M90 BLOWER HORSEPOWER MYTHS! IS IT TOO SMALL? IS IT TOO HOT? CAN YOU RUN IT ON A BIGGER MOTOR?
Vložit
- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- HOW MUCH POWER CAN I MAKE WITH AN M90 BLOWER? HOW TO MAKE BIG POWER WITH AN M90 BLOWER. IS THE M90 TOO SMALL TO MAKE GOOD POWER? DOES THE M90 HEAT THE AIR TOO MUCH TO MAKE POWER? CAN I RUN THE M90 BLOWER ON A BIGGER MOTOR, LIKE A BIG BLOCK? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO FOR ALL THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS. I HAVE RUN THE M90 ON MANY COMBOS WITH GREAT SUCCESS AND FOUND THE POSSIBILITIES AND LIMITATIONS OF THE FACTORY EATON SUPERCHARGER. ALL YOUR ANSWERS ARE HERE.
M90 on a 454....yes please!!!
maybe two,
@@2ndsspz reminds me of the old MagnaCharger setup
Man, makes me miss my Regal GS. Everyone runs the same LS set up these days. Gets suuuuuuuuuper old.
so true. if a builder knows what they're doing, they can get oddballs and old school to match the average LS junkyard swap we see at a local cruise night. And the parts are cheap if you know how to hunt the internet.
Yes, regardless of an engine's size it's power output is directly related to the amount of air it can process.
The thought of an M-90 on a 454 has me thinking 🤔 Maybe this is the way I go instead of an LS motor with a turbo.
I’m not looking for high rpm’s, just low speed grunt with some get up and go when I want it in a 6,000lb truck with 33” or 35” tall tires (haven’t decided which yet).
Love everything you do sir! Keep up the awesome content
I think it all depends on what you are looking for, in terms of application. The M90 does open doors that were previously ignored. Imagine you want to tour the country, but don’t want to spend an absolute fortune on fuel, and a $70,000 truck. Go buy a 95 Chevy Extended cab dually, swap in a 5.3 with a 6l85 and M90. You could pull pretty much any trailer with that, and at least, on flat land, get pretty spectacular fuel mileage. And have the pulling power for the hills. Not super cheap, but dependable, serviceable, and MUCH cheaper than a newer truck that you would be devaluing the crap out of with all those miles. Maybe it’s just me though…. I’m not much of a conformist.
@@JasonMcCord-qk3yb there might have been a misunderstanding. I already have a truck, a 1978 3/4 4x4 that weighs 6,000lbs and put a 454 in it 15 years ago. I was thinking about going LS with a turbo for it, mainly for better fuel mileage. But an M-90 and fuel injection might change my mind.
I owed a 2002 dually with a 6.0l and it was nice and all, but wasn’t much better fuel wise when towing and definitely couldn’t do off-road like I do in the 78!
Love it or hate it, the M90 is still a tough little boost beast ! With little more than a 3.4” pulley and cold air induction, my L67 V-6 responded with a very noticeable increase in torque by blowing the tires off sooner and longer compared to stock trim 🏁
I remember when they told my 1.5l Ken e bell wouldn’t make more than 400 rwhp on my 4.64v yet here I am close to 600 rwhp the inlet restriction was the culprit on the early 96-98 cobra kenne bell kits. I re fabricated the inlet and boost went from 9 to 14 psi that was a huge restriction
600 whp with a 1.5L?
