There are actually 5 Roles in Overwatch 2 - Role Theory + Team Comps
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- 0:00 - Intro
0:27 - Why Role Theory is important
2:45 - Main DPS vs Flex DPS
3:50 - Exceptions
4:48 - Pairing DPS
6:33 - Main Support vs Flex Support
#overwatch2 #overwatch - Hry
This is an awesome video! well explained and good info! my only criticism for this is that for the support category, a lot of middle rank players are gonna be confused by Main support and Main healer because they're not the same. I think it would be really cool if you could make a follow up video explaining that difference because even though lucio is a main support, he's actually an off-healer not Main healer. Im sure you know but for anyone else reading the comment: main healer provides the bulk of the heals (think moira bap ana etc) whilst off healers still heal but most of their utility come from other abilities - Lucios speed, mercys damage boost, zen's discord. So if you explain that it would explain why double flex support works but not double main support.
ALSO please do a video on tempo and maps it would be really interesting !
p.s mayo sucks, ketchup supremacy!
Pinned :)
You're both wrong! Mustard supremacy!
@@blaynegreiner9365 i don't like mayo , ketchup or mustard
no condiment gang wya
Yep, I think of the supports in that way too (Main healer and off healer). I believe the previous terms are antiquated because they were established at a time when OW did not have a lot of variety.
Despite the importance of Role Theory, unfortunately "optimal gameplay" was lost with the advent of role queue as it was no longer possible to run a team of all torbjorns. PS: Nice vid! XD
Torb supremacyyyy
they had us in the first half ngl
Torb: I need healing!
the other 5 torbs: Acknowledged!
No limits exists
I love doing no limits 5 torbs on attack. Get them all on the payload and it’s just a moving ball of death
Used to be 6 roles in ow1 because of main/off tank. As a person who was played exclusively off-tank (with my main-tank duo) ow2 feels like an extremely different game and I really miss that tank synergy and the feels of comradery. That said, I did reach much higher rank here in ow2 but I enjoyed this game way more with my tank-buddy.
I feel you 100%
I really think Overwatch 1 should still exist as a separate game.
Same so now we play apex like I remember when we reached gm together and when the shatter buff came out the grav shatter combo was so fun
@@stitchperlo9639 yea, me and my friend play valorant, fortnite and open q together. But yeah, gotta farm that role q rank (been playing this game for 5+ years, in too deep at that point) so we have to flex for each other.
@@iinkshade they are just scared cuz many people would just play this instead and the servers for both games would be kinda dead.
I always get confused between "main support-flex support" and "main healer-flex healer" but thanks to you, I can confidently pick my support to help enabling my teammates better
I’m really glad you’re learning
I feel community's obsession over terms "main" and "flex" is really weird. The roles did use to make sense. Not so much anymore. This video is actually pretty helpful in recognizing "right" DPS pairings. As of supports this video does not really tell anything about optimal pairings. Quite the opposite if you read it so that you must always have one main and one flex support. Author did point it out but not visible in the graph: E.g. Lucio and Zen are not good pairs. Also two main supports CAN work if you run Lucio/Brig in brawly comp. Mercy + other main support usually is not optimal though. Also this video has really weird definition for "Main support" and "Flex support": one requires active aiming and other doesn't. This is the first time since the launch of OW1 when I hear such definition and frankly it's wrong. If that would be the definition then wouldn't Zen be a main support? And arguably also Moira and Kiriko (neither are that aim intensive). In real world supports are not picked based on these categories anyways but rather are comp specific: Rush comp --> you want to focus on either high healing output or high healing+mobility (Lucio,Brig / Lucio,Moira / Lucio,Ana / Moira/Ana, etc.). Poke comp/double sniper --> you want damage boost so you want to have either Zen or Mercy on your team. Dive comp --> You want mobile supports but preferably also damage boost (Mercy, Zen, Kiriko are all good picks). If you are running more slow paced brawl/bunker comp then Bap is the king.
If you want to be a good team mate adjust your hero selection according to team composition. Who decides the team comp? Unwritten rule of this game is that you should always follow you tank's example. Tank is the most important role and really dictates the pace and style how your team needs to play. So wait for your tank to pick his hero and adjust accordingly --> Profit!
@@-KFAD- Thank You. This Helped me a lot
@@brench9118 Np, I'm glad you found my wall of text useful. :)
@@-KFAD- I think the wording he said was not the best, it’s not about flex supports needing aim, it’s about what main supports bring besides their primary fire, all flex supports are reliant on their primary and situational utility, while main are reliant on abilities that fundamentally change the way teams play, like Lucio speed boost, mercy rez, and brig just being a pseudo tank with aoe heals, so basically, you don’t wanna swap off main support because it’s hard to adapt so pick for your tank at the start, but swap as needed when playing flex so probably pick for your dps or other support, your very right about needing to pick more for team comp than filling roles, but good team comps normally fill these roles and the video should’ve had a better explanation of support dynamic and how to pick to work with tank
I would add sombra to the list of exceptions due to the prevalence of ball sombra/tracer comps, since these days you usually want your main DPS on sombra and your flex DPS on tracer if you can help it.
