SpaceX Starship - How will Starship tank autogenous pressurization systems work?
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
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Today we’re going to take a close look into how SpaceX manages Starship pressurization and engine startups. We’ll also peer into the past to see where those solutions were used in the previous generation of launchers. Thank you very much to the amazing Corey who has been a big support to us in the making of this video. Follow him on Twitter ( / c_bass3d ) and CZcams ( / cbassproductions ) for a lot more greatness.
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I feel blessed to live in a world where this type of content is free. Thank you Marcus for your hard work and dedication.
Glad you enjoy it!
Agreed, I love this stuff. Everyday astronaut has a lot of good stuff on this subject as well.
Do you know just this morning I was wondering how the autogenous pressurisation system on starship would work! Great video Marcus fantastic!
Thanks Mark! :)
Marcus is telepathic. You didn't Know?
Funny if a joke. If true keep asking questions.
@@cbrucesbiz it’s true
That happens. I once asked Scott Manley a question and the very next day here comes an episode all about it.
I've been saying this since SN8 now, glad to have an audience for this!
My idea is to combine the COPV and autogenous pressurisation system into one.
If the COPVs are already being used to spin up the preburner turbines then they're clearly already plumbed into this system so no extensive works will be required for this.
At present, and if I understand it correctly, once the first engine start is done, the COPVs for this are essentially useless.
My idea is as follows:
1. Once the first engine start is done, shut off a valve between the COPV and the preburner turbine.
2. During engine burn, open a valve between the autogenous pressurisation pipelines and the COPVs.
3. Repressurise the COPVs with gaseous oxygen or methane.
4. Once at desired pressure, shut off the valve.
5. At next engine start, open the valves from the COPVs to the preburner turbine to spin up
6. Open another valve to give that initial burst of pressure to pressurise the tanks.
7. Repeat.
Just my thoughts as a lowly maintenance engineer with a fair amount of experience on hydraulic and pneumatic systems. Happy to be ignored or corrected :)
And by the way, excellent video Marcus, thanks for dropping it on a Tuesday to break up the week!
Marcus, you have a gift of explaining complicated concepts in a way that is easy to understand, and is comprehensive at the same time. We are so thankful to have you.
Yes, good point!
That was one of your best episodes ever - that had to be an amazing amount of research.
Thank you Clem Rock!
@@MarcusHouse Clem.... you! Rock! Spot on... I agree.
+1; it was mind blowing and I had to pause a few times.
Sorry, I know you're addressing somebody else. But the autogenous pressure system would weigh less. That's one of its major advantages. You don't need to carry extra helium or nitrogen, you can just use your fuel twice: once to keep the tanks pressurized, and once more to make the rocket go.
4 AM in the Seattle area and I'm treated to a Marcus House video while doing my early morning work. What could be more fun?
2 Marcus House videos?🤪
You live in Seattle? I’m sorry
You are doing housework at 4am?! I’m sorry! :-D
I'm in Seattle too! But I'm unconscious at 4 am!
@@xiaoka I start work at 3:30 AM and end the day around 1 PM. That's my work shift, so I get up even earlier to get to work in Seattle.
I keep saying it but the animations are fantastic! Keep it up!
You can thank Corey (CBass) for much of this one. Incredible work he does and it is most appreciated. Links in the description.
Yes. They keep reminding me of just how the raptor engines work and how far advanced we've come from when I was a boy and people were trying to design _liquid_ spray mixing.
Full flow has done away with all the mystery (at the expense of incredible sophistication): propellant and oxidizer are a... _gas_ ; so much simpler.
good!
Wait what!? Bonus Content? I'll take it. Thanks mate..
"Just Listen to that roar of the engine ..."
- talks over the clip
Seriously though, this an excellent show. Subscribed. Thanks!
Graphics used to show the details + context and background = the best Marcus House video. A home run!!!
Well done video, thanks for taking a deep dive instead of the regular news videos!