Yes sir I modified my inlet to flow approx double what the stick restrictive one could I tapped a vac gauge into the inlet and under wot I was showing 2 in/hg so it was pretty restrictive. I also added a bypass and 2 water alcohol nozzles pre and post rotors
Originally made 517 rwhp after I did the mod to 550 rwhp is what it made recently on a cool day and I changed my exhaust from full 2.5 inch to 3 inch dumps and full crank case -10an catch can breather set up to vent the crank case
Before I did the mod I was making 9psi after opening the inlet with the same pulley it made 12-13psi I then went from the 2.5 to a 2.25 pulley spinning it to 19000 or so rpm making 14-15 psi car went from 410rwhp on 9psi to now 550 on 14psi
@@eddiearchuleta615 good to hear, I bought a used KB 4.6 2v kit and the 1.7 was seized (literally could not have had a smaller pulley!), picked up a 1.5 unit (interestingly the case is ~2" longer but width and height are the same!) and hoped it would work fine. I do have an intercooler and by pass so sounds like my 400whp goal is no sweat! I probably have $1700 in the kit and the 1.5 rotors look to be freshly coated.. might be a 2.2 I have not contacted KB to see if they converted it but it doesn't have the right outlet flange bolt count i've read about.
How did you plumb meth-nozzles post rotors?
Could you put an m90 blower onto a 4200? If so I would absolutely love to see how and what kind of gains could be made. I think it could be an amazingly cheap and fun junkyard option. Although I think a centrifugal supercharger on a 4200 would be the holy grail of power, fun, and reliability.
M90 on a 4.3
I'd like to see the M90 tested on the 5.9 Magnum. We kind of know what to expect, but I think it would still be fun.
thanks you for super high quality contents 👍🏻
Hey I have a great video idea for you! Do a video on “torque boosters”, adding a wastegate to control a centrifugal blower. Do tests like different WG sizes 38/40/45/50mm. Difference in boost curves compared to a normal pulley combo. Adding the WG before or after the intercooler.
WG size plays not part unless it can't flow enough to limit desired boost, waste gates on a centrifugal only help because of the change in pulley size to speed up the blower, position of the WG changes very little on a cent blower application
@@richardholdener1727I think it could be a great topic to cover, can’t find hardly any info on it let alone the things I mentioned. Show dyno dyno graphs with and without. Pros/cons ect.
I problem I have with this video is most of these stated issues are not myths. Just quickly looking at the M90's compressor efficiency map shows that this super charger is indeed designed to operate most efficiently at relatively low mass flow rates. To get this thing to work at the ~650hp range you're trading over 17% compressor efficiency, which is expressed largely as heat, an awful lot of heat and wasted shaft power. Also, likely running the m90 at its max operating RPM. It works sure, but in every regard its far from ideal. Considering the time, money and effort to install and tune this setup its nothing more than a meme IMO.
The problem you have with the video has nothing to do with actual data. There is very little heat generated running just 5.5 psi at 650 hp, since pressure is what primarily determines the IATs. We had sub 100-degree temps exiting the intercooler. When you go looking to make max power with any blower-this is how and where you run them.
Myth - a widely held but false belief or idea
As he just proved, Myth - BUSTED!
the best part is the torque increase.
He needs to put an M90 on the TPI intake. He already has one that he cut a hole in for the 4 barrel tune port test.
I'd like to see what the SC14, you can buy one new for like $300 and its the same size as the m90
I'd really love to put one of these on a crown Victoria 4.6 2v or a 99 ranger 4.0 ohv v6!
I REALLY REALLY want to see someone run one of these on a Pentastar.
Richard I always tell you I want to adapt my Eaton supercharger M90 on a 2.3 l Lima engine that they put in a Ford Pintos
Great video, lots of words though, my question is how much power will thus add to my stock 2012 silverado.
So what your telling is that when my mates are saying forget about a junkyard m90, it's useless, they are as silly as I was thinking when I heard them say that? lol.
Maybe one would be fun on my little GMH 253ci v8 after all.
it can work on a lot of combos
Put one on a 6.8l v10 😊
Two!
Still waiting on the m90 of a 2v non pi 4.6 video 👀 why doesn't anyone make a manifold for this 😭
Here's another one I thought about. A Japanese V8! How about the VK 56?
The UZ Toyota engines often had m90 superchargers, or maybe it was m112s. Either would work great
Been trying to find an M90 off of a jag with the short snout for me 3.0 bmw E46,
Great video
How about that same supercharger on a "destroyed" 400 SBC?? Let's say a 372, 377, or a 352 (400 with a 327 crank).
