Killing Kung Fu
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Chinese Boxing declined, there's no doubt about it. So, what happened? How did we kill kung fu?
00:00 How did they Kill Kung Fu?
01:42 (Wait, what is Kung Fu? or Wushu? or Quan Shu?)
02:39 5 Main Reasons Kung Fu is Dying
03:16 Cultural Damage
08:39 Lack of Combat Context
15:02 Gentrification
19:00 Changing Economics
23:49 Delusion
27:43 The Damn Positive Feedback Loop towards Extinction
30:39 More than a Glimmer of Hope
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The Wandering continues...
Instead of preserving the art through combat sport, like what Japan did, China sought to preserve it through performance art. Japan had the right idea imo.
Probably ccp though is easier to control people or something, it was a bad move, for sure. And Taiwan and Hong Kong focuses too much on the economic development all these cultural things had been put aside instead
@@lps8966yeah during the cultural revolution Mao saw rural practitioners as a threat and outlawed it, making artistic “dance” the only way to safely carry it on, similar to how capoeira came about, as well as karate in Okinawa.
@@UsDiYoNaKarate are really effetive we have legends of K1 who used Karate as a base like Glauber, Francisco Filho, Andy hug, Sammy and Satake that fighted for real in Pro Kickboxing.
@@UsDiYoNaLyoto Machida showed in UFC how brutal are Karate skills when you train Karate properly.
@@UsDiYoNa
czcams.com/video/-w-sPMo8iTE/video.htmlsi=l8LX7IkLB-fo_xAL - That's are not a dance.
Kung Fu will never die in my heart. I feel that Chinese Kung Fu was the foundation of other martial arts.
Back in NY I would see Wing Chun guys spar Boxers and Kyokushin guys as to improve upon their Wing Chun. It would be nice if all Kung Fu practitioners would add this type of strategy to their system.
Pressure testing is key, sadly sparring is rare these days..and by sparring I don't mean chi Sao
I agree, I want to see more pressure testing, but I don't meet a lot of TCMA guys willing to
@the.wandering.warrior that's true , I guess it's because if they got beaten it will make their training all those years..nullified?
@@the.wandering.warrior I trained in Kenpo for over a decade and am looking to get into bjj soon.
@@jmala1885 which is kind of silly. Everyone loses eventually. Losing only discredits yourself not your art IMO. At this point I'm just doing Xing Yi for health because my body is shot. I have to work to feed my family and literally can't afford to get injured. When I was a bit younger I'd happily cross train and spar.
I’m only 71 years old but I’ve seen a nose dive in the martial arts in just my lifetime. Challengers were met in back rooms bare knuckle full contact. “Till first blood” was instituted to reduce trips to the hospital. Walking around with cracked ribs was not unusual. No contact matches reduced matches to an elaborate game of tag. It also produced a generation of people afraid of getting hit. You can’t be a fighter if you’re afraid to of getting hit. Now I watch a lot of martial arts on CZcams and have to refrain for commenting. Endless routines involving situations that will never happen that way.
The focus of my doctoral research was the teaching of taijiquan in Brazil, with focus on Chen Ziqiang's Lineage and the challenges of his disciple to teach traditional fighting of taijiquan in contemporary context -- where most of people look for chinese martial arts, specialy taijiquan, not for fighting. And my research got deep in many problems you talk about here. I'm a selfdefense instructor, teaching people who live in very violent context in Brazil, and truly belive Chinese Martial arts are incredible to teaching how fight in real scenarios. But, as you pointed, that demands less taolu and more fighting itself. Well, all this to say that our researches has got the similar conclusions, I hope to publish things in english soon enough to share. Great work, fellow!
Can you describe your training framework? What kind of live exercises do you use?
good to know the research lines up with my experiences, thanks for sharing!
That sounds amazing! Would love to see you project and results
Doesn't CZQ incorporate more modern methods into his Tuishou methods? Some note Shuaijiao and Judo influences... not to say anything about the quality or "Taiji-ness" but it does seem to point to ways in which these "traditional" teachers have to survive.
If the sanshou from Central Guoshu Institute from 1928 could have continued developed until these day people would have a complete different view on kung fu, bare in mind, all stricking martial arts before 1928 were also underdeveloped.
However, the best soluion now is focusing on how to bring in different kf technique into sanda and adjust the rules accordingly
Bruce spoke repeatedly about dry land swimmers.😂
A lot of what you say resonates with me. I think the history and culture of Chinese martial arts are interesting and important to understand.
What gives me the most hope for kung fu returning to effectiveness is the HEMA movement. You have a martial art with little to no real sports outlet, there are competitions, but there are no professional level ones, and yet you have people genuinely getting involved, devoting time and effort, and even studying historical sources, just for their own sake; without any hope or intentions of becoming a professional fighter.
My experience with HEMA is not so optimistic, I'm afraid.
I have more of an Eastern martial arts background (mostly Kung Fu) and I used to regularly go toe-to-toe with a bunch of HEMA instructors and practitioners, fencers, etc. Whether dueling or skirmish, I would defeat them pretty much every time. When they asked about my techniques, I would give them a brief explanation and a demonstration. They would then tell me my techniques wouldn't work for 'this' or 'that' reason... never mind the fact that I had just dominated them with said techniques. Apparently I was just "faster". o_0
HEMA suffers from the same bs that has destroyed other traditional martial arts. Practicing with submissive (students), compliant (friends), and/or overly familiar opponents (practitioners of the same art with similar perspectives). As a result, instructors develop a false sense of confidence in their art. Some attempt to commercialize it with over-hyped 'marketing strategies' and let their egos do the talking, while others dare not test it against unfamiliar opponents (and make up rules to keep it that way).
I moved to another country and visited HEMA groups that were unfamiliar with me. I pretended to know nothing and just let them do the talking and demonstrating. Inevitably, the ones I spoke to had nothing but disdain for other styles and methods. I gave up on HEMA at that point.
There was one HEMA practitioner who did bring me down though, and he will always have my respect. He was literally a world champion and (ironically) ex-Chinese elite military. The fight was epic and it ended with us both going to ground; him on top. Legend!
@@BattleBok Suprising. I thought HEMA was developed by fencers so it could be effective. So is that they insist to stick to the techniques written in acient books without making adjustments? or they barely have experience in the time-tested Kendo or Fencing?
