounding the Titanic disaster actually is and it can’t be overly simplified to ‘arrogant Captain and not enough lifeboats’
Given lifeboats were small little boats that often didn't hold up well in heavy seas and needed rescue before the supplies ran out, I can see why White Star went over the legal limit but not all out
I've been fascinated by the Titanic since I was a kid. After years of buying into the insufficient lifeboats myth, I now realise that the number of boats wasn't the issue. What killed so many people was the speed with which the Titanic sank and the lethally cold water. Two hours and forty minutes was simply not enough time to determine the ship was sinking and evacuate the 2,200 people on board. Many people were doomed the moment the iceberg opened up her hull.
10-15 minutes in that water and you die. The only thing you can do is get drunk to counter the effects of the ice constricting your blood vessels, that's why the baker survived so long according to doctors.
The movie made it seem like they figured it out pretty quickly. There also wasn't much done drills which is something that should have been done when you think about but no government legally required them to do so.
Hello Michael, You are one of the most amazing presenters, having the talent and ability to keep the interest in the subject going from start to finish. My grandmother personally knew a lady and her daughter who survived the Titanic disaster because of the life boats. Thank you for an amazing CZcams Channel.
Thanks so much Ed!
Thanks mate! :)
Amen! Good job, Michael. Oct. 8, 2022, St. Joseph, MO, USA
Hijacking this comment to give my praises too!
@@naan-oyobizniz3168 So kind of you, thanks!
All of this NEEDS to be said more often! Excellent work combating, if you will, the incredibly over-simplified “they should’ve had more lifeboats” assumption that the general public makes. I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this video :)
ESPECIALLY since you used “surprising” in the title instead of something ridiculous like “shocking”. I’ve pretty much been completely desensitized by the word “shocking”, thanks to the thousands of clickbait articles out there, haha!
Shocking! Haha
@@OceanlinerDesigns I love your videos on the shipping and shipbuilding industry. My great grandfather Albert Horswill was a crewman aboard the Rms Oceanic and was transferred to the Rms Titanic for it’s ill fated maiden voyage. He survived the wreck when Officer Murdoch ordered him and six other crewmen onto cutter lifeboat one on the starboard side. There were five first class passengers on this lifeboat as well, three of whom were Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon and their secretary Mabel Francatelli. Due to the fact there were only 12 aboard when it had capacity for 40. The press accused the Duff Gordons of bribing my great grandfather and the other crewmen. This negatively impacted all of them for the remainder of their lives. Keep up the incredible work, I’d love to see a video on the Edmund Fitzgerald some day!!
@@OceanlinerDesigns hmm most interesting analysis i saw about titanic pointed out that... even with the "small" number of lifeboats launched... they weren't FULL. Not all of the possible room on the lifeboats was actually used. this also goes with the idea that more wouldn't have helped, since... well.. who would have filled them?
If all of this is true then why bother having enough lifeboats for 125% of passengers?
@@namename9998Lifeboats today are much more survivable. Also is the ship is listing, often only one side is readily able to launch the lifeboats.
Mike, you can take a well-known story or set of facts and then add so much more detail, another point of view and nuances that it "almost" becomes a new story. Great job.
Hi, I have a suggestion for a new video. Can you make one detailing the differences between Titanic-era lifeboats and modern lifeboats?
Here's a couple of other tidbits about the Republic/Florida collsion and its relationshuip to the Titanic disaster: in the aftermath of the crash, wireless operator Jack Binns, who sent out the "CQD" signal, was made into a hero by the White Star Line and the press, and actually became a short-lived celebrity. He was afterwards offered the job of operating Titanic's wireless, but turned it down (I think because he was getting married), and some have wondered if his presence could have made a difference.
He also is known to have made a recommendation that ships have someone on the wireless 24/7 in the future, but this advice was clearly ignored.
you mentioned that collapsable boats A and B floated off the deck. it was so close with B that the crew didn't have time to turn it upright. that nightmare scenario of people huddled on an overturned boat actually HAPPENED. Harold Bride - the surviving wireless operator - got out that way
Collapsible B is such a chilling account of survival and a sobering testament to human endurance.
You may recall how Second Officer Lightoller climbed aboard (after almost drowning when he got sucked against an intake vent and nearly getting crushed by the forward funnel earlier that night) and arranged all 30 of the survivors in two parallel lines and had them shift their weight against the waves to prevent it from getting swamped. But in spite of this, it was still slowly sinking underneath them, and if they hadn't been picked up by another lifeboat, all of them would have frozen or drowned long before Carpathia arrived. According to Lightoller's account in his autobiography, the water was already up to their knees when they were finally transferred to a proper lifeboat.
@@Hirundo-demersalisnot to mention, some people actually DID die on B. For some of them the cold and the exhaustion was just too much, and they just collapsed into the ocean.
And then you read about collapsible A, which was probably even worse despite not being overturned.
This was a really excellent video! It addresses some things which distress me as a amateur historian. I am constantly amazed by those who make grand statements about some historical event. "If only Commander X had done (fill in the blank) the entire course of the battle and perhaps the war would have been completely different!!!" What they fail to realized is that each tiny detail of a battle does not exist entirely in and of itself, but in concert with every other aspect. It's like believing you can change one piece of a puzzle, and all the other pieces will magically transform to fit with the newly reshaped piece.
