Thanks for the invaluable information and sharing your knowledge, I spoke to you and members of your team on Sunday at Alexander Palace it inspiring and wonderful to watch this video. It's unfortunate as you said you don't have time to write a book about it all, many thanks for the advice and brilliant videos.
The rules that you have established for sizing the power supplies makes great sense! Enjoyed seeing the detail being so clearly explained. Well done and good luck from Spain!!
David, did you notice that when you were explaining about the wiring of the frogs that whenever you touched the electrified track, an audible buzz would appear on your mic? Something to be aware of for the next video. Keep up the good work all @ McKinley.
Greetings from Sweden. As always, you produce very informative, yet light hearted, videos. I'm learning something new every time. Please keep up the good work. Thanks.
David and co, another splendid video on how the layout will hopefully work within itself to prevent derailments, crashes, short circuits etc. The amount of technology you and the folks at McR use is astonishing for control of the layout. DCC is wonderful stuff to bring realism to running a layout via computer and manual control and that is not even including the Decoders, Sound Chips, Speaker units and the rolling stock used. Though most of the latter sentence and its items belong to the individual members that own them. I would hate to know how much this huge, but wonderful layout, digital control track work may have cost to date. With all the circuit boards, micro controllers, boosters, point motors, detectors, and power units must be astronomical to the clubs out going funds. Never mind all the track, points and wood used in this whole project. How many years has the layout build been going on at McKinley, and if this project will ever get to the stage of having the scenic areas started, for all this ground-breaking track work? With the pandemic cozing a huge blip in the build of the layout's timeframe (for God knows how long) was to take. How has the club prepared for the future and the timing of getting beyond the track laying? To start adding the landscaping, buildings, roads etc over this networked line of routes and sidings etc. Where abouts in the future are you aiming for this latter work to begin on top of this marvellous laid track plan to pay out on its dividends? Have you reached a stage to say well, this year the landscaping of 'X' will begin, then by this date to hopefully to start section 'Y' on the layout etc? I know members would be building units off screen, but excluding any off that work behind the scenes, when will viewers see work on the layout boards scenes starting to be added, and to be able to see McKinley as a running Railway Layout?
That will also prevent the loco which is approaching the wrongly-set points from fouling the junction. That would prevent any damage caused by a conflicting movement. Sounds like a sensible system.😁👍
HI John, We started in 2000 and were building for 6 years. We then played for 10 and then started the extension in 2016. So phase 2 will be complete by the end of this year. We won't start the landscaping until we have operated for 6 months. There is a plan but everything takes a lot longer than we envisage and that has nothing to do with Covid. It has turned into a longer journey than originally envisaged, but we see the progress day by day.
@@dattoukIs the layout in a purpose build building or a part of a home layout that has an extension to house it all in a member's home/mansion, LOL. The layout is an exceedingly long project by you all, and the best laid plans is to make sure all the track work works as intended. Then the landscaping can go ahead once all the little bugs are ironed out that may still crop up. It is impressive to see it now, but it be just as fabulous as Pendon has become today. Maybe one day I will get over to see it in the flesh, if I can get to your region of the UK from Belfast to view all the wonderful work you folks have put into this layout.
Loved your power district- and points show case - thanks! I see the problem with DCC controlled points, but the amount of hardware and wiring you have used for block control alone, still want me to try and control this with software. Having simple current detectors and points sending simple DCC messages back over the network instead of all those boards and wires. I will probably have a "DOH!"-moment, when I get to where I realize why everybody are using all these boards and wires....
I think I agree, what about a seperate DCC bus for switch machines, another seperate DCC system for block detection/running and yet another full system for signals. Rfid on its own as well. Three / four bus’s command stations all connected back to train controller to co-ordinate things? Is that one way to reduce wiring a rats nest?
The issue with block detection is that you basically start to replicate in a basic form the modern railway signalising system. They just used bigger cables. There will be a way to do it using RFID readers but arguably that becomes just as many cables once you start to realise how many RFID readers you need.