@@BattleBok Suprising. I thought HEMA was developed by fencers so it could be effective. So is that they insist to stick to the techniques written in acient books without making adjustments? or they barely have experience in the time-tested Kendo or Fencing?
I watch a lot of Traditional CMA videos, and I also watch some HEMA videos when the topic is something interesting. CMA people usually are humble enough to admit that there are things we can learn from HEMA, but the HEMA people who say that there are things they can learn from Traditional styles are not as common.
One very big difference can be found in the comment section. I can watch a video of one of the best fighters in CMA, and there will always be BJJ/MMA fan-boys in the comments saying how CMA is useless, but for some reason, I almost never see those people saying those things in the HEMA videos, even if it is a terrible one.
Even though HEMA and CMA are both weapon oriented arts that use empty hand techniques as an aid to learning, for some reason CMA is the one that gets ridiculed.
I have an opinion on possibly what that reason may be, but you can draw your own conclusions.
@@Alexander-rd7bi Oh, I'm confident the study of historic fencing techniques can improve effectiveness in the sport of fencing (the key word being "sport").
There's a very big difference between sport and combat (or otherwise where traditional rules and matching weapons don't apply).
I've had some great bouts with the Kendo crowd though.
This is the best explanation of these issues I've seen. It takes a lot of research and experience to understand what actually happened with these fighting systems and most people have no clue where to even begin learning about the history. From someone who has learned from a more combat focused teacher, I can't express enough thanks.
There is a program online that my Sifu made and is slowly expanding to bring in coaches and teachers of different TCMAs. The style of kung fu that I study is called Bajiquan, and the program is called BajiShu but it’ll expand to teach Long Fist or ChangQuan. He’s working hard to preserve and expand the knowledge of TCMAs
What’s the internet site?
Growing up in the 80s in Los Angeles, I noticed there were way more Karate and Taekwondo schools compared to Kung Fu schools. So even though I was in love with Kung Fu movies and would have dove head first into Kung Fu, I ended up diving deep into Kenpo. If there were a lot more Kung Fu schools in America, that might have attracted many more Americans to practice Kung Fu. But yes everything you presented in this video I think is also totally true and had a ton to do with what happened with Kung Fu over time. Very well thought out presentation. Much props! 👍🏾
That thumbnail 🫡🔥
The combative aspects of traditional Chinese martial arts is being preserved in the west and in Southeast Asia, it is rich with effective combatives that have been mostly lost on the mainland.
Right and I don't have an issue with the preservation, although preservation is not the point of the video whatsoever - I'm not personally very concerned about that, because there are people who have good combat effective movements and I explained that in the video
@@the.wandering.warrior I am not talking about preservation for it’s sake alone, TCM, particularly systems like Hsing I, Baja, and believe it or not Taiji were efficient, effective combative systems, they are useful to modern day practitioners, maybe not in the octagon, but if you are caught in a large US city in a riot, or you are clearing a house, and find yourself struggling to retain your firearm. They are pragmatic combative systems that work for the average person, that is what should be preserved.
Beautifully said. As a practitioner of TCM as well as kickboxing, your words hit all the exact points that is wrong with the TCM world. As a chinese person I fully believe in the practicality of TCM (it had to be practical during the warring era in China), but dogma and tradition just prevented people from simply questioning or even implementing some modern equipment and training methods :(
The Chinese martial arts community refuses to openly share our actual methods, even to long time students, over time the practice becomes watered down, add to that people emphasize forms and no longer fight. HEMA people, FMA people, Boxers and grapplers openly share information with each other and the public and free fight.
What information could they possibly be witholding that you don't find elsewhere ? Nah....the reason why Chinese Martial Arts is a joke is because there was no real investment in general. It's that simple.
@@thecollector6746 you sound like someone that has never studied traditional Chinese martial arts, truth is universal, so much of the necessary information does/did exist elsewhere where, but you don’t look there because they convince you that the thing it looks like, is what it really is. Like Taiji Quan is a magic slow motion dance that gives you “internal powers”, when what it really is a sophisticated blend of striking, grappling and spear usage.
@@ziggydog5091 ...and you sound like someone who is grasping for straws. Take an honest look at the history of Chinese Martial Arts over all for the 20th and 21st century and tell me exactly where's the lie.
@@ziggydog5091 To put a finer point on it...Traditional Chinese Martial Arts isn't respected AT ALL in The Combat Sport Community FOR A REASON. You don't produce the results you all claim you do. Lack of investment in actually combat efficacy. THIS IS A FACT.
@@thecollector6746 see the issue is that “combat sports” isn’t combat at all, it is sports. Learn from a soldier or law enforcement guy that has had to do it for real, then you will know the difference. I have done all of it, the good ones can do all of it and teach you the difference. The Chinese government never arrested or killed kick boxers or wrestlers they love those guys, they aren’t dangerous, they did that to traditional combatives teachers, they love sportsmen.
Your point about use of boxing gloves in san da, is why we train/play barehanded...(though loads of people comment "put gloves on bro!") Great video!
There is a time and place for playing like you do, and there is a time and place to put gloves on and throw hands.
I've trained bare handed and with gloves, I think both are helpful, but I can do more hand work bare handed definitely
For me, I like bare handed a lot more than gloves. You just don’t have the training for sensitivity when you have gloves on.
Closed Door - Preying Mantis, Xing Yi, and Baji Quan are "Deadly" deadly (for sure) and keep those doors always closed.
Lucky enough to learn some SPM and Hsing Yi (at different times). Hsing Yi worked for me sparring Karate practitioners or TKD. SPM is very powerful. Several got broken ribs sparring at one school. One guy was knocked through a window.
Ainy they forms?
Very good video I also study Chinese Martial Arts for over 20 years. Everything you said was completely accurate. A lot of them just do not train fighting. My grandmaster in new york did make us fight, so we do Kung Fu a lot differently.
I'm glad you touch that sensitive topic explaining your point of view. Thanks
Your points were well thought out and presented well. I think you hit the nail on the head. The emphasis on forms or fighting functionality needs to definitely be emphasized.