Historical events, battles, wars, etc, are intrinsically complicated compilations of a multitude of details all swirling around and interacting upon each other. Events in the past proceeded the way they did because the weight and flow of all those details inevitably pushed history one way or another, like water always follows the path of least resistance to go downhill. If in some alternate universe you have Commander X seize an objective earlier than he did historically, it doesn't change other factors. Commander Y on the opposing side is still going to show up with a bigger army at the same time he originally did, and crush Commander X's smaller force.
More lifeboats on the Titanic likely wouldn't have saved more people. History happened the way it did, people made the decisions they made, because at the time it made sense under those circumstances. The weight and flow of history has almost always proceeded along the most logical and practicable course.
On the night of April 15th, it turns out the water was so calm, it was difficult to spot icebergs, but this also served as a blessing to the survivors in the Lifeboats, as if the Sea were rough, as the North Atlantic tends to be, the Survivors in the Lifeboats may have capsized and drowned.
O_O Okay... I didn't realize that even today they don't _have_ to have 100% accommodation. That was a great breakdown of the laws and logic of the time for Titanic; never heard it put that way or explained so well before. I think if I ever _do_ get the chance to go on an Ocean Liner, I'm still gonna pack my drysuit, _just in case_ .
they do, just that those few hundreds of leftover people get to use pool floaties.
Don’t forget a blow up dingy. And one of those backpacks that charge phones!
To be clear, I think they _do_ need to carry capacity for 125% of passengers, just not as regular _boats_ - meaning that, if you're unlucky, you'd have to make do with one of those auto-inflatable rafts that are kept in their characteristic cylinders. That can actually be a good thing, as regular life boats are known to be difficult and time consuming to launch (and especially problematic in cases where there is a list, which is often the case on a sinking ship), whereas the inflatables are often much more lenient.
Ya you def want to try to get a real boat. The inflatables require you to jump into a tube or slide, risking death just getting into one.
@@JasonHoningford, I went into one ship and there was a practical demonstration of some of the safety procedures, and during the explanation, the inflatable raft of that ship has held by a group of cables, so if it was the case, we would go in by the side of the ship, at the same level as the boats.
Hey Mike, I just wanted to say that I absolutely love your style of presenting these videos. I can tell you are genuinely passionate about these topics and you always seem to have a real sense of joy with sharing your knowledge with us. I'm looking forward to watching this and cannot wait to see your channel grow and flourish! All the best to you my friend!
Thanks so much!
Just thinking of the Costa Concordia disaster makes this so pertinent. 34 deaths still weren’t enough to outrage the world and question the safety of modern cruise ships. If Concordia hadn’t sunk in shallow water, the lives lost would have been hundreds. Even all the modern safety measures wouldn’t have worked.
It only sunk so shallow because it grounded itself by taking the wrong course.
Look up some of the videos from Viking sky cruise accident... Scariest day of my life they evacuated five hundred plus people by helicopter before they got things under control... My cruise with the Viking sky The last one I'll ever take lol
It only sank BECAUSE it was in shallow water, so if it stayed in deep water like it was supposed to it never would sunk in the first place. That situation was less about ship safety and more about crew competency, that's why several crew members that were on the bridge faced criminal charges.
People usually tend to ignore how much the passengers had a role in their demise... They were reluctant to enter the lifeboats for a very long time since the boat sinking was very slow and steady for the firsthour, they didn't want to part with their families due to the women and children rule... Combine that with the confusion in orders among the crew and you have a miss in saving a few hundred more people... When the lifeboats were lowered with less than half their capacity, there was nobody else on the deck in most cases
I love the semi-3d effect you've been adding to your videos recently, though it's sometimes noticeable that the bridge has no windows and the back of the forecastle has no railings.
Otherwise, great work.
I’m pushing the 2D drawings about as far as they can go haha!
lots of valid points i didn't think about. im sure if i was on the titanic in 1912, i'd probably be hesitant to get into a lifeboat as well. and also interesting that even nowadays we don't carry lifeboats to 100% capacity eventhough modern lifeboats are fully covered and can survive storms
I'd get in, at least if I was on deck & seeing them being loaded. If not on deck, I don't think there would necessarily have been anything to get me there, but if there, I'd get in, cause I'd be thinking that the crew knew the history, so why the heck are they loading people onto lifeboats, so clearly there must be something serious going on, so I'm not taking chances! I'm getting onto a boat, before everyone realises there's a problem & panic causes even more problems. I wouldn't be thinking lack of lifeboats, I'd be thinking about how panic disrupts things so badly at times
glad there's finally a good video on this topic. even if titanic had enough lifeboats for everyone, there just wasn't enough time left by the time the evacuation process started. lowering lifeboats takes like what, 10 minutes per boat??
they did everything they could that night, it's just unfortunate circumstances
Without a doubt the most compelling evidence & argument I've ever seen about the survivability of Titanic's passengers. This was an outstanding and eye-opening presentation, Mike.
Hey Mike, the animations are looking better and better with each video, and so is the content! Congrats on the 60k subs, and hope it keeps on going.
