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42. Manchester's New Control Panel at Mckinley Railway.
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- čas přidán 21. 05. 2021
- With the development of a control panel for the Sheffield freight yard, we thought that the Manchester panel could be drastically improved. Here's how we went about its redesign.
Morning David. What a fantastic video on your new panel 👍🏻 Always enjoy your updates on what’s becoming a great layout. Cheers Stevie.
Mckinley, David. Thank you for this. I have to say I love a good control panel, ever since I saw the late W.S. Norris's "O" gauge layout in 1959. The panel's all used Large relay's and telephone switch board key's. A good control panel is a thing of beauty. Can't wait to see Part 2. Well time for a cup of tea and to watch it all again. Cheer's Chris Perry.
Looks good. Looks much better than going touch screen.
As usual this looks absolutely fantastic and you can definitely tell the entire McKinley team is very passionate about this excellent project.
Thank you.
Absolutely brilliant new panels! Wish I lived closer to Mckinley to be able to visit once things are more open!
3:42 you NAILED IT in my latest video it’s what I’m all about even considering maybe going wire in tube because if I’m not playing and operating with it and sit back and let a computer do it all then what was the point. Love it. You and Charles over at Chadwick are always a good chalk n cheese chat duo.
Really excellent video thanks for sharing, looking forward t part 2. Very timely for me given where I am currently on my layout development.
Very interesting for me at the moment as I am just rebuilding my control panel...at the 3rd attempt to get it right!!!
Cheers, Bob
Great update. Huge amount of thought going this as we have come to expect!
Glad to see you back!
A well planned, designed display panel and it looks like the company that made it have a great manufacturing process. A name to put into my address folder for later when I will need it.
Fully agree on using a single switch to control a crossover.
Interesting. Looking forward to the oncoming episodes.
Nice video i like the control pannel it looks like something that you would see in a signal box.
Ah yes... your are on our wavelength.
Very interesting and very detailed and high quality work ... amazing project you have and plenty of evolution along the way! I’ve recently built a control panel for a new storage yard and used 3mm plywood with printed paper overlaid and sticky back plastic over the top to help protect it. I also printed a reversed plan and stuck to the underside of the panel to help when wiring. Certainty nowhere near the quality of the work of your team and project ... look forward to seeing the next part. 👍
I love that idea for the reverse print to aid wiring. Thank you.
thank you share detail video
As long as someone is living my dream and I get to watch it must be what heaven is like?
Very interesting to see how you have upgraded and significantly improved your panels, well done. I laid out and built similar reaching same conclusions as you (33 switches and about 130 leds) but sandwiching my CAD paper A3 prints of mimics etc inbetween two layers of perspex - no access to laser cutter - have to be self sufficient. Always wary about software that you can get left orphaned or ripped off on upgrade costs. Watch those switches when soldering, its easy to momentarily overheat and dislodge the contacts to get intermittent failures, let them cool completely before attempting the next connection. Great job and yet another alternative method and views! Stephen
Thanks for your comments Stephen. Clever idea with the perspex. We didn't buy any software to do this. I used a local graphics designer and a Laser Cutting service. They figured all that stuff out.
Touch screen could be replaced by trackball mouse, so size of screen not a problem,
html + drawings could be used for layout, raspberry pi + relays/ssr to give feedback/signals to loconet
(remote gpio control is possible between pc/rpi and many rpi),
Near instant remote viewing of another panel is then also possible.
Need 20 "switches" not anymore, move mouse pointer to "switch" position on layout (see html map tag),
and then use the only real electrical switch for those who prefer that or just use alternate click on mouse.
Another advantage, no physical panel is unique, all are interchangeable, panel can easily switch to live video feed,
rpi has wireless so station gets the hardware controller rpi (+ maybe even act as access point),
operator gets pi-zero+screen+trackball+switch (just needs powercable or battery)
initial cost is more but has better flexibility in the long run.
I accept what you are saying and we have some mimic panels on the iPad system. I use it to manually control switches in hidden areas if I need it. I agreed that control panels are not flexible, but the most important thing for me is that the operators engage with the railway. I want each station panel to be a focal point for the operators. Something to behold and admire.. Touching the switches on a panel is empowering, very quick and two operators can be using the same panel at the same time. I suppose its about choices in the end.
Hi Dave.
Yet again, more technological ingenuity on your part. Well done!
Now, once again, you mention colour-blindness, something that blights the lives of many modellers. There is an alternative to colour coding the track layout on your display panel and that is 'morsing'. It is simply replacing track colouring with morse symbols i.e. ..., ---, .-.-, and maybe === for the main line (as an example) etc. The term 'morsing' is one that I have created and is not in the Oxford English Dictionary so, even though an alternative system may not be necessary for you, I thought it worth mentioning here for the benefit of all your other viewers.