I think there are new opportunities nowadays with 4oz MMA/Kyokushin gloves that the older Sanda generation didn't have. I am also aware of some Kung Fu schools systemitizing their styles more in-line with modern practices. However, it is still a big hill to climb. One last element is that the Kung Fu "convention of fight" can be very different than other styles. So many opening moves presume that a match starts with "crossed hands" instead of fighters separated into their respective, modern corners, that many Kung Fu practicioners struggle with how to bridge that physical distance effectively.
Good points. Crossed hands was a conventional dueling style in TCMA. Also with self defense being a large part of it, the two factors combined definitely reward a different meta. The skills to bridge the gap are there but definitely underemphasized...
The "Boxer Rebellion" ( Spirit Boxers) and Mao with the Cultural Revolution especially, changed it.
And 100 years before that with the opium wars
Spot on great video. Thx
Great video. You said it all. Unfortunately there's always some that prefer to live delusioned than try, test and improve their fighting skills. Keep up the good work 👊🏻
Koreans never had a strong empty handed martial arts history, but the ones who did were from military or authorities types of jobs and studied Chinese martial arts from Shaolin because they were in that region. They also adopted Japanese sword skills and other swords as well.
In modern times after Japan has controlled them they studied Japanese Karate. So the King fun and Karate mix eventually was combined into Taekwondo. At the time Korea has gone through wars and had poverty and crime. Taekwondo was a serious fighting art and killing system the same as Karate.
For similar reasons very quickly Taekwondo regressed to become a culture of sport and performance art. Similar things happened and Taekwondo was developed before the cultural revolution so any kung fu learned by some early Taekwondo founders was serious stuff. Now Taekwondo is really tones down and this is why so many cannot fight who are black belts.
I have similar frustrations as you but I'm not Asian. I just love martial arts and especially Taekwondo.
Also I met a Chinese Taekwondo master who told me there are actually super natural kung fun guys who actually can kill you with a touch. Superstition is strong in Chinese. I tried to keep in touch with him over Skype after meeting him in Korea but he eventually phased out due to him being scared the CCP would somehow find out he is talking to a pro capitalist American.
I usually love your stuff, but as a korean i have to disagree. Korea has a rich history of unarmed fighting dating back to the three kingdoms period, at least. Taekyon, ssireum, subak, kwonbeop, were all historical unarmed fighting arts that are distinctly korean in identity and were widely practiced by the working class masses. It was only the confucian upper class in korea that rejected korean martial arts, except for gungdo(archery). Most of the time the criticism for korean martial arts culture, even from the anti-korea crowd is typically that we lack armed martial arts, not that we lacked unarmed fighting.
As for copying japanese sword arts, korea has one sword form (waegeom) in its old military manuals that was, admittedly japanese, but that was hardly the mainstay of the korean army. Most korean soldiers were still relying on archery, spearmanship, and korean methods of sword fighting as a last resort. The idea that we didnt have swordsmanship before the japanese is just false propaganda. If anything we gave the japanese their sword making, meaning we initially influenced them. Arguably china had a bigger influence on korean martial culture than japan ever did and even the most patriotic korean would admit this.
I agree that taekwondo is being taken in the wrong direction, nowadays, but to say we lacked a martial culture and needed to copy china and japan is just false. And its an unfair double standard. Japan was heavily influenced by early chinese and korean culture, yet no one questions their martial culture or the legitimacy of japanese martial arts.
@@Nas97. But that's not actually true. If you look up the old martial arts manual muye tonghiji it says subak and claims it is a type of wrestling, but later says there are fists used. This was Chinese style kung fu as you stated, China had more influence on Korea than Japan. Likewise their swords were similar to Chinese and the manual states there were also Japanese sword styles adopted.
There is nothing shameful or denigrating to Korean culture in any of what I said. Martial arts came from Shaolin and Wudang. Just as Okinawa and Japan were influenced by these two Chinese schools, Korea was too. Korea has no evidence of having a seriously popular unarmed martial arts culture or styles in ancient Korea. Nothing even close to Okinawa. Koreans liked archery and had no need for unarmed fighting unless they were soldiers.
@@MaharlikaAWAFirst of all, ive read some of your blog. Youve been to korea so you should know that claiming our martial arts come from japan while somehow simultaneously claiming our unarmed martial culture was "not even close" to okinawa(lets be real here thats still part of japan) is in and of itself an insult and denigration to korean culture.
Second, what you said was actually false. The muyedobotongji doesnt mention subak. Your thinking of the samguk sagi from the three kingdoms era. The only unarmed art mentioned in the manual is kwon beop, which is influenced by kung fu, fair enough, but is still widely considered part of the korean martial arts family due to slowly being influenced by korean martial culture over time.
However, the other martial arts i mentioned are distinctly korean. Taekkyon has no known influence outside of korea, same for ssireum. Theres a few unproven theories suggesting chinese kung fu and mongolian wrestling influenced them, but there has been no solid piece of evidence confirming this. The chinese influence came mainly from the weapons techniques, which i dont dispute. But taekkyeon and ssireum had been used by citizen and soldier alike for thousands of years. If that isnt a strong unarmed martial culture, idk what is.
Also, as a final note, taekwondo is also korean and is influenced by taekkyeon
@@Nas97. No, nothing I said was an insult to Korean culture. Koreans in ancient times pursued scholarly things and were not about hand to hand combat fighting all the time. The Koreans who did martial arts were in the military most often. I am not saying no Koreans in ancient times practiced a martial art, some probably did. But the martial arts that they practiced were most likely similar to chinese styles. How is this insulting? Korea is connected to China and had tons of influence by them. I do not see much evidence of any real serious combat system developed solely alone by Koreans from ancient times. Subak is not a system, it just means fist fighting. Kwanbeup is a rendition of the chinese word Chuan Fa so it just means geneneric fighting style.
I own a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji, The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea. Sang H. Kim 9th dan Taekwondo grandmaster translated it into English. On page 311 it specifically says "In the Hansu it is recorded, 'The King watched the fist fighting (subak) and archery contests.' In the note it is recorded that su bak is a martial art contest of wrestling."
So according to my copy the word Subak is mentioned and says it is a hand to hand fighting it was a contest of wrestling. Does not sound like a serious combat fight to the death art. Subak appears to be a general term for grappling event. Not a specific style.