Even in the Clallam incident, a large number of the passengers were reluctant to board the boats, or even outright said that it was far too dangerous to board. The officers either persuaded some of the women to board the boats by telling them the ship wouldn't be afloat much longer, or either physically dropped them into a boat. In at least two reports I've found, they flashed their revolvers to get the passengers into the boats.
Any interest in covering the Lund Blue Anchor or the NYK ships? They've always seemed a bit overlooked.
You're teaching me more about Titanic then I've ever known. Plus, some other ships which are worthy of attention. Thanks for all this. Your videos are a pretty big inspiration and I'm hoping to make a Titanic movie one day.
Thank you for finally giving some much needed context where it belongs. It’s easy to repeat the same old stories about lifeboat capacity, greedy shipbuilders, and callous crew, but it’s much harder to actually do the research that you do to fully flesh out the story, and correct the errors. Bravo!
I love this channel! Being a Titanic enthusiast since I was about 10 years old, I follow you keenly and look forward to every next upload. Also teaching my children what a real youtuber is supposed to be:) someone who really knows about something and presents it with humility. Always keeping to fact and not going with cheap bought myths and easy explanations. Keep up the (very) good work!
I really wish the idea that Harland and Wolff cheaped out and cut corners on the construction of the Olympic class ships would go away but I suppose some people are determined to believe drama over fact...
I think there would have been a big increase in people saved from Titanic (even with the 18 lifeboats) if the crew had done full practices before the disaster. Figuring out how to lower the lifeboats and what they can withstand whilst in the middle of an event like hitting the iceberg was a recipe for disaster.
There was a lifeboat drill held in Southampton for the crew before Titanic left. Boats were lowered and rowed about…
Won't really matter if they can't get passengers INTO the boats in the first place. And given how slow relatively the sinking was as well as having to choose between a small boat in the middle of the ocean or a big ship with heating it's no surprise that some people were more hesitant to leave until it was too late for many of them.
On a side note I've always found it so horrific when lifeboats get swamped or capsize during a disaster. It just seems so cruelly unfair. Like, you got a place in a lifeboat, you should be safe. Obviously I know tragic disasters like these are by very definition unfair and there's no magic universal rule governing them, life is harsh and unforgiving, etc. ... but man, it just feels like a gut punch every time I read/hear something like that. Especially given that those who usually die in these situations are the women and children. Imagine the survivor's guilt a father would feel having put his family in a lifeboat, only for them to drown and him to survive.
I enjoy how you "lift the veil" of mythology surrounding the RMS Titanic in your videos!!! Thanks Mike! Greetings from the USA (:
Cheers Edward!
I used to have a book of Titanic news reports, and I recall one had a man who said that he suggested that instead of lifeboats, that ocean liners could have large sections of the deck where passengers could gather, and it would just float free from the ship as it sank. He said his suggestion was only laughed at. I know it's not that simple, and certainly not all ships sink the same way, but I still think there is a lot merit in the idea.
Californian: * pretends to not have been there *
A note about modern lifeboats... They are only good if you can actually launch them. If the ship lists beyond a certain number of degrees, half the lifeboats, the ones on the high side, become effectively useless.
Modern lifeboats are fully enclosed and pretty tough, in worse case scenario you just untie the boat from the ship, lock the door, strap yourself in and wait for ship to sink under you :) Or just drop the boats and let them freefall to the water and use the other side to lower yourself to them.
Your content makes me really smart. love it. thanks Michael!
Thank you for these interesting facts, Mike! I have heard a rumour or two on this subject over the years, but never cared about them. Now - and thanks to you - I have heard facts and they are always worth remembering. Disasters and accidents are awful but the flipside of the coin is that we can learn something from them and not repeat the same mistake(s) over and over again.
There's so many self proclaimed Titanic historians. You are the only one who knows what they're talking about. You deliver accurate unquestionable facts.
I learned more, once again! I love these videos
This always amazed me that even in 1912, someone didn't think of the possibility that all lives on an oceanliner might need to be saved, as outlandish as that may have sounded at the time with the Titanic being regarded as "unsinkable". Well, we now know that pretty much nothing is unsinkable, and have adjusted our ways to based the number of lifeboats on the actual number (or rather max capacity) of an oceanliner rather than by gross tonnage.
Wow I didn't know about the Clallam or the Valencia. Geez rest in peace to those poor souls. This is a wonderful channel for maritime information.
Thank you again for explaining in detail there are far more nuances to every disaster than just a simple 1 cause-1 effect explanation.
What the Titanic needed a lot more than more lifeboats was RADAR. They would have seen the berg 20 miles away, made a slight turn and missed it by half a mile. This of course is a problem of timing: they were about 30 years too early.
If it happened that way, she'd probably be some obscure old ship that most people have never heard of instead of perhaps the most famous ship ever to exist.
They might not have had radar, but they did have the ability to stop for the night you know - same as other ships around her had
Technology is no match with stupidity or oversight. Radar did not prevent Andrea Doria and Stockholm from colliding. Having enough lifeboats is not enough to prevent thousands of deaths from Empress of Ireland or Lusitania. Advanced radar and GPS assisted navigation system is no match to Captain's stupidity.