To keep the pressure, just put a catalytic membrane between the ox and CH3 tanks. The slow burn (size dependent) would produce heat and gasses to keep both pressurized. But what if the problem in SN 9 was not pressure, but big bubbles in the supply lines to the engines? What the starship does, the others in your examples do not do, is flop down on it's side. Bubbles cause huge swings in ratios and boom, a piece of the engine goes flying out the bottom, and the engine will not light - because it is damaged. This is not an easy problem to fix.
This is a problem they've calculated in from the start and it's the reason why they use header tanks.
If there's enough pressure in them there won't be any bubbles.
@@AdelaeR That is a fallacy. As long as there is headroom in the tank, there can be bubbles. And there has to be headroom in the tank if it is pressurized with a gas. If there is no head room, the fuel cannot leave the rigid tank. As soon as the nose goes horizontal or below, fuel can flow "up" out of the feed pipes, replaced with vapor.
Great video Marcus, really informative, quality of your videos are getting better all the time
Wow @that shot of Space Shuttle main booster tank!
I know right! I'd never seen it before either until it was edited in.
i had not seen before
If all this was simple, another one would already done it. Finger-crossed for spacex!
Your posts always have great audio. very clear, the right volume and no visible mic. Great job.
Just got off online school for lunch and I see this. Love the videos!
Ayy
I just woke up
I have online school
@@fosteragbor4545 lucky..
Just off to bed :) zzzzz
This is all that is keeping me going during lockdown lmao, safe to say I have an obsession with watching spacex content :)
Those animations I could watch all day😍
Cheers for the great content Marcus!
The Viking engine from the Ariane 1 through 4 used autogenous pressurisation as well, but had a stoichiometric combustion of NTO and UDMH in the preburner, which was cooled with the injection of water from a third tank. The inert exhaust meant that they could use it for pressurizing both NTO and DMH tank and use the pressurized liquid water from the water turbo pump as a hydraulic fluid. Pretty impressive for an engine developed in the 60s and 70s.
100% impressive. When taking a deeper dive into this, it is quite amazing to see the evolution from early vessels right up to the Starship, SLS, and other rockets. Long-duration missions are a different story however and that is something that will require active cooling (perhaps heat exchanging) systems to keep that pressure correct.
Wow!! This video is AMAZING MARCUS!! 👍🏽
Must admit, this was one of your best videos yet. Like that you're going into details!
I already got chills 5 second in. That animation is incredible!!
On review of SN8's attempted landing, compared to that of SN9's, it wasn't that far off landing, just going a tad too fast ;) Fingers crossed for SN10 🙏🙏🙏
Still kind of hoping we'll see it this week even though static fire was aborted yesterday. Fingers crossed for today.
@@MarcusHouse I’ve learned not to keep my hopes up too high. Not because of SpaceX’s development speed, they’re doing amazing. But it’s prototype testing, and we can’t control the weather or the FAA, so I’ve learned to be realistic. It’s really easy to get caught up in the speed at which SpaceX is moving, so one must take a step back.
@@MarcusHouse Elon wouldn’t miss the chance especially now the FAA approved. SpaceX and them seem to be tight with communications.
@@jazzylev
We can’t control the FAA but SpaceX can now. They must have figured it out with them, with confirmation yesterday that they approved the SN10 launch already.
A perfect test flight is one that teaches new lessons, regardless of how many pieces it ends up in. But, of course, it's easier to learn from an intact rocket.
MARCUS: -- Another "Out-of-the-Park" episode! I would conclude that the "Autogenous Pressurization" method is the way to go.
Slow down your speech. Give the content time to soak.
@@matthewerwin4677 Just hit setting & adjust playback speed. I usually go with 1.25x & slow things down during the 'good' stuff. Also, content providers often have to accelerate playback to compress their points into reasonable time frames.
Love the detail in this video, fantastic graphics to go with it .top marks, great stuff,😁😆😉🧐😇👍
A video during the week? I must be dreaming!
Keep up the incredible work
What a pleasant surprise! Thanks, Marcus and team!