Hi DSB, It's a case of what you want to control. If you want automation, you need blocks - Blocks means wires. If you have a large layout then you need power blocks - that means some wires but not as many as occupancy blocks. As Mark Stafford has said in this thread, you could have a DCC booster dedicated to points. That avoids lots of wires yet still gives operational safety. Its about working out your end goals - No automation and a small layout - simple - just 2 wires. Big layout, automation etc = 100's of wires. David
Mark, You make a good point about a separate DCC system for the points, but I don't now how you can make a simple DCC system for occupancy - Occupancy requires separate track blocks which equates to wires. RFID can be used but it becomes expensive to use intensively and hard to measure occupancy. You'd have to have something clever to track vehicles in and then out of blocks. The truth of the matter is it in't suited particularly well for automation in the sense of running trains. All it gives is some like "I have seen this wagon/loco over that that sensor just now". It doesn't know if it is still in the block or not. Each methodology of detection has benefits and drawbacks. My world is definitely overkill, but I want my railway to behave as well as it can so hence the use of different systems. Current draw occupancy for TrainController. Infra Red for the stop indicators, again for TrainControllers. RFID for the operational yard movements and freight tracking. Take care, David
David, A few years ago I did hear tell of a new large wind farm being built out in the North Sea. I can now see what all that extra power generation was to be used for. I have noted that a number of American layout's that use D.C.C. to control point motors have gone back to throwing switch's to give operators more " faith" in control. More so when you have guest operators. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Hi Chris, Yes DCC point operation HAS to be protected from Shorts. It turns layout operation into a nightmare if not. We use LocoNet and that is very dependable.
Sorry about that Dak Dak. This stuff only applies to people building larger layouts. It is confusing at first as there is som much technical vocabulary. If there is anything we can help explain please ask. Regards David
Marvellous. And I like how just like the massive model railway at the Whyalla maritime museum in South AUSTRALIA you need to create a system that works for the application. There giant layout is DC and is so for redundancy. Their club layout is DCC I use DCC and using the DCC digital points however for smiley ol me the point wiring and operations are a secondary circuit track layout. Why. Even I don’t know it just seems logical and gives me redundancy to run it anyway I like and it’s my layout so whatever makes me happy. I’m with you on the power capacity plan. Does my layout need servicing by 3phase to the house of course NOT did I put a dedicated 3 phase sub board to power my layout? Your darn tootin I did. Stay safe and all the best to Charles when you next see him from Chadwick.
to avoid the problem you showed with the switcher at the end of the video, The DCC Guy showed a trick with a Tortoise switch machine whereby the power to the first 12 inches of 2 pieces of track connected to the switch frog is changed as the switch is switched...... the end result is a loco approaching a switch that is set against it will stop before it enters the switch as power is routed to the other track
Hi George, I think we are at crossed logic here. The frog short works fine for all our locos except the stay-alive shunters. That is reason why the shunter carried on (because it had a stay alive). No matter whether the power was x or y , on or off, the Shunter will continue running at the last known speed until its energy pack is drained. I could pick the engine up off the track and the wheels keep turning. No change to track power logic would make any difference. Does that explain? David
@@dattouk Hi David, I get it ... the stay alive "defeats" the switching of power between the tracks at the end of the frog...thanks for pointing that out to me... best wishes for more uptime on your railroad....I live in Canada and am not sure when I'll visit England again...I 'll be looking to visit McKinley on a virtual basis in the future.
A simple, low cost, way of getting an estimate of booster load/current, is to measure the incoming current from the power supply. There are many devices, much cheaper than the RRampmeter which will give that current. Its enough to know if the booster is anywhere near its maximum. As the video shows, with most modern locos the current demand isn't high. It also indicates that the short circuit protection should be at a fairly low current. I agree with your use of short circuit protection in frogs - stop the trains if the track is set wrongly. Any decent decoder (which includes ESU and Zimo) have CV settings for length of run time without DCC signal, so you can cause them to stop after a loss of power of, say, 1/4 second. So, the decoder will stop before falling off at the blades.
Great job as usual David and Charlie. I agree that the ambient load on the yard was suprisingly low, given how many consuming devices were parked there. Your "opposing forces" test was similarly interesting - but I can't help wondering if two locos slipping on shiny track is representative? It may be, but I would have preferred seeing the current pulled by a loco hauling a 6 or 8 coach train up a helix? Seeing the figures for that would be very interesting. Some great info in this edition - many thanks guys!