@@mehere8038
Why did the other ship, the Californian, stop for the night?
Because it was surrounded by an ice field it couldn’t get around or through
Titanic had not reached that field yet…
This is by a long way the best video I’ve seen on Titanics lifeboat complement. Really good back story, reasoning and debunking of myths.
You are becoming one of my favourite channels! Keep it up 😀
It’s still scary to think ocean liners and cruises don’t have to accommodate for 100% of the total capacity of a ship to this day. Granted I know sinking ships of such as those has pretty much been cut down to practically 0 with how they build ships now a days. But they really should because being prepared for something like sinking with help along way away. Albeit very rare. Is better than leaving anybody having to deal with their chances
If you add the rafts, they do accommodate everyone.
Just not everyone in boats.
Why do you say they've been cut down to 0? How about all the ferry sinkings, even if not so many larger ships going down? I live in Sydney Australia, if catching the ferry that goes across the heads (entry to the Harbour, where ocean swell enters), the first thing you hear via the speaker system on the trip is the information on where the lifejackets are located. I assume there's more than enough lifejackets onboard for everyone, even at max capacity & tbh, I think it's highly unlikely that ferry would ever sink, since they cancel it anytime there's too much swell & it's never sunk before, but they still take safety seriously & go through the protocols for everyone, every trip. I wonder how many of the ferry disasters would have been less tragic if they did the same thing & I certainly think all ships should be still treating the sinking threat as serious, to say they are "practically 0" is the same thing as was said about Titanic's chances of sinking isn't it! & look how that turned out. We definitely shouldn't think there's no threat cause the ships are more modern or whatever
& btw on that Manly ferry, the majority of passengers are commuters that catch it every single day & they are Aussies, which mean they can EASILY swim to shore in the event of a sinking, without any assistance of lifejackets or any floatation devices, plus there's ample other vessels on the Harbour that would be there within minutes to pick everyone up. If it's felt necessary to go through that safety stuff there, it should be seen the same way everywhere & for all ferries & ships!
Thank you! Jeez, finally someone who just gives the straight facts. I do love the story of the Titanic and understand completely how it's been mythologized over the decades, but there's no need to dramatize it with stories of cut-corners or disregard for safety due to frivolous greed. Most of the blame leveled at J. Bruce Ismay comes from renowned muckraker and all around prick William Randolph Hearst, who hated Ismay and was happy to blame him for all aspects of the disaster whether it was warranted or not.
Of all the amazing videos you posted, this one is special, I always thought the regulations were archaic but I never considered public’s cautious opinion towards the lifeboats.
@denniswilson8013 I did not know about Ford’s safety issue, thanks. It is very ironic how people think about safety issues. People prefer illusion of safety rather than actual safety.
You make some very good points. It's amazing to see how pop culture and cinema distorts sound logic.
Great Videos learned allot and expanded my horizon
Interesting comment on the davits and how they held up on the strain. I remember reading in a book that one of the (not sure if likely or confirmed by later testimony) reasons that a number of the boats were launched less than full was that although Titanic's davits had been apparently designed to support lowering a fully-loaded boat all the way from the boat deck, a lot of the officers and crew doing the lowering apparently weren't aware of this, and were planning originally to use a procedure where they would put some people in at the boat deck, then lower it down partially, where more people would be loaded from one of the lower decks, then they would finish lowering the boat to the water. If true, why, especially for the first boats when there would've presumably been time to do so, they didn't actually do this (or attempt to do so), I don't know. (I presume for the later boats, it was clear that there wouldn't be enough time to do a 2-stage loading procedure.)
Thank you , another excellent video , I've often wondered why people didn't start ripping wood paneling off the walls as well as tables and anything that would float , tossed into the sea , even wooden doors ripped off would float .
The cork & kapok fibre rafts, or a variant of them, could have been designed to be flat & stack up one on top of another, so that 20-30, maybe more, could have been piled up in the space of a pair of lifeboats. Especially after Titanic, I don't understand why that didn't happen on all large ships, that way all it takes is to undo/cut the ties holding the pile & all will float off when the ship sinks & provide lots of buoyant, large objects for survivors in the water to use (kapok is the same material that was in the life vests & was used as sides on the liferafts, should be easy enough to have it as flat strips & just ties on each corner that can be tied to move it from flat to raised sides by those in the life raft, but till then, they would all just be flat panels, that could easily be stacked up)
Yes it would have been good to get as much buoyant stuff as possible into the water, but it could have been done at a more professional level too
Late reply. But Charles Joughin, Titanic's head baker who was in charge of stocking the lifeboats with food, did actually have the foresight to toss deck chairs over board for people to use as flotation devices.
And a Chinese man named Fang Lang did survive the sinking by getting on top of a piece of floating wood (which inspired the door scene in the movie. In fact a scene of him was filmed but cut was from the movie.). His story wasn't well known due the the anti-Chinese view at the time sadly. He and the other Chinese passengers (there was 8 total but 2 died in the sinking) were basically erased from history because of that.
@@goku-san wow I had never heard about them. I'm going to do more research on them now.
A true master stroke of a twist ending. "... But your safe today right?"