What you said about Kwanbup is true. It is chinese and it influenced Koreans to learn martial arts and of course over time Koreans developed techniques and skills but it was no a specifically Korean style. If they however did make their own style out of it where did they mention it? Karate was brought to Korea and Koreans studied it and made their own martial arts culture out of it from Japan. They then established their own Korean style of Taekwondo out of the techniques they studied and also more they developed. How is this any different than kwanbup or me saying there was not a specific serious martial culture in most of Korea ourside of the military? They did however love archery and the best at it.
Taekkyeon was a kicking and tripping game peasents did and also kids. It was not a serious war art or self defense art. BUt yes kicking with the feet and targeting top knots and tripping does have martial arts value. But there is no historic link that anyone can prove from Taekkyeon to Taekwondo. This has been brought up many times by historians. General Choi made up this link and talked abot Hwa Rang knights of Korea which is fake. Hwa Rang were dance and singing performers and knew poetry and were very effiminate boys. not warriors.
Yes Ssiruem is probably a Korean style. Even if it was influenced by Mongolian wrestling it woldnt take anything away from that being a Korean style of wrestling.
I don't understand why somany Koreans are fierce ethnocentrists who say everything was made in Korea blah blah. Every culture takes and gives to other cultures and people use things from other culture! Doesnt mean its not their culture anymore. Koreans using CHinese kung fu does not mean what they are not doing is somehow not Korean culture. Adopting things is normal. They adopted the weapons of CHina and made it their own army. So what? It was smart. Why woldnt the same thing happen with Shaolin kung fu that did travel up to Korea? There may have been some Korean buddhist monks practicing shaolin stuff and also developing their own.
@@MaharlikaAWAThe USA also didn't create anything influenced by Boxing which is Egyptian and Wrestling which is Greek after UFC 1 they fall in love with Brazilian Jiu Jits that Americans also doesn't create.
Very well said brother, as a TCM practitioner I couldn't agree more. These arts need to be preserved in their undiluted essence. Bless up!
Sir, i just found you this morning and this is the 1st video ive watched. Very well done. Ive practiced for 33 years, (japanese arts mostly but chinese as well), and I applaud you. This is my take on the arts then and as we see it happening today. Ive had this same discussion many times myself with the same points you have made. I can say your comment about there are those who have used this in war still being out there is absolutely true. I went to war with the teachings and techniques i learned and they served me well. Your analysis i believe is correct. We see this pattern happen in Okinawa, Japan, Europe and even the US today. It gives rise to new arts unfortunately at the expense of the old. This is ok but i firmly and fervently agree that the true warrior arts need preserving. I think you are absolutely correct in what you said and i am definitely going to share this with my class. Please keep up this kind of study and presentation as i look forward to more from you.
thank you
Thank you for naming something that many of us are thinking about :):)
Great video! And that looks like a Hanwei Ox tail dao (Paul Chen?) gorgeous Broadsword! Miss mine, the Cold steel one is top heavy.. that one is functional and well balanced, it feels like an empty hand. Trying to do my part in my area. 🙏🪔 Very similar background. After ten years of TCMA forms I knew I was missing something. Your dead on about "3 years of hard training".. I learned more about actual fighting in my first week than I had in all my previous training. Step one was- to get wayyy better at blocking 😅 Important to break delusions/learn real defense on day one..
This is well-conceived and I thank you for sharing your conclusions. I have been a student of several styles of Kung Fu, Tai Chi and Qi Gong for almost forty years and your ideas sync with my experiences as a martial artist.
I think most Chinese martial arts(of late, not originally) are more concerned about looking good and exotic instead of being actually functional, real fighting doesn't look pretty.
great commentary. Well thought out and well said.
With the new additions of sports sciences and medicine, better nutrition, and improved techniques we do not need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Even with simple additions of a weight and conditioning regiment, and crosstraining can be a great in one's traditional training
@@navajador I agree there's no need to throw the baby out with the bath water, I think better multidisciplinary understanding and people willing and incentivized to train and put in the work is the way
Zhou Zihe, The founder of my striking art which became Uechi-Ryu, did those military fitness exams. He could lift a 300lb stone. Good explanation of the history bruh🤘🏾
That’s why I stuck with the first 3 forms and two weapons, staff and the dao. Sum Chien gave me stance, relaxation, breathing, rooting, body alignment and springy strength. The staff gave me the bow and arrow stance. When I started San da I already had the foundations that I needed from the traditional Kung Fu. There are plenty of great Sanda fighters. Muslim Salikov and Chung Lee to name a couple
I am glad I watched this. you rock.
I reallt appreciate this socioeconomic overall political and economic analysis of why we dont see enough TCMA being practiced with effectiveness in mind. This was great and expanded my view on the wider issue surrounding it, so thank you and keep up the great work 😊
Good Talk ✅
Thanks for your expert outlook and support!!!
Another Reason through my own experience is that part of the "strength" of Kung fu is it's secrecy. Many masters feel that if you know my technique then you can figure out how to defeat it. Many masters also wait for "the one" disciple that never comes and the master dies with his art, while his regular students only received 1/2 the art.
Great break down!
I appreciate your perspective...while I have no interest in fighting, per se, I train for the martial skill. You are correct that the delusion is very compelling for most, but true gong fu is built over time through hard work.
You are spot on with everything you said
Great points! Agree totally!
I train Kong Han Ngo Cho Kun and we talk about this all the time. This needs to be talked about more. Instant sub sir 👍
Thank you. I practice Tai tsoo Kun, I Believe Ngochokun has a tai tsoo component!
@@the.wandering.warrior oh wow!!! Yes we are cousins 😁 tai tsoo is legit 💪
Thank you for your video and share your point of view, I live in Puerto Rico and kung fu as the rest of the world suffer from the same reputation, but what I found is a lack of knowledge of real combat scenarios and lack of sparring to test theirs abilities, instead a lot of ego, and belive if you perform well in forms you would likely sparr well. I think all martial community would be sharing our knowledge without barriers of which style or tradition is better, collect the best for each of us as trainers, teacher, sifus, etc and then share with students those venerable traditions, techniques that really works. But, always would be people trying to "moneytaize" and dilute the knowledge. Please keep informing and sharing!👍
very good analysis
We have a lot of martial artists that never feel the adrenaline of true fight you can't be a Fighter like that you need fight for real in a context you can be KO to gain experience.