I'm curious to see what the M90 does on a motor that's smaller but more efficient than the 3800. Like maybe a K24, or a J-series V6.
A J35 with an m90 is super intriguing.
The cte (comptech) super chargers kits for the k24 were "eaton" based and were good for 300-350whp more with appropriate mods.
There are a bunch of videos of jseries with m90's as well.
just did this to mine. j32a2 with gen 5 m90. all motor made 230hp and 225tq to the wheels. after blower it made 311hp and 272tq at 9psi to the wheels
I like this video.
In a future video could you try an asymmetrical turbo setup on the 3800 or 4.3 V6 like Saab used on the 9-5. I have always been curious what the dyno results would be for such a setup.
I tried that on a BBC once
@@richardholdener1727 Is there a video on that? What were the results?
Dual M90’s!!! Haha, it would be cool to see but probably not very effective.
Agree with most of this with one caveat. The idea that putting it on a bigger motor is even better (less boost, more efficiency, less heating) works until you reach a blower speed limit. This M90 on a 492 for example, would have to spin 3x engine speed just to break into positive manifold pressure at WOT. At 6500 rpm engine speed you're already near 20k rpm blower speed and I'd wager you would be hard pressed to see gains spinning much faster. For PD blowers I like to see engine to blower displacement ratios in the 2:1-3:1 range. OEMs have and do go higher (LT4 is 3.65 and the LSA is 3.25) but they're usually more concerned about low end fill. Ford and Dodge are down in the 1.9-2.3 range and they have 1000+ hp potential on the stock blowers.
TO MEA, THE 492 DISPLACEMENT MEANS NOTHING-ONLY THE POWER OUTPUT-A 492 MIGHT ONLY MAKE 1 HP PER INCH-THE M90 WOULD ADD POWER TO THAT. AN NA 492 MAKING 2 HP PER WOULD NOT BE A GOOD APPLICATION
@@richardholdener1727 Acknowledged and agreed. But realistically anyone making 500 hp on a 492 would be better off putting a decent cam and long tubes on it and getting 600+ vs. trying to squeeze that out of a tiny blower, right? The bigger the motor, you should be thinking bigger blower - even if the smaller blower can make similar power.
id like to try one on my Boxster see what it does i think the sound would be frikkin awesome.... er
I want to see a M122 go though all these tests. Even remote mounted with a air to air intercooler. They are still fairly cheap considering.
We never see any M112s at the yards, but see many M90s. That's why we chose the M90, cuz they are cheap and available.
@richardholdener1727 If I run into a cheap one I'll send it to you. There was one for 250 not long ago. I was going to run one on my efi 460 then I found a old vortech kit for cheap and went that route. I enjoy all your videos! Even the tech talks. We appreciate your hard work.
@richardholdener1727 there r a few m112 on ebay now for under $400. I'm wanting to put an m112 on my 388 sbc.
I love my m90 on my 04 Dale Jr Monte Carlo SS L67 3800
Used to call them hair dryers on my Thunderbirds
A crazy gearhead I met as a teenager called them that too. He had a 40HP Mercury outboard, with a (unknown to me) sized turbo on the side, he figured it was making about 250 or so hp, was on a 7ft long plywood hydroplane. Nuts, completely insane.
AWSOME video
Hey Richard! Did you ever get your SC truck running right?
Could you put the m112 on a 3800? I'm wanting to swap my fiero and curious what benefit it will make
I believe it was made for the 3800.
the old regal supercharger
In the 3800 community a m112 swap has been done. I believe the consensus was for the cost/effort turbo was a better option.
No, only the m62 and m90, the 112 was the Mustang unit. @@johnsheetz6639
Used to do a rotor swap with a case spacer to make use of the stock manifold. It wasn't pretty but they work
I wish I was ready to do an upgrade my supercharger on my 04 Lightning, just waiting on parts, I’d love to send you my m112 for free, to see what you would get out of it. Bought it new less than 40k on the odometer.
