SpaceX Starship - How will Starship tank autogenous pressurization systems work?
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- The first 200 get 20% off the annual Brilliant subscription! brilliant.org/MarcusHouse/
Today we’re going to take a close look into how SpaceX manages Starship pressurization and engine startups. We’ll also peer into the past to see where those solutions were used in the previous generation of launchers. Thank you very much to the amazing Corey who has been a big support to us in the making of this video. Follow him on Twitter ( / c_bass3d ) and CZcams ( / cbassproductions ) for a lot more greatness.
Info on Sabatier reaction and orbital refilling
• Starship Refilling in ...
Support me on:
Patreon - / marcushouse
Join my Discord - / discord
Follow on Twitter - / marcushouse
Support from the below is always massively appreciated:
The production crew - Brenton Myers, Brendan Lewis, Artzius, GameplayReviewUK
NASASpaceFlight - / @nasaspaceflight
BocaChicaGal - / bocachicagal
RGVAerialPhotography - / rgvaerialphotography
LabPadre - / @labpadre
Greg Scott - Photographer - / gregscott_photo
3D artist magicians:
✨ Erc X - / ercxspace
✨ Corey - / c_bass3d
✨ Neopork - / neopork85
✨ Tony Bela - / infographictony
✨ DeepSpaceCourier - / ds_courier
✨ SpaceXvision - / spacexvision
✨ Stanley Creative - / caspar_stanley
✨ Kimi Talvitie - / kimitalvitie
Music:
Deliberate Thought by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (creativecommons.org/licenses/...)
Source: incompetech.com/music/royalty-... incompetech.com/ - Věda a technologie
I feel blessed to live in a world where this type of content is free. Thank you Marcus for your hard work and dedication.
Glad you enjoy it!
Agreed, I love this stuff. Everyday astronaut has a lot of good stuff on this subject as well.
Do you know just this morning I was wondering how the autogenous pressurisation system on starship would work! Great video Marcus fantastic!
Thanks Mark! :)
Marcus is telepathic. You didn't Know?
Funny if a joke. If true keep asking questions.
@@cbrucesbiz it’s true
That happens. I once asked Scott Manley a question and the very next day here comes an episode all about it.
I've been saying this since SN8 now, glad to have an audience for this!
My idea is to combine the COPV and autogenous pressurisation system into one.
If the COPVs are already being used to spin up the preburner turbines then they're clearly already plumbed into this system so no extensive works will be required for this.
At present, and if I understand it correctly, once the first engine start is done, the COPVs for this are essentially useless.
My idea is as follows:
1. Once the first engine start is done, shut off a valve between the COPV and the preburner turbine.
2. During engine burn, open a valve between the autogenous pressurisation pipelines and the COPVs.
3. Repressurise the COPVs with gaseous oxygen or methane.
4. Once at desired pressure, shut off the valve.
5. At next engine start, open the valves from the COPVs to the preburner turbine to spin up
6. Open another valve to give that initial burst of pressure to pressurise the tanks.
7. Repeat.
Just my thoughts as a lowly maintenance engineer with a fair amount of experience on hydraulic and pneumatic systems. Happy to be ignored or corrected :)
And by the way, excellent video Marcus, thanks for dropping it on a Tuesday to break up the week!
That was one of your best episodes ever - that had to be an amazing amount of research.
Thank you Clem Rock!
@@MarcusHouse Clem.... you! Rock! Spot on... I agree.
+1; it was mind blowing and I had to pause a few times.
Sorry, I know you're addressing somebody else. But the autogenous pressure system would weigh less. That's one of its major advantages. You don't need to carry extra helium or nitrogen, you can just use your fuel twice: once to keep the tanks pressurized, and once more to make the rocket go.
I keep saying it but the animations are fantastic! Keep it up!
You can thank Corey (CBass) for much of this one. Incredible work he does and it is most appreciated. Links in the description.
Yes. They keep reminding me of just how the raptor engines work and how far advanced we've come from when I was a boy and people were trying to design _liquid_ spray mixing.
Full flow has done away with all the mystery (at the expense of incredible sophistication): propellant and oxidizer are a... _gas_ ; so much simpler.
good!