Why would you prefer your main dps on tracer over Sombra? This concept of main and flex dps is new to me as I don't watch overwatch league so please forgive me if it's obvious
@@assimilater-quicktips did you mean vice versa, or did u read it wrong
Yep I was about to say the same thing
@@assimilater-quicktips flex player swaps if something in the enemy comp changes to disfavor your dps roles. because sombra is mostly used to disable enemy tanks and supports you'll want them to stay and to swap tracer to another dps to pressure enemy dps with your tank
@@assimilater-quicktips Late reply but most of the time it's just how good the 'main dps' or flex dps are at tracer and sombra. Case in point, Atlanta reign runs Stalk3r (Flex Dps) and Lip (hitscan dps) on Sombra just because Lip is just the absolute god of sombra and Stalk3r is also insane on tracer. Basically, it's just who is more comfortable on which hero.
I do wish you’d went into off tanks vs main tanks. I know it’s not relevant to overwatch 2 but for people who don’t know it would be interesting and I think the explanation would help people understand how tanks work like why some tanks are better at peel or defense than tanks who are good at taking space.
Definitely break down main tanks and off tanks in the next one. I love the tank variety now and only thing that i feel is missing is a raw utility tank (outside of a shield lol).
Too hard, just going to sit in the middle of the point as DVA sniping people with shotguns and face tanking free damage i could easily avoid.
@@JJ098 I already knew I was asking him to do it for other people
Also note that Main/Flex support originally stemmed from Lucio being an absolute must pick. In the early days your main support only played Lucio and your flex picked around what was needed, sometimes even going Mercy and ending up with what now would be a double main support comp. When Mercy/Zen became the main pair due to Moth Meta with 30% discord, your main support players had to pick up Mercy. I remember Custa specifically being a flex support player, but because he had a good Mercy, he had to transition to MS and eventually play Lucio after GOATS became hard meta.
This made me understand this game on a whole another level.
A couple of notes as a top500 support player: Maim support pairs are actually quite effective due to high survivability. A big issue with flex support pairs is vulnerability, it has a high potential of carrying but also a very high potential of getting contested and losing out on the skill matchups. Kiriko is partially OP due to her ability to both frag out mechanically and have guaranteed healing/ high survivability
Sombra and tracer I'd said are the only heros that both hitscan and flex players must know. Widow is almost exclusively learned by hitscan players these days, reaper is sometimes played by both but like reaper doesn't take much to learn and is rarely meta anyway
Yeah but as Avast would say, it doesn’t matter if Reaper is easy to learn if you don’t have the reaper gene you won’t be successful.
It was meta in season one when everyone on overwatch league player Winston sojourn reaper Kiriko Lúcio
@@krtr kevster certainly does not have the reaper gene
I wouldnt say you need to know both, but you need to know one. Usually flex should learn tracer and hitscan sombra due to the commpn composition styles of today
@@krtr what's a reaper gene?
Interesting, I always would tell my friend about burst dps and consistent dps being important in lower ranks. Essentially having two characters who have burst damage or are focused on getting picks isn't as optimal as one for picks and one for laying down consistent pressure.
This isn't exactly the same idea but I'm glad to see a better formulated version of it. I always called them "Daggers and Hammers", you want one of each, precision and persistence.
wow, players like you really shock me, I don't understand how you can already be so wrong then watch this video and think it's right 😂
Wonder if new heroes will change how we define roles again. Old tank roles got really weird after ball, sigma release and hog meta. I hope they do just so the theory crafting stays fresh
We need the defense role back.
Adding defense as a role would hopefully not change too much about the actual heroes, but just divide them by their specialty. Main DPS seems like the logical choice of the type of heroes that would go into it, since they are focused on covering an area with consistent damage from their weapon, i.e. area denial/defense. Flex DPS can be attack since they are focused on opening holes and exploiting weaknesses with their abilities, helping their team make a play/attack.
tbf, those heroes got categorized pretty quickly at high level. Ball quickly became Main tank as his strength was in creating space much like other main tanks. Sigma quickly lumped into Off tank since he held space rather than created it. That's how (i at least) define a main tank and an off tank. while sometimes they could do each other's jobs, that was my primary difference in ow1
@@CheetohMilk sigma is so good on payload maps because he can force people to back up
I usually differentiate Supports between Healer and Utility. I’m unsure how main and flex supports contribute differently to the team other than personal play style, and i didn’t quite get that from the video. It touched generally on comps but i didn’t feel like it delved much into why. Hope to see that in another video.
i think that the groups in the video (except for Moira being flex dps) do line up with that distinction, it is how ive always thought of the difference but i guess the video just provides a new perspective on what the roles can mean to a comp
Ana provides huge amounts of utility and healing. And what do you classify as utility? Anything that's not damage or healing? If that's the case kiriko and brig also fill both. Lifeweaver also fills both. Zen would be heal oriented as well. Simply due to having more heal based abilities than utility ones. Ult and orb. If dmg Is utility all of a sudden Moira is also a mix between the two
Main supports dictate pacing and initiation. Flex supports provide midfight utility.
