Why Thumb the Blade? - Zwerchhau, Schielhau, Krumphau
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
- This is an explanation of the thumb grip as shown in medieval and renaissance treatises on swordsmanship. It's also a good example of the complexity in historical European martial arts (HEMA), which is far from the simplistic idea of knights swinging heavy swords with brute force and no finesse that many people seem to have.
A great source for medieval and renaissance fencing manuals: wiktenauer.com
How to search for HEMA schools in your area: www.hemaalliance.com/club-fin...
Where to find practice swords, sparring gear, etc: www.woodenswords.com/?Click=1799
Where to order reproductions of arms and armor (worldwide shipping):
ww4.aitsafe.com/go.htm?go=kult...
Thanks to Erik Bailey, the head instructor at Blood & Iron Victoria, for helping out with this video!
www.bloodandiron.ca/victoria/l...
/ bloodandironvictoria
If you like the shirt I'm wearing in this video, it's available here, along with other channel merch: teespring.com/stores/skallagrim
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Get in contact or see a list of my video uploads:
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My favorite online store for buying swords (worldwide shipping):
ww4.aitsafe.com/go.htm?go=kult...
Some recommended knife makers on Amazon:
amzn.to/1qjwMNL - Zábava
Dual wielding trebuchets pls
Too impractical.
You would need additional people to reload them.
I need a +5 dex for this
But don't tell anyone you leveled that up
I maxed my stamina instead x.x
it's fine, just use a bicycle charger powered electroshocker. It'll take all of your endurance to use it effectively
just wear Hunter's ring (Increases Dexterity by 5 points)
vexz LegendzZ Skyrim?
Skall, you're looking extremely healthy in comparison to your older videos. Just wanted to give you a huge congratulations man, good work.
Laughing at all the people who "aren't convinced" that the thumb grip works that well. Yeah, that's why the grip is written constantly in most of these German manuals huh? Must have just been a fad for several hundred years across multiple weapon sets.
Caleb Switzer seemed to be doing alright with the thumb grip at the Rose City Classic ;)
I'm sure the technique itself is fine and very useful. I don't see how actually thumbing the blade is necessary, though, since it's the turn of the hand that matters. In a way it strikes me as a bad habit since it creates a false limit to what kind of swords it can be used with.
See Skall attempting to thumb a sword with a disk-guard, declaring it a problem, rather than just using the exact same move without the thumb position.
Fervidor you turn the sword in the hands by pushing the thumb forward. This makes it so you can turn and strike at the same time.
That movement in itself requires the hand to turn around the grip, since you can't even get your thumb to the center of the blade from a normal grip position otherwise. This can be done just as well without thumbing the blade. I've tried it myself, it works just fine. It really seems to me that using the thumb is just an extra guideline that can be ignored.
Last time Julian leveled up, he put his skill points into sass. ;-)
Awesome video! Don't worry about the audio problems, sometimes the gods are not with us.
I absolutely love your videos on HEMA and I can't wait for more.
Stay awesome, and all hail the gods of steel!!
I recently started HEMA (after watching way too many of your videos might I add) and noticed when doing those strikes they were a lot more powerful when using the thumb grip properly. I hadn't really figured out why yet, but this video explains it very well!
Thank you for doing videos like these. I don't know how popular they are in regards to other video's but they are certainly appreciated. :)
(p.s. curse you for getting me sucked into HEMA. you know how weird it is to explain to friends/family)
I've really been enjoying these more instructional videos, thanks a lot Skall!
Dang, you've kept the quality up quite a while. Good job.
Great video. I enjoy your videos. By the way, the HEMA place where I train teaches the Krumphau differently. We turn the blade below, rather than above, if that makes sense. The reason we do so this way is due to the fact that the treatises specifically mention it as being able to counter ox guard (sword above the head and tip pointed at the opponent).
Our instructor demonstrated the version you showed on an opponent in ox guard, and showed exactly why said method doesn't work against ox guard: it barely moves the opponent's sword, and instead leaves you vulnerable to a thrust or cut (more likely thrust). Whereas, if you rotate the blade downward and up, it can safely cut an opponent in ox guard. At best, the one in ox can bring his sword down, at which point you just follow up by turning the blade and hitting him in the head; similarly to how you demonstrated your follow-up to the version of the Krumphau you demonstrated.
I'm not saying either method is correct or incorrect; I just thought I'd mention this yet another variation of the Krumphau.
That's really cool. Very subtle too. I had to watch a few parts of this video several times to see what you were talking about. I have to go try these with a practice sword now.