Marcus, I say get rid of the header tanks and replace them with baffles inside the CH4 and O2 tanks so that the main tanks are effectively segmented into chambers, with the aft segment having the volume which corresponds to the amount of fuel needed for the landing burn. Tanker trucks use baffles to prevent the problem of sloshing liquid causing structural damage. Baffles in the main tanks would add structural integrity, and during main engine operation, acceleration would push fuel toward the back of the rocket, and would cause the chambers to drain from one to the next, so that the aft chamber is the last chamber which contains fuel, and which would have no gas-state reactants, and therefore no sloshing problem, and no cavitation problem. Pressurize at the top/front, and draw fuel from the bottom/rear. No sloshing and no cavitation. The baffle could be sealed using a valve. We know that mechanical operations occur inside tanks, because that became an issue with Apollo 13. The only problem right now with my suggestion is that the header tanks seem to be needed at the top of the rocket right now, for balancing the weight distribution. That need is temporary. The function of the header tank, other than weight distribution, can be accomplished with a baffle and a valve which would add structural integrity without adding net weight. SpaceX should be adding dead weight at the top of the rocket anyway, rather than balancing weight distribution by putting a header tank there which will need to be moved eventually anyway. But your post was about pressurization and not about ullage wasn't it. Excuse my rant.
The 2nd purpose of the pressurization is to "push fuel down into the bottom of the tanks".. erm, which way is down in Space? Even with gravity, surely the pressurization won't push the fuel anywhere other than through an attached header if it is already full of fuel. Great episode btw.
Look up ullage systems. They use a tiny amount of RCS to push all fluids down. Then fire the engines up.
@@MarcusHouse That's great. What devices are used for RCS to provide longitudinal force? The lunar SS has thrusters halfway up the sides of the rocket doesn't it?
One of the best videos from Markus I've ever seen. Thanks, man!
Keep up the good work Marcus, always excited when you post a video with such great content
You explain it better than anyone else Marcus.
Answered so many questions i had about starship operations! Top notch video dude!!
Some incredible footage in this video. From the falling shuttle boosters to the Gemini astronaut dangling around in space, this was a visual treat as much as it was an educational one.
Brilliant description Marcus. I didn’t fully understand autogenous pressurization until now! 🙏
Hi Marcus, I have to say.. your content is improving at a rate usually only usually seen with spacex 😅 Good work! This video was great. I'm glad you are keeping your same personality through it all aswell.
I 'usually' don't use the word 'usually' that often. 😅
Great video Marcus, keep up the great work!
Great work Marcus! Love how you give credit to others. Keep it up!
I live in Waco and I routinely hear the rumble from Spacex testing the rockets in McGregor. Incredible video!
The engine fuel and oxygen flow renders are superb!!! Another fantastic episode!
Thanks, this is your best video to date!
Improving Autogenous is the key.
yay for midweek! Really enjoyed this episode
Marcus what a truly informative video 😁🚀😁 love watching your productions as I’m wanting to watch them the whole way through 👍🏼👍🏼keep up the gd work.
Great video! Love the history including the ET separation footage.
Amazing production, answered so many questions I’ve had, thanks Marcus!
Ooo! Nice dive, Marcus! I really liked your step by step explanation as well as the historical remarks. It's always cool to remember that great achievements took place even at a very early stage of spaceflight, and also that current engineers can stand on developments made by those from the past, and so reach even higher! Thank you for this video!!
Loved the technical & graphics.
The excitement rises day by day! So ready to see her fly :D
Awsome video! I loved to watch it and learned really much new things i didn´t know before.
Best wishes from Austria, can´t wait to see your next Video :-)
Had to watch this again instead of live feed to get pumped up. Thanks @marcushouse
Great video Marcus.
Really Well produced show - Thanks
Fantastic video and dive into the autogenous pressurisation method. Best I've seen.
Great work Marcus. 👏👍
I am glad I found this channel! Solid work!
Even though it hurts my head, but I love these engineering marvel.
Keep at it long enough and that pain in you head gets replaced with understanding. Then you can really light the fire. Hope it happens to you early enough in life to be of some use to you.
@@jcoghill2 thank you, I'm 47
Captivated! Ended too soon! Thanks Marcus!
Where would we be without that ca. 1988 all purpose synthesized BGM track? Out of all the channels that cover this material, I think this one nails it. Gives the series almost a classic Space Shuttle flavor.