Hi Alan, It's no more on the helix. On the whole, current draw is light. The interesting thing I should have done was to "Stall" the loco by pressing down on it to stop the wheels turning and leaving the power on for say 2 seconds. If I get time I will report back on "stalled" motor load... From my experience that is the biggest current draw.
Good, interesting video. I've never used a frog juicer, but that has occurred to me about them, that they will allow a train to continue and possibly derail. Depends on the size of the layout how much of an issue it is, I suppose. But that's a clear argument why not to use them!
Au contraire Bill. Running trains is what the mission is about. Come back in a year when we have finished the technical stuff and watch the operators living in Train heaven. Regards David
David, thanks for this video. I particularly liked the part about stopping locomotives running through points which are set against them. You mentioned that the points are not DCC controlled, but you seemed to control them from the same control unit as the loco. Thinking about the power consumption of your extensive layout, it would be interesting to know how much energy your complete set up consumes when working.
Hello Andrew. The whole layout was brought up last week for the first time in 2 years. It roughly consumes 2 kW which equates to about 60p per hour when turned on. So not as expensive as running a car. With respect to points, we can control them from the throttles (which also drive the Locos on DCC) but we don't control them through the command station. There are Point control devices (such as a DS64 or a DAC20) attached to the same LocoNet bus that the throttle is attached to which see the switch instructions being sent from the throttles and act on them. Those switch commands are also received by the command station and sent out over DCC, but there is nothing on the DCC rails to act on them. It appears confusing, but it is quite straightforward. Regards David
@@dattouk Thanks for your reply. I was expecting a much higher consumption figure for your system taking into account the number of monitors and computers involved.
Another brilliant instalment. Can you share with us were you purchased you ‘pennies’ from? or did you manufacture them yourselves? Looking forward to the next episode.
We bought some pennies and got a friend to braze the together. We did start off with 50p pieces but they kept getting into peoples pockets.. Hence the logic...
Instead of the "red penny" you could have put kill switches on the control boards for each circuit sector, or did hands-on experience shown that the operators got the wrong button to often?
Your logic could be done easily, but I am going to disagree with your thinking because.... Simple logic has to apply. The Operator sees the engine. He sees the track, He grabs the penny and put it there in front of the train. He have no time to think. We don't want to force the operator to try and work out where on the control panel is the relevant kill switch for that section of track.
Hi George, We have not worked with them. One of my friends who owns Bournemouth West swears they are the best, but we have not had time to evaluate them. I will have a look when we have finished building this beastie. Regards David
You may find you damage your models when you pick them up but also note in real life you don’t have a giant hand coming down from above to resolve a problem
Hi Chris, Yes exactly. Thats why we short the trains on the frog. Once the point direction has been corrected the loco will move again and the hand of god is not required.
Out of interest, how many watts of power does Mckinley use when all the possible trains are running with sound locos, all point motors and signals plus lighting etc. Over a 1000 watts maybe?
and more. The extension takes about 2kWh. We are about to switch both the old and the new on together and I would anticipate a full layout with all the above plus computers would be just over 3kWh (3000 Wh). So thats about 30 old 100W lightbulbs... Not quite in the Wembley Stadium category of consumption. David
if only there was a way to apply asynchronous track signal against every point.. then you could just use a brake mode to stop any train from running into a bad frog.. (even with stay alive!)..
I have no desire to build a model railway myself, but I really enjoy seeing you work out the issues and build a fascinating layout.
Thanks for the invaluable information and sharing your knowledge, I spoke to you and members of your team on Sunday at Alexander Palace it inspiring and wonderful to watch this video. It's unfortunate as you said you don't have time to write a book about it all, many thanks for the advice and brilliant videos.
Enjoyed that. Nice to see thing practically demonstrated
A great set of best practices. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
THANK YOU FOR GREAT VIDEO
FROM AUSTRALIA
The rules that you have established for sizing the power supplies makes great sense! Enjoyed seeing the detail being so clearly explained. Well done and good luck from Spain!!
Glad it was helpful!
David, did you notice that when you were explaining about the wiring of the frogs that whenever you touched the electrified track, an audible buzz would appear on your mic? Something to be aware of for the next video. Keep up the good work all @ McKinley.
Keep the videos coming
Greetings from Sweden. As always, you produce very informative, yet light hearted, videos. I'm learning something new every time. Please keep up the good work. Thanks.