You mentioned Titanic's builder, Harland & Wolff. I'm curious how the sinking of the Titanic affected the company? Did it damage their reputation at all? I skimmed a wikipedia article about them, but Titanic is only briefly mentioned
Not much at all, considering they were only the builders and not the designers. The company seems to have lasted into the beginning of the 21st century, but is only really limping along due to competition with overseas construction companies and a decline in demand.
Interesting video, thanks Mike! I also saw the other recent video about the process of the sinking - there are so many misconceptions about Titanic. Good to set the record straight!
Thanks Mike for letting people know this, as a lot get this wrong as you said. However, I am still of the opinion that if Californian HAD headed to Titanic she could have saved some by ferrying passengers to her. Thank you Captain Lord.
They were stopped and surrounded by field ice at the time, unable to safely move until morning, with cold boilers that would’ve taken at least a couple hours to re-light.
@@DerpyPossum This is so not true.
As the ship needs power even when stopped, one boiler is always on. Captain Lord saw the rockets from Titanic and even saw the ship. They were not far away at all. Even with one boiler he could have been at Titanic’s side within an hour or so. Californian could have helped ferry the survivors over as planned. But the reality is Captain Lord ignored the rockets, went to bed, and spent the rest of his life trying to explain.
He didn't even try.
Shame on him.
@@DerpyPossum They were not surrounded by ice and the boilers were not cold. The actual time it took for Californian to get underway once they found out about Titanic via wireless was considerably under an hour's time. It took them a while to get down to where the lifeboats were, but Captain Lord ordered the ship to go THROUGH the ice field to the west and to the incorrect CQD position coordinates.
When Lord realized the coordinates were wrong, he turned and traveled down along the western side of the ice field and around up to where Carpathia was, arriving just in time to get word that all who could were rescued and there was nothing left to do.
@@mikedicenso2778 The point still somewhat stands that they likely wouldn’t have made it in time.
@@DerpyPossum But maybe soon enough that they could've saved people who died of exposure while waiting for rescue in the lifeboats.
And Captain Lord, seeing Titanic's distress rockets and the liner's own lights would've realized much sooner that Titanic's CQD position was wrong and head for the ship, thus getting there even faster.
So, at bare minimum, a dozen or so lives get saved.
When thinking about that sinking you gotta remember how hard it is to spread correct information to everyone. The passengers had no clue if it would sink or not. Getting lowered into the pitch black often would be difficult scary
A really informative and interesting video. Thanks very much for this. I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot. I've always been fascinated by the Titanic (more so after I found out that Captain Smith was a distant relative) and this was a new angle on the lifeboat situation. 👍
This insight, which I know must not be new but is certainly not widely understood, has definitely shined a different perspective on the disaster in my mind. In my youth, I'd always come to believe that the disaster was purely the result of corporate greed and incompetence. But now I see it more of just...a different time where things like crossing an ocean were just far more deadly. Perhaps the mistake Titanic made was just existing at a time when technology was not ready to concur iceberg ridden waters at all. It's so easy to try and paint a picture of "It was White Star Line, they were evil and removed life boats to save clutter". But realizing of course a life boat was not only likely equally dangerous but even having more of them doesn't mean they would have been filled at all definitely is a perspective I hadn't considered and I thank you for your insights. In a way, it makes the whole disaster all the more terrifying.
This video answered a question I've long had about the number of lifeboats: would more have saved any more lives? Coincidentally, I asked about this in a comment on your Sept. 18 video. Great minds!
It's so sad. It shows that death was inevitable. Nothing is unsinkable and the idea that nature can't take over is a myth. Everyday is a miracle. Thank you for sharing this interest information and analysis.
I always figured that having more lifeboats wouldn’t have made much of a difference since they couldn’t even get the collapsibles launched properly. A good many more could have been saved if the crew had been better prepared for an emergency and if the chain of communication hadn’t broken down, but those are things that modern ships still struggle with.
The crew were about as well-prepared as you could expect, considering they were all experienced crewmen and had drilled on the _Titanic's_ lifeboats a couple-three times prior to.
@@stevenschnepp576 IIRC I believe there’s some debate about the “women and children” thing, with some crew members thinking that meant “women and children first, then if there’s room, men are let on”. Others interpreted that as “women and children ONLY” but I don’t know if that’s a rumor or if there’s actual basis for this story
@@Assasin2 I believe the bases for that story is looking at the difference in capacity loading on each side of the ship, depending on who was in charge & also looking at the number of men who were able to board, with the same person who loaded less onto each lifeboat, having far less men onboard them - and yes, there's clear evidence from that of what you are talking about there being true
still am astounded at the endearing anc captivated audience to this day and age..could you describe sea trials..how long did it take..did they test lifeboat loading/unloading etc..once again..a classy and comprehensive video on the subject on hand..
THANK YOU! I was hoping against hope you would make a video about this.
Titanic: Enough time but not enough lifeboats
Lusitania: Enough lifeboats but not enough time
Debatable on Titanic having enough time since the last two boats basically floated away, and that's not counting losing able seamen to prepare the davits since some went into boats to row or be in command of the boat.
They floated away after a cooling tower fell and created a big wave
There is a saying in sailing - you only step up into a lifeboat. The idea is that so long as your primary vessel is seaworthy enough to be further above the water than your lifeboat then you shouldn’t abandon your vessel yet as it is still the safer place to be at sea.