I’m an undergrad Engineering Student and watching this confirms that this is want I want to do. Cheers Marcus 👍
I didn't think I was going to watch this whole video (pressurization? yawn...), but it was quite compelling. Really well done! I can't believe I ignored something so fundamental and important. I feel a whole lot more informed now, thank you!
Thank you for this video! I was wondering how it all worked.
Your explanation sounds logic and professional. Thanks for sharing
Hey Hey thank you Marcus, as always awesome graphics and brilliant narration. Reminds me of the days when we waited for popular mechanics to hit the shelves.
Very cool insides! Thanks a lot Marcus! 👌👍😊
Wow! Thanks for this insight!
Well done, Marcus! Thank-you.
Brilliant video... great animations to explaining pressurization. Does seem like AP the way to go... always wondered exactly what the external pipes were for on the outside of starship and why they weren't on F9.. Had never noticed them on the shuttles fuel tank. Fascinating and thank you.
Tim Dodd watched this with a confused Pikachu face...'how did you make a video about rockets and be less than an hour long?'
Kidding obviously, love this and Tim's long form vids, actually I wished this was a bit longer. Tim, what have you done to me? :)
A great breakdown, thanks Marcus!!
I had never seen that clip of the Shuttle external tank after separation... very interesting.
Super cool huh! We hadn't seen it either.
So glad to hear these things. WAY beyond what I understand but glad to know.
Very informative, thank you
This is a fantastic look at the engineering involved and it's lineage.
I learned a lot from that, thank you, Marcus.
Thank you, The problem was good explained. I hope that autogenous pressurization systems will be used all along, so there'll be no need to get helium or nitrogen somewhere near.
Those renders are amazing, blender is stepping it up with simultaneous gas and fluid sim
Great video. Outstanding quality.
Thank you kindly!
Great vid Marcus!
Those animations are ridiculous! 👏
I love those engine renderings! My guess is they will need to move the methane header tank down a little so that it’s not directly in contact with all the liquid methane sitting above it. I suspect they are losing a bunch of heat through the top wall of the methane header tank. Or maybe they can just crank up the gas flow to compensate.
That's exactly my thoughts.
The hot gas has a one-way ticket to being absorbed into the cold liquid, removing the all important gas pressure.
The methane needs to be at its boiling point in the header tank. Perhaps some insulation around the header tanks would help and crank up the gas flow from the engines as you suggest. 👊
Hey Hey Marcus, thank you very much for these fantastic videos.
Lovely video as always keep up the great work!
Very cool info and graphics too! Just think maybe someday SpaceX will figure out warp drive technology. If anyone can it’s going to be SpaceX!! 🚀🚀
I asked a few random people if they had any knowledge about SpaceX while wearing one of my custom DWD designed shirts, and only 50% had knowledge of X. As it was depressing, at the end of the conversation, I sold a shirt and continuously get responses for updates, and more orders.
We need to educate the public about how serious this is, and advertise Marcus House, Everyday Astronaut, etc.. it’s our future to save this sick, twisted world, that is taken for granted.
We all as a community can boost the knowledge by word and proof that there will be multi planetary life for us. We just need to boost the confidence, knowledge, reading material, videos, clothing, etc.
Thanks again Marcus for another wonderful great video! And I hope to maybe one day get to chat with u about the race to space, (probably going to be a long conversation, lol).
Thanks again! And for the Moon and Mars, Here We Come!!! 🍀
Dang!! LOVE THE SEE THROUGH!!
Well done Marcus this is still relevant today! 👍
classy editing well done.
:D
Wow awesome video Marcus. I learnt a fair bit today,
3 and a half minutes in, already gotta say great work!!! Learned a lot and everything is really high quality!
Thanks!
wow, that was very interesting
Great engineering video, well presented 👍
Very interesting content!! Thank you!!
Marcus, you are amazing. Thanks for your awesome content.
Enjoyed this video Marcus.
Great video, excellent animations...
Doesn't get any better than this video.
Great video. Thanks
Absolutely awesome video!! Thanks.
love the models/animations