Main supports (brig/mercy/lucio):
Lucio = fast tempo, hard initiation
Mercy = slow tempo, play for poke/rezzes
Brig = countertempo, quite versatile. Mainly for surviving commits from the enemy team and pushing when the enemy backs off, kinda mirroring whatever the enemy's tempo is.
Flex supports (bap/zen/kiri/ana/moira) all provide some midfight utility, even if its just staying alive (in moira's case, fade allows her to essentially never be caught out, meaning her midfight utility is just uptime and heal output).
I agree, Lucio might technically be a main healer but his use comes a lot more from his speedboosts bringing a rush down team into the fight quicker. Meanwhile an ana might be an off healer but her utility tends to be healing your team to keep them alive and the antinade and the sleep dart tend to be the secondary purpose of the character (especially with them constantly nerfing sleep dart). The funny thing is thats how I remember primary and off healer being defined in ow1 how much their use is based on healing (ie mercy ana bap moira) vs how much their use is based on helping the tram engage/do damage (zen lucio brig)
@Daniel Gertler No, lucio is an off healer and ana is a main healer, but they are main support and flex support respectively
I would love a follow up talking about the team comp in relation to all three roles (i.e. pairing which tanks with which combos of supports and dps and such)
Great video. Tracer can almost be in a category all to herself. One of the only heroes where you can be a "one trick" at the pro level and still be incredibly important
Amazing insight, I've always been intrigued by strategy's and you've made it far easier to understand a complicated subject. Fantastic content as always!
This was amazing. would love to see more on this. great stuff Krow
Sym is usually played by the hitscan player in rush comps
Excellent video. There's discussions to be had around how this can actually be translated into the Design Structure of the game as well, with different criteria for designing heroes based on a lot of the same logic. Great breakdowns and explanations, especially in pointing out the value this has for Lower/Broader levels of play in the population (who make up the vast majority) and how it can teach them to play it at a faster and more detailed pace.
If we could get a video on things like tempo it'd be extremely helpful. This was awesome KROW!
This is invaluable info. I've never cared about the pro scene or comp matches, as I like to play for fun; but I've noticed that some matches are drastically harder to win than others. I've noticed that my "hero knowledge" or general ability in the game aren't enough and couldn't put my finger on why that was. This "flex" aspect of team composition explains everything to me.
I was expecting a lot more of an explanation for the composition strategy. Building a team is 100% more effective when a hero has a similar plan and knows which composition is strong against another comp. Dive beats, poke, poke beats rush, rush beats dive. Picking around the map type and knowing when to counter vs. mirror. Also is ranked this is mostly pointless since most people don't communicate or work as a team regardless. But that being said, it's still good to know which heroes are synergies, etc. Don't play bap if you have phara etc if your tank is dive, make sure you have dps that can dive as well and heals that can be effective at range or dive with. Etc
Me: I am going to play reaper, and you are going to like it. If they pick Pharah, I will find a way to get on her height.
As an occasional Pharah player, you gotta be pretty damn good to catch me out. I can force Pharah into anything less than 3 hitscans: DVa and Ana count as hitscans, Bap or a good projectile/shotgun player is like half a hitscan depending on skill. Anything over 1.5 hitscans gets really difficult, though. Space becomes really limited when there's more than 3 people looking at you, no matter who they are or how bad they are.
@@mage3690 Not anymore. What goes up must come down, and then it's over.
I might be worth mentioning the bap has sometimes played the role of main support in owl.
I would love you to go into more detail about support picks. I’m curious as to why Lucio+Zen wouldn’t be wise compared to Brig+Zen or similar scenario. I do fairly well switching between Zen/Moira/Brig/Mercy depending on what is needed, but now I fear I might not be making the right choice due to role theory. My general rule when choosing has usually been if the other healer goes with a more single target healing support, I’ll go with a multiple target passive healing support (and vice versa). So in that sense I still have been choosing Brig when Mercy is picked by the other player. Had no idea that combination would be considered not optimal. Super interesting.
Zen+brig works in poke comps because you have zen spamming discord orbs and laying damage at range, whilst brig is there to protect him. lucio is more effective in rush/brawly comp where he can speed in to engage or speed out to disengage. essentially one wants to fight close and the other far.
It not depends on you more that comb your mates want dive or poke widow, cassidy or tracer, Sojourn
@@starquaker5724 thanks for the explanation!
Why is he playing in korean lmao
Noticed the terms thrown around a lot, always wondered what the hell they meant. Some explained it very flippantly, but I'm very happy this is presented and explained in a concise and effective manner. Glad I stumbled across this channel a while ago
Brilliant, thank you so much for making this!
Given the supports unique abilities, maybe supports can be divided into 'healing focused' and 'tactic focused'. Lucio is one tactic-focused example at the moment. Another example may be Moira, which has less impact on the teams tactics but has the potential to output great amount of healing to the entire team during a short period. Having one of each would allow the team to have abilities to create opportunities and still have enough fault tolerance.
supports r so complicated classifying them by only 1 thing rlly isn't telling u even a fraction of the picture like Mercy Zen, Lucio Zen, Lifeweaver Lucio and Lifeweaver Lucio all feel SO BAD while they should be "fine" but they aren't bcuz of other details which these terms just don't provide..
there is a classification for this actually. main healers and off-healers. main healers have a good healing output (ana, bap, moira), and off-healers have less healing potential in favor of damage or utility. (lucio, zen, lifeweaver, brig, mercy) kiriko is kind of the middle ground. she can function as both if she needs to.