Hello Anders, Thanks for your supportive words.. They mean a lot.
Never ceases to amaze me David, the efforts and design put in to achieve safety and faultless operation.
Its a mission Bob....
I remain bemused. But love watching the videos
David and co, another splendid video on how the layout will hopefully work within itself to prevent derailments, crashes, short circuits etc. The amount of technology you and the folks at McR use is astonishing for control of the layout. DCC is wonderful stuff to bring realism to running a layout via computer and manual control and that is not even including the Decoders, Sound Chips, Speaker units and the rolling stock used. Though most of the latter sentence and its items belong to the individual members that own them. I would hate to know how much this huge, but wonderful layout, digital control track work may have cost to date. With all the circuit boards, micro controllers, boosters, point motors, detectors, and power units must be astronomical to the clubs out going funds. Never mind all the track, points and wood used in this whole project.
How many years has the layout build been going on at McKinley, and if this project will ever get to the stage of having the scenic areas started, for all this ground-breaking track work? With the pandemic cozing a huge blip in the build of the layout's timeframe (for God knows how long) was to take. How has the club prepared for the future and the timing of getting beyond the track laying? To start adding the landscaping, buildings, roads etc over this networked line of routes and sidings etc. Where abouts in the future are you aiming for this latter work to begin on top of this marvellous laid track plan to pay out on its dividends? Have you reached a stage to say well, this year the landscaping of 'X' will begin, then by this date to hopefully to start section 'Y' on the layout etc? I know members would be building units off screen, but excluding any off that work behind the scenes, when will viewers see work on the layout boards scenes starting to be added, and to be able to see McKinley as a running Railway Layout?
That will also prevent the loco which is approaching the wrongly-set points from fouling the junction. That would prevent any damage caused by a conflicting movement. Sounds like a sensible system.😁👍
Thanks...
HI John,
We started in 2000 and were building for 6 years. We then played for 10 and then started the extension in 2016. So phase 2 will be complete by the end of this year. We won't start the landscaping until we have operated for 6 months. There is a plan but everything takes a lot longer than we envisage and that has nothing to do with Covid. It has turned into a longer journey than originally envisaged, but we see the progress day by day.
@@dattoukIs the layout in a purpose build building or a part of a home layout that has an extension to house it all in a member's home/mansion, LOL. The layout is an exceedingly long project by you all, and the best laid plans is to make sure all the track work works as intended. Then the landscaping can go ahead once all the little bugs are ironed out that may still crop up. It is impressive to see it now, but it be just as fabulous as Pendon has become today. Maybe one day I will get over to see it in the flesh, if I can get to your region of the UK from Belfast to view all the wonderful work you folks have put into this layout.
Loved your power district- and points show case - thanks! I see the problem with DCC controlled points, but the amount of hardware and wiring you have used for block control alone, still want me to try and control this with software. Having simple current detectors and points sending simple DCC messages back over the network instead of all those boards and wires. I will probably have a "DOH!"-moment, when I get to where I realize why everybody are using all these boards and wires....
I think I agree, what about a seperate DCC bus for switch machines, another seperate DCC system for block detection/running and yet another full system for signals. Rfid on its own as well. Three / four bus’s command stations all connected back to train controller to co-ordinate things? Is that one way to reduce wiring a rats nest?
The issue with block detection is that you basically start to replicate in a basic form the modern railway signalising system. They just used bigger cables.
There will be a way to do it using RFID readers but arguably that becomes just as many cables once you start to realise how many RFID readers you need.
Hi DSB,
It's a case of what you want to control. If you want automation, you need blocks - Blocks means wires.
If you have a large layout then you need power blocks - that means some wires but not as many as occupancy blocks.
As Mark Stafford has said in this thread, you could have a DCC booster dedicated to points. That avoids lots of wires yet still gives operational safety.
Its about working out your end goals - No automation and a small layout - simple - just 2 wires. Big layout, automation etc = 100's of wires.