Mao spent decades systematically removing high level martial families and masters from society. Some fled China, some went in to hiding, some were forcibly employed by the state. None were allowed to openly teach the original fighting methods of the old country, nor the healing and energy cultivation methods. Certain martial systems throughout history posed a serious threat to oppressive governments and subsequently suppressed. These systems often contain a highly sophisticated understanding of cultivating anatomy and kinesiology. In china, only a handful of martial families have access to these original principles.
Donyou have any good books or info sources of any of this historical info or contex? Id def like to research q lot of this myself.
try Chinese Martial Arts: From Antiquity to the Twenty-First Century by Peter A. Lorge, Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals by Brian Kennedy, Elizabeth Guo , and Violence in Ming-Qing China : An Overview by William T. Rowe
Great vídeo.
Im a fellow practitioner and when wil we try to fix it? Personally i have alot of ideas but to get some of the teachers to listen is hard.
As a mixed Chinese American that does Wushu/ or Gong fu, it makes me so sad to see the art the way it is now, and people always say they can beat me by doing boxing or Muay Thai on me, which could be the case, cause they might have more skill than me, but I think in the martial art world people need to be more mature and respect people for their culture and martial art. We shouldn’t disrespect other people. That’s one of the true essence of martial arts is respect. Also a lot of Chinese martial artists now are cocky and don’t really train actual fighting but rather theory or fantasy. So it’s make us actual practitioners look bad. It truly is saddening.i hope wushu will stay forever though and finally prove itself to this harsh world.
I feel like this perspective isn't shared enough, so thank you for sharing it.
I love my kung fu school. I love my Sifu. I love my siblings and the community at the school. That said, our Hung Ga Kuen (Hong Jia Quan in Mandarin) curriculum has about 5 levels and each level has about 10 forms. There are only 4 "pillars" (essential forms) in HGK.
I only have so many hours in a week to train martial arts and I just can't spend it on training forms. :(
*Editing to add that for many students, that curriculum DOES suit their wants/needs, and that's totally cool. It's just not what I need.
I feel you... its become a common problem in many TCMA systems to become forms-bloated to the point of not being so good for fight training, seven star mantis boxing and many others have this issue
What a deep analysis into wushu! I've gained a lot from this and found it very educational. Even though, I still believe that the internal martial is widely misunderstood, but that is the nature of a lot of inner work. People judge a martial art from an outside perspective looking in, they see a form and dont understand the fighting application, when the form is not meant for fighting, but is an adjustment of inner alchemy and the internal self. So, I think the internal martial arts gets a bad rep because a lot of people dont understand it's function. Yes, the fighting aspect has gotten diluted in the world of Chinese martial arts, but I think the primary function for a warrior practicing the internal arts was to keep the body, mind and spirit in fighting shape, meaning a tranquil and resilient soul that can endure the stress of combat.
Maybe the exception is Xingyi quan, which primary focus may have been the fighting aspect despite still being considered an internal martial art. But I never learned it, so I have an outsiders perspective on it too.
I think that the internal martial arts essence may have survived the most dilation from the culitural aspect. Since it is an inner work art, it didn't need a lot of revision to fit the cultural transition because it wasn't about speed and force in the first place. Tai qi is practiced slow and looks gentle, and ba gua already looks extremely performative. And while these two practices are very, very powerful, nearly all of its actual power is hidden from the naked eye.
Man, great video brother! ❤
Well said my friend 👍
Thanks man. I know you've seen similar things happen in the parts of the karate world... I respect that you're helping to turn the tide 👍
I got a question do you have to be really dedicated to going to the gym to be good at fighting or can you just be a healthy person and do fine because one of the things I heard about martial arts is you don't have to be really big and strong to when whin a fight but I agree you don't want to be extremely out of shape either
One of the biggest factors that renders Kung Fu ineffective is the lack of live sparring and changing it into "health forms".
That's not true it depends on the school Kung Fu may be ineffective but Gong Fu is very effective and real fake Masters is the problem there are no shortcuts to hard work
1.Health is first
2. Self defense
3. Sport
4. Educational, Becoming an instructor grammar School, Junior High, High School, collegiate military championships
professional martial artist
Many schools do spar, but still get the haters. There’s a clear prejudice against Chinese martial arts.
Imo this is slowly happening all over the world, specifically in first world countries. Seems like rhe conditions you listed are things that are definitely accelerated in china, but i see it in the US(depending on what neighborhoods, cities and states ur in of course) and from a distance have seen it in other countries too. Fascinating stiff.
Because to much emphasis has been placed on form and application and sparring has been lost. All the dominant martial arts predominantly focus on the application and the form within the real time action.
Great points. As documented many times on my channel, I like to apply modern training methods to my developing my Kung Fu skillset for combat. The unfortunate thing is, there's a lot of tactics and things I can't do... and I mostly do Kung Fu in more of the dueling combat sports like type of sparring (even sometimes doing it as MMA with Kung Fu kicks, but also sometimes as animnal style fists and patterns, though i am careful when it comes to hitting to the face due to the risk of eye pokes).... as for the self defense like apporaches from Kung Fu, where it's less impressive and more of the "dirty moves" likes triking the groin poking eyes and such, it looks more like Krav Maga when I spar like taht and it's where I go hard and then if I control someone on the ground I can carefully eye gouge their forehead rather than their eyes for instance... i guess you could call that Kung Fu since it's a big part of Tiger Claw and other fists, but it is as much Krav Maga like and street fight like. What I do where I draw most on Kung Fu is with agreed upon rules and sparring one one one without weapons, well I sometimes do Kung Fu weapon sparring, but I mostly try to put on a show and fight like in a wuxia movie with resistance, rather than approach it more seriously and warfare like.... my friend Damian Chan from the channel Monkeyfist however has more of that approach to weapon sparring.
kung fu mainly died with the cultural revolution. they didn't want resilient people in general. you can still find good gung fu but it's usually in an exclusive setting and those people don't like to broadcast what they know.