It is great to see people with a world of information. You have to do bull ship with tom and more.
Fantastic video again Mike! Good on you for clearing up these debated topics and putting a lot of them to rest.
Taking collapsible B into account 25 people survived on her, at most it would have saved 400 people, having 16 more that in this situation were luckily cut free before being taken down with the ship. However it will most likely will have caused future issues, as the enquiry would not list, the lack of lifeboats as an issue. The rule may never changed as ~16 - 18 lifeboats seem to be the limit you can launch properly in time. Which would end the lives of possibly thousands in the future if that rule was not changed.
But some people got into collapsible B (already overturned) before the ship sank, while there was still light to see the boat. In the pitch dark after the ship had gone down and with the widespread panic of +1000 people just dropped into the water I don't think many would even realize some boats were there, and even less would be able to climb on top of them.
Also let's not forget Lightoller was in the overturned collapsible B and distributed the survivors to even out the weight and allow more to get onboard, so 25 really was pretty much the best imaginable result.
@@Headbreak1 that's why I said it was the most you could hope to save, I would also point out there were 27 - 30 on board and 5 di ed and it was just the people who got on board before they started kicking others and preventing them from coming on, that's what all accounts says. There was no orderly listening to Lightholler, they kicked people until they stopped and then balanced it properly and 30 was not what people would feel normal the enter boat was submerged, as they stood on it, because there was no order to who had got on or how many. It just got to a point when independently started pushing and kicking people trying to get on.
the reason for the lifeboat number though still related to using them to ferry passengers to waiting rescue ships, so without waiting rescue ships, presumably they still would have realised more lifeboats were needed, plus, without lifeboat numbers to blame, they might have actually legislated actions that ACTUALLY would have saved lives in future sinkings, such as electric hoists, to speed up the process & allow more people on, with less strain on humans lowering them & a smoother ride, so less fear from passengers & less reluctance to board
The rate limiting step was persuading passengers that a) there was a problem, b) the problem was worth evacuating for, and c) persuading them to actually board the lifeboats even in that knowledge. Multiply that by 20.
Then imagine trying to get that done in one hour and fifty minutes (not 2 hours and 40 minutes - discovering the problem, noting its terminal nature despite all measures, the solitary position in the ocean, and priming the boats, would all have taken time; and then there was the end bit if the sinking where the ship was too far gone to launch any more lifeboats).
Another excellent video Mike but i think you should have mentioned the story of lifeboat N°1, who was the 4th boat launched that night with only 12 people onboard for a capacity of… 40! Surely, by this stage, well over one hour after the collision, it should have been filled up with more people, even if they were reluctant to leave the relative security of Titanic. What’s disturbing is that it was filled by a very rich couple and their servants and crewmen. Namely Sir Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon. Surely, more people could have been found nearby to fill the boat, perhaps not to it’s maximum capacity but at least more than 12! It seems to me that money had its way in that particular case…
Agree. Remember how in Titanic (1997) Cameron showed Cal's character giving Murdoch $ money as an early payment of getting on board during the early stages of lowering the lifeboats. Cameron didn't just do it as a joke, or show the audience the sinister character Cal Hockley was (Slapping and yelling at Rose already did that), but merely alluring to what happened on Lifeboat No.1 with Sir Cosmo and Lucy Duff Gordon.
Unfortunately, he seems far more concerned with facts and history than with unfounded rumors.
Sir Cosmo did not bribe the crewmen on the lifeboat to launch prematurely, and the only servant of theirs aboard was Lucy's secretary, Laura Mabel Francatelli. It appears the boat launched prematurely for two reasons - the first being the reluctance of passengers to board the lifeboats, and the second being to get more time to launch the collapsibles. It seems that none of the crewmen manning the lifeboat were actually interested in rescuing swimmers, as only one of them told any story about the Duff-Gordons objecting - and the rest of them refuted it, saying nobody made any such proposal.
Watching a recent documentary, I believe it was so the 2 collapsible boats behind it could be launched. These boats could not be pre-prepped like the other boats and had to use the same winch system as boat No1. In order to get those 2 boats prepped, positioned and out No 1 had to be out the way.
Another great video Mike! Well done!
One thing concerning the Titanic's passenger's reluctance to get into the boats. If what I've read is true the reluctance disappeared when the first distress rocket was fired. While there was a certain amount of disbelief that things "Couldn't be that bad, could they?" the rockets erased all disbelief. "Oh my, things ARE that bad!"
And there's no point in going into detail over the fact there were no passenger lifeboat assignments or drills back in those days which only made boat loadings and launchings more inefficient than they should have been.
There's no way the crew had enough time to launch more than the 18 boats that did get off the ship. Had there been rough seas and a rescue ship, I wonder how useful the boats still would have been in shuttle passengers to another? Sadly, many people were doomed that night. There was no way around it.
