Shotgun Push Pull Technique
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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Attitude. Skills. Plan.
(music in the outro courtesy of Bensound at www.bensound.com)
The bow example really broke it down for me thanks
I second this. I really appreciated that imagery
Agreed, the mechanic makes perfect sense. i want to try it or something like it with an ar10 and experiment a bit bc as a not so big guy, or my smaller lady friend, the 308 leaves some wicked brusing after a full 20rd or 2
The push-pull method, as you call it, was first described by Robert Churchill in his book Gameshooting from 1955.
I've just been introduced to this technique and it has changed how I use a shotgun. Brilliant.
I'm a smaller man and I've always avoided shotguns because of the massive recoil. I think I'm going to pick up a $200 Moss500 from the pawn shop, just to practice this. This is GREAT advice that I've never heard anywhere else! As always, thank you John for all you do to help us think through these things BEFORE we have to put them into action!
Just remember that it didn't originate with me. :)
Just a suggestion, try 20 gauge. I am also a pretty small dude and I LOVE shotgunning. 12 gauge is fine and can be made even easier with this technique. I switched to 20 gauge for my home defense shotgun though. I can get as much lead on target as with a 12 gauge but NOTICEABLY quicker with my 20 gauge. I shoot 1oz loads, which is a standard 12 gauge payload as well. If you can get really proficient with the 20 gauge, get yourself a 12 gauge and go from there. I like the fact my wife and daughter also enjoy shooting the 20 gauge, so if I'm not home and something goes down... I know my girls will put some buckshot into the fight. My wife shot a 12 gauge once and decided its not for her. My daughter is only 10, but she can shoot that 20 guage like a little pro. Practice and proper technique is the main thing though. Get a shotgun, learn the techniques and practice them! You will get used to the recoil. Much less shocking with a 20 guage than 12 gauge for a recoil sensitive or smaller stature shooter.
@bonezcustoms on Instagram
I'm only 5'4" and never had an issue with a 12 gauge in any load. Neither does my wife, or 15 yo daughter. But we all have proper technique and have been shooting since we were all young. You can shoot a 12 guage my friend.
@@jona5517 Facts I think these guys just need to do more pushups ☠️
@@theanxiousnot exactly tiny but I’m 180 5’9 and I love my 20 gauge Mossberg Maverick 88 Cruiser. You can push pull from the hip as well but not as effective as from the shoulder. But 20 gauge absolutely rocks for us smaller dudes.
Cat ears detected, opinion invalidated. 😂
What's The Deal With The Cat Ears?!
czcams.com/video/PyknnWDEZZo/video.html
Had to pay close attention, but I did pick up on something. It looks like the proper technique had ever slightly less muzzle rise, but what it appears to have significant difference is how quickly it returns to an on target position.
As you stated John, the recoil for your shotgun was soft for even the improper technique. That did make it difficult to visually see the difference.
Agree. You may not eliminate the recoil per si', but your recovery back to ready position is right there and quicker. Great technique.
Thank you so much for the wisdom and knowledge. I need practice
We all do!!
Thanks for explaining the technique in greater detail. Very helpful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@ASPextra Nobody else has ever mentioned the push-pull technique. I train shotgun whenever my carbine or pistol is down. Juggling 3 weapons systems is time consuming. It's hard to spread the love and train equally in all 3.
Thanks for what you do, John! Keep doing you and I’ll keep watching.
I might be to old.. to learn new tricks.
I just like shotguns.
Another good video.
Nice. I've been waiting for a video to explain push-pull. Thinking about purchasing my first ever home-defense gun. Thanks John.
👍👍👍 Love the archery analogy...
I love shotguns. Always hated how they beat me though. I thought it was just one of those things. Then i watched your video and lemme tell you. I had that Winchester singing beautiful songs, thank you.
Push pull is good. Don't forget to pull down on your elbows. The torque counter clockwise with your front hand and clockwise with your back hand brings your deltoids into play. Pitch control is improved.
Good stuff. Much appreciated Sir. 👍.
Glad to help
Best channel on CZcams, been here 3 or 4 years and have learned so much.
Nice. Very helpful. Thanks, John.
Thanks so much for this video. You explain push-pull so clearly that I could easily implement the technique on my first day of shooting a shotgun. Neither of the good ol' boys who were teaching me had ever heard of it.
Thank you.
You're welcome!
I telling the truth,,, I didn't know... Thanks Jon...
I wish I knew this sooner. Was in Utah last month, shot a shotgun (a 870 tactical) for the first time and all the range had was slugs, man i was pulling the slide under recoil every shot...