David
Mark, You make a good point about a separate DCC system for the points, but I don't now how you can make a simple DCC system for occupancy - Occupancy requires separate track blocks which equates to wires. RFID can be used but it becomes expensive to use intensively and hard to measure occupancy. You'd have to have something clever to track vehicles in and then out of blocks. The truth of the matter is it in't suited particularly well for automation in the sense of running trains. All it gives is some like "I have seen this wagon/loco over that that sensor just now". It doesn't know if it is still in the block or not. Each methodology of detection has benefits and drawbacks. My world is definitely overkill, but I want my railway to behave as well as it can so hence the use of different systems. Current draw occupancy for TrainController. Infra Red for the stop indicators, again for TrainControllers. RFID for the operational yard movements and freight tracking.
Take care,
David
My my what big boosters you have
David, A few years ago I did hear tell of a new large wind farm being built out in the North Sea. I can now see what all that extra power generation was to be used for. I have noted that a number of American layout's that use D.C.C. to control point motors have gone back to throwing switch's to give operators more " faith" in control. More so when you have guest operators. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Hi Chris,
Yes DCC point operation HAS to be protected from Shorts. It turns layout operation into a nightmare if not. We use LocoNet and that is very dependable.
amused and bemused, and perhaps a little educated. Zones, blocks, districts, boosters…going to need a McKinley thesaurus please.
Sorry about that Dak Dak. This stuff only applies to people building larger layouts. It is confusing at first as there is som much technical vocabulary. If there is anything we can help explain please ask. Regards David
Really interesting and well explained 🤩
Glad you liked it.
Marvellous. And I like how just like the massive model railway at the Whyalla maritime museum in South AUSTRALIA you need to create a system that works for the application. There giant layout is DC and is so for redundancy. Their club layout is DCC I use DCC and using the DCC digital points however for smiley ol me the point wiring and operations are a secondary circuit track layout. Why. Even I don’t know it just seems logical and gives me redundancy to run it anyway I like and it’s my layout so whatever makes me happy. I’m with you on the power capacity plan. Does my layout need servicing by 3phase to the house of course NOT did I put a dedicated 3 phase sub board to power my layout? Your darn tootin I did. Stay safe and all the best to Charles when you next see him from Chadwick.
to avoid the problem you showed with the switcher at the end of the video, The DCC Guy showed a trick with a Tortoise switch machine whereby the power to the first 12 inches of 2 pieces of track connected to the switch frog is changed as the switch is switched...... the end result is a loco approaching a switch that is set against it will stop before it enters the switch as power is routed to the other track
Hi George, I think we are at crossed logic here. The frog short works fine for all our locos except the stay-alive shunters. That is reason why the shunter carried on (because it had a stay alive). No matter whether the power was x or y , on or off, the Shunter will continue running at the last known speed until its energy pack is drained. I could pick the engine up off the track and the wheels keep turning. No change to track power logic would make any difference. Does that explain? David
@@dattouk Hi David, I get it ... the stay alive "defeats" the switching of power between the tracks at the end of the frog...thanks for pointing that out to me... best wishes for more uptime on your railroad....I live in Canada and am not sure when I'll visit England again...I 'll be looking to visit McKinley on a virtual basis in the future.
A simple, low cost, way of getting an estimate of booster load/current, is to measure the incoming current from the power supply. There are many devices, much cheaper than the RRampmeter which will give that current. Its enough to know if the booster is anywhere near its maximum.
As the video shows, with most modern locos the current demand isn't high. It also indicates that the short circuit protection should be at a fairly low current.
I agree with your use of short circuit protection in frogs - stop the trains if the track is set wrongly.
Any decent decoder (which includes ESU and Zimo) have CV settings for length of run time without DCC signal, so you can cause them to stop after a loss of power of, say, 1/4 second. So, the decoder will stop before falling off at the blades.
Thanks Nick... Good suggestions.
Great job as usual David and Charlie. I agree that the ambient load on the yard was suprisingly low, given how many consuming devices were parked there. Your "opposing forces" test was similarly interesting - but I can't help wondering if two locos slipping on shiny track is representative? It may be, but I would have preferred seeing the current pulled by a loco hauling a 6 or 8 coach train up a helix? Seeing the figures for that would be very interesting. Some great info in this edition - many thanks guys!
Hi Alan, It's no more on the helix. On the whole, current draw is light. The interesting thing I should have done was to "Stall" the loco by pressing down on it to stop the wheels turning and leaving the power on for say 2 seconds. If I get time I will report back on "stalled" motor load... From my experience that is the biggest current draw.
