Cessna 414A - NY to NC Part 1 | Pitch for the Blue Line?
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- čas přidán 21. 03. 2019
- Join me for a VFR departure from Orange County Airport on the first leg of our trip to Florida! We'll discuss briefly why pitching for the blue line after takeoff may not be the best move, a topic commonly raised by you guys in comments and questions! Enjoy!
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Aircraft:
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1982 Cessna 414AW
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Modifications:
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RAM Series IV Conversion - 325hp
RAM Winglets
RAM Zero Fuel Weight Increase Kit
Micro Vortex Generators
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Cockpit Accessories:
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Bose A20 Aviation Headset
iPad app - Foreflight Pro
iPad Case - PIVOT
iPad Mount - PIVOT
GoPro Hero 4 x2
Audio Recorder - iPhone XS with patch cord
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Music:
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Track: Alex Skrindo & Miza - Thinkin' [NCS Release]
Music provided by NoCopyrightSounds.
Watch: • Alex Skrindo & Miza - ...
Free Download / Stream: ncs.io/ThinkinYO
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Excellent, professional pre departure briefing!
Actually subscribed after a heads-up from Blancolirio
Thanks so much! I'd love to collab with you on a video and talk about many of the misunderstandings and misconceptions associated with flying piston twins. I think both of our audiences would benefit greatly from it.
@@rmshivo Thanks Roy. Glad to have you here. I promise, new stuff is coming at some point.
@S4 Aviator @Blanocolirio as a follower of both of you I'd love to see a collaboration
Most engine failure accidents with twins are due to lack of proper control of airspeed with the resulting lack of control of yaw leading to a spiral dive, stall or spin. Most pilots - no matter how experienced - respond to the startle factor of a low down engine failure by pulling back on the yoke which sure does not help. I fly a C421C with vortex generators. I find that if I set the elevator trim to 3/4 nose down in the takeoff trim range for takeoff, on losing an engine, if I ease the back pressure on the yoke, the aircraft pitch will drop towards the horizon and I will be able to maintain the speed that I have attained at that point in flight; I rotate at 100KIAS, and therefore Blue Line 112KIAS is achieved very quickly after rotation.. On the 421C, the VXSE is 105KIAS and the VYSE (and VY) is 112KIAS. Assuming the gear is up, given the very large rudder (and the rudder vortex generators) the aircraft is quite controllable at 105KIAS with one engine failed and prop windmilling but, of course, the aircraft will be descending at about 100' a minute. As soon as the prop is feathered, at VYSE 112 KIAS the aircraft will climb at about 330' per minute at gross weight on a standard day. As soon as I am above 800' AGL and above any obstacles, I accelerate to 120KIAS to improve cooling on the good engine (and allow the autopilot to be engaged). Therefore, for me, I find that the blue line, as an initial target speed after takeoff works as a good operating practice. I should add that, given that drag increases in proportion to the square of the increase in velocity and power increases in proportion to the cube of the increase in velocity, a 10% increase in speed over VYSE will lead to a 32% decrease in climb performance which may often be critical to flight safety - especially in IMC.
Great info. I’m a very (EXTREMELY) low multi time pilot and will take possession of a Cessna 441 in about two weeks (currently in escrow). I’ll be doing sim and in-plane training at Simcom in Orlando. Your comment and explanation are very helpful, thanks.
Just picked up this airplane for MSFS. Incredible machine and a treat in VR! Learning a lot from your videos, thanks.
that's what brought me here too! :D
god me too
Guess who was the technical advisor and after which plane the MSFS is modeled after? One hint: He is not a BMW guy.
This takes me back for sure. Lots of fun memories flying the 414 with my dad
Good job talking "out loud" the take off briefing and engine fail procedure! I used to solo students out of MGJ. Brought back memories for me.
professional and wonderful. powerful aircraft
Great camera angle, thought I had an Astral projection for a second. enjoyed the clip, good job.