I love how educational your videos are. I learn so much! I would love to practice HEMA, but I don't think there's too much of it out here in Nevada. Thanks again for another great video!
This was super enjoyable and informative! Thanks Skall!
One of my favorite Skall videos so far.
Great video, quite instructive and interesting. By the way, I am not an english native-speaker and even with that I can perfectly understand what you're saying, you speak very clearly.
Wow great video for animation and any choreographers. Such a subtle detail with the thumb and flattening sword would be missed
Those thumbnails are just the best.
When I have the time, I'll have to take some HEMA classes... Your videos make it seem very interesting.
Great video. Perfectly explained 👌
Nice video... not much else to say really, just a nice, informative video. Good work to you and Erik.
great video, love it. Keep the good work Skallagrim
I love the pomel you have on the sword your using its simple but eye really catching
i wach skallagrim s8nce a yeae now and i really enjoy the videos his personality and the way he rewiev's stuff is really satisfying
Could you please do more videos on longsword techniques, theory etc? I'm trying to get into doing HEMA, specifically longsword now and that would be awesome.
I want to point out one thing: (straight to the point, the german way ^^) when you know your video has poor audio quality and you also know that you have quite some audience outside of native english speaking countries, you should maybe add subtitles in your video. I just dont understand what your friend is talking about :(
Yeah, subtitles or even just a manuscript in the description would be cool, and can be added even after the video is published.
I have no trouble understanding Eric and I'm german, so I really don't see your problem my friend. Sure the quality is poor, but you can still hear him well enough.
@@sebastianb.3978 Schön dass du ihn gut verstehst. Ich hatte da so meine Schwierigkeiten, obwohl mein Englisch ganz okay ist.
Aber egal, der Kommentar is auch schon drei Jahre her 😄 interessiert eh keinen mehr
@@JPFighter93 Naja, besser spät als nie 🤣
@@JPFighter93 Und dass ich seit 10 Jahren englische Manuskripte schreibe hilft wahrscheinlich mit meinem Sprachverständnis^^
Looking slim Skal, informative and excellent content as always.
Really good instructional video.
Thanks for sharing! I know it's a subtle technique, but it seems really effective it certain situations. Hopefully I get the chance to try and memorize this before I forget it
That was very informative, great video, Skall.
Outstanding, you rock Skall. Keep up the great stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would dual wielding zweihanders be effective ?
Ornstein no. The blades gain too much momentum. Even if you could lift and swing one in each hand you would not have the level of control needed especially at close ranges.
Ornstein Only if you meet the strength requirement
In drangleic yes, if you can powerstance them. In lordan sadly not that great :(
Depends, are they chaos infused ?
Jesus, people just cant understand sarcasm cant they
Excellent video. Thank you
hello, I really enjoy the channel due to your perspective coming from someone who is not a self proclaimed expert. I appreciate how you try to reason everything out as you study. We are of a like mind. Your singular ability to work with suggestions and ideas is what sets you apart from a lot of others. That said, I need to state that I also practice HEMA in the form of Fiore's Italian teachings and the basis of my study came from Brian Price and the Schola Saint George and about 6 solid years of SCA (techniques I don't use now). However, there are several things that they teach that differ from the mechanics and principles I use due to some epiphanies I had during practice. Keep up the practical work. it means a lot! Always look forward to the sword theory videos. Oh, something to think on...often but not always the longer weapon wins the kill when paired against equally skilled opponents. In principle, this is why one may favor a longsword. Given that it is long we try to play to that strength so that we keep our bodies out of harms way. Do you generally agree with this principle within reason and how does that work for you while using the thumb grips? Do you have issues with maximizing your reach or do you simply fight closer? I see the thumb positions as potentially cutting short of the target (all things equal and the opponent using standard grip). On the flip side, I also see it as very useful once a bind has been made and the fight has escalated from single to duo tempo and you are now much closer to the opponent such as you demonstrated.
That's the kind of videos i was missing these days
I think this video shows the complexities of sword fighting and how it does take quite a bit of practice and training.
a great video like always man, long time subscriber first time commenter( i think lol). was wondering if you could make a video on "what is considered a concealed weapon in canada". figured youd have a pretty good idea lol.
have a thump up for this video Skall.
I always get somewhat anxious when Skall puts the blade edge on his shoulder. I know it won't happen, but I keep imagining the video stopping half way because he just slices his shoulder open.