Good points in the video! All these things are big problems and they feed off each other. For example, the gentrification of kung fu in the republican era had a disdain for the delusional aspects of kung fu which were seen as backwards and exemplified by the boxers in the Boxer Rebellion.
Just curious, what style do you practice? Me, I'm Jook Lum Ji Tong Long Pai tradition. Bamboo Forest Temple Southern Mantis family.
Again,
Tony.
Tony, I came from a seven star and eight step Mantis boxing background and have also been training a Taiwanese style of Taizu Quan
@@the.wandering.warrior always thought 8 step Tong Long was cool. Never nobody near to train it with though. At 10 years old I started training 7 Stars Tong Long, with my first Sifu, Ho' Sing Fat. I was with him for 10 years until his passing. I then traveled to my uncle's school, Wah Lum Ji Tong Long Pai. Wah Lum is Jut Sao Tong Long, (wrestling hands mantis), and trained with him for 10 1/2 years. Then... WOW... Then I traveled again to my other uncle's school, Grandmaster Henry Poo Yee and I served him faithfully for 30 years until his passing in 2018. I've been teaching Jook Lum for a long time now. I'll be 60 this year. Time flies when you are having fun brother! Have a great day and train hard! I tell my students, Practice, Practice, Practice... It's the key to success! I'm also pleased that you wish to stop the death of Kung Fu... Me too. Be safe and go with Christ my brother. Tony out. Peace.
My Sifu, Sifu Yee, always said, that the problem is that Chinese kids want to be like American kids. Nobody wants to work hard anymore. I've been training for 50 years. I'm still training, and you don't find the kind of dedication that is necessary to endure the trials and training and no sense of pride. Sorry, but I agree with him. Train hard and stay the coarse. You will succeed. Your brother in arms,
Tony.
Yo! Let's start a movement and post content of open glove SanDa; win by leitai push-off or takedown - no points, no time limit. Or applying rules of combat sambo. Diversify the international fight sports, don't let muy thai and mma take all the lime light!
Hopefully one FC catches up.
Great video; sound content and a loveley set up!
Yes, as Chinese 5 generations born in Thailand. I ask my dad, i want to learn kung Fu to learn about our culture, he said if you want to fight better learn muay thai. I alway sobbing about, it why our martial arts is consider less effective. One day Chinese martial arts, kung fu will return to combative.
The Chinese are not the only ones that have gong fu they in fact are not the originators of Gong Fu. Muay Thai is close to Gong Fu and Silat you can see Dasar when they move the traditional style has the influence of a very old art that is not known by many
@@tiger7enterprisesllc73 what are you talking about?
What about Kuoshu fighting? Open finger gloves, very Chinese type of rule set. I always thought that was a way better format than Sanda....due to the gloves used alone.
IMO sport isn't close enough to combat to warrant spending a lot of time & effort on sport (a little bit is useful & therefore desirable). A little bit of sport experience goes a long way to help one understand concepts pertaining to distance, timing, aggressive attitude, etc.; but, a lot of experience in a sport can lead to problems in self-defense situations.
Martial arts were once widely known for their use of various deadly, maiming, or crippling techniques - & their targeting choices [battering the back of someone's head, crushing &/or pinching-off a throat, poking or boring into an eye or two, etc. - things prohibited by sport rules]. Of course some martial arts were also known for holds, but holds were generally for special use: usually for taking someone captive when one's mission called for such, or when trying to control say a drunk or a temporarily-upset friend that one would rather not harm. Sport can use holds because many can be used without much chance of harming someone; but, sport cannot use many of the various "fists," targets, & combat throws of many martial arts because they're designed to kill or harm; & since self-defense is called for when one's life is endangered it's likely one may have to harm someone - & their likely won't be a referee to help separate an individual from one or more foes & keep weapons out of the mix, a doctor standing by, or a trainer who can "throw in the towel" to end the situation; &, there will be no rules beyond local law or military orders (unless you restrict yourself - & of course a criminal or enemy soldier likely doesn't care as much about any laws on the books as you might; plus often a bad guy chooses when to initiate a physical altercation; so, self-defense/combat is not a fair, relatively-safe contest: it's not at all sporting; & maybe one is having to protect more than himself, & he might already be sick or partially disabled &/or have his hands full... again, it isn't a sport competition).
Some folk who do a lot of combative sports practice tend to use some of their sport-oriented techniques or mind-sets when in a self-defense situation (a boxer used to taped hands & gloves may break someones jaw - & his own hand - throwing a punch out on the street; or a 1-touch/hit type martial-art champion may stop the moment he touches a foe in the street - merely out of habit, as folk sometimes do the strangest things out of context to a given situation). Likewise, martial artists & sport practitioners who consistently practice in loose clothing but then don tight-fitting clothes when they go out at night to party tend to get a surprise if & when they try to execute a self-defense technique that requires mobility. And how often are sporting events done on slick, soapy floors, or rocky or cactus-filled areas, or hillsides, or around solid walls or furniture? Combat & sport are really 2 different critters (Venn Diagram-wise: they're two different sets sharing just a little bit of subset together).
Self-defense/combat - especially when 1-on-1 - is usually over quite quickly. A sport match on the other hand is often rather drawn out per management-request, unless there are many fights scheduled in a short span of time (because sport organizers tend to get an angry audience when a fight ends before folk have time to warm up their seats).
i wonder how different sanda would be if they had mma gloves and swaijao jackets? probably more similar to kudo
I fought in a format like that before, it is similar to kudo in some ways
What you're suggesting is to revise and modify these traditional martial arts, which as you pointed out have decayed from the practical and serious things that they once were. But in the state they are in, it will take a significant overhaul. So much so, that you can legitimately ask: "Is this even the same thing anymore?"
From an aesthetic point of view, it would be nice to be able to claim continuity. However, from a de facto point of view, how would this be different from creating a pure practical system from scratch?
Well it's not that complicated nor that great an overhaul. There's certain things to adjust in the pedagogy, there needs to be a fighting context, and that fight context (likely a fight sport) needs to be rewarded. The rest is marketing.
There's a lot of religious zealotry associated with kungfu. All it really needs is to be distilled again with pressure testing, and context.
Not everything is for the ring.
These days, I'm practicing whip stick, which isn't really useful in many situations, but it's interesting and practical if you are a hiker.