Cheers
Thanks for taking the time to film - appreciate inclusion of the run up. Although you must see from your analytics we’re all looking for the landing...!
It's already finished editing! Just need to export and upload. Keep your eyes open for it!
Yes we would love weekly videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The instructor in Martin Pauly’s Multiengine ground school video does a great job in explaining pitch for blue line.
So happy that you collaborate with Flysimware for the much awaited 414A! I hope will get soon the Part 2 of this flight.
Fly safe, happy landings!
This is my favourite msfs tutorial
Your 414 is one serial number away from my 414. Great planes
Jared LaBarbera Hey Jared. They sure are!
Great video!
Nice bird !!! It is completely another level
Excellent video.
Nice plane. Great vid.
I am sure I will enjoy this vid.
Cheers from France , AMERICA
AVOIDING TREES I hope you do!
Just found your channel and great content. I especially like that you have older panel (like most of us, lol)
Very nice!
Last time I flew a 414 was in '87 or '88. Amazed that I still remember blue line (112) in that airplane. RE, climb out speed, I totally agree with your reasoning and would only add that the object of the flight is to get down the road. Your higher airspeed accomplishes that very thing, i.e. the nose is going down the road vs. up in the air, so to speak. The idea that "I'm going to climb faster to get better gas mileage quicker" is a false economy for a couple of reasons: 1) A twin piston-powered airplane isn't going to realize much of a savings no matter how fast you climb nor how much you lean and 2) what you save in gas, you'll very easily burn up in burned up cylinders. I've had many customers, over the years, who've learned the economics of that little experience. Good video.
Beautiful plane and I love that you still have the analogue gauges. But...... ever considered upgrading that old GPS100?
As "Jimmy's World" would say, "can I get a Clear Prop !! lol
Best Regards from MMMX greate view of all Your activities in cockpit please share in 4K quality!!!
Hey we are in Winter Haven right now, are you in the area. We are heading home to Phoenix tomorrow, Carson finished his sea plane and tailwheel down here for spring break. Good to see you posting again! -Tim
Hey Tim! I'm down at our place in Naples, but I'll be heading back up to NY in the next few days on the airlines. Congrats to Carson! Excellent! We need to collaborate one of these days, or just grab lunch at the very least! I should be back out at TUS later this year for LR-JET recurrent.
Excellent video ! Have you noticed, your right engine has always been hotter than the left one ?
Joe - enjoyed the video. Perhaps an interesting add on and continuation of the blue-line scenario would be to actually walk through configuration steps of the 414 after engine failure... Would be interesting see from my perspective and provide a good demonstration of the complexity involved and speed with which things need to occur. Just a suggestion. Thanks for posting the video and taking the time to film..
Hey! Thanks! I can go through a basic walk through of the procedures, but we really don't do actual engine shutdowns in this airplane unless we absolutely need to. Its really hard on the engines.
S4 Aviator
Absolutely, wasn’t suggesting actual shutdown, just run through of config steps, Id, dead leg, feather, etc... all simulated... good stuff, thx again for taking the time.
Finally some one addressed this
Would love to connect as I am looking to purchase a 414A. Love your videos. Thanks.
This looks remarkably familiar… are you the tech pilot for flysimware’s upcoming 414? This looks identical to the one modeled👀
Some say he's still flying to finish Part 2. 🤣
I love the video. I can't seem to find Part 2 though
There is no part 2
Well that’s disappointing.
Gas hungry but a beauty!
How long does the trip take? Do you prefer the twin over a single?
Who else is here after this plane came to msfs?
here!
Thank You for the info. So when you had the Mixtures pulled back was that for airport alt or warm up for the engines?
Usually done during taxi to help prevent spark plug fouling at low power
Great video but where's part 2?
What speed do you fly this plane 414a in holding patterns or regular traffic patterns? Around 120ias?
Can you just reduce manifold pressure or do you need to lower gear or add flaps to maintain a slow speed in holds?
Part 1, but there appears to be no part 2 to this video (that I can find!).