Given it took something like 3 hours to get the people out of the lifeboats & onto the rescue ship, with kids being lifted in flour sacks, cause that was the best option they could come up with as to how to get them up to the deck, I can't see a rescue boat being there would have helped at all, other than having their lifeboats potentially able to launch with professional crews & go into the screaming masses & pull people out of the water & get them dry & warm as fast as possible to maybe save a few more that way
Great video! I am familiar with the SS clallam wreck and it was a major tragedy in Washington state where I grew up. To this day the Washington state ferry system which names all of its vessels after Indian names won’t name a boat Clallam because of the disaster, even though there an Indian tribe be that name and a county in WA named by that name. I’m also going back to Canada next year to hike the trail to the Pachena point lighthouse which was constructed solely because of the SS Valencia grounding. These disasters which occurred near where I grew up were major causes for many changes of Maritime safety. If you never have been plan a visit to Port Angeles Washington and I will take you on the ferry from there to Victoria Canada and show you where the incident of the clallam happened. Love your content!
Hoping you can answer a question for me that I’ve not been able to find the answer to. How do the davits attach to the lifeboats themselves? My guess would be there’s a loop in each boat for a hook on the davit?
It would vary depending on the builder of the boat, some would have a ring at bow and stern of the boat, others would have 2 of each with a 3rd between on rope for the davit to hook to. Or the davit line would split to hook to the two rings at either end.
These videos are very informative, and help debunk a lot myths.
Very small correction: with the Republic incident in 1909, the US Coast Guard didn't exist under that name. It wasn't until early 1915 when the US Revenue Cutter Service and US Lifesaving Service combined to become the US Coast Guard.
The US Lifesaving Service had an incredible history of service and bravery, both on the sea coasts and the Great Lakes.
Thought I read one of the front boats had an issue & needed to be cut free during the evacuation, & as he said several boats floated their way off so I can imagine a scenario of people possibly cutting lines like their lives depended on it & perhaps a couple miracle boats surviving that’d be 120 ppl in theory 🤷♂️
I have to disagree with your final assessment some. One thing you and Historic Travels miss when it comes to the last two lifeboats is that they were all the way up on top of the rooftop of the officer's quarters on either side of the No. 1 funnel. Getting those boats down from there was, to say the least, one hell of difficult feat, and it's to the credit of the officers and crew that got them down onto the boat deck just before the final plunge that allowed those two collapsibles to save as many lives as they did.
If those boats had been stationed right next to davits, as the other pair of collapsibles had, it's quite possible they could've been successfully launched via davits just minutes before the final plunge took place.
Furthermore, having lifeboats for everyone or very close to it, means that Captain Smith might've had the courage to risk informing the otherwise reluctant passengers gathered up top that the ship was going to sink and that help was too far away so it was necessary to evacuate everyone from the ship as quickly and orderly as possible. So lifeboats are loaded more fully, within the best judgement of the officers, and plans might've been put in place to cut loose as many boats as possible if it looked like they couldn't be launched in time.
You can only say all of that with the benefit of hindsight, planning specifically for the conditions that existed on the night that Titanic sank.
Even WITH the extra boats, there would not have been enough for everyone. So Captain Smith would have had the same problem with 32 boats as he did with 16.
@@Crosshair84 I am not simply saying that with benefit of hindsight anymore than anyone else here is.
With 32 boats, that means that with boats nearly full, all 1,200 passengers can be safely evacuated and most of the unessential crew or about 1,600 people in total.
A simple change in a variable like this has so many downstream ramifications that it's impossible to say what would happen. But there are some reasonable guesses we might make based on what we know happened and the people involved.
Collision was considered: it was built with a crow’s nest and crewed with a 24/7 lookout. Sinking was considered: it was built as unsinkable as they knew how, and equipped with more than enough life belts with everyone. Rescue was considered: it was built with a wireless, a morse lamp, and distress rockets. Lifeboats were considered: it exceeded the board of trade requirements for its tonnage, and it also had side doors for lifeboats to pick up extra people on lower decks as they were lowered. Ice was considered: they sailed when the ice season was pretty much over and south of the main ice berg zones, and had a way of receiving real-time ice warnings and updates. Power cuts were thought of: it had emergency lighting, and capacitors that could provide even some extra lighting on top of that.
They thought of everything in some way or another. They had reason to feel safe and confident. It’s a shame they were blindsided with a perfect storm of unforeseen circumstances.
At this point Mike, you just inspired me to make my gaming channel ship related.
Yay congratulations and good luck!
Fascinating! …and sad!
It weighs heavy on my mind that given the knowledge at the time, I absolutely would have made the wrong decision for my family. I would have thought it much safer to stay on the Titanic instead of boarding a lifeboat …until it was too late.
Back then lifeboats were viewed not as lifesavers, but to transport passengers from a distressed ship to a rescue ship
Please start siting sources in the description of your videos!
@Max what are you trying to say with that wink?
The saga of the lifeboats, to me, is a non-issue. Titanic is one of just a few ships in modern history to have successfully loaded and launched, or floated off, her entire compliment of lifeboats before sinking. Oceanos, I believe is another. But it's rare. Either the ship has sunk too quickly (Britannic, Lusitania) developed a list which prevented the lifeboats on one side of the ship from being lowered (Andrea Doria, Costa Concordia), or caught fire and the smoke and flames prevented a number of boats from being launched (Achille Lauro, Morro Castle). Then you have the absolute shit shows like MV Sewol and MV St. Thomas Aquinas. Regardless of the number of lifeboats on board a ship, loading and launching them is up to fate. Having "lifeboats for all" is just a feel-good measure that often doesn't measure up in a sinking.