Hey Rich… I had a sbc 383 built in a 1991 Camaro with a Holley 650 with vortex 202 heads. I was told it made 450-500 hp but it feels like less than the 305 that it replaces. Please advise.
Not sure what I can say about a motor I have never seen and don't know the specs or tune on
My shop teacher has a m90 on a sbc I think a 305 or 350
Could you put it on a 10:1 compression ratio small block Chevy 350
YES
Hey Richard, there has been rumors around that they’re no longer filming engine masters. Do you have any insight whether that’s true and if so what’s the reason? Thanks!
no more EMC
Whatever ended up being the problem with the 5.3 that wouldn't perform well on the dyno with this M90 blower IIRC.
TMING AND BLOWER SPEED WAS THE ISSUE ON THE ORIGINAL TEST ON THE ENGINE DYNO
So, if you’re looking to cool the air through the intake, could you fabricate a intake system utilizing an AC pump so that the cold air is introduced to the intake, or would the cost of turning the AC pump negate any gain? Just thinking out of the box.
that has been done
Look up "Interchiller", that's essentially what you've described
You can put a bigger impeller in it and make some good numbers
It would interesting to see testing same manufacturer blower (Eg Kenne Bell) with different sizes 2.1, 2.6, 3.2 how it affects boost curve, IATS and horsepower
Hello Richard, I have a question. I have 550 lift valve springs and recently upgraded to another camshaft with a 595 lift would I need to replace the 550 lift springs for some 600 lift? Thank you
yes-needs the right springs
when are you doing the big bang
So if you put the M90 on a 650hp n/a motor, that should be at the maximum airflow of the M90 and we should see no boost and no hp gain? Right?
SINCE WE SEE 5.5 PSI AT 650 HP, WE WOULD STILL SEE MORE THAN NA POWER
So what’s the maximum airflow of the M90?
Put it on a 750hp BBC and see if 0 boost and no power loss?
I just got my truck Norris cam in for my 6.0, what heads would you recommend I go with?
works with any heads
Richard if you don't mind I've sifted through the 5.0 videos here and other CZcams videos and I'm still not sure, at the moment I'm installing an explorer intake and new shorty headers I'm contemplating a cam upgrade while it's apart, I have a stock 95 HO 5 speed what cam would you install now that will work good with just the intake and shortys but will work well with a future head upgrade like afr 165s or the new SVE 170s. 2.73 gears now but switching to 3.55s, it's my warm weather daily and just want more more than the underwhelming 215hp while still having decent drivability. I have had several cammed daily drivers in the past so that's not an issue. Any input would be appreciated.
I like the Comp XE274HR, but others work-Summit has some and Anderson Motorsports
@@richardholdener1727that seems to be the hot ticket, not to keep bothering you also do you know of any Howards factory rollers that work good?
Hey Richard, what do you think the differences of bolting a gen 3 m90 vs a gen v?
no sure exact difference in power from each
I'm still waiting on the m90 play adapter to become available
Nothing wrong with a Super Richie style setup with basically just plates and a drill/hacksaw
the m90 plate adapter is available. you need a holley hi/med/lo ram lower intake.
adapter plate is available
You can buy an mpx case which is a much more simple outlet flange (4 bolt square) and it flows great
Tom demuese makes the adapters for the lo/hi ram I bought one from him yesterday
It would put a big boost on my Sirocco
Use two.
I have to say, I really want to see two of these on the same intake! Maybe at the “10 and 2” positions?
@@JasonMcCord-qk3yb I was half joking, but there was a guy on YT that did it a few years ago. I think it was on a 351W. I can't remember the guy's name. I think he quit his channel.
@@JasonMcCord-qk3yb I looked it up, his channel is "Junkyard Doggs". It's kind of cobbled together and he quit his channel before he finished but you can get a look at what it would look like.