4 AM in the Seattle area and I'm treated to a Marcus House video while doing my early morning work. What could be more fun?
2 Marcus House videos?🤪
You live in Seattle? I’m sorry
You are doing housework at 4am?! I’m sorry! :-D
I'm in Seattle too! But I'm unconscious at 4 am!
@@xiaoka I start work at 3:30 AM and end the day around 1 PM. That's my work shift, so I get up even earlier to get to work in Seattle.
Marcus, you have a gift of explaining complicated concepts in a way that is easy to understand, and is comprehensive at the same time. We are so thankful to have you.
Yes, good point!
Wait what!? Bonus Content? I'll take it. Thanks mate..
Well done video, thanks for taking a deep dive instead of the regular news videos!
"Just Listen to that roar of the engine ..."
- talks over the clip
Seriously though, this an excellent show. Subscribed. Thanks!
Just got off online school for lunch and I see this. Love the videos!
Ayy
I just woke up
I have online school
@@fosteragbor4545 lucky..
Just off to bed :) zzzzz
Great video Marcus, really informative, quality of your videos are getting better all the time
Wow @that shot of Space Shuttle main booster tank!
I know right! I'd never seen it before either until it was edited in.
i had not seen before
If all this was simple, another one would already done it. Finger-crossed for spacex!
Your posts always have great audio. very clear, the right volume and no visible mic. Great job.
Graphics used to show the details + context and background = the best Marcus House video. A home run!!!
On review of SN8's attempted landing, compared to that of SN9's, it wasn't that far off landing, just going a tad too fast ;) Fingers crossed for SN10 🙏🙏🙏
Still kind of hoping we'll see it this week even though static fire was aborted yesterday. Fingers crossed for today.
@@MarcusHouse I’ve learned not to keep my hopes up too high. Not because of SpaceX’s development speed, they’re doing amazing. But it’s prototype testing, and we can’t control the weather or the FAA, so I’ve learned to be realistic. It’s really easy to get caught up in the speed at which SpaceX is moving, so one must take a step back.
@@MarcusHouse Elon wouldn’t miss the chance especially now the FAA approved. SpaceX and them seem to be tight with communications.
@@jazzylev
We can’t control the FAA but SpaceX can now. They must have figured it out with them, with confirmation yesterday that they approved the SN10 launch already.
A perfect test flight is one that teaches new lessons, regardless of how many pieces it ends up in. But, of course, it's easier to learn from an intact rocket.
Cheers for the great content Marcus!
The Viking engine from the Ariane 1 through 4 used autogenous pressurisation as well, but had a stoichiometric combustion of NTO and UDMH in the preburner, which was cooled with the injection of water from a third tank. The inert exhaust meant that they could use it for pressurizing both NTO and DMH tank and use the pressurized liquid water from the water turbo pump as a hydraulic fluid. Pretty impressive for an engine developed in the 60s and 70s.
100% impressive. When taking a deeper dive into this, it is quite amazing to see the evolution from early vessels right up to the Starship, SLS, and other rockets. Long-duration missions are a different story however and that is something that will require active cooling (perhaps heat exchanging) systems to keep that pressure correct.
Must admit, this was one of your best videos yet. Like that you're going into details!
Wow!! This video is AMAZING MARCUS!! 👍🏽
The 2nd purpose of the pressurization is to "push fuel down into the bottom of the tanks".. erm, which way is down in Space? Even with gravity, surely the pressurization won't push the fuel anywhere other than through an attached header if it is already full of fuel. Great episode btw.
Look up ullage systems. They use a tiny amount of RCS to push all fluids down. Then fire the engines up.
@@MarcusHouse That's great. What devices are used for RCS to provide longitudinal force? The lunar SS has thrusters halfway up the sides of the rocket doesn't it?
Love the detail in this video, fantastic graphics to go with it .top marks, great stuff,😁😆😉🧐😇👍
Answered so many questions i had about starship operations! Top notch video dude!!
I already got chills 5 second in. That animation is incredible!!