All the best,
Paul. 👍
Hello Paul, your suggestion reminds me of my trip to Norway. They have taken the real world to the ultimate on morse support. most railway stations, they have provided a raised metal plan of the building with pathways lined out between the areas or zones. Physically, they have laid a raised line of shallow metal pins and plates on the ground to allow you to walk the plan. You can feel the physical morsing on the ground. I will think on your idea. Thank you.
Hi Dave.
Thanks for your response. Your experience in Norway makes my suggestion a little more plausible than it appears at first glance. Hopefully, everyone reading my suggestion will stop laughing now. As for your Scandinavian venture, I never had you down as a skier. You must have been watching too many James Bond films so be careful on those slopes, we don't want you ending up bow legged, do we.
Take care,
Paul.
I'd love to see more details on how your platform and interlock switches work and the underlying components required to make them work and interact with traincontroller.
Hello Chris,
I gave a fully reply to Nick Young on his similar comment. Have a read of that and if you want any more info come back to me.
David
Thanks David
I bet Dave at Megapoint Controllers is a bit miffed he didn't get the business to do all your panels at McKinley, and that his design ideas were somewhat copied ! -
Great to heat that you are supporting local companies, and the end product does look very nice. The only problem I have with these update videos is that they are too short :) - I'm sure we would love to see hour long videos covering the topics rather than it being split into three or four 15 minute ones... it just gets really interesting and then you say "in the next video..." - Noooo ! I can't wait....I was hooked and want to see more :)
He has a great system and I would have used it but it doesn't drive LocoNet. I am not sure who dreamed up using reverse perspex for control panels in the first place but there are lots of companies offering that service. Embedding my favourite switches took many hours of puzzling. Anyway, They key point from my perspective was the design. That took a group of people many dozen of hours. I think Dave would have pulled his hair out with us going through the revisions we did. Sheffield went through 14!
On the length of videos its a tough call. They take a lot of time to generate in the first place and most viewers would probably fall of their perches if I waxed on for an hour. We try to find a balance between building the layout and sharing the journey. To give you an idea of the effort to produce an hour long video. It would take me a day to generate the storyboard, preparing data and scenes, then a day to film and probably two days for Charlie to edit! Its very disruptive on the team effort as nothing can get done while we film. You will have to be more patient Mr Crabbe. :-)
Oil refineries, chemical plants, etc. have been using touch screens since the 1990s, until your experience with iPhones and cars, the touch screen is used to select the item to be controlled but the operator will press a button on keyboard to enter the controller set point, change its mode, start/stop a motor etc.
Thats an interesting concept and it make sense... You have got me thinking...
@@dattouk Sorry, I forgot to add; for many refinery etc. control systems, even though the screens are touch sensitive, now that flat panels are ubiquitous and large, (Honeywell's Orion console uses 2x 50" panels, the previous console design, like your computer console, used 4x 20" or so displays), most operators will navigate using a mouse, or trackball as they don't get lost when piles of paper are put on the desk. So being touch sensitive may not be so critical.
Great vid thanks .....
I like your ideas. The single toggle for the crossovers is good and saves space. We had panels like yours (not as nice) many years ago when our club was all DC and they worked very well. It took only a simple explanation to a new member to get them running. The only thing I would change is the size of the panel. I would elongate it somewhat and make it larger thus eliminating some of the clutter. I like very much the color coding though. How many of these panels will you have on the road??? Oh, I love the short circuit lighting you have. Very good!!! The very first DCC system I had had a loud buzzer built in and we would have the track power on when soldering the droppers and if one was going to be put wrong, the buzzer would warn anyone that they would have a problem. OMG this was back 40 years ago when DCC was not being used much. I bought a system from a new start up company that let me use sound, horn, and bells. That was about all that the hand controller could do. Keller engineering was the manufacturer but I do not know what came of them. Can'r wait for he next video.
HI Dave,
You wouldn't believe how big the Sheffield panel is. There will be two identical ones. They are already 13" x 28" (33cm x 71cm). I'll run out of wall space to hang them if I made them bigger. We have a further 4 in planning for the extension. 2 for Wakefield and 2 for Halifax. You have just given me an idea for the next Panel video update - gracias. Glad you are enjoying the journey with us.
Other factors against touch screens: as we age, our skin dries out so doesn't work well with touch screens; and old stiff arthritic fingers get clumsy - difficult to avoid only finger nail touching the screen.
Question, prob one that has been asked before, but how do the Interlock and Platform release buttons work with Train Controller?
Would also like to say what you are doing is amazing, it has inspired me to build my own semiautomatic railway.