We need a dual m90 454 on a dyno.
can you do a video like this for the Eaton M112. I can't find where u did any videos on the M112
those are harder to find and more expensive than the M90
@richardholdener1727 ebay has a couple listed for around $300 currently. recently scooped one of them up
Is there any way to figure out the pulley ratio for a certain boost amount, like 7-9 on a 420 inch engine? And I’m going from a v belt to a serpentine belt via a jack shaft somewhere in the middle so there’s plenty of room for adjustment.
how much power are you trying to make
@@richardholdener1727 it’s currently making about 180 hp and 330 trq. Would be nice if I could get another 80-100 hp
I'm still waiting for the 3800 big bang lol
What was the problem with your truck with a m 90 ? It didn’t make power
ground and knock sensors
I still think the TVs 1320 would be a better option than the m90 it’s a little bigger and more efficient at higher rpm’s and can be had for the same price as an m90
WHERE CAN YOU GET A TVS FOR JUNKYARD M90 MONEY?
@@richardholdener1727 as well as the jaguar 3.0 is a TVS 1320 and is much easier after the lid and manifold are removed they run about $300 however require less fabrication work and can use just a simple plate like the one from the 5.0
Next video: Amazon AMR supercharger in a 8.0L Magnum V10.
150 hp blower
Those blowers were normally made for V6 applications. On a small ci V8 such as a 283 Chevy, it might add a little power. For larger V8s, you'd need two M90s; one for each cylinder bank. They simply do not pump enough air.
we made 650 hp with 1
Im trying to get Accufab to make me a custom 3 bolt LS1 TB. I have a 75mm one now but bought a 85mm Holley for my m90.
You can buy a 92mm with adapter plate for less than $100.
@commonsenseisdeadin2024 already have an adapter plate
@@jplperformance9073 then why have Accufab make you a custom throttle body? What size is the opening on the m90? I can't imagine there's much benefit over 85mm ESPECIALLY if you're not running an elbow off the inlet.
If the adapter "necks" down (or is beveled) then it can easily and cheaply be CNC'd by a machine shop to bore it out. Don't get me wrong, I love Accufab and everything John Mihovetz has done for the Modular platform.
Does the blowet have less loss on the v8 because of the boost difference and how much do you think
LESS LOSS?
@richardholdener1727 the amount of power it takes to run the supercharger
It does not take less loss on a bigger engine. Relatively to the power of the engine, sure it would consume less of the engines total power than the v6, but it still takes the same amount of power to turn the supercharger, regardless of engine. Does that make sense?
@@colin2750 well compressing aire to 15 psi probably takes more power than compressing air to 1 psi so I'm not sure you are correct it might not be a big difference but it should be something
How would I be able to use one on a sbc 350? What all would be needed?
adapters
Could possibly point me in the right direction?
How does it go on a smaller engine, say a 120ci straight six?
the blower doesn't know displacement-it knows na flow vs blower flow. Spin the blower at the correct rpm and it will work fine on the 120 ci six
@richardholdener1727 yes, so obviously it will simply have to spin slower, I only reference displacement as an indication of NA airflow.
Can you put a clutch or similar onto a supercharger in order to run NA at low throttle but initiate boost at a preferred rpm?
Guys have been wanting that since seeing "The Road Warrior" (aka Mad Max) in the early 80's... Highly recommended for any car guy who hasn't already seen it!
Toyota did it with the 4agze and 1ggze from factory never seen a aftermarket blower setup.
The m90 has a built in bypass flap that is externally controlled with a vacuum pod. On the factory 3800 the engine is only actually getting boost at WOT when the vacuum is gone and the flap closes. I’ve been trying to figure out how to make it work with a electric actuator or something like that
@@dieselhiboy72 look into turbo smart e gates. You should be able to use one in your m90 application should be able to directly control from the ECU. You would have to remove the exhaust section of the egate and attach the pivot arm to the flapper in the blower. Not sure but turbo smart may have a internal wastegate actuator that would make life easier
Do they make the intake adapter it run a M90 on a Ls3? Or did you make the adapter?
the adapters are available from Demuse Engineering to work with a Hi ram or Low Ram on the LS3
Awesome!!!!! Thank you sir!!!!!