Hi skall, first would like to say, love the content all around, you are appreciated. One thing I would love to see is your thoughts on the trick weapons in bloodborne. If you have any spare time to record a ramble on it, I would be grateful. Either way, keep up the awesome content
loved these tecniques also seen in the Halloween Special! Btw I had good results in listening the "poor audio" scenes with an EQ pass at 80 hz to -25dB
This was great content, thank you.
When you got on the matter of being too close, it struck me as a good tool for versatility to get the most of your blade and reduce time between attacks.
That actually was super informative
I'm currently at the bottleneck of my longsword practicing, and this video shows up. :D
I noticed some of my movements/attacks leave big openings for opponents, not knowing how to improve them, but you open my mind to an other grip style.
I know where to go now, thanks Skall. :D
Siloseea Irenicus what do you mean by your attacks leave you too open?
I meant openings. :P
If your attacks are leaving you too open for counter attacks, try attacking into a guard. Long point, the flouge.... (I don't know how to spell that one lol) basically doing so keeps your point on the opponent and you can start the stabbing or feeling work into the stabbing.
very nice video !!! my thanks to you
Also, I use it while cutting with the false edge for better alignment. And with some thrusts. But yes, Zwerch, schiel and krump are the main reasons why we use the thumb grip.
As a fiorist I found this video to be very interesting! Our version of the krumphau (we call it the rompere di punta) is instead performed with a tutta Volta inwards rather than using the thumb grip.
pramilton blarpus fiorist?
practitioner of fiore dei liberi's martial art of armizare, a different branch of hema than what skall studies
pramilton blarpus because in my language a fiorista i someone who sells flowers
I read that as florist and got confused for a second.
Where do you study? I've found a school not too far from me that teaches armizare.
thumb cut the pivot point is your right hand normal cut your pivot point is on your body so on the thumb grip you can move the pivot point easliy so you are more nimble and a little less reach on the normal cut you have more power and a little more reach
Skall looks like a guy you would see in old sword fighting manuals.
Like these philosophy of use type videos.
I would appreciate the same topic on onehanded swords maybe with more indepth thoughts on body rotations
Shame about the mics, but it the audio was still ust clear enough so it's alright. Very illustrative video as always, Skal!
Hi skalla love your vids man, been following you for years now great work as always, hey do you think you could do a video on highlander of for honor? not specifically him but his technique with the sword, i never saw anything like that before it looks very interesting and diferent from say the knights of that game, if you already got a video talking about that sorry i didnt see it lol
Very good sir.
I just saw your ugliest and prettiest helmet videos, and it made me really want to see you do a video where you look over armours in Dark Souls, and give your opinions on how it looks and if it's practical. Because for as many really cool and what I would think to be practical armours that they have in the game, there are just as many stupid 6 foot tall head wrappings that provide more defense than you'd think haha. I'd love to see you compliment and or complain about my favourite game series, as it's open to a looooot of criticism in the armour department lol. Weapon department too, could do a small series on them sorta like you did with some fantasy weapons a few years back. Anyway that's just a suggestion and some wishful thinking of mine lol. Good video as always Skall :)
I bet you the Havel Set would be the most practical set....For a statue, anyway.
Hi there, great video, it is a complicated concept. I think it was not that clear, but it's initially a complicated motion that has a lot to do with angles and super tricky movements hahaha.
Thanks anyway XD I like your videos.
Left handed swordsmen vs (the overly common) right handed swordsmen?
IMO if you're not practicing your techniques with each hand equally, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
I disagree that you need to train in both hands, as one is inherently better than the other, and all of the time you would waste trying to make your weaker hand as good as you dominant one would be wasted training with your dominant hand. Rather, it is widely practiced in HEMA to execute any given technique from all directions. Krumphau can be performed from both a right and a left nebenhut, schrankhut, or wechseln ward, for example, and Zwerchaus and Shielhaus should also be natural for a fencer to perform from both sides, transitioning from any direction. I'm sorry if by "practicing your techniques with each hand equally", you actually meant "practicing your techniques on both sides equally"
Look up Dustin Reagan - he is one of the best left handed HEMA fencers in the world. He has a lot of great instructional videos too. They would be great for a left hander to learn the techniques, but are equally as informative to the right hander wanting to view and learn the mechanics of left handed techniques.
True, I was being overly broad in my statement. Training both hands works for me because, although I'm left handed, my right hand is my sword hand (strong arm). As I can use a blade (or gun) equally with both hands, I train that way.
right handed swordmen would win. Even naked, even without swords. They are Billions...
So you lefties should stay in your caves, and cover in fear. Never wake the sleeping dragon. You would be overrun
I also think this thumb grip adds another “false” edge, without winding the sword when in the bind, and also gives better support and accuracy when in, or passing through ox.