With autoloaders I do prefer this technique, with pump actions specifically my favorite Winchester 1300, I prefer to keep all pressure reward. This reason why is that it helps me operate that 1300 like it’s an autoloader. Yes the recoil impulse is much more that way but it works for me. Also as someone that primarily shoots the heaviest 3 inch magnum 12 gauge loads and also a 458 win mag, that extra muzzle rise with just pulling doesn’t bother me and I work around it.
And no I’m not a very big guy either.
Excellent discussion and demo!
great instructions Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
i learned something / thanks
I am not small, and 12ga is uncomfortable to me (especially tall brass buckshot), which takes some of the fun out of practice
I'll try this out tomorrow. Thank you
@ Active Self Protection Extra Great video ... and your physical analogies helped convey the information extremely well ... Can you please post yourself doing this with 00 #BUCKSHOT ... I did tactical shotgun training with a maverick 88 and had no recoil issues with bird shot .... Nominating you because you had the fabulous opportunity to spend time with Matt Haught ... I figure 00 buckshot will be the moment of truth [i.e. ability to maintain cheek position for follow up shot, muzzle rise, etc] .. thanks for posting ...
Great analogy, comparing a bow & arrow...
Thank you kindly!
I put the Kick Off Recoil system in my 1301 Tactical stock and it is a game changer for reduced recoil. I have one in my A400 Trap and it really mitigates the recoil so that shooting hundreds of clays did not have any affect on me, this coming from someone who has a plate and seven screws in his right shoulder collar bone. The Tac recoil may be light compared to some other guns such as an inertia shotguns, but because it is so light weight, it cannot absorb a recoil as well as a heavier gun. The Kick off system has pistons that act as shock absorbers when the gun recoils.
I’ve actually thought about getting that kickoff system for my 1301 but unsure which stock will fit it though
This little shotgun series makes me want an LTT 1301 so bad. 😬
Me as a smaller dude, who loves running my M3000 and Full-size 1911🤣😂
Thank you. I was wondering about how to better retain a stable body position. I will definitely practice this.
I'm going to have to try this next time I get to the range
I've been pulling in, and it leaves me somewhat sore
also works better with the reset action on a pump gun
Yeah it is really an extension of running the pump gun well.
Was hoping to see a review of Belly band holsters on this channel. I just bought one and its super comfortable and versatile, and the particular one i got seems to have a safer holster as the material doesn't allow for trigger pressure and is covered.
Maybe at some point.
Great tip! Have a lot of the rifle instructor's you've been with in-person taught this as well? Because online I don't think I've seen a single rifle instructor saying to push-pull. Most just say the original "pull the rifle into your body".
Mostly shotgunning. But the better rifle instructors know that the 5.56 that most people shoot in a carbine is a light recoiling round.
@@ASPextra Instructors like Lucas Botkin say to "pull the rifle back on target", but it seems to be a "reactive" direction rather than a "proactive" direction like you described. I would think it'd have to be a proactive action like you're describing especially if going fast? Do you think he's describing a different technique or the same concept?
@@musicman1eanda probably different, one is constantly pulling and pushing, the other is pulling right after shooting
Like I said, the better carbine instructors mostly do it a certain way.
I made a loop of the two techniques, imgur.com/a/EN1blBm.
That’s a feaaaature friends. Love it haha
just found you! thanks for the advice. got my first gun ever. last month. H & R protector.
Welcome!
I really just watch these for the old music outro...........
Thank you for the video. An observation: it might be a bit more clear if you filmed this from the other side, as, since you’re a lefty, your body is blocking much of the gun and it’s not as clear to see exactly the push-pull technique. Also, you’ve got an all black shotgun, a black shirt, and you’re filming in a dimly- lite range.
Watch the muzzle, that's what's important.
As always, great instruction delivered concisely which is why this is where I contribute via Patreon. Push/pull as the proper technique has been around for a long time. I can remember my father teaching me this 50 years ago. At a guess, he picked this up in the military in the 50's. At a further guess, this technique has been around as long as the pump shotgun, but has to also be applicable to any larger caliber rifle. So, likely more than 150 years.
Came here because saw someone else talk about it and couldn’t work out what he was doing “ drawing a bow” cleared it up
I find that a lot of people resonate with that particular description. But remember that it's like a really high tension long bow.
I like how the shotgun ergonomically glides around his beer belly 2:13
Tactical shelf ;)
For a second I thought that was a pile of slugs behind the target
Watching your videos has become a habit.cool!
Since you're a left handed shooter, it could've have been more intuitive if your camera guy stood at the opposite side where we can see your shoulder and how the butt sits.
Super insightful. Thanks, John ! P.S.: wht do u thnk of "front grips", John ?
A hand stop can be useful but not strictly necessary.
I shoot rifles fine snugged into the shoulder but 1oz slugs always threw me around. I’ll try this next time I’m running shotty at the range.