Brilliant description Marcus. I didn’t fully understand autogenous pressurization until now! 🙏
To keep the pressure, just put a catalytic membrane between the ox and CH3 tanks. The slow burn (size dependent) would produce heat and gasses to keep both pressurized. But what if the problem in SN 9 was not pressure, but big bubbles in the supply lines to the engines? What the starship does, the others in your examples do not do, is flop down on it's side. Bubbles cause huge swings in ratios and boom, a piece of the engine goes flying out the bottom, and the engine will not light - because it is damaged. This is not an easy problem to fix.
This is a problem they've calculated in from the start and it's the reason why they use header tanks.
If there's enough pressure in them there won't be any bubbles.
@@AdelaeR That is a fallacy. As long as there is headroom in the tank, there can be bubbles. And there has to be headroom in the tank if it is pressurized with a gas. If there is no head room, the fuel cannot leave the rigid tank. As soon as the nose goes horizontal or below, fuel can flow "up" out of the feed pipes, replaced with vapor.
This is all that is keeping me going during lockdown lmao, safe to say I have an obsession with watching spacex content :)
Some incredible footage in this video. From the falling shuttle boosters to the Gemini astronaut dangling around in space, this was a visual treat as much as it was an educational one.
What a pleasant surprise! Thanks, Marcus and team!
Really Well produced show - Thanks
One of the best videos from Markus I've ever seen. Thanks, man!
Thank you for this video! I was wondering how it all worked.
Amazing production, answered so many questions I’ve had, thanks Marcus!
Those animations I could watch all day😍
The engine fuel and oxygen flow renders are superb!!! Another fantastic episode!
Marcus what a truly informative video 😁🚀😁 love watching your productions as I’m wanting to watch them the whole way through 👍🏼👍🏼keep up the gd work.
MARCUS: -- Another "Out-of-the-Park" episode! I would conclude that the "Autogenous Pressurization" method is the way to go.
Slow down your speech. Give the content time to soak.
@@matthewerwin4677 Just hit setting & adjust playback speed. I usually go with 1.25x & slow things down during the 'good' stuff. Also, content providers often have to accelerate playback to compress their points into reasonable time frames.
Great video Marcus, keep up the great work!
Loved the technical & graphics.
Great work Marcus! Love how you give credit to others. Keep it up!
Great video! Love the history including the ET separation footage.
Great vid Marcus!
A video during the week? I must be dreaming!
Keep up the incredible work
Fantastic video and dive into the autogenous pressurisation method. Best I've seen.
Great work Marcus. 👏👍
The excitement rises day by day! So ready to see her fly :D
Great video Marcus.
Ooo! Nice dive, Marcus! I really liked your step by step explanation as well as the historical remarks. It's always cool to remember that great achievements took place even at a very early stage of spaceflight, and also that current engineers can stand on developments made by those from the past, and so reach even higher! Thank you for this video!!
Had to watch this again instead of live feed to get pumped up. Thanks @marcushouse
Keep up the good work Marcus, always excited when you post a video with such great content
You explain it better than anyone else Marcus.
Hi Marcus, I have to say.. your content is improving at a rate usually only usually seen with spacex 😅 Good work! This video was great. I'm glad you are keeping your same personality through it all aswell.
I 'usually' don't use the word 'usually' that often. 😅
Very informative, thank you
Thanks, this is your best video to date!
Improving Autogenous is the key.
I had never seen that clip of the Shuttle external tank after separation... very interesting.
Super cool huh! We hadn't seen it either.
I am glad I found this channel! Solid work!
Your explanation sounds logic and professional. Thanks for sharing
yay for midweek! Really enjoyed this episode
Where would we be without that ca. 1988 all purpose synthesized BGM track? Out of all the channels that cover this material, I think this one nails it. Gives the series almost a classic Space Shuttle flavor.
Enjoyed this video Marcus.
Well done, Marcus! Thank-you.
I live in Waco and I routinely hear the rumble from Spacex testing the rockets in McGregor. Incredible video!
Brilliant video... great animations to explaining pressurization. Does seem like AP the way to go... always wondered exactly what the external pipes were for on the outside of starship and why they weren't on F9.. Had never noticed them on the shuttles fuel tank. Fascinating and thank you.
A great breakdown, thanks Marcus!!
I didn't think I was going to watch this whole video (pressurization? yawn...), but it was quite compelling. Really well done! I can't believe I ignored something so fundamental and important. I feel a whole lot more informed now, thank you!