Support Job is not based on healing anymore
Wish you went into better detail with the supports. I don’t see how/why Zenyatta is classified as a flex support if “main” supports are low aim intensive and have generally lower healing output. And why are the supports who don’t have to focus on hitting allies called main healers, would it not make more sense to call those the flex supports??
yeah i've never understood this distinction either. makes no sense to me.
I intuitively understood some of this but never fully had a run down- good video.
This was really insightful, to the point that I'm actually rewatching it
Sombra is a weird mix of support and DPS, but I honestly consider her to be more of a support character as her abilities are more focused on enabling her team rather than raw damage and eliminations.
I notices a mistake you made in the video, You accidentally put Brigitte as Main Support instead of Flex Tank.
For supports, the terms Main and Flex come from pre-role lock when Mercy was OP and sometimes run as a solo support on pro comps. Mercy was your main support because she was strong enough that you were always going to have a Mercy. Your flex support literally flexed to other roles. For instance, early NYXL games sometimes had Jjonak on Roadhog for certain points (Junkertown A defense, for example), and then swap to Zen or another support for later parts of the map, or if they got countered.
When GOATS came, those Mercy players went over to Lucio and the Flex supports went to Moira, then Ana, and eventually Zen and Bap in that comp. Brig was usually played by a dps player, but with the introduction of role lock, she also got absorbed into the Main support pool.
You explained things very well and I liked the way that you would speak your sentences. I would suggest less of the music or less active music, I know other channels who make similar content to you do it but you have a different feel too you.
KROW. You're an amazing teacher. Thank you. I hit diamond because of you. YOU are why I am good. I hope you understand that you have had a huge impact in how I play. And it means a lot. Thank you.
u might like this guy called A10 as well. Watch his orisa unranked to gm, i watched that and i kid u not, i moved up 4 ranks
@@willmcclard206 wow bronze 5 to bronze 1, impressive man
This was actually really interesting, gonna start thinking about this more and see if it makes a difference
it's been a while i haven't seen a good video about that game. finally someone who ask the good question and answer it with sens.
For DPS I get 17*16:2=136 different comps and for support it's 9*8:2=36 different comps like you said, so I get in total 11*136*36=53,856 different team comps. Or have I done a mistake?
I get the same answer as you
Yeah, our guy must have used chatGPT to make his calculation. You and Jeoshy are correct. It's C(11, 1) * C(17, 2) * C(9,2) = 11 * 136 * 36 = 53,856
i think that 54,252 different compositions is built on an order of the composition rather than what heroes are selected. like counting genji+sojourn and then sojourn+genji as two different combinations.
If the order did matter there would be 11 * 17 * 16 * 9 * 8 = 215424 different comps
i looked at the thumbnail and havent watched yet but this visualizes almost exactly what ive always thought going into a game, i dont think picking 2 hitscan dps is the end of the world but i feel like its so important to have like, a main heal support and then a utility support
High high quality content! Thank you for this class!
Very interesting too, I think you could even go further with it by splitting tanks in to offensive and defensive. There are some whose function is to get in to the space and shield, either literally and figuratively, and basically provide defense in that spot as you repeatedly nudge closer and closer to the objective.
Other tanks are meant be offensive, and just keep hitting W and get max value by being right in the brawl and causing chaos in the enemy front line.
There's definitely something to the interactions and effectiveness of tank pairings with main/flex DPS and support. My guess is that the optimal play is to play defensive tanks with long-range hitscan main DPS and Baptiste, but offensive with say Lucio and melee/projectile DPS that will benefit from the close proximity.
I am from the time where main healer meant you were able to heal the entire team. And off-healer meant you had a team-saving potential ult.
I thought It still meant it that's why this video was weird to me
You're equating support to healer which isn't the same thing.
healer refers to support in their healing capacity
Support: refers to a support in their entirety; there utility, healing and damage potential.
This video hit me with a counting problem in the first minute.
I don't get the math, in the context of this video shouldnt there be 167,552 different team compositions? 11x17x17x8x7
Hey man! First of all great job! You give a very compact, well argumented analysis and explanation whilst keeping it vibey and fun to watch. It is also a widely talked about yet not worked out complex problem. Take that like and sub just after the first 1,5 minutes. You deserve to grow!
Okay so after 45 min of searching with chatgpt, audiotag and shazam... I still couldn't find the first vibey song :')
Could you add it to the description by any chance?
Moral of the story, play Tracer.
Actually, it's I like Mayo :)
Since there is only 1 tank in OW2, I don't think the concept of main tank/off tank is as useful anymore. I think knowing when to choose which tank, and how to best choose a team composition overall makes way more sense when you group them into Dive, Brawl, and Poke tanks.
It definitely doesn't have the same impact in terms of comp building, but the distinctions can be useful in differentiating how to play tanks: reactive + giving up space to capitalize and re-engage vs engaging first to disrupt or hold the frontline would be an example.