Great video!
My Instructor always required to pitch for blue line but your explanation sounds pretty logical and practical!
But what if fly „under-powered“ planes like a Piper Apache or similar?
Do you really have the obstacle clearance and range for speed in an initial climb to pitch for more than blue line?
Thanks Tim! Absolutely. I earned my multi engine rating in a Twin Comanche, and it was never necessary to climb at blue line for obstacle clearance. Haven't flown an Apache, but that's probably the most underpowered piston twin I can think of, so things may be a bit different there.
I used to own a 150hp Piper Apache.. actually I kept it at MGJ for a couple of weeks before I got a spot at Wurtsboro. I recall that the fat wing on the Apache was a Clark Y airfoil (I believe it’s the same airfoil that’s on the Cub) and it would get airborne well below Vmc speed. You couldn’t hold it on the ground long enough, so I would let it get into ground effect, accelerate to blue line or a little above, then start climbing and retract the gear. I agree with Joe about cruise climbing with extra speed, as you could always turn the extra speed into climb if an engine quits..The rule I had was if the engine failed while the gear was down, I would rip the power on both engines to idle, and land straight ahead. Once the gear was retracted, I would attempt to identify and feather the dead engine and try to climb. I have practiced shutting one down with two people and full tanks, and it will climb at 50fpm or so at 4000 feet, so the old wives tale about the Apache not being able to hold altitude is bs..
Looking carefully at your fuel flow gauge, it looks like your full power (takeoff) fuel flow is only about 20.0-20.5 gph per side. How is that possible on a TSIO-520? Does the RAM conversion work some kind of magic? At full power, I'd think 20 gph would be dangerously near peak TIT in a stock 520.
Hey Smoky. The fuel flow values you’re seeing are in pounds, not gallons. So you’re seeing 205pph, or a little over 34gph. You’ll also notice the EGTs (There’s no TIT reference on these engines, it’s a meaningless value) are right where they should be at takeoff power.
I watch 1000's of youtubers and I am one myself, there are only 2 of you preaching about the blue line misconception. You and Dan Gryder. Air Wagner for example, one of my favorite personalities, pitches for blue line religiously and has 2 cruise level engine failures in the last 6 months in twins. Terrifies me that sooo many GA pilots misunderstand the blue line. We have the same problem with DMMS misconception.
Couldn't agree more. Pitching for blue line is useless on two engines. You want a healthy margin of airspeed above blue line. Problem is, many of these people are just totally stuck in their ways. The whole attitude of "I've been doing it this way for decades so it must be right" is dangerous and ridiculous.
Why are you leaning engines in the climb? Just wondering
Optimize fuel burn. Not required for optimum power (due to the turbos) but turbocharged engines can still be leaned to reduce fuel flow in the climb, while maintaining the same manifold pressure.
Bro! Where's the mustache? 🤣 Have a great trip! Where in NY are you based? I trained as a pilot at KISP
Disregard! Just heard Hudson Valley!
We're based up at MGJ!
Cool! Been a fan of your videos... I think that's were I fell for the 414! Keep the videos coming! And I you ever need a reliable, trustworthy safety pilot or SIC, I only approximately 80 miles away! 😁
@@davidktimothy Absolutely! Maybe if I have a trip down that way we can take her for a spin!
You come to me, I come to you! Hey, I'm good any which way!
Just love flying
Why was the mixture not full rich until takeoff?
Leaning the mixture a bit while the engines are idling at a very low power setting reduces plug fouling. Pretty common technique on engines like these.
That looks just like the SWA ipad rig.
Really important, you need to work on those volume levels. From rattling my speakers to I can't hear you
Why 10.5?
I bet some other pilot will say explain why climbing out at blue line with both engines is just fine. It'll take minutes to lose 30kts if one engine fails.