I learned a lot from that, thank you, Marcus.
Captivated! Ended too soon! Thanks Marcus!
Awsome video! I loved to watch it and learned really much new things i didn´t know before.
Best wishes from Austria, can´t wait to see your next Video :-)
This is a fantastic look at the engineering involved and it's lineage.
Very cool insides! Thanks a lot Marcus! 👌👍😊
I love those engine renderings! My guess is they will need to move the methane header tank down a little so that it’s not directly in contact with all the liquid methane sitting above it. I suspect they are losing a bunch of heat through the top wall of the methane header tank. Or maybe they can just crank up the gas flow to compensate.
That's exactly my thoughts.
The hot gas has a one-way ticket to being absorbed into the cold liquid, removing the all important gas pressure.
The methane needs to be at its boiling point in the header tank. Perhaps some insulation around the header tanks would help and crank up the gas flow from the engines as you suggest. 👊
Thank you, The problem was good explained. I hope that autogenous pressurization systems will be used all along, so there'll be no need to get helium or nitrogen somewhere near.
Hey Hey thank you Marcus, as always awesome graphics and brilliant narration. Reminds me of the days when we waited for popular mechanics to hit the shelves.
Lovely video as always keep up the great work!
Marcus, I say get rid of the header tanks and replace them with baffles inside the CH4 and O2 tanks so that the main tanks are effectively segmented into chambers, with the aft segment having the volume which corresponds to the amount of fuel needed for the landing burn. Tanker trucks use baffles to prevent the problem of sloshing liquid causing structural damage. Baffles in the main tanks would add structural integrity, and during main engine operation, acceleration would push fuel toward the back of the rocket, and would cause the chambers to drain from one to the next, so that the aft chamber is the last chamber which contains fuel, and which would have no gas-state reactants, and therefore no sloshing problem, and no cavitation problem. Pressurize at the top/front, and draw fuel from the bottom/rear. No sloshing and no cavitation. The baffle could be sealed using a valve. We know that mechanical operations occur inside tanks, because that became an issue with Apollo 13. The only problem right now with my suggestion is that the header tanks seem to be needed at the top of the rocket right now, for balancing the weight distribution. That need is temporary. The function of the header tank, other than weight distribution, can be accomplished with a baffle and a valve which would add structural integrity without adding net weight. SpaceX should be adding dead weight at the top of the rocket anyway, rather than balancing weight distribution by putting a header tank there which will need to be moved eventually anyway. But your post was about pressurization and not about ullage wasn't it. Excuse my rant.
I like you giving us in depth information, beyond just ring stacking.
Hey Hey Marcus, thank you very much for these fantastic videos.
Wow! Thanks for this insight!
So glad to hear these things. WAY beyond what I understand but glad to know.
Very nice animations!
Very interesting content!! Thank you!!
Great engineering video, well presented 👍
classy editing well done.
:D
Great video, excellent animations...
3 and a half minutes in, already gotta say great work!!! Learned a lot and everything is really high quality!
Thanks!
Wonderful video! Thank you!
Great video. Outstanding quality.
Thank you kindly!
Absolutely awesome video!! Thanks.
Awesome video. Learned a lot. Thanks ❤️
Those renders are amazing, blender is stepping it up with simultaneous gas and fluid sim
Wow awesome video Marcus. I learnt a fair bit today,
Even though it hurts my head, but I love these engineering marvel.
Keep at it long enough and that pain in you head gets replaced with understanding. Then you can really light the fire. Hope it happens to you early enough in life to be of some use to you.
@@jcoghill2 thank you, I'm 47
wow, that was very interesting
Great video! Ive been wanting to learn about this process so much! They will land SN10 next time!
I’m an undergrad Engineering Student and watching this confirms that this is want I want to do. Cheers Marcus 👍
Marcus, you are amazing. Thanks for your awesome content.
Great video. Thanks
love the models/animations
Excellent video, answered a lot of questions. Just realised the big orange External Tank falling at 7:36 looks exactly like a Starship without flaps! Next challenge Marcus: speculations and animations about the solar power panels and/or radiators that Starship will use and how they will be deployed. 😎🤩🌞
Dang!! LOVE THE SEE THROUGH!!