@@KROW_OW Hmm... Interesting frame of reference. I'm so used to the rock paper scissors of brawl poke dive now, but I can see how your description of off tank/main tank could be even more foundational. Definitely looking forward to a follow up video more focused on tanks.
Your #1 Brig video was super useful, thanks for the great content!
I don’t really see the point in splitting supports by whether or not they aim. Would it not make more sense to split them by area heals or single target healing? Or by range, type of utility or damage even?
I think main heals vs main support can get a little confusing 😵💫 I’m used to thinking of support as “main heal” (focuses on doing large amounts of heals) and “off heal” (doesn’t do as much healing numbers but focuses more on utility) so it can be confusing for me!
edit: for example, the main heal vs off heal mindset makes it very obvious not to pair Lucio and mercy-both of them get more value off of their non-heal utility like speed boost and damage boost so it just doesn’t make sense to pair them since neither gets their main value from heals, they can get way more value doing something else so overall it won’t be enough healing if both of them play the hero the “correct” way
as a grandmaster dps i found this video helpful
does Zen Brig work? I thought Zen would be main support since you can throw discord and healing orb onto someone and forget about it and focus on dealing damage. Also the fact Zen doesn't have a high healing output
Zen Brig is fantastic if you have the coordination to execute that specific comp. Ball Tracer are good options in that comp because they can survive with health packs / repair packs / orb. The other dps is situational, in a mirror, you probably want Sombra, for example.
@@smokeguz i would caveat this with the fact you really wont see this work very well before diamond/masters with people comming, i havent seen this work out in gold/plat ever (or at least very very rarely)
@@curtgavin7845 Yes, of course, you need some minimum communication and of course mechanics/game sense always help. In lower elos a similar structure that might work better (with a very different function) is Zen Mercy, replacing Ball with something less demanding like Sigma!
main supports are generally listed as supports that provide utility for your team specifically, brig fits more into that in a brig zen comp, fs is also considered to be more mechanically demanding than ms and for zens case, a discord enough is enough of a playmaking ability to classify him as a fs
Trying low healing comps is a good way of learning the game. Any support combo can work if you and your team adjust their play style accordingly. And after a few games as brig/zen, Lucio/zen etc you will learn about game a lot. If you make them work or course
I subbed, Nice video❤
This was really helpful, thank you.
I'm still confused as to how Zen is considered a Flex support when his healing does not require aim and is basically automated and he also pairs poorly with most main supports?
Not historically. We've had plenty of Brig Zen and Mercy Zen metas.
Zen is a flex support because he requires a lot of mechanical skill. Yes heals and discord is automated, but good zens need good aim with their left and right click and just generally act as a third dps. Also, in the past, when the game had way less supports, most comps would have a lucio, so most teams would have a dedicated lucio player which is the main support, while the flex supports switches between ana and zen. Hell before role lock, many metas with zen had lucio too, like dive and goats. Even in double flex bap zen metas, the bap would usually be picked by the main support player if they didn't have 2 flex supports. Honestly, the distinction of main and flex support isn't relevant in ranked games and it more describes a specific player's skillset rather than a role to fill, and you should probably use the classification of main and off healers to decide your team comp.
I find it really weird that Zen is considered a Flex Support - I know people like to run Brig-Zen sometimes but otherwise he's generally put with someone who can heal more. I'd expect Lifeweaver to count more as a Main Support too - the heals and even the damage aren't much but he helps move the team, and farms for a protective ultimate, making him more akin to Lucio than anyone else.
Best condiment is spicy mayonaise.
spicy mayo is bomb w/ sushi
That’s because Krow was completely wrong about the support section.
I see you didnt listen to the lesson which is Flex means the hero leans on their Utility for value whereas Main means the hero leans on Primary/Secondary for value.
Its not about healing just like how Main/Flex DPS isnt about Damage. Otherwise heroes like Junkrat and Echo who can output hundreds of damage per second would be Main.
Zen is Flex because he has to use his utility to gleam value. Just like Lifeweaver who is less suited to just sit back and left click and more suited to Petal or Grip his teammates and press enemies for space.
@@youtuberobbedmeofmyname that's not how krow split the roles though
@@Potato_the_thirdwhat's the correct way than? Genuinely curious since support role has been the most confusing for me
This is explained very well and thoroughly. Easy and simple to understand!
You should make another video detailing in what situations I should prioritize the flex’s over the mains as a general guideline
I know this doesn't technically fit into role theory, but another way to look at support is main heals and off heals, similar to old main and off tanks. Main heals are Moira, Ana, and bap. Off heals are zen, Lucio and brig. Mercy and lifeweaver exist in a sort of in between where they can main heal, but that's not really why they're played and tends to be avoided.
Mercy is a main support. U aint seeing mercy walking around with her pistol.
So that means also main heals.
no way he said mayo was the best
It's true :)
@@KROW_OW specially on hot dogs 🤌
Sour cream or zaziki is best for sure
It is
Mayo is one of the best except you re using american brand mayo, which is hella disgusting
overall this is alright, to start out and learn the bases of overwatch. the one thing i see differ when you start to get more experienced is some dps in particular become more exceptions thats dependent on ether map with someone like torb, or main annoyance on the enemy team like how genji having advantage over a tone of deflectable spam like bastion. ive personally use genji as a seprate playstyle like you mentioned as a sudo dodge off tank in some cases because the situation called for it, stupid rare to have it happen though.