MS Estonia sank and took 852 people with it, with only 137 survivors. Zero lifeboats were launched, as the ship capsized in a storm in less than an hour. It seems the very serene conditions of Titanic's sinking served to overplay the role of lifeboats.
@@SoaringSuccubus couldn’t agree more.
I "logicked" myself to the conclusion that "enough" lifeboats wouldn't have made a difference by realizing that it took up to the final plunge to get to the final collapsible. So thank you for confirming that for me.
-----Also....it's not only about enough lifeboats. It also depends on the speed of the sinking and also the list the ship takes. You could have enough lifeboats, but it the list is too great, well.....now you only have enough for half.
----And if the ship sinks very quickly....well, you see where I'm going with that.
YOU ARE THE FIRST TO RECOGNIZE what I have been saying for about a decade now, that even if Titanic had enough life boats, the late decision to launch them along with the unwillingness of most people to board them AND the time it took (average 15 minutes per life boat as timed by James Cameron), it wouldn't have made much of a difference.
Remember, they were still kicking those collapsibles off as the wheelhouse slipped under.
If you wait and load the lifeboats fully, then it takes longer. And, if you had to load twice as many, well, even a Common Core Mathematician could calculate that they would run out of time before the ship slipped under.
It just wouldn't have mattered.
But I am curious about one thing; yes there was a danger in putting people in the boats, but what were the interiors of these ships made of? WOOD! Flammable wood. Wouldn't you want to take your chances should the ship start burning? Curious that no one addressed that...
He isn't the first to propose that. It's actually an old bit. I noticed that you also, like he did, remove the context of Collapsibles A and B being stored on top of the roof of the officers' quarters on either side of the No.1 funnel. It took a herculean effort to get them down to the boat deck and B wound up falling upside down. As it was, A was hooked up to the falls and had it been located next to one of the davits as had C and D, they might've got it launched before the final plunge occurred. Same with B.
Keep in mind that two of the lifeboats, 10 and 13 were launched nearly full, thus there is a flaw somewhere in James Cameron's timing.
Even if they had enough lifeboats getting them down would have been the biggest issue. Andrews noted they didnt have enough or a double hull for the b deck. And in the end he started throwing chairs overboard for floatation devices. The more ive learned about him and the frustrations he mustve had regarding the construction must've been haunting as the ship began to sink. And he went down with it. I admire that courage to try and get as many people to the boats as possible even if it were a lost cause is nothing short of admirable.
Your such a fanboy... cant say anything negative about the titanic LOL...... very bias
I have noticed this also..
Tell me you haven't seen actual Titanic fanboys without telling me you haven't seen actual Titanic fanboys.
Trust me...Mike is *nothing* compared to some others...
@@DerpyPossumdoesn't mean he's not a fanboy....
@@harmankardon478 He's not a fanboy. His behavior doesn't match that of one, and he has indeed spoken of Titanic's negative aspects before.
I went to school in the 2000s, it's amazing how much changes in such a short amount of time when it comes to correcting scholarly information.
Harland and Wollff produced the finest ship's drawing that I have seen from anywhere in the world.
There was a doccie made many years ago (1980s?) called Titanic, A question of Murder (or something like that) which really delved into the lifeboat question. It was a very early glimpse at some of the complexity involved in the ship and its construction as well as the suits who rubber stamped things. I saw it way back then and dont recall it much anymore but it was one of the first Titanic doccies I ever saw. Once again, thanks for the great vid.
As someone who does go on cruises occasionally it's great to know modern ships have watertight doors that have to be closed at sea, have double bottoms, modern radar and night vision, and also have far more lifeboat capacity than should ever be needed.
Not all of them have double-bottoms, though. Costa Concordia was a hefty example of such, IIRC.
@@DerpyPossum Costa Concordia had a double hull. While 4,229 passengers and crew were saved, the 32 who sadly lost their lives did so due to the criminally negligent actions of the captain and some senior members of the crew. There was ample opportunity to save all souls onboard after the collision but they failed to do their jobs. The captain is still in prison and rightly so.
You should launch a titanic birth of a legend to learn about more about the construction
I have experienced being lowered in a davit launched lifeboat. It was a unique experience.
Titanic believe it or not was very ahead of its time in regards to layout. It would remind you of a 1980s hospital inside lol that’s how updated the interior was and acclimated to brand, new ways of interior, decorating, etc. and safety. I believe the infamous “caution, fire” and the first introduced “exits signs “or on the ship as well. I may be wrong, but I think they had the old ax in the protective glass as well that we see in many buildings today, which allows someone to break the glass with the metal bar hanging from it in case of fire access
Another thought, the small number of people that might have been saved from having more lifeboats might have been cancelled out by the problems of having the deck much more cluttered. It might have been more difficult to navigate the deck and taken longer to launch the boats they could.
This channel is one of the best out there. Your research and presentation are fantastic, and really illuminate a fascinating period for us ship nerds. Well done!!😊
Everything about the Titanic disaster is that it was basically like a the perfect storm of circumstances and decisions.