Hi Norbert. You're statement regarding airspeed loss after an engine failure just isn't true. Losing that much airspeed after an engine failure can take as little as 15-20 seconds. Think about how much drag comes into play. In addition to the windmilling propeller, which creates an enormous amount of drag, you also have a massive deflection of the rudder that is required to maintain directional control. The windmilling propeller alone creates so much drag that the airplane is physically incapable of climbing until the propeller is feathered. 30 knots of airspeed loss will happen much, much faster than several minutes.
@@s4aviator804 I agree with you and your reasoning. 30kts in minutes was and is an overstretch. Things happen fast in a hurry during an emergency of any kind. I am just guessing that those who advocate climbing out at blue line will gain altitude faster and have more ground under them just in case some was to happen.
Norbert Mudaheranwa I’ve heard that argument. The fatal flaw in that argument is that if you do lose the engine at blue line, the only thing that will prevent you from finding yourself in a VMC roll situation is to aggressively lower the nose to prevent airspeed loss, so you’re giving up that extra altitude gained anyways. Not the right way to fly the airplane. I’m really not a fan of these people who make up techniques based on a flawed understanding of how this stuff works. There’s a reason we train people to fly the way we do. In the jet world, nobody makes it up as they go along. We all get taught to fly the airplane the right way, and nobody tries to act like they’re smarter than the procedure.
S Q. N PRB. )))
Much more professional than... Jerry...
aviatortrevor Nothing against Jerry, but I consider myself a professional pilot, whereas Jerry has specifically stated on several occasions that he doesn’t consider himself as such. While I do happen to fly for a living, making me a professional by definition, I choose to hold myself to a professional standard in all of my flying. Whether it’s in my 414, or in the jet. As I’ve told every student I’ve ever worked with, you don’t have to be a professional pilot to fly like one.
Bashing other pilots by name in a public forum to either ingratiate oneself to others or incur approval of "peers" is not...professional. Glad to see you back, Joe.
SKIP MALONEY Hey Skip. I wasn’t trying to bash Jerry, just highlight a profound difference in how we approach our flying. I choose to fly in a professional manner whether I’m flying my airplane, or I’m flying someone else’s airplane. It’s not everybody’s thing.
@@skipmaloney178 If Jerry owned up to his mistakes and showed he was willing to learn from them, I wouldn't bash him. Instead, he does things like bust minimums in an unstable 1500fpm descent and a last second erratic and steep banking, and then he bitches and moans that people are telling him that's illegal and unsafe. Or he crosses over downtown San Francisco below legal minimum altitudes, and claims he didn't bust when it's clear he did. He has a "the rules don't apply to me" hazardous attitude and says he's right and everyone else is wrong. If you're going to say you're right, then be right. Don't tell people that what you're doing is safe or legal when it's not.
@@s4aviator804 Sorry, I was replying to the lead posting. You did exactly the right thing. Really enjoy your vids.
Perhaps you could skip the preflight procedures next video. We want to see you fly!
Why does everyone get the atis with engines running and not before? Waste of time and money.
Can’t you set up everything and then start up?
No, you really can’t. Getting the information, calling for clearance, and programming the navigators takes some time, and if you do it prior to engine start, you’re draining the batteries to do it. Given that you need the batteries to start the engines, it doesn’t make much sense to do it that way. If your time from startup to takeoff was 20 minutes, you’d burn less than one gallon of fuel. Another consideration is that the engine oil needs time to warm up before you ask the engines to make full power for takeoff. So they need to idle for a bit anyways. So really, it wastes no time or money.
@@s4aviator804 thanks S4 Aviator, makes sense now. Thought with 2 engines running it would cost more but thanks for the insight!
Just a suggestion; Don't pitch for the blue line. Pitch for an airspeed higher than the blue line. If you lose an engine you will most pay an airspeed penalty as you clean up the aircraft.
This should bring you BACK to the blue line. Otherwise you could end up below it.
Did you watch the video? What you’re saying was my entire point.
@@s4aviator804 Of course I watched the video. I also read the title of the video.