Amazing video! I only have one recomendation and that is that a less clutered thumbnail would make it much more attractive to watch this very high quality video, but that's just a little detail, keep it up!
When you were talking about doubling down on main supports I noticed you didn't mention Lucio/Mercy being an exception to the rule. But wasn't Lucio/Mercy a very popular combo for a period of time during (I can't remember which) S2 or S3?
Mercy-lucio might just be the worst support combo
@@benrichardson3031 I wasn't for very long, I think it was just after Mercy got the ridiculous healing buffs.
@Wolfgirl Expert But she isn't played because of her healing. Yeah she can do it but mainly focuses on dmg boost pocketing and occasional rezzes. Lucio on the other hand is played because of his speed boost. So if you're running a mercy lucio comp, and both of them are playing properly, ie more uptime on the blue beam and speed boost, then that results in little to no healing for the rest of the team.
@@benrichardson3031 I am not talking about current mercy, I am talking about broken as shit double healing on below half health teammates mercy. I swear to god I remember some T500 streamers talking about Lucio/Mercy comps.
54,252 combination. Pro league exists. 💀
I love that wrecking Ball is everywhere on the screen
What we ack is a support that isn't based on dealing high damage (flex) nor moving a lot, we just need a very difficult to kill support for once, thatcan stay into the frontline resist and do the healing with high survivability, and I have the perfect idea for that
When bap is played in double flex comps he's played more like a main support rather than flex support.
he's still a flex support, its just double a double fs comp, but usually in a team setting, the main support player would typically play the bap, since the zen would be left for the fs player to make more play making plays
The best comp is whatever you’re good at, the next best is based off these groupings krow lays out
10000%
could you make a video on tempo because its one of those things which is rarely talked about
Huge video, sending this to every metal rank player I know. (you might want to lower the volume on the SFX by the way I got jumpscared by the riffshot)
GM3 support here and I do think the term main healer and off healer built a certain bias in the community. In general if I asked my team for a main healer and they go Lucio or brig I’m getting tight lol. In my eyes I got
ZEN,Lucio,Brig, and Life-weaver as true off supports that strictly provide utility.
While Mercy,Bap,Ana, Kiriko and Moira can are main supports that can keep the entire team up especially the tank. Not to say the main supports can’t provide utility it’s just if they WANTED to heal the whole team they can where the off supports only can in their ultimate or under very specific conditions.
@@machinegirl03 A mercy that doesn’t die can easily have the most heals in the game. Would you want to instead of blue beaming maybe not. But it gets done all the time especially compared to MY “off support” list.
So why isn't Zen categorised as a main support then ? His healing is more automated than mercy's, in fact his abilities are very similar to mercy's and he pairs better with flex supports.
Zen was just played by flex supports in the very beginning of overwatch and there’s no point in changing it. He also set the idea that Flex supports are mechanically intensive.
I guess this is a great baseline but there are a lot more exceptions to be honest. I mean we see a lot more double flex supp in the league to a point where I think we need to redefine this. We see bap Ana, Moira Kiri , Bap Lucio, and a couple more. And we’re seeing a fuck ton of sombra with whatever dps at the moment
Role Theory does not apply in bronze. No theory applies in bronze. It's a special level where 10 children run around shooting randomly and missing everything.
I enjoyed this video a lot, however I would argue the the difference between main and flex support isn't how they heal, but how the supports interact with each other.
The job of the Main support is to keep the flex support alive and keep themselves alive without help, such as mercy pocket making a winston/DVA unable to kill the flex support by themselves, Lucio being able to boop enemies away from the flex support or brig being able to whip shot and give armour packs for instant healing. I would also put Kiriko in the Main support category because she is able to use suzu to give let a flex support live with it's boop and invulnerable. All of these Main supports can peel for their partner and keep themselves alive without assistance.
On the other hand, Flex support are supports which cannot peel for themeselves, or cannot peel for others.
If a zen is getting dove, an ana won't be able to heal him through the dive because her shots can be bubbled off or eaten with a DM or grasp. Or if an ana is getting dove a moira can't help her, if the moria fades to heal the ana she is vulnerable and if she throws her orbs they can be eaten or not get to the other support in time. The only exception to this would be baptiste, because depending on the comp he can be either a Flex or main support (Zen Bap(This backline is weaker to dive) vs Lucio Bap(This backline is weaker to Poke/Pick).
And thus ends my rant.
I hope someone finds this and appreciates it :)
While I understand where you are coming from what KROW talked about isn’t his own opinion on what characters are what but rather an established idea through out the Overwatch League. The best way to differentiate main and flex support although is neither what you or KROW said. The flex supports are high mechanically intensive characters, those where the brunt of their value comes from mechanical skill (hitting shots, timing cool downs, etc) where as characters like brig, lucio, mercy are low mechanically intensive. This change in mechanics necessary is what ENABLES the peel you are talking about, they can focus more on the general fight then making sure the teammates are full hp all the time. It’s the main supports job to peel for their flex support yes, but Kirikos job is to keep the team alive and hit headshots and time suzus well, she CAN peel for an Ana. Which is why they are played together so frequently, but that’s not the fundamental slot she fills based on her character design. It’s more forced by players looking to play double flex. It’s why I also argue Lifeweaver is not a flex support, his healing is auto aim, his damage is spray and pray, and his utility besides life grip isn’t very dependent on timing or management. But lucio and brig whip shots are also dependent on timing and well placed so I think Weaver being a main support makes total sense.