Thumbs up for the thump grip!
Awesome video. I think it might, however, complete your introduction to note, for example, that the thumb-grip mis-aligns your edge with the forearm, demanding a lot more power generation from the wrist and torsion of lever created by the two hands. It is difficult to resist force in the plane of the edge with these thumb-grip cuts which is why they are not always preferable. This is evident in how difficult things like krumphauen and the other such technical cuts done with this grip are tricky to perform on solid targets, and also that they are just slightly more difficult to recover from in the case of a total miss. While they are more convenient to perform in closer measure because your wrists can do all the cranking unimpeded by crumpled arms, performing powerful draw or push-cuts from the end positions of these cuts can be difficult where the wouldn't be if a fencer simply used footwork or angulation to free space and have a normal grip after impact. The demo at around 7:35, I understand, is illustrating a valid technique but on a shaky premise: Eric's first cut (with a 'standard' grip) is unsuccessful because he steps into measure noticeably earlier and walks onto your point. I don't have a long background in studying the Liechtenauer-centric sources but these are general observations. I know your aim for transparency and to provide honest, balanced information so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. Thanks again for the video!
Hema should pay you for these videos. You know for advertising them (I think thats the right word).
These kind of videos make me wanna lear Hema.
HEMA is just the umbrella term for armed martial arts based on historical manuals, it's not a company or organization.
I have a question im at school and can't practice with anyone do you have any suggestions on how to practice I've been doing forms but I don't know if they're very effective against air
Why thumb the blade? Because it has done such a stellar job! Well done, blade, well done!
that three second clip of him bonking you on the head, made me laugh, but i just love it 9:18
Hey Skall!! Would like to see you talking about chainsaw swords and others like that. Would be really funny.
He used to do vids on stuff like that. I think he got bored.
I think there is an added effect, once your touching the blade it makes it like an extension of your hand similar to holding a chef knife with some overlap onto the blade, As a chef it gives me much better accuracy and control, Just a thought.
*I wonder how far can a pommel be thrown with T-Rex arms... can it end them rightly?*
Yet another excellent vid, Skall! Nothing like a quiet evening enjoying my coffee and watching your content :)
when did you got that messer and are you going to make a reviev of it?
Hey skall, what sword is that? I mean the one with the light beige handle longsword in the beginning
Could you do an explanation about a few moves in different ways of fighting with a sword?
before i watch...my most basic understanding of the thumbing was for heightened control and maneuverability. is that close? not at all? either way ill watch and figure it out
it seems this grip is also useful for combat in confined spaces which as i discovered through home practice is a LOT harder than it seems.
Very nice video. You know, this sort of details, explained in many different ways with many different examples really let's me wrap my head around it. As a result, I can better fulfill my untold promise to write a story utilizing proper fighting techniques, even if the may be unrealistic because science/magic/aliens. Well, no so much untold now, is it?
So Skall. I've heard its good to oil a sword once a month give or take. So how much do you end up spending on oil for your large armory? Not to mention the time devoted unless you have downscaled your collection since I kept up.
I think the easiest way to think of it, is its like the forehand and backhand in tennis
Please make a video about whips in historical martial arts.
4:22 I honestly have no idea whether he's saying "it's not working" or "it's not zwerching"
Skall, your thumbnails are looking more and more like Lindybeige's every day lol
Nice video
Skaal, can you do a video on the Bloodborne trick weapons?
i'd love to see your take on them
Thecookierebel I would also love like to see him do that( if he hasn’t done one already) but I think we already know his general thoughts on fictional video game weapons (looking at you kirkhammer)
There is something applicable to bloodborne when he covered monster hunter weapons. The idea is when you have a lot of components to a weapon, it is vulnerable to stress at it's weak points and at risk of falling apart and becoming useless. I imagine it's true for some of the weapons like the beast saw, or the cookie cutter which has a lot of parts. That's not even considering the weight of the thing and how wieldable it is for normal people.