My 1st time to hear of this method...I like the logic...anxious to get on the range and try it. I'd like to know more about this model of shotgun. Can somebody tell me the make and model? I had a hard time catching it in the audio on my device.
Beretta 1301 Elite LTT
czcams.com/video/2vel8pdz_io/video.html
Pump action too?
Yep!
I was fought to put rear pressure on a pump to ride the recoil for a fast reload cycle. And this has made my follow up shots notibly faster. Seems to me that pushing forward will significantly slow the pump action. I will try this next time at the range.
@@johnkbear3901 my pump gets stuck if i hold a pull, so the push helps prevent that, then i pump off the recoil
You may be pulling to hard. Slight rear pressure. And it doesn't work on some guns when dry fire.
@@johnkbear3901 very possible. I only bring the shot gun out a couple times a year
Force does not “turn”…it’s not an electrical current. Every force has an opposing force that is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. We experience muzzle climb because the recoil exerts torque on our body. Our body acts as a moment-arm in relation to the ground. Great video though.
That seems pedantic.
@@ASPextra well sure it does. However, describing things accurately definitely matters.
I was scared to try the short stick technique with my Mossberg 500
Question from the Canadian North to you guys... for home defense, with a pump shotgun (Mossberg retrograde) is keeping it loaded (safety on, no shell pumped in) an issue in the long term? By long term, I mean keeping the ammo loaded to the maximum capacity for a year or two. Two reasons make me ask the question: 1. Does this damage or weaken the magazine spring? 2. I heard it could ''squash'' the shells over time, perhaps producing jam feeds or misfires... Any input welcome. And side question: are Aguila mini shells perhaps more resistant to the ''squash'' effect, due to their smaller length? 9-10 of these little bad boys fit in the magazine (and yes, it does have the mini-shell adapter). WONDERFUL show, by the way.
The magazine springs in shotguns are older tech, usually made of a material that WILL take a set after a year or so. I would recommend keeping it stored one shell short, and keeping that extra shell next to the gun to add when you pick it up. I would also recommend changing the magazine spring annually.
Rob Haught style.
Yep.
Took his dad's class 18 years ago. He taught several FEDs and LE officers.
You recommend this for rifles too?
Yes for sure. It’s not really needed on 5.56 but ain’t wrong.
I’ve been shooting a pump gun similarly for 40+ years. Only difference is I push with my trigger hand, (right hand) on the heel of the stock and pull back with my pump hand. I can shoot a pump gun faster than most people can shoot a semi-automatic using this method. This is just a technique I stumbled upon a long time ago that seems to work well for me.
Hey Kevin, it is interesting. How do you do it? If I try this technique and pull back with my pump hand i just starting recking....Or it does not work with pump gun? Thank you in advance...
Erik Boing
the pump is locked in battery until you pull the trigger. When you already have tension on the fore grip, pump in this case, you don’t even have to think about racking it, as soon as you pull the trigger the pump process is in action. Try it next time you got a pump gun handy. Hope this helps.
The only thing is, that will run the action faster but it will NOT control recoil better.
@@kevinhogan4453 Kevin, thank you. I have had not much experience with shot guns. I don't think your method has less recoil control (as John said) than the method shown from John and used at
90% of peoples. Your method is may be better. We used this method in the Soviet Army with AK. Especially when shooting with stock on a bent elbow from around a corner. Flexor muscles and biceps work muuuuuch (John would say so😊) stronger than extensor muscles (this is the law of anatomy. John hast to do some homework again). If I pull back with my front hand, it gets tired much less and the pull is much stronger than If the back hand pushes forward, and we control the AK much better. If I pull back, then the overall control of the weapon is much greater. Try to push with barrel of AR against the wall in these two different ways.
By the way, it is not visible in the video that the barrel of the weapon by John moves less by pull back, than by “old” technique (which one of the guys dared to modestly note.) and it will never do.... The technique showed be John mitigate recoil but not much barrel flip. Considering the vectors for the application of forces by the techniques, when a forearm pulls back or pulls out the forces goes along the barrel. Recoil force is directed to the side. There is not much influences of the pull on the flip. Even more: in both technique effect on the resulting component of vectors for the application of forces will be less than by “old” technique. Sorry for the a bit physic. So, the smallest flip would be by old technique (not yours and not Johns)
John has a very good channel and he is a good person; he runs from one instructor to another and wants to share knowledge and make his channel more interesting. with the time he felt like a king:) and became so self-confident that he has begun to give advices to people who have been in this business for 40 years. He advised me to take some courses too. I am 63 year old, was in Soviet Army, 4 years ago moved to the USA (from Germany), took some courses here and I have been checking a loooot😊 of channel, to keep me updated. Take care!