@karter You have swayed my opinion on kiriko. However, the argument I am trying to make is the established idea for pros. This is because back in the early days of overwatch, the most prevalent professional comp through season 1 of the overwatch league and tournaments such as apex or overwatch premier was dive. With the creation of the 2 support categories around this time, the deciding factor wasn't how mechanically difficult the character was but what the character provides the team.
THANK YOU KROW , ICHI AND MALK I LOVE YOU GUYS 😭
i am not so sure about that classification as roles suggest a job you do for the team and there is more than 5
main tanks create space to push into and hold openings created like reinhart. offtanks can help with this but are more about diving the enemy team to distract them so you can make picks, like diva and wrecking ball. And then there is tanks that seem to be more focused on creating threat than anything else like Zarya and roadhog with the latter having no type of shield.
DPS is even more split - turrets like symmetra and thorbjörn are great at defending important areas of the map, not so good at other things. Mei is kinda her own thing cause she can deal damage, close and far range, she can semi tank and hold spaces but her wall is so unique she can control the map -> isolate targets to pick off, block LOS for healers or snipers, help creating space, block ults, create highground, wall off retreats for the enemy, take the entire group across terrain, block health packs, turrets.... damage isnt even her job in the team, id categorize her more as tank or support than a dps hero.
and then we obviously have flankers and snipers who, while doing damage, do it in a different way for different strategic reasons to accomplish different goals for the team, same for assault heroes like sojourn and soldier.
and support - main healers, off healers but lucio and moira are actually better at dealing damage than healing.
You lost me at main and flex heros
Ana and Bap on Flex Support and Lucio on Main is questionable... I don't think the categorization of Main Support and Flex is correct at all. Heals being somewhat automated does not make a support main. The Healing output and utility is what makes them Main.
Main healers (who can output a lot of heals) are not "main supports" under the definition used in OWL and higher comp ranks. Main supports are less mechanically intensive, and more game sense oriented letting them be shot/play callers without interfering with their focus. Brig, Mercy, and Lucio don't require a lot of mechanical knowledge, but require good positioning, call outs, etc. whereas a Bap or Ana do require good mechanics in addition to some game sense. No point in having sleep dart or biotic nade if you can't hit enemies with them, or Bap's outrageous dps if you can't hit shots with him while mixing in heals.
Main support =/= Main healer. The role of Main support is about mastery of specific, usually non-transferable mechanics and having a greater macro understanding of the game and tempo/turns rather than raw mechanical skill. Ergo, Main support players play Lucio, Mercy, Brig, and probably Lifeweaver.
I know lots of players conflate the two types of categorizations of supports in this game, so don't worry, it's understandable. Just know that Main/Flex support are esports terms to describe hero pools of players, and Main/Off healer are descriptors of what each hero typically does in game.
@@TU7OV it’s literally the opposite LOL
@@APineappleR how do brig and more specifically lucio not require mechanical knowledge? and how do bap and ana require more mechanical knowledge? its entirely the opposite
@@natesdum you don't need to aim or manage CDs as much? Like, that's the biggest most glaring obvious one. A player with bad aim can't effectively play Bap or Ana, but they can definitely play Brig, Mercy, Lucio. And for players who *do* have good mechanics, there's less going on for main supports. A high level Brig will sit on high ground babysitting her Bap/Ana/Zen, a high Lucio will be taxiing players to offangles/speeding their tank in, and a high level Mercy will be flying around in the air with a good view of whatever's going on holding left or right click. And I'm not saying they're "easier", I main Brig she's my favorite character in the game, but her kit is less mentally intensive than Bap or Ana's.
on some maps where hitscan is suboptimal, like ilios well, i've seen owl players play echo like a main dps. her damage output is insane with short sight lines
I would love to know where you got the compostions from! Great and helpful Vid btw!
Great video and I learned a lot about the dps section especially, but I believe you could include a separation of tanks and main and flex “healers” instead of just main and flex “supports”. I feel dividing tanks into more categories would help people understand team comps. Like how, you wouldn’t run ball tracer widowmaker with like Ana and lucio
MAYO???? Good vid btw gm 2 ana and have been watching your vids as a part of climbing just to understand teamfights and my place in them
I'm currently Gm1 on all roles and usually just choose my comps around what 'feels right' in my head, I'm coaching a gold friend right now and i've been having some trouble guiding him on what heroes to play (and WHY he needs to play them)
I can easily tell him widow/sojourn/bastion is a zarya counter because that's pretty self explanatory but he gets confused when i tell him it's not a good idea to run ashe when your team has a soldier. This video helped me to help him and i thank you for that.
Well its more than just "feeling" then.
Hero choice isnt always about Counters.