Realistically though, in this economy, we have no money or time for hobbies. Form unions. Build solidarity. Fight class warfare and the people will support those that teach us.
I am going to learn buck sing Choy Li Fut, I believe is the most combat fighting Kung Fu ever.
It's relatively better, but I suggest you also learn grappling or even do it first as the most essential part in martial art. Like, Judo, Shoaijio, Wrestling, Sambo, even BJJ will do.
@@Alexander-rd7bi That is my goal do want to BJJ, I might even learn Dog Boxing. Very similar to be BJJ. I do think BSCLF do also have take down, but it more like a smash
@@jasonkurtrix357 great for you! BJJ is an excellent complement to CMA. If it is possible, find BJJ school that also emphasize throwing techniques instead of just sitting down.
Choy li Fut when taught well is a effective fighting system as is Hop Gar , Shuai jiao & Ba ji.
According to Accented Cinema CZcams channel, after the Boxer Rebellion of 1899 - 1900 C.E., Kung Fu became a performance and shed it's combat utility by him and was preserved in Peking Opera and Canton Opera in HK. Then Wushu Taolu and Sanda and Taijiquan.
Kung fu practitioners from Hong Kong were getting their asses kicked as far back as the late 60s and early 70s when they went to Thailand and fought Muay Thai professionals ! Their emphasis on doing forms (kata) and not doing sparring and hitting punching bags and pads were their main downfall. I’ve done Goju karate and WC and now Muay Thai. Muay Thai has the most realistic type of training. BTW, Kung fu was called Kuo Shu meaning national or country technique when I was growing up in HK and was most commonly used as opposed to the recently popularized term such as Kung fu.Also the Japanese had bastardized the karate form’s applications and reduced them to block strike block punch etc and lost most of the grappling techniques.
There are probably numerous cultural reasons this has happened that I can't speak to but the big problem is clear, too many people don't spar and fight. It's all forms and traditional exercises/conditioning maybe some kind of push hands but not free form combat.
If the Chinese martial srts community wants a comeback there needs to be a culture shift some way, some how. Especially since more combat sports people are taking up a less brutal approach to sparring. Not everyone has to be left behind if there's change really no one HAS to. There can always be people who only show up for forms.
Kung Fu practitioners need to start practicing the application of their techniques. And do at least some very light sparring. It doesn't have to be like kickboxing or MMA, but with enough resistance to see these techniques don't just magically work every time. But a big problem is many instructors don't know the practical application of their techniques because they were never allowed to question their master because it was "disrespectful"
That's not true either some schools are simply watered down because of fake Masters can't seem an art ineffective just because the current teachers didn't get it right. There are real Gong fu artist out here and they do all of the above you named. Not being allowed to question the master shuts down ego of many black belts and higher ranks that come to learn the art after mastering the hard styles first like they should. Real Gong Fu isn't just restricted to China and Japan either. Bad teacher bad students bad future teachers don't try to blame it on the art. Everyone is in a hurry now a days it takes more than 3 years to master an art like this. Everyone wants their rank handed to them and they don't do they homework that's why they come up short operator error the art is the truth. If it was that easy everyone would be good
One thing I heard that makes me think you don't have to be really big and strong is I've heard some guys who are martial art CZcamsrs say that there's a type of force that martial art strikes have where it hurts inside first rather than outside traveling inside
You are right there is a science to the authentic arts that makes strength and size irrelevant I gave away my weights when I began to discover this and I no longer lift weights or focus on physical strength.
This is a great discussion that I think echoes across the globe and can be almost verbatim be said about the majority of martial arts. However maybe I can offer a point of hope.
If we look at Karate as an example of the trends that you are speaking of. Okinawan Karate has a long and rich history prior to Japanese takeover, being a combination of Ryukyu martial arts, Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts. Being a system originally designed to be used to protect Ryukyu Royalty, Nobility and Merchants, and was absolutely brutal and deadly. However after Japanese takeover in the subsequent years it broke into more formalized styles based more on what region you were from. The art would again see another large divide when it started to become taught in Japan. Not wanting to hand over the most dangerous parts of their national martial art to their oppressors it was modified to have deeper stances and longer, more numerous forms (kata). Some Japanese Karate styles having 30-40 forms with an emphasis on physicality and aesthetics. This more “modern “ karate was less self-defense and more sports especially after point based competition and mass training methods were introduced. As Karate started to gain popularity and global awareness even the knowledge what the techniques within the forms were supposed to be used for (bunkai) was either purposefully left out or just forgotten simply because those techniques weren’t “legal” to use in competition. As all this is happening there is a slowly increasing number of practitioners who claim “supernatural powers “. Then the internet age happens and mma becomes popular. Everyone starts looking down on karate practitioners claiming it’s ineffective because “kata doesn’t work in the ring”.
Now, while that was (a very) broad/brief history and decline of Karate. But I started by saying that it was a story to give hope. I think a good place to gauge the tide shift would be to point out a few very popular mma fighters like, Lyoto Machida, George St. Pierre, Chuck Liddell, Steven Thompson and Bas Rutten, all high level practitioners of traditional Karate from various styles like Shotokan, Kyushukan, Kenpo, and American Karate. This would spark a renewed interest in Karate. The internet and some very hardworking journalists would work to expose the scam or delusional instructors who claimed to teach the “magical” abilities. The you have “influencers” like Jesse Enkamp and Yosuke showing that there are still Okinawan Karate masters who teach the old styles and old methods. This has lead to a growing awareness and interest in these systems.
This is just using Karate as an example, but the same can be said about Aikido, Silat, and other traditional styles. I think the same can happen with Chinese Martial Arts. There are definitely still styles that exist that still teach effective more practical techniques. They are going to be smaller and less known about, but we are talking about a country that has actively suppressed the martial arts and martial culture in the past, as well as the great firewall going to be making it difficult to show these styles. As well as a government that actively promotes the flashier styles to attract tourism. Chinese Martial arts may be in decline but I think far from dead, and it can be saved.
if you keep having these conversations and keep up showing your passion for what you believe in, you can be the source of people taking another look at Chinese martial arts and fall in love with them as you have.