Good, interesting video. I've never used a frog juicer, but that has occurred to me about them, that they will allow a train to continue and possibly derail. Depends on the size of the layout how much of an issue it is, I suppose. But that's a clear argument why not to use them!
Glad you enjoyed it and its good to know we articulated the logic. Thanks for your feedback.
DCC Concepts also do a meter for voltage and current
Thanks John. I didn't know that.
I always find this project perplexing. It's home is in Practical Electronics, not model railways.....
Au contraire Bill. Running trains is what the mission is about. Come back in a year when we have finished the technical stuff and watch the operators living in Train heaven. Regards David
David, thanks for this video. I particularly liked the part about stopping locomotives running through points which are set against them. You mentioned that the points are not DCC controlled, but you seemed to control them from the same control unit as the loco. Thinking about the power consumption of your extensive layout, it would be interesting to know how much energy your complete set up consumes when working.
Hello Andrew. The whole layout was brought up last week for the first time in 2 years. It roughly consumes 2 kW which equates to about 60p per hour when turned on. So not as expensive as running a car.
With respect to points, we can control them from the throttles (which also drive the Locos on DCC) but we don't control them through the command station. There are Point control devices (such as a DS64 or a DAC20) attached to the same LocoNet bus that the throttle is attached to which see the switch instructions being sent from the throttles and act on them. Those switch commands are also received by the command station and sent out over DCC, but there is nothing on the DCC rails to act on them. It appears confusing, but it is quite straightforward. Regards David
@@dattouk Thanks for your reply. I was expecting a much higher consumption figure for your system taking into account the number of monitors and computers involved.
Another brilliant instalment. Can you share with us were you purchased you ‘pennies’ from? or did you manufacture them yourselves? Looking forward to the next episode.
We bought some pennies and got a friend to braze the together. We did start off with 50p pieces but they kept getting into peoples pockets.. Hence the logic...
Do you have circuit feedback to TrainController Software, where you can clear the a short via TC?
Is it possible to visit McKinley? We’re heading to the uk in September and I would love to see it in person!
Hi Rodney, We will be having open days, but we are not quite there yet. It will need to be in a year's time.
Instead of the "red penny" you could have put kill switches on the control boards for each circuit sector, or did hands-on experience shown that the operators got the wrong button to often?
Your logic could be done easily, but I am going to disagree with your thinking because.... Simple logic has to apply. The Operator sees the engine. He sees the track, He grabs the penny and put it there in front of the train. He have no time to think. We don't want to force the operator to try and work out where on the control panel is the relevant kill switch for that section of track.
Hello David
What is your opinion on hunt couplings ,i am considering using them on my southern mk1 coaches.
Regards George
Hi George, We have not worked with them. One of my friends who owns Bournemouth West swears they are the best, but we have not had time to evaluate them. I will have a look when we have finished building this beastie. Regards David
You may find you damage your models when you pick them up but also note in real life you don’t have a giant hand coming down from above to resolve a problem
... in real life you need a train bringing a hydraulic hoist and some men instead, the "hand of god" does a good underpayed job on model railways 😉
Hi Chris,
Yes exactly. Thats why we short the trains on the frog. Once the point direction has been corrected the loco will move again and the hand of god is not required.
Out of interest, how many watts of power does Mckinley use when all the possible trains are running with sound locos, all point motors and signals plus lighting etc. Over a 1000 watts maybe?
and more. The extension takes about 2kWh. We are about to switch both the old and the new on together and I would anticipate a full layout with all the above plus computers would be just over 3kWh (3000 Wh). So thats about 30 old 100W lightbulbs... Not quite in the Wembley Stadium category of consumption. David
@@dattouk That’s a heck of a lot of power for a model railway, very impressive. Thank you for answering my question.
@@dattouk Has the power company upgraded your electrical service yet ;) .. Love your videos .. clearly a lot of engineering thought.
if only there was a way to apply asynchronous track signal against every point.. then you could just use a brake mode to stop any train from running into a bad frog.. (even with stay alive!)..
Will we ever see a 24/7 live webcam feed
Ah... That is part of the cunning plan... Once we have built the darned thing...
@@dattouk it be nice if one day McKinley could be moved to a visitor attraction centre and clubs run for ages from there.