My friends who are trying to climb dont understand this and they always look for counters. So when the enemy picks Reaper and Bastion for example, my team starts looking to the hero menu to try to out-select their hero.
Obviously this is not how it works.
Heroes dont have hard counters and even if someone thinks they do (popular scenario is Monkey vs Reaper), there is always room to outplay them.
Very popular situation is Zarya or Orissa being ignored by the entire enemy team, then the enemy steamrolling and saving the tank for last.
In this situation (hope I'm not being repetitive), Zarya could be facing someone like Junkerqueen which would be a very tough engagement for JQ - and the Zarya could still lose because JQ decides to ignore Zarya.
This is exactly why you need to focus on your own game, your own competence in the team setup, your positioning, your aggro, your mechanics, and don't worry about what the enemy is playing until you fail everything else.
@@youtuberobbedmeofmyname ye especially in metal ranks it's so much more important to pick around your own team than the enemy team. You can run no hitscan into a pharah if your comp is designed aorund deleting the rest of her team efficiently
Tank: take damage for the team
Offensive dps: annoy tf out of the enemy team and redirect the line of fire towards you to take some heat off tank
Defensive dps: make enemies fear you and don't wanna get near
Main heal support: provide the majority of healing for the whole team
Secondary heal support: protect backline and sometimes heal the team and/or deal damage
I feel like for a generic team this is amazing to know and pick a hero around it, but it's even better for a play style in particular, like for a poke comp Cassidy and Ashe for example is good and knowing that both are main DPS makes it even more important bc the player will switch a little bit like a more agressive soldier or a Ashe that goes for off angles more or something like that
Your breakdown of dps types makes a lot of sense to me. Main dpses are the ones with consistent and reliable damage, and it's pretty clear why having one such hero in your team is a good idea. Flex dpses are a bit more scattered since they seem mostly defined by what they _aren't,_ but it stands to reason that if you don't provide consistency you probably provide some sort of explosivity, and I can understand why you would want someone who can provide a different kind of pressure than simply unloading a certain amount of dps into the opposing tanks shield in order to actually get anywhere, and flex dpses are the ones to do that. This categorization should make it much easier to put together functioning teams without needing to be an expert on all the ins and outs of all heroes.
The support breakdown, however, left me more confused than enlightened. The _only_ distinguishing factor between main and flex support you mentioned was reliance on aim for healing, but who needs aim to heal other than Ana? Zen can't miss with his healing orb even if he tried and yet he's in flex? It's not on a cooldown either so it's not a matter of consistency. I've tried to guess what other factors play a role, his reliance on aim for non-healing reasons, his low general healing output, or his lack of aoe, but I can't simultaneously explain Moira in flex and Lucio in main with any of these. Also, why are the ones that you _don't_ need called "main" supports?
So basically flex dps are all of the heroes I hate playing. Got it.
There was always 4-5 roles in the game.. since OW1 lol, offtanks/offdps such as mei/reaper/doomfist when he actually used to be a dps, sombra/torb/symmetra and probably a couple more that arent coming to mind rn but they were made in that category because they were made for stalling and self sustainability or supporting the team through other means such as sombras infinite health pack usage for unlimited ults or just keeping the team alive in general. Ig its still important to bring up a known concept to newer players though so well done ig
Ik its meant to be a short video but it's a lot more complicated especially for supports. Most of them can be put in a category of two. Good category with main dps tho, almost always need one of those on the team as they are quite good for wearing down shields consistently.
As a genji main, now I understand why it sometimes feels impossible to push in into enemy teams now, now I will swap to cass whenever my second dps is on flex dps
Both moira and ana have been and sometimes are still played by main supports. It's not common to see but it still happens. I'd still say those are exceptions because they are mainly flexible to who can play them.
Good take on mayo. Very underrated.
great vid and thank you!
one small criticism, the sound queues when the tiles come up are distracting to me
thanks again!
never heard a better hot take that is cold asf mayo hard asf keep up the great opinions
I like to think that some characther are more tamk buster oriented in a spectrum so if an enemy tank in my plat games i rolling my dps i usually switch to ana,zen to help them but some suppory are less tank burst instead of damage/heal prevention like lucio and brig with boop to prevent their plays.
The game does not revolve around Tanks.
This is Silver mentality.
If I’m being honest I wish I could see a chart with each character’s category traits since players like mei can technically count as a tank with her ice walls but is dps and ana is also a sniper and can knock out opponents but is support
Mei is maybe a pseudo-tank, but her wall imo should be used offensively to force unfair tank 1v1s by walling off the tank or some other problem opponent and iso'ing them.
Pharah relies mainly off her guns damge and her abillities support that so why is she in flex. Is it just because of her projectile speed? if so can you help im a little confused
I think its bc sometimes you can't count with dealing consistent damage to specific targets. Some maps are just too weird for her and some angles won't favor
I've been lately noticing more that when my I'm on dps and we're losing that it's better to change to a hero that's better for flanking instead of trying to forcibly outdamage the enemy team, or if I'm a healer then it's rather not good to have for example Wiveleafer + Lucio. Essentially I've learned this topic by myself and now not long after that I see this video, feels nice to learn something valuable myself for once ngl.