The think what is killing Kung fu in my experience is a lack of proper training people learn forms then never practice the techniques, they do pad work but not sparring, people do not practice techniques with resistance either. A lot of schools also get treated like cheap daycare by a lot of people and the older people that train are usually people that are learning because they want to play with weapons or do flips so not as many people want to learn to actually fight and to avoid injuries and liability issues many schools do not engage in sparring. Leading to people who want to actually learn just fighting doing kick boxing and MMA styles that are 100% about just fighting.
To build it back a proper school should have
1. Forms (cardio and the techniques)
2. Conditioning
3.pad work
4. Techniques ( with and without resistance to learn the flow of the technique and that people won’t be compliant and how to deal with it)
5. Sparring ( free sparring and soft sparring)
Great content, Vincent! Video was a great summary of how we've arrived at the state of Chinese martial arts today.
Wondering if you have any sources for the point you made that the martial arts were intended to turn an untrained individual into a fighter within 2-3 years? I found this claim particularly interesting as many, especially older, practitioners of CMA claim that it takes much longer to master the traditional arts, and they often use this point to justify things like 站桩, etc. I've seen them make the comparison to modern combat sports that they position, in contrast, as almost like a shortcut method to getting decent at fighting.
"The man makes the art."
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
In my opiniion the use of gloves is and always will be for the safety of the fighter .p.s.sanda is awesome.
I absolutely agree with these points, however, I think we also need to add woo artists making kung fu look like a joke to profit. They aren’t delusional. They know exactly what they’re doing
Say It Loud For The People In The Back!
Another reason would be the rise of HEMA, MMA & the internet. Western martial artists who 20 years ago would've went into some of these Chinese arts etc are putting that energy into our own combat systems as well as others they didnt have access to. I used to do asian martial arts but i had switched my discipline over a decade ago & now I teach European martial arts instead.
Smart man
simple my teachers way of explaining this is "dont make it a job" if its a job you are not going to make the student better than you ( you would leave out the crucial parts and you wont see it as friendship or apprenticeship to take the art to a new level). I only teach the art to people that wont make a living out of it. i can probably do teaching when i retire as well but thats about it. if money comes first then no art would survive 😅
In order to keep it you must give it away.
I think a lot of what you say is valid, but I also feel like you are in some ways getting sucked in to the feedback loop that is the modern world. Firstly, you say that styles were designed to be learnt in a couple of years not a decade; well that applies if you are living and breathing the style and training every day, but that is not the case if you are training, as most do, as part of a modern way of life. The trouble is people still want results in only 2 years, but with the heavily reduced commitment level, and so very few spend the time necessary to actually get good. Or they train for a couple of years, think they’ve got it and go and start teaching knowing virtually nothing in reality. The effects qi gong has in your structure and power generation is real and when applied to sound fighting strategies and techniques makes for a formidable fighter, but without it there is a massive piece missing. Another point I will make is that you are looking at this stuff with the luxury of the internet. This gives a very distorted impression of what is out there. It’s easy to assume that everything is online and if it isn’t there then it doesn’t exist. But that’s ridiculous. In the past you would have had absolutely no idea of what is being trained any further away than your town. Most styles and masters taught only a few disciples and passed their knowledge down like a father to their children. And this still happens today. But because they don’t have CZcams channels it looks as if that isn’t true. But the world is a big place. They are out there teaching a select few who will listen and dedicate the time required. Aside from firearms fighting hasn’t changed. A blade is a blade. Human anatomy is the same. Something that worked then will work now. So please, don’t get bogged down with all the charlatans who shout about their bullshit online, and know that out there exist some incredible traditional Chinese martial artists keeping it alive and possessing the ability to cause serious damage should it be necessary. Nice video though man, just don’t take the extent of your personal experience as a young dude and think that is all there is; the world is a big place.
Do you believe Bruce Lee and jeet kune do is the answer to all those questions? Even his use of segmented gloves? Allowing for grabbing, etc…
It depends on the fighter,not the style
Have to agree w/ you! Practice w/ real weapons 😳my late Sifu, wouldn’t use protective gear(except those who were scare)3styles practice are Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut(Hong Kong, version) Bok Fu P’ai! 68 now 😬
If you want to find Chinese martial arts that prioritize combat and not performance I'd look at the art of Kuntao as practiced in the maylay archipelago.
Sanda was created by combining Boxing, Shuaijao, Taekwondo and Kyokushin. That was to functionalize kung fu for competition.
Taekwondo and Kyokushin did not exist in the 1920s. Sanda is older than both, but was contained within China for the most part.
Choy Li Fut was one of the Chinese striking styles that Sanda pulled from.
I know what you're trying say - that Chinese martial arts nowadays is all fancy Taolu no actual contact skills but did you see Shaolin Yilong Vs Buakaw Muay Thai champ fight? The Chinese lower bian tui kick sat Buakaw to the floor many times ☺️
Well there are some things you don't want to do quick like body conditioning I've seen people who have done body conditioning quick and they have like wonky fingers and things like that cuz they want patient
Watch shanshou, sanda to know Chinese gong fu. The performance side is called Wushu. The fighting style is called Shan-shou or Sanda great fighting .
I don't think you watched the whole video 😂
If your life depends on it, but now it is not for most just like in the case of 2A. Most are complacent until it is too late
Thats out of 400 styles of kung fu existing. With an honorary mention of Mongolian Wrestling or Bohk if you include the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
In my humble opinion and only my opinion, they have taken the teeth out of the martial arts, over the last forty years now. All the original martial arts were for fitness and self protection. But then, they started to teach kids martial arts, and I’m speaking about all martial arts, Kung Fu, Karate Kali Bokotor Thai boxing, and so on. Now you have ten year old kids with black belts, who cannot fight or defend themselves in any way. Years ago a black belt meant something, it was a symbol of achievement, and they were able to really protect themselves, now days, a street punk can beat most black belts. It’s been too watered down. It’s lost its effectiveness. Young children have no buisness training in martial arts, the dojo’s dojangs and Kwoons. They are babysitters for parents, not real martial arts training halls. Very sad what has happened. Just my view, thank you for hearing my voice. Peace
There's still a place for hand-to-hand combat in modern society it would be very stupid if you were to get rid of hand to hand Kombat all together I mean the American military still trains hand to hand Kombat
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