That's true. The beast cleaver looks way too meaty, I think you shouldn't be able to swing it properly without like 28 Strength requirement
Mario Lauw the beast saw is just that, a saw, it is an improvised weapon ment for killing beasts by bleeding them, it was actually made by the healing church so hunters would get blood drunk and turn into beasts, thus keeping a need for blood transfusion, so they can gain more power, as for the weight, it wouldn't weight too much, the only thing I can think of in Bloodborne that is absurd would be the whip sword and Ludwig's holy Swords shealth, everything else is coming pretty practical for what they are ment to be used for, in fact I even checked myself if any of the swords were overly thick and the only one I found was Ludwig's holy sword shealth, I even checked the moonlight great sword, and again checks out fine, size wise it's a bit longer than a claymore but distal taper it pretty much the same, lady Maria's sword is basically a Cutlass, as for the shape of the blades of Mercy, look at the khopesh
Appius Tuditanus it looks beefy but it's not, if you look at it in game you see it's not that big or thick, would it be practical against humans? Sorta, if you want to kill them slowly by tearing chunks out of them, but for it's actual purpose, yes it is perfectly practical for bleeding beasts, even the armor in the game is perfect for it's purpose, because it's lightweight allowing faster movement, infact the game tells you why they don't use plate armour, because it was too heavy and the beasts tore through it easily, meaning it only slowed them down, and the fact that the humans turning beast can use guns, and we have seen what bullets can do to plate, it's also why it's not used today, but let's use some people's logic of "but if it was real life" if you faced with a giant beast would you use such a weapon? If it was my only option then yes, but I would be more worried about turning into one
... That was very insightful, I learned a lot from this one. Thanks Skall. >):^]
Is there some place where one can look for materials to get into HEMA? I have looked and there are no in my area. It's sad realy
WAIT WHAT MESSER IS THAT?
I believe that is the messer sold by arms and armor
+Skallagrim question: could you use a pick-axe as a effective weapon? For example wielding a pick-axe and a shield or buckler. I think at the very least it would be a good militia weapon if one has no spear or sword on hand against an enemy raid
8hn8n a pickaxe is not that heavy. It is at most 3 pounds depending on what is used to make it. Which makes it lighter than the armor slayer.
Yes I know the armor slayer not the best design but a mace is also around three pounds
Against plate, it could actually be quite effective. There were several weapons designed to actually pierce metal plates. The big problem is that the long point could easily get stuck in armour or between ribs. Against multiple enemies an absolute no-go.
Hey skall, what is the sword you have in this video? Looks really nice
What practice swords would you recommend using I don’t have a hema club near me so
Hey @ Skallagrim have you seen the anime movie sword of the stranger? If so what are your thoughts on it? I thought it was awesome.
How is it with handling? Sometimes you hold sword with the dominant hand near the cross section, and sometimes next to the pummel. Where is difference in technique, do you change handling mid-combat or going into battle just with one of it... you probably know where I'm pointing right now so... Thanks for answer, W.
P.S. Not sure if there isn't some kind of this video by you yet, but would you make a video only about all kinds of master cuts in HEMA? Y'know, Krumphau, Oberhau, etc. with process how to perform them correctly and how to practice them.
What would you say are your absolutely essential basic techniques to know in order to survive a sword fight? Rated for efficiency and variety?
Hey, Skall, what sword is thst in the thumbnail? Also, nice video. Very interesting!
Because the thumb is the pommel of your hand.
Throw the thumb!
Hey Skallgrim, i want to start Training in HEMA but i am having some issues finding a good resource for viable Manuscripts for a beginner. there are no HEMA schools in my area of Canada unfortunately. What would you recommend for a Beginner or an online resource that I can use to find the information? Thank you.
blood and iron? that is a seriously awesome name!!!! :O :D
Any chance of someone adding subtitles for the poor audio section?
The term for a swordsman who uses Zwerchhaus too much: Zwercopter....get it?
Isn't this mostly used in certain types of German longsword fighting? Also where did you get your arm protection you used in the video?
is that the fabri armorum longsword?
hey skall I live in Ontario and going to BC for 2 weeks in a student exchange. I REALLY hope to see you, althought I have a 0.000001% chance to do so. a dual would be nice, althought its only my dream...
Interesting, in Italian longsword we only use the thumb to throw offhand cuts, the idea being that the thumb gives extra stability when your dominant hand can not.
Great video. Still don't understand that sideways krumphau though. Would love to see a video on how that interpretation wa arrived at. It seems like using it as a beat would be super dangerous. My knowledge of this comes from rapier fencing so maybe i'm missing something, but the way i understand it beats are allways super dangerous because if your opponent just moves his sword (in this instance just rotates the blade to throw a head cut) your blade is way out of position and provides 0 protection. The krumphau thrown in a more vertical manner keeps the point online and can still be used as a beat in the same way you showed the schielhau being used. What am I missing?
Think of it as constrainment. The opponent's blade is not just beat aside, the krump also establishes an overbind from which you can do a covered thrust. A cut also works well from there, and it's fairly safe due to the offline step that is done during the krumphau.
That perfect sword placement, I couldn’t even see the blade. 🤣