The video was excellent. As a specialist in flight safety I viewed it in all aspects. The only negative I found was the omission of a question mark instead of a period in the title line.
My post was aimed directly at that omission.
A nitpick perhaps, but why spoil a very well put together instructive video by including in the title line a direct conflict with the otherwise instructive content in the video body.
I'm not trying to pick you apart here. Were I using your video in a safety lecture I'm merely saying I would have changed the title line to read as a question as opposed to what it is........a statement that plainly says to "Pitch To The Blue Line".
I hope this serves to better clarify my purpose and intent.
My best to you,
Dudley Henriques
@@dahenriques Thanks for the feedback Dudley. Although I’m not entirely sure what you mean. The title of the video does, and has since the day it was uploaded years ago, have a question mark at the end.
Interesting! It showed a period On my Mac. In that case please allow me to congratulate you on an excellent video.
That was.....boring lol (good thing). I’m used to watching 414 pilots on CZcams fly out of clouds upside down. All you Jerry W lovers need a healthy dose of whoever this is to see what proper procedures and professional flying looks like. Unless you’re NASCAR fans and are just watching him for the inevitable crash, in which case keep watching Air Wagner. He won’t disappoint.
Jerry W does an excellent job of explaining things to non pilots and thus kindling the interest in flying.
@@franktrice1497 He does an awful job, but you’d have to be a pilot to know that.
Avoid the use of the phrase "standard left seat take off"....it has no real meaning....and is not professional.
laurentide It has tons of meaning when the takeoff SOP’s change depending on the seat you’re sitting in, and even more so when your SOP’s outline both a “standard” and “nonstandard” procedure for each seat. While I appreciate your input, I’d bear in mind that each company’s SOPs shape the departure briefing before telling someone that what they did is unprofessional. Now in the interest of full disclosure, the “standard left seat takeoff” part of the briefing was a little bit of negative transfer from flying the Lear. I don’t normally begin a takeoff briefing in the 414 that way. But in terms of its applicability on the turbojet air carrier certificate where I’m a Captain, it has quite a bit of meaning, and I’d say following company SOP’s is a professional way to conduct yourself. According to the guys at FlightSafety, there’s a pretty good number of operators out there with SOPs structured this way.
@@s4aviator804 My apologies....my comment was way to brief for a complicated subject. That said, those pilots that post video of themselves on CZcams as a sort of illustration of what to do or how things are done are putting themselves out there as a sort of pseudo instructor....and there's a lot of misinformation out there, including by some instructors at "Flight Safety". My comment was not said with malice, but with frustration at a practice that major carriers spend time and money to undo. Yes, obviously following company SOP is critical to safety. But a "left seat" never took off any differently than a "right seat" in the same airplane, and if you're briefing the takeoff, it's obvious which seat you're sitting in. I spent my 35 year career as a captain responsible for training at two large passenger carrying airlines, flying a variety of large jets. I was a check airmen and designated examiner (Aircrew Program Designee) as well. The purpose of the before takeoff briefing is for the crew to rehearse a mental plan, including normal procedures, departure procedure, emergencies, and threats that require particular attention, specific to each crew members duty, so that both crew members are prepared to accomplish their actions in a coordinated fashion. A rejected takeoff for example, should be briefed from the perspective of each seat, if they have different duties, so that both are prepared to act if necessary. Don't tell the FO what to do....ask him or her to brief their duties so that you'll know that they know what they're supposed to do. The phrase "standard calls" can be used to require standard calls, and "non standard" calls may be required (for delayed VR for example in windshear. You obviously are a professional...and the farther you advance in your career the more you'll see that some of the things you were taught earlier don't hold up under scrutiny. Best wishes for a long, safe, successful career.
YOU SHOWED 19 MINUTES ON THE GROUND .. WE DID NOT NEED THAT...
Claude Woodall Just goes to show that no matter what you publish, some people always find a reason to complain. When you take the time to record, edit, and upload videos in your own airplane, feel free to exclude as much time on the ground as you’d like.