Did you guys consider using DTM30 30 Channel Super Tower masters? They are sold by Signatrak but originally designed by CML electronics I beleive. I used these to build our layouts control panels and have really liked them, gaining feedback for turnouts block detection and short circuit protection, along with turnout control. The benifit of having it a stand alone board for each panel and loconet interface has been outstanding.
I do have to say it is a impressive design of the panel itself hiding the lock nuts on the toggles. I am tempted to go back and laser cut mine to achieve that clean effect.
There seems to be some confusion here. We did use DTM30 boards - we rely on them 100%. I could have spoken more about them, but these two videos were focused on the improvements on appearance and usability of the Panels not the technical functionality of the TowerMaster boards. The functionality that Laurence put in to the original DTM16 and DTM16A (the precursors to the DTM30) was developed with us at the outset in the early 2000s. His web site picture featured the current London Panel.
Control panel looks fantastic. Where did you get the plastic composite?
The laser cutting chap supplies it. They are called:
www.heycreate.co.uk/
I believe the material supplier's web site is:
www.908ltd.co.uk/shop/reverse-laser-engraving-laminate
David
Fascinating the planning that goes into this, just a thought, was a touch overlay considered? A film that detects touch input that can be laid over a screen or a panel and detects pressure/touch input for this purpose, seems like a potential halfway point between an ipad and a actual board
The problem with touch panels is that they suffer from all limitations of the glass screen in terms of lack of tactile
feedback PLUS it is often much slower to visually report back. The benefit of the physical panel with switches is you know it has moved and as the panels are wired into the LocoNet bus directly, via the DTM30 the points change fairly instantly. We are using touch screen displays on wall mounted monitors for the Freight Manager screen (upcoming video), but our intention with these is that the touch interface is the tool of last resort. We also found out that integrated "Touch" displays have a limitation in screen resolution. We cannot find a manufacturer who produces a greater resolution than 1080p (so 1920 x 1080) irrespective of the actual monitor size. I hope that makes sense. David
Nice work! The toggle switches you are using look nice quality, do you have a link for them, thanks. Wish you had done a longer video, it was over too quickly, now waiting for the next bit! ;-)
They are available from most suppliers. Here is the link on Rapid.
www.rapidonline.com/salecom-t8014a-sebq-h-spdt-on-off-on-sprung-min-toggle-switch-75-0086
Thanks for link👍
What nice it turned out, what's the name of the plastic you've used?
I'll find out.
I like your panels you use. But what is the best and cheapest way to have your railway running auto. I am looking for the best way off doing this. Your railway looks amazing 👍
How big is your railway? By that I mean, how many sections of track are there on your layout where a train would sit and how many points have to be changed by the software. Those two factors are the key questions. You can get away with one sensor per train block. The cost in the digitrax world for a BDL168 with 16 sensors is say £115 from Coastal DCC. That equates to £7.25 per train block. You have to also put digital controllers for the point motors. You can buy software such as TrainController for €121 or wait for it $220 (OUCH) in the UK. An alternative is iTrains at €119 . Either will run trains in an automated fashion. Hope that gives you some idea.
@@dattouk Thank you for the information. My railway layout is 12ft by 11ft the fiddle yard under the board is the same but only on two side on two levels with two helix. I have two reversal loops run by a Ar1 x4, 2 on each loop. At the I run it with Bachmann dcc controller ( latest model). Hope I give you enough information. Thanks again
I've been watching all of the videos over the last couple of weeks. What an amazing layout! I've noticed the blue supports you use between the different layers of the layout - did you make these yourselves or did you purchase them?
Ah.. Those blue supports are nylon tubing: 10MM O/D X 8MM I/D covering M8 metal rodding.
Hi dave, do you have a pdf of the track plans on the layout? I find it hard to follow sometimes and would like some inspiration.
Thanks, Lewis
Hi Lewis, the trouble with a PDF is that it is equally impossible to follow as here are too many levels. What I will do is generate some videos of the trains moving around the layout as it stands. If I add commentary, it would be a bit more enlightening. I'll do one before and after we have populated Hades. I hope that helps.
Thinking about the size problem with touch-screens David, do you not get touch-screen televisions? Could something like that maybe be adapted?
The max resolution of most affordable touch screen monitors is 1080p. The Sheffield panel is very big and as I said. I like the tactile feedback.
Any one know where I can buy the sheet material here in the UK.
I'll find out. Do you want the material or the finished "Laser" cut output.
For the life of me, I dont know why more people arent using Dave Fenton's MegaPoints Controllers. I think his mimic panel prices are a bit high but you can do that yourself or find a local laser cutter.
They are great... As I said in the video. There's one bit I need that he didn't have: LocoNet. Its the key to the integrated operations on McKinley.