How much power can it make on a k24 Honda ?????
if flows enough to support over 650 hp, if you have enough power to start with from the K24
Didn't you basically create these myths in your original video corking the engine?
corking?
@@richardholdener1727 ya. You said it restricted the engine. Cork=restrictor
Can you run it draw through carb?
see the carb M90 vids
nothing physicly stopping you. pushing it way outside its efficiency envelope with more speed is going to make low density hot air, still gonna get a boost number but not the power. engines don't run on pressure psi but air density lb/ft^3. air density takes into account everything including tempature and you can compare supercharger sizes and everything directly without being wacky about it.
WE RAN AT JUST 5.5 PSI AND AN IAT OF 84 DEGREES. THE HEAT COMES FROM BOOST-THAT WAS IN THE VIDEO
@@richardholdener1727 dam man dont need to yell im right here. whats your ambient air temp and pressure thats going into the supercharger. have to know what the supercharger is actually doing. with that data you can get the air density change across the blower.
with these numbers you can compare it with anything, bigger blowers, turbos even intake systems on na, nomatter the wether or temperature. hp and engine combinations turn from a dark art of seems about right and experience to something you can calculate and optimise.
Will a centrifigul blower sized for a 4cyl K series engine make 500hp on an LS motor?
blowers are not sized for displacement or cylinders, they are sized for flow and output
What happened to the Big bang?!
coming
Can't wait lol. 👍🏽
@@richardholdener1727 I'll have to review the videos again but it seemed to me that the compound setup had less power than just a turbo setup... Over 600 horsepower with a turbo but only high 400s with a compound at significantly higher boost levels? 🤔 hmmm
I work in finance, but I'm considering a career change for my midlife crisis to engine building lol... I find your videos extremely informative/educational thank you! Let me know if you're looking for an apprentice lol.
I wonder if you could add an interchiller to this combination? Using cold air from the air conditioning unit... Maybe the colder air temperatures could help offset the parasitic drag of having an air conditioning pulley in the system...🤷🏽... I can't wait for the Big bang i would build the bottom end up and and dial the turbo all the way up with e85... And nitrous with an interchiller... Could you do a value analysis relative to a 2JZ motor?
If only these were compatible with magnum/hemi
they would be with adapters
@@richardholdener1727 would you know of any company that makes them or will this be custom
I am about to take my m90 off my supercoupe its been modified and rebuilt by magnum power if anyone is interested in let me know im going to do a turbo swap
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP
the next time you post anything political-you get booted
hear me out m90 on 8.1
IT WOULD WORK
so... can you do something stupid with these m90's and like... stick it on a chevy I4 from like a chevy sonic ? or cruze ?
Not stupid if it works
yes
I know that a few guys have put them on 2 or 2.5l Subaru 4 cylinder. Not sure how they went though.
Keep in mind... Thats a 200$ blower..
I've never paid $200 for the M90-usually 1/2 that
@@richardholdener1727 oh sorry, that's in canadian monopoly moneys!
Stop using the same colors for different configurations on your graphs!!!
can't
still too small
Or maybe she's just too big
@Crownvictorialifestyle
Well we could get Tom D to make an intake to put an M90 on LS engines, talked to him last week about tossing a 6-71 on one of my 6.0s.. Now what I want to know is how well a 6-71 will work on a 505ci Pontiac making around 700-730 between 6000 and 6500 NA.
Oh yeah Tom D and I are friends up here in Michigan. Gonna put a hurtin on his Sonoma/S10 at the Fun Run dyno day.
THERE IS A 6/71 LOWER INTAKE AVAIL FOR THE LS ALREADY-I HAVE A VID UP ON IT
@@richardholdener1727 yeah, its Tom's, right?
I have a 6-71 and can't get past the fact you have to spin the heck out of the M90 OR IT BECOMES A CHOKE POINT