Erik Boing
Thanks for the thorough explanation. It’s very interesting. I tried Johns method and didn’t notice much, if any difference, even filmed it. I’m much too old to try to change techniques now but your explanation makes sense. I’m 6’4” and 260 lbs recoil has never been a huge issue for me anyway. Just thought I’d share my technique.
Gun Community: carbines do everything better than a shotgun. Newton's Laws: 🙄
Is this technique relevant to a 223 rifle?
Think I have been doing it that way from the start. What’s the chance of that coming naturally to a self taught kid back in the 80s?don’t have my 1301 yet but do have light weight franchi (sp?)12 & a couple20s for quail .will shoot some soon & pay attention to what I’m doing & try fine tuning some. Thx jc
John adding to the push technique do you recommend low recoil rounds? I use Winchester OO buck low recoil for my self defense rounds.
Also are the flight control rounds that much better?
Flite Control is amazing, innovative stuff. Absolutely worth using and seeking out specifically. I made the switch after seeing John's patterning test with standard 00 and magnum 15 pellet 00 buck and seeing how shocking the difference actually is.
FC low recoil is my #1 choice.
@@ASPextra But does it cycle in the Beretta 1301? I've had issues with low recoil shells in my Mossberg 930.
How would this work with a pump shotgun?
Same way.
On a well used pump shotgun, it will help to reduce misfires, because your holding the bolt closed all of the way.
Yaas
rip it apart
Does this work for a pump action shotgun?
it does
Cool beans, I am gonna try this technique!
“Earf” 😝
Say you were shooting a 30-06 hunting rifle, offhand would you still do a push/pull?
It helps in big bore calibers like that, for sure.
Active Self Protection Extra thank you. I’m assuming you use the same technique on ARs as well? Or you just pull the whole gun in since it doesn’t recoil much at all.
This is about to go viral anyone else here from the travis mcmichael trail
How about with a pump
Works identically. Better, even!
Is bro standing down range of an active range? Rounds going off in the background lol
It's a private bay. The bay next door is active and public, but I am the only one on this bay.
First. Thanks for the great content
Why not push with the dominant hand and pull with the support hand? Also why doesn't this translate to pistols?
Because of your shoulder positions. The pistol only has 2 points of contact, and your shoulders are more square.
and that's bad when using a pump shotgun
So I am not sure if your physics explanation is simplified as much as it is because your target audience isn't necessarily scientifically literate, but regardless I have to say that your force explanation is kind of questionable in regard to its accuracy. On a basic level, a force is a one-dimensional vector value. It doesn't travel through your body like an electric current, taking various turns and what have you. Thus, the whole reasoning of the force twisting and turning is kind of odd.
A better explanation would be to describe the situation more accurately by talking about how the gun-body system is basically a situation of applied torque. Simplifying this model quite a bit, you are applying a force to your body with acts like the Arm and the Pivot/Fulcrum Point is at your feet. This results in a rotational motion which where the gun and your upper body rotates around the fulcrum point which results in the gun eventually points up.
The reason that the shotgun is less prone to rotating up when you pull on it is because now you have applied a second pivot point to the gun which is literally your support hand. Because that pivot point it overlapping the travel path of the one-dimensional vector force, there is less rotation since less force is being applies into the Arm (i.e. your body) that is pivoting around the first fulcrum point (i.e. your feet). Hypothetically, if your only pivot point was your support hand (and assuming you didn't loose hold of the gun), then all of the force travels through that overlapping pivot point and there should be no rotation at all.
No the vector changes based on torque applied.
recipe for elbow tendinitis imo.
No, not a bit. Never lock your elbow.
Sir Isaac Newton will not be denied, but he can be cheated a little bit. Good video.
Physics ain't a suggestion...it's the LAW!
Страдает словесным поносом...
What's up with the ears?
They’re fun. Full stop.
Boykisser
i see where the killer of Arbury watched this video a lot of times
I think this is a great technique for an auto-loading shotgun but doesn't work so well with a pump action shotgun.
Can you explain your thoughts on this? I had a pump that was well worn...I noticed if I pulled the slide forward while firing it wouldn't misfire.
At the time I'd never heard of this method and didn't pay attention as to whether or not I was staying on target because I was more focused on eliminating a misfire.
Not true. It works incredibly well for a pump gun.
Lol, errf
I think being able to defend yourself let alone your whole family you need to be in up to snuff physically. Can’t be out of breath just talking in a video. People get shot and close the distance on police all the time and if the didn’t have backup they’d be deleted
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My advice stands. What now?
@@ASPextraso did his. You’ve lost a lot of weight keep it up you look great! But what he said isn’t invalidated because you’re in shape now
jake paul song
wut?
Can you say mansplaining?