Interesting! The new panel does look better.
Was there any reason that you did not go with an NX panel design? I know that TrainController can do NX routing, as I use this for the IECC emulation on my model.
Hello james. I have to admit that I don't know what NX panel design encompasses or means. Whats it about? How would it help?
@@dattouk "NX" stands for "eNtry, eXit" (which I presume was thought easier to remember than "EE", which might have been confused with "English Electric"). NX panels have been used by British Rail(ways) since at least the 1960s, and this system continues to be used in modern signalling centres with computer controlled signalling (e.g. the IECCs of the 1980s and later).
The way that this works is that, instead of setting each turnout and signal individually as would be the case in traditional lever frames (or the Westinghouse mini-lever frames of the early/mid 20th century as used on electrified routes on the Southern or the London Underground and its company predecessors from electrification in the 1900s onwards), one simply selects a start and end point of a route, and all the turnouts are set automatically following the route. On traditional NX panels, there are buttons for the entry and exit points. For "glass panel" computerised signalling centres, this is done by clicking (originally with a trackball, now I believe that mice are used) the signals at the entry and exit points. (Seach CZcams for "Points and aspects" for a splendid early 1970s film of the installation of one of these panels on the WCML).
To give an example - looking at your Manchester Park Street panel (11:05), for up workings out of the station, you might have a button in each of the platforms and a button at a point on the main line just before wherever is the next signal (I am not sure where this is from your panel - perhaps somewhere near the bottom left). To set a route between platform 1 (for example) and the up line, all that you would do is press the button in platform 1 and then press the button on the up line, and the whole route from platform 1 to this point would be set automatically - if the route were free. This route would be reserved until it is cancelled or the train has passed over it and cleared it, preventing any conflicting route from being set. If the route were not free, nothing would happen. For a down working, one would have a button on the down line and press that, followed by one of the platform buttons.
If you want to play with this system, you can download "SimSig" software, which is a very accurate simulation of modern (IECC era) UK railway signalling centres. Some of the simulations are free, some you have to pay for; but the free ones will give a clear feel for how this works.
TrainController actually natively supports NX panels, either from its own interface (which can be reconfigured to look and work a lot like an IECC, as I have done with my own: have a look at my "Model Railway Videos" channel on diode.zone - although I have not fully covered NX signalling on this channel yet; but the "Timetabled Working" video will give a flavour), or from a hardware panel whose buttons presses can be understood by TrainController. (It is a little harder to set up bidirectional routes this way, as only unidirectional routes have native NX support, but it can be done with some macros and it is not too complex). I suspect that you can probably work it out from the manual, but do let me know if you would like more information as to how to set this up (and make it work for bidirectional routing, e.g., into terminating roads).
I plan when my layout is up and running to have remote operating sessions where people can connect to my instance of TrainController over the internet and operate the layout as signaller (IECC style), seeing the trains on the layout using Zoom or similar. I should be happy to invite you and your McKinley colleagues to take part if you are interested when I have got it all up and running, although my layout is much smaller than yours (but it is a decent representation of a fairly major station on a principal main line).
Although not entirely realistic in terms of BR signal panel design, you could in principle retrofit NX working to existing panels just by adding buttons for the entry/exit points ("points" in the sense of points in space, rather than turnouts), and leaving the existing switches for individual turnouts should anyone wish to control these manually (e.g. for yard shunting, testing or as redundancy in case of fault).
The advantage of NX routing is that it adds another layer of automation, reducing the workload of signallers - it is also a more realistic simulation of modern UK signalling practice on main lines.
In any event, I have been enjoying watching the progress on your awe-inspiring layout for some years now; I shall look forward to future videos!
@@dattouk A further thought to the previous post: if I recall correctly from previous videos, your system is to have the trains running fully automatically unless the block entries/exits are locked with the buttons, and then to have them running fully manually for shunting. Your operators may thus not need to be doing many movements of the kind "platform 1 to up main" or similar; but NX routing might well still be useful for "platform 1 to CS3", for instance, or "goods arrival to coal tower" or similar.
Alternatively, you might switch automatic control for the whole area in and out and use NX routing for the main lines as described in the first response when the area is under manual control; the trains can still be driven automatically on the main lines when this is being done. You might then repurpose the existing buttons for locking each individual platform for this purpose.
also do you need wires, soldering iron, screws and screw driver for these
yes all of the above.
question, how did you done these plans, those plans were incredible?
I engaged a graphics artist Sam Clemance to help us out.. He uses Adobe Illustrator. You can reach him at:
samclemance.com/
if you and Charley ran our real railways we might get from Chichester to London faster than we did in 1927 not slower.